Grades: Spurs @ Pelicans - Apr. 24, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-new-orleans-pelicans-game-59/

[Mr. Body]

Just can't ever give White an A+ can ya

[tbdog]

DDR down the stretched must have had the haters seething. White is the Spurs starting point guard. Murray is the odd one out this off season. Zion beasting must show that the Spurs desperately need a PF. Luka getting minutes over Lyle's in this game to give him a different look is a good move.

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades! A really good win!

[tim_duncan_fan]

We are better the more Derrick White shoots/controls the offense. It is tiresome that he and his coach have not stumbled onto that fact yet.

[GAustex]

I thought Murray mostly guarded Ball and not Ingram.
Yeah Tbdog DDR was the difference this game.
Pelicans should be better.

[ElNono]

Clutch DDR... haters take note...

[duncan2k5]

DDR down the stretched must have had the haters seething. White is the Spurs starting point guard. Murray is the odd one out this off season. Zion beasting must show that the Spurs desperately need a PF. Luka getting minutes over Lyle's in this game to give him a different look is a good move.

So many things wrong with this post...
1. No one thinks DeMar will never ever have a good game down the stretch...but we do think it always happens vs the bottom dwellers of the NBA in meaningless games...not sure if u notice...but we r missing the playoffs again

2. Murray has been super consistent and by far the better starting PG this season...White has been putrid all year...now he has had 3 or 4 good games and suddenly he deserves the starting spot and Murray is the odd man out for the season?? What games have u been watching?

[duncan2k5]

We are better the more Derrick White shoots/controls the offense. It is tiresome that he and his coach have not stumbled onto that fact yet.

I will stand by the fact that Murray has a higher ceiling than white...this season Murray has a higher PER... Scores the same amount of points while shooting a significantly higher FG% than white... Gets significantly more rebounds and assists while turning the ball over at the same rate as white... All while being 2 years younger...

Spurstalk has this weird obsession with White and constantly keeps Murray on a short leash... White is shooting 40% for the season... He has been putrid... But the moment he puts together the tiniest streak of good games, ALL of Murray's great games this season goes out the window

[tim_duncan_fan]

When White has it going, things flow better. The stilted, janky offense we've seen for the large part of this season makes me want to kill myself. Lol

[tbdog]

So many things wrong with this post...
1. No one thinks DeMar will never ever have a good game down the stretch...but we do think it always happens vs the bottom dwellers of the NBA in meaningless games...not sure if u notice...but we r missing the playoffs again

2. Murray has been super consistent and by far the better starting PG this season...White has been putrid all year...now he has had 3 or 4 good games and suddenly he deserves the starting spot and Murray is the odd man out for the season?? What games have u been watching?

Here we go. You have confirmation bias. Statistically, DDR is one of the better clutch players in the league.

White's TS% is actually higher than Murray, despite Murray having a good consistent season and White having a slow start. Murray's role is slowly changing. White is playing the point more now and the results is better pace. Spurs OTRg has jumped up higher in April since then too that supports the eye test.

[PhantomDashCam]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, love the DJ and D White backcourt. It is showing it can work. They don’t have to be in competition with one another. Both are terrific “combo” guards who can (and have) taken turns dominating periods of play throughout the season. They are starting to figure it out together ie. how to play with/without the ball, which can only mean goods things going forward for Spurs fans.

For my money, along with Poeltl; you have 3 of the top 5 defenders league wide at their positions too, no hyperbole.

The pairing should be celebrated for their unique qualities and merits rather than criticised by a personal subjective outlook.

[tbdog]

https://twitter.com/JMcDonald_SAEN/status/1386158165163532292?s=20


https://twitter.com/JMcDonald_SAEN/status/1386158165163532292?s=20

[Dejounte]

Here we go. You have confirmation bias. Statistically, DDR is one of the better clutch players in the league.

White's TS% is actually higher than Murray, despite Murray having a good consistent season and White having a slow start. Murray's role is slowly changing. White is playing the point more now and the results is better pace. Spurs OTRg has jumped up higher in April since then too that supports the eye test.

Share the stat that you're seeing and let's breakdown the context together.

Because from what I see, he's one of the WORST players in the league in a group of players with high USG% in the clutch:

https://i.ibb.co/VYpdCWv/demar-clutch.png

[tbdog]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, love the DJ and D White backcourt. It is showing it can work. They don’t have to be in competition with one another. Both are terrific “combo” guards who can (and have) taken turns dominating periods of play throughout the season. They are starting to figure it out together ie. how to play with/without the ball, which can only mean goods things going forward for Spurs fans.

For my money, along with Poeltl; you have 3 of the top 5 defenders league wide at their positions too, no hyperbole.

The pairing should be celebrated for their unique qualities and merits rather than criticised by a personal subjective outlook.

I disagree. The only way that backcourt works is if our center shoots 3's like Brook Lopez and if DDR is out for a deadeye.

[Dejounte]

https://i.ibb.co/st2Zvz0/demar-clutch-2.png

Another stat that shows DeMar is one of the worst players in the clutch with minimum FGA > 1.7

[duncan2150]

Share the stat that you're seeing and let's breakdown the context together.

