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KoriEllis
07-02-2003, 12:22 AM
just reported.

KoriEllis
07-02-2003, 12:23 AM
WOAI news reporting that O'Neal is scheduled to come next week, Wednesday.

scott
07-02-2003, 12:24 AM
And the cherubs rejoice!

scott
07-02-2003, 12:29 AM
Hope RC is reserving the back booth at Henry's Puffy Taco as we speak.

Let's give Jermaine the Derek Anderson Treatment (the one when we were recruiting him... not the one after he left! :lol ) times 10.

San Antonio hearts you Jermaine.

"Come Jermaine Come!"

Hmmm... that catch phrase doesn't sound quite right.

scott
07-02-2003, 12:34 AM
No one cares? C'MON PEOPLE!!! WEDNESDAY IS TOMORROW!

THIS IS OUR MAN!

KoriEllis
07-02-2003, 12:37 AM
No, he's coming next Wednesday, the 9th.

He has plans this weekend. I assume that he's spending time with family considering all they've been through.

Spuratic1
07-02-2003, 12:38 AM
I totally agree with you Scott... Forget Kidd we have PG covered... Could you imagine Tim, Jermaine, Tony, Manu and Bruce all on the court... Here comes another Ring in 2004....

scott
07-02-2003, 12:41 AM
Thanks for the clarification Kori- in my glee I lost the ability to focus.

I've tetered on the fence between who I thought was the better fit for us- Brand or O'Neal... perhaps the fact Jermaine is coming is clouding my judgement, but for some reason I have Jermaine just ahead of Elton right now (whereas Elton has had the slight lead for weeks).

The more I think of it, the more I think Jermaine might be the better fit. He allows us to diversify our play calling while staying within the same basic offense.

Plus, he would be a great trailer (better than Timmy) on the breaks, following Tony, Manu, and Jack for the nice follow up jam or ally-oop.

junglespur
07-02-2003, 12:45 AM
Pacers' O'Neal to visit Spurs
Free agent also to talk with Mavs in Dallas.


By Mark Montieth
[email protected]
July 1, 2003


Jermaine O'Neal apparently plans to flex his freedom and visit with other teams.

The Indiana Pacers forward who became a free agent at midnight Tuesday will meet with officials from the San Antonio Spurs on July 9 and the Dallas Mavericks sometime next week.

O'Neal had stated following the season that he wanted to explore other opportunities, although his first choice would be to remain with the Pacers. His itinerary during the negotiating period leading up to July 16, the first day teams can sign free agents or make trades, therefore comes as no surprise to the Pacers.

"He's an unrestricted free agent and we understand what that means," said David Morway, Pacers vice president of basketball administration. "He has an opportunity to look at other situations and weigh those situations. We feel strongly that at the end of the day we'll be the best situation for Jermaine."

The defending champion Spurs, who are losing David Robinson to retirement and have about $16 million in salary cap room to entice free agents, list O'Neal as one of their targets. Another is New Jersey guard Jason Kidd, who will visit the Spurs on Sunday.

Dallas does not have salary cap room to make a marketplace offer to a premier free agent. Still, it will court a few in hopes it could then arrange a sign-and-trade arrangement with the player's former team.

"We have spoken to J.O.'s reps and are working to set a time for him to visit Dallas," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban said via e-mail on Tuesday. "We will see what happens from there."

The Pacers' front office spent the NBA's opening day for negotiations making contact with representatives for O'Neal and their other primary free agents, Reggie Miller and Brad Miller, to express their interest.

"We talked to the appropriate parties and had preliminary conversations," Morway said. "Everything went well."

Coach Isiah Thomas, meanwhile, called all three players at midnight Tuesday to reiterate the team's commitment to them.

O'Neal has been unavailable for comment since the day after the season ended. Agent Arn Tellem, who represents O'Neal and Reggie Miller, also was unavailable Tuesday.

Brad Miller's agent, Mark Bartelstein, said his client would "lay low" the next couple of weeks and allow the process to play out. The center said after the season he wanted to see what O'Neal does before making a decision.

"Brad has great feelings for Indiana and the Pacers," said Bartelstein. "We've talked to Donnie (Walsh, Pacers president) and he's expressed a desire to have Brad back there, so that's easily the most obvious thing going on.

"The Pacers are a great organization. We just have to see what happens. I think Brad would love to stay put in Indiana. At the same time, we have to let the entire process run its course before making any decisions."

Brad Miller is frequently listed as a secondary free-agent target for other teams. The six-year veteran center was an All-Star for the first time last season, when he was paid $5.3 million. He'll likely command a salary increase, but not the maximum contract O'Neal is expected to receive.

Brad Miller, a Kendallville, Ind., native who attended Purdue, jokingly told Walsh he wanted to sign a contract extension as soon as he was acquired in a trade with Chicago in February 2002. Thomas said Brad Miller should still feel that way.

"Very rarely does a guy find that (perfect) spot for himself in the NBA," Thomas said. "Brad's on a good team, in a great town. And we run a good system for him, one with players around him that really complement him. He's also with a coach who believes in him. I just think everything works for Brad here."

www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/054829-5053-094.html (http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/054829-5053-094.html)

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 12:46 AM
Holy shit. Please God please...

AHF

junglespur
07-02-2003, 12:49 AM
Losing O'Neal not an option for Pacers


July 1, 2003


What if he doesn't come back? What if Jermaine O'Neal decides to take less money and move to San Antonio or some other city?

Well, it wouldn't be pretty.

Your Indiana Pacers wouldn't be the same, at least not competitively. And we're not talking about a half-season funk here; we're talking about falling back to the rebuilding stage. We're talking about trying to re-establish an identity.

As the NBA's free-agent negotiation period begins today, Indiana fans have to know what really is at stake with O'Neal and the Pacers.

Re-signing O'Neal isn't just one of those moves that would be good, a move that would help the franchise continue to go forward; what it is, is an absolute necessity. Nothing less.

Re-signing O'Neal is a necessity for next year, when the team is making what should be an extended postseason run. It is a necessity for the years after that, when the Pacers are trying to stay near the upper echelon in the Eastern Conference.

This is every bit as big as -- if not bigger than -- the Colts' need to keep quarterback Peyton Manning.

