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scott
06-17-2003, 01:49 PM
Here's Chad Ford's forecast of where all the top free agents will land. He's predicting Kandi and Maggette for the Spurs:

insider.espn.go.com/insid...id=1569084 (http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/story?id=1569084)

Now that Tim Duncan and the Spurs have officially ended the season and the NBA draft debate is in full swing, it's time to take a step back and survey the free-agent landscape. As great as draft picks are, few of them make a major impact these days. Only LeBron James, Darko Milicic and Carmelo Anthony are expected to make significant impacts this year.

With teams like Chicago, Miami and Toronto losing their patience with the whole rebuilding thing, free agency, not the draft, is where they'll have to look to find impact players. The last thing the Bulls need is another lottery stud who thinks he's the center of the universe. There's been a lot of talk for the past year about the golden free-agent class of 2003. Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal, Gary Payton ...

The names might be A-list, but the teams with enough cap room to actually lure them away are all small-time gigs. San Antonio, Utah, Denver and the Clippers have cash to burn. But would Kidd leave the bright lights of New York for the sleepy confines of the Alamo? Would O'Neal bolt the up-and-coming Pacers for the down-and-out Nuggets? And once the Spurs, Jazz and Nuggets get done spending (we're leaving the Clippers out of this right now) is everyone else going to have to settle for a mid-level exception?

Exclusive complete 2003 free agent list
Key = (R) - restricted free agent | (PO) - player option

1. Tim Duncan, PF, Spurs (PO)
Outlook: All signs still point to Duncan staying in San Antonio. In fact, he may not even opt out of his deal. Given that the cap has actually dropped since he signed his last deal, Duncan would actually lose money if opted and out and went for a new deal in San Antonio.
Insider Prediction: Duncan will be flying the flag in the Alamo for years.

2. Jason Kidd, PG, Nets (PO)
Outlook: Kidd is still determined to play the free-agent market. Sources close to Kidd have indicated that he'd like to finish his career on the West Coast with a contender. The only team he's interested in with enough cash to sign him straight up is the Spurs. The Clippers would probably fit in that category too, but unless Duncan agrees to come along for the ride and Donald Sterling gets a lobotomy, you know that isn't happening. A return to the Bay Area also isn't out of the question. The Warriors have enough young assets to work out a sign-and-trade if that's where Kidd wanted to land. If none of that works (and nothing looks too tempting at the moment) Kidd will re-sign with the Nets and stock up on bridesmaid dresses.
Insider Prediction: Jason stays in bed with the Nets. No Kidding.

3. Jermaine O'Neal, PF, Pacers
Outlook: O'Neal was considered a lock to re-sign with Indiana until a late-season swoon put that into question. The Spurs, Jazz and Nuggets would all love to have him. However, Pacers sources continue to insist that O'Neal has not wavered in his commitment to re-sign with the organization. Why would he leave the comfortable East Coast (where he's clearly the best power forward in the conference and a perennial all-star) for the harsh and cruel Western Conference? Playing against Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone and Pau Gasol every night isn't a piece of cake. The only team with a real shot of luring him out West is the Spurs. A combo of Duncan and O'Neal would be frightening.
Insider Prediction: There's no place like home. O'Neal sticks with the Pacers.

4. Elton Brand, PF, Clippers (R)
Outlook: Everyone has interest, but so do the Clippers. Brand doesn't want to re-sign with L.A. unless Sterling also forks over some cash for Michael Olowokandi and Lamar Odom. Expect the Jazz and Spurs to flirt with him, but in the end, Brand will probably take the Clips' one-year tender and hit unrestricted free agency next summer.
Insider Prediction: Brand has to endure the Clippers for one more year.

5. Gilbert Arenas, PG, Warriors (R)
Outlook: He's the hottest free agent on the market. The Warriors desperately want to keep him, but the most they can offer him is $4.5 million next season. Expect teams like the Nuggets and Heat to offer him a contract starting at around $7 million a year. Arenas' agent, Dan Fegan, claims Arenas needs more money than that, but who's going to pay it? An extra $3 million a year may be just too much for Arenas, or anyone else, to pass up.
Insider Prediction: Arenas strikes gold with the Nuggets.

6. Michael Olowokandi, C, Clippers
Outlook: His stock has dropped considerably since last summer. Olowokandi held out for a max contract last summer, and right now it doesn't appear that the gamble has paid off. Injuries, a bad attitude and a terrible Clippers squad will haunt him as he tries to find another team willing to pony up the cash. The Heat, Spurs and Nuggets are all interested in Olowokandi, but at what price? If Sterling is willing to spend, a sign-and-trade isn't out of the question either.
Insider Prediction: The Kandi-man tries to fill David Robinson's shoes in San Antonio.

7. Andre Miller, PG, Clippers (R)
Outlook: The Clips can't afford to pay everyone, and most feel that Miller will be the casualty. Despite a terrible season, after Kidd and Arenas, he's the best point guard on the board. Expect the Jazz to make him a big offer. He wants to return to Utah and the Jazz would love to have him. He's a perfect fit in the Jazz's system and a great heir to John Stockton.
Insider Prediction: It's Miller time in Utah.

8. Corey Maggette, SG/SF, Clippers (R)
Outlook: No one's stock has risen more this season than Maggette's. We've known for a while that he's one of the best athletes in the league. But his development of a consistent long-range jumper has really opened up the game for him. Again, he's likely to be another casualty of the Clippers' salary-cap woes. The Nuggets looked like they're the most interested in bringing him into the fold, but if they draft Carmelo Anthony, will he be a fit? Don't be surprised if the Spurs try to get in on the action.
Insider Prediction: Expect a fierce bidding war on Maggette, and expect the Spurs to come out on top.

9. Juwan Howard, SF/PF, Nuggets
Outlook: Howard will likely go from being one of the most overpaid players in the history of the league to one of the best bargains. He's gained a huge amount of respect for the way he handled himself on the lowly Nuggets this year. The Nuggets want him back, but expect him to try to work out a sign-and-trade with a team in a better position to win now. The Pistons, Lakers, Bulls, Sonics, Spurs, Heat and Magic all remain good possibilities.
Insider Prediction: Howard wants to win without riding Shaq and Kobe's coattails, which is why he'll head back to Michigan for the mid-level.

10. Gary Payton, PG, Bucks
Outlook: The Bucks still maintain that they want Payton to re-sign this summer, but with the way they're playing, it may not be an easy sell. With the team up for sale, and the organization stuck in limbo, Payton will be out the door, too. No team is going to spend a huge chunk of its cap on a 35-year-old point guard, no matter how good he is. If he decides to bolt Milwaukee, the best he can hope for is a mid-level exception contract with a team like the Pacers, T-Wolves, Warriors or Heat.
Insider Prediction: If Arenas bolts, the Warriors could put together a combination of Mike Dunleavy, Chris Mills (last year of his deal) and the No. 11 pick that would convince the Bucks to pull the trigger on a sign-and-trade.

11. Karl Malone, PF, Jazz
Outlook: He turns 40 in July, but the Mailman continues to deliver. It will be interesting to see what the Jazz and Malone do this summer. The team would like to start rebuilding, but it also wants to see him retire in Utah. Malone couldn't command a huge, long-term contract anywhere, but he can still help a playoff contender if he's willing to settle for the mid-level exception. But can Malone really leave Utah?
Insider Prediction: The Mailman delivers to Utah until it's time to retire.

12. Lamar Odom, SF, Clippers (R)
Outlook: If he's healthy and gets his head on straight, he's a top-five talent. Pat Riley loves him. But so does Elgin Baylor. Will the Heat give him some love? If they do, will the Clippers match? Odom's not in a bad situation either way.
Insider Prediction: Expect the Heat to try to sign him, but don't be shocked if the Clips match the offer.

13. Brad Miller, C, Pacers
Outlook: It's not a great year for big men in free agency or the draft. That could mean very big things for Miller despite a so-so year. Indiana wants to re-sign him, but don't be surprised if the Spurs come after Miller if Kidd and Olowokandi don't pan out
Insider Prediction: The Pacers keep the other Miller home.

14. Rasho Nesterovic, C, T-Wolves
Outlook: Next to Maggette, no one has helped his stock more this year than Nesterovic. He's been a solid force in the middle for the T-Wolves. This time, agent Bill Duffy's gamble, he turned down a six- year deal from the Wolves last summer, paid off big time. The Wolves want him, and they'll have to pay handsomely to keep him.
Insider Prediction: Nesterovic sticks in Minnesota.

15. Jerry Stackhouse, SG, Wizards (PO)
Outlook: Stackhouse won't opt out of his contract unless he gets a guarantee of a big extension from the Wizards. That's not going to happen. The Wizards are shopping him around, but don't expect that to change his free-agent status
Insider Prediction: Stackhouse won't ever hit the free-agent market.

16. Richard Hamilton, SG, Pistons (R)
Outlook: He had a big year in Detroit, meaning that the Pistons are trapped in the same dilemma they faced with Stackhouse. They really want to re-sign him, but what is he worth? Hamilton can play the free-agent market all he wants, but with the free-agent talent pool so deep, there may not be any money left by the time Rip bubbles to the top. Look for the Pistons to get a real bargain on Rip.
Insider Prediction: Hamilton keeps ripping the nets in Detroit.

17. Keon Clark, PF, Kings (PO)
Outlook: Slender star was on his best behavior this season in Sacramento. But will there be any money for him this summer? Clark may be better off sticking with the Kings next season and then trying things again in 2004 when the free-agent field isn't so crowded.
Insider Prediction: The free-agent market's too crowded. Clark stays with Kings one more year.

18. Jason Terry, SG, Hawks (R)
Outlook: 6-foot-2 shooting guard anyone? Anyone?
Insider Prediction: The Hawks draft a big point guard, then keep Terry around as a bargain.

19. P. J. Brown, PF, Hornets
Outlook: He's not the flashiest player on the list, but his toughness in the paint could really help a team like the Lakers, Mavs, Sonics or Celtics. If he wants to bolt New Orleans and he's willing to play for the mid-level exception, he should be very popular this summer.
Insider Prediction: Brown watches Shaq's back in L.A.

20. Alonzo Mourning, C, Heat
Outlook: Mourning said he's been cleared to play next season. Can Mourning really desert the Heat after all they've done for them? In our book, after two years of paid sick leave, Mourning owes them a season or two at the veteran's minimum. In Mourning's book, however, it appears that he'll go where the money is.
Insider Prediction: Expect Mark Cuban and Paul Allen to get in a bidding war over the rights to Mourning. Both can afford to gamble with their full mid-level exception.

scott
06-17-2003, 02:00 PM
For those interested in the condensed version: this predicts we go after Kidd, O'Neal, and Brand but end up with Kandi and Magette.

Superstar+Parker+Duncan+Rose+Jackson+Manu+Bowen > Parker+Magette+Bowen+Duncan+Kandi+Rose+Manu+Speedy > Parker+Jackson+Bowen+Duncan+Robinson+Rose+Manu+Spe edy+Willis

SpursWoman
06-17-2003, 02:04 PM
If none of that works (and nothing looks too tempting at the moment) Kidd will re-sign with the Nets and stock up on bridesmaid dresses.


