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View Full Version : Why I don't want Jason Kidd, by Kori Ellis



KoriEllis
06-27-2003, 07:07 PM
Let me preface this by saying that this is just my opinion. Disagree and discuss all you want, but keep your attacks in check. Thank you.

In my opinion, the acquisition of Jason Kidd will ruin the San Antonio Spurs.

There -- I said it.

Jason Kidd, in my opinion, is the best talent available and in most circumstances I would say that passing on a player of Kidd's caliber would be ridiculous -- but not in the Spurs' case.

The San Antonio Spurs just won a Championship with a 21-year-old point guard, some journeyman, veterans, a retiring Robinson, and of course, the best player on the planet, Tim Duncan.

The only key component that is leaving the Spurs is David Robinson.

I guess I'm just a believer of if it ain't broke ... well, you know.

Adding Kidd just does too much fixin'.

If you sign Kidd, then you don't re-sign Claxton .. and you may not re-sign Jackson.

Adding Kidd ruins the progression of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.

There are no if's, and's or but's about it. If you start a Kidd/Parker backcourt, Manu stays on the bench another season. In the end, Manu not only is underutilized, but also because of the Kidd signing, you probably don't have the money it's going to take to re-sign him. If you start a Kidd/Manu backcourt, Tony Parker is all but gone from San Antonio. Tony Parker's personality is not one that is going to be relegated to the bench happily after being a starter on a championship team. Why would Spurs management want to underutilize or eventually lose one of their two babies -- Manu and Parker -- The Foreign Legion, the fan favorites, Pop's personal projects? Overall, sign Kidd and you will be destroying the chemistry of the backcourt.

Okay, forget chemistry. How about just leaving gaps. The frontcourt has a hole in it with Robinson's departure. Kidd doesn't play the 5. With Kidd getting max money, there will be little money left to acquire another big man. So you are probably left with Tim, Malik, maybe Willis and a big man scrub.
Does that sound like a frontcourt that can contend with the big men of the West?

Okay, let's just say that we get Kidd and a decent big. All is well, right?

But do we need a distributor like Kidd to run the Spurs' offense? Spurs' offense goes through Duncan. So with Kidd running the show, it will go through Kidd. Won't it?

So okay, the Spurs' offense adapts to Kidd's game. We know that Spurs' going through Duncan has resulted in two rings. Do we know that going through Kidd will get them another one? Will the offense going through Kidd be the best way to get the most out of Duncan? Do we want to risk finding out?

Oh wait, maybe the Spurs' offense will stay relatively the same, but just Kidd will run it instead of Parker?

It already worked with Parker, so why would you waste $12 million on Kidd to do the same thing Parker could (and did).

Spurs need a big man, not Jason Kidd. I want O'Neal or Brand. And yes, I am fully aware that they may not come. But honestly, if they aren't, I hope that the Spurs' brass chooses to take on "lesser" players before opting to sign Kidd.

Nothing personal against Mr. Kidd. He's an excellent player. One of the NBA's best. But adding him to the Spurs roster opens up too many questions, forces too many adjustments, causes too much fixin'.

Ed Helicopter Jones
06-27-2003, 07:11 PM
Nice post Kori.

I have this sinking feeling that the Spurs management is not thinking the same way, though.

Better forward this to Pop ASAP!!!

timvp
06-27-2003, 07:12 PM
Damn.:queen

Well said.

The Pro-Kidd crowd hopes Kidd can change his game and play a supporting role to Tim Duncan. Could Kidd do that?

Jive with Jermaine.

Admiral
06-27-2003, 07:20 PM
Great post, Kori.

I totally agree about Kidd. This is not a fantasy league, and adding talent without looking at whether it fits well or not is not a smart move - especially when you're talking $12 million.

I personally like Parker and Manu too much to risk running one or both of them off by signing Kidd. I firmly believe that Parker is gone if we bring in Kidd - even if Parker starts in the backcourt with him. Point guards don't like having the ball taken away from them, just as big men don't like to go to war every night without another big beside them that they can count on.

I would rather extend the Holting Pattern one more year than sign Jason Kidd.

SAmikeyp
06-27-2003, 07:21 PM
I agree. Unless Jason Kidd grows 6 inches and turns into a center...he is not the component we need. O'Neal is an investment in the future. Get Kidd and we could compete now and suffer later. Get O'Neal and we can win now and later. In the West where frontlines rule...adding a guard and not bolstering the frontcourt just makes no sense.

KoriEllis
06-27-2003, 07:27 PM
People are starting to see the light. Poll at mysa.com ...

Who should be at the top of the Spurs' free-agent list?

Jason Kidd
14.3%

Karl Malone
3.9%

Alonzo Mourning
6.5%

Elton Brand
7.4%

Michael Olowokandi
3.1%

Jermaine O'Neal
63.5%

P.J. Brown
1.3%

Total Votes : 1732

Rabel 13
06-27-2003, 07:37 PM
Pop better be on teh phone with J. Oneal at midnight on July 1.


**** Jason Kidd.


He will only **** us over in the long run.


Gotta go big, its not everyday you can pick up a J. Oneal.


Of course some will piss their pants if Kidd is not signed.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-27-2003, 07:54 PM
Kori,

You forgot the facts that:

1. Spurs showed this post-season how to take away the strongest part of Kidd's game - transition. You know teams will use it no matter where he's playing next year.

2. Defense - on a team where defense is preached, Kidd has already shown he can't keep up with quicker players, and he's not going to be getting any younger over the next six years.

I was actually sitting down to write out a post about this, but looks like you beat me to it, and the chemistry issue with Parker and Manu is definitely one most of the Kiddiots are overlooking.