Losing O'Neal to free agency means the Pacers would have no marquee player. It would mean there would be no top-tier player to command double teams, which helps create numerous opportunities for other players.

Losing O'Neal means there would be no dominant inside presence. Brad Miller is solid -- and, by the way, the Pacers need to re-sign him, too -- but at 7 feet, he does not block shots, and his best scoring chances come on 15-foot jump shots.

Losing O'Neal also means there would be no Pacer to shine in the commercial/endorsement game. Having a player who is successful in that area has a tendency to trickle over to team success at the ticket office.

In truth, Ron Artest is this team's best player, pound-for-pound. He does too many things well, especially the tough things. But folks aren't lining up to ask Artest to pitch their products, and potential season-ticket holders might not know how many games they'll see the emotionally erratic Artest play at Conseco Fieldhouse.

The Pacers simply have to re-sign O'Neal.

Give the team credit, though. It seems determined to continue to make O'Neal feel wanted and needed, particularly since the NBA's version of the recruiting season has started.

Actually, team president Donnie Walsh and coach Isiah Thomas have done that for the past few years. O'Neal has been the focus of the offense. Thomas has frequently given O'Neal, not always the legendary Reggie Miller, the chance to take the game-winning shot.

Would the Pacers dry up and become the Clippers if they fail to re-sign O'Neal?

Not quite. There's still plenty of "talent" on the roster. Al Harrington eventually can be an All-Star. Artest's ability is unquestioned.

But neither of them is O'Neal.

Neither of them is simultaneously that smooth and that strong with post moves that truly are unstoppable. Neither of them has the ability to single-handedly lift this franchise into a winnable postseason fight with a Western Conference heavyweight.

And isn't that what all the patience and mentoring have been about since the Pacers made the NBA Finals in 2000?

Without O'Neal, the Pacers don't make a Finals trip again for a very long time, if ever.

After investing so much, this organization simply cannot afford that.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C. Jemal Horton is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star. Contact him at 1-317-444-6514 or via e-mail at [email protected]

www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/054662-1483-036.html (http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/054662-1483-036.html)

scott
07-02-2003, 12:50 AM
ESPN Poll (just showed on SportsCenter)

Which player is a better fit for the Spurs:

Jermaine O'Neal 69.9%

Jason Kidd 30.1%

Votes: around 60k

Hear that Jermaine... it's the sound of your own destiny calling.

SpursWoman
07-02-2003, 12:58 AM
Welcome to the forum, junglespur...and thanks for the articles. :)



It's the second one that has me concerned. Aside from being a perennial All Star in the East, "da man" on his team, etc....how susceptible to a guilt trip like that will Jermaine be?

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 01:02 AM
We need to get those Dixie Flag people to make a 100 ft banner of Jermaine and Tim holding championship trophies in Spurs jerseys and hang it off the Tower of Americas.

That, and kidnap him and make him sign at 12:01 on July 16.

I'm glad he's coming to visit, but I hope we're not gonna get played, and it bugs me it also looks like the Mavs will get a visit.

Looks like the backup plan is to grab Brad Miller and Karl Malone?

AHF

scott
07-02-2003, 01:03 AM
We need a campaign similar to what Orlando threw at Tim for Jermaine.

I wish Pop and RC would realize how much great he would be as a Spur (with no massive overhauls of the roster necessary).

KoriEllis
07-02-2003, 01:22 AM
I like it that Jermaine is coming after Kidd.

Some other sites are saying that Jermaine is only coming as a smokescreen to keep Thorn and NJ off their back regarding the tampering. And they only schedule it because Jermaine was already coming to Texas to see Dallas. But that's crap. He doesn't even have a scheduled day with the Mavs yet.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 01:24 AM
As long as they sign one. That's what matters.

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 01:29 AM
Well Kori let's hope they start out the off-season 0-2.

They already whiffed on draft night jocking a big man.

I also don't see how this would be a diversionary tactic, or how it would work, Kidd and TD have flirted in the press the last two years and Kidd's the one who opened his mouth on draft night, it's not like it's some secret.

AHF

MrCarmenE
07-02-2003, 01:35 AM
O'Neal is no smokescreen.

The schedule of players visits has nothing to do with the Spurs priority list.

They contacted several free agents today, including Brand (my personal favorite and according to my source the coaches also) and the schedule is falling into place according to how free agents feel they can or will visit.

So don't get overly excited over who is coming or when.

But do be happy over the fact that free agents are interested in the spurs and will finally give the organization some attention.

KoriEllis
07-02-2003, 01:37 AM
Jesse, Brand is timvp's favorite option as well. Can you do me a favor and post how you think it might be conceivable to get him into a Spurs uni in our Brand thread?

(I'll bump the thread right now).

Thanks.

Jimcs50
07-02-2003, 01:38 AM
I've tetered on the fence between who I thought was the better fit for us- Brand or O'Neal... perhaps the fact Jermaine is coming is clouding my judgement, but for some reason I have Jermaine just ahead of Elton right now (whereas Elton has had the slight lead for weeks).

The more I think of it, the more I think Jermaine might be the better fit. He allows us to diversify our play calling while staying within the same basic offense.

Plus, he would be a great trailer (better than Timmy) on the breaks, following Tony, Manu, and Jack for the nice follow up jam or ally-oop.

OMG!! Scott, afterall the crap you gave me, about me thinking O'Neal is better for Spurs than Brand, now you turncoat on me??? I was just starting to see your side and start to like Brand a least a little more than previously, and you change your mind....I guess all my solid arguements paid off, eh? :)

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 01:48 AM
Thanks MrCarmen,

I appreciate you sharing some insight with us over here.

Brand's also my favorite, but (at least from my uninformed view) Jermaine appears to be easier to get out of Indy (money) than Elton (restricted) does out of LA, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on how we could pull it off.

AHF

timvp
07-02-2003, 02:20 AM
This is the first step.

Getting Jermaine O'Neal to the Spurs would be the greatest step towards having a dynasty.

The Spurs would have two of the top defenders and two of the top low post players in the game.





We need God Almighty to make this happen.

