A Rule Change That Would Actually Benefit the Defense?

[rjv]

Hope this amounts to something:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31632458/nba-competition-committee-exploring-rule-changes-restrict-unnatural-jump-shot-motions-sources-say

[Rummpd]

Harden rule

[spurraider21]

1404261764410208256

[JamStone]

One issue that could be problematic is what happens when a guy attempts an “unnatural” jumpshot and makes it? Some of these guys, Luka, Steph, Dame, are talented enough and practice weird angles and releases where they can make those shots. For Pete Maravich’s sake, Steph made an off balanced lefty three when he got fouled this year. Unnatural or not, if they can make the shot, isn’t it a legit shot? Don’t get me wrong. I do think the playing field needs to be leveled for defenders. I’m just curious to see what ”unnatural jumpshot motions” includes.

I have just as much of a problem when fast little jitterbug point guards are in open court with a defender is trying to catch up and suddenly stops on a dime forcing the defender to fall right on top of them to get a cheap foul. Hey, what’s up, Chris Paul? Some of the calls Trae Young gets 40 feet away from the basket just dribbling and bumping out his hip to get contact are just ridiculous. It’s not just unnatural jumpshot motions that need to be addressed. Handcheck rules from like 35-40 feet away from the basket should be loosened a bit. The counter tho is that there are guys who take and can make 35-40 foot jumpers at a reasonably good clip so calling handcheck there applies. Shit, I don’t know.

From the step back to the side step to the Euro to the swing through, good to great offensive players have found ways to effectively eliminate good defense. So I’m all for helping the defense at least a little. But it still has to make sense and be practical for officials to be able to apply the rules in game action.

[Rummpd]

I am a HS official and young players doing this too emulating the stars. Was a point of emphasis at a training and we have been taught defender gets a legal guarding position but is tough as fast as action is. Going to be hard to call consistently especially in last few min.

[Neo.]

One issue that could be problematic is what happens when a guy attempts an “unnatural” jumpshot and makes it? Some of these guys, Luka, Steph, Dame, are talented enough and practice weird angles and releases where they can make those shots. For Pete Maravich’s sake, Steph made an off balanced lefty three when he got fouled this year. Unnatural or not, if they can make the shot, isn’t it a legit shot? Don’t get me wrong. I do think the playing field needs to be leveled for defenders. I’m just curious to see what ”unnatural jumpshot motions” includes.

I have just as much of a problem when fast little jitterbug point guards are in open court with a defender is trying to catch up and suddenly stops on a dime forcing the defender to fall right on top of them to get a cheap foul. Hey, what’s up, Chris Paul? Some of the calls Trae Young gets 40 feet away from the basket just dribbling and bumping out his hip to get contact are just ridiculous. It’s not just unnatural jumpshot motions that need to be addressed. Handcheck rules from like 35-40 feet away from the basket should be loosened a bit. The counter tho is that there are guys who take and can make 35-40 foot jumpers at a reasonably good clip so calling handcheck there applies. Shit, I don’t know.

From the step back to the side step to the Euro to the swing through, good to great offensive players have found ways to effectively eliminate good defense. So I’m all for helping the defense at least a little. But it still has to make sense and be practical for officials to be able to apply the rules in game action.

yeah theres definitely a lot to consider when making the rules. more than most people realize, and im sure i am missing a lot of angles as well. i definitely dont envy the people who have to review these things.

the main three that i have issues with are 1) swing through 2) jumping backwards into defenders behind you and 3) jumping sideways into a defender

i say just dont award fouls in those cases unless the defender is blatantly trying to foul the offensive player. if the offensive player initiates the contact, just let the play be and if they make the shot, good for them

i also feel theres extreme inconsistency between the continuation rule and ruling whether the foul was in the act of shooting. i think its ridiculous that a player can get fouled then intentionally take two more steps toward the rim and finish and its a bucket (even when they clearly had no intention of even taking the shot at that spot to begin with), but then when the offensive player sees a clear foul coming then decides to put up a jumper as they are being fouled, its called off. sometimes this ends up with fouls committed on a player who was trying to shoot the ball, not getting rewarded with the free throws. therefore imo get rid of continuation as well. only if the player was actually in the shooting motion when the foul occurred should they have the potential to be rewarded with a shooting foul. that would get rid of more frustration with inconsistent calls/interpretation of the rules.