That is coooold. brrrrr :fro

scott
06-17-2003, 02:15 PM
While I'd much prefer the superstar- I wouldn't mind an offseason in which we got Kandi and Maggette.

I'm not at all fond of Kandi, but I see him as a slight upgrade over what we got from DRob this season. Alone, Kandi is reason to puke- but added with Maggette, I like it.

Maggette would represent a nice upgrade at the 2, IMO.

Maggette's stats:

31.3 MPG, 16.8 PPG, 5.0 PRG (1.2 ORPG), 1.9 APG, .86 SPG. 44.4% FG, 80.2% FT, 35.0% 3PFG

Maggette is an attacker along with having a decent shot- his aggressiveness shows in his ability to get to the line: Ranked 9th in the NBA in FTs per 48 Minutes, 8th in FTA per 48 Minutes.

Plus, Maggette is a "Balla"

Kandi's stats:

38.0 MPG, 12.3 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 2.19 BPG, 42.7% Shooting, 65.7% FT

I'd much prefer Brad Miller to Kandi, and the more I think about Kandi the less I want him anywhere near a Spurs uniform.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 02:19 PM
For those interested in the condensed version: this predicts we go after Kidd, O'Neal, and Brand but end up with Kandi and Magette.

:vomit

DeSPURado
06-17-2003, 02:34 PM
About Kandi:
The problem is from what I read about Kandi earlier this year is that he averages more touches on his team than anyone else yet was only the fourth leading scorer on the team. Such will not be the case in San Antonio, and his efficiency ratings suck.


About Maggette: What gives in San Antonio land, if he comes? I mean Bowen, Stephen, and Manu have that spot filled. One of our players would have to be gone, if we get Maggette.

Admiral
06-17-2003, 02:50 PM
Duke players rarely amount to much in the NBA (Danny Ferry is the obvious exception, SpursWoman). They tend to be either soft or injury prone, and it's too early to tell if Maggette will amount to much anyway. His stats are respectable, but nothing close to making it worth sacrificing two years to get him.

We have other needs that should take priority over a swingman, and we should pass on him unless he comes at a great price.

Ghost Writer
06-17-2003, 03:42 PM
"For those interested in the condensed version: this predicts we go after Kidd, O'Neal, and Brand but end up with Kandi and Magette." — scott
I'll take no pleasure in being right. Again.


:cooldevil

scott
06-17-2003, 04:00 PM
IMO, Maggette could lead to the possible departure of one Stephen Jackson. How much pleasure would you take in that, Ghost?

Nikos
06-17-2003, 04:02 PM
I really don't understand why we need Maggette?

If we got Maggette than either Manu or Bowen HAS to go because Magz is not a SF.

Honestly Magz has talent but I really do not think we need him. The guy has tunnel vision in the fourth quarter at times -- I have seen a few of his games and I could see the talent, but he also did not prove that he was a legit second star.

Also his team was just flat out horrible last year with all the injuries....Maggette got plenty of touches etc...

I could understand getting Maggette if he could play SF, but would he really be good at SF?

Personally I like Manu at the 2G and even Sjax at the 2G and 3spot along with Bowen. Maybe if we got Odom it would be a different story -- but I do not think Maggette would really be a great upgrade at the expense to trimming Manus' minutes and teams chemistry.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 04:07 PM
In regards to Maggette I really only have to say one thing:

Toenail.

OK, I lied, I have something else to say: what exactly is Maggette going to bring to the table that the Spurs shouldn't be able to get out of Ginobili and/or SJackson? Maggette can put up great regular season stats but those two just proved their mettle under championship level pressure. Maggette, in my opinion, is not a tremendous talent. He's not the type that you take no questions asked and then change your team to accomodate him. The only way that he is even a Spur is if SJackson is not brought back. F that.

MannyIsGod
06-17-2003, 04:11 PM
I think its safe to say the spurs would rather wait a year than bring in 2 clippers , unless we bring in odom and brad.

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 04:12 PM
Jimcs50
Homer -- run!
Posts: 2243
(6/16/03 8:41 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: well
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Pop traded Parker, he would be strung up on the nearest tree.....by me. Yeah, lets trade a player that will one day be the best pointguard in Spurs history so we can all lament about it for the next 25 years....that is smart.

We get O'Neal or we go after Brand or we go after Kandi or Mourning and Maggette, re-sign Willis, Kerr and Jax , then get Brand next year as a unrestricted FA.

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 04:16 PM
Marcus, Maggette would be even better in SA. He is getting better every year and I feel he will be one of the very top guards in the NBA in 2 years, maybe even next year. I have watched him play quite a bit since he came out of school(I always watch my ACC guys) and he has just become a stud.

Ghost Writer
06-17-2003, 04:18 PM
I don't know about the Maggette part, but it seemed to me for some time now that we'd wind up with Olowokandi — good, bad or indifferent.

Kidd is a non-fit here and NJ wants him back, J. O'Neal is the man in Indy and they want him back, Brand is restricted and the Clips have to pay someone next year. Payton, Howard and Malone are getting up there in age to bring in for a long-term deal. Superstars in their primes rarely leave their teams anymore.

That leaves Olowokandi — a devalued center that is not wanted by his current team, will not cost us the max and could fill the void at center.

think, people.


:cooldevil

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 04:29 PM
Ghost, I was advocating Kandi for a while now. He is just as good as an aging DRob and if we can get him for 1 yesr, until Brand is available, that would be great. If he works out, then re-sign him. Maggette is the 2 that we need since we are losing depth at that spot this year. Manu and Jax can all play the 3 as well, so there is room for another great 2 on our team

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 04:29 PM
Doesn't matter what Olowokandi will cost. The Spurs would be losing out on their one real chance to add a star teammate to this team during Duncan's prime. If you think that doesn't matter I refer you to 1989-96.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 04:30 PM
Maggette is the 2 that we need since we are losing depth at that spot this year.

Who? Kerr?

scott
06-17-2003, 04:32 PM
IMO, Kandi is only a viable option if the following conditions are true:

1) All superstar FAs are not obtainable

2) He comes for cheap

3) Brad Miller or PJ Brown are not obtainable

4) He is our secondary FA signing (Maggette/Odom/Whoever being the primary)

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 04:33 PM
Marcus, if the Spurs can win this year with a limited DRob who missed countless games this year ans was not his young self(not counting the last game), than if we add Kandi and Maggette, we will be even better next year, I have no doubt in my mind. If we get O'Neal, then that is one thing, but if we can't...ther is another tack to take.

scott
06-17-2003, 04:33 PM
Corey Maggette > Stephen Jackson

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 04:37 PM
Kerr and Smitty are gone, that leaves room for another 2. If Manu shares time with Bowen, then we can have Maggette and Manu and TP on the floor at the same time. Can you imagine the possibilities there in an open court? Then you have Tim and Kandi anchoring the middle on D....this team would be formidable indeed.

kohai
06-17-2003, 04:46 PM
Olowokandi...

:vomit :vomit :vomit :vomit :vomit

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 04:48 PM
Neither Kerr nor Smitty were fixtures in the rotation this season when Claxton was healthy.

As for Olowokandi he is dogshit, Denver will drive up his price, and I just have to say that he is dogshit again.

Ghost Writer
06-17-2003, 05:09 PM
1989 - 1996? We never won a title during that stretch, so that is not a fair comparison.

From 1999 - 2003, we've won two titles. We just won a tile.

Olowokandi = Robinson

Think.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 05:12 PM
Again, in 1989-96 you had David Robinson expected to carry a team without a star teammate. The closest perhaps was Sean Elliott but he fit the profile of an excellent 3rd star (ala Worthy) not a 2nd. Perhaps the closest was Terry Cummings in 1989-90.

Tim Duncan does not deserve the same fate for the rest of his career.

baseline bum
06-17-2003, 05:27 PM
I'll take no pleasure in being right. Again.

Like when you said we should trade Malik and Tony for GP? How about the Spurs not having a credible black assistant or how Pop would never sign a "balla".

Ghost Writer
06-17-2003, 05:27 PM
David Robinson never had a title-worty supporting cast, and it could be argued that Robisno was never the palyoff performer of Duncan's stature.

Not a valid comparison.

Duncan just led this team to a title. All he's losing is Robinson.

Olowokandi = Robinson

¿Comprendé?

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 05:37 PM
David Robinson never had a title-worty supporting cast,

Ok you seem to be understanding what I am saying.




and it could be argued that Robisno was never the palyoff performer of Duncan's stature.

Yet Duncan has had DRob at his side during those two title runs.




Not a valid comparison.

So it's not valid to compare David Robinson, one of the 50th greatest players in NBA history, a MVP, a perennial member of all-NBA teams, all-NBA defense with Tim Duncan? Get real. Both are and have been franchise players. Just as much as you want to claim that DRob has been fortunate to have TD as a teammate the reverse is quite true.




Duncan just led this team to a title. All he's losing is Robinson.

Has he ever led a team to a title without DRob?




Olowokandi = Robinson

Go wash out your mouth with soap.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 05:38 PM
Fucking A, Casper wants the Spurs to be scared money this summer and waste their time and money on absolute shit like Michael Olowokandi.

Grow some fucking nuts and brains for once.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 05:42 PM
And don't give me an excuse like he's their only option, he fills a 'need', etc...no excuses this summer. They cannot fail.

Ghost Writer
06-17-2003, 05:46 PM
RObinson's best days were behind him starting circa 2000. This past season, his production was more in line with Olowokandi. If you think Duncan's two title runs were incumbant on Robinson's presence, then you should be pushing for Olowokandi or another big man instead of a guard like Kidd or Payton.

Simply put:

Duncan's 2003 champion Spurs - Robinson + Olowokandi = Duncan's 2004 champion Spurs

When it comes down to it, we'll have to "settle" for Olowokandi, I bet. And that probably won't be as bad as you people think.

:cooldevil

T Park Num 9
06-17-2003, 05:53 PM
Oneal and Brand and Kidd or bust.


if you get none of the top three.

Just sign minimums and wait for next year.


If Oneal resigns and Brand gets matched,

WHAT DO YOU DO?????????

Go after PJ Brown? eh
Brad Miller? Yikes.....

DeSPURado
06-17-2003, 05:54 PM
oooh ooh Casper and SF going head to head. Good ol days are back again. And it only took two days after we won the championship.


RE Kandi. Look at his efficiency ratings Casper, and the number of touches he requires, compare that to David of this year and you will see there is no comparison even now when david is a mere shadow of what he once was.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 05:56 PM
Bullshit. You think the Lakers, Kings, and Mavs are going to roll over and play dead during this summer? Um, no. At a a minimum LA will be adding a real PF not the crap they had this season this summer. _allas will be adding some interior D you can count on that. And it's not just about 2003-04 it is about the rest of Duncan's prime playing years. You would have them piss away this opportunity on crap as if they get these kind of opportunities all the time. Show some sense. Show some nuts. Don't settle. Be bold. This is about giving Duncan the tools to dominate an era not just some half-assed marginal move using an undistinguished piece of shit like Olowokandi.

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 05:58 PM
The Spurs are a marked team you can be rest assured that LA wants blood next season. If the Spurs "settle" they are DOA.

