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Walton Buys Off Me
07-02-2003, 10:22 PM
ideal roster for next year;

Duncan, Willis
O'Neal, Horry
Bowen, R.Miller
Ginobili, Kerr
Parker, Claxton

That's right- I want Rose and Jackson off the squad, Jackson replaced by Reggie Miller and Rose by Robert Horry for financial reasons. No Malik will not go to the Lakers, he'll go to Indiana in a sign and trade.

Who could argue that Reggie- under our system wouldn't revitalize his game? As far as Horry goes- stricly off the bench, some time at the 4, some at the 3, he'd get some good looks playing for the Spurs.

Why restructure something that just won a championship? Simple, it makes us better. We keep our nucleus in Duncan, Parker, Ginobili and Bowen, sign a bonafide all-star in Jermaine O'Neal, sign another all-star for the MLE in Reggie Miller- someone who won't turn the ball over twenty-six times in the Finals, and we retain our character with guys like Willis and Kerr. Resigning Claxton is also imoprtant in my book.

Gone: Robinson, Smith, Rose, Ferry, Jackson
Arrived: O'Neal, R.Miller, Horry

ducks
07-02-2003, 10:25 PM
miller? to much money and expensive


he has oneal and miller with the pacers now and he is not what he was. true they have no point but still to expensive

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:26 PM
No thanks. Other than the JO'Neal and Horry parts.

ducks
07-02-2003, 10:27 PM
if it took rose for oneal I would do it

we could still get willis to come back might get pj brown.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:28 PM
If that's what it took, sure. Doubt Indy would go for it.

ducks
07-02-2003, 10:32 PM
or they would let oneal walk for nothing? oneal has some leverage you know and he wants to show the pacers some respect .... sure they might want speedy or tp but tp is off limits besides oneal wants to have a point guard not a idiot at point

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:33 PM
SA sends back a couple of picks. We throw a 'cue. Good Times.

Walton Buys Off Me
07-02-2003, 10:35 PM
No, we sign O'Neal- we do a sign and trade for Reggie

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 10:39 PM
O'Neal and Horry would be great. If we could fit Piatkowski in there somehow, that would be the icing on the cake.

Walton Buys Off Me
07-02-2003, 10:41 PM
Can someone in this forum seriously and intelligently argue that Stephen Jackson is > Reggie Miller????!!!!!

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:44 PM
a 57 year old Reggie Miller? Sure.

ducks
07-02-2003, 10:46 PM
are you also going to say steve smith> SJ?

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 10:48 PM
With the lineup he's proposing, we certainly wouldn't need Jax. Miller would fit well in that respect if he came cheaply enough. Horry + Miller + Kerr = unbeatable veteran clutchness.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:50 PM
Why give up Rose for an old Reggie Miller when you already have the rights to Jax?

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:52 PM
So you dump a Rose in his prime for 35 year old Robert Horry? 24 year old Jax for 37 year old Reggie Miller?

No thanks.

Walton Buys Off Me
07-02-2003, 10:54 PM
First off, please don't compare Steve "I haven't hit a big shot in twelve years" to Reggie Miller...that's asanine.

As far as Jackson goes, would we have won without him? Maybe not, but he should made us sweat the whole way through. Same for Malik- does anyone truly belive this guy is going to get better? He won't, flat out- he's got the heart of a lion, but no talent to speak of.

I'd like to keep these guys- they are great guys, but we have a chance to get really better here and unfortunately we can't satisfy everyone.

Reggie is still money- case closed. Believe me.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:58 PM
Kerr gave the Spurs what they need wtf do they need to run out a young athlete who just put together a string of clutch shots for an old ass guard like Reggie Miller?

As for Rose you are flat wrong. Dammit I am tired of seeing Spurs fans bag on him. Rose has singlehandedly given this Spurs team a bench over the last 5 years and the thanks he gets is the assumption that he is expendable. Thankfully the front office disagrees with your astute analysis.

