Metta World Peace Has Tim Duncan As His #2 GOAT (Article)

[Thomas82]

Sometime within the last couple of days, Metta World Peace was on a podcast called "Fierce Talk" and claimed that Tim Duncan is the 2nd greatest player who ever lived (Bill Russell is his #1). Of course he got a lot of backlash from it. I couldn't find the actual podcast, but here are a couple of links below, one with an article and the other one with actual tweets in response to his opinion:

https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-tim-duncan-is-the-second-greatest-player-ever-metta-world-peace-controversially-ranks-spurs-legend-ahead-of-
https://fadeawayworld.net/2021/04/22/metta-world-peace-says-tim-duncan-is-the-second-greatest-basketball-player-that-ever-lived/

[Robz4000]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.

1a. Jordan
1b. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Tim
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Russell

[Thomas82]

Here's a related article:

https://clutchpoints.com/5-convincing-reasons-tim-duncan-doesnt-get-enough-respect-in-goat-debate/?fbclid=IwAR2UyjLM1lH03Oa1PYhvo6sGINjJPb9qrmtLpYvX cm7Ik66vciqeRiYN_Rg

[Thomas82]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.

1a. Jordan
1b. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Tim
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Russell

I personally can't put LeBron or Magic ahead of TD, but other than that I can agree on your list.

[Robz4000]

I personally can't put LeBron or Magic ahead of TD, but other than that I can agree on your list.

It's more like 4a/4b with Magic and Timmy. I give Magic the benefit of the doubt since he had to retire early.

[benefactor]

Artest has always loved Duncan tbh

[GAustex]

I miss Tim Duncan.

[RC_Drunkford]

I got Duncan at #2 right after Jordan

[Thomas82]

It's more like 4a/4b with Magic and Timmy. I give Magic the benefit of the doubt since he had to retire early.

I give TD the advantage over Magic because of his 2-way dominance, longevity, and the fact that they have the same amount of rings despite Magic having better teammates.

[Thomas82]

I got Duncan at #2 right after Jordan

That's an excellent spot for him.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

i'd rank bron-bron above timmy if he had brought 6 rings to the Land

[RC_Drunkford]

Duncan is 2-1 against LeBron in the finals
Duncan got more rings than Shaq
Duncan got more accolades than Kobe

Just off eras there's a case where you can put him ahead of Kareem, Wilt and Bill Russell. You can make a case for any top 10 player to be #1 or #2 really

[dbreiden83080]

Top 10 absolutely. Personally I get annoyed when people always put Magic and Larry ahead of Tim, because I think it’s simply nostalgia or reputation that does that. I think Tim is equal or better than both of them..

[dbreiden83080]

Duncan is 2-1 against LeBron in the finals
Duncan got more rings than Shaq
Duncan got more accolades than Kobe

Just off eras there's a case where you can put him ahead of Kareem, Wilt and Bill Russell. You can make a case for any top 10 player to be #1 or #2 really
I agree. Personally I would put LeBron reluctantly ahead of Tim simply because his longevity is absolutely amazing. 36 years of age still playing at the near peak level. Even though he has been injured this year before that he was still playing like a prime LeBron James. It’s amazing.

[Seventyniner]

If you're gonna put Russell at the top, Duncan is a logical choice for second place. MWP is at least consistent in what he values.

[Thomas82]

Top 10 absolutely. Personally I get annoyed when people always put Magic and Larry ahead of Tim, because I think it’s simply nostalgia or reputation that does that. I think Tim is equal or better than both of them..

TD was dominant on both ends of the court, Magic and Bird were not. So there's no way I can put them ahead of him.

[dbreiden83080]

TD was dominant on both ends of the court, Magic and Bird were not. So there's no way I can put them ahead of him.

I agree 100%. It pisses me off when to this day that still happens. But the 80s and that rivalry is so nostalgic for people they can’t help themselves.

[Thomas82]

I agree 100%. It pisses me off when to this day that still happens. But the 80s and that rivalry is so nostalgic for people they can’t help themselves.

And then we have people discounting TD because he only averaged 19 points per game for this career and saying that since other all-time greats have accolades offensive numbers you have to use offensive numbers to "separate the hierarchy".

[james evans]

I agree 100%. It pisses me off when to this day that still happens. But the 80s and that rivalry is so nostalgic for people they can’t help themselves.
duncan is my favorite player of all time, but we got to be serious about some of the teams he's beat in the finals. the Nets in 02, Knicks in 99, and Cavs in 07. And let's not forget 3 of Kobe's teams he beat: 01 Sixers, 02 nets, and 09 magic. These teams dont make the finals in the 80s at all and the Cavs/Magic more than likely don't even make the playoffs. I'm not saying Bird or Magic are Better than Timmy, but we got to look at these things. I also don't think Kobe is God like everyone else does. I've said this for years when he was living.. The man had Shaq for his first 3 rings and basically gave Detroit the ring in 2004 because he wanted to be selfish.

[dbreiden83080]

duncan is my favorite player of all time, but we got to be serious about some of the teams he's beat in the finals. the Nets in 02, Knicks in 99, and Cavs in 07. And let's not forget 3 of Kobe's teams he beat: 01 Sixers, 02 nets, and 09 magic. These teams dont make the finals in the 80s at all and the Cavs/Magic more than likely don't even make the playoffs. I'm not saying Bird or Magic are Better than Timmy, but we got to look at these things. I also don't think Kobe is God like everyone else does. I've said this for years when he was living.. The man had Shaq for his first 3 rings and basically gave Detroit the ring in 2004 because he wanted to be selfish.
Well you can only play who you play in your era. Magic Johnson beat some all-time great teams but he had insane levels of talent. I mean when the second best player on your team is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, holy fucking shit.