Because from what I see, he's one of the WORST players in the league in a group of players with high USG% in the clutch:

https://i.ibb.co/VYpdCWv/demar-clutch.png


You just have to watch the game and you see that he's clutch in a lot of spurs games.
I saw in nba.com that he's 10 in ppg in the clutch for example....

[tbdog]

Share the stat that you're seeing and let's breakdown the context together.

Because from what I see, he's one of the WORST players in the league in a group of players with high USG% in the clutch:

>

Cherry picker

https://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/ssnPlayerSplit.php

[duncan2150]

https://i.ibb.co/st2Zvz0/demar-clutch-2.png

Another stat that shows DeMar is one of the worst players in the clutch with minimum FGA > 1.7


https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1

Forget Achiuwa who had one game in the clutch, plus you have murray and gilgeous alexander who are doing it in less games than Derozan.

[Dejounte]

Cherry picker

https://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/ssnPlayerSplit.php

Tell me how the stats were cherry picked?

Do you agree that there is such a thing as a clutch defensive play? I.E., Player X blocks Player Z's game winning shot?

That's what Net Rating and +/- signify. What use is it if DeMar scores points in the clutch if he gives up easy 3's on the other end? He is basically a non-factor on defense.

Did you bother sorting your own stat?

DeMar is one of the worst according to the link you provided:
https://i.ibb.co/kGcSjNK/demar-clutch-3.png

[duncan2150]

Tell me how the stats were cherry picked?

Do you agree that there is such a thing as a clutch defensive play? I.E., Player X blocks Player Z's game winning shot?

That's what Net Rating and +/- signify. What use is it if DeMar scores points in the clutch if he gives up easy 3's on the other end? He is basically a non-factor on defense.

Did you bother sorting your own stat?

DeMar is one of the worst according to the link you provided:
https://i.ibb.co/kGcSjNK/demar-clutch-3.png

Man you just turn it the way you want, we gave you links where you see that he's not on of the worst and just seeing games you would know that's a lie. We could have a lot of critics on Derozan but clutch time is not one of them.

If you're 10 in all the NBA in point per game in the clutch, you just could not be one of the worst...

[Dejounte]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1

Forget Achiuwa who had one game in the clutch, plus you have murray and gilgeous alexander who are doing it in less games than Derozan.

You can filter out the players with small sample size if you click "Advanced Filters".

[Dejounte]

Man you just turn it the way you want, we gave you links where you see that he's not on of the worst and just seeing games you would know that's a lie. We could have a lot of critics on Derozan but clutch time is not one of them.

If you're 10 in all the NBA in point per game in the clutch, you just could not be one of the worst...

Bro, how am I turning it the way I want? I'm simply reading the definition of each column. If you hover your mouse, you'll learn what each stat means. It's important to know what each stat means.

I've watched every game this season. You can score 10 points when the ball is in your hand for nearly every possession in the clutch.

I get that you're a fan of DeMar. I'm simply looking the stats in context. You can disagree if you want to disagree.

[duncan2150]

Bro, how am I turning it the way I want? I'm simply reading the definition of each column. If you hover your mouse, you'll learn what each stat means. It's important to know what each stat means.

I've watched every game this season.

So we have some stats showing he is bad and others he is very good. It depends on what we want to analyze in the clutch, if it's scoring he's really good. That's the part i talked about.

[tbdog]

I just linked a more accurate, more advance clutch shooting website. Or you can cherry pick where Rozier or Devonte Graham are the giants. Your choice

[Dejounte]

I just linked a more accurate, more advance clutch shooting website. Or you can cherry pick where Rozier or Devonte Graham are the giants. Your choice

I used your link, and sorted it correctly for you. It was your choice by sorting it by "most field goals attempted" as if that was supposed to prove any kind of point about how clutch DeMar is. Do you know how these stats work?

[R. DeMurre]

DeRozan played very well in this game, and yes, he was clutch in the 4th. Kudos to him for a great game. But he's still the same player-- this doesn't change what a solid decade of metrics in the regular season and in the playoffs say about him.

[John B]

Thanks for the grades. If making the FT’s was the difference, and Eubanks was 6-9, then his grade should be more than C-

[PhantomDashCam]

I disagree. The only way that backcourt works is if our center shoots 3's like Brook Lopez and if DDR is out for a deadeye.

For the month of April, DJ 40%, D White 37%, KJ 38% from 3. It’s a 12-14 game sample size. I think that’s encouraging.

I think we need a starting 4 personally (maybe addressed in FA or Luka’s development), Poeltl is clearly entrenched as the starting 5 going forward. Guy is a defensive stud.

[duncan2k5]

Here we go. You have confirmation bias. Statistically, DDR is one of the better clutch players in the league.

White's TS% is actually higher than Murray, despite Murray having a good consistent season and White having a slow start. Murray's role is slowly changing. White is playing the point more now and the results is better pace. Spurs OTRg has jumped up higher in April since then too that supports the eye test.

Fam...we literally have an ENTIRE career's worth of evidence that DeMar does NOT get it done in big games...Spurstalk didn't give him the Defrozen name...he had that name forever... statistically clutch on a losing team? What does that tell u? What's that worth?