Giving him up to add a JO'Neal? Sure. Moving him just for the hell of it so you can replace him with Horry is not just dumb...it's insane.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 10:58 PM
There really wouldn't be any minutes for Rose with Tim/O'Neal/Horry/Willis around and his contract would hurt us as the years go by. I'd rather bring in Scola or Oberto on the cheap.

I would be willing to give Jax one more year to drastically improve his ballhandling and turnovers. No progress next year = out.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 10:59 PM
No. There are limited minutes for Horry and Willis, not Rose.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:00 PM
There's a reason Rose has that contract. He earned it. He's making less than the average salary in the league right now.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 11:05 PM
If we get a guy like O'Neal, it just makes more sense to have guys like Horry and Willis. Rose wouldn't be happy with his reduction in minutes and cheaper/older guys like Horry and Willis are still very versatile and more cap friendly.

Parker and Manu are going to have to get paid soon and the more cap space for them the better. Let Malik realize his starter dreams in the east.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:06 PM
TD 38 minutes
JO 35 minutes
MR 23 minutes

Reduction in minutes?

T Park Num 9
07-02-2003, 11:08 PM
WTF the bagging on Jackson??

He singlehandedly helped them win games 2 against phoenix, game 6 against Dallas, and game 6 against Nets.


Yeah lets toss him aside for a guy who couldnt hit a damn shot against the Celtics.


Get a clue.

Jackson > Miller
Rose > Willis+ Horry PERIOD.


Where would the Spurs have been without Rose in game 4 against Dallas.


Come on people these people who helped win a ring DESERVE to be back, Jackson, Parker, Claxton, Rose.


People grow a brain.

KoriEllis
07-02-2003, 11:13 PM
Walton, you want an intelligent argument to keep Jack over getting Reggie... here you go!

Reggie Miller is one of my all-time favorites. I have his poster on my wall and his jersey in my closet. We were at UCLA at the same time. But he's not better than Jack right now.

Reggie's turning 38 in August. He's coming off surgery.

He averaged 12.6 points, 2.5 rebounds and 2.4 assists in 30 minutes this season. He was never a defensive giant, but he has lost all his defensive quickness with ankle problems and crickety knees. Reggie is looking to finish out his career either in Indy -- or back home in L.A.

Jack is 25 years old. He averaged 11.8 points , 3.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists in 28 minutes this season. (And before someone cracks on his turnovers, he only averages 2.2 per game)

He carried the Spurs in the Phoenix series. Duncan was bogged down and ineffective -- Jack was the only one to step up and perform -- he won the Phoenix series.

Game Six vs New Jersey, the Spurs were this close to being done. Jack had been sucking in the first half. But he reached down inside himself and in his first Finals of his life buried shots and single-handedly turned the tide of the game to bring home the title to your San Antonio Spurs.

Yes, he is young and makes bonehead decisions at times. But when the chips were down, he had the balls to step up and knock down shots when it counted. He believes in the Spurs system. He works hard. And he has balls of steel.

That quality is not something that shows up in the stat sheet every night. But it's something that makes Champions -- NO FEAR.

DON'T TRADE JACK.

:queen

T Park Num 9
07-02-2003, 11:19 PM
^^^^ Read this and memorize jackson hating morons.


Especially you walton. he averages 2.2 a game, hell your precious Miller shot like 28% against Boston.

PATHETIC.

Jackson kept them in game 1, won game 2 and game 6 against Phoenix,


GROW A BRAIN MORONS!!!!!!!

Give him another summer of development and practicing the plays, and this guy is going to develop even more.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 11:19 PM
Why is Jermaine only playing 35 mpg? He should be playing about the same as TD or more seeing as he is younger.

TD 38 mpg
JO 38 mpg
Malik 20 or less mpg = not happy.

Malik already averaged 24.5 mpg last year and that is including a bunch of DNP-CDs. He won't be happy to see his minutes decline already by 2 mpg and much less happy seeing them decline by 5 to 20 mpg.

