Barbosa upset about Ginobili's flop

[Kori Ellis]

Barbosa out 1 to 3 weeks, upset about Ginobili 'flop'

Nick Piecoro
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 21, 2005 12:00 AM

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/sports/articles/1121sunsnb1121.html

The Suns learned Sunday that guard Leandro Barbosa suffered a Grade 2 sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his left knee, and the team hopes to have him back in one to three weeks.

For a club that has had its season rocked by another knee injury (Amaré Stoudemire), Barbosa's diagnosis is a relief.

But Barbosa was frustrated over the circumstances of the injury, which occurred at the end of the first half of Saturday night's 97-91 loss at San Antonio.

Spurs guard Manu Ginobili fell backward into the side of Barbosa's knee, and after watching a replay, Barbosa believes the injury could have been avoided.

"Ginobili always likes to flop," Barbosa said. "Nobody even touched him."

Ginobili was apparently trying to get position over Raja Bell when he stumbled backward.

"He just flopped," Barbosa said. "That's why I feel sad to hurt myself like that. I wish I could have hurt myself in another way."

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said: "(Ginobili) got tangled up a little bit with Raja Bell and just to make his point, he was falling down. It was an accident."

Ginobili has long been accused of putting on performances to draw fouls, and was even needled during last season's Western Conference finals when Suns forward Shawn Marion joked about practicing his own acting skills.

Barbosa's injury occurred just when he seemed to be finding his stride. Averaging 15.7 points per game this season, Barbosa had scored 17 or more in each of his previous five games entering Saturday. He had 14 points before getting hurt against the Spurs.

"It's frustrating because he gives us that speed we're missing without Amaré," D'Antoni said. "He's a good kid and he was coming on. It's a bump in the road, but he'll be back on it."


Diaw sits

Boris Diaw received treatment on the left ankle he sprained Saturday night and did not practice.

He hopes to play at home Tuesday against Toronto.

[JMarkJohns]

I think the frustration is justified, though a bit misguided.

Barbosa sat through article after article last season about how he wasn't Nash and could never be close to a contributer in Phoenix. So for him to be their best scorer thus far, then go out like that has got to be mentally hard on a young kid like that. I just hope it doesn't affect his confidense any. he was playing absolutely great.

Manu flopped, but I wish the article would elaborate on the elbow. Bell didn't just get tangled up, though as Sir Chaz said earlier, it wasn't strong enough to knock a completely balanced Ginobili over like that.

[Horry For 3!]

Fuck Barbosa! Manu would never try to hurt a person. It was obvious on the film that he was pushed and that was the main reason why Pop got a Tech because he was yelling at the refs that Manu was being fouled.

[JMarkJohns]

Fuck Barbosa! Manu would never try to hurt a person. It was obvious on the film that he was pushed and that was the main reason why Pop got a Tech because he was yelling at the refs that Manu was being fouled.

Obvious to whom? So, it went from an obvious elbow to a push... Please.

You guys will say anything.

Raja elbowed Manu, who attempted to draw a foul by exaggerating the contact and flopping. No, he didn't intentionally try to hurt Barbosa and Barbosa never said he did. Only that his flop was on purpose.

The cause was intentional, the effect an accident.

[Kori Ellis]

Raja elbowed Manu, who attempted to draw a foul by exaggerating the contact and flopping. No, he didn't intentionally try to hurt Barbosa and Barbosa never said he did. Only that his flop was on purpose.

The cause was intentional, the effect an accident.

Exactly.

[Horry For 3!]

Obvious to whom? So, it went from an obvious elbow to a push... Please.

You guys will say anything.

Raja elbowed Manu, who attempted to draw a foul by exaggerating the contact and flopping. No, he didn't intentionally try to hurt Barbosa and Barbosa never said he did. Only that his flop was on purpose.

The cause was intentional, the effect an accident.
They said during the game that Manu was pushed.

[polandprzem]

Bad boys spurs

Dirty Bruce Lee
Manu Flopperator
Tony "speed" Penetrator
Rasho slammaster
Timothy 'Fro thriller Silent killer

[Tek_XX]

Well shit happens. I'm sure Barbosa's flopped in his day once or twice, god forbid he hurts anyone.

[TDMVPDPOY]

with or without barbs, spurs>sons, i think he should just stop whining and concentrate on his game, then worry about gino. why is he makin a big deal out of it? you dont see shaq blamin artest for his injury add barbs to the whiny biatches that spurs have pwned.

[ZStomp]

Fuck Barbosa! Manu would never try to hurt a person. It was obvious on the film that he was pushed and that was the main reason why Pop got a Tech because he was yelling at the refs that Manu was being fouled.

