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View Full Version : Jason Kidd is not a superstar



IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 02:20 PM
He has been made into a superstar by the the NY media. He is a star. At best he is the 13th or 14 best player in the nba

DuffMcCartney
07-03-2003, 02:21 PM
It took you this long to figure it out?

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 02:22 PM
games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba...d=1&iPos=5 (http://games.espn.go.com/cgi/fba/playerrater?iSort=1&iPeriod=1&iPos=5)


Don't mind Ice. He's just a 'tard, that's all.



:cooldevil

scott
07-03-2003, 02:26 PM
Great list, Ghost.

Glad to see you rank Dirk over Duncan, Shawn Marion over Shaq, and Ben Wallace over Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand, Stephon Marbury, and Gary Payton.

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 02:26 PM
I've been saying it the entire time.

That explains it ghost gets his info from fantasy basketball. He probably goes into nba live and simulates trades too.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 02:28 PM
Kidd's one of the top 10 players in this league. He's a triple double waiting to happen on any night. He singlehandedly carried that Nets team into the Finals twice. Eastern Conference or not, that is a significant accomplishment. Other supposedly great players in the East haven't been able to do the same.

scott
07-03-2003, 02:32 PM
Players better than Kidd:

Duncan
Kobe
TMac
KG
Shaq
Dirk
Iverson

Arguable:

Marbury
Webber
O'Neal
Brand
Pierce

He's definitely in the 8-15 range. He is a great player, no doubt.

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 02:35 PM
this is the most idiotic statement ive ever read...kidd was neck-and-neck with duncan just 2 seasons ago for MVP. you may not think he will fit well with this team, but to say he isnt even at superstar level shows no basketball comprehension whatsoever...once kidd comes on board, no jumping on the bandwagon when he gets triple doubles and the spurs get on nice win streaks...im predicting a massive amount of 'ok i was wrong about kidd' threads come next season

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 02:38 PM
scott, you dope. I didn't make up that list. It is a fantasy list that takes the top statistical categories and ranks the players accordingly.

Duncan's ranking was hurt by his lack of 3s and poor FT%.

Even in your list, Kidd makes the top 10.

That is superstar status.

Another pointless thread by Ice.

Kidd is not a superstar, he's just a perennial MVP candidate and stuff. :rolleyes



:cooldevil

scott
07-03-2003, 02:41 PM
I know what that list is, dope.

You are the one posting it to try to prove a point though.

Don't post stupid lists that have Dirk ranked over Duncan.

Consistency is a bitch, I know.

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 02:42 PM
kidd was never neck and neck. he was perceived to be neck and neck by the eastern media. if you remember the vote was extremely in favor of duncan, kidd actually wound up in 3rd place.


Kidd had better numbers in Phoenix where no one notices him more than being a very good player and a great pg, he gets traded to nj. The NY Knicks suck the Nets do well suddenly Kidd is a superstar?

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 02:44 PM
What's your f'ing point?

On the list I posted of actual number crunching and your own subjective list, Kidd is ranked in the top ten.

He is a superstar, scott.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 02:45 PM
Yeah. Kidd took a moribund franchise and made it an elite team in the East along with two consecutive trips to the Finals. Tell me why all the other superstars in the East haven't been able to do the same.

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 02:55 PM
yeah kidd did it all by himself, it had nothing to do with the everyone on the nets finally being healthy, like kerry kittles kenyon martin and even shitty keith van horn. that and the fact that the east was so shitty.


Players better than kidd

1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Garnett
4.Mcgrady
5.Dirk
6.Webber
7.Shaq
8.Pierce
9. Iverson
10. Marbury
11. Francis
12. Jermaine Oneal

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 02:57 PM
Iceman, you're ignorance of Kidd is pretty obvious when you said "actually he came in 3rd place in MVP voting" here are The FACTS:

Voting:

Tim Duncan 57

Jason Kidd 45

Shaquille O'Neal 15

Tracy McGrady 7

Kobe Bryant 1

Gary Payton

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 03:02 PM
Players better than kidd

1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Garnett
4.Mcgrady
5.Dirk
6.Webber
7.Shaq
8.Pierce
9. Iverson
10. Marbury
11. Francis
12. Jermaine Oneal
How come McGrady, Pierce, Iverson and J. O'Neal couldn't get thier teams to the Finals the past two years?

Francis can't even make the playoffs.

Marbury is not better than Kidd.

And you don't seriously have Webber above Shaq, do you?

