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coz
06-20-2003, 01:17 PM
OK, now that I have officially turned my attention to baseball(AKA NBA/NFL free agents), I would like to know if the following scenario is: 1. Possible, 2. Likely, 3. Would Work. Any help is as always, appreciated.

First, bring in Elton Brand in sign and trade for Malik Rose/Speedy Claxton. (Brand = $11 Million, Rose = - 4.5Million)

Second, Sign Glove to the MLE (Glove = $4.5)

So, assuming my CBA is correct (quite a stretch) Payton would get our exception, and Brand would count $11 mil into our $15, and rose would put $4.5 mil back. By my addition, it leaves 8.5 million to get a few more bodies. So:

Sign G. Arenas to 5 year, 8.5 million per contract.

Draft K. Perkins and some Euro to cook overseas for a bit.

Try to bring in Scola, if not fill with vet minimum.

Starters:
Parker
Glove
Bowen
Brand
Duncan

Reserve:
Arenas
Manu
Buckets
Scola
Willis
Perkins
Kerr
Roster filler (project)

Could this happen? Would any lineup in the league even come close to this? This team's bench is better than several NBA starting 5's. Anyway, I choose this offseason to dream big, and be let down rather than dream little, and be suprised at the outcome.

timvp
06-20-2003, 01:23 PM
The Spurs don't have an MLE so Payton is out.

The sign-and-trade is possible but doubtful cuz Sterling (vinegar) and long-term contracts (water).

Arenas would be cool but you'd have to start him at the 2 for him even think about coming.

But I good job on the advanced thinking. With the cap space that is at hand, the scenarios are endless.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 01:23 PM
GP will command at least $9 mil per.

Sterling would never take a contract with 6 years left on it. Also, I doubt Claxton would want to become a Clipper willingly.

Also, why force so many changes on a title team? GP I can understand.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 01:27 PM
Here's the way I look at it:

If you can add one of the following you do it and change your lineup accordingly: Payton/Brand/Kidd/JO'Neal.

Outside of those 4 you don't make drastic changes to your lineup.

This team just won the title. Given that you are losing a significant member and that this will be (likely) the last time you can make a significant acquisition during your star player's prime, you can be somewhat flexible with respect to changes. But that doesn't mean that you should shuffle the entire team and start running off players like Malik Rose and Tony Parker who are part of your core for just whoever.

coz
06-20-2003, 01:29 PM
agree with the changes part, I guess the "grass is always greener" theory. I would definetly like to see Brand before all others this offseason though, and I'm trying to figure out a good way to do it. I also wnat the Spurs to draft Kendrick Perkins, and get a quality perimeter player like Payton/Arenas. If we leave Payton out of the equation, could this work:

S&T Brand - Rose/Claxton
(Claxton may not want to go, but money in the pockets is good motivation)

Sign Arenas @ aprox 7-8 million

Starters:
Parker
Arenas
Bowen
Brand
Tim

Reserve
Kerr (With Arenas getting duty at the point, Manu and Jack subbing in for off guard and SF)
Buckets
Manu
Scola
Willis
Perkins
...........Roster fill

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 01:30 PM
I would think about involving a 3rd team in your hypothetical to land Brand from the Clippers.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 01:31 PM
A) Sterling has to sign somone to fill league minimum salary.
B) Hes expected to try to sign Lamar Odom since thats his favorite player and Elton Brand (best player). Both will probably wind up just taking the 1 year tender offers.
C) They would certainly be willing to take easily movable contracts in return. Malik might qualify as moveable since hes a big man and hes certainly raised his stock with his level of play of late.


Raiding the Clippers should be option 2 after Jermaine Oneal.

You guys seriously need to get over your man crush on Gary Payton. The guys a great player but has no place on our team.

timvp
06-20-2003, 01:34 PM
I wouldn't dump Rose for Arenas.

1) Rose will continue to be an important bench player. He brings the energy the team often lacks.

2) I wouldn't want to take away almost all of the minutes from Manu and Jack.

coz
06-20-2003, 01:36 PM
"You guys seriously need to get over your man crush on Gary Payton. The guys a great player but has no place on our team"

LMAO......

you're saying you wouldn't find a spot for him for the right price? I agree, this guy is not the premier free agent that we all covet, but he can still put the ball in the hoop.

