Why Is Swingman Depth Important?

[timvp]

timvp has been fighting the battle to add depth to the swingman rotation since August. He was met with resistance by Spurs fans saying that the Spurs were deep enough. Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry and Michael Finley were said to be an unbreakable quartet of players.

That lasted all of three regular season game. Now the Spurs are desperate for swingman help.

Devin Brown was signed by the Jazz this offseason. The Spurs brass wanted to keep him but they couldn't get ownership to sign off on the luxury tax that the contract would cost the team. Spurs fans waived goodbye to their hometown hoopster pointing to the recent acquisition of Finley as proof that the Spurs no longer needed Brown's services. This was the Dream Team remixed, or Spurs fans claimed at the time.

Now here we stand on November 17th, with the morning dew still on the season. The Spurs have just signed their second perimeter player in hopes of filling the void that never should have existed in the first place. Either the Spurs got cocky and thought that they didn't need a fifth swingman or ownership wanted to keep the purse strings tied up.

In addition to the lack of depth, the Spurs are now tempting fate with this short of a swingman rotation. Like clockwork, the Spurs enter the season with an idea of how the swingmen rotation will work out and it almost never ends up like that.

1998
The Spurs went into the season with four solid swingmen in Sean Elliott, Vinny Del Negro, Chuck Person and Monty Williams. Their fifth swingman was little known NBA journeyman Jaren Jackson. By the end of the season, Jackson was starting.

1999
Mario Elie started the year coming off the bench. He ended up starting and leading the Spurs to a championship.

2000
Chucky Brown was the opening day starter at small forward. He was soon released and was never seen from again.

2001
Danny Ferry and Terry Porter were starting in the playoffs. Who saw that coming before the season started?

2002
Charles Smith II entered the season as the 15th man on the roster. He ended up averaging over seven points per game.

2003
The Spurs entered the season with Bruce Bowen, Steve Smith, Manu Ginobili, Steve Kerr and Danny Ferry as the players who were expected to produce at the swing positions. As Spurs fans know the SIXTH swingman Stephen Jackson was the one who came in and helped win the championship.

2004
The Spurs entered the season with Bruce Bowen, Hedo Turkoglu, Manu Ginobili and Ron Mercer penciled in as the team's swingmen. In the playoffs, it was Devin Brown who came up big in the pressure moments.

2005
Glenn Freakin' Robinson got playoff minutes. 'Nuff said.

2006
The Spurs began the season with Bruce Bowen, Manu Ginobili, Brent Barry and Michael Finley at the swing positions. How this ends up is unknown, but Spurs fans should have learned to expected the unexpected.

Now what can be done to help solve the lack of depth on the perimeter? Well what won't work is signing non NBA caliber players like Melvin Sanders and Alex Scales. Those players will be forgotten about in a couple months.

The Spurs missed out on all of the young, cheap talent that was available this summer. Now they have to settle for the older players who are still looking for a job or troubled younger players looking for a chance.

Latrell Sprewell, George Lynch, Wesley Person, Ndudi Ebi and Rodney White come to mind. Would you as an overconfident Spurs fan want to see one of these guys added to the mix or would you rather hope and pray that what you see is what you get in regards to the swingman rotation come playoff time?

I want the Spurs winning championships. I don't want something as simple as a lack of a fifth swingman to come in the way of that. Right now that is a valid concern and a glaring chink in the Spurs armor.

What to do?

Question.

[Solid D]

Free Quatro Razor Forum

:smokin

[Marcus Bryant]

Good synopsis. I will add that the Spurs had a number of seasons in which they did not have the ability to add quality depth. That's not the case this year. For whatever reason, the Spurs seem allergic to giving up any of the luxury tax distributions. It's almost as if ownership thinks it's enough to be able to get to the Finals. Financially, that may be the case. But is that all that fans want?

[Spurminator]

Nick Van Exel would qualify as a swingman if you're going to include Steve Kerr. Essentially we have one more point guard and one less "swing" player. Sure, it would be nice to have five... or six... or a 20 man roster. But whatever this roster is lacking in comparison to other Championship teams seems to be satisfied, at this point, with Van Exel.