Barbosa never said Manu hurt him intentionally.

I don't think he meant that Manu was trying to hurt him. I think he meant that Gino likes to flop and as a result of the flopping, he was injured.

[Brutalis]

"Ginobili always likes to flop," Barbosa said. "Nobody even touched him."

Ginobili was apparently trying to get position over Raja Bell when he stumbled backward.

"He just flopped," Barbosa said. "That's why I feel sad to hurt myself like that. I wish I could have hurt myself in another way."

So he starts off being a whiney baby, and makes an excuse for himself. Then cries a little bit more and claims hurting himself a different way would have been somehow more acceptable. Hey! I wonder what whiney excuse you had when you got ran through in the playoffs last year.

Also, where did whining about Bruce Bowen get Carter, Finley and others? A free copy of the 2005 NBA Champions DVD.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I tell you, I don't want to see that fucking moron EVER flop! If Barbosa EVER flops everyone should call him out as a fucking hipocrite! Everyone fucking flops once in a while, its not like Manu invented the damn thing! Just because Manu does it better than most does not give Barbosa the right to run his mouth like that. It was an accident. I know the kid is frustrated, I understand, but someone should tell him to STFU and take it like a man. Real professionals understand the difference between intentional and unintentional.

I don't understand all this talk about how "if manu wouldn' flop this wouldn't have happened" shit! Its not about Manu flopping, if Manu had been hard fouled nobody would be saying shit, and in both scenarios everything was unintenational (except maybe for Bell's elbow) Look, it happened, no one's happy about it, but it happened and Manu's flopping had nothing to do with it.

[spurschick]

The game obviously got very physical and it was only made worse by the bad calls. Good players adjust to how games are called. Manu pulled a flop out of his bag of tricks because he was getting the crap kicked out of him and wasn't getting the foul calls. It is unfortunate that Barbosa got hurt, but I just don't see any player on any team* going out to intentionally hurt anyone. The way that game was going, someone was bound to get hurt anyway.














* except maybe the Nuggets :lol

[T Park]

If Barbosa has a problem with flopping.

He needs to have a talk with Kurt Thomas.

[DarkReign]

He is a total actor, and constantly travels.

Good player though.

[LilMissSPURfect]

So he starts off being a whiney baby, and makes an excuse for himself. Then cries a little bit more and claims hurting himself a different way would have been somehow more acceptable. Hey! I wonder what whiney excuse you had when you got ran through in the playoffs last year.

Also, where did whining about Bruce Bowen get Carter, Finley and others? A free copy of the 2005 NBA Champions DVD.



:fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro :fro

[Bruno]

What a surprise : a Brazilian guy trashing Argentinian one ?
(Soccer fans will understand)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

What a surprise : a Brazilian guy trashing Argentinian one ?
(Soccer fans will understand)
Amen!

[ca®lo]

heck even ben wallace flops.

when he got hit by...










TONY PARKER! :D

[DarkReign]

heck even ben wallace flops.

when he got hit by...


TONY PARKER! :D

Its true. No denying it. I am not harping on Manu because he is a Spur. I just dont like his game, is all. No bias. He travels....alot. But he does it with subtlety. He flops....alot. Almost every time he drives or shoots, the guy is flopping.

Ben DID flop when TP drove. Thats to get a call on a certain play. Manu flops nearly every time he is on the floor. Thats a big difference.

Ben flopped because refs wont call an offensive foul unless the defensive player goes down. If he didnt flop, and TP stopped on his chest, Ben may have been called! Thats the game, I guess. I dont like it, but it is what it is.

Again, there are alot of players who constantly travel (Rip Hamilton). I still dont like it. Thats all I am saying.

[ducks]

Leandrinho Barbosa: Doubtful Next Two Games
RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Sunday, November 20, 2005

Update: Barbosa is doubtful for the next two games after spraining his left knee's medial collateral ligament in Saturday night's loss to the Spurs, the Arizona Republic reports. He could miss more time depending the results of a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) test scheduled for Sunday.

Recommendation: "It was bad," Barbosa said with his back flat on a training table. "It still hurts, but not like when he hit me." This could be a tough blow to the Suns as Barbosa had been playing the best basketball of his career. He scored 14 point first-half points against San Antonio and has been much more comfortable on the court this season.

[boutons]

So it was ligament scary, but will be less lost time than Shaq's sprained ankle or Brent's cramped back.

[pache100]

"That's why I feel sad to hurt myself like that. I wish I could have hurt myself in another way."

Yeah, me, too, Leandro. Maybe if you'd hurt your mouth, you wouldn't be whining. Shut up and play basketball.