but im sure theres very reasonable arguments for the other side of all these as well. its just my personal preference lol

[rjv]

One issue that could be problematic is what happens when a guy attempts an “unnatural” jumpshot and makes it? Some of these guys, Luka, Steph, Dame, are talented enough and practice weird angles and releases where they can make those shots. For Pete Maravich’s sake, Steph made an off balanced lefty three when he got fouled this year. Unnatural or not, if they can make the shot, isn’t it a legit shot? Don’t get me wrong. I do think the playing field needs to be leveled for defenders. I’m just curious to see what ”unnatural jumpshot motions” includes.

I have just as much of a problem when fast little jitterbug point guards are in open court with a defender is trying to catch up and suddenly stops on a dime forcing the defender to fall right on top of them to get a cheap foul. Hey, what’s up, Chris Paul? Some of the calls Trae Young gets 40 feet away from the basket just dribbling and bumping out his hip to get contact are just ridiculous. It’s not just unnatural jumpshot motions that need to be addressed. Handcheck rules from like 35-40 feet away from the basket should be loosened a bit. The counter tho is that there are guys who take and can make 35-40 foot jumpers at a reasonably good clip so calling handcheck there applies. Shit, I don’t know.

From the step back to the side step to the Euro to the swing through, good to great offensive players have found ways to effectively eliminate good defense. So I’m all for helping the defense at least a little. But it still has to make sense and be practical for officials to be able to apply the rules in game action.

i would hope that the general spirit of this proposed change would carry over to some of the samples you referenced and that there would be an attempt to police actions in which an offensive player is going out of his way to create contact with a defensive player.

[Spurtacular]

1404261764410208256

They already have the swing through rule to not give FTs for that.
But IMO a ref shouldn't be calling that, anyways.

[spurraider21]

its happening

https://i.gyazo.com/d096a1ec1c7260a95f9007d20a29dad5.png
https://theathletic.com/2666954/2021/06/22/the-nba-will-have-new-rules-to-limit-foul-calls-on-non-basketball-moves-what-to-know-and-where-things-stand/

[Neo.]

its happening

https://i.gyazo.com/d096a1ec1c7260a95f9007d20a29dad5.png
https://theathletic.com/2666954/2021/06/22/the-nba-will-have-new-rules-to-limit-foul-calls-on-non-basketball-moves-what-to-know-and-where-things-stand/

:clap

[apalisoc_9]

its happening

https://i.gyazo.com/d096a1ec1c7260a95f9007d20a29dad5.png
https://theathletic.com/2666954/2021/06/22/the-nba-will-have-new-rules-to-limit-foul-calls-on-non-basketball-moves-what-to-know-and-where-things-stand/

If this implemented 8 years ago, I wonder if Harden would even win an All NBA accolade never mind the fact that he stat padded his way through an MVP award like westbroob

[spurraider21]

the previous rip-thru rule was a bullshit half measure. they didnt (always) call them shooting fouls but still called them as fouls :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

Huge.


its happening

https://i.gyazo.com/d096a1ec1c7260a95f9007d20a29dad5.png
https://theathletic.com/2666954/2021/06/22/the-nba-will-have-new-rules-to-limit-foul-calls-on-non-basketball-moves-what-to-know-and-where-things-stand/

[ambchang]

Just like how they enforced the flopping rule.

[Isitjustme?]

One issue that could be problematic is what happens when a guy attempts an “unnatural” jumpshot and makes it? Some of these guys, Luka, Steph, Dame, are talented enough and practice weird angles and releases where they can make those shots. For Pete Maravich’s sake, Steph made an off balanced lefty three when he got fouled this year. Unnatural or not, if they can make the shot, isn’t it a legit shot? Don’t get me wrong. I do think the playing field needs to be leveled for defenders. I’m just curious to see what ”unnatural jumpshot motions” includes.