Phoenix has an unreal front court now, all that length, something Tim already has problems with. Minny just got Cassell, a notorious Spurs killer, to couple with a guy (KG) who already gives our MVP problems. Lakers got longer too with their selections.

People think I just like to hate on Malik, but the fact is when he goes up against the Amares and Shaqs of the world, he doesn't pull down great numbers of rebounds, that half a foot those guys have on him really shows up on the glass. If we start Malik Rose next year Pop has failed in the summer where he had the bank roll and roster flexibility to set us up for the future.

Unfortunately, trading away a PG last night leads me to believe that Pop is journeying down the path of stubborness once again - he wanted JKidd two years ago, and by god he's gonna get him.

Further, our own Whott eloquently broke down why JKidd wouldn't work at the other site, and one of the insiders there made the dubious comment that he needed to forward his post on to Tim, Pop, and RC.

This all leads me to believe that when July rolls around we are going to be after Kidd hot and heavy, and getting ready to hold a press conference with him in the neighborhood of July 15-16. Should that day come it will be a black one for San Antonio, and time will show that Pop fucked up when he had a chance to establish the dynasty in San Antonio.

As each day rolls by, the sinking feeling inside gets worse and worse that we're gonna be looking up at Phoenix, LA, Sacramento, Minnesota, and Dallas next year, wondering why this whole Tim-JKidd thing ain't working out :depressed

AHF

KoriEllis
06-27-2003, 08:01 PM
2. Defense - on a team where defense is preached, Kidd has already shown he can't keep up with quicker players, and he's not going to be getting any younger over the next six years.

This is a big point too. And believe me, I didn't forget it -- I just didn't want to be too long-winded. :lol

AHF, I'm not sold that Kidd is coming here. Yes, I think he wants to come. Yes, I know that all "indicators" point that way. But the Spurs' brass is good at disguising what they are really doing, so don't be so sure that just because all eyes and media are on Kidd that there isn't other plans in the works.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-27-2003, 08:05 PM
I also think you may be right on that, a friend who's related to a minority owner has told me that they're targeting Brand and have a plan (?) to get him out of there.

I just graduated from the baseline bum school of bulletin board criticism, so bear with me here.

Much as as he criticizes guys during the course of games and they go off, this year I criticized Pop and he got us a ring.

So I figure if I start bitching now about Kidd, he'll go a different direction on July 1 :spin

AHF

Whottt
06-27-2003, 08:13 PM
Preach it!!!!!

I was rooting for Kidd to be put back on Parker in the finals..rooting for it. That's not a good indicator of Kidd's defensive prowess from my own personal point of view. It wasn't even a concious decision..

The Spurs getting Jason Kidd this offseason would be like...

Being a race car driver who breaks his leg and goes and gets a cast put on his arm...

Having a flat tire on your car and going out and buying a new battery...


It's like wanting to see a well written and coherent post and then clicking on a thread started by iceman whineth..

It's like wanting to have a high level basketball discussion and then deliberately exposing yourself to one of Ghost's inane PG comparisons.


That kind of thing...

A defending champion losing a HOF Center and going out and getting a PG..

Later on when we lose Duncan..we can say ah it's not a problem, let's go out and sign another Pg...

Hey let's trade Bowen for PG, Jax, Manu, and Rose for PG's as well..that oughta work as long as they're good PG's.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-27-2003, 08:24 PM
It says a lot too Whott that I have friends in Big D who are ready to give up all hopes of a title if we get O'Neal, but are openly rooting for us to get Kidd because it won't help us get better or even stay at the same level.

To add to your list (hey, gotta have some fun...)...

it's like telling the hot girl you met that you just want to talk when she's already stripped down and undoing your pants.

It just doesn't make any sense, and it just worries me because Pop can be very stubborn, and it sounds like he's going down that road.

AHF

ducks
06-27-2003, 08:53 PM
would they trade rose for brand

if they have a plan to get brand they have to be thinking trade.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-27-2003, 09:30 PM
I agree ducks, I'm not sure he'd want Malik's long-term contract though.

I was thinking more like our two first rounders next year, and another down the road or something like that.

Maybe the rights to Scola? I dunno.

AHF

Bounce580
06-27-2003, 09:43 PM
There might be better options than Kidd, but to think Kidd is a bad option is just stupid (not directed at you, Kori, nor anyone in particular).

I wouldn't be at all opposed to Jermaine O'Neal wearing black and silver. I just think we have a much better chance of signing Kidd than O'Neal. I don't think Jermaine is going anywhere, and Kidd is a great "consolation" prize.

KoriEllis
06-27-2003, 09:47 PM
Respecting your opinion Bounce, if Kidd is a Spur. Who is manning the Spurs frontcourt? And who is the starting 1-2-3?

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-27-2003, 09:52 PM
If getting Kidd means our consolation prizes are Malik Rose starting at center and Jason Kidd watching all the young guys pass him by while getting paid 20 million at age 35, I'd just as soon not play.

AHF

spurster
06-27-2003, 09:55 PM
Why I don't prefer Jason Kidd, but why he will make the Spurs a better team, by spurster

It's obvious that the Spurs biggest hole to fill is the one left by David Robinson, so J. O'Neal and Brand are the first FAs the Spurs should consider. BTW, any max FA might become an obstacle when it comes to resigning Parker and Manu. Two max contracts plus Malik's only leaves role player money for everyone else unless Holt bravely enters lux tax territory.

Kidd is a player that makes everyone else better. The Nets would be a lottery team without Kidd. Over his career, Kidd has averaged over 9 assists/game, 6 rebounds/game, 2 steals/game, and 3 FTs/game. On the minus side, he also averages 40% FG and over 3 turnovers/games.