[Cherry]

“I don’t like people that cry a lot and complain,” Ginobili said in the postseason. “But I’m not going to make that change my way of playing, the way I feel the game.

“I’m just going to keep doing what I do.” ;)

[TMTTRIO]

here's a pic. Take it anyway you want too but it looked like Manu was pushed

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3263/raja42xl.jpg

[JamStone]

If say Danny Fortson flopped when trying to take a charging foul on a Manu drive, and by flopping, he landed on Tim Duncan's leg and broke it, a lot of you Spurs fans who defend Manu's flopping would be in an outrage at Danny Fortson.

Manu is a great player, and his flopping does not overshadow his competitive nature or determined style of play. But, you have to at least understand when some players get annoyed or frustrated by it. Sure, a lot of players flop to a certain degree. But, even Spurs fans have to admit that Manu does it much more than most players. Hey, if you have an advantage, use it. But, perhaps maybe he takes it too far sometimes.

Just look at it objectively.

[Banks91]

If say Danny Fortson flopped when trying to take a charging foul on a Manu drive, and by flopping, he landed on Tim Duncan's leg and broke it, a lot of you Spurs fans who defend Manu's flopping would be in an outrage at Danny Fortson.

Manu is a great player, and his flopping does not overshadow his competitive nature or determined style of play. But, you have to at least understand when some players get annoyed or frustrated by it. Sure, a lot of players flop to a certain degree. But, even Spurs fans have to admit that Manu does it much more than most players. Hey, if you have an advantage, use it. But, perhaps maybe he takes it too far sometimes.

Just look at it objectively.


That's rational thinkin right there, but your not gonna get most spurs fans to think like that. It's not just them, its most fans of most teams. They dont want to believe their favourite player could be responsible for having injured another player.

[SirChaz]

here's a pic. Take it anyway you want too but it looked like Manu was pushed

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3263/raja42xl.jpg


Or boxed out.

Sure it was with an extended arm but Bell's extended arm didn't throw Manu to the ground.

If he is being pushed in that picture it is even more interesting because Barbosa is in the opposite direction.

[samikeyp]

Manu pulled a flop out of his bag of tricks because he was getting the crap kicked out of him and wasn't getting the foul calls

This is the part I find ironic. Manu gets the crap kicked out of him on a nightly basis...that gets convenietly ignored. Manu doesn't bitch about it...he just plays. Personally (and I know I will get slapped with a "homer" label because the idea that someone can be objective about their team is a foriegn concept to those who don't get it) but I thought Manu was pushed judging by the replay I saw. Does Manu flop. Yes. Do a lot of players flop? Yes...Manu did not invent it. As far as traveling goes...hell, in the NBA its pretty much accepted...even MJ took the extra step. It sucks that Barbosa got hurt. I don't like seeing any player get hurt especially a young exciting kid like him but these things happen. No intent, no pre-meditation. Its like those Spurs fans who were trying to say Ben Wallace intentionally set his foot under Duncans so Duncan would twist his ankle. It's bullshit. I imagine Barbosa was frustrated and angry, I would be too. Same with Suns fan....I would be pissed. But this Oliver Stone "Manu's out to getcha" crap is stupid. I bet Barbosa will rehab, get healed, be a man and come back...hopefully some of his fans will too.

[samikeyp]

You can be pushed when being boxed out.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know why Spurs fans get so defensive. Manu flops A LOT. Much more than the average player. He's probably one of the top five floppers in the league. It's not that he is completely acting. But if anyone doesn't see how much he regularly overexaggerates the contact to try to get foul calls, I don't know what to think. It's part of what he does. It's not a knock on Manu; it's part of his game.

[5ToolMan]

So he starts off being a whiney baby, and makes an excuse for himself. Then cries a little bit more and claims hurting himself a different way would have been somehow more acceptable. Hey! I wonder what whiney excuse you had when you got ran through in the playoffs last year.

Also, where did whining about Bruce Bowen get Carter, Finley and others? A free copy of the 2005 NBA Champions DVD.

It is amazing how weak some NBA players are. Barbosa's crying and blaming Manu for his injury that was a result of incidental contact places him in the same lack of class as Allen and Carter. These little girls need to learn to nut it up, understand it is a man's game and just play ball. :smokin

[samikeyp]

I don't know why Spurs fans get so defensive. Manu flops A LOT. Much more than the average player. He's probably one of the top five floppers in the league. It's not that he is completely acting. But if anyone doesn't see how much he regularly overexaggerates the contact to try to get foul calls, I don't know what to think. It's part of what he does. It's not a knock on Manu; it's part of his game.

Very true. Its probably the only part of his game I don't like but to say its not there is just wrong.

