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View Full Version : Add a couple million to the cap space



genghisrex
06-29-2003, 10:51 AM
I saw this (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/1972093) Houston Chronicle article posted on another site and noticed an interesting tidbit:
The Spurs have saved roughly $15 million of cap room while winning the championship, and as long as they sign Duncan last to go over the cap on his contract, they can bring in Kidd and have change left over for a serviceable replacement for David Robinson.This is an excellent point from a writer who actually knows his CBA (or at least has a good sources who does)! Duncan's maximum salary if he opts out is roughly $12.7 million, which is 105% of his salary for the 2002-03 season. Technically, however, Tim's "max level" is 25% of the cap (next year it will be 30%).

Under the CBA, a percentage of a FA's previous salary counts against the cap until his team either re-signs or renounces him. This percentage is 150% for a FA like Duncan, but this amount cannot exceed Tim's max level. 25% of a $42 million cap is $10.5 million, which is obviously less than the $12.7 million that TD will receive. So in other words, take that $15 million cap figure and add an extra $2.2 or so to it because that's the Spurs' effective cap space.

Basically, if Tim opts out and waits to re-sign, this means that even if the Spurs sign a max FA like Kidd or O'Neal they will have MLE money available to sign either a big or a wing. After that, they'll be able to go over the cap and re-sign both Timmy and SJax.

MI21
06-29-2003, 10:55 AM
Now I know why I never bothered to learn the CBA and all its little ins and outs. It's too complicated, and why bother when Ghengis is here to do it for me :)

Thanks for explanation and everything!

And as for the extra 2.2 Mill, all you can really say is Fucking Brilliant.

Makes alot of options seem more realistic

Rick Von Braun
06-29-2003, 11:02 AM
WOW!

That is HUGE! Great job genghis!

genghisrex
06-29-2003, 11:05 AM
I know most here hate the idea of signing Kidd (I don't), but I think you have to admit that Kidd + P.J. Brown would be a pretty successful off season. O'Neal + Speedy + someone else for $2-3 million or O'Neal + an MLE FA (maybe even Payton?!?) would also be awesome. Or, if we could somehow steal Brand, we'd have around $7 million left over to play with! Oh, the possibilities...

:evil

Rick Von Braun
06-29-2003, 11:17 AM
Genghis,

Could you please tell us what is your best estimate regarding the total amount of money they Spurs could use this summer to lure FAs?

Based on the above info, I am assuming it is something between $16-18M. Is there a more accurate estimate?

Thanks bro,
-R

picnroll
06-29-2003, 11:29 AM
Does that mean we could squeeze in Brand and Maggette, Sterling willing? That would be very nice.

genghisrex
06-29-2003, 11:31 AM
Well, my previous estimate for the Spurs committed salary was around $26.8 million (including SJax's cap hit). With a $40 million cap the Spurs would "save" an additional $2.7 million based on the information above; with a $42 million cap they "save" $2.2 million in cap space. So...

$40 million cap:
$24.1 million committed
$15.9 million in cap space
30% max FA: $12 million
After 30%: $3.9 million
25% max FA: $10 million
After 25%: $5.9 million

Obviously a $40 million cap would give us less flexibility, but a $42 million cap seems to be a good possibility.

$42 million cap:
$24.6 million committed
$17.4 million in cap space
30% max FA: $12.6 million
After 30%: $4.8 million
25% max FA: $10.5 million
After 25%: $6.9 million

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 12:08 PM
This is why I exclusively visit FSP.

Spurs could sign JO'Neal, re-up Claxton, and then have some change left over to improve the deep bench...perhaps a shooter like Piatkowski or Voshon Lenard. Maybe a younger player. Perhaps more size, etc...

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 12:15 PM
And another possibility made clear to us by genghis' astute analysis is that the Spurs could sign Kidd and every Kidd hater's favorite bigman....Olowokandi.

scott
06-29-2003, 12:18 PM
Any news on what Duncan is planning to do?