With TD and JO, Horry and Willis just make more sense and they are also more cap friendly.

picnroll
07-02-2003, 11:21 PM
Malik fills a good role, particularly when team go small and the minutes are there. Only reason to move Rose if Brand or O'Neal came is if it looked like Scola was going to be a keepr.

No way you lose Jax unless he gets too high an offr n FA. Don't see his name mentioned much as a target so hopefully he won't cost too much or maybe words out he's coming back and a deals been worked.

MannyIsGod
07-02-2003, 11:26 PM
DNP's don't effect your minutes per game, because its not a game when you played. In other words, if you played 30 minutes in one game the entire year, your mpg would be 30.

so, the DNPs have no effect on maliks minutes.

As for why are they playing limited minutes, why play them 40 if you don't have to?

Besides, Malik is a great backup to have in case of an injury. He can step up and start for limited periods of time and play very well.

You don't violate a couple of cardinal rules in being a GM.

You don't trade down in size, and you don't trade youth for older players.

malik + jax for reggie does BOTH Of that, its a moronic idea. I'm sorry, i'm glad your thinking of scenarios, but this one is just plain stupid.

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 11:28 PM
My ideal summer:

Brand/O'Neal, Horry, Peeler, SJax, Willis, Kerr, perimeter guy/developmental type, FA big

Plan B: Brad Miller, Gary Payton (no four year deal), Horry, Peeler, SJax, Willis, Kerr, perimeter type, FA big

AHF

Solid D
07-02-2003, 11:32 PM
Jermaine O'Neal...........Malik Rose..............Kevin Willis
Tim Duncan................Robert Horry or Fabricio Oberto
Bruce Bowen..............Walt Williams
Stephen Jackson.........Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker...............Hollis Price..............Steve Kerr

Not ideal but I felt a little creative.

scott
07-02-2003, 11:33 PM
Hey- don't be baggin on us Jackson Haters. Not all of us are bad.

I like to attribute Jackson's success to my constant hating of him. He reads this forum (huh?) and plays the way he does just to prove me wrong (wha?)! Keep proving me wrong Jack!

Here is my ideal line up next season

C ONeal/Rose/Willis
PF Duncan/Rose/Horry
SF Bowen/Jackson/Horry
SG Jackson/Manu/Kerr

I don't know who the other two guys we end up with are- nor do I honestly care.
PG Parker/Claxton/Kerr

MannyIsGod
07-02-2003, 11:34 PM
Walt Williams will never play for Pop. I play better d.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 11:36 PM
Before jumping all over Walton, you people should also recognize that Jackson has many good qualities but he also has a serious problem with turnovers. 2.2 to/game is quite high. By comparison, Manu had roughly half the turnovers Jax did in both the regular season and the playoffs while playing fewer minutes. Jackson averaged 2.83 to/game in the playoffs. That is horrendous for a guard who doesn't handle the ball as much as Tim or Tony and who also plays fewer minutes than both.

I'd be willing to give Jax another year to show improvement in this area but if things don't improve, I believe he would have to be replaced. He was being pulled from the floor earlier and earlier in games because of his poor decisions. Had we not been in the playoffs I believe Pop would have benched him in favor of Manu but he didn't want to disrupt the rotation.

Don't get me wrong, I love Jax and what he brings to the team but I was pulling my hair out at the number of blunders he comitted in the playoffs. If he improves his handles and turnovers he should be a hell of a player.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:36 PM
Then JO gets 37 minutes and MR gets 21 minutes. Just because your 4/5 rotation is a strength doesn't mean you have to weaken it.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:38 PM
With respect to Jax I just have to say...clutch. You can't have an all-star at every spot on the floor. Also finding someone to take (and hit) the big shot is rather difficult.

He's all of 24 years old. The Spurs should never be in the business of running off 6'8" athletic swingmen who can shoot the rock under pressure. Never.

MannyIsGod
07-02-2003, 11:40 PM
fucking a

give him another year?

you realize that without jax,

we don't win the fucking title!!!!!

BEFORE YOU GUYS GO DISMANTLING THIS TEAM, REALIZZE ONE THING.