IMO - I would like to see a perimeter player come to town with Brand. And IMO:

Arenas > Payton > Maggette

coz
06-20-2003, 01:41 PM
"I wouldn't dump Rose for Arenas."

I'm not a Rose hater, but seriously, Rose for Arenas? I do this deal every day and twice on Sunday.

"1) Rose will continue to be an important bench player. He brings the energy the team often lacks."

My hypothetical involves bringing in Elton Brand, this leaves Rose's minutes on the endangered list.

"2) I wouldn't want to take away almost all of the minutes from Manu and Jack."

My thinking is that Arenas also plays some backup point, with Manu and Jack coming in for Bowen and Parker. Then the next sub will be Parker for Arenas. The guard rotation should keep everyone happy. I'm also not sure that in my scenario, keeping Jack is even possible. If not, a casualty of the Dynasty in the making.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 01:42 PM
Payton would work well with this team. He's the consumate team player on the court and he wants to win. In addition he would give the Spurs what they were lacking at times in the playoffs: a consistent backcourt scoring threat and a hard nosed leader on the court when TD was off the court. GP wouldn't let his team lose a 25 point lead or whatever. He can play the 2, slide over to the 1 when TP leaves the game and you still have plenty of minutes for Manu. SJax goes to his natural position at the 3.

scott
06-20-2003, 01:42 PM
I don't understand the desire for Payton or Arenas in this scenario.

After adding Brand, there is no more room for a Payton or Arenas in the game plan.

You are already looking at a starting line up that will put, on average, about 80 points on its own.

Duncan: 23
Brand: 20
Parker: 14 (goes down because of Brand's presence)
Jackson: 13 (goes up with a year of exp)
Manu: 10

Add in 15-20 bench points a game (Rose 8, Claxton 6, Bowen 5) and you've got one of the best scoring line ups the Spurs have had in recent years, along with not giving anything up on the defensive end.

If S&T (Rose and Claxton) is the only way to get Brand, we are obviously in a position where we need more bench players- but I don't think a Payton or Arenas are those players.

Don't think the S&T is the way to get Brand though... if we have a chance, it will be with a Max offer.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 01:43 PM
Arenas is not coming to this team. He worked long and hard to prove hes an NBA point guard. He is going to go to a team where he can run the show, thats Denver or Miami.

CosmicCowboyXXX
06-20-2003, 01:43 PM
I agree that Payton is not a good fit on the Spurs. The guy is a great defender and has the ability to take over a game but his history of locker room issues is legendary...I just don't see Pop taking a chance on him at the price he is gonna command...

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 01:43 PM
Also, GP would cost less than the max so you would have more $$$ to use to add a decent starting big and address other areas of concern such as the deep bench spots (9-12)

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 01:47 PM
Basically guys, I would say that the Spurs should try to keep the turnover in their 8 man rotation to a minimum. Only a great player acquisition should be allowed to change it.

timvp
06-20-2003, 01:48 PM
I agree.

Unless you are adding a Kidd/O'Neal/Brand player, there is no need to change things up.

coz
06-20-2003, 01:51 PM
Good points on Arenas. I don't think that he is at the point in his career where winning really matters, above Dollars and prestige that is. In my (revised)scenario, Payton and Arenas are interchangeable. If Arenas says no, Gary Payton, come on down.... If Payton says no, Corey Maggette, come on down........so on and so forth.

scott
06-20-2003, 01:55 PM
IMO, there is only room for one more Superstar.

I would like Payton, but not along with Brand.

As for Maggette, I liked him at first, but the more I think of it- he is only marginally better than Jax and doesn't have Jax's killer instinct or newly gained playoff experience. I'd prefer Jack, especially considering that Jack will be cheaper.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 02:01 PM
Maggette is a prime example. On paper he looks great but is he worth the $$$ and the disruption in your rotation? The Spurs do have a battle tested lineup now. Maggette is not worth disrupting it IMO.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 02:02 PM
"The only player I've ever met with a greater work ethic was Michael Jordan"

Tim Grover on Corey Maggette

coz
06-20-2003, 02:22 PM
mix the work ethic with that athletic ability, and you know the reason people are talking about him. I was impressed with Maggette this year. I'd take him over Buckets in a New York minute.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 02:23 PM
Maggette and those Clipper stats. BFD. Stats on a shit team don't mean anything.