[tbdog]

Fam...we literally have an ENTIRE career's worth of evidence that DeMar does NOT get it done in big games...Spurstalk didn't give him the Defrozen name...he had that name forever... statistically clutch on a losing team? What does that tell u? What's that worth?

Because he gets compared to the best players in the league at the time. I get that he likely to be somewhere between 25 to 45 best players in the league. Players like George have a poor rep for shrinking too and he has been a Robin for sometime without success.

[tbdog]

For the month of April, DJ 40%, D White 37%, KJ 38% from 3. It’s a 12-14 game sample size. I think that’s encouraging.

I think we need a starting 4 personally (maybe addressed in FA or Luka’s development), Poeltl is clearly entrenched as the starting 5 going forward. Guy is a defensive stud.

It's the number of shots they take. Only White takes them at a large clip. I want the backcourt to work but I don't see it happening. They are also the Spurs best trade chips.

[duncan2k5]

Here we go. You have confirmation bias. Statistically, DDR is one of the better clutch players in the league.

White's TS% is actually higher than Murray, despite Murray having a good consistent season and White having a slow start. Murray's role is slowly changing. White is playing the point more now and the results is better pace. Spurs OTRg has jumped up higher in April since then too that supports the eye test.

Secondly...yes his TS is higher, but that's pretty much the only star that is...Murray is higher is almost everything else, including PER...

And the Spurs actually had their highest offensive rating when Murray was playing his best during the months of December and January...no coincidence those months we were actually winning...White has had like 4 good games recently and that's what it gonna hang ur hat on? Despite everything pointing to Murray having a better impact on the team? Simply because white LOOKS better doing it? Ok

[duncan2k5]

Tell me how the stats were cherry picked?

Do you agree that there is such a thing as a clutch defensive play? I.E., Player X blocks Player Z's game winning shot?

That's what Net Rating and +/- signify. What use is it if DeMar scores points in the clutch if he gives up easy 3's on the other end? He is basically a non-factor on defense.

Did you bother sorting your own stat?

DeMar is one of the worst according to the link you provided:
https://i.ibb.co/kGcSjNK/demar-clutch-3.png
Ur KILLING him Dejounte...lol...good work

[GAustex]

Would love to see Murray become a high scoring 2 guard. He has to be come a better and more prolific 3 point shooter. He ain’t no PG.
it would be better too if White improved but for sure he is better than DJM with the ball in his hands.

[Mugen]

Luka gets a great And-1 dunk. He commits a dumb reach in foul on the other end and is subsequently benched for the rest of the game and probably the next 3-4 games....

Just some masterful stuff from Pop, this is the kinda awesome stuff we missed from HoF coach. Because this style worked for Tony Parker! why couldnt it work for a completely different player/person. Get 'em Gregg!

[tbdog]

Ur KILLING him Dejounte...lol...good work

Except he is choosing random stats to suit his argument rather than looking at it all. He is confirming his bias over and over in anything anti Spurs.

[Dejounte]

Except he is choosing random stats to suit his argument rather than looking at it all. He is confirming his bias over and over in anything anti Spurs.

You hear that, y'all? I'm "anti-Spurs". :lmao

You're not coming back with a legitimate argument against the way I'm presenting the stats. When you have a real rebuttal backed with facts and data, come back to me. There's not a productive conversation to be had when all you do is act dismissive.

[TD 21]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, love the DJ and D White backcourt. It is showing it can work. They don’t have to be in competition with one another. Both are terrific “combo” guards who can (and have) taken turns dominating periods of play throughout the season. They are starting to figure it out together ie. how to play with/without the ball, which can only mean goods things going forward for Spurs fans.

For my money, along with Poeltl; you have 3 of the top 5 defenders league wide at their positions too, no hyperbole.

The pairing should be celebrated for their unique qualities and merits rather than criticised by a personal subjective outlook.

They're not nearly a dynamic enough tandem offensively, which means two things need to occur for them to work . . .

1) The Spurs need to find a wing/big centerpiece to orient the offense around (both of which are harder to do).

2) Murray, in particular, needs to show significant improvement from 3.

[LeBowen]

They're not nearly a dynamic enough tandem offensively, which means two things need to occur for them to work . . .

1) The Spurs need to find a wing/big centerpiece to orient the offense around (both of which are harder to do).

2) Murray, in particular, needs to show significant improvement from 3.

They'd be fine if we had two legit 3pt shooting wings.
They're not fine if we have Keldon and Demar next to them.

[GAustex]

They'd be fine if we had two legit 3pt shooting wings.
They're not fine if we have Keldon and Demar next to them.
If DDR goes
Johnson goes to SF and needs to shoot better and be more influential
Use DDR $$$ along with hopefully Patty $$$ and Gay $$$ to get a backup SF who can shoot and a PF who can start and defend and shoot.
Let this PF and Luka duke if out for minutes
The young guards ALL need to up their game DW, DJM, LW, Vassel
Easier said than done

[EasyMoney]

Remember when derrick white started to be hated? Ahh, good old days.

[Leetonidas]

White needs to be the one running the sets going forward. I like Murray but he does not control the game and pace like White can and frequently calls his own number too much. Spurs would probably be better served trading him while his value is high

[spurraider21]

White needs to be the one running the sets going forward. I like Murray but he does not control the game and pace like White can and frequently calls his own number too much. Spurs would probably be better served trading him while his value is high
Doesn’t have to be one or the other. They can coexist. And could use both post demar

[Dejounte]

It's like it's engrained in the Spurs fan DNA to pit one teammate against another.