:angel

Bandit2981
07-02-2003, 02:47 AM
i think the question isnt whether or not the spurs want him, but rather does he want to play here? just saying 'we need to sign o'neal' doesnt magically get it done, remember that he will lose about 30 million if he signs here as opposed to indy...it would be great to get him though

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 02:56 AM
He's not losing 30 million.

Once the state income tax parasites get done with him up in Indy he'd only be making about 6 million more.

Hardly cut and dry.

AHF

ChumpDumper
07-02-2003, 03:10 AM
Give Indy all our picks next season, they'll bite on an S&T.

Bandit2981
07-02-2003, 03:12 AM
how high is the indiana state income tax?

T Park Num 9
07-02-2003, 03:51 AM
a lot higher than the one in Texas :p

timvp
07-02-2003, 04:41 AM
Flat 3.4%

--Kori


(BTW, California is 9.3% at its highest.)

Pooh
07-02-2003, 05:17 AM
He'll do like Duncan did in 2000. Come down soak up the hospitality, tour the Spurs facilities and then do the right thing and sign the seven year deal with the Pacers.

Better to stay in the East and be the dominant force, rather than be the sixth or seventh best player in the West, behind Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, KG, CWebb, Dirk, etc.

Jermaine will be a gracious visitor then head back to Indiana where he belongs and be the savor to the franchise while the Spurs take Kidd.

ChumpDumper
07-02-2003, 05:20 AM
He'll do like Duncan did in 2000.

Wait for David Robinson to fly in from Hawaii and talk him out of changing teams?

Pooh
07-02-2003, 05:25 AM
O'Neal is smart enough not to have to rely on someone whose wife demands that he travel across the country to get the star player to stay with their team.

Every Spurs fan should bow before David Robinson's wife to sending him on the plane from Hawaii to Texas, convincing Duncan to stay.

You're better off getting a Brad Miller (who will probably stay in Indy as well as JO) or Alonzo Mourning, who actually might be a better fit for the Spurs.

ChumpDumper
07-02-2003, 05:28 AM
Worked out pretty well for everybody, didn't it?

Pooh
07-02-2003, 05:33 AM
Unfortunately for Spurs fans, lightening doesn't strike twice. David Robinson is no longer a Spur. The only player who will talk to JO will probably be Reggie Miller, the heart and soul of the Pacers.

So this time, history will have the reverse effect on the Spurs. Remember good doesn't always win.

ChumpDumper
07-02-2003, 05:35 AM
Reggie will be lucky if he plays next season.

F7
07-02-2003, 08:26 AM
Well, I live in Indianapolis.. and let me tell you... ain't nothin special goin on down here.. unless you like corn and shitty winters.

GrandeDavid
07-02-2003, 09:13 AM
Interestingly, in one of those articles it mentions that Brad Miller, another potential SA target, at seven feet tall is NOT a shot blocker and scores mainly from around 15 feet out. The Spurs need someone to bang around inside, get boards and block shots to really complement Tim.

Regarding OŽNeal, I didn't realize that the Pacers could essentially offer around $30 million more to him for staying in Indy. Not that O'Neal will exactly become a poor man in San Antonio, but O'Neal's real championship desire, loyalty to the franchise that rebirthed his career and his money hungriness will be the determining factors, hopefully the first mentioned being the primary deciding factor. Also, WILL O'Neal defer to Tim so willingly, if need be? I really don't know much about Jermaine O'Neal's internal tickings but did see him suck in the World Championships and have seen him have big moments in the NBA.

Overall, I hope we sign him, but would take Elton Brand over him.

spurster
07-02-2003, 10:04 AM
It's true that Brad Miller is not a shotblocker, but he was 16th in rebounds, and you don't get that by hanging around 15 feet from the basket.

Landing Brand would probably be better for the NBA as a whole. If Jermaine or Kidd (or even B. Miller) comes, that just makes the East a little bit weaker.

Ghost Writer
07-02-2003, 10:36 AM
I believe Popovich loves Tony Parker and would much rather replace David Robinson with an All-Star big man than resort to Jason Kidd.

In fact, you may recall reading about Popovich calling Chris Webber and begging him to sign with the Spurs back in the summer of 2001 when Robinson was without a contract.

Make it happen, Pop. Get O'neal, a player who endorsed you during the World Championships last summer.

:cooldevil

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 10:38 AM
Is Cuban the most irritating little media whore ever? What a punk. Knows he has no hope in hell of signing Jermaine or Kidd for that matter but tries to lure then to Dallas anyway. As if Dallas is actually a player this year (or any year). What a tool.

How would you feel if you were one of the big 3(4) in Dallas knowing that your boss essentially views you as expendable at any time so he can court the flavor of the month during the FA period every year?

He's going to end up with egg all over his face just like he did with Rashard last year.

Ghost Writer
07-02-2003, 11:47 AM
TwoHandJam, you need to realize that Cuban will do everything in his power to secure a title for Dallas. To him, it is a business. In his own words, "I am loyal to the ring."

I respect that and I am sure his players do, too.

:cooldevil

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 12:00 PM
You respect the fact that he toys with trading his core players every year while acting like a clown who still hasn't learned that defense wins championships? I doubt his players appreciate feeling threatened by his flirtations with big name FA's like O'Neal and Kidd who would clearly disrupt their current nucleus. How many playoff exits must he endure before it sinks in?

Let's face it, if Cuban was clearly loyal to the ring, he could have signed some hardnosed mid level FAs to shore up the interior, rebound and play defense and would have won some rings by now. Instead, he decides to court retards like NVE and unnecessary players like Rashard Lewis so he can satify his media spotlight cravings.

Ghost Writer
07-02-2003, 12:13 PM
Um, no.

Cuban has assembled the most talented group of stars of any team in the NBA and unlike Portland, these are stand-up guys who also know how to win.

If Nowitski doesn;t go down in the playoffs, we might not be a two-time champion today.

Believe me, Cuban isn't trying to get Kidd or O'Neal to get his name in the headlines. He wants the best players on his team.

As far as not looking for defenders, how many stars defenders are out there these days? Who was Cuban supposed to bring in?

I'm sorry, but if it's a choice between Nick Van Exel or Ira Newble, I'm going with NVE.

And Cuban did bring in tough defenders like Popeye Jones and Raja Bell. It's tough to justify playing them over Dirk Nowitski or Michael Finley.