Antoine Carr was once a 20 point a game scorer.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 02:25 PM
no ones talking about stats, we're talking about ability

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 02:27 PM
That too. DA had plenty of ability in Clipperland. Once he got to SA he was caught in the headlights of the playoffs.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 02:28 PM
uhm we all liked da once he got here.

it was once he left that you all turned sour on him

coz
06-20-2003, 02:30 PM
I guess by headlights you mean J.Howard? DA was big for us all year, and would have been in the playoffs if not for the cheap shot. How soon we forget........

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 02:30 PM
I was never pissed at DA. I'm just pointing out that he struggled in those playoffs before the Howard clothesline.

T Park Num 9
06-20-2003, 02:31 PM
Magette over Jack???


Magette couldnt hit a clutch shot if his life DEPENDED on it.

He coy use your head, stats mean jack SHIT.


Duncan also who is VERY VERY tight with Jack, prob wouldnt like loosing him and David in one offseason.

Keep the big man happy.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 02:34 PM
duncan was also tight with antonio

go back to the little kids table tpark the adults are talkin

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 02:39 PM
lmao.

DA's biggest problem was streaky shooting, well other than bad PR.

I'd rather have jax. For one thing, I love the loyalty aspect our franchise projects, and I think Jax has earned a spot on this team and the chance to prove he can contribute.

Thats what it boils down to for me. I don't see enough of an upside in magette to just throw jax away after what he did for this team this year.

Yes, it is a business, but I'd like to think that there are other things in the equation as well.

IcemanCometh
06-20-2003, 02:42 PM
no one says we gotta get rid of jackson to get maggette

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 02:48 PM
WTF would you want Manu, Jax AND Magette?

Maybe we could bring back antonio daniels too, shit, surround Duncan with nothing but 2 guards!!!

Its overkill, money can be better spent.

coz
06-20-2003, 02:51 PM
T-Park: I assume by coy you mean coz, so here is my opinion on the Jack vs Maggette thing:

Jack has been a project for a while, he is still very turnover prone, and still has a suspect outside shot. He is not a great finisher. Let's look at the facts. Jaren Jackson lit it up from the outside when he was on the Spurs. Steve Kerr looked like a hero this playoffs. Teams give our outside shooters room to operate, and guess what, they make a few shots. The Spurs dominance inside makes these guys look like all stars, and that is not the case.

Take for example the Lakers. Rick Fox, Derick Fisher, would these guys start for any other team in the league? If you put a dominant big man inside, the game is so much easier for the perimeter players.

Now, as far as projects go: Maggette > Jack

Maggette is more athletic, has a better BBall history(as far as NBA grooming), seems to have a great work ethic. Has gotten better every year. Can finish with the best of them. Has a very good outside shot, and a decent midrange game.

Jack is a good player, but his head worries me. He can disappear for an entire half, or an entire game. Everything Jack does well, Maggette can do as well if not better.

Outside shot (3 ball) : Maggette > Jack
- Maggette has no Duncan, and does not get the looks Jack does, yet he shoots at a higher percentage. Maggette (.332) Jack(.320)

Field Goals in general : Maggette > Jack
- again, creating with no significant help, Maggette shoots better than Jack. Maggette(.444), Jack(.427)

Turn Overs : Maggette > Jack
- OK, the numbers aren't with me on this one (Maggette = 2.3 in 31.3 minutes, Jack = 2.2 in 28.2 minutes) but bear with me. Maggette has to create more, and doesn't have the luxury of the set offense through the best player on the planet. This is why I go with Maggette.