[Spurs Homer]

Fatboy Zion has that “manu” thing...

you know he’s going left, defender knows he going left, opposing coaches know he going left


and no matter how good the defender is- he goes left and gets to the basket

[SpursDynasty85]

DeRozan played very well in this game, and yes, he was clutch in the 4th. Kudos to him for a great game. But he's still the same player-- this doesn't change what a solid decade of metrics in the regular season and in the playoffs say about him.


Same player but not the same team. Every year is different when you change the pieces around you. If most of our talent wasn’t around the same size and position as Demar I would want Demar back at a slight discount. Younger guys growing alongside Demar can make for some exciting Bball.

[GAustex]

If you keep DDR you sit Keldon or trade him if you are serious.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I like Murray and White as our starting back court. I think Murray next year will take and make more 3 pointers and this year, especially the last few games he has shown he isn’t afraid to shoot the 3 which is super important.

I think our biggest issue with the starters is we have too many guys in general who are hesitant to shoot the 3. I understand why Keldon is starting because he is willing to bang with the big players, always plays with energy, and he is a pretty good rebounder despite being under sized most nights. DeRozan has to start because (as bad as he is to some folks) he is this teams best player and the best at creating offensive looks for himself and others.

if the team wasn’t so under sized and had one or two more legit 3&D players with size we would be a legit playoff team.

[TD 21]

They'd be fine if we had two legit 3pt shooting wings.
They're not fine if we have Keldon and Demar next to them.

Nah. Neither is a lead ball handler or go-to scorer.

[Sugus]

Lol, two pages of arguing whether DeFrozen is clutch or not 'cause he makes a couple buckets that he immediately gives back on the other end, but no mention of my guy Blockob "can't be compared to Gobert" Turtle with yet another impressive outing. Guy posted 5 (should've been 6 had DW not blocked that one shot too!) blocks, some solid rebounds, and most importantly, 100% on his FTs with a better form to boot. Insane how underrated he is on this Expert Filled board tbh. I'm currently on the theory that since most posters were embarrassingly wrong about him and his contract, it's easier to pretend that he doesn't exist rather than staining those "I've never once had a bad or wrong take on here!!" resumés.... :sleep

Also, my guy Dejounte, I know we're probably gonna disagree on this as well, but the number of other posters furthering my theory that White just runs the offense better is interesting. It's just a marked difference, and I don't even know what stats could "back it up" beyond the eye test - it's just there. I'm not into pitting him and Dejounte against each other as you said, but it's clear that we should sell high on one of them, not only to recoup and gather assets that can get us that #1 guy we're missing, but also to allow the other one to blossom with full reign of the offense. I'm not one to usually agree with Mr Luck over here (though ironically, we tend to agree in a lot of takes, more than he'd like to admit...), but it's dead true that the offensive firepower with both of them at 1-2 is insufficient in this modern NBA, especially shooting-wise. Watching fucking L:lolnzo B:lolll drain stepback 3's over our guards, and knowing none of our own could pull off that move if they wanted to, was funny in a bad way...

[Dejounte]

Lol, two pages of arguing whether DeFrozen is clutch or not 'cause he makes a couple buckets that he immediately gives back on the other end, but no mention of my guy Blockob "can't be compared to Gobert" Turtle with yet another impressive outing. Guy posted 5 (should've been 6 had DW not blocked that one shot too!) blocks, some solid rebounds, and most importantly, 100% on his FTs with a better form to boot. Insane how underrated he is on this Expert Filled board tbh. I'm currently on the theory that since most posters were embarrassingly wrong about him and his contract, it's easier to pretend that he doesn't exist rather than staining those "I've never once had a bad or wrong take on here!!" resumés.... :sleep

Also, my guy Dejounte (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=51342), I know we're probably gonna disagree on this as well, but the number of other posters furthering my theory that White just runs the offense better is interesting. It's just a marked difference, and I don't even know what stats could "back it up" beyond the eye test - it's just there. I'm not into pitting him and Dejounte against each other as you said, but it's clear that we should sell high on one of them, not only to recoup and gather assets that can get us that #1 guy we're missing, but also to allow the other one to blossom with full reign of the offense. I'm not one to usually agree with Mr Luck over here (though ironically, we tend to agree in a lot of takes, more than he'd like to admit...), but it's dead true that the offensive firepower with both of them at 1-2 is insufficient in this modern NBA, especially shooting-wise. Watching fucking L:lolnzo B:lolll drain stepback 3's over our guards, and knowing none of our own could pull off that move if they wanted to, was funny in a bad way...

Bro,

You can't mock the posters on this board and then proceed to lean on their opinion on a separate topic to prove a point. That's not how it works :spin

Finally, like I've always said: the duo has improved every season. It's again a narrow point of view to say they don't score enough and seemingly use Lonzo's one hot shooting night as an example..... does. not. make. sense. given that DJ & White both individually score more than Lonzo, and Murray shoots a better overall FG% than Lonzo even if he's not better at 3 PT %. The DJ & White duo outscores the Lonzo & Bledsoe duo as well, and that's with the former's average age being younger. In fact, I think you'll find it surprising to learn that the DJ & White duo outscores a lot of other NBA duos in the league. That's with DeMar hogging up all the possessions, and the fact that this is really their first year as a duo.