[Marcus Bryant]

NVE playing extended minutes at the 2 is not working.

[PM5K]

Who Gives A Fuck.

We aren't even ten games into the season, these guys will be back. Actually if this were the playoffs they would probably be playing, well maybe Brent and surely Mike.

We are also what, six and two? That's not bad at all.

It's easy to say you would have paid millions to retain Devin and to say you would have paid the luxury tax penalties, but in the real world, not behind a keyboard, it's a different story.

[Spurminator]

How do you quantify "not working"?

Steve Kerr never played extended minutes at the 2 either. He never played extended minutes period.

[PM5K]

And why are you referring to yourself in the third person, who are you Bob Dole, or Stacy Patton?

[timvp]

Nick Van Exel would qualify as a swingman if you're going to include Steve Kerr. Essentially we have one more point guard and one less "swing" player. Sure, it would be nice to have five... or six... or a 20 man roster. But whatever this roster is lacking in comparison to other Championship teams seems to be satisfied, at this point, with Van Exel.

The Spurs tried to play Kerr at shooting guard at times, but that failed. It wasn't until he was strickly a point guard that he produced to the level he did in the 2003 playoffs.

Van Exel is an even worse defender than Kerr was. He is so bad of a defender that the Spurs went out and got a 6-foot-2 shooting guard to make sure Van Exel doesn't have to play that position.

So you are happy with four swingmen?

[Bruno]

Spurs need a 5th swingman for the regular season.
You speak a lot of playoff, but you can have only 12 players.
You need five bigs (foul trouble, against Shaq)
You need too 6 PG/SG/SF (TP, NVE, Manu, Barry, Bowen and Finley).
The real question for playoff is :
- Should we cut Beno for the playoff roster for a SG/SF and play Manu or Barry at PG in case of emergency ?
or
- Should we have 4 SG/SF with NVE or Beno playing some SG in case of emergency ?

I prefer 4 SG/SF and 3 PG because even if a SG/SF is injury we still have 3 left.

Big dog was the 4th swingman during the playoff last year.

My POV :
Spurs should sign a 5th swingman (a SF) as 14th man for the regular season.
None of the training camp guy were good enough to be this guy and I don't like the Scales signing.

[PM5K]

PM5K has been saying all year that Timvp is full of shit, and that's all I have to say about that...

[timvp]

Who Gives A Fuck.

We aren't even ten games into the season, these guys will be back. Actually if this were the playoffs they would probably be playing, well maybe Brent and surely Mike.

We are also what, six and two? That's not bad at all.

It's easy to say you would have paid millions to retain Devin and to say you would have paid the luxury tax penalties, but in the real world, not behind a keyboard, it's a different story.

So are you are all for the Spurs taking a risk so that Holt can save $350K? I'm not.

The Spurs lobbied to keep Devin but ownership refused.

I'm on the right side.

[timvp]

And why are you referring to yourself in the third person, who are you Bob Dole, or Stacy Patton?

timvp wants me to tell you to shut it.

[Kori Ellis]

Latrell Sprewell, George Lynch, Wesley Person, Ndudi Ebi and Rodney White come to mind. Would you as an overconfident Spurs fan want to see one of these guys added to the mix or would you rather hope and pray that what you see is what you get in regards to the swingman rotation come playoff time?

Of those guys, I'll take Rodney White (as I told you yesterday). I understand he comes with a mohawk and some baggage, but I wouldn't mind his talent sitting on the bench.

For those who says "so what?" to the injuries of Barry/Finley. People shouldn't be so quick to think that these injuries are nothing. Remember Nazr Mohammed had lingering effects from a groin strain for several months last season. And Spurs fans should know by now that back injuries usually aren't temporary. Hopefully Barry and Finley will be healthy soon.. but I still think that having a fifth swingman on the roster is a necessity not a luxury on this team, considering the age of the bench.

[ChumpDumper]

Lynch and maybe Ebi are the only guys that really fit the Spurs' need unless White is primed for a defensive epiphany.

I'm all for locking up a true SF or tweener who has a conceivable chance to make the playoff roster. Otherwise I'll wait til March to panic. We did sign the aforementioned GRob in April after all.