[dbreiden83080]

And then we have people discounting TD because he only averaged 19 points per game for this career and saying that since other all-time greats have accolades offensive numbers you have to use offensive numbers to "separate the hierarchy".
Tim could have won scoring titles if he was a selfish prick. Easily. He was all about the team his entire career. He basically spent the last six or seven years adapting his game to his new teammates doing whatever it took to win a championship. Tim Duncan is the greatest teammate in the history of the league.

[daboom1]

Better than Porker

[Thomas82]

Tim could have won scoring titles if he was a selfish prick. Easily. He was all about the team his entire career. He basically spent the last six or seven years adapting his game to his new teammates doing whatever it took to win a championship. Tim Duncan is the greatest teammate in the history of the league.

All facts!! TD was a basketball unicorn.

[daslicer]

Well you can only play who you play in your era. Magic Johnson beat some all-time great teams but he had insane levels of talent. I mean when the second best player on your team is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, holy fucking shit.

I was born during the 80's so I can't comment on the 80's NBA but I have heard from older fans that the West was garbage during that time period and the Lakers played a lot of cream puff teams in the playoffs before getting to the Finals. I have heard the Eastern Conference was the harder conference back then with the Celtics,Sixers,Pistons.

[daslicer]

There are only two players I feel that were definitely better than Tim which is MJ and Kareem. Outside of those 2 there is nobody else I feel is better.

[daslicer]

Tim could have won scoring titles if he was a selfish prick. Easily. He was all about the team his entire career. He basically spent the last six or seven years adapting his game to his new teammates doing whatever it took to win a championship. Tim Duncan is the greatest teammate in the history of the league.

Agreed Tim was really the type of guy that would score the least amount of points to win a game. If he felt he could win the game by scoring 10 points then he would go for 10 and if was 20 he would go for 20. Probably the most balanced player I have seen in that regard. Jokic also seems similar in that department from a scoring standpoint.

[daslicer]

Artest feeling Duncan is the second greatest player of all time doesn't really surprise me. I saw an interview he had with someone several months ago where he mentioned that after the '04 brawl he would watch a lot of games of Duncan because he looked at him as a role model. He stated that he wanted to learn how to control his anger and keep his cool and that's why he would watch a lot of Duncan's games. By watching a ton of Duncan's games I'm sure he saw the type of greatness Spur fans see in Duncan.

[Thomas82]

There are only two players I feel that were definitely better than Tim which is MJ and Kareem. Outside of those 2 there is nobody else I feel is better.

You're definitely not wrong in having that opinion. But since Tim played about 85% of his career on 1 leg, that has to be factored in too. IMO, I think that enhances his greatness.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

No one on that list could, or would, have spent their career in San Antonio and been able to win 5 titles the way Tim did.

For all of LeBron’s so-called dominance, he couldn’t win a title without a super-team put around him. No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. Hard to deny MJ’s impact on basketball, but if you look at who surrounded each of the guys when they were winning titles it’s hard to push Duncan out of the top two or three greatest of all-time.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

duncan is my favorite player of all time, but we got to be serious about some of the teams he's beat in the finals. the Nets in 02, Knicks in 99, and Cavs in 07. And let's not forget 3 of Kobe's teams he beat: 01 Sixers, 02 nets, and 09 magic. These teams dont make the finals in the 80s at all and the Cavs/Magic more than likely don't even make the playoffs. I'm not saying Bird or Magic are Better than Timmy, but we got to look at these things. I also don't think Kobe is God like everyone else does. I've said this for years when he was living.. The man had Shaq for his first 3 rings and basically gave Detroit the ring in 2004 because he wanted to be selfish.

those finals were cakewalks but getting out of the west as a meat grinder every year

[Spurtacular]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.

1a. Jordan
1b. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Tim
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Russell

Tim rang five times with the league against him.
All things equal, he would've had at least seven or eight without league interference.
Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, etc. are products of manipulation.
You're old enough to know this already.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Tim rang five times with the league against him.
All things equal, he would've had at least seven or eight without league interference.
Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, etc. are products of manipulation.
You're old enough to know this already.

Great point. He’s was never the NBA’s Golden ticket. And San Antonio certainly wasn’t either.

[james evans]

Tim rang five times with the league against him.
All things equal, he would've had at least seven or eight without league interference.
Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, etc. are products of manipulation.
You're old enough to know this already.
not only that, but an incompetent coach making dumb azz decisions during the playoffs with rotations

[Dverde]

Duncan is somewhere between 4-10 in my book. If you have Kobe ahead of him the rest of your rankings are meaningless to me.

[KobesAchilles]

Jim is already going to be replaced by KD in the top 10 once the Nets ring this year. The dude has no personality and that’s going to hurt him. There’s a lot of people that think KG was better than Jim. So this whole Jimmy Duncan is top 5 thing is funny when nobody else but Spurs fans have him so high.

[daslicer]

Jim is already going to be replaced by KD in the top 10 once the Nets ring this year. The dude has no personality and that’s going to hurt him. There’s a lot of people that think KG was better than Jim. So this whole Jimmy Duncan is top 5 thing is funny when nobody else but Spurs fans have him so high.

Lame trolling by you.

1. KD will have 3 rings if he wins this year. He's still behind in ring count 5>3. KD also still gets discredited by the media for his two rings with the Warriors. They will continue to play this game with him even after he wins his third ring this year simply because they have to sell the narrative of Lebron>KD.

