Grades: Spurs @ Knicks - May 13, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-new-york-knicks-game-70/

Play-in Spot Status: Clinched!

https://i.imgur.com/vIf0lAD.gif

[lefty]

Mandatory celebration song going forward


If we win of course

1390884799301275648

[Robz4000]

Disagree about Murray and KJ's defense tbh. Thought they made poor decisions.

[tbdog]

I say it's now game rest and more training drills all for the play in.

[BillMc]

Thanks OP

[Blackhaus]

Good now pop and rest Patty so he can play 35 min in the play in game loss.

[SAGirl]

It needs to be said.

1393186040509251585

1393030468606431234

[DAF86]

Hopefully we get the Lakers.

[KingKev]

It needs to be said.

1393186040509251585

1393030468606431234

shoutout Metu for missing that 3 also

[MultiTroll]

Good now pop and rest Patty so he can play 35 min in the play in game loss.
Pattys anxiety level about scoring a new huge fat contract with Pop:
https://th.bing.com/th/id/Rcd19abd02a2c56be9554fe13fffb6baf?rik=d3T1q%2buPWs uDkA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.abc.net.au%2fnews%2fimage%2f8 762946-3x2-700x467.jpg&ehk=JBRaCSvhrRpZ70wxO66wy2w9W%2byjsbX%2bbKG%2fyxGi M48%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw
https://www.success.com/was-vince-lombardi-right-that-winning-is-the-only-thing/#:~:text=Lombardi%E2%80%99s%20thoughts%20on%20winn ing%20touch%20on%20some%20of,%E2%80%9CThe%20will%2 0to%20win%20is%20the%20only%20thing.%E2%80%9D
https://www.success.com/was-vince-lombardi-right-that-winning-is-the-only-thing/#:~:text=Lombardi%E2%80%99s%20thoughts%20on%20winn ing%20touch%20on%20some%20of,%E2%80%9CThe%20will%2 0to%20win%20is%20the%20only%20thing.%E2%80%9D

[SAGirl]

shoutout Metu for missing that 3 also
It needs to be said, he tried hard to not give the Spurs that 10th spot.

[KingKev]

Pattys anxiety level about scoring a new huge fat contract with Pop:
https://th.bing.com/th/id/Rcd19abd02a2c56be9554fe13fffb6baf?rik=d3T1q%2buPWs uDkA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.abc.net.au%2fnews%2fimage%2f8 762946-3x2-700x467.jpg&ehk=JBRaCSvhrRpZ70wxO66wy2w9W%2byjsbX%2bbKG%2fyxGi M48%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw
https://www.success.com/was-vince-lombardi-right-that-winning-is-the-only-thing/#:~:text=Lombardi%E2%80%99s%20thoughts%20on%20winn ing%20touch%20on%20some%20of,%E2%80%9CThe%20will%2 0to%20win%20is%20the%20only%20thing.%E2%80%9D
https://www.success.com/was-vince-lombardi-right-that-winning-is-the-only-thing/#:~:text=Lombardi%E2%80%99s%20thoughts%20on%20winn ing%20touch%20on%20some%20of,%E2%80%9CThe%20will%2 0to%20win%20is%20the%20only%20thing.%E2%80%9D

Loyalty contract imminent. DRob, Timmy, Manu and Parker all took chips off the table to win. When the Spurs quickly realize that all that cap space is useless he will get his and more but hopefully only for 2 years. Realistically we need him to go FIBA Patty on meth on the offensive end to beat GS, while hiding him on the defensive end but we all know Deorzan is about to go 5-16 with a game changing technical foul.

[rjv]

absolutely agree on pop blowing this game with his stubborn refusal to yank patty. this was when the spurs needed offense and the knicks went on their run.

[John B]

Grades too high across the board for squandering 17pts lead. F on Pop is deserving though. They needed the win to learn how to close games, especially when they're playing in the play-in.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Mills is not good for the Spurs at this point in his career because Pop refuses to use him to his strengths--a short-burst, high energy player who's most effective in limited minutes. Trying to rely on him for more than that is foolish, yet Pop continues to beat that dead horse until there's nothing left. Patty wore out and now he's f'ing worthless.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Spurs need to give these last two to the Suns and just rest the starters and everyone over the age of 25 these last two games.