You can't fault a guy who will do whatever it takes to win.

Unlike the Spurs, Cuban did not have the good fortune of two number 1 picks that yeilded two all-NBA 7-foot defenders.

Cuban has manufactured his luck.

Dallas tied the Spurs for the best record in the NBA last season.

He's doing something right and with his resources and willingness to do whatever it takes to bring in the right mix, I won't be surprised if Dallas gets it right under his regime.

Don't be jealous.

Be happy the Spurs have gotten lucky in the draft!

:cooldevil

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 12:55 PM
Give me a break about Nowitzki going down in playoffs. You seem to forget that we were winning that game by 15 points when he went down. Not to mention that if Sacramento is healthy that his squad would have been playing golf in round 2 anyhow. Hell, they almost made history blowing a 3-0 lead to portland. I hardly call that group a bunch of stand up guys who know how to win.

Cuban may want to win but his choices have been less than inspired. It makes little difference if you are a great team during the regular season but are built to fail in the playoffs. Choices like NVE with his retarded shot selection are what're sinking them in the postseason. You mention Newble vs. NVE but I'll take Newble on that team if he's all that's available to give me a little hard nosed defense. That team needs anything but more offense. Instead of a Brian Grant or PJ Brown or Kurt Thomas you're telling me that Popeye Jones and Raja Bell = interior defense? Please.

And don't tell me Cuban couldn't have brokered a trade for guys like these. Any guy who can find a way to get rid of a contract like Howard's can find a way to get some interior presence.

picnroll
07-02-2003, 01:04 PM
At this point if I'm a FA like Kidd or O'Neal looking at Dallas, given Cuban's short history, I have to be wondering "am I going to be there one year and then Cuban use me as the bait in a S&T offer for a guy like KG or Kobe next year when they're on the market and some team with cap space comes after them?" Cuban has to be developing a rep.

kohai
07-02-2003, 01:09 PM
Ghost, I don't think people are jealous. Dallas has had essentially the SAME TEAM for what, four years now? It's obvious that the run'n'gun thing is never going to win the title. Cuban keeps on saying that they're going to bring in the right guys and some defenders, and when they do, they rot on the bench. I think the worst thing that happened to the Dallas franchise was this chimera of a deep playoff run. They need to get rid of Nellie, and get someone like JVG or Riley that will MAKE them play some fucking defense. Now they can't, because they made the WCF.


If Nowitski doesn;t go down in the playoffs, we might not be a two-time champion today.

Yeah, and if LA drops their last regular season game instead of winning it, Dallas goes out in the first round, humiliated by the Lakers. Dallas got the only first round matchup that would allow them to advance, and they still almost screwed it up. They then caught their own break when CWebb went down. This is not a title contending franchise. This is a franchise balancing on the line between the top half and the bottom half of the WC playoff draw. Phoenix could easily replace them in the top four.

Ghost Writer
07-02-2003, 01:33 PM
TwoHandJam, the Spurs were lucky to land two all-NBA 7-foot defenders with #1 picks. Cuban has done an excellent job putting a title contender together via trades and free agent signings.

When the right deal comes along, Cuban will get a defensive stopper, but those are scarce when it comes to stars. No one is willing to deal a star who happens to be a superior defender.

To suggest that Cuban is inviting Kidd and O'Neal to check out Dallas to get his name in the headlines is preposterous. Acting like Dallas has not gotten closer to a title every year since Cuban took over is absurd.

khoai, the Mavericks roster undergoes changes season to season. Wake up.


Stop hating.

:cooldevil

scott
07-02-2003, 02:07 PM
I give Cubes his props. The dude put a team together from nothing without the aid of #1 picks or salary cap room.

He is indeed loyal to the ring. The Mavs are his favorite team- and he has the luxury of doing what we all wish we could- own and manage our favorite teams.

I think he is starting to realize you can't win championships with the run and gun style, and that is why you see him making some noise regarding some pretty significant shake ups to his team.

I disagree that if Dirk doesn't get hurt we might not be champs (since the Mavs actually played better without Dirk, IMO)- but I think the Mavs deserve a lot more credit than they get... after all, this team is only about 4-5 years removed from lottery land.

Jimcs50
07-02-2003, 02:23 PM
Hi Scott, you schitzoid. :) So you admitted that I was right........I still have never been wrong..Yessss!

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 03:08 PM
TwoHandJam, the Spurs were lucky to land two all-NBA 7-foot defenders with #1 picks. Cuban has done an excellent job putting a title contender together via trades and free agent signings.

Cuban has improved his team's performance somewhat, sure. But in the last 3-4 years I don't think they've improved much as a serious contender. Regular season improvement means little to nothing if your team can't hang in the postseason.


When the right deal comes along, Cuban will get a defensive stopper, but those are scarce when it comes to stars. No one is willing to deal a star who happens to be a superior defender.
Defensive stopper does not equal a star, witness Bruce Bowen. The names I listed before aren't true stars. That's part of the Cuban's problem, maybe he thinks he needs stars but all he really needs are big bodies who can board and play some defense. Not Raef, not NVE, not chasing Rashard Lewis.

Cuban doesn't "wait for the right deal to come along". That isn't his MO. He pulls the trigger whenever he feels like it caring nothing for the luxury tax or trading whatever talent he can part with. If he really wanted a PJ Brown or Kurt Thomas or Brian Grant type player, he could have signed one in the past few years he's been dicking around.


To suggest that Cuban is inviting Kidd and O'Neal to check out Dallas to get his name in the headlines is preposterous. It is? What chance does he honestly have of signing either of these two? Neither of them has even comitted to a firm date with him based on what I've read. Why should they have any interest? He can't force their teams into a S&T and he doesn't have nearly enough cash to pay them what they're worth. They're probably only humoring him since they'll be in SA regardless and Dallas is close by.


Acting like Dallas has not gotten closer to a title every year since Cuban took over is absurd.The only reason they made the WCF this year is due to them not encountering the Lakers or a healthy SAC earlier. They barely squeaked by the perenially imploding Blazers. They have not improved in the postseason, where it counts in years and they won't until Cuban wakes the **** up and embraces defense.

timvp
07-02-2003, 03:12 PM
You got to give Cuban props for caring. He's brought the Mavs a long way.