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 06:03 PM
12 pts and 9 rebs is not dogshit...not allstar material, but not too bad for a secondary player.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-17-2003, 06:10 PM
Half the PTI crew just said that if we can't get Jermaine we should just offer PJ Brown, he would give us the stats and it would keep him away from LA.

Not a bad backup plan...

AHF

Marcus Bryant
06-17-2003, 06:11 PM
For a guy who gets as many touches as he did with the Clippers it most certainly is. Olowokandi is crap. All one has to do is see him play.

2nd star? :lol Right.

43.3% career FG% for a center? No thanks.

And the bastard's been injured on top of that.

CrazyOne
06-17-2003, 06:34 PM
I have to side with getting one of the big three... the planets and stars will never be better aligned than this, if we can't pry somebody loose from the frozen Northeast now, they're either braindead or not worth it. I would hate to see them settle for Kandi-man or other sub-par talent. If we can't get one of the big three, it might be worth the gamble to just get by with some small contracts and go for all the marbles in the next year... Tim and Garnett would be an awesome combination - if it could ever happen.

spurster
06-17-2003, 06:55 PM
Here are some stats for the bigmen free agents:

_____ Born __ Efficiency/Game __ Minutes/Game
Brand 1979 14.69 38.0
Brown 1969 18.06 33.4
Clark 1975 11.15 22.3
Kandi 1975 14.69 38.0
BMiller 1976 18.33 31.1
JO'Neal 1978 23.74 37.2
Rasho 1976 14.79 30.4

Based on these number, I would rank Brad Miller and Keon Clark ahead of Kandi. Clark's eff/game is low, but he has eff/min of 0.5, while Kandi's is less than 0.4. P.J. Brown will be 34 this year, so I can't rank him higher than Kandi.

Jimcs50
06-17-2003, 07:23 PM
KG would never share the spotlight with Tim, he does not even like Tim.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 10:58 AM
It won't be the Spurs' call whether they settle for Olowokandi or not. Despite having the world to offer the superstar free agents, they can't force anyone to sign on the dotted line.

Cap space guantees the ability to sign a free agent. It does not guarantee the free agent of your choosing.


:cooldevil

scott
06-18-2003, 11:06 AM
Cap space guantees the ability to sign a free agent. It does not guarantee the free agent of your choosing.

The most important nugget of truth for everyone to remember. Capspace can be a blessing and a burden.

Because of Pop's master plan, the Spurs are now in the position of upsetting quite a few fans when no superstar FAs are willing to sign on the dotted line.

The Risk-Reward relationship is most certainly inherent within the Holting Pattern. We will know soon whether or not we hit it big or we struck out.

Maybe it's time for some people to start thinking of a Kandi-Maggette offseason as less of a strike-out and more of a base-hit. It may not be the homerun we were hoping for, but we are still in play.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 11:12 AM
"The Risk-Reward relationship is most certainly inherent within the Holting Pattern. We will know soon whether or not we hit it big or we struck out." — scott
Thatta boy, scott.

Winning an unexpected championship during the last season of the Holt-ing Pattern also lessens the urgency to get a superstar. The front office may feel like simply re-signing the title team's nucleus and signing a capable replacement for Robinson is all the team needs. Certainly, the simpleton fans will buy that company line if it comes to that.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 11:29 AM
Cap space can also be used in trades. Given that the cost of cap flexibility this summer was Derek Anderson, an injured Lamond Murray, and Chris Mihm I think some of you need to ease up on the hyperbole.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 11:31 AM
Speaking of hyperbole, what team out there is willing to trade a superstar big man to the NBA champions for cap space?








Question.



:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 11:32 AM
Signing Olowokandi would be akin to a self-inflicted gunshot however.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 11:33 AM
:rolleyes

Indiana. Once JO'Neal informs the Pacers he is leaving.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 11:36 AM
This is exactly what I fucking hate. You bitch forever about the Spurs not being able to sign a star free agent. Not being able to make the big splash in free agency. And when they are in a position to do so you start to bitch about what happens if they aren't able to. Give it a rest already and enjoy the f-ing summer.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 11:55 AM
Um, you're the one getting out of control and throwing around the best case scenarios as givens like evry summer, Marcus.

I have been prepared for Olowokandi while most of you have been shooting for the stars for about a year now, pal.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 12:06 PM
Um, I actually discuss the situation at hand. You unfortunately take everything as some sort of guarantee. OK, so now you're "prepared for Olowokandi." Great. I didn't realize you were a fan of Derek Anderson.

Of course you are bitching about the Spurs after they just won their second NBA championship and have $15 million in cap room.

Clown.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 12:17 PM
Relax, Marcus. No one's b1tching except you.

You are the one swearing and making grand claims of free agents lining up to play for the Spurs.

Meanwhile, I have a truer grip on reality. Jermaine O'Neal would be terrific, Elton Brand would be great, Jason Kidd is tough to turn down. I doubt any of them are coming, so I am ready for Olowokandi.

Take some Prozac.


:cooldevil

scott
06-18-2003, 12:21 PM
Preparing for the real possibility that we don't end up with a superstar is not bitching.

Throwing a hissy fit because someone doesn't adhere to the utopian belief that every Free Agent in the league will want to sign with us above all other teams, is.

While we all want a superstar above all else, assuming one will be a Spur by the end of the summer has all the makings for disappointment.

Get used to it now to spare us the "We blew it in the summer of 03" threads.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 12:35 PM
You are the one swearing and making grand claims of free agents lining up to play for the Spurs.

When have I said that any of those top free agents are a lock to sign in SA? Not once.

The parade hasn't even happened yet and you're already moaning about the fact that things may not go perfectly this summer. Please, tell us something we don't know for a change.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 12:39 PM
Don't worry, scott. Should the Spurs not sign a star free agent this summer then those Payton threads were nothing.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 12:59 PM
scott is putting you in your place:

"Preparing for the real possibility that we don't end up with a superstar is not bitching.

Throwing a hissy fit because someone doesn't adhere to the utopian belief that every Free Agent in the league will want to sign with us above all other teams, is.

While we all want a superstar above all else, assuming one will be a Spur by the end of the summer has all the makings for disappointment.

Get used to it now to spare us the "We blew it in the summer of 03" threads." — scott
You're the one b1tching and moaning like a child to a parent after he's told that instead of going to Wally World, the family might have to go to Aunt Edna's instead.

You better get a grip, pal.

While you'll be throwing up at the sight of Olowokandi, I'll be the one who expected it to come to that.



:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 01:06 PM
scott didn't do jack. No surprise that you need someone to help you attempt to defend yet another offseason of your whining.

You are the poster child for prozac.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 01:35 PM
:rollin

Don't be a dope.

Anyone can go back and scan this thread and see for themselves me telling you the way it is and you crying about it like a spoiled brat.

I'm ready for Olowokandi. You're not, champ.

:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
06-18-2003, 01:44 PM
All is well when spurs fan and Ghost are at it.

:)

IcemanCometh
06-18-2003, 02:11 PM
Quit riding my coattails ghost.

I would not be happy with Kandi but is he really that much of a downgrade from what we have now?


Maggette on the other hand has the makings of a big time talent. Hes the kind of player we need on the wing, aggressive fearless big can defend.


I would much prefer the Spurs roll the dice with Odom tho sign both him and Maggette and take a lesser name big like Keon or Brad Miller.

Admiral
06-18-2003, 02:51 PM
Marcus is correct. Olowokandi definitely sucks, and better be way down Pop's and R.C.'s list.

However, Ghost is not being unrealistic to consider the possibility that we will be left with the option of signing Olowokandi. O'Neal, Brand, and Kidd could very well not choose to come here. If that happens, I would much rather save our capspace another year and make a run at Elton Brand in the summer of 2004..

The only way I would even consider Olowokandi is if we're talking no more than $5 or $6 million per year. None of this $10 million a year stuff for Olowokandi, please.

We've waited too long to be desperately signing someone just to fill the cap space or to try to convince ourselves that we signed a "name." We've waited this long, so what is another year in the grand scheme of things if it comes down to it?

MannyIsGod
06-18-2003, 02:53 PM
5 or 6 my ass, try 4 at the most.

Jimcs50
06-18-2003, 02:59 PM
Why are you guys fighting over something that we have no control over? We are agree that O'Neal is the one we want, but if we can't get him, it does not matter who we want, Pop could care less. Matt, do you remember in 99-00 when we argued over and over about whether we needed to sign Hill? It is a good thing we did not get him, it turned out. So , lets let the pros decide this and just enjoy the win.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 03:06 PM
IceMan, the only thing of yours that I ever rode was your moms. I've had enough of your jealousy.

Admiral, your idea doesn't sound that bad to me.

Jimmy, this is a Fan Forum. We're supposed to talk about things we have no control over. :lol



The bottom line is that the Spurs are not guaranteed to get any of the top stars. In fact, I find signing any one of them highly unlikely, even with all the positive offerings the Spurs currently have.



:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 03:08 PM
I would prefer to have my left nut chewed off by a pit bull terrier than to see the Spurs sign Olowokandi.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 03:10 PM
So I guess you advocate saving the cap space until summer 2004.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 03:12 PM
Actually I would prefer to see the Spurs come with a solid offer to GP and then use the rest on either PJ Brown or Brad Miller. Forget about 2004, do what you can to get real talent now.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 03:15 PM
I'd take that scenario over Olowokandi, too, but I think the Spurs will make replacing Robinson their #1 priority this summer.

I also think the dreams of Payton and a PJ Brown or a B. Miller are a little far-fetched.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 03:23 PM
Payton $9 mil starting
Brown or Miller $5 or 6 mil.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 03:27 PM
You might, might, get Brown to sign for $5 million, but not B. Miller coming off a career year. David Robinson earned $10 million last season for crissakes.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 03:28 PM
If Indy pays JO'Neal the max are they really going to be able to shell out the $$$ for BMiller?

IcemanCometh
06-18-2003, 03:33 PM
considering they got reggie coming off the books probably.

ghost i'm just tired of you co-opting all my ideas and claiming them as your own. who do you think you are george lucas.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-18-2003, 03:39 PM
Ghost,

Indy doesn't have the cap room to give Miller a big contract.

5-6 million will do it for Miller.

AHF

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 03:42 PM
The NEts could actually use a capable shooting guard with 3-point accuracy like Reggie Miller.

But I digress... Brad Miller, an All-Star last season, will command in the neighborhood of $10 million on the open market.

IceMan, I never claimed credit for your genius Lenny Cooke or Joe Johnson ideas. You were never a fan of Stephen Jackson. Get a grip.


I don't know if Jermaine O'Neal is as committed to winning a title as he claims.

The Clippers will look to re-sign Brand for a year, as they have to fill out the minimum for team salary next season.

We don't need Jason Kidd or Gary Payton.

PJ Brown or Michael Olowokandi would be adequate replacements for David Robinson and leave enough money left overto comfortably re-sign Jack, Ginobili and Parker.

Do the math.

:cooldevil

scott
06-18-2003, 03:44 PM
B. Miller >>> Olowakandi

Should we get to the point where superstars are no longer a possibillity- I would advocate the following:

note: IMO, Maggette and Jackson are mutually exclusive. We cannot have both.