[rjv]

patty is a great off-court guy and has been a loyal and valuable spur for many seasons. but he's just a really bad basketball player now and his physical limitations amplify that mediocrity.

[MultiTroll]

Good to see the adjustment by the grade.


Pop is a great off-court guy and has been a loyal and valuable spur for many seasons. but he's just a really bad basketball coach now and his physical limitations amplify that mediocrity.
Also a fit?
Circa summer 2007?

[John B]

In the Beautiful Game, Patty got open shots because the ball rotates. Nowadays, it's iso after iso, and Patty has to manufacture his shots. Patty is best at catch and shoot, and occasional PNR. He didn't really necessarily got worst. It's the system that's fucked. Players are forced to play outside of their character.

[rjv]

In the Beautiful Game, Patty got open shots because the ball rotates. Nowadays, it's iso after iso, and Patty has to manufacture his shots. Patty is best at catch and shoot, and occasional PNR. He didn't really necessarily got worst. It's the system that's fucked. Players are forced to play outside of their character.

i agree that the degradation of talent on this team has not helped patty but his shot is also far less dependent than it used to be; he misses a lot of open shots.

[John B]

i agree that the degradation of talent on this team has not helped patty but his shot is also far less dependent than it used to be; he misses a lot of open shots.
I bet Patty would play better with a contender. I wish he signs with a contender :lol:lol:lol

[John B]

Off topic, Dieng would fit better than Poeltl, if Pop would re-introduce the "beautiful game" albeit minus Derozan. DJ, White, Keldon, Luka, Dieng

[Russ]

Spurs need to give these last two to the Suns and just rest the starters and everyone over the age of 25 these last two games.

Agreed. All the Spurs should be doing the next few days is preparing for Memphis and Golden State. They'll likely have to beat both those teams in succession, we just don t know the order.

Film sessions only, just resting.

[KobesAchilles]

I thought Pop coached one of his best games of the season. Dude benched Poeltl for his shitty ass play. The youth all shit the bed. And he relied on his horses to win the game. They didn’t but it’s not like there was this awesome alternative either.

[Sugus]

Boy, has my opinion on Murray soured on recent times. It's crazy to me how under-the-radar it goes, even on such a contrarian forum as this, just how flawed a player he is. Yet another night of zero 3pt shots made - as the starting PG of an NBA team in 2021! And it's not like he was just cold and went 0-10... Simply did not look for his outside shot at all, outside of his inefficient, defense-bailing contested midrange shots. He's currently a shoot-first PG who lives off the worst possible shots you can take in modern basketball. Yes, there's potential for marginal development as he nears his prime, but it'll always be growth over this shoddy, outdated base style of play. Dejounte is the bastard brain child of the Popovich System... And it shows.

White being there to aid him in running the offense really elevated his game (or rather, hid the ugliness of his true face). White, also a shoot-first player, takes the good 3s that stretch out the defense and give DJ the space to do his thing, while also taking on the brunt of playmaking, letting DJ go ISO-mode in the midrange as he pleases. DJ can't play well without White.... But I wouldn't really say that White needs DJ in any capacity. Any replacement-level, modern SG (maybe someone like Vassell) can perfectly provide White the spacing he needs to do his thing, set up his teammates, and work on defense when needed. It's such a shame that White's the brittle-boned of the two... It's the only thing that makes me hesitant to "put my chips" entirely on his basket and jump on the "trade-DJ-yesterday" bandwagon.

I really hope we go for a playmaking big or forward with whichever pick we end up having. Whatever makes Dejounte's "playmaking" and offense-running abilities more redundant will be a W in my book.

[Sugus]

I thought Pop coached one of his best games of the season. Dude benched Poeltl for his shitty ass play. The youth all shit the bed. And he relied on his horses to win the game. They didn’t but it’s not like there was this awesome alternative either.