2. There are a people who believe KG is better than Duncan but those people are a minority. They maybe a loud minority but they are definitely not the majority from what I have seen. I have been on other basketball message boards and have seen KG vs Duncan debates. Duncan always gets the majority of support on these forums such as realgm, redditt, etc.

3. :lol Taking shots at Duncan's personality when the majority of these guys today have the personality of a rock. KD for example comes across as a woman on PMS while Lebron sounds like a crooked politician. None of these guys have charismatic personalities compared to the past generation. The only guy I see that has it personality wise is Zion. Now if you want to say Duncan playing in a small market hurts his legacy in being remembered then you have a good point.

4. Fans on other forums constantly rate Duncan between 6-10 from what I have seen. On realgm I have seen fans constantly rate Duncan 5-8. Spurs fans rank him the highest but he's always constantly in the top 10 on other basketball forums.

5. The only people I see who disrespect Duncan tend to be his contemporaries such as Durant, Matt Barnes,Shaq. I have heard Barnes say he's not a top 10 player. Durant didn't even put him on his top 12 team. I tend to believe the disrespect comes from Duncan not being a typical black man and refusing to be part of their social cliques. In Shaq's case and other rivals it's saltiness over the rivalry they had.

[KobesAchilles]

Lame trolling by you.

1. KD will have 3 rings if he wins this year. He's still behind in ring count 5>3. KD also still gets discredited by the media for his two rings with the Warriors. They will continue to play this game with him even after he wins his third ring this year simply because they have to sell the narrative of Lebron>KD.

2. There are a people who believe KG is better than Duncan but those people are a minority. They maybe a loud minority but they are definitely not the majority from what I have seen. I have been on other basketball message boards and have seen KG vs Duncan debates. Duncan always gets the majority of support on these forums such as realgm, redditt, etc.

3. :lol Taking shots at Duncan's personality when the majority of these guys today have the personality of a rock. KD for example comes across as a woman on PMS while Lebron sounds like a crooked politician. None of these guys have charismatic personalities compared to the past generation. The only guy I see that has it personality wise is Zion. Now if you want to say Duncan playing in a small market hurts his legacy in being remembered then you have a good point.

4. Fans on other forums constantly rate Duncan between 6-10 from what I have seen. On realgm I have seen fans constantly rate Duncan 5-8. Spurs fans rank him the highest but he's always constantly in the top 10 on other basketball forums.

5. The only people I see who disrespect Duncan tend to be his contemporaries such as Durant, Matt Barnes,Shaq. I have heard Barnes say he's not a top 10 player. Durant didn't even put him on his top 12 team. I tend to believe the disrespect comes from Duncan not being a typical black man and refusing to be part of their social cliques. In Shaq's case and other rivals it's saltiness over the rivalry they had.
The Nets are going to win two rings with this group (my prediction of course so I probably will end up cursing them) before it all implodes on their ass. Superteams never last because their super egos can't take it and KD is a superbitch when it comes to this. However, he will have 4 rings and at least 3 Finals MVPS if he does win again. He will have the all nba selections, the all star selections, be a top 5 scorer of all time and people will say that he was an unstoppable 7 footer who could get you 30 a game whenever he wanted.

Duncan has many things going against him. First, he has a losing record against Kobe. I know, I know that doesn't mean anything and blah blah blah but it hurts him nonetheless. I don't know why, but Duncan is compared to Kobe instead of Shaq whom Duncan is dead even against.

Duncan is really only beloved by people that played with Duncan. While Kobe and KG have this mystic and aura around them. This shit makes zero sense but somehow Kobe was the ultimate competitor who would do whatever it took to win and KG was this fierce tough guy who is the heart and soul of a team. Somehow, Duncan was both on the Spurs and yet people don't even really mention him when it comes to competitiveness, leadership, and toughness. Idk why

Duncan is a much better defender than KD. But him not winning a DPOY means that people won't take his defense as seriously. Once again shit make no sense seeing as Marcus fucking Camby won one, but Duncan isn't seen as a great defender. KG being a better defender is the narrative and this is only being pushed now that everyone is jacking up triples. KG would do much better in today's league than Duncan. He can switch and guard 1-5. Duncan isn't as versatile.

All the players with popular podcasts and on sports shows will always show love to Kobe and Bron and KD. They won't ever say anything negative about them. Old school people will say that Duncan is better than KD. But when kids grow up only seeing KD in his prime and never witnessing Duncan in his. Hell half the fans here never saw the 99 finals where de destroyed the Knicks. And when they see all the former players talk up every player except Duncan and they look up how he didn't even average 20 points a game or win a DPOY or repeat as a champion. I'm telling you, Jim is gonna fall outta the top 10 soon.

[daslicer]

The Nets are going to win two rings with this group (my prediction of course so I probably will end up cursing them) before it all implodes on their ass. Superteams never last because their super egos can't take it and KD is a superbitch when it comes to this. However, he will have 4 rings and at least 3 Finals MVPS if he does win again. He will have the all nba selections, the all star selections, be a top 5 scorer of all time and people will say that he was an unstoppable 7 footer who could get you 30 a game whenever he wanted.

Duncan has many things going against him. First, he has a losing record against Kobe. I know, I know that doesn't mean anything and blah blah blah but it hurts him nonetheless. I don't know why, but Duncan is compared to Kobe instead of Shaq whom Duncan is dead even against.