Maggette is worth 16.8 PPG while Jack is worth 11.8. I'll take the extra 5 PPG any day. I also believe that in the right system, Maggette can blossom into an elite player, I don't think the same can be said for Jack. He can be a solid NBA pro, but the Maggette upside is just too good.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 02:52 PM
Clutch: SJackson > Maggette

timvp
06-20-2003, 02:53 PM
Having the biggest balls west of the Mississippi doesn't show up in stats.

coz
06-20-2003, 02:56 PM
That is a guess, we haven't seen Maggette in a tight spot. My guess is the kid would perform well. Also, if we are kicking the crap out of every team, we won't need a clutch shot to win it. Jack may have hit some big shots, but he did some stupid shit throughout the game to make that shot necessary.

T Park Num 9
06-20-2003, 02:56 PM
take about 4 points off his 16 a game cause thats going to Duncan and others.


Magette showed me he couldnt hit shots in the lcutch with the clippers.

Against the Spurs, Lakers, ANYBODY.


Jack is ALWAYS money along with Ginobili in clutch time.


Take into account Duncan, Jack >>>> Magettte.


Consider thigns OUTSIDE OF FREAKING STATS PEOPLE.

Stats do NOT tell the WHOLE story.

DO NOT compare players on stats.

Damn watch the games and look at how either or would fit into systems.

Cory Magette is Overatted imo, the only thing he can do better is MAYBE shoot free throws and Jack looked pretty damn good at that against Phoenix and LA.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 02:57 PM
Having the biggest balls west of the Mississippi doesn't show up in stats.

right on

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 03:03 PM
This is a guess, but Corey Maggette has put up some stats playing for a lottery team.

coz
06-20-2003, 03:05 PM
T-Park, how would you prefer we compare them, shoe size? SAT score? haircuts?

I watched plenty of Clipper games this year, and Maggete can flat out play. He is big, strong, fast, and seems intelligent with the ball. Jarren Jackson was clutch for us one year, where the hell did that get us. My point is that Maggette is the superior player, and the only thing you people say is "clutch". That is frickin homer nonsense. I saw just as many games where Buckets disappeared down the stretch.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm good with Buckets for the most part. I just see Maggette as a HUGE upgrade. I would prefer the Spurs, instead of paying Jack, spend money on securing Manu, signing Brand, and bringing over Maggette.

scott
06-20-2003, 03:07 PM
Any advantages Maggette may have from a statistical standpoint are made up for by Jack's clutch shooting, loyalty to this team, and the fact he'll cost about half as much as Maggette.

Value.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 03:09 PM
Hmmm. "Homer nonsense"?

Fucking Jack brought the Spurs back from the dead in that game 6 at Dallas while Maggette and his superior play was in Cancun or wherever. Don't even start with a Jaren Jackson comparison because there is none.

Yes, though you might not believe it, a proven ability to perform in big moments is of value.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 03:11 PM
And before I forget: TOENAIL.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 03:28 PM
Also wtf is the assumption that Maggette in SA replaces SJackson? Ginobili is slated to be the future 2 and SJax the 3.

spursfaninla
06-20-2003, 03:57 PM
Coz, quit trying to fix something that is not broken.

You think Corey has improved but Sjax has not? Why do you think sjax is even in the rotation? It is not because we don't have enough sg/sf on the bench. It is because he has improved defensively and he in turnovers per minute.

sjax at 6'8 can play the sf, while corey at 6'6 weighs the same but lacks the overall size and wingspan.

Clutch shooting is a commodity of its own, and outweighs the points that corey gets from going to the line more.

If we do get a star player (kidd, oneal, malone, brand <<<(pipe dream this year), where do the shots come from? Drob was hardly getting any, and they will certainly not come from parker or manu's shots.

They will probably come from sjax's (and/or bowen, esp. if sjax starts at the 3.)

Maggette is just too risky, it is a costly upgrade that is marginal at best. Why pay alot for a slight upgrade at best when we really need a starting quality big?

I make a run at Odom before maggette anyway...

scott
06-20-2003, 04:07 PM
Why pay alot for a slight upgrade at best when we really need a starting quality big?

The same question can be asked of other potential moves this offseason.

MannyIsGod
06-20-2003, 04:09 PM
because Kidd on the spurs > Maggette on the spurs

scott
06-20-2003, 04:14 PM
Duh.