Here is a key point. Any player whose game includes lots of assists will fit on any team. Period. Arguing otherwise is ridiculous. How can 9 assists/game ever be bad?

Many say that Kidd won't average that many assists, but AJ did that regularly with DRob dominating down low. Many say that Kidd won't average that many rebounds, but I don't buy that argument; Kidd has a knack for knowing where the ball is going. And like many other shooters that play with TD, Kidd's FG% would be much better as a Spur.

How was it that Kidd could not play D on Parker while that defensive stopper Kittles kept Parker in check? It was fairly well-known that Kidd's ankle was a problem. I would guess that Parker had something bothering him, too. Otherwise, I don't see how Kittles stays in front of him. Claxton was the only fresh PG out there. Also, when Kidd switched off of Parker, it's not like the Spurs were able to take advantage of the matchup vs. Kidd.

Yes, we all know by now that Kidd does not play center. But do we remember who played when the Spurs made their road trip winning streak? It was Duncan, Rose, and Willis. Do we remember those great centers that Jordan and Pippen played with? I believe they included those future HOFs Will Perdue and Luc Longley. With the two-star formula, you don't add more stars, you add role players that know their part and get it done. The Spurs were able to attract a Willis for the min; the Spurs should be able to attract a bigman better than Willis with the leftover cap space.

Regarding Parker and Manu, I would agree that landing Kidd means that one of these two leaves, probably Parker. Well, nothing lasts forever. Also, as I already mentioned, a second max player will make it hard to offer both of them good contracts.

Getting Kidd is not all good. It should not be the first option. But it is still a very good option. If the Nets can play good basketball with Kidd, the Spurs can play great basketball with Kidd.

Whottt
06-27-2003, 10:12 PM
Kittles was effective against Parker because he is fast and he is longer than Parker..get used to that because in a 2 PG offensive with Kidd Parker is going to see a lot of that. All that proves is that we have no business screwing Parker up by trying to turn him into a SG.

Edit: and if you rewatch game 5 you will see that Parker had begun to figure out Kittles and lit him up in the second half..he never got the chance in game 6.

Kidd's team would not be a lottery team if Marbury was still there...Kenyon Martin was a rookie when Marbury was there and Richard Jefferson, who was just named to the Olympic team, was not even in the league yet.

And how was it that Kerr was also able to get over on Kidd?

KoriEllis
06-27-2003, 10:15 PM
I agree that Kidd would still get his rebounds in a Spurs uniform. And his shooting may improve. But I still don't get how he'd get nine assists in the Spurs' offense. Would the Spurs change their offense to "Nets-style"? Because in the Spurs current offensive scheme, I can't see Kidd averaging nine assists.

Chris Duel
06-27-2003, 11:13 PM
Huge take, Kori!

You have crystalized the reasons why Kidd is wrong for the Spurs. :smokin2

How ironic would it be if he winds up with the evil Mark Cuban in Dallas? :gun

T Park is our Point Guard :smokin

SequSpur
06-27-2003, 11:20 PM
The Spurs won the Championship but they could use alot of improvement in their offensive sets. Tony Parker lost his confidence during crucial games only to be saved by Speedy Claxton. If there is a position besides Center that needs desperate help if Speedy doesn't return, its definitely the PG spot.. The Spurs could win without Parker and would probably benefit from Kidd's poise and experience. Kidd and Claxton or Kidd and Parker would be great... We definitely don't need a Superstar Center, Dave was not one and we were successful... Maybe Kidd is not a bad choice after all..

Kidd/Claxton/Kerr
Manu/Barry/Peeler
Bowen/Jax/Ferry
Duncan/Malik
Brown or Miller and Willis

These lineups would be awesome, both offensively and defensively.

KoriEllis
06-27-2003, 11:25 PM
Good job, Sequ. :rolleyes

If you sign Kidd for $12 million, you definitely don't have money to sign Brown or Miller. And you probably couldn't even sign: Speedy, Jack, Kerr, Barry, Peeler and Ferry.

ZStomp
06-27-2003, 11:42 PM
I have been preaching this from the beginning of time it seems. ONEAL BEFORE KIDD!

DAMN! What is so hard to understand?

I'm not saying that Oneal is coming..hell, we don't know if Kidd is coming. But as a choice, it seems clear the Oneal is the better fit. I have been saying this in the 'other' forum but it's mostly on deaf ears. Why is it so hard to understand?

Jimcs50
06-27-2003, 11:42 PM
That is what I have been saying for months, only not so eloquently.:) **** Kidd!

ducks
06-27-2003, 11:49 PM
**** KIDD:flipoff

SequSpur
06-28-2003, 12:24 AM
Well isn't it about time that the Spurs go over the cap... hmmmm... The cap is probably going down, therefore his percentage of the cap is going down too, so, I seriously doubt he gets 12...

You can't have everything.

You resign Ferry, Kerr and Willis for the minimum.

You part ways with either Jax or Claxton, preferably Jax.

You sign a Center, if J. Oneal comes then Plan A is in effect. You sign J. Oneal and just resign all of the former Spurs and make another run.

You know that Tony Parker just crashed in Game 5 and Game 6 of the NBA Finals so something better be done about the PG position. Whether its Kidd or Claxton. Can Parker revalidate himself? We'll see.

The money is there to reenforce the team with Duncan/Oneal or Duncan/Kidd.

Consider the cap and the weaknesses. PG and Center. The turnovers can be solved by one easy move, do not resign Jackson.

BTW... Manu and Parker are going to be passing that money plate in a few years also... The Cap Game is about to be broken.

Plus Tim and damn near any 7 footer can guard the post.

Also, I am sick of Duncan running the offense because our PG can't. Not because of skill, but because of youth.

Late.