Duncan is really only beloved by people that played with Duncan. While Kobe and KG have this mystic and aura around them. This shit makes zero sense but somehow Kobe was the ultimate competitor who would do whatever it took to win and KG was this fierce tough guy who is the heart and soul of a team. Somehow, Duncan was both on the Spurs and yet people don't even really mention him when it comes to competitiveness, leadership, and toughness. Idk why

Duncan is a much better defender than KD. But him not winning a DPOY means that people won't take his defense as seriously. Once again shit make no sense seeing as Marcus fucking Camby won one, but Duncan isn't seen as a great defender. KG being a better defender is the narrative and this is only being pushed now that everyone is jacking up triples. KG would do much better in today's league than Duncan. He can switch and guard 1-5. Duncan isn't as versatile.

All the players with popular podcasts and on sports shows will always show love to Kobe and Bron and KD. They won't ever say anything negative about them. Old school people will say that Duncan is better than KD. But when kids grow up only seeing KD in his prime and never witnessing Duncan in his. Hell half the fans here never saw the 99 finals where de destroyed the Knicks. And when they see all the former players talk up every player except Duncan and they look up how he didn't even average 20 points a game or win a DPOY or repeat as a champion. I'm telling you, Jim is gonna fall outta the top 10 soon.

He won't. Media pundits still keep him in the top 10. I can't see Durant ever passing him unless the Nets go on some miraculous 3 peat where he's winning finals MVP every year. KD still win not pass Duncan in regular season MVPS or all-time NBA selections. I have also seen Media pundits such as ESPN, and other national media outlets consistently rank Duncan ahead of Kobe and Shaq. It doesn't mean jack shit what these players say. Surprisingly the media is better in rankings than these players. Also Duncan will be in the top 10 for a very long time but I do see him getting disrespected on the regular like Kareem and Russell because he's stoic, not flashy and stays in background like those guys.

[dbreiden83080]

I was born during the 80's so I can't comment on the 80's NBA but I have heard from older fans that the West was garbage during that time period and the Lakers played a lot of cream puff teams in the playoffs before getting to the Finals. I have heard the Eastern Conference was the harder conference back then with the Celtics,Sixers,Pistons.

Beating the Celts twice in their prime with Bird, Parrish, McHale is huge. But Magic had Kareem, Worthy etc...

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I miss Tim Duncan.


I’m surprised this doesn’t have more likes.

i agree with this and not mad at Ron Artest point of view also

[Texas_Ranger]

wait. there's people that think KD's rings mean anything?

if you were starting a franchise, Tim would be a top 3 choice, easy.

[Arcadian]

A totally reasonable take. There is a strong case for Tim being as good as any player in history.

[Arcadian]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.

Lebron never did anything to solidify himself as greater than Tim. It was always going to be an uphill battle when his career got off to a slow start winning-wise, while Tim had the best start to a career of any player in history (I think he was the only player ever to be 1st team all-NBA and 1st-team all-defense for his first 8 seasons, in addition to the team success). Lebron did a lot of catching up in the second half of his career, but still not enough to pass Tim IMO.

The fact that Tim fared favorably against Lebron head-to-head just further drives it home. He got absolutely punked by the Spurs in '07 and '14, and he was very fortunate to win in '13. With a different bounce of the ball in game 6, Tim was winning FMVP at age 37.

When Tim said "this is gonna be your league soon" back in '07, he probably didn't think it was going to take another 5 years for Lebron to win his first ring. :lol It did become his league, but...not as quickly or not as decisively as some people expected.

[KobesAchilles]

He won't. Media pundits still keep him in the top 10. I can't see Durant ever passing him unless the Nets go on some miraculous 3 peat where he's winning finals MVP every year. KD still win not pass Duncan in regular season MVPS or all-time NBA selections. I have also seen Media pundits such as ESPN, and other national media outlets consistently rank Duncan ahead of Kobe and Shaq. It doesn't mean jack shit what these players say. Surprisingly the media is better in rankings than these players. Also Duncan will be in the top 10 for a very long time but I do see him getting disrespected on the regular like Kareem and Russell because he's stoic, not flashy and stays in background like those guys.
Myself I have Jimothy ranked 5th. It’s a weird list and almost everybody disagrees with it lol but I have:
1. Wilt
2. mike
3. lebron
4. jabbar
5. Jim
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Magic
10. Russell out of respect I guess

[J_Paco]

Top 10 absolutely. Personally I get annoyed when people always put Magic and Larry ahead of Tim, because I think it’s simply nostalgia or reputation that does that. I think Tim is equal or better than both of them..

Totally agree.

I think Duncan was better than both, but will never get that credit for a variety of reasons.

[james evans]

Beating the Celts twice in their prime with Bird, Parrish, McHale is huge. But Magic had Kareem, Worthy etc...
Magic, Kareem and Worth ALSO beat other teams with 4 and 5 hall of famers in the finals. And every team the Lakers beat in the 80s also were either defending or future champions(philly, boston, detroit)

[KobesAchilles]

Totally agree.

I think Duncan was better than both, but will never get that credit for a variety of reasons.
I think Magic is vastly overrated. Dude went to a team with an MVP on it and then got the #1 pick in the draft to get Worthy. He didn’t build the Lakers. Now the Lakers don’t win without him but Kareem was clearly the best player on the team during the first half of their run. But what Magic was to offense, Tim was to defense. Spurs never finished out the top 3 his first 10 years in the league defensively which is unheard of.