TwoHandJam
06-20-2003, 05:07 PM
I guess by headlights you mean J.Howard? DA was big for us all year, and would have been in the playoffs if not for the cheap shot. How soon we forget........

DA sucked some serious ass long before the playoffs. He shot something like 32% for 3 months before the playoffs. He started strong but finished terribly and never seemed to be very clutch.

Anyhow, some good points are made here on both sides. I think Magette may well be the better player but it's hard to tell because they're both don't have much experience yet.

The only things that bug me about Magette are:

1) Cost. We need to secure a big first.
2) The "toenail" incident.
3) Gives up 2" in height to Jackson so not as versatile.

If it were up to me, I'd do my best to slide Jack to the 3 next year off the bench and let him try to earn Bowen's job (which he should hopefully be able to do). Jack is best at being a spot up shooter until he can improve his ball handling and the 3 requires much less creating. Manu clearly deserves to start at the 2 I think.

Some other things Jack has going for him:

1) Fearless.
2) Very cap friendly.
3) Very tough (ie. plays through injuries).
4) Playoff and Finals experience (big!).
5) Wants to improve.

coz
06-20-2003, 08:17 PM
You people are acting like Maggette was the ONLY friggin free agent I mentioned. Read ALL of the posts. Maggette would be my third perimeter player to go after, only after we sign our big (Brand). To say that Maggette is not a huge upgrade over Jack is a mistake. Sure Jack hit some big shots, but we are going to have to pay for those shots. A lot of people are slating Jack into the 4 Milllion a year slot. For 2 more million, you could have Maggette, possibly Payton, and you'd be sniffing at Arenas. You people are going to sit here and tell me you would rather have Jack and his inconsistencies, turnovers, disappearing acts, and general stupidity over one of these three???? I know we just won it all, but wake up and smell the NBA.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 08:22 PM
Jack seems to have a knack for showing up in a big game. Now you want to run him off just for someone who has better regular season stats with the Clippers. F that.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 08:32 PM
You know, Portland built a team with your philosophy. 'Upgrade' wherever they could without any focus on building any chemistry whatsoever. Ginobili's stats weren't exceptional this season...does that mean the Spurs should drop him for someone who is an "upgrade"? He just proved that he is a big game player.

Teams win championships. Selecting lineups that maximize stats gives you Portland.

Truthsayer
06-20-2003, 08:49 PM
You know, Portland built a team with your philosophy. 'Upgrade' wherever they could without any focus on building any chemistry whatsoever. Ginobili's stats weren't exceptional this season...does that mean the Spurs should drop him for someone who is an "upgrade"? He just proved that he is a big game player.

Teams win championships. Selecting lineups that maximize stats gives you Portland.

Exactly. You are 100% right on that.

coz
06-20-2003, 09:18 PM
Please, that same thinking also gives you the Celts and Lakers of the '80's. MB - take off the homer colored glasses for a minute and look at Jack's true value. If you were a GM, would you give Jack 4+ miliion a year? Jack is unstable at best.

I understand Jack has his value, I'm not disputing that. What I am disputing is his value compared to what we can add in his place.

IF we can get Arenas for 6, or Jack for 4, who would you take?

IF we can get Payton for 6, or Jack for 4, who would you take?

IF we can get Maggette for 6, or Jack for 4, who would you take?

I understand we just won, and you have warm and fuzzies for Jack, but just think back for a minute. How many times during this playoff run did you find yourself cursing Jack? How many times were you stupefied at his constant turnovers? All is forgotten by you now because of a huge fourth quarter to clinch, but for me, I'm all about the big picture pal. Jack was nonexistant for most of the playoffs, and you only want me to remember him for ONE quarter?

The Big Picture:

Jack is very upgradeable, and we might have the money to do it after we sign a big. If we have the ability to land Arenas, do it. If not, and we have the ability to land Payton, do it. If not, and we have the ability to land Maggette, do it. If not, resign Jack.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 09:58 PM
Get a clue, coz.

http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1060/10894-0021.jpg

Fantasy all-star lineups don't win championships teams do. Damn, the Spurs won one with an AJ and Elie starting backcourt.