1. BMiller/CMaggette
2. PJBrown/CMaggette
3. BMiller/SJackson
4. PJBrown/SJackson
5. JHoward/CMaggette
6. JHoward/SJackson
7. AMourning/CMaggette
8. AMourning/SJackson
9. Save Cap Space for 04
10. MOlowakandi/Anyone

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 03:48 PM
scott, none of your scenarios are all that overwhelming, but they are probably closer to what we'll wind up with.


P.S.

I don't want to suffer through a lost Alonzo Mourning season and I am skeptical of the "Corey Magette and a big man" scenarios. I think it will be the so-so big man and left over money to re-up our current nucleus.

Winning the title changed priorities and expectations.

:cooldevil

IcemanCometh
06-18-2003, 03:57 PM
uhm when stephen jackson was a fa i said we should sign him cause he might develop into something. about the only person who agreed with me was timvp or maybe spursfan.
2 years later you jump on the jax bandwagon.

face it ghost you're nothing but a frontrunning chump. you live in new england but you support the yankees what kinda crap is that. and you probably didn't become a spurs fan until 99.

Jimcs50
06-18-2003, 04:24 PM
The only one of us that has any vested interest in this FA discussion is me. I have $100 bet with pfc that we are going to get O'Neal, so you guys can all just kick back and relax and let me do the worrying. BTW, where is pfc???? I have not seen him in at least a month....maybe he knows something we do not know and has headed for Mexico with my $100.Ya think?

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-18-2003, 04:26 PM
Brad Miller, an All-Star last season, will command in the neighborhood of $10 million on the open market.


From who? The Clips?

Let's break this down Ghost...

The only teams with any kind of room like that are Utah, SA, Clips, and Denver.

Utah is going to blow its wad on Andre Miller.
Denver is going to open the wallet for Gilbert Arenas.
The Clips are the Clips.

There is no open market, and with the cap tightening up teams are more leary of taking on big contracts.

Brad Miller's new deal will start somewhere in the 5-7 million dollar range.

As you say, do the math.

AHF

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 04:28 PM
IceMan, you are dellusional. Being from the East Coast and a watcher of Nets games, Stephen Jackson was on my radar screen about the time you were smelling your cat's breath.

You're a cheap imitation of me with all the flaws of a knock-off.

:cooldevil

Cap Space != Superstar Signing

baseline bum
06-18-2003, 04:28 PM
No freaking way Brad Miller pulls anything close to $10 million. $6 - $7 million will be his market value. I could see Olowokandi at $8 or $9 million if Denver gets desperate.

IcemanCometh
06-18-2003, 04:36 PM
whatever ghost all you had a hardon for was gary payton

too bad we never made that trade huh

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 04:43 PM
If we made the trade for Gary Payton, we might be going for our third title in a row next season.

Dude, you're known for Lenny Cooke and posting like a retard.

Go screw.

:cooldevil

IcemanCometh
06-18-2003, 04:55 PM
yeah right cause i said with the 2nd to last pick the spurs should take a look at lenny cooke? stephen jackson used to be lenny cooke.

i was the first one to say the spurs would not sign jason kidd, now you claim you knew all along.

somehow all of my views wind up in your posts later on, with you claiming them as your own.

i'd tell you to form your own opinions but you're not intelligent enough to really contribute. so next time you steal someone elses ideas give them credit

Jimcs50
06-18-2003, 05:02 PM
I would never claim either of your posts. :)

timvp
06-18-2003, 05:10 PM
The Spurs don't need Maggette. What can he give the Spurs that Bowen, Jack and Manu can't? That doesn't make any sense.

Olowokandi hasn't tried yet in the NBA so it's hard to figure if he's worth anything. I've up-and-down on whether I'd like to see him on the Spurs. My first instinct is hell no but he might not be too bad. He's a big body, has solid low post moves, can block a few shots and would allow Rose to play a big role in years to come.

The drop off after O'Neal, Brand and Kidd is pretty dramatic. So if one of those three isn't signed, there will be plenty of irked Spurs fans.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 05:14 PM
If we made the trade for Gary Payton, we might be going for our third title in a row next season.

Shit, if the Spurs made the trade for Kobe Bryant they could be going for 3 in a row right now. That Payton deal is nothing more than an urban legend and for once do us all a favor and shut the **** up about it.

I love how the Spurs with Mark Bryant starting at center with no bench was going to beat the Lakers simply because of adding Gary fucking Payton last year. Your tales are boring.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 05:20 PM
IceMan, you have some serious issues. How come no one else besides you disputes the attribution of my long-running takes, be them good ones or bad ones?

You're like a jealous, whiny b1tch fighting for recogmition that you're never going to get.

Know your role and get in the back of the line, son.


:cooldevil

IcemanCometh
06-18-2003, 05:21 PM
maggette gives us a big 2g that can create his own shot and defend.

all those times you saw us struggling to score was because we did not have that kind of player.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 05:23 PM
"No freaking way Brad Miller pulls anything close to $10 million. $6 - $7 million will be his market value. I could see Olowokandi at $8 or $9 million if Denver gets desperate." — baseline bum
Wrong.

Do you think Olowokandi's market value is higher than Brad Miller's?

Brad Miller will absolutey command a salary higher than $7 million. Try looking up some of the high salaries big men are commanding these days.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 05:25 PM
Ice's takes, while sometimes a bit radical, are far more informative, accurate, and enjoyable to read than your PMS laden drivel that you spew in this forum. Chrissakes the Spurs just won the title with a young fucking crew, the best player in the game, and have $15 mil in cap room to roll this summer and you're bitching about the possibility that the Spurs might not end up with the perfect free agent. Enough already. If you cannot enjoy this moment you need a lobotomy.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 05:26 PM
Who the **** is going to pay Brad Miller $10 millon?

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 05:29 PM
DOn't kill the messenger, Marcus.

You putting over IceMan speaks volumes of your posting level, Marcus.

Again we enter another summer of you shooting for the stars, while I have both feet firmly planted on the ground.

Who knows?

Maybe this is the summer you're finally closer to the truth.

I certainly hope so, given that the climate for the Spurs to sign a superstar free agent will never be better than now.

:cooldevil

Jimcs50
06-18-2003, 05:32 PM
Who the **** is going to pay Brad Miller $10 millon?


Um...Spurswoman maybe? :)

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 05:38 PM
Again we enter another summer of you shooting for the stars, while I have both feet firmly planted on the ground.

Right. You said the Spurs wouldn't win a title during these two years. You also said once upon a time that the Spurs would never get a free agent of DA's caliber for the mid level exception.

Here we enter another summer with you bitching about something. No doubt you play a woman in the sack because you are a goddam expert when it comes to providing a good quality bitch in here.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 05:42 PM
You putting over IceMan speaks volumes of your posting level, Marcus.

Ice actually knows the game and the cap, unlike yourself. But I suppose Ice didn't start 297 threads whining about Gary Payton so he's not a quality poster like you.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 05:53 PM
Well, gee, you sure put me in my place. :rolleyes

First of all, I never said the Spurs wouldn't win it during the Holt-ing Pattern. I insisted on trades that would immediately increase their chances to win. And while I recognized that the Spurs front office would not make any major moves until summer 2003, you were still wrapped up in acquiring Latrell Sprewell, dingbat.

Secondly, I laid out the necessary rotation modifications to give the Spurs a fighting chance this playoffs. This was right before you insisted that the Spurs would never take Steve Smith out of the starting lineup, pal.


Lastly, you are the one getting all uptight when I bring up that despite having everything in the world to offer the superstar free agents, that does not guarantee any of them are coming here. I wager that if it comes down to brass tacks, the Spurs may go ahead and sign Olowokandi to replace Robinson for between $7-10 million.

You can't handle that kind of disappointment. Well, that's not my problem.

I see this summer's acquisition as gravy after winning another title in a rebuilding year.

Now don't get your panties in a bunch.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 05:58 PM
Wow. Mr. 20/20 Hindsight strikes again.

The only thing you've done is repeat "Holting Pattern" a couple thousand times. Of course, originally it meant the Spurs weren't doing what was necessary to win a championship. I'd hate to point that out because it tears to shreds your claim that you saw this coming.

No doubt now you will claim that it means something else.


Lastly, you are the one getting all uptight when I bring up that despite having everything in the world to offer the superstar free agents, that does not guarantee any of them are coming here.

NO FUCKING SHIT! WOW. NO ONE ACTUALLY CONTEMPLATED THAT PRIOR TO YOU POSTING IT IN THIS FORUM.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 06:03 PM
You're going off the beaten path. Again.

This thread is about you wanting to believe that the Spurs will simply have their pick of the superstar free agent lot and subsequently getting pissed off when I point out to you that the free agents still have the power to re-sign with their current teams.

The Spurs may indeed have to "settle" on an Olowokandi, because their are no guarantees with cap space.

Come to terms with the fact that despite having everything lined up perfectly to sign the superstar of your dreams, the Spurs are still the ones who will be trying to lure the superstar free agent to sign on the dotted line.

:cooldevil

"You get so emotional... you remind me of my b1tch." — 50 Cent

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-18-2003, 06:04 PM
Ghost,

I'm still waiting for you to tell me who is gonna offer Brad Miller 10 million.

I covered the teams with money earlier in this thread, and what they'll be doing with it.

There is no one to offer Brad Miller 10 million, so there's no way in hell he'll get that.

AHF

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 06:08 PM
Oh get fucking real. I've pointed out that the Spurs could not be selective when it came to pursuing a star free agent this summer. You've done nothing but say that the worst could happen and post your usual complaints about the Spurs not blowing their cap flexibility on Derek Anderson back in 2001. That's right, the same Derek Anderson you insisted the year before would never be a Spur.

"Things might not work out." - Casper

No shit. Bring something that isn't obvious you fucking genius.



This thread is about you wanting to believe that the Spurs will simply have their pick of the superstar free agent lot and subsequently getting pissed off when I point out to you that the free agents still have the power to re-sign with their current teams.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 06:09 PM
Aggie, why did you have to go and interrupt while I had Marcus's nuts roasting on an open fire?

The Pacers will re-sign B. Miller for in or around $10 million. Reggie Miller will probably play elsewhere or accept a really small contract to stay.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 06:14 PM
No doubt you hate being interrupted when you have my nuts on your mind.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 06:14 PM
Marcus, you dolt.

I was the one who clamored for the Spurs to let Anderson walk!

:cooldevil

P.S.

Stop getting emotional because I have the foresight to understand that if it comes to settling for Olowokandi, that might not be such a bad thing coming off a title year.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 06:18 PM
Ok, so now you wanted DA to walk but yet you complain about the "Holting Pattern." DA was a direct casualty of the Spurs opting for cap flexibility in 2003. What's the fucking complaint, now? That the Spurs should've made that deal for Murray and Mihm?

You don't have jack shit. All you've done is bitched about everything all the time, forgot about all the times you were wrong, and conveniently claimed to have known it all along.

scott
06-18-2003, 06:26 PM
Why don't you two bitches shut the **** up and post your preferences, in order, for this summer's moves?