[angel_luv]

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said: "(Ginobili) got tangled up a little bit with Raja Bell and just to make his point, he was falling down. It was an accident."






I am sorry Barbosa got hurt and I understand his frustration. But the fact is that injuries like that happen to everyone from time to time. It is a part of the game.

It appears that Coach D'Antoni understood that it was an accident.

[Kori Ellis]

I am sorry Barbosa got hurt and I understand his frustration. But the fact is that injuries like that happen to everyone from time to time. It is a part of the game.

It appears that Coach D'Antoni understood that it was an accident.

Barbosa knows that Manu didn't hurt him on purpose. But he knows that he flops on purpose. I don't know if people are seeing that distinction. Of course he's not saying that Manu intentionally hurt him ... but hurting him was a consequence of Manu's intentional flopping.

Hopefully Barbosa will be back quickly -- He was playing extremely well.

[conqueso]

Manu is a great player, and his flopping does not overshadow his competitive nature or determined style of play. But, you have to at least understand when some players get annoyed or frustrated by it. Sure, a lot of players flop to a certain degree. But, even Spurs fans have to admit that Manu does it much more than most players. Hey, if you have an advantage, use it. But, perhaps maybe he takes it too far sometimes.

Ginobili might flop more than most players. But he also takes harder hits than most players. He never gets up in anyone's face after a hard foul with some kind of macho bravado, but most other players do. There's no real empirical basis for this, but it seems intuitively correct: if you compared all the times he's gotten fouled and not received the call to the all the times he's gotten a call which wasn't deserved, the former would probably outnumber the latter. Even if that's not accurate and the two are about even, then justice has been served; the net result is equitable.

Some of the greatest players of all time were habitual floppers, or at least used the technique to get calls (Rodman and Malone in the '98 Finals might be the best example of all time). It's a part of the game that no one really likes, but everyone kind of just accepts.

The Suns (and some of their fans) bitch a whole lot about Manu flopping all the time, and I can understand their frustration. But what Barbosa and D'Antoni and Collangelo and a whole slew of others need to realize is that Manu is not what they make him out to be. He is not a cheap player trying to play outside the rules or cheat the game. While they never explicitly say things like that, the sentiment is implicit in all their comments. It's easy to point a finger at Manu and say he's the boy who cried wolf, but I don't think that exagerrating contact while playing basketball is the same kind of thing.

[pache100]

This is the part I find ironic. Manu gets the crap kicked out of him on a nightly basis...that gets convenietly ignored. Manu doesn't bitch about it...he just plays.

Exactly. That's all I want Barbosa to do, too.

[Banks91]

Exactly. That's all I want Barbosa to do, too.

And your point being?

That kind of thinkin is whats wrong with most fans. Why bring up his good qualities when that isnt what is up for debate. Changin of the subject just shows you have nothing to say .

Say one player likes to give hard flagrant fouls, and he doesnt say anything when he gets a hard foul back, does that make what he's doin in the first place suddenly acceptable.???????

[samikeyp]

That kind of thinkin is whats wrong with most fans. Why bring up his good qualities when that isnt what is up for debate

Agreed...for the record, I didn't see Barbosa as bitching. The kid was frustrated. I would have been too.

[pache100]

And your point being?

That kind of thinkin is whats wrong with most fans. Why bring up his good qualities when that isnt what is up for debate. Changin of the subject just shows you have nothing to say.

Well, thank you very much for your opinion. Worth about as much as mine, huh? I did not change the subject (WTF?).

And, at least I wasn't rude to another poster for no reason.

[boutons]

Vince whines
Ray whines
Leandro whines
... not good company for a breaking out youngster like Leandro

Tim doesn't whine
Manu doesn't whine
Shaq doesnt whine (but I think he will probably delay his lazy, fat, bored ass from coming back until after Christmas)

Pop wines. :)

[angel_luv]

Barbosa knows that Manu didn't hurt him on purpose. But he knows that he flops on purpose. I don't know if people are seeing that distinction. Of course he's not saying that Manu intentionally hurt him ... but hurting him was a consequence of Manu's intentional flopping.

Hopefully Barbosa will be back quickly -- He was playing extremely well.


I think that is fair. I hope Barbosa is better too. I am really sorry he got hurt.

[5ToolMan]

Its true. No denying it. I am not harping on Manu because he is a Spur. I just dont like his game, is all. No bias. He travels....alot. But he does it with subtlety. He flops....alot. Almost every time he drives or shoots, the guy is flopping.

Ben DID flop when TP drove. Thats to get a call on a certain play. Manu flops nearly every time he is on the floor. Thats a big difference.

Ben flopped because refs wont call an offensive foul unless the defensive player goes down. If he didnt flop, and TP stopped on his chest, Ben may have been called! Thats the game, I guess. I dont like it, but it is what it is.