100% you know it when you see it.

[Isitjustme?]

One thing they need to fix is the constant whining to the referees. I am not an 80s NBA fan by any means but watching a game from then on YouTube when a guy tried and failed they just sucked it up and went on to the next play. Obviously there were whiners then too but it seemed limited more to dead ball time and not as blatant. Now the complaining is so shameless. Some of it is that literally a guy was embarrassed on a play so he does like a reflex move to show the audience he is complaining to the ref and it happened because he got fouled. Like a guy cant make a dumb obvious foul, missed shot, or turnover and just suck it up half the time. Worse is with HD and 77 angles the bullshit is so easy to spot.

[Neo.]

One thing they need to fix is the constant whining to the referees. I am not an 80s NBA fan by any means but watching a game from then on YouTube when a guy tried and failed they just sucked it up and went on to the next play. Obviously there were whiners then too but it seemed limited more to dead ball time and not as blatant. Now the complaining is so shameless. Some of it is that literally a guy was embarrassed on a play so he does like a reflex move to show the audience he is complaining to the ref and it happened because he got fouled. Like a guy cant make a dumb obvious foul, missed shot, or turnover and just suck it up half the time. Worse is with HD and 77 angles the bullshit is so easy to spot.

unfortunately there has already been an attempt to fix that and it didnt work so well

but at the same time i get it, when refs officiate so inconsistently as they do these days, its hard to blame the players for getting so upset and frustrated. plus when refs allow a lot of the whining to go on, then only hand out technicals when they feel embarrassed or tired of it, thats even more frustrating. it needs to be consistent.

i also think officials need to be held much more accountable for bad calls and poor judgement, and there should perhaps even be more transparency in how referees are dealt with when they screw up royally.

if they fix the flawed rules and inconsistent officiating, then players will complain less. and by fixing the flaws in officiating, it gives the league more of a leg to stand on when trying to curtail the amount of whining that goes on. its hard to justify giving techs for whining when the calls are bad.

[spurraider21]

100% you know it when you see it.
yeah... sometimes a player contorts to avoid contact. so pump, try to get away away from the defender who left the ground, and try to get a shot off at an awkward angle, like brent barry vs derek fisher. no reason to call those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8BiwBXqZJw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8BiwBXqZJw

but thats way different from trae young or james harden jumping 3 feet forward to lean into the defender

https://i.gyazo.com/577e9db946b4e94ec2ecee6b68c53c4c.png

https://i.gyazo.com/c72b7819eaa72f6b24bbf9edad33b1aa.png

[DMC]

One issue that could be problematic is what happens when a guy attempts an “unnatural” jumpshot and makes it? Some of these guys, Luka, Steph, Dame, are talented enough and practice weird angles and releases where they can make those shots. For Pete Maravich’s sake, Steph made an off balanced lefty three when he got fouled this year. Unnatural or not, if they can make the shot, isn’t it a legit shot? Don’t get me wrong. I do think the playing field needs to be leveled for defenders. I’m just curious to see what ”unnatural jumpshot motions” includes.

I have just as much of a problem when fast little jitterbug point guards are in open court with a defender is trying to catch up and suddenly stops on a dime forcing the defender to fall right on top of them to get a cheap foul. Hey, what’s up, Chris Paul? Some of the calls Trae Young gets 40 feet away from the basket just dribbling and bumping out his hip to get contact are just ridiculous. It’s not just unnatural jumpshot motions that need to be addressed. Handcheck rules from like 35-40 feet away from the basket should be loosened a bit. The counter tho is that there are guys who take and can make 35-40 foot jumpers at a reasonably good clip so calling handcheck there applies. Shit, I don’t know.

From the step back to the side step to the Euro to the swing through, good to great offensive players have found ways to effectively eliminate good defense. So I’m all for helping the defense at least a little. But it still has to make sense and be practical for officials to be able to apply the rules in game action.