THEY WON THE TITLE.

**** man. MB is right, some of you think you can get an all star at every fucking position and on the bench.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 11:43 PM
All of you people who have lineups including Tim/O'Neal(or Brand)/Rose/Horry/Willis, there won't be enough minutes to keep Rose happy. I'd think he'd probably want to leave or should be traded.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:45 PM
TD 38
JO 37
MR 21

Rose averaged 21.0 minutes per game in the 2000-01 and 2001-02 seasons. Last season he averaged 24.5, but bear in mind that he started some and he also subbed in for an injured DRob extensively in others.

http://www.nba.com/media/act_malik_rose.jpg

Solid D
07-02-2003, 11:46 PM
Walt Williams will never play for Pop. I play better d. - Manny
Okay...Manny, I'll give you that - although I was thinking about bench scoring and Steve Smith upgrade.

Substitute a big SF in Walter McCarty? He made $760k last year and is a FA and he brings hustle on D.

MannyIsGod
07-02-2003, 11:47 PM
if malik is on this team next year, and I think there is 99% chance he will be. (thank god, or pop) Then he will be the first bigman off the bench, and he will avg at least 20 minutes. Regardless of who we sign.

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-02-2003, 11:47 PM
Stephen Jackson averages 2.3 turnovers per game in the playoffs and some of you want to run him out of town.

Jason Kidd averages 3.95 turnovers per game in the playoffs, 3.7 for the entire season, and some of you want to give him 100 million dollars. Jason Kidd led the league in TOs per game, and had the second highest number of them after Mr. Ballhog Steve Francis.

Fucking A, make some sense please people. Stephen Jackson is our diamond in the rough, and he doesn't need to be sporting anything but the silver and black for the next several years.

AHF

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:48 PM
Well, um, McCarty is tall and he can shoot the 3.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:49 PM
Kidd and the rest of those guys have the rock in their hands a lot more though.

Walton Buys Off Me
07-02-2003, 11:49 PM
Kori- thank you for arguing your point without namecalling- a rarity here.

Ok, here goes what will surely be a long thread- here's my two cents.

First off, I have every game on tape- I know what Jack did and I wholeheartedly agree with you- Jackson did play a huge part in the championship. However, I make this point with the future in mind. In my opinion, Stephen Jackson is not starting material on a team with Manu Ginobili, period. With that in mind- what should we do with Jackson?

In answering that, let's look at our options- simply put we sign him or lose him. As the starting shooting guard on a championship team, he will likely command a nice raise. I believe we made a mistake in committing to Malik Rose for that length and money- he was grossly overpaid. I'm tired of seeing Rose fumble balls, get shot over by taller guys and do that patented pump-fake-for-ten-minutes, then shoot an airball. We can't make that mistake with Jackson- he's not all that. As you pointed out, in certain games he was great, in others, he was yanked after three minutes! He's erratic and unfortunately it won't change- he can barely dribble for Christ's sake!

Reggie Miller had a horrible playoffs, no doubt. However, if you think that Reggie doesn't know that and won't come back with a vengeance, you're very wrong. Reggie Miller is a rare breed- a winner personafied, an overflowing cup of killer instinct and with us, I believe downright scary!!!

Guys like Reggie Miller are made to play with people like Tim Duncan- the will of these two alone would win a championship.

Anyways, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. I wish the best for Jack, wherever he plays.

MannyIsGod
07-02-2003, 11:50 PM
People also don't take into context how those to's were made. Alot of his passes were bobbled out of bounds, that shit is not always his fault, and players will be better with him this year.

Jax was a fucking hero from the 3 point line. As far as i'm concerned, the man has earned him self a spot here for a long ass time.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:50 PM
Miller is too damn old. And injured on top of that.

MannyIsGod
07-02-2003, 11:54 PM
yeah, this isn't the reggie of old lore, this is a shell of his former ratboy self.