Again, there are alot of players who constantly travel (Rip Hamilton). I still dont like it. Thats all I am saying.

Amazing how the parrots picked up on Karl's banter, when he was trying to work the refs and gain an advantage, and spew it like it is the gosple. Manu, like every player in the NBA, including the mighty Shaq, does exagerate contact on occasion. It is a type of gamesmanship, just like the coaches working the zebras on the court and in the press.

The truth be known, to those who know the game, Manu flops much less than he gets credit for. Especially after playoff publicity brought out the mindless parrots with little knowledge of the game echoing the crying of Karl, Nugget fans, Sonic fans, and Suns fans.

Manu takes extreme contact, perhaps more contact than any player in the NBA because of his unique ability to throw players off balance and step through the smallest of seams in the defense. Yes, he pisses off and frustrates defenders, who don't have a clue on how to stop him.

How any sane rational person could say Manu flops all the time, after the physical contact he endured in last years playoffs, is beyond me. Other star players in the NBA don't "flop" like Manu, because none are capible of consistantly contorting themselves into angles to draw the type of contact he draws with regularity.

[pache100]

Amazing how the parrots picked up on Karl's banter, when he was trying to work the refs and gain an advantage, and spew it like it is the gosple. Manu, like every player in the NBA, including the mighty Shaq, does exagerate contact on occasion. It is a type of gamesmanship, just like the coaches working the zebras on the court and in the press.

The truth be known, to those who know the game, Manu flops much less than he gets credit for. Especially after playoff publicity brought out the mindless parrots with little knowledge of the game echoing the crying of Karl, Nugget fans, Sonic fans, and Suns fans.

Manu takes extreme contact, perhaps more contact than any player in the NBA because of his unique ability to throw players off balance and step through the smallest of seams in the defense. Yes, he pisses off and frustrates defenders, who don't have a clue on how to stop him.

How any sane rational person could say Manu flops all the time, after the physical contact he endured in last years playoffs, is beyond me. Other star players in the NBA don't "flop" like Manu, because none are capible of consistantly contorting themselves into angles to draw the type of contact he draws with regularity.

:tu :tu :tu :tu

[nkdlunch]

That's our Gino!!! :lol

[5ToolMan]

I don't know why Spurs fans get so defensive. Manu flops A LOT. Much more than the average player. He's probably one of the top five floppers in the league. It's not that he is completely acting. But if anyone doesn't see how much he regularly overexaggerates the contact to try to get foul calls, I don't know what to think. It's part of what he does. It's not a knock on Manu; it's part of his game.

Kori, I am not being defensive. I just feel the camp that claims Manu flops alot in respect to other players does not understand the game, or at least what is unique about Manu's game, making him both unusual and great.

Manu is one of the most flexable contortionists I have seen to play the game. He twists into gaps that few players can find. With this ability, he gets defenders off balance and guessing on which way he is going. Manu himself is often off balance, yet in controll. This creates some of the extreme contact we have witnessed Manu endure. And because Manu contorts to exploit hidden seams, throwing himself off balance, it exagerated the contact when it does happen.

[JamStone]

The fact that Manu takes a lot of hits has nothing to do with him flopping. Most of his flopping occurs on the defensive side of the ball. Most of the hits he takes are on the offensive side of the ball. And, with all those hits he takes, he attacks the rim KNOWING he's gonna get hit. Other players don't go around expecting opponents to flop and accidentally injure them.

There are some distinctions that some of you don't seem willing to apply.

Just because Manu takes a lot of hits does not justify any flopping. If someone flagrant fouled Manu, does that give him a free pass on undercutting someone in the air? Of course not. Two different discussions, two different topics. And, some of you are using the wrong arguments to justify any flopping.

[5ToolMan]

Barbosa knows that Manu didn't hurt him on purpose. But he knows that he flops on purpose. I don't know if people are seeing that distinction. Of course he's not saying that Manu intentionally hurt him ... but hurting him was a consequence of Manu's intentional flopping.

Hopefully Barbosa will be back quickly -- He was playing extremely well.

Do you see the distinction that Barbosa should have kept his mouth shut on the subject of flopping?

The play was an unfortunate event in the regular course of action. Nuff said. If he is going to play the game, he should be man enough to understand **it happens.

[samikeyp]

And, some of you are using the wrong arguments to justify any flopping.

Are you speaking of Manu, or flopping in general. (just asking.)

[JamStone]

samikeyp,

Manu. Using the logic that it's ok to flop since he gets hit so much and doesn't get fouls. The equilibrium, things-work-out-even, two-wrongs-make-a-right argument. I don't think it should be a justifiable rationale.