I really gotta give you props, man. You're currently the best troll on this site, bar none. Not annoying, no over-the-top persona, no single beaten-to-death shtick; just a deliciously warped view of the team that's very refreshing to see, in a weird way, amidst the rest of the posters. It took me a while to catch on, but I enjoy your posts a lot, my guy.

[SAGirl]

Boy, has my opinion on Murray soured on recent times. It's crazy to me how under-the-radar it goes, even on such a contrarian forum as this, just how flawed a player he is. Yet another night of zero 3pt shots made - as the starting PG of an NBA team in 2021! And it's not like he was just cold and went 0-10... Simply did not look for his outside shot at all, outside of his inefficient, defense-bailing contested midrange shots. He's currently a shoot-first PG who lives off the worst possible shots you can take in modern basketball. Yes, there's potential for marginal development as he nears his prime, but it'll always be growth over this shoddy, outdated base style of play. Dejounte is the bastard brain child of the Popovich System... And it shows.

White being there to aid him in running the offense really elevated his game (or rather, hid the ugliness of his true face). White, also a shoot-first player, takes the good 3s that stretch out the defense and give DJ the space to do his thing, while also taking on the brunt of playmaking, letting DJ go ISO-mode in the midrange as he pleases. DJ can't play well without White.... But I wouldn't really say that White needs DJ in any capacity. Any replacement-level, modern SG (maybe someone like Vassell) can perfectly provide White the spacing he needs to do his thing, set up his teammates, and work on defense when needed. It's such a shame that White's the brittle-boned of the two... It's the only thing that makes me hesitant to "put my chips" entirely on his basket and jump on the "trade-DJ-yesterday" bandwagon.

I really hope we go for a playmaking big or forward with whichever pick we end up having. Whatever makes Dejounte's "playmaking" and offense-running abilities more redundant will be a W in my book.
This is a good conversation. You probably didn’t notice it bc of short visit to the site but there’s a similar argument in the Trade Murray thread, including the mention of White’s injury absences. I am too casual to give strong opinions on this and I honestly doubt the Spurs trade him so I stayed out of it but it’s definitely been noticed and argued. He has gotten more Kobme after White got injured than even b4 and he’s taking more midrange shots (and not hitting them well enough as of late either)...

[Dejounte]

Boy, has my opinion on Murray soured on recent times. It's crazy to me how under-the-radar it goes, even on such a contrarian forum as this, just how flawed a player he is. Yet another night of zero 3pt shots made - as the starting PG of an NBA team in 2021! And it's not like he was just cold and went 0-10... Simply did not look for his outside shot at all, outside of his inefficient, defense-bailing contested midrange shots. He's currently a shoot-first PG who lives off the worst possible shots you can take in modern basketball. Yes, there's potential for marginal development as he nears his prime, but it'll always be growth over this shoddy, outdated base style of play. Dejounte is the bastard brain child of the Popovich System... And it shows.

White being there to aid him in running the offense really elevated his game (or rather, hid the ugliness of his true face). White, also a shoot-first player, takes the good 3s that stretch out the defense and give DJ the space to do his thing, while also taking on the brunt of playmaking, letting DJ go ISO-mode in the midrange as he pleases. DJ can't play well without White.... But I wouldn't really say that White needs DJ in any capacity. Any replacement-level, modern SG (maybe someone like Vassell) can perfectly provide White the spacing he needs to do his thing, set up his teammates, and work on defense when needed. It's such a shame that White's the brittle-boned of the two... It's the only thing that makes me hesitant to "put my chips" entirely on his basket and jump on the "trade-DJ-yesterday" bandwagon.

I really hope we go for a playmaking big or forward with whichever pick we end up having. Whatever makes Dejounte's "playmaking" and offense-running abilities more redundant will be a W in my book.