We all want a superstar. Hopefully, we all know there are no promises one will wind up a Spur. Even if a superstar doesn't come- we still have a roster to fill.

What happens this summer no longer has any affect on whether or not the Holting Pattern was successful. The moves entailed in the Spurs strategy directly resulted in a Championship, although it came before it was anticipated. What is to be determined now is if the Holting Pattern resulted in a one time shot at the title, or a string of championships.

The latter can happen with or without another superstar, obviously it would be easier with one.

Contingency Planning.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 06:26 PM
Breathe in. Count to 10. Breathe out.

You're getting emotional again.

I recognized the signs of a Holti-ing Pattern shortly after Robinson was re-signed and we made a trade of talent for a cap placeholder (Kerr + Anderson for S. Smith).

You still tried to find ways for the Spurs to sign free agents and do trades like a jack@ss.

So don't tell me about the Holt-ing Pattern.

My complaint with the Holt-ing Pattern was my feeling that the best time to make a move to get another title was with Robinson still on board.

As fate would have it, the low-cost players found their way into the rotation this season and gave the Spurs the athleticism they so desperately needed and we won an unexpected title.

Get through your thick skull that nowhere in this thread will you find a complaint from me.

i'm happy we have validated the 1999 title with another one in a rebuilding year and have $15 million to entice a superstar this summer.

Your problem is that I am resolved to the harsh reality of what may happen should all the coveted stars pass on signing with the Spurs.

You're bothered by the fact that I can live with replacing Robinson with Olowokandi if it comes down to it.

Deal with it. You may have to some day in reality. B1tch.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 06:28 PM
Here comes scott the self appointed voice of reason.

scott
06-18-2003, 06:32 PM
Obviously necessary because you two dipshits can't go 10 seconds without digressing into "who has the biggest dick" contest.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 06:33 PM
You're not paying attention, scott. Casper's now talking about my nuts.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 06:36 PM
scott, with all due respect, stay the fvck out of this. Marcus and I have detailed our order of preferences time and time again. Don't get in the middle of this like a knight in white sating if you're not going to bring any clarity to the issue. With all due respect.

The Holt-ing Pattern's prime directive was to clear cap space to acquire a superstar free agent in the summer of 2003.

Winning a title this year was quite unexpected. Popovich has said as much in press conferences.

I believe that winning a title this year will indeed change the priority level for this summer.

the front office will not feel the extreme pressure to bring in any old star.

Because they won a title, they'll probably look to replace Robinson and have enough cap flexibilty left to re-sign the current rotation.

:cooldevil

scott
06-18-2003, 06:37 PM
Regardless of which part of the male anotomy is currently the topic of discussion- you are both fixated on problems. Let's hear some solutions.

Ghost Writer
06-18-2003, 06:39 PM
That's the whole thing. There isn't a problem.

At best, the Spurs wind up with Jermaine O'Neal. At worst they wind up with Olowokandi. This team is coming off a title.

It's not like the dropoff from Robinson to Olowokandi is that precipitous.

:cooldevil

scott
06-18-2003, 06:42 PM
Ghost, with all due respect, stop wasting fucking webspace if you don't want anyone else "intruding" on your riviting conversation. It's impossible for me to actually find any preferences you've listed, because I don't have enough time to sift through your numerous masturbatory posts.

Most of your posts are the equivilent of jerking off into a high powered fan. I'm sure you feel good about them, but you fail to realize that you have jizz all over yourself.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 06:43 PM
I'd rather they bring back that pink logo that made Ghost Writer a Spurs fan back in 1989 than see them sign Olowokandi.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-18-2003, 06:44 PM
scott,

Just let them be. Lord knows you've been in a few bitch fests (I remember being a part of a few). It's the off-season, it's what these two do best.



Ghost,

I jumped in because you made the comment that Brad Miller would command 10 million "on the open market", when there is no "open market." Indy won't sign him for that much because their owner wants to stay under the lux tax, and in the case of Jermaine re-signing for the max, they'll be damn close to it, even after saying bye to Reggie.

So the possibility of Brad leaving, and Indy not matching when they've got the likes of Bender and Harrington, and Foster (all cheaper) around, is one that definitely exists.

They've also got a Euro project they're looking to get more PT for (Primoz Brezec), and their lead assistant (and brains of the team) Malone just left for another gig, and Isiah isn't exactly the smartest guy around, so the Pacers situation (and that of Brad Miller) is very much a worthy topic.

Excuse me for bringing those facts up. Carry on with your nut talk with Marcus.

AHF

baseline bum
06-18-2003, 07:51 PM
I'd rather they bring back that pink logo that made Ghost Writer a Spurs fan back in 1989 than see them sign Olowokandi.

Damn! I knew you hated Kandi, but for you to take the pink over him let's tehre be no doubt as to your feelings! :rollin

It's funny three years ago we had giant circle-jerks about how we were going to steal Olowokandi from LA to be David's replacement.

Admiral
06-18-2003, 10:44 PM
This thread is about you wanting to believe that the Spurs will simply have their pick of the superstar free agent lot and subsequently getting pissed off when I point out to you that the free agents still have the power to re-sign with their current teams.

The Spurs may indeed have to "settle" on an Olowokandi, because their are no guarantees with cap space.

Come to terms with the fact that despite having everything lined up perfectly to sign the superstar of your dreams, the Spurs are still the ones who will be trying to lure the superstar free agent to sign on the dotted line. -Ghost Writer

This man speaks the truth. Read the above post, and then reread it.

When the entire Holting pattern/Fantasy Summer of 2003 was presented to us two short years ago, we were supposed to be sold on several key ideas and outrageous claims:

1. The 2003 free agent market was going to be filled with All-Stars and impact players like never before. Partly true. At first, the list of free agents in 2003 was impressive. People were getting excited at the thought of Shawn Marion. Some even predicted that he would sign with San Antonio. However, he quietly re-upped with Phoenix. Meanwhile, the list has been reduced to Jason Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal, and Elton Brand. Period.

Hardly the plethora of players from which we thought we would be selecting.

2. The Spurs would have no problem attracting one top free agent, maybe even two, because every player in the league would jump at the chance to play for Tim Duncan. Mostly false. I don't think playing with Duncan is a main draw for most players. Many of these guys are used to being the main star, and sharing the load (or worse, deferring to Duncan) wouldn't sit well with their egos. Some guys perhaps want to win a title that badly (Malone or Payton), but most just want the cash. This is especially true if such a free agent has a reasonable chance of at least making the playoffs each year.

3. Saving the cap space is worth the gamble. To be determined. If we end up with Jermaine O'Neal, Elton Brand, or Jason Kidd, it will have been worth the wait (although it's a stretch for me to say that about Kidd). If we sign just about anyone else, that means that we had to sign an older guy on the decline (Malone, Payton, Miller, Pippen, etc.) or a young guy who is either unproven or overpaid because we're desperate (Olowokandi, Maggette, etc.).

Everyone doesn't love the Spurs as much as we do. Let's just hope Jermaine O'Neal and/or Elton Brand do.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 10:49 PM
:sleep

The Spurs gave up on Derek Anderson, an injured Lamond Murray, and Chris Mihm. That's the cost of this strategy.

WTF are you complaining about? Honestly. Would you prefer that the Spurs have no flexibility to improve themselves with DRob retiring? Your boy got to leave the game a champion without the Spurs mortgaging their future. Be happy.

Admiral
06-18-2003, 11:01 PM
You cannot say that the only costs were DA, Murray, and Mihm. Unless you are really R.C. Buford or Gregg Popovich in disguise, you have no idea of the potential trades that were nixed because a player's contract extended past this year.

You have still not addressed the first two points from above, Marcus. Can you at least admit that the free agent pool is not what everyone assured us it would be?

Hopefully this will all be a moot point in a few weeks, when Jermaine O'Neal is a Spur.

Marcus Bryant
06-18-2003, 11:05 PM
The costs were DA, Murray, and Mihm.

No one assured anything about the free agent pool. The Spurs just lost David Robinson and you think it is preferable for them to not have cap flexibility? That makes no sense whatsoever and apparently Pop and RC know what they are doing because I believe I was at the SBC Center watching the Spurs winning their 2nd title last Sunday night.

Admiral
06-18-2003, 11:13 PM
WTF are you complaining about? Honestly. Would you prefer that the Spurs have no flexibility to improve themselves with DRob retiring? Your boy got to leave the game a champion without the Spurs mortgaging their future. Be happy. -Marcus Bryant

I am quite happy. DRob wins his last game, and we have a ton of cap space to spend this summer. Nothing to get bent out of shape about in my book. Free agency is the next goal on our list, and I was simply voicing my concerns and evaluating our options.

It is interesting, though, to think back at the opinions voiced two years ago about what would go down this summer. Things have changed a lot, haven't they? As I stated in my previous post, hopefully the dwindling free agent pool will not be an issue. Hopefully the fact that San Antonio is a small market with really hot summers won't be an issue. I just don't want to blow our money on an unproven player, a mediocre performer, or an aging star, simply because we feel like we have to justify the Holting pattern.

Go for O'Neal, Brand, and Kidd, in that order, and if none of those workout, extend the Holting pattern one more year. No big deal. As you said in another thread recently, Marcus, many people think too much about the short-term. Therefore, waiting another year to sign that big free agent isn't that big of a deal over the long-term, and Tim will still have plenty of good years left.

Guru of Nothing
06-18-2003, 11:25 PM
Therefore, waiting another year to sign that big free agent isn't that big of a deal over the long-term, and Tim will still have plenty of good years left.

Is it so simple that we can wait a year, if need be, to sign a second star? Due to the timing of expiring contracts and what-not, I thought we had to blow our wad on a max FA this year. Use it or lose it, so to speak.

Any salary cap gurus wanna give an abbreviated response to this?

If given the choice, I'd much rather pass on Kandi this year and wait for Brand (assuming no JO and no Kidd), but I don't think it's that easy.

Admiral
06-18-2003, 11:29 PM
Perhaps you're right, Guru. I am interested to hear what the capologists have to say, because I admit that I ride the capology short bus.

One thing we could do is offer a one-year deal to someone like Karl Malone. I don't particularly want him, but it would give us a competitor who can still play while also giving him a shot at a ring. With his age, he might take a one year deal. Same goes for Pippen. Sure beats offering a max deal to Olowokandi out of desperation.

scott
06-18-2003, 11:45 PM
The roster that directly resulted from the "Holting Pattern" lead to a championship. Therefor the Holting Pattern was a success. Just in a different way than expected.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-19-2003, 01:10 AM
Admiral, I gotta jump in...


2. The Spurs would have no problem attracting one top free agent, maybe even two, because every player in the league would jump at the chance to play for Tim Duncan. Mostly false. I don't think playing with Duncan is a main draw for most players. Many of these guys are used to being the main star, and sharing the load (or worse, deferring to Duncan) wouldn't sit well with their egos. Some guys perhaps want to win a title that badly (Malone or Payton), but most just want the cash. This is especially true if such a free agent has a reasonable chance of at least making the playoffs each year.