He's still annoying and loves media attention. No one can deny that.

The less I see of Cuban's switch-hitting mug, the better ... not that there's anything wrong with that batting preference.


P.S.

Shii--ii-iii-iit, I'd take one Jermaine O'Neal over two Jason Kidds.

GrandeDavid
07-02-2003, 03:56 PM
I have absolutely no criticism to share on Cuban because I could care as much about the Mavs as I could about the Raptors. I do think that with or without Nowitski the Spurs are a better team, in or out of the playoffs. Dallas should think about getting serious and tough about their inside game because last I checked the Spurs were 8-3 against the Mavs in their two playoff series in the "Dallas-emergence-from-the-league-sewer" era. I'd love to see San Antonio and Dallas' all time head-to-head record, both in playoffs and in regular season. I know that the Spurs are 2-0 in championship series and will be 3-0 this time next year.

scott
07-02-2003, 04:35 PM
Jim,

If you go back and read my comment- I've always said Elton and Jermaine are about as close to equal as possible. I've also said several times that I had switched back and forth on which was better. I never said you were wrong for thinking Jermaine was the better choice of the two.

I did, however, say you were wrong in comparing Elton Brand with Malik Rose. :)

Ghost Writer
07-02-2003, 04:42 PM
TwoHand, Cuban has taken the Mavs from a perennial lottery team to a talent-laden Western Conference Finals team in under five years.

He's tried to win with stars regardless of their defensive prowess and has admitted that he needs the team to play more defense.

Cuban may not land O'Neal or Kidd, but at least he is out there trying, unlike the other capped-out teams in the NBA.

Stop hating on him like a jealous little biyatch. Not every team can be fortunate enough to win two lotteries in the same decade, pal.

:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-02-2003, 05:13 PM
Scott, I said they were the same in that they are overachievers, having to overcome their height with determination, just as Barkley and Rodman before them....there is nothing wrong with that, I love all those guys, but I just want some tall tower to replace a tall tower.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 05:43 PM
Ghost, get off Cuban's jock already and realize that he's had more than enough time to address the team's defensive shortcomings. The nucleus of Nash, Finley and Dirk have been in place for a while and they should be enough to win a championship with provided they are surrounded by better interior defense.

Raef and Bradley aren't going to cut it. Nellie's run n' gun schemes aren't going to cut it. Signing NVE, Popeye and lusting after Rashard is just plain stupid.

Geez, even you could have done a better job. :moon

Recognize.

T Park Num 9
07-02-2003, 05:55 PM
A slower and older 15 minute a game Alonzo Mourning isnt going to help them either.


The Mavericks need defense. BAD.

Raja Bell IMO didnt get enough playing time.

Nash shouldve sat a little more and Van Exel and Bell who are better defenders shoulda played.

Oh well,

we kicked there ass, they sucked end of story.

Spurminator
07-02-2003, 05:59 PM
At the time, Cuban made a good trade to land Raef and NVE. Raef's numbers were bloated because he played in Denver, but I think most people expected him to be a semi-legitimate inside presence for the Mavs. I doubt anyone predicted that he would be a total bust. He was one of the league leaders in BPG with the Nugs.

And the fact that they're hard up for Mourning shows that their priorities are once again on the defensive end this offseason, even if that's a risky move. The only bad move I can think of was signing Bradley to such a big contract, but only because they signed him for too much. Keeping him around wasn't necessarily a bad idea.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 05:59 PM
Here's an interesting article talking about Cuban-Nelson. I highlighted a part I thought was relevant. I can tell you that if Cuban had signed Grant, they could have been a serious contender.

link (http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/sports/6217384.htm)

Cuban-Nelson tiff looks like real deal
By Richie Whitt
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

DALLAS - Signed.

Sealed.

Strained?

Though Mavericks owner Mark Cuban and coach Don Nelson finally agreed on a new contract, their personal relationship these days is becoming less and less agreeable. We're not talking Jimmy-Jerry just yet, but the two have passed chilly, rounded for separation and are gaining speed toward rift.

It's the end result, of course, of a season-long cloud of insecurity that hung over Nelson, punctuated by last-minute haggling over money Monday night. The coach, remember, wanted an extension way back in September. Instead, it didn't get done until a franchise-record 60 wins in the regular season, until pushing the eventual champion San Antonio Spurs to six games in the Western Conference Finals, and until differences over deferred millions shoved negotiations smack against the deadline for his old deal to officially expire.

"Things never got ugly," Cuban said in a Tuesday night e-mail. "There was some drama, but far, far less than other deals this size I have done. Nellie was great to deal with. His lawyers were not quite as great."

For now, the smoke has cleared. Because Nelson will serve the dual roles of coach and general manager through the 2005-06 season.

But where there's smoke, there's fire. Because although their team is heading due north toward elitesville, the Cuban-Nelson relationship is heading south.

And how can it not be after the edgy environment Cuban cultivated?

Nelson, the NBA's third-winningest coach and a future Hall of Famer, was reduced to a lame duck forced to coach on commission. He called the situation "uncomfortable" and admitted he put extra pressure on himself in the regular season.

Cuban, meanwhile, defends his strategy via the bottom line. A little stress can be a positive motivator, he said. The Mavs won more games than any team in franchise history, and Nelson crept within two games of the NBA Finals, the closest he's been in his 25-year coaching career.

Welcome to the philosophical fork in the road.

Nelson thinks he succeeded despite his coaching uncertainty; Cuban thinks Nelson succeeded directly because of it.

As far back as last summer the two begin to knock noggins. On the pursuit of free agents Rashard Lewis and Keon Clark. And last season on the acquisition of Brian Grant, whom Nelson thought would fortify his team for a playoff run, but Cuban thought would prematurely give the Mavs a roster of overpaid over-the-hillers. Even in the West finals, Nelson and Cuban dove into healthy debates on whether injured star Dirk Nowitzki should return to the court.

As the year progressed, their conversations dwindled. Publicly, it was because Cuban had become so busy. But privately, it was because neither much cared to hear what the other had to say. While Nelson rolled his eyes about his owner trying to get involved in X's and O's and force-feeding his coaching staff reams of data from a University of Indiana statistician, Cuban grumbled that his coach rarely admitted mistakes and wouldn't break old habits on the floor or in his thinking.