TwoHandJam
07-02-2003, 11:57 PM
Player G GS MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO PF PTS

02-03 Stephen Jackson 80 58 28.2 .435 .320 .760 .80 2.80 3.60 2.3 1.56 .38 2.20 2.50 11.8

01-02 Steve Smith 77 76 28.7 .455 .472 .878 .60 1.90 2.50 2.0 .70 .19 1.40 2.10 11.6

Before we all get our panties in a bunch, look at the above. Yes, Jackson has some great qualities but he is not irreplacable. If he shows some solid improvement in his problem areas next year then I would say he's a keeper. If not, I don't think it would be the end of the world to look elsewhere.

Marcus Bryant
07-02-2003, 11:58 PM
But at least McCarty's been featured on uglypeople.com...

http://www.nba.com/media/act_walter_mccarty.jpghttp://uglypeople.com/uglymen/section.images.2003062509/up-men-00297.jpg

Solid D
07-03-2003, 12:02 AM
:rollin @ Marcus:vomit

Walton Buys Off Me
07-03-2003, 12:03 AM
McCarty looks like one of those idiots from "Getto Brawls 5- Revenge of the Chicken"

MannyIsGod
07-03-2003, 12:06 AM
big diffrence in those 2 that doesn't show up in the stats.

02' playoffs, smitty missing
03' playoffs, jax HUGE

Solid D
07-03-2003, 12:09 AM
How about Ghost Writer at "Small" Forward?

http://uglypeople.com/uglymen/section.images.2003062509/up-men-00287.jpg

Walton Buys Off Me
07-03-2003, 12:13 AM
Is that Austin?

Jimcs50
07-03-2003, 12:28 AM
What's up Walton?

Walton Buys Off Me
07-03-2003, 12:45 AM
How you doin' Jim?

On a footnote Kori, there was another Jackson, back in '99, that was instrumental in us winning a title. Last I heard, he was gathering up other 'Subway' workers in hopes of forming a boy band.

One playoffs does not make you a star. Common sense dictates that Ginobili is our 2 guard of the future.

timvp
07-03-2003, 01:32 AM
I don't understand how people can bag on Stephen Jackson. How many big shots did he hit during the playoff run? On top of that, he played good defense and rebounded the ball well.

He's also 6'8 which is great size for a guard. He plays the two-man game with Duncan better than anybody on the team. He's a competitor and hates losing.

I can name off many reasons why he's a must keep, but here's one thing about him that isn't mentioned much:

He blasts Duncan's ass when Duncan is playing soft. Many times during the playoffs, you could see Jackson walk up and rip into Duncan. He's the only player or coach with the balls to call out Duncan and tell him he's playing scared.

You want to give that away for a 38 year old man who has maybe 1 good year left?


Ri--i-ii-iiii-ii-iight.

:drunk


P.S.

Jaren Jackson is coaching at Georgetown.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 01:58 AM
The only similiarity between Jax and JJ is the last name.

mattyc2422
07-03-2003, 09:02 AM
Marcus Bryant
There's a reason Rose has that contract. He earned it. He's making less than the average salary in the league right now.
Completely agree. Malik is waaaaay more important to SA than many people and fans across the league give him credit for.

As for Jackson, I also believe he should be kept. Has a good frame, a clutch shooter, an agressive attitude and most importantly he has more potential to improve further.

Some of the signs we saw from Malik and Jack this past season are good enough for me to believe they are integral parts of our lineup.

travis2
07-03-2003, 09:09 AM
So you dump a Rose in his prime for 35 year old Robert Horry? 24 year old Jax for 37 year old Reggie Miller?

No thanks.

But you're willing to dump a 21-year-old Parker ready to conquer the world for a 30-year-old Kidd who has peaked already and frankly is on the way down?

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 09:42 AM
Kidd's a great player with a number of seasons left. You guys act like he's old he's not. 30 years old. 3 years older than Duncan. How long is Duncan supposed to wait on Parker to reach an elite status? We're not talking about just being a quality point we are talking about him as a second star.

travis2
07-03-2003, 09:46 AM
A great star who is going to see the taillights of the likes of Nash, Marbury, Payton (if he makes good on his threat)...4 times per year each.