Far from the team's biggest problem. I know I haven't responded to your previous posts-- I became strongly discouraged to do so. It's easy for an unpopular opinion to get drowned by the waves of groupthink here. I just think this line of thinking is way too simplistic and I'll leave it at that. Sports is results-driven entertainment. Fans point to the easiest suspects, namely players who log the most minutes, most shots, most usage. And of those on the Spurs team, or any basketball team, it's typically the players in the SL. Next, people point to players with glaring flaws and say "that's the guy who is causing our problems!". What you've done here is chosen Murray because of the same, tired rehash after rehash of "he shoot no 3's", not much different than the Poeltl "he no shoot at all". Fans have attached themselves to the style of basketball they like best, you can see it all over this board when they want to draft any kind of big man and think the Spurs will turn them into the next Tim Duncan. Others, like you and myself, respect and like Stephen Curry and wish our point guard was like that as well. Don't respond to this with a long message, my friend. I know you hate me for not responding to the other posts after you put so much effort in it and I'm sorry :D

This is my stance on it. I'm no fanboy of Murray (says the guy with the username "Dejounte"), I wanted him gone last season. I'm just beginning to see things perhaps other people here are too slow to see. And it's not even that I see him as a franchise player, which anti-DJ people keep repeating tirelessly (really dumb take). Anyhow, that's my quick 2 cents on it. Thought to reply to you (because I respect you more than other people) before I go back to not caring about this boring topic.

[Sugus]

This is a good conversation. You probably didn’t notice it bc of short visit to the site but there’s a similar argument in the Trade Murray thread, including the mention of White’s injury absences. I am too casual to give strong opinions on this and I honestly doubt the Spurs trade him so I stayed out of it but it’s definitely been noticed and argued. He has gotten more Kobme after White got injured than even b4 and he’s taking more midrange shots (and not hitting them well enough as of late either)...

Thanks. Yeah, I glanced over at that thread, hilariously made by the notorious Mr Luck, trying to backpedal his way into having always been right even though the premise of the thread was completely wrong, when Dejounte's now a very skilled player - just not in the skills he should be (IMO). I'm perfectly aware that the Spurs are likely not trading DJ for the next 3-4 years and maybe even more, this is more of a theoretical discussion than some "let's throw Trade Machine scenarios around" kinda thing. But these deficiencies in his game have become really hard to ignore... And I've come to have higher standards for him, for better or worse. I keep thinking about these things I wrote about (which I've been going back-and-forth on with my guy Dejounte for a little while now (where's my essay-length answer, huh?! :lol)), and it really is an interesting conversation.

It's not just the midrange shots that bother me - it's the context to how and when he's taking them. Great players always need the ability to hit these shots that DJ takes, because opposite defenses are game-planning for them and will want to take away the "easier" scoring options from them (in today's league, that'd usually be perimeter 3-balls and layups/rim shots). But Dejounte not only relishes in taking those hard 2's... He's based his entire scoring arsenal around them, to the point that he can't do much else if those shots aren't falling. Any team that scouts the Spurs even superficially can see DJ absolutely refusing to take any sort of 3 that isn't given to him as a C&S, making things hard for himself by needlesly penetrating into defenders. If the defense takes away his rim shots by packing the paint, he becomes pretty much a DeRozan-lite, unable to generate 3's for himself, and only having these tough 2's (that he doesn't convert at a nearly enough efficiency to be worth it now, with zero scouting from other teams in regular season games, nevermind a playoff series) to score. Simply unreliable.

I don't know the "answer" for this, other than hoping he makes some sort of magic jump and becomes a 3pt shooting force. But as I've said elsewhere, the kinds of shots he has to take for that, are ones you grow up practicing, or learn really early into your career then polish over years... He's in his what, fifth season, and there's still no improvement there (his % may increase, but the type of shots hasn't varied much beyond the arc). At this point, I'm far from hopeful in that regard, tbqh.

E: I can't believe you literally answered my post as I was writing this, D :lmao how do we keep cross-posting each other like that? It's looking more and more like witchcraft or something, lol. I'll get to you in a bit.