[GAustex]

Did you notice Bledsoe wasn’t playing at the important minutes?

[tbdog]

You hear that, y'all? I'm "anti-Spurs". :lmao

You're not coming back with a legitimate argument against the way I'm presenting the stats. When you have a real rebuttal backed with facts and data, come back to me. There's not a productive conversation to be had when all you do is act dismissive.

I just showed the clutch results and then you choose net rating. Go and trade for rozier. We'll be clutch masters according to you

[Dejounte]

I just showed the clutch results and then you choose net rating. Go and trade for rozier. We'll be clutch masters according to you

Another lie. I used your "clutch results" and the data in them.

[tbdog]

Another lie. I used your "clutch results" and the data in them.

In net rating

[Dejounte]

In net rating

https://i.ibb.co/nfx20Sw/demar-clutch-3-Copy.png

The column header says "C-L-T-C-H"

[tbdog]

The website uses more adv shots across the board for a more refined approach to analyse clutch. And DDR is top 15. Your again looking at one category and not a broader spectrum. Again, confirmation bias.

[Dejounte]

The website uses more adv shots across the board for a more refined approach to analyse clutch. And DDR is top 15. Your again looking at one category and not a broader spectrum. Again, confirmation bias.

This is like talking to a brick wall...

My guess is you don't know how to interpret the data you provided.

I'm asking you to EXPLAIN where you are getting "top 15" from.

[R. DeMurre]

I just don't get the DeRozan homers... Why would so many advanced stats be so kind to Duncan, Ginobili, Lebron, Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, Steph, Embiid, Kawhi, Gobert, Durant, etc., etc., etc. but so unkind consistently year after year after year to DeRozan? Do you honestly think it's all glitches, anomalies, and distortions that somehow punish DeRozan but reward all of the other stars and MVP candidates?

[Dejounte]

The website uses more adv shots across the board for a more refined approach to analyse clutch. And DDR is top 15. Your again looking at one category and not a broader spectrum. Again, confirmation bias.


Here. I dumbed it down for you to understand it better:

https://i.ibb.co/5sB2TXH/demar-clutch-3-Copy-2.png

[tbdog]

Your ignoring the formula taking all of them into consideration. This is why your list has Rozier or our beloved Patty Mills as some of the best clutch players.

[tbdog]

I just don't get the DeRozan homers... Why would so many advanced stats be so kind to Duncan, Ginobili, Lebron, Jokic, Doncic, Giannis, Steph, Embiid, Kawhi, Gobert, Durant, etc., etc., etc. but so unkind consistently year after year after year to DeRozan? Do you honestly think it's all glitches, anomalies, and distortions that somehow punish DeRozan but reward all of the other stars and MVP candidates?

Have a look at the players your mentioning here. No one is comparing DDR to them.

[R. DeMurre]

Have a look at the players your mentioning here. No one is comparing DDR to them.

My point is these stats have a strong correlation to quality, and they indicate year after year that DeRozan's quality is vastly overrated by people who only look at things like PPG.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Here. I dumbed it down for you to understand it better:

https://i.ibb.co/5sB2TXH/demar-clutch-3-Copy-2.png

that's old now and because we're dealing with relatively small sample sizes, the rankings and %s change a lot

from what i see ... as of today ... demar is among the league leaders in the volume of clutch shots (and leader in clutch^2 shots ... ie potential game winners)

and he shoots above the league average in all categories -- garbage time, normal time, clutch time and clutch^2 time

so above average while taking a big volume of pressure shots

[heyheymymy]

Here. I dumbed it down for you to understand it better:

https://i.ibb.co/5sB2TXH/demar-clutch-3-Copy-2.png


Damn, you the real timvp lol subscribed

[NASpurs]

My point is these stats have a strong correlation to quality, and they indicate year after year that DeRozan's quality is vastly overrated by people who only look at things like PPG.

The guy is a 6’7” version of Monta Ellis. Cool stats while not a being winning player.

[Em-City]

I just linked a more accurate, more advance clutch shooting website. Or you can cherry pick where Rozier or Devonte Graham are the giants. Your choice
Scary Terry has been a beast in the clutch though

[NK123]

- This forum is funny.

- You are arguing about Murray, White and DeRozan when they are not the reason we are losing.

- The bench production is causing most problems.

- When you analyze most +/- games, both Mills and Gay have been in the negative.

- We often lose games when Gay and Mills play close games or when they play over 22 minute per game.

- Whenever Gay and Mills sore 9 points or less, their negatives become to big for us to win games.

- White, Demar and Murray are +/- positives for most games, even when we lose.

- If we reduce Mills minutes, let Gay walk, give Keldon "the Rudy Gay role from the bench" and Sign a quality 4, we will become top 5 seed without any doubt.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

- This forum is funny.

- You are arguing about Murray, White and DeRozan when they are not the reason we are losing.

- The bench production is causing most problems.

- When you analyze most +/- games, both Mills and Gay have been in the negative.