[5ToolMan]

And your point being?

That kind of thinkin is whats wrong with most fans. Why bring up his good qualities when that isnt what is up for debate. Changin of the subject just shows you have nothing to say .

Say one player likes to give hard flagrant fouls, and he doesnt say anything when he gets a hard foul back, does that make what he's doin in the first place suddenly acceptable.???????

LET ME TYPE REAL LOUD SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND.

HE SAID, HE WANTED BARBOSA TO LEARN TO STOP CRYING, NUT IT UP AND JUST PLAY BALL.

HIS POINT WAS DIRECTLY ON SUBJECT. IT IS YOURS THAT IS A CHEAP INSULT AND OFF SUBJECT. :hat

[SenorSpur]

Hey, if Manu's flopping create a turnover for the opposition and creates a change of possession - I'm all for it.

[5ToolMan]

The fact that Manu takes a lot of hits has nothing to do with him flopping. Most of his flopping occurs on the defensive side of the ball. Most of the hits he takes are on the offensive side of the ball. And, with all those hits he takes, he attacks the rim KNOWING he's gonna get hit. Other players don't go around expecting opponents to flop and accidentally injure them.

There are some distinctions that some of you don't seem willing to apply.

Just because Manu takes a lot of hits does not justify any flopping. If someone flagrant fouled Manu, does that give him a free pass on undercutting someone in the air? Of course not. Two different discussions, two different topics. And, some of you are using the wrong arguments to justify any flopping.

You must be new to the game. Drawing fouls is paramont to knowing how to play defense. If a player has good defensive footwork, he owes it to his team to use his skills to place himself into position to draw contact from off balance or over agressive offensive players. Manu is guilty of doing both of the above.

As for you assertion that most of Manu's flopping comes at the defensive end, that "charge" is unique. Most of the cries from Karl, Nugget fans and Suns fans came from Manu selling contact he recieved as he played offense.

One question Suns fan. Have you ever seen a Suns player hit the floor while trying to draw a charge? Nevermind, I almost forgot. When I flashed back to last years WCF's I remember; the Suns and aparantly Suns fans don't know jack about playing defense. :smokin

[T Park]

once again,

if Ginobili were a Piston or a Suns, this discussion would be moot.

Once again, Kurt Thomas flops just as much, as does Ben Wallace.

[5ToolMan]

You must be new to the game. Drawing fouls is paramont to knowing how to play defense. If a player has good defensive footwork, he owes it to his team to use his skills to place himself into position to draw contact from off balance or over agressive offensive players. Manu is guilty of doing both of the above.

As for you assertion that most of Manu's flopping comes at the defensive end, that "charge" is unique. Most of the cries from Karl, Nugget fans and Suns fans came from Manu selling contact he recieved as he played offense.

One question Suns fan. Have you ever seen a Suns player hit the floor while trying to draw a charge? Nevermind, I almost forgot. When I flashed back to last years WCF's I remember; the Suns and aparantly Suns fans don't know jack about playing defense. :smokin

Man was I suprised to see the post above was from a Piston's fan. What a laugh. A fan of the Bad Boys crying about Manu abusing teams with flops.

Lindsey Hunter learned his flopping from Derick Fish-out-of-water, and you cry about Manu. You are a riot!

[Banks91]

The denial is very strong on this board.

Let's make this very simple for the people that can't see because they got their homer glasses on.

Do we all agree that manu tends to flop? Yes we do, nobody here can deny that.
Do we all agree the suns player got hurt by manu? yes we do.
Do we all agree that it wasnt intentional? yes we do
Is it possible that manu could have exaggerated the contact on the play? yes, its quite possible.

How fucking hard is that to understand. NOBODY is above criticism , and having their play analyzed. Not Duncan, not shaq, not anybody.

[JamStone]

You must be new to the game. Drawing fouls is paramont to knowing how to play defense. If a player has good defensive footwork, he owes it to his team to use his skills to place himself into position to draw contact from off balance or over agressive offensive players. Manu is guilty of doing both of the above.

As for you assertion that most of Manu's flopping comes at the defensive end, that "charge" is unique. Most of the cries from Karl, Nugget fans and Suns fans came from Manu selling contact he recieved as he played offense.

One question Suns fan. Have you ever seen a Suns player hit the floor while trying to draw a charge? Nevermind, I almost forgot. When I flashed back to last years WCF's I remember; the Suns and aparantly Suns fans don't know jack about playing defense. :smokin



Must you address people with such condescending talk like "you must be new to the game" or "anyone who really knows basketball." You know so much about basketball, shouldn't you be on an NBA coaching staff?