What a dope. :lol












:cooldevil

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 03:08 PM
how come duncan couldn't get past the lakers the last 2 years?

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 03:10 PM
What does that have to do with anything?


You're beat, man.


:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-03-2003, 03:15 PM
a player with 9000 pts in a career up to now is not a great player, he will not be in Hall of Fame, he is a media induced popular player at best.

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 03:15 PM
iverson got his team to the finals in 2000 did that make him better than duncan the past 3 years?

last i checked this was a team sport. the nets are a better team than the celtics rockets and pacers

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 03:18 PM
and you're one to talk you ghostmoron
you had dirk ahead of duncan and jason terry as the 16th best player in the league

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 03:18 PM
Um, Duncan led his team to a title before Iverson even sniffed the Finals, Ice.

According to your list, Duncan is #1. Kidd should be somewhere in the top 10.



Jimmy, your post isn't worth commenting on. Is Dominique Wilkens a Hall of Famer?






:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-03-2003, 03:21 PM
Great = Hall of Famer

Otherwise in my book , you are not great.

You guys throw great around too readily...sorry to rain on your parade, but that is a fact.

IcemanCometh
07-03-2003, 03:22 PM
alot of people are in the hall of fame.
the basketball hall of fame is pretty easy to get into, they let chicks into it all the time

adidas11
07-03-2003, 03:43 PM
Ice, this is a Top 10 Worst Posts Ever candidate.

Jason Kidd is definitely a superstar. Leads the league in triple doubles each year, makes every team that he plays on significantly better, and has even lead his team to back to back NBA Finals appearances, and even took the mighty Spurs to a 6 game series.

He dominates the game, and doesn't even have to score much to do it, much like Magic Johnson.

NEXT

Whottt
07-03-2003, 03:47 PM
Jeezus what kind of LakerFan compares Jason Kidd to Magic Johnson..even I don't do that and I hate the f'n Lakers.

Yeah he gets lot of triple doubles but Magic was one of the best PCT shooting PG's in history..he could hang 45 on someone if he needed too, he could hit shots from half court like they were FT's...he was a better passer than Kidd and he was a better rebounder..

If we were talking about adding Magic Johnson to this team I don't think there would be near as much arguing.

Hell you could actually make an argument for Magic replacing DROB at Center as well as supplanting Parker at PG..that's not on the level of Jason Kidd..

I'll put Kidd on Magic's level when I see him stepping in for a HOF'er and playing center in game 7 of the NBA Finals.... and winning.

Other than that..Kidd is similar to Magic in that he is a PG who can rebound but that's it...that's where the comparison ends.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 03:50 PM
Kidd's not Magic but his game is certainly the closest to Magic's game since Magic left the game.

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 03:55 PM
Is it too late to send Whott back to the other Forum?

Question.

I liked it better when this place wa sunder the radar.

:cooldevil

adidas11
07-03-2003, 03:56 PM
Damnit Whott, don't make me go off on you again. :lol

I never tried to compare what Magic did in his career to what Jason has done so far. All I said was that both have the ability to dominate the game without putting up big scoring numbers.

Like it or not, Jason Kidd has been, is, and will be a superstar. Hall of Fame material. WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TEAM THAT KIDD PLAYS ON IMPROVES SIGNIFICANTLY AFTER HIS ARRIVAL???

Whottt
07-03-2003, 04:49 PM
LMAO too funny..You actually think I am over here because of you...think about it...I was here months ago remember? The reason I am here now is because totally legitimate threads are being deleted over there....so if you want me gone just get someone to do that here...heaven forbid someone should go around destroying weak points :shootme

Anyway far be it from me to be an antagonistic ahole and cause discomfort for a tar er poster.

Let me make sure I can get in line with the right POV

Whitney > Parker
We will fail to win a title because we didn't trade Malik and Parker for Payton
Parker cannot lead us to an NBA title
Trading AD for the whiteboy Kerr is a bad trade
A routine strategy for aquiring a big name FA is to be viewed as a hidden agenda and called the "holting pattern"

Is that better?

Oh yeah I forgot..anyone that thinks we can win a title this year is a homer.

People that are towing the "supposed" company line of getting Kidd are high minded thinkers and not homers at all.

I have a final question before I become the stepford poster..

Does wanting Brand over Rose make me a homer?

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 04:53 PM
just for some info, magic has refered to Kidd numerous times as "Magic 1A"...if the man says it HIMSELF, he must know something :rolleyes

Whottt
07-03-2003, 04:59 PM
Who hasn't Magic done that with though?