- We often lose games when Gay and Mills play close games or when they play over 22 minute per game.

- Whenever Gay and Mills sore 9 points or less, their negatives become to big for us to win games.

- White, Demar and Murray are +/- positives for most games, even when we lose.

- If we reduce Mills minutes, let Gay walk, give Keldon "the Rudy Gay role from the bench" and Sign a quality 4, we will become top 5 seed without any doubt.

Literally all of the Spurs best lineups for the season include both Mills and Gay - with Net ratings of 29.3, 28.1, 27.9, 23.1 and 13.7. The best non Mills-Gay lineup has a Net rating of 7.1, which is the current starting lineup.

They may not be great or consistent enough for the Spurs to be better, but they're certainly not the reason why the team lose games. And neither is the bench production as a whole.

[JuneJive]

Poeltl starting took away from the bench's dominance.

[Fusternino]

A lot of the team's issues stem from the 2/2-3 positions being overcrowded. How to ensure neither DDR or KJ ends up at the 4 in any lineup? I think KJ just needs to come off the bench in the Manu role. And I think if DDR walks, then this team will be pressed to get to 30 wins.

[FkLA]

Another stat that shows DeMar is one of the worst players in the clutch with minimum FGA > 1.7

Both stats are very team dependent. It's no coincidence most players near the top of the list are on the most stacked teams. Dame seems to be the anomaly, but he's a known assassin.

BTW even if he's the worst of that bunch (which he isnt), that's pretty good company. You have to be pretty damn good to be given the responsibility that the other players on those lists are given. Saying he's not Dame, Harden, or Embiid isnt really an insult. DeMar is still pretty damn good in his own right.

[exstatic]

- This forum is funny.

- You are arguing about Murray, White and DeRozan when they are not the reason we are losing.

- The bench production is causing most problems.

- When you analyze most +/- games, both Mills and Gay have been in the negative.

- We often lose games when Gay and Mills play close games or when they play over 22 minute per game.

- Whenever Gay and Mills sore 9 points or less, their negatives become to big for us to win games.

- White, Demar and Murray are +/- positives for most games, even when we lose.

- If we reduce Mills minutes, let Gay walk, give Keldon "the Rudy Gay role from the bench" and Sign a quality 4, we will become top 5 seed without any doubt.

Shit, just sit Patty, NOW, and play Vassel, and we’d improve markedly.

[exstatic]

The guy is a 6’7” version of Monta Ellis. Cool stats while not a being winning player.
GS fans eventually came to hate him. One of the best player memes, ever, was a picture of a smiling Monta Ellis, captioned ‘scored 40 points again, and we lost. That’s our Monta!’

[exstatic]

White needs to be the one running the sets going forward. I like Murray but he does not control the game and pace like White can and frequently calls his own number too much. Spurs would probably be better served trading him while his value is high

[R. DeMurre]

Shit, just sit Patty, NOW, and play Vassel, and we’d improve markedly.

It's exactly like last year, with Forbes getting too many minutes...

[NK123]

Literally all of the Spurs best lineups for the season include both Mills and Gay - with Net ratings of 29.3, 28.1, 27.9, 23.1 and 13.7. The best non Mills-Gay lineup has a Net rating of 7.1, which is the current starting lineup.

They may not be great or consistent enough for the Spurs to be better, but they're certainly not the reason why the team lose games. And neither is the bench production as a whole.

- Check recent +/- and you will notice that Gay, Mills and Lonnie get constant negatives.

- Offensive rating against subs is not the same as playing against starters.

- I'm not sure but scoring faster is not necessarily the same as scoring more.

- Chris Paul has one of the worst offensive ratings in the league but we all know where the Suns stand as a team right now.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

- Check recent +/- and you will notice that Gay, Mills and Lonnie get constant negatives.

Some +s, some -s, as expected. Make a point for yourself if you have one.


- Offensive rating against subs is not the same as playing against starters.

Which is why they are bench players outplaying other bench players. Certainly not a point in 'the reason the team is losing' case.


- I'm not sure but scoring faster is not necessarily the same as scoring more.

Eh?


- Chris Paul has one of the worst offensive ratings in the league but we all know where the Suns stand as a team right now.

Not sure about your point and what the relevance is, but Chris Paul has an excellent offensive rating.

[NK123]

- Win shares / Win shares per 48 / Box plus minus / Value Over Replacement .... Demar leads the Spurs in all these categories. He is our best player.

- Both Rudy and Mills are worse than Drew Eubanks in the same categories.

- Rudy and Mills have worse Win Shares per 48 than All the key players, including Vassell.

- Rudy and Mills are eating time from our young guns.

- I've been saying that, Demar is not the problem. We need better bench players and another 23+ scorer.

[rankingtear]

- Win shares / Win shares per 48 / Box plus minus / Value Over Replacement .... Demar leads the Spurs in all these categories. He is our best player.

- Both Rudy and Mills are worse than Drew Eubanks in the same categories.

- Rudy and Mills have worse Win Shares per 48 than All the key players, including Vassell.

- Rudy and Mills are eating time from our young guns.

- I've been saying that, Demar is not the problem. We need better bench players and another 23+ scorer.

Can't just compare advance stats to players with completely different roles in the offense. You can't even compare win shares across positions, centers always comes out on top.