Whottt
06-28-2003, 12:33 AM
I think TParker is getting a bad rap for the last two games of the playoffs...

In game 5 he sucked in the first half but he came out and lit every one up in the third quarter for 12 points or so. He bounced back..

And the Nets were making stopping him a priority and they are a good defensive team.

In game 6 he sucked much like he did in game 5, but so did Stephen Jackson and he turned it around..I am gonna give Tony credit that he would have done that as well because he has done it every other time he needed to this year.

spurster
06-28-2003, 01:42 AM
I agree that Kidd would still get his rebounds in a Spurs uniform. And his shooting may improve. But I still don't get how he'd get nine assists in the Spurs' offense. Would the Spurs change their offense to "Nets-style"? Because in the Spurs current offensive scheme, I can't see Kidd averaging nine assists.
The Spurs current offensive scheme, which in large part consists of TD being a point forward in the low post, is not a strength. It is a weakness.

Kidd has much better court vision than Parker. Kidd will penetrate and he will pass to the open man. And with Kidd and Duncan commanding lots of attention, someone will be wide open.

Kidd will also be better in transition. Kidd will also get the ball to the open cutters. BTW, the Spurs defense stymied Kidd on these two elements. And that was because the Spurs played defense from the first preseason game on, not from just when the playoffs started.

I can't believe that so many people have to see these issues in black-and-white. Why does Kidd have to be all good or all bad, but nothing in between? A careful analysis has to consider the advantages and disadvantages as objectively as possible. Kidd is not all good, as he certainly is not a replacement for DRob, but a lot of good would come from Kidd. If you can't see or admit this, why even try to be a student of the game? If you think the bad outweighs the good, that's ok, but to paint Kidd as a scrub is ridiculous.

Guru of Nothing
06-28-2003, 01:55 AM
Very persuasive, but I'll try to create a visual here - Tim is taking a breather. On the floor is Kidd, Parker, Manu, Jackson and Malik. May not work against Shaq, but THAT would be exciting ball to watch otherwise. With Kidd, Pop's role is more that of an orchestra conductor - contantly changing the tempo. Again, Shaq and the Lakers present a steep challenge, but the Mavs and Kings appear to me to be target practice.

About the Lakers, if Tim negates Shaq, then the Spurs have the upper hand (ignoring any possible Laker upgrades), because the Lakers are so weak 3-12.

Now, you mentioned signing Kidd affects the Spurs' future with regards to Jax, Manu and Parker contracts. I agree. This is why Kidd is my 3b choice, at best.

JO - 1A
EB - 1B
GP - 3A
JK - 3B
Alonzo (short term) - a very distant 5
Tarpley - 100Y
Olowakandi - 100Z

One more thing about Kidd - I can't decide if he's a great player who has just never quite found the right home, or if he's just an out and out enigma, destined to never win a title.

Adios.

SequSpur
06-28-2003, 01:58 AM
Kidd is a very good player. Very good. One of the best in the league...

J. Oneal or J. Kidd will drastically improve the Spurs offense and defense.

Bounce580
06-28-2003, 02:16 AM
Respecting your opinion Bounce, if Kidd is a Spur. Who is manning the Spurs frontcourt? And who is the starting 1-2-3?

I know this argument has been covered a million times, bu I don't think there necessarily needs to be an assigned 1-2-3 position. I look at it more like wings and posts. 1-2-3-4-5 are just arbitrary numbers. As far as who do I think will be starting, I'd say the lineup would look something like:

G-Kidd/Parker
G-Parker/Kidd/Manu/Jax
GF-Manu/Jax/Bowen
FC-Duncan/Rose/Willis
FC-FA/Rose/Willis

I'm not going to even try to break down the minutes, because there's a ton of different possible scenarios. I think if anyone is going to lose minutes, it'd be Bowen and/or Jax. Not Parker, and not Manu.

The reason why I think it'd work is because in Kidd and Parker you have two entirely different point guards. Jason Kidd is a distributing point guard who can take over a good scoring load. His game isn't based on scoring, though. In NJ, he's had to carry the majority of the offensive load. His FG% has never been stellar, but he's still managed to get his points, assists, rebounds, and be widely regarded as the best (P)G in the game. Therefore, I think his FG% is kind of irrelevant. But in Tony Parker, you have an Isiah Thomas/Steve Francis type point guard. The only reason they're at PG is because they're short. Tony's game is scoring first. But, he's also capable of pushing the ball, and getting the team into the offense. Essentially it's like having two PG/SGs on the court.

I think Kidd would work great in San Antonio, because he would be able to concentrate on what he does best. Getting open shots for teammates. He doesn't have to be anything more than the third scoring option (behind Tim and Tony) and perhaps even lower than that (Manu or Jax). If you watch perimeter scoring, they're usually shots that they've created for themself, mostly starting at the perimeter. Kidd could get them wide-open shots at the basket. Timmy's scoring numbers might dip a little, but Manu, Jax, and Tony's increase. But when it comes down to it, Kidd's more than proven he's capable of putting points up on his own.

As far as adding a center, I'd be ecstatic if we were able to land O'Neal. But, if we're looking at the "if it ain't broke..." then we really only need a second or third tier center who can go for 8.5 ppg, and 7.9 rebs. We're not looking to replace David in his prime. There are plenty of players who could easily equal David's numbers from last year.

I'm not advocating Kidd over O'Neal. But I don't think Kidd would ruin the team by any stretch. A team built around Tony, Timmy, and Jermaine would be incredible. I just don't think Jermaine is leaving Indy. I'd me more than happy for him to prove me wrong, though.

Either way, the Spurs are in a hell of a position, and I'm thinking this will be a good offseason. It's safe to say we're looking at 60-65 wins next year.