That's why everone loved LA when Magic was there, he was the total antithesis of what they have now..Magic has rated everyone but my grandmother as the greatest of all time.

Who hasn't Magic complimented?

Saying Kidd is the closest thing to Magic is like saying Kobe was the closest thing to Wilt when he scored 40 points in all those consecutive games...

What's the expression? Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 05:11 PM
o'neal is a great player, but why cant he get Indiana out of the 1st round and Kidd can take his team to the finals each year? they are both in the 'weak east', and other than those 2, there isnt much superstar talent on the teams...to not see that he is a great player and improves any team he is on, puzzles me. if tim decides he wants a kidd to play alongside with instead of o'neal, i guess we better believe he knows what he wants from the team

Whottt
07-03-2003, 05:24 PM
Tim is going to get what he wants..so that point is moot...

The thing is..like say O'Neal VS Kidd...

When your team is built around a big man you can get away with putting lesser players around him and winning in the regular season...but in the post season it is easier to take a team built around a bigman out..by double teaming the big and forcing his teamates to step up...then the quality of his surrounding players is revealed when they are forced to step up...See the entire David Robinson era for proof of this..See Kareem Adbul Jabbar any year he didn't have the Big O or Magic on his team..See Shaquille any year Kobe wasn't on his team..

Teams built around a guard require better players 1-5 to win and make the post season with..it is much harder to take a guard out of the game than it is a bigman..Guards are used to trying to distribute the ball anyway..it's instinctive for them to look for the open guy on the rare occasion they are drawing more than one defender. Most bigmen just want to score..Double teaming a guard actually helps the guard more than the average bigman..

The guard traditionally has the ball in his hands more and is the natural floor leader..the typical bigman is reliant on someone getting him the ball where he can do something with it.

The quality of our team was revealed time and time again this post season when Duncan was being double teamed and other players stepped up...

You think any of David's teams would have won a series with him averaging 18ppg like Duncan did in the Phoenix series? No way, not ever.

So if you ask me why Kidd was able to get his team to the finals and Indiana wasn't..that would be my reason..

I mean KG has yet to get his team out of the first round..does that mean you would rather have Kidd over KG?



You could ask the question why was Kidd good enough to get his team to the finals last year but Duncan wasn't?

Why was Philly good enough to be the Lakers one time in 2001 but we weren't?

Jimcs50
07-03-2003, 05:25 PM
Because O'Neals teammates sucked in the playoffs. Why do you think JO was so pissed after the season? O'Neal improved his scoring by 2 pts/game and rebs by 7 /game in playoffs...he did what was called of him to do, but the rest of the team rolled over to Boston.

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 05:27 PM
well, then whats wrong with having a team build around a superstar big man AND a superstar guard? according to your analogy, we would have everything covered to defeat other teams...

Whottt
07-03-2003, 05:30 PM
Yeah but don't forget Kidd's teamates sucked too..that's why Parker lit him up in the first 3 games of the series...

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 05:33 PM
ok, you're saying that kidds teammates sucked, so then essentially he single-handedly took the spurs to 6 games...now imagine what he can do with teammates like duncan and manu who dont suck

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 05:37 PM
The Nets strategy was to double Duncan aggressively and force him to give up the rock. Parker being free in the first 3 games to put up some points is not a surprise. Eventually the Nets changed their strategy and soon Parker was sitting on the bench when the championship was on the line.

Whottt
07-03-2003, 05:40 PM
I don't think Kidd's teamates sucked I was being sarcastic...KMart is a #1 Pick and Jefferson is a #2 pick..and an AS and an Olympian respectively..I don't think Kidd's teamates in Phoenix sucked either..I'd take Marion, Cliff Robinson and Dice...


A better question is what would J"Oneal have done if he had Parker instead of Tinsley?

Oh yeah got to make Ghost happy... Tinsley > Parker

Tinsley is a much better passer than Parker is right? But he is a shit scorer...

How far do you think Indy would have gone if they had Parker?

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 05:40 PM
How come Parker wasn't mentioned in MVP voting and stuff?



Question.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 05:41 PM
Yet how come Parker is worth telling a Kidd to go away without another great player on his way?

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 05:47 PM
Easy.

If you can get a good player like Olowokandi for half as much as Kidd, then you have to consider living with Parker.

No one said these were easy decisions.