We'll be attractive for the same reason people talk about going to the Lakers every year, and for the same reason that Orlando could pair McGrady and Hill (at the time) - most feel you have to have 2 stars to win... Jermaine doesn't have a second star in Indy and his team just got punked. JKIdd looks around and sees a 3-23 Kenyon Starks and a guy in Richard Jefferson who is a great dunker but sorry shooter. Outside of that, who do they have?

Anyone on the Clips is self-explanatory, because well, they're the Clips.

On the topic of keeping our cap space for next year, we'd have to offer 1 year contracts (a good scenario would be to pick up Payton and Malone for a year, split the 15 million between them but save a little for Claxton) to go get Brand next summer. Then fill out the roster with minimum/vet contracts.

Unfortunately the other problem with holding over money until next year is we'll be faced with the task of re-signing Manu, and he ain't gonna be cheap!

AHF

RuffnReadyOzStyle
06-19-2003, 01:32 AM
Manu is a priority for mine - what do you think he's worth? I'm hoping he might be got for the 4.5mil exception, (42mil over 7 years like Malik?), but I'm not sure...

Unless we can get O'Neal, Brand or Kidd, and assuming we can carry our capspace over to next year, we should look to do just that. We all want a second star, why compromise and blow our 15mil on second-raters if we can't get what we want?

Please DON'T go anywhere near Kandi. He's a Jim McIlvaine-sized disaster just waiting to happen. Personally, I don't think Pop and RC are foolish enough to go anywhere near him (thankfully).

MannyIsGod
06-19-2003, 01:33 AM
great thread.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-19-2003, 01:44 AM
The problem with carrying it over to next year is the Manu situation.

I felt decent that with increased minutes next year he'd be interested in sticking around for a deal starting at the MLE.

But if we have 15 million in cap space again next year then we lose that MLE, and Manu's contract will have to come out of that cap room, and we probably would have to make some other moves to free up enough cap space to get a max FA.

AHF

Coolidge
06-19-2003, 01:48 AM
Ginobili poses no problems for cap room in 2004 as he will be an Early Bird free agent like Stephen Jackson is this summer.

SpursWoman
06-19-2003, 01:51 AM
Welcome to the forum, Coolidge :)



Great thread indeed :smokin2

Coolidge
06-19-2003, 01:52 AM
It's great to be here, miss.

Aggie Hoopsfan
06-19-2003, 02:55 AM
Coolidge, Manu is still a concern. Why?

Because with the Early Bird exception, a team may re-sign its own free agent for 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater.

In Manu's case it will most certainly be the average player salary, problem being if other teams with more cap room offer him a big deal (I believe it's the same situation the Warriors have run into with Gilbert Arenas this summer).

That's my concern. Manu's gonna be looking to get paid this next contract, we're gonna have to shell out some cash.

AHF

Whottt
06-19-2003, 03:47 AM
I think Manu is going to want to stay in SA, if we make him a part of the offense.

I think he will work with us on the contract as long as we don't try to turn him into a role player, because he isn't one.

Why aren't we talking about going after Mourning for one year?

He is hungry for a title and he plays hard. We don't have to give him huge Duncan like minutes with Malik and Willis on the team.

Sign Mourning...go after Brand in a year.

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 10:44 AM
Thank you, Admiral, for galvanizing what Marcus refuses to believe. Your take is refreshing in this thread of circle-jerking.

Cap Space != Supertar Signing

Olowokandi is not a terrible settlement coming off a title run.



:cooldevil

spurster
06-19-2003, 12:14 PM
It is amusing to see revisionist history from the BAMA group. BAMA complained and complained that the Spurs refused to make any big moves that would result in a championship now. Now that the Spurs won, proving that BAMA was wrong, we see a lot of whitewashing. How hard is it to admit you were wrong, and then go on to bigger and better things?

Getting to the topic, I agree NO LIMIT 2003 looked a lot better 2 years ago before a lot of potential FAs signed extensions. I agree that the FA market is chancy. But I don't think that spending the cap space is a major gamble because of where the Spurs are now. Here are some considerations that I haven't gotten as much attention.

One thing the Spurs have for sure is a young talented backcourt: Parker, Manu, and SJax. You can add Claxton to that list if the Spurs want to keep him. If you're thinking about the long-term, the first question is whether any of these players will develop into a star. I am confident that Parker or Manu is headed to stardom (maybe both). If so, then the Spurs will need to pay major bucks to keep him. Will the Spurs want to do this in addition to two long-term MAX contracts? While the Spurs are not stingy, I don't think they want to be deep in luxury tax territory. The Spurs will seriously hesitate on Kidd if they foresee spending big bucks on Parker and Manu. That would be a lot of money spent on guards.

Duncan and Rose are sure to be fixtures in the bigman rotation for years to come. Two more bigman are the holes everybody sees. It sounds like Willis wants to stay, so that would shore up a backup slot. Jermaine or Brand would be a major addition, but they will be hard to get and they will cost money, though it's not like B. Miller, P. J. Brown, Rasho, or Kandi will be cheap.

Bowen's position is a hole in the near future. He is 32 and his game is predicated on quick defense. If he loses a step, he will be a liability on the floor. The question is what year this will happen, and it could very possibly be next year. I don't hear Odom mentioned much, but it may be that he will blossum in the Spurs system (might be true of Kandi, too).

A final point is that the two-star formula is not the most desirable attribute you want. First, you want the players to play as a team. Team play will beat uninspired stars (recall US Team in the World Championships). I don't really like the backup of making trades if signing up a star doesn't work out, which will be disruptive. The Spurs already play well as a team. The Spurs have been brilliant in their small moves leading to a championship. Even getting Steve Smith has worked out somehow. The Spurs are not good at signing big name players. Maybe it is better to stay with what you are good at.

Well, I have more questions than answers. If Jermaine or Kidd really want to come to the Spurs and the Spurs system, I think the Spurs should sign him. If they are not sure, then how hard do the Spurs want to try?

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 12:41 PM
Indeed spurster. Excellent post. Such a display of 20/20 hindsight has never graced a forum before...

scott
06-19-2003, 12:49 PM
Brilliant, spurster.

The moral of the story is that not ending up with another superstar this summer does not equate to failure. While not optimal, the signing of secondary players can still very well lead to another championship.

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 01:34 PM
Nice job, spurster.

Some counterpoints:

• What has BAMA been wrong about? The philosophy was that waiting to sign a superstar in summer 2003 instead of making a major move to win before then was flawed logic. I don't see a superstar signed yet, pal. A funny thing did happen along the way, though. The Spurs won a title!

• HOYA was happy to tread water until summer 2003. None of you people expected a title before then either!

• Stephen Jackson is Bruce Bowen's SF replacement.

• Michael Olowokandi will be a suitable replacement for Robinson for between $7 and $10 million if all esle fails.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 01:41 PM
BAMA (you especially) said no Spurs championship during the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons. BAMA said Spurs were not doing what was necessary to compete for a championship.

Guess not, motherfucker.

Don't even try to spin your way out of this one.

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 01:48 PM
What are you ranting about now?

BAMA b1tched because the Spurs were not looking for ways to put the team over the top, because they wanted to clear cap space for summer 2003.

The title this year came as much as a surprise to BAMA as it did HOYA, sucka.

You certainly weren't on board with doing nothing until summer 2003, either, you stupid sunuvabiyatch! :lol



:cooldevil

adidas11
06-19-2003, 01:54 PM
Come on now Marcus, no one from HOYA could have predicted a championship for the Spurs this season. Quit acting like this was something that you expected all along. I'm as surprised and impressed as everyone else.

Admiral
06-19-2003, 02:39 PM
HOYA was happy being mediocre for two years if that's what it took to have a shot at assembling a dream team this summer.

BAMA did not see the point in sacrificing good trades simply because it would interfere with the cap space in 2003 plan. We saw a team with potential, and did not want to see that potential wasted because some people wanted to play Las Vegas in San Antonio - which is essentially what you're doing when you bank on free agency.

Yes, we won a title anyway. It still does not make the Holting Pattern some genius plan (that remains to be seen). It does, however, say a lot for the coaching staff's ability to develop players and get them to play Spurs basketball. Acting as if the Holting Pattern planned for, or even considered, winning a title this year is an injustice to the wonderful job our coaching staff did.

From the standpoint of what the Holting pattern was designed to do (i.e., bide our time until the summer of 2003, and then sign one or two big free agents), it will be a failure if we do not sign either O'Neal, Brand, or Kidd.

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 04:56 PM
Damn. Admiral's hindsight is 20/10. Now BAMA is the caretaker of the potential that BAMA wanted to run out of SA for whoever could guarantee the Spurs a title (ie The Payton Urban Legend).

And shut up already about "The Holting Pattern." You geniuses went off on that for two years and now you have a nice fat 2nd championship to stick in your revisionist craw.

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 05:07 PM
Great. Here comes Admiral and his 20/10 hindsight.


HOYA was happy being mediocre for two years if that's what it took to have a shot at assembling a dream team this summer.


Right. HOYA preached patience. BAMA whined about the Spurs not making a bunch of short term minded deals that made no sense for a team that was 2 years away from life without David Robinson. And you claim we are the ones who wanted to "gamble"???? Get a clue, Sherlock.



BAMA did not see the point in sacrificing good trades simply because it would interfere with the cap space in 2003 plan. We saw a team with potential, and did not want to see that potential wasted because some people wanted to play Las Vegas in San Antonio - which is essentially what you're doing when you bank on free agency.


You've posted this nonsense time and time again. Just like with Ghost Writer, repetition on your part does not breed correctness. It is not gambling to recognize that you need to give yourself flexibility to adjust the team after David Robinson leaves, it is common fucking sense.

The Holting Pattern is a mindless phrase that means nothing except to a couple of simpletons...one who complains about "ballas" and subtle racist comments about the Spurs not having enough African-American coaches who can relate to young African-American players and the other an individual so fixated on seeing his favorite player go out as a champion that he wanted to see this franchise make a lot of nearsighted short term moves that would have hindered this franchise over the next decade.

Don't act like you have some sort of wise vision while the rest of us advocated a reckless POV. The reverse is true and you can take your arrogant 20/10 hindsight and choke on it.

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 05:11 PM
:rollin

Mr. NO LIMIT himself pawning himself off as a practioner of patience and a HOYA supporter.

Sell "crazy" someplace else, Marcus... no one's buying.

:cooldevil

scott
06-19-2003, 05:32 PM
Indeed. This team should avoid short-sighted moves. They don't win championships. See Portland and Dallas.

So tell me again why we are looking to replace a 21 year old point guard with a 30 year old one when the 21 year old will most likely be better than the 30 year old in 2 years?

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 05:37 PM
To put it succinctly, scott, because Tony Parker will not be on Kidd's level in two years and because we could upgrade our current starting PG with the best one in the game and if done via a sign-and-trade, sign a reasonable Robinson replacement.

:cooldevil

scott
06-19-2003, 05:47 PM
because Tony Parker will not be on Kidd's level in two years

I will hold you to that.

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 05:52 PM
Go ahead.

You're comparing the best PG in the game right now to a kid you couldn't shake the almighty defense of Kerry Kittles.

:cooldevil

scott
06-19-2003, 05:58 PM
And yet he managed to put up 21ppg on the All-NBA Defensive Teamer who you purport to replace him with.