Also, disregard this. I promised a friend I'd put the elephant somewhere in the post: :elephant

DuffMcCartney
06-28-2003, 02:35 AM
I say the Spurs resign almost everybody, the only people they shouldnt sign are Ferry,Smith, and Bateer. Everybody else needs to stay where they were, i much prefer having Manu be with the second team than with the 1st as a starter. Jax was the starter and because of him we won 60 games, not really but you know what I mean. If its not broke dont fix it. Manu brings great energy off the bench, I dont think Jax could bring the same energy off the bench.

Imagine the same line up but with O'Neal or Brand....

C-O'Neal or Brand/Rose/Willis
PF-TD/FA
SF-Bruce/Jax
SG-Jax/Manu
PG-TP/Clax

That lineup works on so many different levels.

KoriEllis
06-28-2003, 03:08 AM
The Spurs current offensive scheme, which in large part consists of TD being a point forward in the low post, is not a strength. It is a weakness.

Well it can't be that weak, they just one a championship with it. :) Seriously though, you seem to be willing to change the Spurs offense quite a bit. And I guess that's my real problem. Bringing on Kidd would lead to too many adjustments, especially for Duncan. And he's coming off back-to-back MVP's and I'm not sure how much I want to change his game. I'm just not sure that Kidd can make Duncan better.


but to paint Kidd as a scrub is ridiculous

Agreed, you'll never hear me say "**** Kidd". He's an incredible player; I'm just not sold on him being ideal for the Spurs. Kidd could come and prove me wrong (and believe me, I'd be overjoyed if he was successful).

---

Bounce, I hear you about the wing and post positions. I wasn't really asking you to assign someone at each of the 1-2-3, more I was wanting to know who you'd think would get the bulk of the minutes. By your post, I think you are saying to start Kidd/Parker/Ginobili and have Jack and Bowen platoon at the 2/3. I'm just worried about who will be manning the post with Duncan if we spend money on Kidd. :elephant

---


One more thing about Kidd - I can't decide if he's a great player who has just never quite found the right home, or if he's just an out and out enigma, destined to never win a title.

I wonder about Kidd finding a home too. If Kidd moves this offseason, Kidd will be the only first team All-NBA player in history to be on four teams his first 10 years in the league.

T Park Num 9
06-28-2003, 05:25 AM
Protest Kidd in 03.

Sign Kidd?? Loose in the second round.


Sign Oneal?? Threepeat and going for more.


End of story.

Whottt
06-28-2003, 09:14 AM
Agreed, you'll never hear me say "**** Kidd".

Of course not, a lady should never say such things, even a sports reporter..

If you'll allow me..

"**** Kidd"

Signing Kidd is like going to Wal Mart and buying their best all in one stereo system. Yeah it has every thing you want in a good system..you can do every thing you need to do with it..

But it's not gonna win a sound contest with a component system bought from an audio store and assembled piece by piece with every component selected with purpose.

Putting the rack system up against any single component of the component system, the rack system is gonna look and sound good..but when the component system is all put together it isn't even going to be a close contest.

And adding that all in one rack system as the amp of your component sytem is gonna make your high quality system sound like shit.

Maybe it's just me but his game is never gonna match up with a great half court team, it will win, it will be effective but it's never gonna win a contest.

To carry the analogy further..in this case we'd be paying 10 times as much for the all in one sound system from Wal Mart.

Actually since Kidd is 30 it'd be more like we are paying 10 times as much and buying it from good will.

Parker and Manu are here to stay, they need to be starting... and the veterans should be backing them up..not starting in front of them for gobs more money.

Maybe I'm wrong and this will all work out..and if so I am gonna have to eat a lot of crow but Kidd just isn't a half court player and the Spurs are championship half court team.

Oh and it's one of our tower speakers that needs replacing, not our amp :smokin

MannyIsGod
06-28-2003, 11:48 AM
preface: I like any sane individual, want a YOUNG O'neal or Brand before Kidd.

I can't buy into the "If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix It" argument, because the rest of the leauge IS fixing it, and we can't afford to stand pat.

Now, the natural progression of players like Jax and Manu should prevent us from standing pat no matter what we do, but still.

One thing I definetly don't understand, is when people say that bringing in Jason Kidd will hinder the development of Manu, Jax, and Parker. I STRONGLY disagree. The reason Kidd has been regarded as an MVP cantidate, is because he makes players BETTER. A backcourt of Manu/Kidd would be the most creative in the leauge, giving us an offense that would run very smoothly.

Imagine the Spurs, with defense just as good as it is now, but with an offense as powerful as Sacramentos. That is what you would have with a Jason Kidd addition to the Spurs. The strength of the Spurs is definetly defense, and that will not suffer greatly with a Kidd addition.

Can Tim Duncan survive in an offense with Jason Kidd. Are you kidding, OF COURSE HE CAN. He may get a few less touches in the post, but I guarntee those will be replaced by wide open dunks created by Jason Kidd. It would also be replaced by many wide open looks for the other players on the court. More scoring balance is not a bad thing, because if things aren't going well, you still have 4 down. This would create many more options on offense however, to back up the simple pick and roll and 4 down that has been our bread and butter for years.

The biggest question of course is who fills the void in the middle if Kidd comes. There are plenty of options, one being a sign and trade with claxton, another being using the limited cap space for a bigman.

I advocate Kidd as only a last resort, HOWEVER, I do not see at as a sign of doom if he does come. Great players find ways to play with each other and succeed, thats what makes them great. Both Duncan and Kidd are great, make no mistake about it, those 2 on the same team would be phenomanal, and calling a 2nd round exit based on a Kidd signing is VERY premature and shortsighted.