Bird though did it right. Played in the tougher conference. Did everything Magic could do except he could actually score the ball. Was the beat player on his team. Won 3 straight MVPs. People always say he had Parish and McHale without putting any context into it. McHale took years to become good and was pretty meh Birds first couple of years. He didn’t really get great until 84. And Parish kinda was like a super role player Draymond Green type. A good player and a necessity but not really close to a franchise player. Bird went to a team that won like 29 games and went to the ECF the next year with him. If not for injuries, Bird would’ve had a much better career. I think Tim is better myself but Bird is my 6th

[james evans]

He won't. Media pundits still keep him in the top 10. I can't see Durant ever passing him unless the Nets go on some miraculous 3 peat where he's winning finals MVP every year. KD still win not pass Duncan in regular season MVPS or all-time NBA selections. I have also seen Media pundits such as ESPN, and other national media outlets consistently rank Duncan ahead of Kobe and Shaq. It doesn't mean jack shit what these players say. Surprisingly the media is better in rankings than these players. Also Duncan will be in the top 10 for a very long time but I do see him getting disrespected on the regular like Kareem and Russell because he's stoic, not flashy and stays in background like those guys.
I don't give a shit if the Nets win the next 5 titles. No title that KD has ever won should mean anything. He did what lebron was doing with the teaming up and took it to the extreme. Can you imagine the most lethal scorer in the NBA in Bernard King joining the sixer with Moses, Dr J, Cheeks, Jones, Toney, and a rookie Barkley in the summer of 84 after they didn't defend their title? This is what KD bitchazz did

[james evans]

I think Magic is vastly overrated. Dude went to a team with an MVP on it and then got the #1 pick in the draft to get Worthy. He didn’t build the Lakers. Now the Lakers don’t win without him but Kareem was clearly the best player on the team during the first half of their run. But what Magic was to offense, Tim was to defense. Spurs never finished out the top 3 his first 10 years in the league defensively which is unheard of.

Bird though did it right. Played in the tougher conference. Did everything Magic could do except he could actually score the ball. Was the beat player on his team. Won 3 straight MVPs. People always say he had Parish and McHale without putting any context into it. McHale took years to become good and was pretty meh Birds first couple of years. He didn’t really get great until 84. And Parish kinda was like a super role player Draymond Green type. A good player and a necessity but not really close to a franchise player. Bird went to a team that won like 29 games and went to the ECF the next year with him. If not for injuries, Bird would’ve had a much better career. I think Tim is better myself but Bird is my 6th
yeah, but Magic in a way is underrated. Even though the bulls in 91 beat the lakers 4-1, don't let that series fool you on how the games went. There were only 2 blowouts in game 2 and 4. Pippen fouled out of game 3 and the bulls won in overtime and Magic , without Worth and Scott, pushed them til the end in game 5. This was with a rookie Elden Campbell as his next best player going against a dead in his prime Jordan, Pippen reaching his peak and Grant. All of this with Paxson shooting lights out in game 5. So I think we underrate Magic a lot. Add in that the media God Jordan could do absolutely nothing with him that series Phil Switched pippen on him, whom fouled out in game 3 and couldn't slow him down either. And this was Magic at 31 going on 32 back in an era that 32 was considered "old". I wish the dick riders on ESPN explained stuff like this more to the public.

[KobesAchilles]

yeah, but Magic in a way is underrated. Even though the bulls in 91 beat the lakers 4-1, don't let that series fool you on how the games went. There were only 2 blowouts in game 2 and 4. Pippen fouled out of game 3 and the bulls won in overtime and Magic , without Worth and Scott, pushed them til the end in game 5. This was with a rookie Elden Campbell as his next best player going against a dead in his prime Jordan, Pippen reaching his peak and Grant. All of this with Paxson shooting lights out in game 5. So I think we underrate Magic a lot. Add in that the media God Jordan could do absolutely nothing with him that series Phil Switched pippen on him, whom fouled out in game 3 and couldn't slow him down either. And this was Magic at 31 going on 32 back in an era that 32 was considered "old". I wish the dick riders on ESPN explained stuff like this more to the public.
To me that was his best year. He took a pretty average team to the finals and it was hella impressive. However 91 was the weakest year for the west. No real powerhouses except Portland.But I wonder how much that was bc his body was rested from missing the previous year and a half. Ironically, HIV took his dedication to basketball to a whole new level. I never saw him more motivated than that year.

Yeah Mike got a lot of whistles but so did magic. Dude got call after call against the Spurs in 83. He was 6 foot 9 and a foot taller than Moore yet couldn’t be touched by anyone without getting a call. So the fact that he was
hacked by Pippen doesn’t mean shit to me

[daslicer]

I don't give a shit if the Nets win the next 5 titles. No title that KD has ever one should mean anything. He did what lebron was doing with the teaming up and took it to the extreme. Can you imagine the most lethal scorer in the NBA in Bernard King joining the sixer with Moses, Dr J, Cheeks, Jones, Toney, and a rookie Barkley in the summer of 84 after they didn't defend their title? This is what KD bitchazz did

I agree with you.

[Thomas82]

No one on that list could, or would, have spent their career in San Antonio and been able to win 5 titles the way Tim did.

For all of LeBron’s so-called dominance, he couldn’t win a title without a super-team put around him. No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. Hard to deny MJ’s impact on basketball, but if you look at who surrounded each of the guys when they were winning titles it’s hard to push Duncan out of the top two or three greatest of all-time.

All facts!!

[RC_Drunkford]

Magic never had HIV. He just got pressed by the gay mafia to say he had it so people stop viewing it as a disease that only faggots got

[james evans]

No one on that list could, or would, have spent their career in San Antonio and been able to win 5 titles the way Tim did.