And yet our team defensive performance is going to somehow improve or remain constant when the man who got burned by Tony Parker (who couldn't get past Kerry Kittles, as you put it) comes in.

Ghost Writer
06-19-2003, 06:02 PM
And yet you still don't understand that Kidd is the superstar of his team while Parker has the luxury of freewheeling behind Tim "MVP" Duncan.

Duncan is there to command the defensive focus of the other team and erase any mistakes Parker may make while guarding opponents.

Swap Parker for Kidd and the Nets get bounced in the first round.


Now use that brain of yours and imagine what a superstar PG could do playing off of Duncan.

Next.

:cooldevil

ChumpDumper
06-19-2003, 06:11 PM
because Tony Parker will not be on Kidd's level in two years

I hope he's not--Kidd can't shoot or defend quick guards.
:p

spurster
06-19-2003, 07:12 PM
What has BAMA been wrong about? The philosophy was that waiting to sign a superstar in summer 2003 instead of making a major move to win before then was flawed logic. I don't see a superstar signed yet, pal. A funny thing did happen along the way, though. The Spurs won a title!
What were you saying about flawed logic? Signing superstars is more important than winning titles? Physician, heal thyself!

HOYA was happy to tread water until summer 2003. None of you people expected a title before then either!
50+ wins/season and Division titles is a little better than treading water. It is true that nobody was expecting a title. On the other hand, HOYA was willing to trust the Spurs front office, while BAMA complained. Guess what? HOYA was right to trust, and BAMA was wrong to complain.

Stephen Jackson is Bruce Bowen's SF replacement.
If so, that still leaves a hole in the rotation to be filled.

Michael Olowokandi will be a suitable replacement for Robinson for between $7 and $10 million if all esle fails.
Not at that price. If that is what happens, it will be a big disappointment.

adidas11
06-19-2003, 07:45 PM
Scott, you're failing to see the point.

Kidd >> Parker.

Always.

Put Parker on the Nets, and they might not even make the playoffs, IN THE EAST.

This is once again homers overrating Tony Parker, thinking he is more than what his talent truly merits. Tony has the benefit of a dominate big man to draw double teams, so that all he has to do is hit jump shots, and penetrate with little pressure on him. Put him on a team where he is the focus of everything, and then you'll see how "talented" he is.

Admiral
06-19-2003, 08:20 PM
I agree with you on the Kidd issue, scott. Parker is 21, and Kidd is 30. Parker is already good enough, and his improvement after just two years in the league bodes well for the rest of his career. Even Kidd himself said that Tony is probably better than he was at 21.

And Ghost, why are you now on the Kidd bandwagon? Just a few months ago you were saying that we should not go after Kidd, because Parker was adequate and only going to get better (which is correct). Now, you're talking as if you've had your seat reserved on the Kidd bandwagon all along.

What gives?

Admiral
06-19-2003, 08:47 PM
Right. HOYA preached patience. BAMA whined about the Spurs not making a bunch of short term minded deals that made no sense for a team that was 2 years away from life without David Robinson. And you claim we are the ones who wanted to "gamble"???? Get a clue, Sherlock. -Marcus Bryant

Who in BAMA was pushing for short term deals that made no sense? BAMA was against the philosophy of basically tanking it for two years in order to bide our time until 2003. BAMA was against refusing to pull the trigger on trades that helped us win. If I remember correctly, you are the one who always posted trade proposal threads out of boredom - sometimes as many as 8 or 10 a day.



You've posted this nonsense time and time again. Just like with Ghost Writer, repetition on your part does not breed correctness. It is not gambling to recognize that you need to give yourself flexibility to adjust the team after David Robinson leaves, it is common fucking sense. - Marcus Bryant

The laws of supply and demand in your economics classes can explain our repetition, Marcus. Your failure to understand these basic concepts demands us to continue to supply it. :lol

Based on your revisionist history with respect to what BAMA wanted, the repetition has obviously not helped much. Please get the facts straight.



The Holting Pattern is a mindless phrase that means nothing except to a couple of simpletons...one who complains about "ballas" and subtle racist comments about the Spurs not having enough African-American coaches who can relate to young African-American players and the other an individual so fixated on seeing his favorite player go out as a champion that he wanted to see this franchise make a lot of nearsighted short term moves that would have hindered this franchise over the next decade. -Marcus Bryant

You are right. I did want to see David win a second title. I also wanted to see Tim Duncan win a second title. Both David and Tim have given enough to the team and the city to deserve the best. The Holting Pattern, as it was originally presented two years ago, didn't care about maximizing the talent we had (at least the way I understood it). Many of its supporters just wanted to assemble a great fantasy league team in 2003. I thought our current players, and especially David and Tim, deserved better. Fortunately, we won the title this year anyway. From that standpoint, I have no problem with the Holting Pattern. It's the philosophy that I disagree with.


Don't act like you have some sort of wise vision while the rest of us advocated a reckless POV. The reverse is true and you can take your arrogant 20/10 hindsight and choke on it. -Marcus Bryant

Stating the way I feel and feeling confident about it is called an opinion. Obviously, not everyone else will agree with me. I am comfortable with that. However, if you can't deal with opposing views, then I suggest you check out the Spurs board on WOAI. :wink

scott
06-19-2003, 09:06 PM
Scott, you're failing to see the point.

Kidd >> Parker.

Always.

Put Parker on the Nets, and they might not even make the playoffs, IN THE EAST.

This is once again homers overrating Tony Parker, thinking he is more than what his talent truly merits. Tony has the benefit of a dominate big man to draw double teams, so that all he has to do is hit jump shots, and penetrate with little pressure on him. Put him on a team where he is the focus of everything, and then you'll see how "talented" he is.



How good Tony Parker would be without Tim Duncan is irrelevant because he isn't on a team without Tim Duncan.

The fact is that he is a 15.5 ppg scorer in his second year in the league as a 20 year old.

In Kobe Bryant's second season (as a 19 year old) he put up 15.4 ppg. I'm pretty sure that Laker boards weren't innudated with "Let's replace Kobe because he has the luxury of playing with Shaq" threads.

Jason Kidd brings what to this team? Rebounds from the perimeter? Better entry passes? It certainly won't be better shooting or defense.

The fact is that he is already on the decline. Last season he posted the lowest assist average in his career since his rookie year. His scoring was up, but not surprisingly so were his shots per game (15.5 shots a game, second highest total in his career). It takes that many shots when you only shoot 41% though.

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 10:27 PM
Who in BAMA was pushing for short term deals that made no sense? BAMA was against the philosophy of basically tanking it for two years in order to bide our time until 2003. BAMA was against refusing to pull the trigger on trades that helped us win. If I remember correctly, you are the one who always posted trade proposal threads out of boredom - sometimes as many as 8 or 10 a day.


I would say that wanting to see the Spurs deal away their youth and cap flexibility for an older guard (ie The Payton Urban Legend) is fairly nearsighted. But let me guess, you didn't want that but you wanted the Spurs to do everything that they could to win it in those two years regardless of the long term implications. Right. You can't have it both ways.

The main problem is your assumption that Duncan would be happy in a situation in which the Spurs are capped out with limited young talent with David Robinson retiring. Should the Spurs be unable to improve themselves with a retiring DRob you can be rest assured that Duncan would be tempted to look elsewhere. Sorry for bringing this up, I'd hate to increase the complexity of this argument for your sake. But this is what those of us who are Spurs fans and not simply DRob fans like you understood...there is life after David Robinson. Tim Duncan has eight to ten years left in this game after DRob. You don't **** that up just to gamble for the last two years of DRob's career. It doesn't make sense from a basketball perspective and it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. You have to do what you can do to keep The Franchise happy long term. That isn't accomplished by saddling the team with fat contracts for marginal talents and trading away your young talent. And don't tell me the Spurs didn't know what they had in Parker.

BAMA assured us that the Spurs were not doing what was necessary to win a title in 2001-03. All that HOYA said was that they may or may not win. But BAMA was certain that the Spurs would not win.

Now they spin.

T Park Num 9
06-19-2003, 10:48 PM
why replace a learning 21 year old who averages 21 points a game.

WIth a 30 year old point guard who shoots like Lloyd Daniels????

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 10:49 PM
The other thing you con artists seem to forget is that the plan for life without DRob had been in place since 1996. The Spurs had the summer in which DRob's contract expired targeted as early as five years before it did as the time when the Spurs would be able to bring in a significant free agent. Yes, even before Duncan.

Anyways, the Spurs desire to maximize their cap flexibility this summer has cost the Spurs Derek Anderson, Lamond Murray (he just spent a season...watching the action), and Chris Mihm. It's rather foolish to complain about this and act like you have a point but that won't stop GW and GW Jr.

Marcus Bryant
06-19-2003, 11:06 PM
Mr. NO LIMIT himself...

What about it? That was predicated on the Spurs preparing for life without DRob. You guys act like Tim Duncan would simply accept being on a team with no cap flexibility and undesirable contracts without reviewing his options. Even before the Spurs won this title this season it was taken as a given that he was staying. Think about why that was the case. Unlike you guys he was happy with what the front office did. Don't pretend that you were. You and everyone else here knows that you didn't want this. You didn't want the Spurs to have a young team just learning the game as the Spurs rebuilt and prepared for this offseason. You wanted them to add all the experienced talent they could without any regard for what that meant capwise. Just so they could maximize their chances of winning during the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons with DRob. All I ever said was that if Webber wanted to be a Spur you cannot turn that down. Why? Because the focus was not on DRob it was on Tim Duncan and the Spurs after DRob (who only had two years left in his career). You don't make long term moves to build around a guy who is gone in 2 years. With Webber there is no DRob. But at least Webber would ensure that Duncan has a real go-to teammate for the next 7 seasons (at that time). I find it curious that GhostWhiner Jr is parroting GhostWhiner because GhostWhiner's sole basis for his criticism of Peter Holt is that Peter Holt didn't tell DRob to go to NY and F himself back in 2001. I don't believe that GW Jr wanted to see that at all. So you guys need to get your story straight...did you want to see DRob gone or not?

Anyways, I suppose that the Spurs front office doesn't know what it's doing and you do. You guys are obviously letting your talents go to waste.

Guru of Nothing
06-19-2003, 11:13 PM
why replace a learning 21 year old who averages 21 points a game.

WIth a 30 year old point guard who shoots like Lloyd Daniels????



T-Park, you are a mole (cute and lovable in an Internet sort of way), but .....

WHACK!

Your numbers are wrong and your take is .... stunning.

SequSpur
06-19-2003, 11:18 PM
Kidd is coming to SA, now its just a matter of who is staying with him.. Parker or Claxton? I wouldn't be surprised if Karl Malone isn't here as well...

Claxton is probably gone unless Kidd doesn't come, but the more and more Kidd talks to the media, he is coming.

Jimcs50
06-20-2003, 10:13 AM
Kidd is not coming. Will you please stop thinking this idiotic thought?

CosmicCowboyXXX
06-20-2003, 10:27 AM
Despite wanting Jermaine O'Neal way more than Kidd I am really starting to believe Kidd is coming...