Tomorrow is the last day for him to inform the league on whether or not he will opt out. Since his Max level goes up to 30% next year and the possibility of a new CBA looms on the horizon- doesn't it make sense for him to not opt out?

What cap space scenarios do we have if Duncan chooses not to opt out?

texbound
06-29-2003, 12:21 PM
Genghis,

Not to throw a wrinkle into this, but wouldn't duncan count 150% of his previous salary unless he's renounced or re-signed? I seem to remember this rule being put into place because of the Juwan Howard/Miami fiasco.

Tex

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 12:21 PM
Of course there is the expense for waiting another year to sign a long term deal (ie insurance). I'm not sure what that runs for but I would imagine that if you want coverage for the loss of a $100 mil contract it isn't going to be too cheap.

genghisrex
06-29-2003, 12:27 PM
texbound,
Under the CBA, a percentage of a FA's previous salary counts against the cap until his team either re-signs or renounces him. This percentage is 150% for a FA like Duncan, but this amount cannot exceed Tim's max level.150% of Tim's previous salary is more than 25% of the cap (TD's max level) so the 25% figure is what counts, not the 150%.

texbound
06-29-2003, 12:32 PM
I hear ya. This is a wrinkle I didn't even consider and I'm not, by any means, a salary cap expert (but i did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once). Great find.

Tex

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 12:35 PM
Spurs could also potentially find some room to make an offer to Horry. For the right price would the Spurs be willing to bet that he could regain his touch?

genghisrex
06-29-2003, 12:48 PM
scott, the jump to the 30% max level is basically meaningless to TD because, while his max level is 25% this year, he can receive 105% of last year's salary, which essentially puts him at that higher level already. If he chooses to opt out this year, the 30% max (of a $42 million cap) is $12.6 million, but 105% of TD's 2002-03 salary is actually slightly more at $12.7 million.

Now, financially, staying under contract this year and then signing a 7-year contract next summer is potentially (and likely) more lucrative than signing a 7-year contract this year and trying for a second contract in 2010. The difference between 1 + 7 years and 7 years is around $20 million and while TD may receive a $20 million contract in 2010, he obviously can't count on that kind of money at the age of 34.

Still, signing longterm now would give Tim more guaranteed money now and as MB pointed out, insurance on a future $120 million contract can't be cheap. Tim might also be willing to "take one for the team" (it's hard for me to say that with a straight face when the difference is something like getting $120 million or holding out for $140 million) and opt out so that the Spurs can sign their max and MLE. He'd definitely have more shots at winning championships that way (which ultimately might make the contract difference much less)...

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 12:52 PM
One thing to consider is that $20 mil would be 8 years from now, as well as that the taxman will be getting a nice chunk of that. It's still significant, no doubt about it, but not in the form of $20 mil today.

scott
06-29-2003, 01:15 PM
So- if Tim doesn't opt out (which we'll know tomorrow)- what is our cap situation like?

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 01:37 PM
Duncan will count against the cap at 1.125 times his 2002-03 salary. Take whatever that is and use it as a replacement for Duncan's salary in the scenarios that genghis laid out above.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-29-2003, 02:24 PM
Sweet find genghis,

As for Duncan opting out/staying, I'm sure Pop, RC, and Tim know what would work best for going shopping this summer.

AHF

baseline bum
06-29-2003, 02:46 PM
Holy shit - I didn't even think of that. In the end it prob doesn't matter though, beause Tim would leave a lot of money on the table by opting out this year as opposed to next.

baseline bum
06-29-2003, 04:25 PM
Tim Duncan - 0.25cap
30% max FA - 0.3cap
Rose - $4.725 M
Bowen - 3.733333 M
Ginóbili - $1.5435 M
Parker - 0.8562 M
QO for Jax - $0.813 M
4 contracts under 11 = 4*$0.366931 M = $1.46772 M

TOTAL - 0.55 cap + $13.1388 M

Therefore,
capspace = cap - TOTAL = 0.45 cap - $13.1388M

Here are the capspace figures for different caps...