That's easy. If they make after intentionally drawing contact, it's no good. Don't intentionally draw contact.

[DMC]

yeah... sometimes a player contorts to avoid contact. so pump, try to get away away from the defender who left the ground, and try to get a shot off at an awkward angle, like brent barry vs derek fisher. no reason to call those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8BiwBXqZJw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8BiwBXqZJw

but thats way different from trae young or james harden jumping 3 feet forward to lean into the defender

https://i.gyazo.com/577e9db946b4e94ec2ecee6b68c53c4c.png

https://i.gyazo.com/c72b7819eaa72f6b24bbf9edad33b1aa.png
Don't know the bonus situation at the time but even if Fisher was called for a foul, Brent wasn't in the act of shooting.

[spurraider21]

Don't know the bonus situation at the time but even if Fisher was called for a foul, Brent wasn't in the act of shooting.
it would have been 2 shots for sure. i remember that was part of the dialogue

[Isitjustme?]

yeah... sometimes a player contorts to avoid contact. so pump, try to get away away from the defender who left the ground, and try to get a shot off at an awkward angle, like brent barry vs derek fisher. no reason to call those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8BiwBXqZJw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8BiwBXqZJw

but thats way different from trae young or james harden jumping 3 feet forward to lean into the defender

https://i.gyazo.com/577e9db946b4e94ec2ecee6b68c53c4c.png

https://i.gyazo.com/c72b7819eaa72f6b24bbf9edad33b1aa.png

The key thing is many times they are clearly aiming for the defending guys arms. In a normal shot you don't aim to have someone hit your arm as part of your natural motion lol

[Isitjustme?]

Like if someone's arm is out and its mainly stationary aiming for it as part of your shooting motion is part of how I would judge it.

[spurraider21]

The key thing is many times they are clearly aiming for the defending guys arms. In a normal shot you don't aim to have someone hit your arm as part of your natural motion lol
basically just have the refs watch a few minutes of Trae Young and James Harden foul calls. sprinkle in some durant/paul and there you go

[Isitjustme?]

unfortunately there has already been an attempt to fix that and it didnt work so well

but at the same time i get it, when refs officiate so inconsistently as they do these days, its hard to blame the players for getting so upset and frustrated. plus when refs allow a lot of the whining to go on, then only hand out technicals when they feel embarrassed or tired of it, thats even more frustrating. it needs to be consistent.

i also think officials need to be held much more accountable for bad calls and poor judgement, and there should perhaps even be more transparency in how referees are dealt with when they screw up royally.

if they fix the flawed rules and inconsistent officiating, then players will complain less. and by fixing the flaws in officiating, it gives the league more of a leg to stand on when trying to curtail the amount of whining that goes on. its hard to justify giving techs for whining when the calls are bad.

I don't know man. Being an official is a 100% shit job in many aspects. We have replay and maybe half the time I go "oh, watching it live from 4 angles I guess it is off the other guy," "wow, he was actually in the restricted circle." etc. Plus they get zero positive credit ever. I mean you ever watched a game with anyone ever and talked about how an official is good or that you like him? They are basically the punching bags wherever they go. Also, the reffing wasnt any better in the 80s from what I saw. Refs are graded behind the scenes and given feedback after every game so they are held accountable but its kept private for obvious reasons. Can you imagine if the ratings were made public and we knew who the bottom 10% of refs were? They would get shit on even worse to the point where their lives would be hell. You would probably say good but the fact is the guys in college and high school reffing arent stars waiting to be plucked and 10x better.

Honestly, I could rant on this all day..I mean the logic is that shitting on them all day makes them do a better job here?? Whats the evidence for this in terms of reffing? I mean I'm pretty sure there is none.