[PM5K]

I'd rather they use whatever money they would have spent to sign one player on signing enogh to fill out the roster, there is plenty of talent out there that can be had at a reasonable price.

[PM5K]

timvp wants me to tell you to shut it.

Well you tell Timvp that PM5K said that PM5K never even opened his mouth.

[timvp]

Spurs need a 5th swingman for the regular season.
You speak a lot of playoff, but you can have only 12 players.
You need five bigs (foul trouble, against Shaq)
You need too 6 PG/SG/SF (TP, NVE, Manu, Barry, Bowen and Finley).
The real question for playoff is :
- Should we cut Beno for the playoff roster for a SG/SF and play Manu or Barry at PG in case of emergency ?
or
- Should we have 4 SG/SF with NVE or Beno playing some SG in case of emergency ?

I prefer 4 SG/SF and 3 PG because even if a SG/SF is injury we still have 3 left.

Big dog was the 4th swingman during the playoff last year.

My POV :
Spurs should sign a 5th swingman (a SF) as 14th man for the regular season.
None of the training camp guy were good enough to be this guy and I don't like the Scales signing.

With the new rules regarding naming your active roster one hour prior to tip off, perhaps teams will now be able to utilize their entire 15 man roster in the playoffs.

Anyone know?

If that is the case, that is another HUGE reason the Spurs should have signed a fifth swingman. If someone goes down in the playoffs, the new rules may allow you to sub in a replacement.

Hopefully the Spurs can plug this hole in time.

[Obi wan Ginobili]

Get over yourself and your Brown Loving Holt Hating antics.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why does it matter? Right now you have NVE playing out of position and you have Manu forced to play while he should be resting. You also have TP forced to log heavier minutes right now because NVE is at the 2. Is it really worth doing that to 2 of your Big 3 right now?

[timvp]

I'd rather they use whatever money they would have spent to sign one player on signing enogh to fill out the roster, there is plenty of talent out there that can be had at a reasonable price.

:lol

Now this guy sees that light.

Congrats.

[Marcus Bryant]

In addition, beyond the value of depth in time of injury, there is also the opportunity to use the IR spots to sign young prospects with the purpose of developing them for the future.

[PM5K]

Why does it matter? Right now you have NVE playing out of position and you have Manu forced to play while he should be resting. You also have TP forced to log heavier minutes right now because NVE is at the 2. Is it really worth doing that to 2 of your Big 3 right now?

Manu shouldn't be resting, the season just fucking started, what kind of pussy is he? TP is averaging the same ammount of minutes that he has for pretty much his entire career, and he's what, twenty-three? Tell him to get some nipple patches for energy like Timmy...

[Marcus Bryant]

Honestly, with Stoudemire basically out for the season, the Spurs should make it to the Finals while sleepwalking. It almost seems like ownership is content to make it that far and then whatever happens, happens. Sure, that probably makes sense if you are a fan of the Spurs' financial statements.

[timvp]

Get over yourself and your Brown Loving Holt Hating antics.

It's not about Devin Brown. There were about ten available swingmen who could have been had for peanuts. Ownership didn't allow the Spurs to sign any of them.

Who do you side with? timvp, Pop and RC or Holt and Holt's Cat?

[PM5K]

:lol

Now this guy sees that light.

Congrats.

Oh? I thought you meant that we should have signed Devin Brown... I mean I thought Timvp meant that we should have signed Devin Brown, which PM5K disagrees with, but PM5K does agree that the roster should be filled out...

[Kori Ellis]

Manu shouldn't be resting, the season just fucking started, what kind of pussy is he? TP is averaging the same ammount of minutes that he has for pretty much his entire career, and he's what, twenty-three? Tell him to get some nipple patches for energy like Timmy...

Pop has said repeatedly that Manu would have been resting if Finley/Barry were healthy. He has (had) a bad thigh bruise and they wanted to sit him.

[Marcus Bryant]

Manu shouldn't be resting, the season just fucking started, what kind of pussy is he? TP is averaging the same ammount of minutes that he has for pretty much his entire career, and he's what, twenty-three? Tell him to get some nipple patches for energy like Timmy...


eh? He had a thigh injury which clearly limited his elevation. He's been playing hurt. Let him rest.