$40 M :: $4.8612 M
$41 M :: $5.3112 M
$42 M :: $5.7612 M
$42.3 M :: $5.8962 M

$42.3 M is the latest cap figure I've heard

Therefore, the Spurs can sign a 30% max FA and have MLE or better left after if the cap comes in at $40.0628 M or above.

Kidd and PJ Brown is not only possible, but a very good bet if the cap comes in at $42.3 M. The thing that was making me sour on signing Kidd before was not having the ability to sign a quality big, but the if the cap comes in at $42.3 M the Spurs are going to have almost $1 million more than the MLE to spend, and that will ensure the Spurs will pick up a solid bigman.

Of course, this assumes Tim opts out of his deal to sign a long term contract this summer.

baseline bum
06-29-2003, 04:27 PM
Therefore, the Spurs can sign a 30% max FA and have MLE or better left after if the cap comes in at $40.0628 M or above.

Oops.. I meant $40.0862 M.

genghisrex
06-29-2003, 05:38 PM
Nice calculations, base. I forgot to add the empty roster salary we'd get back after signing the max FA. Having more than the MLE after signing a max FA means the Spurs should be serious players in the second tier FA market as well. And if we could somehow steal Brand, we could have serious cash left over -- in the $8 million range!

Marcus Bryant
06-29-2003, 05:41 PM
TD would leave some money on the table by opting out but he would also bear the risk of losing out on what he could sign for now should he *gulp* be unable to perform due to some unforseen event that occurs between now and when he could sign his next deal in 2004. To mitigate that risk it's gonna cost him.

ChumpDumper
06-29-2003, 05:57 PM
Wait a sec. I thought that until Tim picks up his option, he'll count against the cap for 105% of this past season's salary. That -- $12,676,125 -- is Tim's max level, not the 25% or 30% since the cap won't go high enough to use the percentages. It wouldn't make any sense for Tim (or KG or Shaq when their time comes) to count less against the cap than what they were actually previously paid.

It does open a bit more cap room, but only about $600k.

guitarsoup
06-29-2003, 06:01 PM
42.5 Cap

S&T Brand for Rose and two first rounc picks. (Brand at the max will count for 5+change, since Malik's 5 will be on LAC's cap.)

We will have just under the max salary available to offer Kidd.

Brand/Willis/Bateer
Duncan/vet fa
Bowen/Ginobili
Parker/Ginobilil
Kidd/Parker

:fro

DuffMcCartney
06-29-2003, 06:12 PM
I dont see Sterling picking up Malik's contract anyway, so I say just try to sign him outright, if not just save the extra cap space for next year.

T Park Num 9
06-29-2003, 06:13 PM
you forgot Stephen Jackson in there too.


But dang, Brand and Jason Kidd???


Might as well hand the trophys over for the next 5 years.

ducks
06-29-2003, 06:43 PM
also the spurs have a better shot at resigning speedy if they do not get kidd but oneal. but then it will be does speedy want to start. he knows he will NOT start here with tp here and he said he wants to play for sa.

T Park Num 9
06-29-2003, 06:47 PM
Who knows,

maybe Speedy could take Parker's job?


I think before he got hurt earlier in the season, he was getting ready to take it over honestly.

guitarsoup
06-29-2003, 06:47 PM
If we did that, I dont think we would have the money to resign SJax or Claxton. They would walk.

We would have to fill roster spots with vet FAs and min crap players.

We would be undenyably shallow - Ginobili, Bateer, Willis and maybe Kerr on the bench. If Ferry wants a victory lap for the vet min, let him.

With a starting five like that, I am not sure it matters too much how shallow we would be.