In other words, Cuban was trying to teach new tricks to a 63-year-old dog convinced he invented barking. What problems?

Both men have big egos. Thankfully, they have bigger brains. They realize, unlike the divorced Cowboys duo, that a public personality dispute could run the Mavericks' train right off the tracks.

Cuban knows he needs Nelson to take his team over the hump. And Nelson knows he needs the Mavericks, who are only an Alonzo Mourning puzzle piece from finally giving him his first trip to the NBA Finals.

The relationship is in a delicate balance. Too little, or even too much, success and the lid could blow. As long as the Mavs continue to make steady, significant progress, the two will publicly keep the peace while privately keeping their distance.

Nelson flew to his off-season home in Maui on Tuesday night and answered questions about any lingering ill will with a simple "I'm signed."

Cuban characterized their relationship only by addressing the tone of the contentious process.

"Negotiations can have their ups and downs," he said. "But when they are done, they are done."

The deal is indeed done.

But so, too, is the damage.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 06:04 PM
At the time, Cuban made a good trade to land Raef and NVE. Raef's numbers were bloated because he played in Denver, but I think most people expected him to be a semi-legitimate inside presence for the Mavs. I doubt anyone predicted that he would be a total bust. He was one of the league leaders in BPG with the Nugs.

Raef was never known to want to mix it up in the paint. He was a stupid signing IMO. A good shotblocker from the weak side but not an interior presence or a great rebounder. He likes to shoot the 3 for chrissakes, that's how much time he spends in the paint.

I'll admit that the fact that the Mavs are starting to concentrate more on D is scary, the fact that it took them so long is just plain stupid.

Walton Buys Off Me
07-02-2003, 06:08 PM
I completely agree with TwoHandJamon this one.

The way I see it, yes Mark Cuban is a passionate, dedicated owner that is trying to better his team and yes this is a business where personal relationships must take the back seat to the greater good of the team. However, by courting free agents with sign-and-trade scenarios each summer, not to mention the countless trade rumors that circulate around Dallas during the regular season, players will quickly realize that signing a long term deal with Mark Cuban doesn't mean that you won't be replaced in a heartbeat if someone catches your owner's eye the following summer.

Furthermore, in giving Raef Lafrentz a gargantuan deal two years ago, Cuban basically put himself out of the running for years to come. That is not intelligent. That is not good business. The Spurs are in the position they're in today because they were 1. lucky by getting the first pick and 2. extremely intelligent and patient (two qualities Cuban does not possess) in building a competitive team year-in, year-out.

And lastly, if the Spurs were not the frontrunners in this year's free agent pool, I have a strong feeling we wouldn't be hearing from Mark Cuban in regards to Jason Kidd and Jermaine O'Neal. He's being competitive, he recognizes his chances of winning a ring go from slim to none if we sign a max guy this summer and wants to do everything in his power to prevent the rich from getting richer.

He'll lose and then make a big deal out of signing Mourning........like that will make a difference.

Spurminator
07-02-2003, 06:12 PM
Did the Mavs resign Raef? I thought he was still on the contract given to him by Denver. (EDIT: NM, they did last year)

My main point is that they HAVE been focusing on defense, whether or not it has been successful. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but they traded Juwan for Raef for the sole purpose of upgrading defense. They've hung onto Bradley for defense. This year, they're looking at Mourning.

Probably the biggest problem they have is that Nelly is not a good defensive coach. But if the players you have are not good defensive players, it's better to have a great offensive coach than a defensive coach. Not even the greatest defensive guru could make Dirk Nowitzki a good defender.

Ghost Writer
07-02-2003, 06:18 PM
Two Hand, you are impossible.

Five years ago, the Mavericks were the laughingstock of the NBA.

Today, they boast the most talent-laden contender and were eliminated by the eventual champions in the Western Conference Finals.

Cuban has done this exclusively through trades and free agent signings, not the dumb luck of two ping-pong balls.

You act like Cuban's been ignoring defense for 20 years or he's running the team like Donald Sterling.

You are just jealous of an owner who takes an active role in spending money and doing whatever it takes to build a contender.

You f'ing recognize.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 06:29 PM
Cuban's been a Godsend for that franchise though you do wonder what it says about Nellie's work there prior to Cuban taking over. That team played like crap.

Anyways, yes, Cuban has had enough time to address the Mavs' primary deficiency.

Leave it to GhostWhiner to have his mouth all over the flashy Cuban's nuts and be so critical of the Spurs who just won a title and can sign a great player outright. You have to love a true fan like him. Yeah.

Bandit2981
07-02-2003, 06:30 PM
if o'neal came, would he play center or would tim move to that spot? why does tim dislike playing center so much anyways?

scott
07-02-2003, 08:19 PM
http://home.satx.rr.com/olsonfam/JO.jpg

junglespur
07-02-2003, 08:51 PM
Pacers' Walsh trying to hold onto key players
MICHAEL MAROT
Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS - Donnie Walsh wants to keep the Indiana Pacers together.

He plans to re-sign All-Stars Jermaine O'Neal and Brad Miller along with former All-Star Reggie Miller - the heart of the team. Then the Pacers president hopes to find a couple of other players to plug gaps.

Sounds simple. Implementing it may not be as easy.

Walsh confirmed Wednesday that O'Neal already has scheduled visits to San Antonio and Dallas. Brad Miller's agent said his client also was considering other teams.

To Walsh, it's not time to panic. It's just part of the process.

"I don't make too much of that," he said of O'Neal's schedule. "Players only go through unrestricted free agency a few times in their career so it makes sense to see what's out there."

Walsh has already started making his pitches even though players cannot sign with another team until July 16.

He said he contacted both players' agents Tuesday night after returning from a weeklong absence because of his granddaughter's death. Walsh also said he wanted to meet with the players personally - especially O'Neal, who has blossomed into an All-Star the last two seasons.

At 25, O'Neal appears to be the cornerstone of the Pacers' future. He averaged 19.0 and 20.8 points the last two seasons and represented the United States on its national team.