I guess being a ref you make good money and get to travel and see some big cities, Watch NBA games from the actual court, and maybe the upside is no one recognizes in public since youre a hated figure but man talk about a completely thankless job in terms of getting love or positive feedback. There was an article I read I think it was about some law firm or tech job where they worked people to death 80 hours a week so they raised the starting salary from $450,000 a year to $550,000...like 80% of the people in the article quoted said they didnt care about the raise.. one of the main things is all the evaluations were done for them by analyzing their score and having a computer spit out a number grade. They hated it and whenever they were quoted said it was "dehumanizing" over and over. Point is you can make half a mill a year and people they still wanted when they worked their ass for 16 hours in a day to have someone tell them "hey man, good job" "You really figured this tricky task out right." etc. Behind the scenes maybe refs get that but in public? Nothing but shit on all day and night nowadays.


Aside from feeling bad for them anyway...my point is the constant whining is so completely bitch made. Everything is someone else's fault. You got stuffed because you made a dumb move, it was off you dumbass, etc. man up. Jesus. Watching those boring ass 80s games it sounds corny but players had like more honor I guess you would say. A guy would get beat, stuffed, or dribble the ball off his leg and mostly get mad at himself which was almost like shocking to watch. I was almost like "man, there aint no replay just pretend you tripped and ran into the stantion not because youre a goofy uncoordinated fuck but because it was a case of third degree battery.

[Isitjustme?]

basically just have the refs watch a few minutes of Trae Young and James Harden foul calls. sprinkle in some durant/paul and there you go

Hate the NHL but they have this rule called "embellishing" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_(ice_hockey)) which basically punishes any faking and leads to suspensions. afaik it works really well maybe it doesnt but i think i read that it does work. I would have the player reps maybe vote on some of the plays or something. Like watch the videos of other teams plays and vote on whether they are flops, have the fans vote, etc. But really if the players have to defend some of the flopping you see nowadays they will get clowned on social media which many of them care about a lot for some reasons. Most players I would imagine find the flopping annoying but its like the cheating in baseball with the spitballs. Reading about that even some of the guys 100% against the spitballs do it as they feel it they have to to keep up.

[Neo.]

I don't know man. Being an official is a 100% shit job in many aspects. We have replay and maybe half the time I go "oh, watching it live from 4 angles I guess it is off the other guy," "wow, he was actually in the restricted circle." etc. Plus they get zero positive credit ever. I mean you ever watched a game with anyone ever and talked about how an official is good or that you like him? They are basically the punching bags wherever they go. Also, the reffing wasnt any better in the 80s from what I saw. Refs are graded behind the scenes and given feedback after every game so they are held accountable but its kept private for obvious reasons. Can you imagine if the ratings were made public and we knew who the bottom 10% of refs were? They would get shit on even worse to the point where their lives would be hell. You would probably say good but the fact is the guys in college and high school reffing arent stars waiting to be plucked and 10x better.

Honestly, I could rant on this all day..I mean the logic is that shitting on them all day makes them do a better job here?? Whats the evidence for this in terms of reffing? I mean I'm pretty sure there is none.

I guess being a ref you make good money and get to travel and see some big cities, Watch NBA games from the actual court, and maybe the upside is no one recognizes in public since youre a hated figure but man talk about a completely thankless job in terms of getting love or positive feedback. There was an article I read I think it was about some law firm or tech job where they worked people to death 80 hours a week so they raised the starting salary from $450,000 a year to $550,000...like 80% of the people in the article quoted said they didnt care about the raise.. one of the main things is all the evaluations were done for them by analyzing their score and having a computer spit out a number grade. They hated it and whenever they were quoted said it was "dehumanizing" over and over. Point is you can make half a mill a year and people they still wanted when they worked their ass for 16 hours in a day to have someone tell them "hey man, good job" "You really figured this tricky task out right." etc. Behind the scenes maybe refs get that but in public? Nothing but shit on all day and night nowadays.