Bowen plays 30-35.
Kidd and Parker play 38-40 each.
Ginobili would play 30-35.
Brand and Duncan would play a good 35-40 each as well, with Willis getting 15.

We would have some tired players. If we got some minimum guys to step up like Willis did, we could win 70. Of course, this may be the biggest pipe-dream ever.

ducks
06-29-2003, 06:50 PM
if td is that greedy then he does not have that character that I thought he had. leavinng fractions on the table to win is not being unreasonable. td wants spurs to HAVE THE BEST SHOT AT WINNING EVERY year. gulp he should sacrifice a little.

ducks
06-29-2003, 06:51 PM
so you would be happy with speedy as your starter next year? if kidd does not come?

T Park Num 9
06-29-2003, 06:56 PM
If he out plays tony parker for the spot and EARNS it???

Yes, Speedy proved in the playoffs and in that final game and actually all season long.

He can make shots, run the team very well, and plays GREAT D.


Either TOny Parker or Speedy Claxton, I would be happy with as my starting point guard.

ducks
06-29-2003, 07:04 PM
speedy proved in the playoffs he can play. he also has gotten the benifiet of not being a starter so oppossing coaches do not forcus on how to stop him. they do with parker and the rest of the starters. had scott been a great coach he would have tried kittles on speedy to not just tp. nothing against speedy. also speedy seems to get tired faster but maybe that is because he is not used to playing 36 min. a night

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-29-2003, 07:23 PM
Come on TPark,

All Speedy and Tony proved those last couple of games vs. NJ was that:

1. Speedy can hit the open jumper when left alone (which he was), something we already knew.

2. Tony has more difficulties getting his shot off against bigger guards (which we already knew after watching him play against Joe Johnson and Michael Finley).

The fact is whoever Kidd was guarding, be it Tony or Speedy, lit him up in the Finals.

Asserting that Speedy was getting ready to take Tony's job in the regular season is assenine, TP was the key (when scoring 20+) in almost half our regular season victories.

Let's keep this talk on our FA prospects, our PG heirarchy has been clearly established so let's not dilute this thread with such reaches.

AHF

Jimcs50
06-29-2003, 08:02 PM
:sleep

genghisrex
06-29-2003, 10:10 PM
Well, sorry to rain on everyone's parade (which I unfortunately started), but Chump may be right. I based my statement on Larry Coon's CBA FAQ (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm), which says:
Larry Bird, except when coming off rookie "scale" contract At least the average salary 150%*

*Not to exceed the player's maximum salary, based on years of serviceNow, "maximum salary, based on years of service" to me means that it's based on the 25, 30, 35% scale. However, after consulting the actual CBA (http://www.nbpa.org/cba/cba.html) on the matter I came up with a corresponding statement of "Maximum Player Salary applicable to such player." The maximum applicable to TD is most likely interpreted as 105% of his last year's salary.

At this point you're getting into legal interpretations, and I don't even pretend to be a qualified lawyer or legal professional, who can make sense out of the matter. I do know, however, that the CBA has a blanket anti-loophole provision that says something like anything that would violate the "spirit" of the CBA is not allowed. What I proposed could potentially fall into that trap. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

Rick Von Braun
06-30-2003, 02:40 PM
So... does anyone know what the right interpretation is? Any news regarding Tim's contractual situation.

Any info would be appreciated.

-R

KoriEllis
06-30-2003, 03:39 PM
I don't think there are any updates yet on the Duncan front.

MadeFromDust
06-30-2003, 07:51 PM
Apparently TD's agent said he will become a free agent, but will resign with the Spurs.

baseline bum
06-30-2003, 07:55 PM
ChumpDumper is right. 105% it is.

ChumpDumper
06-30-2003, 08:07 PM
:wacko

That would bring the total of cap dispute victories to

genghisrex: 2,345

ChumpDumper: 1

I lost count of baseline bum's a long time ago....

God Almighty
06-30-2003, 08:10 PM
Hell, I don't even care about this shit.