And of course you are forgetting that signing one of those players instead of Jack means that you just burned $6+ mil in cap space that you didn't need to on a non-great player. Brilliant. Call me a homer all you want but at least I'm not clueless.

You aren't seeing the big picture you are ignoring it. You build a team not a bunch of guys with great regular season stats. Things like chemistry and clutch play under playoff pressure do matter. Why do you think a guy like Steve Kerr was worth a five year deal back in '99? Because the man comes through when championships are on the line...not padding his stats with a lottery bound team. Kerr as well buys into the team concept and doesn't skip practices like Arenas nor refuse to play because of a friggin' toenail like Maggette.

Jack's stats aren't horrible and neither is his game. You don't waste precious cap room on a position when you aren't adding a superstar.

And of course it's not a great precedent to run a guy off who just helped you win a title in a big way.

It's called warm, fuzzy, common sense.

coz
06-20-2003, 10:27 PM
Where in this entire thread did I say that one of those three would be the only free agent to pursue? I thought I made it abundantly clear that the Spurs should go after a big first, and find a perimeter threat second. Let me rehash my scenario for you, since you obviously skipped the first few pages of this thread, choosing only to read what you wanted and extole the virtues of Jackson upon me.

S&T - Malik and Claxton for Brand
FA - Arenas/Payton/Maggette
Draft Perkins
Bring in Scola
Roster fill with available $

Starting 5
Parker
Payton/Arenas/Maggette
Bowen
Brand
Duncan

Bench
Kerr(with hopefully Arenas/Payton sliding to point)
Manu
Jack (If he resigns at a REASONABLE price)
Scola
Willis
Perkins
FA
FA

My scenario would involve a rotation of the perimeter players with Parker and Payton/Arenas starting. Parker would get a blow and Manu would come in. Payton/Arenas would shift to point. Jack would come in for Bowen.

If we couldn't get Payton/Arenas, Jack would have to be packaged in the S&T instead of Claxton. Resign Speedy if Maggette is the FA perimeter prize.


Also, I understand the "chemistry and team" concept. Do you understand the "Talent" concept? Good guys are important, the fact that they can play is important also.

Payton: proven leader, wants to win, period.

Maggette: will to succeed, has improved by working his rear end off every year in a do nothing franchise. Has the will to win, and to be better.

Arenas: The player I am unsure of, but based on athletics alone, would be a good gamble.

Finally:
"And of course you are forgetting that signing one of those players instead of Jack means that you just burned $6+ mil in cap space that you didn't need to on a non-great player. Brilliant. Call me a homer all you want but at least I'm not clueless."

umm, so resigning Jack doesn't count against our cap???? WTF are you talking about? If we sign Jack for $4 mil, or we sign Arenas/Payton/Maggette for $6 that would equal $2 million more that we have against the cap. For $2 mil, that is a great upgrade.

"Why do you think a guy like Steve Kerr was worth a five year deal back in '99? Because the man comes through when championships are on the line...not padding his stats with a lottery bound team."

So why did we ship his ass to Portland? I can tell you the ONLY reason we took him back is because his contract is up, and we needed AD gone to free up some PT for Jack/Manu.

Also, when was the last time you saw Maggette perform in the playoffs? How do you know? You choose to ignore stats because they refute your argument, the thing you are missing is that the numbers NEVER LIE. They are factual data, not opinions or interpretations.

The facts are this:

Maggette put up better numbers on a worse team. Maggette was the focus(on the perimeter) of any defense facing the Clips.

Maggette does not play with Tim Duncan

Maggette is a far superior athlete

Maggette is a better shooter

Maggette has the potential to be an All Star, Jack does not.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 10:29 PM
OK I can't let this slide:


I understand we just won, and you have warm and fuzzies for Jack, but just think back for a minute. How many times during this playoff run did you find yourself cursing Jack? How many times were you stupefied at his constant turnovers? All is forgotten by you now because of a huge fourth quarter to clinch, but for me, I'm all about the big picture pal. Jack was nonexistant for most of the playoffs, and you only want me to remember him for ONE quarter?


Actually there were two big quarters (Game 6 v Suns, Game 6 v Nets) and one big half (Game 6 v Mavs) in the playoffs for SJax.