:cooldevil

Whottt
07-03-2003, 05:47 PM
MB with all due respect..that isn't accurate..Parker was being defended by Kidd..Parker was taking him off the dribble and making him look bad..Parker was shooting 3's right in his face...

The Nets then made stopping Parker a priority and they put Kittles on him for the duration of the series..Parker had one bad game..and that was the 1-12 in game 4, he still didn't miss as many shots as Kidd did in that game though..

In game 5 Parker sucked but he figured Kittles out by the 3rd quarter..

In game 6 Kittles was all over his ass and he couldn't even get a shot off..Kittles was routinely stripping him before he could even get the offense set up. But then again Jax sucked badly too and he turned it around when it mattered, Parker never got that chance..but when did he choke this year? I think Parker would have pulled his head out..

Parker isn't the player Kidd is but dammit he is what Duncan needs to get double teams off of him..

You rewatch that series and you will the Nets actually putting more than one person on Parker in games 5 and 6 for brief periods of time..when was Kidd ever doubled in that series?

Why would we double him..that's what he wants..it was more like we laid off of him and encouraged him to shoot.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 05:50 PM
Yeah, when the Spurs were setting screens for TP.

TP was never the focal point of the Nets defense in the first 3 games.

Kidd was the focal point of the Spurs defense. With good reason.

Whottt
07-03-2003, 06:00 PM
Right and that formula worked for us Marcus, we won a title with it..and eventually teams will figure out a way to stop Parker and Duncan and that's where guys like Jax and Manu come in. And those guys are gonna be the difference whether we have Kidd or not..scorers..perimeter shooters that don't choke..

You know we didn't beat LA this year because we stopped Kobe and Shaq(well ok Bowen did do a nice job of fucking Kobe's world but it didn't show up in the stats)...they were still putting up basically the same numbers against us they always did..we beat them because Robert Horry sucked...

Those types of guys are the ones who decide championships when strong teams meet..and that's why I want to spend our money on those types of guys and another dominant interior defender..We've got the inside out combination...

Parker is not a guy teams dare to beat them anymore..because he will do it if they give him the chance..

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 06:03 PM
Duncan still does not have someone he can rely on to go to if he is in trouble to make something happen. We Spurs fans get excited by some decent guard play and assume that it can't get any better. I don't care for that attitude.

Duncan needs a superstar teammate if the Spurs are indeed going to continue to field a championship team.

Ghost Writer
07-03-2003, 06:09 PM
Marcus, what about Duncan's need for a post partner?



Question.


Duncan has one two titles without stellar guard play, but he always needed The Admiral.


:cooldevil

Whottt
07-03-2003, 06:11 PM
Bandit I missed your question on what's wrong with having a Suerstar guard..nothing..

But see I don't think it serves the bigman if the Superstar is a passer with limited perimeter offense..

What's Kobe? Scorer

What's Magic..Passer but he could damn sure score..

Jordan - scorer.

Isaiah - scorer

Bird..what ever you wanted..scorer..

What's the combo denominator with all those guys ? They were all dominant scorers and the primary ball handler..

Did the Rockets have any great passers in 93-94? Nope..they had bombers..

About the only team that didn't have that other than the Rockets was the Spurs in 99 but we did have some bombers..and sheesh we aren't gonna have another combo like DROB and Duncan ever..

Keep going and the pattern is going to remain the same...

What was the ringless Stockton? Passer..

Makes sense to me..in that sense Kidd isn't a Super Star..but I would take him over a shitty big..but I still don't think it's going to make us that much stronger..

genghisrex
07-03-2003, 06:35 PM
Jefferson is a #2 pick..and an AS and an Olympian respectively..Jefferson went #13 and his Olympic selection was a total joke. RJ has talent and a good future, but if there's a perfect example of a player made significantly better by Kidd, he's the one.

Edit: I misread the AS part

Whottt
07-03-2003, 06:43 PM
I didn't realize Jefferson went 13 but he wasn't the one I was talking about as far as being an AS..KMart was..

Did Kidd make him better? How much? Yeah he gets lots of points in transition due to Kidd, but the last 3 games of the finals Jefferson was just getting the ball and taking it to the hole and he was doing it pretty effectively..his jumper was never there at any point during the finals so when he was scaring the shit out of me from game 4 on, I think it was more due to his own talents than anything Kidd was doing.

I like Jefferson, I think he's a good player..probably not an Olympian on his own but he'd be starting on our team with or without Kidd.

MI21
07-04-2003, 05:23 AM
^^KMart is also not an All Star^^