Bounce580
06-28-2003, 12:04 PM
Were you satisfied with the perimeter offense last year? I, for one, think it was wildly inconsistent. From game to game, we were always wondering who was going to step up big. With Kidd, you don't really need to worry about that. You've got consistency in the post with Duncan, and you've got consistency in the backcourt with Kidd (who always leads to consistency from Jax/Parker/Manu).

Also (I forgot to mention this in my last post), how important is it to have a center in the league nowadays? If this were '94, with the Hakeems, Shaqs, Davids, Patricks, Alonzos, and Dikembes, then it would be pertinent. But who are the star centers in the league now? Shaq....maybe Yao in a few years. That's it. The game has gone the way of the power forward, and we're pretty solid there. Don't get me wrong, having O'Neal would be a hell of a luxury, but having a great center isn't a necessity anymore.

Jermaine O'Neal would form a near dominate frontcourt, but where do you see more of a problem? A young up and coming superstar (O'Neal) playing alongside the best player in the league, who shares his position. Or an "aging" (didn't he just turn 30?) guard who is at his best when he's deferring shots to teammates?

*disclaimer: I'm still for O'Neal before Kidd (not strongly, though), I'm just playing devil's advocate. But, I'd be ecstatic whether it was Kidd or O'Neal down here on the 16th.

scott
06-28-2003, 01:08 PM
This thread is filled with a lot of great posts on both sides of the arguement, so I'm not going to bother adding my $.02 now.

I will, however, reiterate the same predictions I've had all along regard a Spurs with Jason Kidd.

1. We do not win the Midwest Division, and we fight our way to a 4 seed

2. Jason Kidd has a career low in assists (he already posted the lowest total since his rookie year last season)

3. Our defense goes from being a top 3 unit to a top 15 unit (middle of the pack)

4. Tony Parker lasts 10 games as a starting 2

5. Tim Duncan finishes out of the top 5 in MVP voting

6. We get swept by the Lakers/Kings in the playoffs

7. I start no less than 50 "Good thing we have Jason Kidd" threads

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-28-2003, 01:58 PM
Bounce,



You've got consistency in the post with Duncan, and you've got consistency in the backcourt with Kidd (who always leads to consistency from Jax/Parker/Manu).

The only thing the Nets offense consistently was with Kidd in the Finals was bogged down. The Spurs just wrote the book on how to stop Kidd in the half court, teams will have studied that tape forwards and backwards. And with Kidd not shooting worth a lick, he's a one trick pony. No thanks.



Also (I forgot to mention this in my last post), how important is it to have a center in the league nowadays? If this were '94, with the Hakeems, Shaqs, Davids, Patricks, Alonzos, and Dikembes, then it would be pertinent. But who are the star centers in the league now? Shaq....maybe Yao in a few years. That's it. The game has gone the way of the power forward, and we're pretty solid there. Don't get me wrong, having O'Neal would be a hell of a luxury, but having a great center isn't a necessity anymore.

And the other part of the PF thing is that you have to have weakside help with all the new hybrid zones. Further, teams are getting longer across the SF-PF-C part of their lineup, size is in.

Look at Phoenix - their shortest frontliner will be Marion at 6'8'. He's already got 3 inches on who will probably be our starting center (Malik) if we get Kidd. No thanks.

Sonics, Kings, Lakers, Mavs, Rockets, all will be sporting length across their entire front lines. We cannot hang with those teams inside with Malik at the center spot.



Jermaine O'Neal would form a near dominate frontcourt, but where do you see more of a problem? A young up and coming superstar (O'Neal) playing alongside the best player in the league, who shares his position. Or an "aging" (didn't he just turn 30?) guard who is at his best when he's deferring shots to teammates?


B. Does it matter that JO and TD both play PF? The Spurs don't play a traditional 1-2-3-4-5 offense. They play with two posts and three guards, so it doesn't matter who the two big men are as long as they're big.

As for Kidd, you're right - he's aging. He's only at his best when he's in transition, something SA showed how to shut down. And to top it all off on a defensive team like SA he'd be a huge liability against smaller guards. Parker and Speedy both had him for breakfast, get him to SA and you can start cueing the Marbury, Nash, Van Exel, Cassell, 'Dre Miller, Francis, etc. highlight films now.

AHF

scott
06-28-2003, 03:01 PM
Also (I forgot to mention this in my last post), how important is it to have a center in the league nowadays?

Considering that the last 5 titles have been won by a team with pretty good centers, I would say its fairly important.

Bounce580
06-28-2003, 03:05 PM
I'm just saying that the league has gone the way of the PF, where as in the mid 90s, it was a center dominated league.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-28-2003, 03:24 PM
Bounce,

You're arguing semantics. C, PF, what difference does it make, they all feature a guy who tears people up on the block, and usually has some range too.

Did you not watch SA and LA win the last 5 championships? Being able to stop the easy buckets is a cornerstone to championship caliber defense.

We won't have it with Malik at center and Jason "Swiss Cheese" Kidd guarding quicker players on the wing.

AHF

T Park Num 9
06-28-2003, 05:55 PM
I agree Aggie 120%


Kidd showed his supposed great D in the Finals against Speedy and T Park, and totally got burned.


Kidd's defense is pathetic.


NO ON KIDD!!!!!!!!!!!

Marcus Bryant
06-28-2003, 10:48 PM
This team struggled to get any offense when opponents clamped down on Duncan in the playoffs. Some of you seem to have forgotten that. This team cannot afford to stand pat as some of you suggest. The criticisms I see of Kidd's game and how he would fit in SA border on the hysterical. Go ahead and delude yourselves into thinking that he would be a detriment to the Spurs going forward. I'm frankly tired of reading these weak ass takes. Go post those at you know where...that's where they belong.