[NK123]

Can't just compare advance stats to players with completely different roles in the offense. You can't even compare win shares across positions, centers always comes out on top.
Demar is over our Center, so... it is very telling of something.

[FkLA]

GS fans eventually came to hate him. One of the best player memes, ever, was a picture of a smiling Monta Ellis, captioned ‘scored 40 points again, and we lost. That’s our Monta!’

Inefficient, limited playmaker, undersized, volume scorer.

Sounds just like DeStar :rolleyes

[Sugus]

Sorry for a late reply, D, been away for some days. I got my cast off! I'll get in touch with you shortly, life's a bit messy RN. Anyways.


Bro,

You can't mock the posters on this board and then proceed to lean on their opinion on a separate topic to prove a point. That's not how it works :spin

I definitely can. Well, not really, it's not what I did lol. I didn't say other posters seeing the offense flow better "proved" my point, just that the difference in offense is notable enough to the point that other people say it without me talking about it. The "proof" would lie in statistics, offensive efficiency with White vs DJ at PG (though the samples will be inevitably muddled up due to this weird-ass season), the rate at which other Spurs score off White passes Vs DJ passes, and so on. I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm not a "stats guy" so I don't really know how to look those things up, but I certainly wouldn't just take other posters' sayings to say it proved my point. I'd love to see some stats on that, as I told you before.


Finally, like I've always said: the duo has improved every season. It's again a narrow point of view to say they don't score enough and seemingly use Lonzo's one hot shooting night as an example..... does. not. make. sense. given that DJ & White both individually score more than Lonzo, and Murray shoots a better overall FG% than Lonzo even if he's not better at 3 PT %. The DJ & White duo outscores the Lonzo & Bledsoe duo as well, and that's with the former's average age being younger. In fact, I think you'll find it surprising to learn that the DJ & White duo outscores a lot of other NBA duos in the league. That's with DeMar hogging up all the possessions, and the fact that this is really their first year as a duo.

The duo has improved every season, which is natural considering both DW-DJ are young, up-and-coming players; yet continued improvement doesn't at all mean that the ceiling is good enough to contend with. They could improve every season for the next 5 years, and still be nowhere close to a championship-level starting backcourt. It's totally fine if you think they have that ceiling in them as a pairing..... I'm just not seeing it. And this season, weird as it has been, has hardly dispelled this notion for me. They just lack offensive production in general; spacing, willingness to shoot from outside (DJ), and most importantly, 3pt shooting ability.

And that's why I mentioned Lonzo. Not because he scored whatever amount of points - but the way he was scoring them. Again, do you think out of any Spurs guards, they could perform that move that Lonzo casually pulled off (the dribble penetration -> sudden stop -> stepback -> 3pt shot)? I can honestly say I have not once seen DJ nor White perform that move, and I've watched about 90% of Spurs games this season. They don't have both the dribbling/footwork to pull off the move itself, nor the shooting accuracy to reliably get a 3pt shot off such an awkward (body-wise) set. And that's only the "basic" move of a modern NBA shooting guard; I've also not seen them shoot a single side-step 3, also a modern "staple", nor transition pull-up 3 (maybe White, once or twice?), and most important of all, they just don't stetch their defender out beyond the 3pt line.

Seriously, focus on that for the next Spurs game. Have you been watching Luka this season? Of course it's an unfair comparison, I'm not going there - but you see him start his dribble, make his moves, his game, from a couple steps beyond the 3pt line. He's such a good shooter that he forces the defense to play out to him out there . If Dejounte is dribbling at the same spot, do you think the defender plays up to him the same way? Of course not: they'll wait for him right at the 3pt line, and even go under the screen Jakob will set, unless DJ's made a couple threes that particular game already. Dame gets played the same way Luka is by defenders, as is Tatum, as is Brown, as is Harden, as is [insert modern NBA shooting star guard]. And neither White nor DJ are played that way. And, bottom-line, however much you think they're improving as a tandem.... They're probably never going to be played that way by smart NBA defenses. And in this day and age, I have a real doubt whether you can win a championship with a backcourt that can be "dared to shoot". In any playoff series, let alone a WCSF-WCF run.

I don't really care about %s here, or points scored, is my point. DJ's bread-and-butter ways of scoring are just as outdated as DeRozan's, smart teams will gladly give him that midrange pullup every day of the week. White is a smarter scorer, but he also isn't "enough", to me at least. I'm just saying, the way DJ is playing, there's absolutely the possibility to ship him off for many more assets than it took to get him, and roll the dice again to see whether we can get "that guy". White's injury history, age, and larger contract make him the less tradeable one IMO - though of course I'm realistic enough to know the Spurs FO will never do this. I just think it's an interesting discussion to be had, tbh. :downspin:


All I've written here can be summed up in this play from Luka, tbh: https://streamable.com/550jvb

[Dejounte]

The duo has improved every season, which is natural considering both DW-DJ are young, up-and-coming players; yet continued improvement doesn't at all mean that the ceiling is good enough to contend with. They could improve every season for the next 5 years, and still be nowhere close to a championship-level starting backcourt. It's totally fine if you think they have that ceiling in them as a pairing..... I'm just not seeing it. And this season, weird as it has been, has hardly dispelled this notion for me. They just lack offensive production in general; spacing, willingness to shoot from outside (DJ), and most importantly, 3pt shooting ability.