[PM5K]

Pop has said repeatedly that Manu would have been resting if Finley/Barry were healthy. He has (had) a bad thigh bruise and they wanted to sit him.

He freaking wears football pads! Maybe we should get him a helmet too... Manu has played fine, get him a pair of nipple patches and he'll be good to go, hell get the whole team nipple patches...

[Bruno]

With the new rules regarding naming your active roster one hour prior to tip off, perhaps teams will now be able to utilize their entire 15 man roster in the playoffs.

Anyone know?

If that is the case, that is another HUGE reason the Spurs should have signed a fifth swingman. If someone goes down in the playoffs, the new rules may allow you to sub in a replacement.

Hopefully the Spurs can plug this hole in time.

I think you still have to define a 12 man roster before the playoff.

Would you rather have Beno or a 5th swingman on th roster ?

[timvp]

Oh? I thought you meant that we should have signed Devin Brown... I mean I thought Timvp meant that we should have signed Devin Brown, which PM5K disagrees with, but PM5K does agree that the roster should be filled out...

Tell P5MK to read the first post in the thread again.

[PM5K]

I think you still have to define a 12 man roster before the playoff.

Would you rather have Beno or a 5th swingman on th roster ?

Good question. Beno is a turnover machine, I'd rather see Tony, Nick, Brent, Manu, or Mike bringing the ball up than Beno...

[timvp]

I think you still have to define a 12 man roster before the playoff.

Would you rather have Beno or a 5th swingman on th roster ?

5th swingman. We saw what Beno can do in the playoffs.

It wasn't pretty.

[PM5K]

Tell P5MK to read the first post in the thread again.

I haven't been able to get a hold of him, email and phone calls have gone unanswered, I'll see what I can do...

[T Park]

Latrell Sprewell???

No thanks.

[timvp]

Latrell Sprewell???

No thanks.

He avoids the questions.

Nice.

[PM5K]

Intersetingly though, people talk about developing future talent, I think with time Beno could be better, but he needs that time on the cour during the playoffs to make his mistakes and learn from them...

[2centsworth]

2cents told me to tell you that the regular season sucks and he can't wait until the playoffs.

[Kori Ellis]

Intersetingly though, people talk about developing future talent, I think with time Beno could be better, but he needs that time on the cour during the playoffs to make his mistakes and learn from them...

So you think the Spurs should let him play through his mistakes? Or send him to the D-League to get playing time? Would you play him ahead of NVE?

[PM5K]

2cents told me to tell you that the regular season sucks and he can't wait until the playoffs.

2cents told you to tell who? Should who tell anyone else?

[timvp]

Intersetingly though, people talk about developing future talent, I think with time Beno could be better, but he needs that time on the cour during the playoffs to make his mistakes and learn from them...

I'll teach him.

Sincerley,

Lindsey Hunter

:fro

[PM5K]

So you think the Spurs should let him play through his mistakes? Or send him to the D-League to get playing time? Would you play him ahead of NVE?

That's a good point, maybe right now it's time better spent there because he won't play much here. I'd never put him ahead of NVE but I do think he's got talent and I do think he's making some of the same types of rookie mistakes that Tony made but he hasn't had the chance to work through them.

[spurster]

No team can afford to pay players 13-15 multimillion contracts. It's not just a Holt is cheap thing. If you look at your examples, what 13-15 players or 5th swingmen were making more than the min? Arguing that the Spurs should now pay more for the 5th swingman when they never have in the past is absurd.

I don't think it's only a matter of the Spurs being cheap, but also the quality of who will come in and is willing to take on the reserve role. This is shown by Sanders and Scales as the best the Spurs can come up.

[ChumpDumper]

Beno should be in Austin -- and if he can't beat out Derrick Zimmerman, the Spurs should sign Derrick.

[PM5K]

I don't know that our swingman have ever been this old..

[Kori Ellis]

Beno should be in Austin -- and if he can't beat out Derek Zimmerman, the Spurs should sign Derek.