[Sugus]

Far from the team's biggest problem. I know I haven't responded to your previous posts-- I became strongly discouraged to do so. It's easy for an unpopular opinion to get drowned by the waves of groupthink here. I just think this line of thinking is way too simplistic and I'll leave it at that. Sports is results-driven entertainment. Fans point to the easiest suspects, namely players who log the most minutes, most shots, most usage. And of those on the Spurs team, or any basketball team, it's typically the players in the SL. Next, people point to players with glaring flaws and say "that's the guy who is causing our problems!". What you've done here is chosen Murray because of the same, tired rehash after rehash of "he shoot no 3's", not much different than the Poeltl "he no shoot at all". Fans have attached themselves to the style of basketball they like best, you can see it all over this board when they want to draft any kind of big man and think the Spurs will turn them into the next Tim Duncan. Others, like you and myself, respect and like Stephen Curry and wish our point guard was like that as well. Don't respond to this with a long message, my friend. I know you hate me for not responding to the other posts after you put so much effort in it and I'm sorry :D

This is my stance on it. I'm no fanboy of Murray (says the guy with the username "Dejounte"), I wanted him gone last season. I'm just beginning to see things perhaps other people here are too slow to see. And it's not even that I see him as a franchise player, which anti-DJ people keep repeating tirelessly (really dumb take). Anyhow, that's my quick 2 cents on it. Thought to reply to you (because I respect you more than other people) before I go back to not caring about this boring topic.

Interesting post. On the one hand, I completely understand and respect it if you don't want to talk about it.... On the other hand, ENTERTAIN ME!!!!!. Lol. I don't hate you for not responding or anything, but it's a very interesting topic to me - completely disagree that my view is "way too simplistic" - so I'd love to hear your takes on it. I'm not one to shit-fling hate towards DJ, I'm one of the few posters here who hasn't ever called him IG Baller or some shit, but he has real limitations and acknowledging them isn't really "hate", IMO. But I can see how not every topic is interesting for everyone, God knows I avoid certain topics like the plague.

At this point, I'd like for the Spurs to make the playoffs. Maybe if you actually see Dejounte get played like I say he will by an opposing defense, you'll entertain me in a discussion... Or maybe you'll be able to gloat after DJ drops a 30 point triple-double on the Lakers :lol. Either way, it'll be entertaining. GSG :flag:

[SAGirl]

Thanks. Yeah, I glanced over at that thread, hilariously made by the notorious Mr Luck, trying to backpedal his way into having always been right even though the premise of the thread was completely wrong, when Dejounte's now a very skilled player - just not in the skills he should be (IMO). I'm perfectly aware that the Spurs are likely not trading DJ for the next 3-4 years and maybe even more, this is more of a theoretical discussion than some "let's throw Trade Machine scenarios around" kinda thing. But these deficiencies in his game have become really hard to ignore... And I've come to have higher standards for him, for better or worse. I keep thinking about these things I wrote about (which I've been going back-and-forth on with my guy Dejounte (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=51342) for a little while now (where's my essay-length answer, huh?! :lol)), and it really is an interesting conversation.

It's not just the midrange shots that bother me - it's the context to how and when he's taking them. Great players always need the ability to hit these shots that DJ takes, because opposite defenses are game-planning for them and will want to take away the "easier" scoring options from them (in today's league, that'd usually be perimeter 3-balls and layups/rim shots). But Dejounte not only relishes in taking those hard 2's... He's based his entire scoring arsenal around them, to the point that he can't do much else if those shots aren't falling. Any team that scouts the Spurs even superficially can see DJ absolutely refusing to take any sort of 3 that isn't given to him as a C&S, making things hard for himself by needlesly penetrating into defenders. If the defense takes away his rim shots by packing the paint, he becomes pretty much a DeRozan-lite, unable to generate 3's for himself, and only having these tough 2's (that he doesn't convert at a nearly enough efficiency to be worth it now, with zero scouting from other teams in regular season games, nevermind a playoff series) to score. Simply unreliable.

I don't know the "answer" for this, other than hoping he makes some sort of magic jump and becomes a 3pt shooting force. But as I've said elsewhere, the kinds of shots he has to take for that, are ones you grow up practicing, or learn really early into your career then polish over years... He's in his what, fifth season, and there's still no improvement there (his % may increase, but the type of shots hasn't varied much beyond the arc). At this point, I'm far from hopeful in that regard, tbqh.