Aside from feeling bad for them anyway...my point is the constant whining is so completely bitch made. Everything is someone else's fault. You got stuffed because you made a dumb move, it was off you dumbass, etc. man up. Jesus. Watching those boring ass 80s games it sounds corny but players had like more honor I guess you would say. A guy would get beat, stuffed, or dribble the ball off his leg and mostly get mad at himself which was almost like shocking to watch. I was almost like "man, there aint no replay just pretend you tripped and ran into the stantion not because youre a goofy uncoordinated fuck but because it was a case of third degree battery.

i dont disagree with a lot of this, but at the same time, it seems pretty obvious refs allow personal vendettas and biases affect their work and theres no repercussion for it other than players yelling at them a bunch to trigger public attention. i dont like seeing it, but i completely understand it too. refs blowing calls because of awful or biased judgement can and has cost games, and even playoff series, which in turn affect the players paychecks and reputation quite a bit.

take away the verbal abuse from the players which draws attention to the refs bullcrap, then how are they going to be held accountable? because its obvious the league doesnt, at least not to a degree that actually prevents them from screwing with game outcomes. its far and away worse in the NBA than any other sport.

[DMC]

basically just have the refs watch a few minutes of Trae Young and James Harden foul calls. sprinkle in some durant/paul and there you go

Basically every great player in the game not named Steph Curry or Lebron James do it as a 1st option.

[DMC]

i dont disagree with a lot of this, but at the same time, it seems pretty obvious refs allow personal vendettas and biases affect their work and theres no repercussion for it other than players yelling at them a bunch to trigger public attention. i dont like seeing it, but i completely understand it too. refs blowing calls because of awful or biased judgement can and has cost games, and even playoff series, which in turn affect the players paychecks and reputation quite a bit.

take away the verbal abuse from the players which draws attention to the refs bullcrap, then how are they going to be held accountable? because its obvious the league doesnt, at least not to a degree that actually prevents them from screwing with game outcomes. its far and away worse in the NBA than any other sport.

It's funny when they blow a call, admit it, then intentionally blow another one to make up for it at the other end. Also, do they just agree 'we're going to let them play" or "we're going to crack down on the fouls"? They all seem in step with the foul calling scheme each game. I feel like it's a league decision.

[spurraider21]

Basically every great player in the game not named Steph Curry or Lebron James do it as a 1st option.
lebron does it at the weirdest times though, like off the ball jogging up the court. but yeah, it's not his go-to move it it is with harden/trae

1399756990394507265

[Neo.]

It's funny when they blow a call, admit it, then intentionally blow another one to make up for it at the other end. Also, do they just agree 'we're going to let them play" or "we're going to crack down on the fouls"? They all seem in step with the foul calling scheme each game. I feel like it's a league decision.

exactly. the inconsistencies are ridiculous and its very understandable why the players whine so much, because its frustrating. for example, if in one game refs are allowing blatant hand checks, then the next game they call every touch, thats frustrating for a defensive player. or if an offensive is rewarded fouls from jumping into defenders on his hip, then suddenly the next game they not only wont call the foul, but either call it an offensive foul or allow the defender to blatantly bump them with no call, thats absurd. just set a standard one way or the other and stick to it. and as long as they keep allowing this crap, players will complain, and fans wont want to watch because it appears rigged to encourage playoff series to go 7 games, where suddenly all whistles are swallowed.

[Isitjustme?]

lebron does it at the weirdest times though, like off the ball jogging up the court. but yeah, it's not his go-to move it it is with harden/trae

1399756990394507265

If there was no foul called there too we know that Lebron (who I really like tbh so not shitting on him especially) would have gotten up and stuck his arms out to the side with a "wth!!" type response while jogging the court with his head shaking side to side as though he was the most beset upon victim since like a combo of Anne Frank and Jesus up on the cross lol

[DMC]

lebron does it at the weirdest times though, like off the ball jogging up the court. but yeah, it's not his go-to move it it is with harden/trae

1399756990394507265

That's just a flop. There's a difference between that and the up and under. I think most players flop, some more than others.

[lefty]

https://twitter.com/nbaofficial/status/1424437967494471692

[Neo.]

good

[Ef-man]

https://twitter.com/nbaofficial/status/1424437967494471692

If refs enforce the non-basketball moves to draw fouls, then the Suns overpaid CP0 as that is his bread and butter.