:lmao

[Marcus Bryant]

No team can afford to pay players 13-15 multimillion contracts. It's not just a Holt is cheap thing. If you look at your examples, what 13-15 players or 5th swingmen were making more than the min? Arguing that the Spurs should now pay more for the 5th swingman when they never have in the past is absurd.

I don't think it's only a matter of the Spurs being cheap, but also the quality of who will come in and is willing to take on the reserve role. This is shown by Sanders and Scales as the best the Spurs can come up.

It's not just that. It's about who is willing to sign a non-guaranteed contract and only stick around for a couple of weeks.

[timvp]

No team can afford to pay players 13-15 multimillion contracts. It's not just a Holt is cheap thing. If you look at your examples, what 13-15 players or 5th swingmen were making more than the min? Arguing that the Spurs should now pay more for the 5th swingman when they never have in the past is absurd.

I don't think it's only a matter of the Spurs being cheap, but also the quality of who will come in and is willing to take on the reserve role. This is shown by Sanders and Scales as the best the Spurs can come up.

Then what is the excuse for not signing Matt Barnes, DerMarr Johnson and all the other cheap, young talent the front office was barred from signing?

[PM5K]

I'd sign a non guaranteed contract...

[Bruno]

5th swingman. We saw what Beno can do in the playoffs.

It wasn't pretty.

He sucks against the best defensive backcourt and he was a rookie.

The matter is that Finley and Barry are quite redondant.
With 4 swingmen, if Bowen is in foul trouble (it happens sometimes), you have nobody to defend on guys like Tmac.
With 5 swingmen, you have only 2 PG : if Tony is out, it will be difficult.

For me you have two matters :

- The lack of a 14th man for the regular season.
- The Fact that our bench swingmen are too similar. maybe we should trade barry ?

[timvp]

:lmao

You laugh but when Beno brings the ball up the court, I get the feeling he should order this for christmas.


http://members.aol.com/coachmjw/basketball-videos.gif

[Marcus Bryant]

What would make sense is to add a 3 like GRobinson or Lynch and send Beno to Austin.

[Kori Ellis]

You laugh but when Beno brings the ball up the court, I get the feeling he should order this for christmas.


http://members.aol.com/coachmjw/basketball-videos.gif

I was laughing at the thought of Zimmerman beating him out in Austin.

[spurster]

Then what is the excuse for not signing Matt Barnes, DerMarr Johnson and all the other cheap, young talent the front office was barred from signing?
Link? Or rumor?

[Kori Ellis]

Link? Or rumor?

Rumor/assumption.

[Bruno]

Dermarr Johnson has turned offers greater than the minimum to stay with Denver.
The only one we could have had is Barnes.

[ploto]

Just because players didn't come here doesn't mean the Spurs weren't interested or didn't make offers. The Spurs were in negotiations with other players when Finley decided to come-- Jason Kapono for one. Why do you think he signed so late with Miami-- October 2?

[2centsworth]

As I said before Beno is too slow for the point guard position. His future is as a Steve Kerr type.

[howard2]

Does anyone know how bad Brent Barry and Michael Finley injuries are?

[Kori Ellis]

Does anyone know how bad Brent Barry and Michael Finley injuries are?

Pop said yesterday that they'd likely be out another five days or so.

[5ToolMan]

It's not about Devin Brown. There were about ten available swingmen who could have been had for peanuts. Ownership didn't allow the Spurs to sign any of them.

Who do you side with? timvp, Pop and RC or Holt and Holt's Cat?

And all the 10 swingmen who could be had for peanuts and a few extra are there for the taking, if needed. Of the swingmen out there, none would even see the floor if not for unexpected injury.

If you are going to act like it was a major oversight not to have an extra scrub, what trash would you spew if Duncan, Manu or Parker went down. Would Holt be to blame because he did not spemd to stash another star ready to step in.?

Why all the hate for Holt? It just looks silly.

Ownership has a voice, but as has been seen on multiple occasions, Holt will take his marching orders from Pop and RC when it comes to pulling the trigger on roster moves.

The management TEAM, which includes ownership; all understand that shrew fiscally prudent roster decisions have had a huge impact on the Spurs championship success.