I just don't understand why you use this as a point against DJ. For many games now, DJ has had no hesitation in his 3's. You're carrying a point that isn't valid anymore. If you needed to see him do it for a longer period, you could have said that. But I'll use your card here and say that other posters have noticed the change without me saying it (check the game threads), and even Sean Elliot has noted it in the broadcast. The whole argument just breaks down itself when this is your foundation, since this is your basis of why their ceiling is so low. Like, I agree with you if he's open he should shoot it (which like I said, he has been doing). But I don't agree with shooting 8 threes a game for the sake of shooting 8 threes because everybody does it. The game doesn't need to be a 3-point chuck fest.

I think there's this obsession of what skills a point guard should have in order for a team to be successful. There's no blueprint for this. None. Yes, a ton of modern guards pull this move off. How many of them have gotten far because of said skill aside from the once-in-a-generation great Stephen Curry? The champs in this league have always won because they didn't follow the trend of their time. The Spurs have always trailblazed by being different from the rest. Lockdown D? Check. Beautiful game? Check. Draft International players? Check. Why should they follow the league trend in 3-point shooting guards when instead they can game plan against it (I know, they're not there yet)?

It seems this whole "my point guard has to have a step back jumper" is more like a "I want strawberries on my cake" type preference. Hugely based on your personal preference, and not backed up by what wins championships in this league. In the playoffs, everything slows down. We've seen even Curry shut down for his barrage of 3's. I know. It's pleasing to the eye, trust me I love watching those backbreaking 3's. But I'm not going to fool myself into firmly believing that it's THE absolute ingredient to get you far when only one player has successfully done it (and even then, he had a super team).

[Sugus]

I just don't understand why you use this as a point against DJ. For many games now, DJ has had no hesitation in his 3's.

Wow, heavy disagree with that post. Really interesting, hope you entertain this discussion with me, because I haven't seen it talked about elsewhere in this forum.

If you read the rest of my post beyond what you quoted (of course you did, just saying), you'll see I'm not talking (only) about him "hesitating" on shooting 3's. If only that was the only flaw in his shooting game...... But no. I definitely see him being more willing to shoot catch-and-shoot 3's this season than the last; that's why I didn't disagree with you about the pairing improving, and I've long been a "truther" of DJ in that regard. But it's absolutely disingenous to think he's a good or complete 3pt shooter just because he'll shoot the occasional C&S... Again, a modern NBA guard's 3pt shooting arsenal goes absolutely beyond C&S, and especially so if you're gonna be a score-first PG. That's why I cited those other players; all of them can create their own shot and be a threat from the 3pt line by a multitude of different shots, that none of our guards are able to pull off, leave alone rely on. Step-backs are just the first, there's also side-steps, high-screen pull-ups, transition pull-ups, and so on.

Heavy disagree that it's a "strawberries on my cake" kind of thing, and also a "Curry" kind of thing. The misguided "zig vs zag" mentality the Spurs have approached in this regard, and that you foster with that post, has led the team to stagnant, outdated mediocre play, a team not good enough to make the playoffs even with a "midrange master" in DDR, and by all accounts, a lack of offensive firepower and dominance. It's something an oldhead would say.... Let's put it another way: how many stars in this league can you count for me, that don't rely heavily on the 3pt shot and its variance to be successful? Even C's like Jokic and Embiid shoot them. Far from a strawberry to me. "What wins championships in this league"? Last years' Lakers champs featured a 3pt shooting big (!), and another great 3PT shooter in LBJ (who also has a full-package of moves beyond the arc, and can bomb long range - something that would come closer to the "strawberry"). The Raptors I guess were the anomaly? And even then, Kawhi and Siakam both have gravity from beyond the arc due to being good shooters. Then you get the GSW rings, spearheaded by the GOAT shooter and Durant, also a 3pt killer beyond his midrange. The league is no longer what it was in the Beautiful Game era and previous.

And it's no "obsession" over what qualities a starting NBA guard should have.... It's just the way the game is played now. The 3pt shot opens up the midrange, never the other way around. I ask again - what playoff defense is going over on Dejounte's screens? I think zero, tbh. That will greatly limit his impact and ability to go to his midrange - especially when, as you say, things slow down, and teams are hounding at him. We'll have to rely on White taking bad pull-up 3pt attempts just so we're not trading 2's for 3's every single possession. In that regard, I can't say I'm confident handing the keys of the offense to DJ after DeMar leaves; he'll just face the same wall DeRozan faces every playoff series, every packed paint, every team daring, begging him to shoot from outside. And he'll brick. Until he adds this to his game (which I'm not discounting could happen! he's maybe the hardest worker on the team, after all), it's simply how it'll go. I would like to know how you'd envision a POs series going down, because I don't see many other results than this as long as DJ is the PG.

So that's a lot of words to explain why I think the offense runs better through DW, and also DJ's limitations. DW simply has more gravity, commands more attention when he has the ball in his hands beyond the arc, and that added space allows him much better finishes than the inefficient middies DJ is so willing to take (and playoff defenses will so gladly give him).