People have opinions. If you disagree, fine. You know, even if you think you know about the rules of basketball and the game in general, you might be wrong sometimes. A lot of Spurs fans here are great and knowledgeable fans. The arrogant, self-stroking egoists like you who have to make themselves feel better by talking down to people really stink up the joint.

Are you new to debating?

Your contention that drawing fouls is paramount to playing defense HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FLOPPING. Someone can draw a charge or play very good defense WITHOUT flopping. Why you spent a whole paragraph of irrelevant justification over drawing fouls when the topic was flopping is beyond me.

I don't have much of a problem if Manu exaggerates on the offensive side to try to get a foul. It's when he's barely touched on defense and drops straight to the ground that I think is unnecessary. I thought the foul he tried to draw on Amare Stoudemire last year in the playoffs when Amare tried to shrug him off, didn't touch him, and Manu dropped like he'd just been hit by an uppercut punch are the type of flopping that annoys me as a basketball fan in general. But, if Manu tries to create contact when he attacks the rim and exaggerates a little bit to get a call, I have no problem with that. When a player attacks the rim like he does and takes the hits he takes, I think he should get the benefit of the doubt most of the time. Again, it's the flopping on the defensive side or even in loose ball situations that takes away from how good of a player Manu is, in my opinion.

[JamStone]

Man was I suprised to see the post above was from a Piston's fan. What a laugh. A fan of the Bad Boys crying about Manu abusing teams with flops.

Lindsey Hunter learned his flopping from Derick Fish-out-of-water, and you cry about Manu. You are a riot!


I didn't see Lindsey Hunter flop too much. I'd be upset if he did. Lindsey uses his feet and quick hands to play defense. If and when he flops, I'll be the first one to say it was a flop.

Who else on the Pistons flop?

Ben had one flop against a Tony Parker drive in last year's finals. But, as has intimated, Ben doesn't get that call if he just stands there and let's Tony bounce off of him. So, you play within the gamesmanship of the sport ... TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. Manu often takes it a step further.

It's funny to me that most Spurs fans can't take honest, constructive criticism. To be honest, Manu Ginobili is one of my favorite players. I think he's amazing. But, I'm going to call a duck a duck. He's a flopper.

[Supergirl]

Flopping: Exaggerating teh effect of physical contact to ensure a foul call.

By definition, a FLOP can't hurt someone. A FLOP is simply exaggerating the effect, not creating any contact.

If Barbosa wants to complain about someone (and I think he's stupid to do so - he plays basketball for cripe's sake. If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen) then he should complain about his own teammate, Raja Bell, who DOES, BTW, have a history of trying to hurt people when he plays.

[samikeyp]

samikeyp,

Manu. Using the logic that it's ok to flop since he gets hit so much and doesn't get fouls. The equilibrium, things-work-out-even, two-wrongs-make-a-right argument. I don't think it should be a justifiable rationale.

so then you are cool with it if another player does it. (again...just asking)

[pache100]

Must you address people with such condescending talk
People have opinions

Pot calls kettle black. Go back and read some of your posts.


If you disagree, fine.

Good advice for us all. Including JamStone.


It's funny to me that most Spurs fans can't take honest, constructive criticism.

Yeah, that runs pretty rampant among NBA fans of all flavors, even Pistons fans. It's funny to me that when one disagrees with you, they "can't take constructive criticism".

See your own advice above. Just agree to disagree. Just because we are not parrotting you does not mean we are wrong. It just means we don't agree with you.

[JamStone]

so then you are cool with it if another player does it. (again...just asking)


Nope. In general, I don't like flopping, no matter who does it. I understand if a player exaggerates somewhat in order to get a call. But, what I truly abhor is if a player is hardly even hit or touched and that players flies across the floor like he's been drop-kicked. That is what really is annoying.

Exaggeration is understandable. My idea or definition of flopping is the extreme variation of that.

[JamStone]

Pot calls kettle black. Go back and read some of your posts.

I'd be happy to. Point out which ones you are referring to where I am condescending and talk down to people. I'd be more than agreeable to read them and insert my foot in my mouth if you are correct.

[sprrs]

If say Danny Fortson flopped when trying to take a charging foul on a Manu drive, and by flopping, he landed on Tim Duncan's leg and broke it, a lot of you Spurs fans who defend Manu's flopping would be in an outrage at Danny Fortson.


Like the time Duncan landed on Sheed's foot and sprained his ankle?