He has become the Pacers' primary inside threat, and his presence helped Brad Miller develop into a first-time All-Star last season.

Together, the one-two punch of O'Neal and Brad Miller made the Pacers one of the Eastern Conference's top teams during the first half of last season. Although Indiana faded in the season's second half, Walsh doesn't want to take any chances on rebuilding without his best inside players.

In making his case for O'Neal and Miller to stay, Walsh plans to stress that the Pacers could pay more to keep them under the NBA's salary cap rules. He also expects to emphasize the basketball tradition in Indiana and the fact that the Pacers have proven they can win.

"Other people will try to sell the beach or the sunshine or that it's a great place to live," Walsh said. "But we think we have the whole package here."

Miller, who grew up in northeast Indiana and played at Purdue, likes playing in his home state but still intends to evaluate his options.

"We know the Pacers and what they have," agent Mark Bartlestein said. "We feel good about what our options are. We have a great feeling toward the Pacers. Brad really likes it there."

The Pacers have another option now in second-round pick James Jones.

Jones played small forward at Miami. But with a glut of forwards already on the roster, the Pacers hope Jones can make the switch to shooting guard.

To make it in the NBA, Jones acknowledges he must improve his ball-handling skills and get stronger. But if the Pacers lose any key free agents, Jones could find himself staying at small forward.

"Any transition is difficult, but I'll work at it," he said. "If they're confident in me, I'm sure I'll make whatever move they want me to make."

Pacers guard Tim Hardaway also is a free agent, and his agent, Henry Thomas, said his client would love to play another year for the Pacers. Walsh did not say whether Hardaway fit into his plan.

But Walsh would like a veteran guard who can help stabilize a young team. Walsh has said he would like a penetrator and a shooter, perhaps someone like Hardaway or Gary Payton.

"Certainly, he's a guy you'd have to look at because he's a great player," Walsh said of Payton. "He's a guy we'll follow through the process."

A phone message left Wednesday at the office of Arn Tellem, the agent for O'Neal and Reggie Miller, was not returned.

But Walsh remains confident that all three free agents will return to the Pacers next season.

"We'll try to get agreements through the free agency period but there will be other teams involved, so you never know how it's going to go," Walsh said. "But I feel good about our chances."
www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/6221399.htm

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 08:53 PM
I think that JO'Neal would really like to come to SA. I think the hardest part for him would be to leave the Pacers high and dry. Maybe he's still pissed about how his teammates acted during the Boston series, but you have to think the young man will feel some responsibility for what happens to the franchise and some of the people there if he should bolt.

The Spurs have to do a good job selling him on what he would have in SA, as well as be understanding about what he would face by leaving the Pacers. It's not an easy thing. He immediately becomes Public Enemy No. 1 in Indianapolis. That might not seem like much but for a young guy like him but it will be hard. He'll be labelled a traitor. Dude is just like everyone else. You don't want to hear shit said about you.

So far the arguments I've seen why he will stay in Indianapolis from talking heads on TV are all based on the assumption that every player wants to be the man and that he has that organization in the palm of his hand. It's more an automatic assumption about what every player wants than an actual assessment of the situation. Perhaps he doesn't want that. Perhaps he actually wants to win. Maybe he hates Indiana winters. Who knows?

I think the hardest thing for the Spurs will be to explain why it was cool for TD to stay but why JO should leave.

The $$$ differential is not the difference maker the media seems to think it is...should JO say he has decided to be a Spur then I seriously doubt that the Pacers would not take a couple of picks back in order to sign and trade him.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 09:07 PM
Spurs also need to put on a killer presentation. Show him some love. Make sure he gets to talk with Ice, DRob, and TD as well as the rest of the team who's returning.

Make sure they take care of his family, friends, and ladyfriend while they are in SA.

The potential pairing of the 24 year old Mr. O'Neal with the 27 year old Mr. Duncan is unique. They can essentially dominate the league for the next 8 to 10 years.

Jimcs50
07-02-2003, 09:32 PM
Make sure they take care of his family, friends, and ladyfriend while they are in SA.


Marcus, no worries....I will take care of the ladyfriend.:)

Pooh
07-02-2003, 10:00 PM
Then she'll be heading back to Indy high and dry....haha. Jermaine is and will always be a Pacer, deal with it and take Zoe and Kidd

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 10:19 PM
Two Hand, you are impossible.

Five years ago, the Mavericks were the laughingstock of the NBA.

Today, they boast the most talent-laden contender and were eliminated by the eventual champions in the Western Conference Finals.

As I said twice before, the Mavs have improved but these are mostly regular season improvements. They are destined to never make it past the second round until they address their interior defense. The only reason they got past the Kings was because Webber went down. About the only teams they could beat in the postseason would be Utah, Portland and maybe the Suns.


Cuban has done this exclusively through trades and free agent signings, not the dumb luck of two ping-pong balls.

You act like Cuban's been ignoring defense for 20 years or he's running the team like Donald Sterling.
No, not 20 years but too long IMO. He is wasting the prime years of the big 3.


You are just jealous of an owner who takes an active role in spending money and doing whatever it takes to build a contender.

<Reese Witherspoon accent> Yeah, ok, what-ever </Reese Witherspoon accent> :rolleyes

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:23 PM
Yeah Ghost what Paul Allen has put together is a work of art.

timvp
07-03-2003, 01:18 AM
The Spurs have to do a good job selling him on what he would have in SA, as well as be understanding about what he would face by leaving the Pacers. It's not an easy thing. He immediately becomes Public Enemy No. 1 in Indianapolis. That might not seem like much but for a young guy like him but it will be hard. He'll be labelled a traitor. Dude is just like everyone else. You don't want to hear shit said about you.

Indeed.

The Spurs need to sell Jermaine on a dream. They need him to think that he's the missing to piece to a dynasty. They need to have Robinson there saying that he wants to pass the torch to him. They need the Iceman, Red McCombs, Santa Anna or whoever to come in and sell him on the city.

The key will be getting him to commit to playing in SA while he's here because once he goes back to Indiana, it will be human nature to stay there. That's what he knows.

Sell the dream.

goliath
07-03-2003, 02:26 AM
The Spurs video guy should put together a video package.

Show Magic and Kareem playing then holding the trophy.