Jimcs50
06-28-2003, 11:28 PM
Marcus, you are out-voted, we are all wrong and you are right. Let us see if Pop agrees with you or the rest of us. Time will tell.

MannyIsGod
06-28-2003, 11:55 PM
the thing is while kidd is not the the best option, he is also not a bad option like some of you make it out to be.

it has problems, but it also has many benifits, something people fail to acknowledge.

SequSpur
06-29-2003, 12:10 AM
Kidd or Oneal is not a bad option. 2 of the best players in the NBA.....

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 11:01 AM
"This team struggled to get any offense when opponents clamped down on Duncan in the playoffs." — MB
If you're counting on Kidd to create offense in the half-court in the playoffs, you're like a penny with a hole in it — hopeless.


"This team cannot afford to stand pat as some of you suggest." — MB
No one is suggesting that we stay pat. The logical thing to do is improve upon the one position we are losing from the championship rotation — the center spot.


"The criticisms I see of Kidd's game and how he would fit in SA border on the hysterical. Go ahead and delude yourselves into thinking that he would be a detriment to the Spurs going forward. I'm frankly tired of reading these weak ass takes. Go post those at you know where...that's where they belong." — MB
The reasons for Kidd hampering the current team from going forward are well-articulated in this thread, unlike your baseless take here.


The only way I endorse a Jason Kidd free agent signing is if Tony Parker is traded for a budding star in the front court.

You want Kidd? Fine. You better be prepared to break up a signifigant portion of the championship rotation. Seems like a lot of work to do just to accommodate one free agent signing.

I thought signing someone to the max was supposed to be a no-brainer.

If it's got this many people divided, I can't see it being the best thing for the team.






:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 01:51 PM
Signing a run of the mill big is standing pat.

Yes, Kidd will improve the offense. Pop's not going to stick to 4Down like he had to with the current roster.

As for division among a bunch of armchair coaches that doesn't mean a damn thing...except that some of you are just a tad bit off. People complained bitterly when DA left, AJ, etc...

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 01:56 PM
Who plays center?

Who goes to the bench?

Question.

Next.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 02:01 PM
Asked and answered. Find something else to do other than asking old questions every fucking day, 'tard.

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 02:07 PM
Well, I am sorry.

Buying your line of bullsh1t that we can get Kidd and PJ Brown or Juwan Howard and that Tony Parker will make a fine shooting guard and that Stephen Jackson and Manu Ginobili will thrive off the bench is utterly ridiculous.


Sell 'crazy' someplace else. I'm not buying.


Nothing like blowing max dollars and committing 5 years to a Kidd who causes more adjustments than necessary.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 02:10 PM
Actually, there's nothing like passing on a great player for dogshit simply because he doesn't fit a "need". Your argument is so fucking stupid I cannot keep from laughing whenever I see you spew your nonsense in this forum. Yeah, it would be horrible, just horrible, for the Spurs to have Jason Kidd and Tim Duncan together for the next 6 seasons. Oh no.

There's nothing important about the Twin Towers concept. Great players win, not team structures.

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 02:12 PM
PF Duncan
SF Bowen
C Kidd
PG Parker
SG Jackson

Sounds great. :rolleyes

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 02:16 PM
?

Come with a point already.

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 02:23 PM
The point is, Kidd can't play center and you've failed miserably in giving a plausible solution for the starting center spot.

We'll be starting two good PGs in the backcourt, yet have no one to start at the C or depth there, either.

Keep up.

:cooldevil

adidas11
06-30-2003, 02:31 PM
Ghost, I'm with the line of thinking that Jason Kidd automatically makes any team that he joins exponentially better. A tandem of Jason Kidd with Tim Duncan at center would be devestating. The key, of course, is trading Tony Paker for a solid "4" to play along side Duncan. Of course, this would somewhat alter the championship rotation, but for the Spurs future this would still be an excellent move.

To summarize, Jason Kidd is a MUST pick up, if he can be had. Structure your team around the two superstars, and go from there. Jackson and Manu will provide the perimeter scoring needed in the tight half court offense.

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 02:33 PM
Fuckin A. Kidd can't play center so let's pass on him for Michael Olowokandi.

And the Spurs would be forever prevented from signing an average starting big, right? :sleep

It's significantly harder adding a great player than finding an average big in this league. But of course you knew that.

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 02:47 PM
I know what Jason Kidd brings to the table.

I don't see how he addresses any immediate needs for the Spurs, though.

He is not a second scorer or a center, two things the Spurs should be addressing this offseason.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 02:51 PM
Take off the fucking blinders. You don't know what needs JKidd would address?? How about giving Tim Duncan some real fucking help during his prime playing years instead of shit like Olowokandi, Nesterovic, Miller, etc? The Spurs won't have an opportunity like this again during Duncan's prime and you want to blow it on crap like that. Fucking brilliant.

Marcus Bryant
06-30-2003, 02:53 PM
Oh wait, so now the offense is a problem? I thought the only need was at center.

You know what? **** it. I am done with you and this forum. Should the Spurs be so fortunate as to add a Kidd then within 3 months of that you will be excoriating everyone that ever dared argue against his acquisition. You are such a fucking joke.

Adios, 'tard.

Jimcs50
06-30-2003, 02:57 PM
Nesterovic is not dogshit, if you think that, you are pretty dense Marcus. Why do you think a lineup of Nesterovic, TD, Bowen, Jax and TP would be any worse than last year's lineup?I think that would be a team that could be much better than last year, because I feel that Manu, Jax and TP will be better and Nesterovic will give more minutes than DRob gave.

Ghost Writer
06-30-2003, 02:58 PM
Dude, don't cry and leave like a little b1tch.

You brought up the Spurs' offense and that's why I countered.

Relax.