For all of LeBron’s so-called dominance, he couldn’t win a title without a super-team put around him. No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. Hard to deny MJ’s impact on basketball, but if you look at who surrounded each of the guys when they were winning titles it’s hard to push Duncan out of the top two or three greatest of all-time.
I've always said, that Jordan is not winning a title or coming out of the west with that 2003 spurs squad in place of Duncan and he's not winning with that 94 Houston squad either. I don't give a damn what espn says

[james evans]

Magic never had HIV. He just got pressed by the gay mafia to say he had it so people stop viewing it as a disease that only faggots got
It's hard to argue this. That man has been living for 30 years with HIV and he's putting on weight like a mf. Shit is bullshit

[Thomas82]

Lebron never did anything to solidify himself as greater than Tim. It was always going to be an uphill battle when his career got off to a slow start winning-wise, while Tim had the best start to a career of any player in history (I think he was the only player ever to be 1st team all-NBA and 1st-team all-defense for his first 8 seasons, in addition to the team success). Lebron did a lot of catching up in the second half of his career, but still not enough to pass Tim IMO.

The fact that Tim fared favorably against Lebron head-to-head just further drives it home. He got absolutely punked by the Spurs in '07 and '14, and he was very fortunate to win in '13. With a different bounce of the ball in game 6, Tim was winning FMVP at age 37.

When Tim said "this is gonna be your league soon" back in '07, he probably didn't think it was going to take another 5 years for Lebron to win his first ring. :lol It did become his league, but...not as quickly or not as decisively as some people expected.

With some help from the league.

[lefty]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.


Duncan won titles without a Pippen caliber player, and the WCF was a bloodbath - much better than the East during Jordan's career
Also lol at Magic over Bird

[lefty]

No one on that list could, or would, have spent their career in San Antonio and been able to win 5 titles the way Tim did.

For all of LeBron’s so-called dominance, he couldn’t win a title without a super-team put around him. No one has done more with less than Tim Duncan. Hard to deny MJ’s impact on basketball, but if you look at who surrounded each of the guys when they were winning titles it’s hard to push Duncan out of the top two or three greatest of all-time.

[lefty]

However 91 was the weakest year for the west. No real powerhouses except Portland.But I wonder how much that was bc his body was rested from missing the previous year and a half. Ironically, HIV took his dedication to basketball to a whole new level. I never saw him more motivated than that year.


He missed the previous year and a half?
He lost in the West Semis against Phoenix in 1990 and played 79 games in the 90-91 regular season
And the HIV diagnosis came after the 1991 Finals

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

TOSB Duncan dominates 23-year-old Demarcus Cousins

rVVaMEHmvAE

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

TOSB Duncan just taking it to the young fellow with smarts, physicality, talent, know-how etc. all facets of the game in those 8 minutes. defense, blocks, boards, steals, passing, scoring, positioning

[KobesAchilles]

He missed the previous year and a half?
He lost in the West Semis against Phoenix in 1990 and played 79 games in the 90-91 regular season
And the HIV diagnosis came after the 1991 Finals
Oh shit! You are right. I got my years mixed up. My bad. I was thinking the olympics in 92 for some stupid reason

[james evans]

Duncan won titles without a Pippen caliber player, and the WCF was a bloodbath - much better than the East during Jordan's career
Also lol at Magic over Bird
and as I've stated for years, Jordan isn't winning a title with the 2003 spurs in place of Duncan. It's just not happening. he's not coming out of the west. I don't care which year of Jordan you're talking about

[james evans]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.

1a. Jordan
1b. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Tim
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Russell
I'm an NBA historian. When I say I studied the NBA and it's history, I studied the entire history dating back to the 1st title in 47. When I'm talking to people in person, without a phone looking up stats, I can instantly tell them who won every championships, every finals mvp since 69(first year), matchups and how the league has promoted and overrated several players. Since the late 90s, I always said that Jordan had an easier job than pippen. Jordan didn't play any serious defense in the playoffs since 1992 guarding Clyde in the finals. Jordan was "hid" on defense and allowed to save all of his energy for offense. I would say this shit for years and years and people thought i was crazy and said I was "hating". Well, Phil Jackson is an author of many books, and one in particular he mentions this. In Eleven Rings, he states that the bulls didn't protect BJ in the 95 expansion draft because they wanted to continue with Harper because he's longer and can defend multiple positions. This allows Jordan to save his energy for offense. PHIL SAID IT!!!!!! Scottie facilitated, guarded better offensive players, rebounded, and was the 2nd option.. All jordan had to do was score his 30-40+ every game and get credit for everything on the court. Phil was a fucking genius. I knew this before the Last Dance. Had Jordan continued to play like he did from 87-89, he would have been wore out. Add in that he took almost 2 years off in his first retirement. Everyone talk about how physical the 80s and 90s were, but the 50s-70s were far worse. Knocking a player's teeth out was a regular foul. Most of the players back then had false teeth.

[KobesAchilles]

and as I've stated for years, Jordan isn't winning a title with the 2003 spurs in place of Duncan. It's just not happening. he's not coming out of the west. I don't care which year of Jordan you're talking about
It's kinda a weird statement bc you wouldn't build around Tim like you would Mike. I agree with what you're saying but if we are just going by weak cast then the 98 team for Jordan was very weak. Pippen was a shell of himself and hurt. Rodman checked out and ran away from the team. Mike didn't really have a second star that year. The Bulls supporting cast was better than the 03 Spurs supporting cast but not by as great a margin as you think.