Looking at his stats (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/stephen_jackson/index.html?nav=page) (as you suggest we do) for the playoffs one finds that Jack averaged 16 points per game, 3.5 assists, 4.8 rebounds, and 1.17 steals versus the Suns in that series. Of course you forgot that when you decided to run him off for some guys who were in Cancun at the time. And of course that doesn't count the big shots Jack hit in that game late.

Jack did struggle versus the Lakers with a couple of decent games, while Ginobili had his best series.

Versus the Mavs SJackson had his best series, averaging 16.3 points per game on 49.3% shooting from the field (35.3% from beyond the arc) 2.5 assists, 3.2 rebounds, and 2 steals per contest. "Nonexistent"? Take off your Jack hater glasses. Those stats include the 24 points he dropped in Game 6 of that series (8-14 FG, 5-7 3PTs)...most of which came during the crucial second half in which the Spurs came back from 15 down. And don't tell me it was Kerr. Kerr hit his first three after a Jack led comeback got the Spurs to within 3.

So a look at the playoff stats shows that SJackson performed well in the Phoenix and Dallas series and was a major factor in three of the four clinching Game 6s that the Spurs played in the playoffs, including his three big 3s to win a championship.

In the interest of presenting a fair comparison I looked for the playoff stats of Arenas and Maggette, but was unable to find any. Perhaps you know where they are.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 10:32 PM
umm, so resigning Jack doesn't count against our cap???? WTF are you talking about? If we sign Jack for $4 mil, or we sign Arenas/Payton/Maggette for $6 that would equal $2 million more that we have against the cap. For $2 mil, that is a great upgrade.


Jack is an Early Bird free agent and he will count roughly $900K against the cap until the Spurs re-sign him. The Spurs are free to use that $15 mil in cap space on other free agents, then go over the cap to re-sign Jack to that new deal. That's what the **** I am talking about, Einstein.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 10:36 PM
Also, when was the last time you saw Maggette perform in the playoffs? How do you know? You choose to ignore stats because they refute your argument, the thing you are missing is that the numbers NEVER LIE. They are factual data, not opinions or interpretations.

You're right, the numbers don't lie. Unfortunately you decided not to base your analysis on all of the data available. Thus you were led to an incorrect conclusion.

coz
06-20-2003, 10:36 PM
"In the interest of presenting a fair comparison I looked for the playoff stats of Arenas and Maggette, but was unable to find any. Perhaps you know where they are."

LOL, OK, true, but put Timmy on their respective teams, and they get some stats.

One question, how many TO's did Jack have in the playoffs?

Also, take this argument into account if you will:

The Laker series, as you said was his worst, pitted us up against a team that played honest defense on us. They were the only team that didn't send double, triple, and quadruple teams at Timmy. How does Jack respond to honest defense? By disppearing.

ANY NBA pro should make open 3's..... We give these guys so much props for making OPEN SHOTS. Kerr said it best after the Mavs series:

paraphrasing: "those are shots I should make, I was wide open"

I'm just trying to inform here MB, please take this knowledge.

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 10:39 PM
I would like to respond but you provided nothing intelligible to respond to. Sorry.

coz
06-20-2003, 10:39 PM
"Unfortunately you decided not to base your analysis on all of the data available."

pray tell, oh Yoda of the internet, what stats did I "neglect"?

Marcus Bryant
06-20-2003, 10:46 PM
Playoffs, numbnuts.

And of course you failed to recognize that your use of $6 million of the Spurs' cap room to sign one of the regular season warriors would mean that the Spurs would only have from $8 to 10 million free to use to address other areas of concern.

But hey, the playoff untested Corey Maggette is going to lead the Spurs to victory...toenail and all.

Guru of Nothing
06-20-2003, 10:50 PM
Wow. I did not know Jackson's numbers were that good in the playoffs. Still, you did overlook turnovers. Having said that, I recall a few turnovers occured because his teammates were not looking for his pass. Yes, he plays recklessly sometimes, but I think he will improve and play with greater control - at least I expect him too.