I just wish I could just have blind faith in the Spurs front office figuring out away to make Kidd work like you do. It would make this such a non-issue.


:cooldevil

bigzak25
06-30-2003, 03:13 PM
some of you guys really want JK here huh?
man it would be really tough to root for that guy...
and if our Spurs fall to the Lakers, due in most part to Kidd missing lotsa 3's...well...that will be that.

If they can get Brand, great.
Otherwise, Mourning if he can pass that physical.
Peeler if/when he's released by the Bucks.
Resign speedy.
Jax...I'd let him walk, but if pop thinks he's good enough defensively...then whatever works...

Now we're talking repeat.

ducks
04-25-2008, 10:09 PM
I take tp over kidd

Mr.Bottomtooth
04-25-2008, 10:27 PM
with ducks agree, I do.

pawe
04-26-2008, 01:50 AM
seeing him destroy the suns..tp all the way

anakha
04-26-2008, 01:54 AM
Almost 5 years? That's what I call bumpage. :lol

Indazone
04-26-2008, 02:06 AM
Tony Parker and Manu are both already light years ahead of Kidd. Kidd is on the downslope part of his career. He's gonna be washed up and out of the NBA in two years. Why in the world would anyone want an aging point guard who can't shoot threes??

Kori Ellis
04-26-2008, 02:11 AM
Tony Parker and Manu are both already light years ahead of Kidd. Kidd is on the downslope part of his career. He's gonna be washed up and out of the NBA in two years. Why in the world would anyone want an aging point guard who can't shoot threes??

You realize this thread is five years old, right?

Good bump :smokin

stretch
04-26-2008, 06:48 AM
Tony Parker and Manu are both already light years ahead of Kidd. Kidd is on the downslope part of his career. He's gonna be washed up and out of the NBA in two years. Why in the world would anyone want an aging point guard who can't shoot threes??

Manu isn't a PG. Bad comparison.

Kidd shot 46% on threes for us this year.

Fail.

sa_butta
04-26-2008, 08:14 AM
Fail.
Is what Kidd is doing in the playoffs.

DaDakota
04-26-2008, 09:42 AM
Mark Cuban should have read this thread.

:D

DD

Spurminator
04-26-2008, 11:31 AM
This thread is awesome

Capt Bringdown
04-26-2008, 12:20 PM
You know what? **** it. I am done with you and this forum. Should the Spurs be so fortunate as to add a Kidd then within 3 months of that you will be excoriating everyone that ever dared argue against his acquisition. You are such a fucking joke.
Adios, 'tard.

LOL, was this guy a mod over at the otter channel?

whottt
04-26-2008, 01:37 PM
tard was a great word that somehow fell out of usage...I say we bring it back. Starting right here, right now..

rAm
04-28-2008, 05:28 PM
tard was a great word that somehow fell out of usage...I say we bring it back. Starting right here, right now..

tard

And1Mak
04-28-2008, 06:38 PM
You spurs fans have got to be ecstatic Jason Kidd didn't join your team a few years back...Duncan-Parker are now a great duo (as Dirk-Harris would have been) and now your biggest rivals (Mavs) are a joke.

Jason Kidd, the gift that keeps on giving to the San Antonio Spurs.

Amare_32
04-28-2008, 06:39 PM
Mike D'Antoni the gift that keeps on giving to San Antonio.

Brutalis
04-28-2008, 06:53 PM
Hell I just wanna post in this fine thread.

SpurOutofTownFan
04-28-2008, 07:04 PM
posting on epic thread

E20
04-28-2008, 07:06 PM
Holy Shit Ahf Used To Sign His Posts. Rofl

ClingingMars
04-28-2008, 07:32 PM
posting on epic thread

tlongII
04-28-2008, 08:49 PM
I still want to know how you get to these ancient threads!... :madrun

ducks
04-28-2008, 09:08 PM
You realize this thread is five years old, right?

Good bump :smokin

thanks:flag::flag:

Red Hawk #21
04-28-2008, 11:05 PM
Wow this is a great bump

freemeat
04-28-2008, 11:18 PM
I remember seeing that SI issue when the Spurs won in 2003. It had the picture of Kidd in a Spurs' uni (hell, I still have it).

If only I had Kori's wisdom at the time, cause it seemed like a good idea to me.

Funny how, in hindsight, the Spurs are glad they didn't get Kidd and Kidd has always regretted not signing here.

Red Hawk #21
04-28-2008, 11:20 PM
Kidd probably would have found ways to fuck up playing in a great place like San Antonio...

sendman
04-29-2008, 04:35 AM
Kidd has this reputation, that he makes people around him better. I tend to agree to the certain point. But making people around him better, in his case, doesn't translate to TEAMs SUCCESS, does it?
As i recall, in all his teams he had very useful supporting cast, that played well even when he was gone. Were all that triple doubles just sand in our eyes? Was that just his niche to promote himself?

m33p0
04-29-2008, 05:25 AM
wow, i'm stepping on holy ground here.

sendman
04-29-2008, 06:16 AM
wow, i'm stepping on holy ground here.
You are certainly trying hard for that ayatollah of butt-kissing spot.:lmao

m33p0
04-29-2008, 07:36 AM
You are certainly trying hard for that ayatollah of butt-kissing spot.:lmao:lol

ForeignFan
04-29-2008, 08:06 AM
:worthy: Kori. Completely right from the beginning.

You had a crystal ball or could read into coffee powder?

:lol at SequSpur's comments...

Cry Havoc
04-29-2008, 09:53 AM
Of course now this begs the question: Where will Tony rank among all-time PGs when it's all said and done? Dude is about to turn 26 (his bday is exactly 5 days before mine), and might have 4 rings soon. Pretty incredible.