[james evans]

It's kinda a weird statement bc you wouldn't build around Tim like you would Mike. I agree with what you're saying but if we are just going by weak cast then the 98 team for Jordan was very weak. Pippen was a shell of himself and hurt. Rodman checked out and ran away from the team. Mike didn't really have a second star that year. The Bulls supporting cast was better than the 03 Spurs supporting cast but not by as great a margin as you think.
this is true, but then again, they beat a bunch of teams that never won anything before or after them. And let's not act like the NBA made jordan untouchable. A guy of his status and skill should not require any help from the officials. And they weren't even trying to hid it. . It's what the NBA does. The NBA is the only sports league of the big 3 in which you're fined for criticizing officials. It's also the ONLY sports league in which we know multiple officials and which teams to bet against when they are officiating. Joey Crawford hated the spurs. Dan Crawford hated the Mavs, Bavetta and Joe Crawford were always brought in to extend series. If a team were up 2-0, once you saw that Joe Crawford was the official for game 3 you should bet on the team that was down. The NBA been fixing series. 2012 should have been us vs the Celtics, but Stern was not gonna let that happen. We all know what happened in the 2nd half of game 6 of the WCF and there was no way Boston would beat the heat. In game 7, Lebron shot more freethrows than the whole Celtics squad combined. They don't even try to hide it. And then you have commentators telling us, we're not seeing what we see..

[KobesAchilles]

this is true, but then again, they beat a bunch of teams that never won anything before or after them. And let's not act like the NBA made jordan untouchable. A guy of his status and skill should not require any help from the officials. And they weren't even trying to hid it. . It's what the NBA does. The NBA is the only sports league of the big 3 in which you're fined for criticizing officials. It's also the ONLY sports league in which we know multiple officials and which teams to bet against when they are officiating. Joey Crawford hated the spurs. Dan Crawford hated the Mavs, Bavetta and Joe Crawford were always brought in to extend series. If a team were up 2-0, once you saw that Joe Crawford was the official for game 3 you should bet on the team that was down. The NBA been fixing series. 2012 should have been us vs the Celtics, but Stern was not gonna let that happen. We all know what happened in the 2nd half of game 6 of the WCF and there was no way Boston would beat the heat. In game 7, Lebron shot more freethrows than the whole Celtics squad combined. They don't even try to hide it. And then you have commentators telling us, we're not seeing what we see..
Oh man don't even talk to me about the league bs about fixing games and series. I'm all aboard that train. Fisher's miracle .4 shot shouldn't have ever counted by the NBA's own rules that year. They said the most a player could do in.4 seconds was catch and shoot. But fisher got to TURN, catch, and shoot. That right there is already against the rules but Stern loved it and literally changed the rule the next year to a player can turn, catch, and shoot in .4 seconds to cover his ass :lol

Kobe busted open Bibby's nose. Foul on Bibby. Portland was outshot on the foul line by like 20 in 2000. The Kings by 27 in 2002. Magic couldn't be touched. Mike couldn't be touched. They invented the flagrant foul bc he whined so much. Stern said he wanted Lakers vs Lakers in the finals. Fisher fouled Barry. Duncan fouled out by Dirk stepping on his foot in 06. Wade shot 97 free throws in 6 games. It's WWE in the NBA

[james evans]

That .4 shit still pisses me off. Fisher caught the ball, turned around and faded away in .4 seconds. It's crazy.

[lefty]

Oh man don't even talk to me about the league bs about fixing games and series. I'm all aboard that train. Fisher's miracle .4 shot shouldn't have ever counted by the NBA's own rules that year. They said the most a player could do in.4 seconds was catch and shoot. But fisher got to TURN, catch, and shoot. That right there is already against the rules but Stern loved it and literally changed the rule the next year to a player can turn, catch, and shoot in .4 seconds to cover his ass :lol

Kobe busted open Bibby's nose. Foul on Bibby. Portland was outshot on the foul line by like 20 in 2000. The Kings by 27 in 2002. Magic couldn't be touched. Mike couldn't be touched. They invented the flagrant foul bc he whined so much. Stern said he wanted Lakers vs Lakers in the finals. Fisher fouled Barry. Duncan fouled out by Dirk stepping on his foot in 06. Wade shot 97 free throws in 6 games. It's WWE in the NBA

We can write a book about the whole thing lol

The Laimbeer phamtom foul on Kareem in 88

1992 Finals : Drexler wasn’t allowed to guard Jordan, especially in the first 2 games, a lot of imaginary and 1s and shooting fouls
If you watch highlights of MJ vs Clyde pre-summer of 1990 (before Stern decide to make Baldy untouchable) you will see it was another story when Clyde was allowed to D him up

1993 was juicy too :

- ECF game 5, and I’m not talking about the Charles Smith play I don’t think he was fouled, but the whole night Jordan was bailed out by the referees
- in the middle of the Conference Finals, NBC aired an NBA Finals promo featuring Jordan vs Barkley
- And for good measure, the league made sure that matchup happened, in game 7 the Suns shot 64 FT’s :lol while also fouling out Eddie Johnson who was red hot that night and other key Sonics

- 2001 : The Bucks were robbed in the ECF, Stern wanted AI vs Kobe, Sixers vs Lakers
Milwaukee was so good that year, and they beat the Lakers soundly in the regular season that year

[james evans]

We can write a book about the whole thing lol

The Laimbeer phamtom foul on Kareem in 88

1992 Finals : Drexler wasn’t allowed to guard Jordan, especially in the first 2 games, a lot of imaginary and 1s and shooting fouls
If you watch highlights of MJ vs Clyde pre-summer of 1990 (before Stern decide to make Baldy untouchable) you will see it was another story when Clyde was allowed to D him up