E: I can't believe you literally answered my post as I was writing this, D :lmao how do we keep cross-posting each other like that? It's looking more and more like witchcraft or something, lol. I'll get to you in a bit.
Off the top of my head Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) has commented about DJ for a while. I consider him a genuine fan in the sense that he doesn’t seem to be interested in purposeful trolling and he usually spends time supporting his POV (agree with it or not). It was him mostly that came to my mind when I referenced that thread, though I know someone else started it (not something I care about) and others chimed in.

Anyways IMO, the Spurs don’t have a special talent for DJ to defer to and their other young guys besides him and White (on the often-injured list) are still green. I like Johnson the most among the green group but I don’t know if he’s ready to take the ball from DJ and Lonnie is still growing as a player (meaning he’s inconsistent from game to game and mentally, he might not be where he needs to be to shoulder responsibilities for team success.) Even White had confidence issues until his play in the bubble last year. Maybe Pop needs to take some blame for confidence issues on his guys and bad shot selection too.

One thing you can say about DJ is that despite the flaws in his game, he has worked hard to improve them (improved his shooting and handles) and he doesn’t shrink from the moment. He’s got the irrational confidence and has had it since he was a rook and greener than grass. That’s why people called him Instagram baller. He was talking the talk before he could back that up. Perhaps that’s why Pop has hitched his ride to him, aside from the work ethic, you have to have guys that want it, even if they don’t achieve it.

I’d hope he gets coached up to improve. I’d like to think he’s not beyond redemption and that he’s still improving as a player. But ultimately to move on from him, the Spurs will need to have a better prospect lined up that will make him redundant. Having White is not enough, not just bc he’s injury prone but bc he can play off the ball and Pop wouldn’t see how they wouldn’t fit or who would be better than DJ and White together.

Caveat that I am not being too harsh on him bc the team doesn’t have talent for him to defer to. White helps him and the team tremendously and he’s just a better offensive player and shooter but he’s out. I also watch the team casually and it’s possible I’d be more exasperated if I watched him over and over go Kobme out there. Pop deserves criticism as well for the kind of offense his team runs.

IMO the Knicks come back wasn’t only motivated by inserting Mills in the game. DJ started to take up a lot of contested shots and miss them. Gay was bad over that stretch. Jakob wasn’t providing anything offensively. The team lacked spacing, and pace. They weren’t moving or cutting or hitting shots. No one was getting screens for a 3 (when the got the screen and were given the shot they would pass it up.

Even a bad TO from Mills came from Demar passing him the ball when he was covered with 6 seconds on the shot clock. Mills drove bc he had no option and was poked from behind. It wasn’t all on just one guy.

My take: The team needs veterans with better BB IQ to support this crew, better passers and shooters overall. A passing/shooting big would be huge for them. Derozan is not a big, doesn’t have that game, and neither does Johnson. Gay is washed. It’s possible with a different team composition DJ would chuck less, and he can be coached up about shot selection. I hope-hope-hope that since the team wants to stay competitive they look to support this crew better at least. Otherwise a tank may be coming and not because they want to, they may just be bad. It seems like overall our complaints boil down to, Dejounte has improved, but he’s not a star and he needs to climb even higher to lift the team up with him if the Spurs are going to stand pat and White is going to miss a lot of games.

[KobesAchilles]

A couple of things. Pop seems to know that Center is a weakness. I think/hope he sees our lack of 3 point shooters as a weakness. Demar is gone this year. We gotta just hope that Dejounte shoots 500 threes a day during the off-season. But this team has glaring weaknesses everywhere and there isn’t a quick fix. I think next year we are in the same place in the West. The 10th to the 11th seed. The Thunder, Rockets, Wolves, and Kings will have a shit record next year and the East will always suck worse than us :lol

[Blackhaus]

Spurs have lost a lot of close games and the big difference I see is the disparity between the Spurs 3 point shooting and the opposing teams 3 point shooting. It seems they are usually giving up around 10 points a game on just the 3 differential. Biggest need is shooting on this team and eliminating weak players named Patty and Gay to a degree. I just hope Vassell, big body and Murray work like hell in the off-season on they’re 3 point shot and the Spurs sign and draft some versatile players that can space the floor.