Great. A "star" we have to cover for on defense who shoots 38% from the field.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 09:52 AM
Not when he has a TD patrolling the lane behind him. But you know what? I hope the Spurs pass on Kidd for whoever not named JO'Neal or Brand. Then you can enjoy seeing Duncan struggle to carry absolute crap during his prime while other Western contenders pass the Spurs by.

travis2
07-03-2003, 09:54 AM
Marcus, he shot 38% with open looks. He's not going to run the set offense any better than TP, either. Are we suddenly going to switch to a completely run-and-gun set? I don't think so!

If we end up with Kidd, I will grit my teeth and keep my peace...but ready to jump all over you when he doesn't provide the increase in performance befitting the contract he is demanding.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 09:59 AM
He had maybe 5 open looks in that entire series. I also remember him hitting a number of shots at inopportune times. Again, give him a Tim Duncan to play with.

travis2
07-03-2003, 10:06 AM
Marcus, he didn't do any better during the regular season.

And when I play the "shooting at inopportune times" card, you aren't so keen on accepting it...

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 10:10 AM
Look, he's a great player who dragged that Nets team to the NBA Finals twice. Talk about stats to your heart's content. A number of players have stats that are close to TD would that make them worth passing on TD?

Beyond that this is the Spurs best (and perhaps only) opportunity to give Duncan a great player to play when he is on top of his game. Some of you act like the Spurs will always have an opportunity to acquire a great player. That's not the case.

travis2
07-03-2003, 10:12 AM
Different systems. Different players. You put Kidd here and he turns into Tony Parker with a lower shooting percentage.

Marcus Bryant
07-03-2003, 10:15 AM
Um no.

But again, I suppose the Spurs should be in the habit of passing on great players who want to come to SA. Especially now when Duncan's on top of his game.

travis2
07-03-2003, 10:17 AM
Look, you still haven't answered my question. All I've gotten from you is "great player, ignore the stats". That tells me nothing.

What does he bring to the team that we don't already have?

travis2
07-03-2003, 10:24 AM
You're the economist, Matt. What value do we get for the outlay??? Is it justified? Granted, he's a "great player"...but do we need him? Do we throw max money at someone we don't need just to buy a name?

TwoHandJam
07-03-2003, 10:45 AM
big diffrence in those 2 that doesn't show up in the stats.

02' playoffs, smitty missing
03' playoffs, jax HUGE


I don't understand how people can bag on Stephen Jackson. How many big shots did he hit during the playoff run? On top of that, he played good defense and rebounded the ball well.

Some of you guys are missing the point about Jackson. I am critisizing him.... constructively. Why does it all of a sudden become like SR.com in here with the rabid homers anytime someone points out faults with our players?

Jackson did not have a stellar playoffs. Yes he hit some big shots but that doesn't mean you can erase or neglect the numerous problems he did have.

How many times did Pop pull him early? His first possession turnovers were so predictable you could set your watch by them. He averaged 2.83 to/game throughout the playoffs which is double that of Manu in less minutes. He missed untold defensive rotations. Finley abused him in the Dallas series. He was MIA for the entire Lakers series. He commited 26 turnovers in the NJ series alone. Pop himself said that it's feast or famine with Jackson; that's barely acceptable for a bench player much less a starter on a championship team. Inconsistency is largely what seperates starters from bench players.

Jackson won some games for us in playoffs but make no mistake that his poor play lost some games for us as well. Jackson worked for us last year I believe largely because we needed guys who can hit clutch shots, but Jackson also benefited from 2 seven foot hall of famers cleaning up his numerous defensive mistakes. We may not have that kind of presence next year and Jackson must improve or his weaknesses could really start to hurt us.

As I said before, I love Jackson. I think he's got tremendous potential and he already has two things that you can't teach: heart and no fear. However, I feel he will be benched in favor of Manu next year if he doesn't show solid improvement in his problem areas. I do hope we keep him and I do hope he succeeds.