Then Bird and Mchale.

Then Jordan and Pippen

Then Smuq and Kobe

Then Tim and Dave.

All superstar teammates. All 50 of the greatest ever. All champions.

Try to reinforce that all great teams, all dynastys, have two superstars.

Reinforce that he would be 1B to Tims 1A.

T Park Num 9
07-03-2003, 03:58 AM
My fingers have been crossed since July 1 12:01 AM.


If we could talk to Jermaine youd just tell him to use his head,

that with him here, that the team would be a IMIDIATE DYNASTY!!!!

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 04:12 AM
1 more time...would jermaine play center or PF? and anyone know why tim dislikes C so much? he would have to play that if brand came

Pooh
07-03-2003, 04:23 AM
O'Neal hates playing the center spot that is why B.Miller does it. They rotate from time to time, but O'Neal doesn't like it. Tim isn't going to want to play center so, just got after Brand and be done with it or get Alonzo, that is what you really need, a big person to bang heads with Shaq.

T Park Num 9
07-03-2003, 04:40 AM
Go after brand.


Nah,,, I think well go after Jermaine.


The fear of loosing Jermaine is showing!!!!:evil :evil :evil

Pooh
07-03-2003, 04:47 AM
Not worried a bit actually, JO's best place is in Indiana, period. Not here and playing second fiddle.

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 04:50 AM
starting a dynasty would get him all the publicity he needs...and i dont think it would really be a 2nd fiddle role, more like a duo...duncan and o'neal! sounds fearsome to me

Pooh
07-03-2003, 04:51 AM
O'Neal doesn't like to play center and neither does Tim.

Bandit2981
07-03-2003, 04:52 AM
isnt brand too small though? like 6'9 or something?

Truthsayer
07-03-2003, 06:39 AM
Defensive stopper? Defensive stopper! Defensive stopper?

When Pop got his defensive stopper in Bruce Bowen, you gave him nothing but grief. Now you give Nellie a pass because he hasn't been fortunate enough to find his defensive stopper?????????

Nice guy and Spurs fan you are,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but logical or consistent you are NOT!

GrandeDavid
07-03-2003, 09:46 AM
DeMarcus, I hear ya! I don't want to overestimate any man's loyalty, especially a pro athlete's "show me the money" loyalty, but one would seriously think that loyalty issues to the Pacers org. will be a major factor in JO's decision-making.

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-03-2003, 10:13 AM
O'Neal doesn't like to play center and neither does Tim.

I am so sick of hearing this.

In todays NBA, PF/C are virtually interchangeable positions. Both "play" center all the time if by that you mean they find thenselves guarding the other teams "center"...

no matter what you called it, a front court of Tim Duncan and Jermaine O'Neal would undoubtedly be scary dominant in the NBA even over a frontcourt of Shaq + ?...

travis2
07-03-2003, 10:20 AM
Hasn't anyone ever heard of a guard/wing/post offense?

Jimcs50
07-03-2003, 11:07 AM
Tim played"center" 4 yrs at Wake Forrest, he plays almost exlusively in the post area, he is not worried about this at all, we are talking semantics here...PF-center....they are interchangable.

lefty
09-14-2019, 12:00 AM
:lol

Millennial_Messiah
09-14-2019, 03:49 AM
Nice trip down memory lane...

Spurs really, really struck out hard in the 2003 offseason post-championship, probably worse than the Lakers did this year. Striking out on both O'Neal and Kidd, acquiescing to Rasho as their consolation prize... losing Stephen Jackson in his prime for free, hell they didn't even bother to re-sign Speedy Claxton. Just brainless on the part of PATFO that year. The only move they made that ultimately paid long-term dividends in the future was signing Robert Horry, though he was terrible his first year here.

And lol at the losers ITT who wanted Elton Brand from the Clippers. Dude was a glorified Malik Rose/Dejuan Blair, :lol

phxspurfan
09-14-2019, 03:34 PM
Ran into Jermaine O’Neal and his buddy Al Harrington in 03 in a Boston restaurant. Super gangsta dude

Millennial_Messiah
09-14-2019, 04:23 PM
Ran into Jermaine O’Neal and his buddy Al Harrington in 03 in a Boston restaurant. Super gangsta dude
April/May?

Thomas82
10-04-2019, 10:20 PM
I remember him saying that if he knew ahead of time that Isiah Thomas would be fired, he would have signed with the Spurs.

lefty
10-05-2019, 02:55 AM
I remember him saying that if he knew ahead of time that Isiah Thomas would be fired, he would have signed with the Spurs.
Damn you Larry Bird

Thomas82
10-06-2019, 08:54 AM
Damn you Larry Bird

Yeah, Larry Bird played him on that one.

daslicer
10-06-2019, 12:26 PM
I remember him saying that if he knew ahead of time that Isiah Thomas would be fired, he would have signed with the Spurs.

He confirmed it in a Slam Magazine interview several years ago. The reason he re-signed with the Pacers was because he viewed Isiah as a father figure and didn't want to turn his back o him. Bird promised him that he would keep Isiah but fired him immediately once he had Jermaine under contract.

RC_Drunkford
10-06-2019, 01:15 PM
Smart move by Bird. Spurs would've won at least 5 in a row. Damn

Thomas82
10-07-2019, 08:23 AM
He confirmed it in a Slam Magazine interview several years ago. The reason he re-signed with the Pacers was because he viewed Isiah as a father figure and didn't want to turn his back o him. Bird promised him that he would keep Isiah but fired him immediately once he had Jermaine under contract.

Yeah, that was a dirty move by Bird.

ambchang
10-07-2019, 08:45 AM
I can never figure out why players would ever gravitate towards that back stabbing incompetent racist Isiah Thomas.

Roscoe P. Coltrane
10-07-2019, 04:30 PM
Smart move by Bird. Spurs would've won at least 5 in a row. Damnnot with Pop coaching.

Roscoe P. Coltrane
10-07-2019, 04:31 PM
I can never figure out why players would ever gravitate towards that back stabbing incompetent racist Isiah Thomas. Probably because they are racist too.

daslicer
10-07-2019, 04:38 PM
Probably because they are racist too.

I would say it's more so these guys grow up without fathers and they view Isiah as a father figure.