Besides, it's all moot. Really, what are the odds that Pop ships Jackson out of SA? ..... they are slim.

coz
06-20-2003, 10:51 PM
"Playoffs, numbnuts."

you know MB, I hate pissing contests over a medium like the internet, but you are a prick. I wonder if you are such an arrogant ass in real life, or this is just your persona when you can hide behind your pc?

The fact that you constantly start every take with something like "get a clue" or something derrogatory just serves to piss me off, and my guess is that is your point.

My idea was to sign a big with S&T (Brand) thus freeing up Malik's salary to land the perimeter threat. My thinking on this matter was that if Malik's salary is unloaded, we would have that much more to spend. If I'm wrong, sorry.

I obviously don't have the grasp of the CBA like you do, nor do I have the time to read and learn its nuances.

Do me one favor in the future however, don't read any posts by me. If I am so ignorant, I wouldn't want to waste your precious time reading them.

Admiral
06-21-2003, 12:03 AM
First of all, I am not convinced that Maggette can be had for just $6 million per year. He did a lot to improve his stock this year, and is a promising player. Someone will give him more than that.

In addition, I think Stephen Jackson has a ton of potential. He has improved as much as anyone in the league in just a year. Remember, he rarely played AT ALL in 2001-2002, and then this year he starts, plays solid defense (remember how he used to play awful defense?), gives us a slasher we haven't had, and hits some huge shots. This quote stood out at me while reading this thread:


Actually there were two big quarters (Game 6 v Suns, Game 6 v Nets) and one big half (Game 6 v Mavs) in the playoffs for SJax. -Marcus Bryant

We won every series in Game 6. In each of those Game 6's, it took a second half surge to pull away and get the win - a win that, at times, looked impossible to achieve. Stephen Jackson played big in three of our four Game 6's, and if not for his big shots, we would've likely faced a Game 7 in the Finals. You can't put a dollar value on clutch play.

Second, I am tired of people making excuses for our guys because they play on the same team as Tim Duncan (I'm not referring to you, coz). Sure, SJax gets some open looks because of teams doubling down on Tim, but it's not like the Clippers don't have any offensive threats down low. Brand commands a double team, and Olowokandi does on given nights as well. Lamar Odom requires some attention from opposing teams also, so it's not like Maggette was out there by himself as the sole star on his team. But that shouldn't matter anyway. Guys still have to make shots. Besides, SJax creates shots for other Spurs as well with his slashing to the basket. Although he tries to force the issue at times, he is a guy with good court vision. His decision making will get better with time.

Maggette is a good player, but not worth what he will command given the other holes on our team. Getting more than one Clipper this summer (hopefully Brand) would be risky. There is a reason why they did not make the playoffs, so raiding the stars off of their team makes little sense. Olowokandi, Maggette, and Odom are all talented players, but I would only advocate spending money on any of those three if they could be had for a good price. Maggette will probably turn out to be the best of that bunch, but as I stated earlier, doesn't seem to fit well in our lineup. Olowokandi is still raw, and Odom is one drug charge away from a serious suspension.

Our money can be better spent elsewhere.

Marcus Bryant
06-21-2003, 01:15 AM
I love you too, coz.

IcemanCometh
06-21-2003, 03:51 AM
if it were up to you guys jackson never would have started over "playoff performer" Steve Smith so what the hell do you know

Archie
06-21-2003, 04:42 AM
If it were up to you the Spurs would be starting Lenny Cooke.

TwoHandJam
06-21-2003, 10:01 PM
My idea was to sign a big with S&T (Brand) thus freeing up Malik's salary to land the perimeter threat. My thinking on this matter was that if Malik's salary is unloaded, we would have that much more to spend. If I'm wrong, sorry.

I doubt Sterling would go for this trade scenario. He's not into long term contracts like Malik's and the trade is pretty lopsided. Brand would have to force his hand for anything like this to transpire.

Archie
06-21-2003, 10:14 PM
My idea is not to rip up a championship team like some virtual GM's want to.

IcemanCometh
06-21-2003, 10:56 PM
tell that to LA

the ideal would be to sign jermaine o'neal outright which would not "rip" up our championship squad. but what if that can't happen