Kidd is really talking making a move to a team where he can win championships...and the Spurs are the only option available this summer that qualify in that area...he did more interviews yesterday...sounds like he is trying to get the Jerseyites used to the idea...

the other reason is that although Don Harris is not a total insider he probably has more inside access than anyone else in San Antonio...He is absolutely adament that the Spurs have told him that Jason Kidd is, was, and always has been the Spurs first option in this offseason...this might be CIA Pop in action but the guy is just so damn sure of himself....:(

scott
06-20-2003, 10:49 AM
I hope we sign Jermaine just so I can see Harris cry when his love affair with Jason Kidd is not realized.

Every day on the radio there is at least a segment or two on Harris' mancrush on Jason Kidd.

He even drops the line that "Tony Parker will stay here. He can't go anywhere. He'll be a great backup."

That'll be great for team chemistry.

CosmicCowboyXXX
06-20-2003, 11:06 AM
I keep hearing the rationalization that we can play Kidd and Parker together in the backcourt...yeah right...Kidd may be the ultimate ball distributor but Tony Parker is damn sure not the ultimate shooting guard...that tandem might work with some teams (like when Dallas goes small) but would be way undersized for most team matchups...

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 11:06 AM
When has Pop/RC/Schuler told anyone what they are going to do?

This includes Harris and it certainly includes someone else...from the Jason Blair School of Journalism no doubt.


Derrick Dial will be unleashed. ©2000 Modesto, Inc.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 11:11 AM
How are the Spurs undersized? Kidd guards opposing 2s, Parker draws the other team's point.

Why do the Spurs have to have a prototypical NBA lineup?

How exactly does TP's game change from where it is now? It's not like he was dropping a lot of dimes, people. His impact has been primarily through his scoring. You guys act like he is this primo playmaker. He isn't. But he has great scoring ability. And in the open court he and Kidd would be lethal.

CosmicCowboyXXX
06-20-2003, 11:12 AM
Matt, you don't get to hear this guy on the radio in Austin...Harris keeps saying over and over that the Spurs have told him Kidd is the #1 option and he has never waivered from this position...

that being said, you are right...Pop and RC have never leaked anything like this before...but remember...If they get Kidd they are talking about replacing a VERY popular player...maybe they ARE trying to get us used to the idea...

guess we will know soon...

CosmicCowboyXXX
06-20-2003, 11:18 AM
How are the Spurs undersized? Kidd guards opposing 2s, Parker draws the other team's point.

easy...Parker is shorter than 2/3 of the points in the league and kidd is shorter than at least 3/4 of the shooting guards in the league...jumpshooting 2 guards would kick our ass...

scott
06-20-2003, 11:20 AM
What dimes are Jason Kidd going to drop by feeding the ball to Tim Duncan in the post?

Are we going to change our offensive scheme?

Oh how exciting it will be to watch us go away from the strength of the best player in the world.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 11:32 AM
Kidd's certainly big enough to defend the 2. TP is big enough to defend the 1.

As for Kidd and Duncan in the halfcourt Kidd's value will be in getting the other guys involved moreso than just waiting for the pitchout from TD. Pop works with the talent he has. Thinking that he would relegate Kidd to simply pitching the ball into TD is a bit unrealistic.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 11:36 AM
Tim Duncan will flourish in ANY offensive scheme we run. You can take that to the bank shot. (rimshot)

Thinking parker will be on Kidd's level in 2 years is absolutely WRONG. For one, the type of games they play are not the same. They may play the same position, but Jason Kidd is a pure creator, Parker being a scorer. A Parker comparison to Allen Iverson is much more realistic than one to Jason Kidd. While I do not believe that a Kidd acquisition will do very much to raise the level of Tony's game, I don't agree that it will stunt it. Parker will still be one of our better scoring options behind TD, therefore would still get lots of touches in a Kidd/Parker backcourt.

What this would do would be to increase the effectiveness of players such as Manu and Jax, who would thrive an an offense at higher speeds and more motion. I can already picture the backdoor lobs from Kidd to Manu and I get giddy about it.

I honestly do prefer the thought of a O'neal coming here, or even moreso Brand. But this is just looking less and less likely. Brand is restricted, and Oneal just doesnt' seem like he wants to leave Indiana. Perhaps I'm wrong, but no one here has any better information than anyone else, so we're all just basicaly guessing based on hearsay.

I do know one thing, I see acquiring Kidd as a fur superior option to bringing in Kandi and Magette. I don't see a need for Magette, we have a very capable wing rotation as it is.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 11:40 AM
BTW, size on the perimeter is overrated as far as defense goes. If the majority of teams out there want to settle for pull up jumpers based on the fact that their 2 guard has 3 inches on our 2 guard, let them.

They want to post us up? Didn't you see the how well the spurs defened guards that posted up on our guards by letting tim slide over and zone up?

This team will be tops in defense again not because athletcism or size, but because every player on it understands the philosophy and trusts the rotations.

give the coaching props for that.

scott
06-20-2003, 11:40 AM
Thinking parker will be on Kidd's level in 2 years is absolutely WRONG.

Why?

Because Jason Kidd's level of play will never decline? Because Tony Parker has peaked?

Jason Kidd isn't even the best PG in the league anymore. Stephon Marbury is. And it's really not even something that is in question anymore.

Tony Parker in his prime may never be as good as Jason Kidd was in his prime- but we aren't in the hunt for a Jason Kidd in his prime. We are in the hunt for an already peaked out 30 year old.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 11:53 AM
I guess I should have specified more.

What I meant was that tony parker in 2 years will not be on Jason Kidds current level. I'm not to sure he will be at the same level as Jason Kidd in 2 years either, but that remains to be seen how much consistency Tony can develop.

Saying Starbury is the leagues best PG is debateble now, but I still go with Kidd because of how much Kidd makes players around him better. Marbury can become unstopable, but Kidd will bring out the best in players like a RJ or Kittles.

I honestly think RJ is FAR from all star talent, and the leauge will find as much out if Kidd bolts from NJ.

scott
06-20-2003, 11:56 AM
Thinking parker will be on Kidd's level in 2 years is absolutely WRONG.

That's the flawed thinking that people need to get away from. Tony Parker doesn't have to amount to what Jason Kidd was 3 years ago, or is now.

You can only compare Tony to the next best alternative. Unless we cryogenically freeze Jason Kidd for a few years, we aren't going to get him at his current level in two years.

In two years, Tony Parker and Jason Kidd will be at the same level. Take that to your bank shot Manny! :)

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 11:58 AM
I wouldn't mind waiting for Kidd's game to decline as a Spur.

scott
06-20-2003, 12:00 PM
Just as I'm sure you wouldn't have had a problem with Chris Webber being injured as a Spur.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 12:00 PM
Hey, i'm not advocating getting rid of a TP. I'm advocating getting Kidd this summer if we have no better option.

KANDI IS NOT A BETTER OPTION

I don't think it will hinder us in any way, and I do think it will make us a better team. TP may = JK in 2 years, that remains to be seen, but I do think one thing is for sure.

JK + TP + TD = Steve Kerr's second hand of bling bling.

Yes, we'd have to change offensive styles, but ****, thats not a bad thing. We do what we do now out of nessecity, not out of joy.

scott
06-20-2003, 12:03 PM
We are in agreement that Kandi is not a better option. I have never suggested he is.

JK + TP + TD = loss to the Lakers, IMO. JK + TP + TD + PJBrown might be a different story. O'Neal and Brand are obviously the best options, however. It would be foolish for the Spurs to make Kidd their top option when O'Neal and Brand are available.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 12:05 PM
amen.

I wonder how the hell we'd get PJ for that low, unless we promise him some Ancira or Chiropractor endoresment contracts.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:06 PM
Just as I'm sure you wouldn't have had a problem with Chris Webber being injured as a Spur.


Webber's injury with Sacto has no bearing on the likelihood that he would have suffered an injury as a Spur.

TP
MG
SJ
CW
TD

That would have been horrible.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 12:10 PM
I don't give a shit about CW.

I'm glad we didn't get him because I wanted david back.

Somethings are more important to me in sports, having david always wear silver and black was one of them.

Looks like it payed off too didn't it?

Jimcs50
06-20-2003, 12:12 PM
Kid, when he was 21 was a below average pointguard. TP will be better than Kidd when he is 24. No stinkin Kidd!!!

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:13 PM
It's always been Kidd and a big. PJ Brown and Juwan Howard would be the likely targets. Nothing spectacular but you don't need spectacular when you just added Kidd to your team.

The same holds true for Payton.

The case for Olowokandi :vomit is that he is what the Spurs would need to defend SO'Neal. Beyond that one could argue that Olowokandi could thrive playing alongside a dominant player like TD on both ends of the court. The guy has 'Free Agent Bust' written all over him. 43% career FG shooting as a 5? Questionable work ethic. Injured. Man he is looking like an Adonal Foyle-esque big man with a fat contract and a limp game just waiting to happen.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:15 PM
I also enjoy how some of those who are so critical of Malik Rose's contract as ready to see the Spurs blow $60 mil on :vomit Olowokandi.

scott
06-20-2003, 12:19 PM
I'd much rather see Malik Rose starting at the 5 than Kandi.

What are some role player Big Men available this offseason?

If we are starting Malik at the 5, we will need someone to be the first big off the bench- or is that Willis? Even so, we'd need another because Willis couldn't handle the load on his own.

scott
06-20-2003, 12:21 PM
Peja Drobnjak?

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:22 PM
Yes.

Two more:

Tyrone Hill
Elden Campbell

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:26 PM
Damn, Elden (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/elden_campbell/index.html?nav=page) had a solid 2001-02 season and then it was all downhill from there.

Pop has a good relationship with Hill (Tyrone not Bob). He could work. Might even have a little $$$ over to add someone else.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 12:28 PM
Hmmm, not to enamored with Hill, but he is a solid defender.

God, I'd be in heaven with Kidd Brown offseason.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:29 PM
Hmmm...Hill wasn't looking too good either in 2002-03. Hill or Campbell might make sense should the Spurs (unfortunately) lose Willis.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 12:31 PM
Hill has a decent J and basically is a Pop-kind-of-player = smart player, is a vet (or acts like a vet like TP), won't complain, wants to win, etc...

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 12:31 PM
Isn't there also a chance of a sign and trade for claxton? Perhaps thats where we bring in a big

Ghost Writer
06-23-2003, 12:10 PM
Marcus Bryant, if the Spurs get your boy Kidd, they won't also be able to afford Elden Campbell or PJ Brown unless they also trade Tony Parker.

Don't act like you were copmfortable with the front office doing nothing during the Holt-ing Pattern. Winning the title was unexpected by all fans with a realistic outlook on this season.

If we hadn't won the title, there would be extreme urgency to find a second star for Duncan, even if that player was not a true Robinson replacement like Kidd.

Fortunately, winning the title proved that it could be done with Parker at the point and validated the theory that Robinson should be replaced with another star big man.




P.S.

Admiral, I don't want Kidd, but I'm not stupid enough to think Tony Parker is on his level. If we can't get a big man replacement for Robinson, then maybe we should look at a sign-and-trade for Kidd using Parker. But we'd still have to find a starting quality big who could block shots, possibly in the Keon Clark mode.

:cooldevil