1993 was juicy too :

- ECF game 5, and I’m not talking about the Charles Smith play I don’t think he was fouled, but the whole night Jordan was bailed out by the referees
- in the middle of the Conference Finals, NBC aired an NBA Finals promo featuring Jordan vs Barkley
- And for good measure, the league made sure that matchup happened, in game 7 the Suns shot 64 FT’s :lol while also fouling out Eddie Johnson who was red hot that night and other key Sonics

- 2001 : The Bucks were robbed in the ECF, Stern wanted AI vs Kobe, Sixers vs Lakers
Milwaukee was so good that year, and they beat the Lakers soundly in the regular season that year
absolutely everything you stated is correct. After game 2 and Jordan playing like shit in the ECF, Stern made sure the knicks didn't win another game. And that game 7 of Seattle against the suns was a goddamn disgrace. Also, there was just shady officiating all around in that 92 finals. But jordan was Stern's guy. Tim Donaghy wasn't lying about shit in his book. if he was lying, then he could have been sued by the NBA and Bavetta, whom he accused of trying to fix a game against the Spurs when they played the Nuggets. No one sued him because he isn't lying. I'd say the 2013 finals was well officiated. Even though we loss, thanks to Popovich and Ginobili throwing the series, we weren't cheated.

here is a fun fact for you.. That infamous game in which Jordan and reggie miller fought, only Miller was ejected. The league only suspended jordan later when the Pacers made a stink about it in the media. haha. Imagine that.. 2 guys are fighting in an NBA game, but the one who started it is allowed to remain in the game.

[lefty]

absolutely everything you stated is correct. After game 2 and Jordan playing like shit in the ECF, Stern made sure the knicks didn't win another game. And that game 7 of Seattle against the suns was a goddamn disgrace. Also, there was just shady officiating all around in that 92 finals. But jordan was Stern's guy. Tim Donaghy wasn't lying about shit in his book. if he was lying, then he could have been sued by the NBA and Bavetta, whom he accused of trying to fix a game against the Spurs when they played the Nuggets. No one sued him because he isn't lying. I'd say the 2013 finals was well officiated. Even though we loss, thanks to Popovich and Ginobili throwing the series, we weren't cheated.
Stern’s 1st season as a commish : 84 Finals, Lakers are gifted game 6 because Stern knew game 7 would be must see TV

[lefty]

Oh shit! You are right. I got my years mixed up. My bad. I was thinking the olympics in 92 for some stupid reason

:bobo

[Sugus]

absolutely everything you stated is correct. After game 2 and Jordan playing like shit in the ECF, Stern made sure the knicks didn't win another game. And that game 7 of Seattle against the suns was a goddamn disgrace. Also, there was just shady officiating all around in that 92 finals. But jordan was Stern's guy. Tim Donaghy wasn't lying about shit in his book. if he was lying, then he could have been sued by the NBA and Bavetta, whom he accused of trying to fix a game against the Spurs when they played the Nuggets. No one sued him because he isn't lying. I'd say the 2013 finals was well officiated. Even though we loss, thanks to Popovich and Ginobili throwing the series, we weren't cheated.

here is a fun fact for you.. That infamous game in which Jordan and reggie miller fought, only Miller was ejected. The league only suspended jordan later when the Pacers made a stink about it in the media. haha. Imagine that.. 2 guys are fighting in an NBA game, but the one who started it is allowed to remain in the game.

Sorry to butt in, and I'm not disproving anything else that you've written, but the part I bolded about the sue - yeah, it doesn't work like that at all. It's not that "telling the truth" gives you any kind of immunity against being sued, nor that the NBA/Stern/whomever wouldn't sue someone defaming their product simply because, deep down, they know it was true. It's simply a case of reverse-Barbra Streissand effect: if they'd sued, regardless of who won the lawsuit (if it didn't come to an off-court settlement like these cases usually go), the case would've garnered huge publicity and media attention, especially in the wake of Donaghy's betting coming to light. It would've jeopardized the entire credibility of the NBA, let alone Stern as a commish and the ref association as a whole.

By not doing anything about Donaghy's book and declarations/accusations, they were able to let it fly relatively under the radar for the casual & mainstream public, except for the obvious portion of hardcore NBA fans that would've always known the truth anyways. Donaghy's reputation was already in the drain and it's simply much easier to attack his credibility by not doing a single thing about what he says, exactly so casuals would assume that "if it were true, the NBA would've done something to shut him up/punish him!!".

[Rummpd]

Actually agree with a lot of the reactions I saw tbh. Love Timmy, but he isn't on the same level as Jordan or Lebron. He's right around 5 imo.

1a. Jordan
1b. Lebron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Tim
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Russell

BS he is far better than Queen stat PED enhanced James who is 4-6 in finals despite choosing teams.

[GreekSpursfan]

People here disrespecting Manu and Tony, ridiculous. I'm one of the biggest Timmy fan but there is no way he's top 2 player ever. His bball IQ is top 2 but not overall, MWP needs to be drug tested tbh.

[Thomas82]

People here disrespecting Manu and Tony, ridiculous. I'm one of the biggest Timmy fan but there is no way he's top 2 player ever. His bball IQ is top 2 but not overall, MWP needs to be drug tested tbh.

MWP has Bill Russell as his #1. Like Seventyniner said, if nothing else, MWP is consistent with what he values.

[lefty]

MWP has Bill Russell as his #1. Like Seventyniner said, if nothing else, MWP is consistent with what he values.