[wildbill2u]

Pop said yesterday that they'd likely be out another five days or so.

All of this furor is over a short stretch of the season where we've had injuries to all of our swingmen at the same time. At 6-2, in Nov. I don't see panic as a solution. Let's see what happens when they return.

As far as another swingman, I don't see him getting ANY time if they return. Anyone who we'd be interested in as a real future player wouldn't get enough time to stay in game shape.

And some, like Ebi, wouldn't accept a seat at the end of the bench.

[SequSpur]

Who is this timvp guy anyway?

[Marcus Bryant]

And all the 10 swingmen who could be had for peanuts and a few extra are there for the taking, if needed. Of the swingmen out there, none would even see the floor if not for unexpected injury.

If you are going to act like it was a major oversight not to have an extra scrub, what trash would you spew if Duncan, Manu or Parker went down. Would Holt be to blame because he did not spemd to stash another star ready to step in.?

Why all the hate for Holt? It just looks silly.

Ownership has a voice, but as has been seen on multiple occasions, Holt will take his marching orders from Pop and RC when it comes to pulling the trigger on roster moves.

The management TEAM, which includes ownership; all understand that shrew fiscally prudent roster decisions have had a huge impact on the Spurs championship success.


Why limit yourself over a relatively minor payroll expense addition in the NBA? We're not discussing the potential addition of a $50 mil, 6 year contract. Sure, you can be prolifigate in the NBA but you can also be a bit too tight.

[Mark in Austin]

Seems like a no-brainer at this point would be to bring back Big Dog. Known quantity, instant offense, mid range game, pro-rated salary (league picks up a chunk of all 10 year vet min contracts), would probably cost the Spurs less than half of what it would have cost to keep Devin, familiar with the system, true small forward.

Sign him up. :tu

[strangeweather]

And some, like Ebi, wouldn't accept a seat at the end of the bench.

When everyone's healthy, it wouldn't even be at the end of the bench. It would be in street clothes. It takes the right kind of player to spend the season on the inactive list and not be a potential problem. Normally the guys are either kids who are trying to break into the league or well-adjusted guys like Marks who know the score and can accept that they've got a pretty good deal.

Personally, I'd rather take a chance on a guy like Sanders who is hungry for a chance than a guy like Rodney White who has had teams begging to keep giving him chances, but who has repeatedly squandered them all.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

you have Manu forced to play while he should be resting.

Yeah Marcus, watching Manu tear up Houston tonight I can't help but think the guy needs rest :lol

[mookie2001]

wing depth is just as important as post depth, which are twice as important as point depth

weird

[spurster]

I am reminded of the Spurs cheapskateness watching Derek Anderson excel on the Rockets.

[PM5K]

I am reminded of the Spurs cheapskateness watching Derek Anderson excel on the Rockets.

He has two points, for the season he is averaging ten. He's an amnesty player which basically means his previous team (Portland) found out he was grossly overpaid....

[strangeweather]

I am reminded of the Spurs cheapskateness watching Derek Anderson excel on the Rockets.

This is irony, right?

Every time I see DA, I think of the bullet the Spurs dodged.

[JUUOT]

Spurs need a 5th swingman for the regular season.
You speak a lot of playoff, but you can have only 12 players.
You need five bigs (foul trouble, against Shaq)
You need too 6 PG/SG/SF (TP, NVE, Manu, Barry, Bowen and Finley).
The real question for playoff is :
- Should we cut Beno for the playoff roster for a SG/SF and play Manu or Barry at PG in case of emergency ?
or
- Should we have 4 SG/SF with NVE or Beno playing some SG in case of emergency ?

I prefer 4 SG/SF and 3 PG because even if a SG/SF is injury we still have 3 left.

Big dog was the 4th swingman during the playoff last year.

My POV :
Spurs should sign a 5th swingman (a SF) as 14th man for the regular season.
None of the training camp guy were good enough to be this guy and I don't like the Scales signing.

La france a parlé!
I completely 120% agree.

PS: i respect all opinions but i have to admit i am very irritated by persons that keeps talking about themselves at the third person! Timvp??? are you having a bigheadcomplex?