There was thousands of angry fans who complaiined that day :rolleyes

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Oh please! Suns fans are simply angry and bitter at having lost one of their key players and having lost the game. Manu flops, yes. WHO GIVES A FUCK!? Whoever blames that accident on Manu's flopping is a complete idiot. That scenario could have happened in a million different ways. Basically this is whats going on here 1) Suns fans are frustrated at having lost one of the key players, and yet another game 2) Suns fans hate how Manu used his flopping to own them all throughout last playoffs 3)Suns fans are using this accident as an excuse to complain about Manu's flopping because they are bitter about both Saturday's loss and last playoffs loss, when in reality Manu's flopping is beside the point!

[conqueso]

Nope. In general, I don't like flopping, no matter who does it. I understand if a player exaggerates somewhat in order to get a call. But, what I truly abhor is if a player is hardly even hit or touched and that players flies across the floor like he's been drop-kicked. That is what really is annoying.

Exaggeration is understandable. My idea or definition of flopping is the extreme variation of that.

So does Manu exaggerate contact or does he flop? I'd say that what he does most of the time is exaggerate. I'm sure there are a (relatively small) number of instances where he has been hardly hit and flown across the floor like he was drop-kicked. But usually, there's at least some kind of reasonable contact that initiates it.

Take Saturday night, for instance. Manu took an elbow and fell to the court. That isn't the kind of stuff you see Vlade Divac pull all the time, the extreme variation we would probably all agree to call "flopping."

I'm not sure if I'm just biased because Manu is the second-coming or whatever, but I hardly ever see him doing the outrageous type of flopping that you have distinguished. Exaggerating to get calls (on both offense and defense): yes. Extreme histrionics: no.

[pache100]

I'd be happy to. Point out which ones you are referring to where I am condescending and talk down to people. I'd be more than agreeable to read them and insert my foot in my mouth if you are correct.

Well, I listed some below. If you can't see the condescension in your posts, it probably won't help to have someone point it out to you.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Good God.

Between D'Antoni, their owner, Marion, and Barbosa, Phoenix has become nothing but a glorified version of the Vagina Monologs.

[5ToolMan]

The denial is very strong on this board.

Let's make this very simple for the people that can't see because they got their homer glasses on.

Do we all agree that manu tends to flop? Yes we do, nobody here can deny that.
Do we all agree the suns player got hurt by manu? yes we do.
Do we all agree that it wasnt intentional? yes we do
Is it possible that manu could have exaggerated the contact on the play? yes, its quite possible.

How fucking hard is that to understand. NOBODY is above criticism , and having their play analyzed. Not Duncan, not shaq, not anybody.

Perhaps you need to change your glasses or at least quit kissing up to the visitors while not clearly conveying the rest of the facts of the thread.

I have seen few Spurs fans who would disagree with most of what you expressed. However, you or other Spurs fans who pacify outsiders who say things like Manu flops more than any player in history, are either ignorant to Manu's game or simply doing your own flopping, just to kiss up to visitors.

If visitors came in and said what you infer they have said, few would have trouble with it, even if it is not the whole truth. Few Spurs fans here would dispute, Manu does sell contact. It is part of the game, and part of his game that he is good at. However, the real truth is; Manu's unique contortionist ability and uncanny instincts, combined with lack of perception and/or frustration of most fans, lead more to Manu's reputation as a flopper, more than anything he does on the court.

Watch some film in very slow motion, and learn how Manu uses his unique flexability to get into seams on offense, and uncanny instinct to cut off players on defense to draw much more contact than most players are capible of. When other players are frustrated by Manu, it is for a reason. It is because they don't have a clue to where he is going, or where he will be.

Quit flopping to visiting fans! Watch the film, and learn to speak the truth about the amazing Manu!

[JamStone]

Well, I listed some below. If you can't see the condescension in your posts, it probably won't help to have someone point it out to you.



Apparently to you saying "most people can't take honest constructive criticism" equates to condescending talk. Ok. We have a major difference of opinion there then.

[pache100]

Apparently to you saying "most people can't take honest constructive criticism" equates to condescending talk. Ok. We have a major difference of opinion there then.

You know what? I'm done with it. I already knew we have a major difference of opinion. That's what I said to you.

Fight on!

Edit:

I'm done with YOU on this matter. I reserve the right to comment on others' posts in this thread.

[JamStone]

So does Manu exaggerate contact or does he flop? I'd say that what he does most of the time is exaggerate. I'm sure there are a (relatively small) number of instances where he has been hardly hit and flown across the floor like he was drop-kicked. But usually, there's at least some kind of reasonable contact that initiates it.

Take Saturday night, for instance. Manu took an elbow and fell to the court. That isn't the kind of stuff you see Vlade Divac pull all the time, the extreme variation we would probably all agree to call "flopping."

I'm not sure if I'm just biased because Manu is the second-coming or whatever, but I hardly ever see him doing the outrageous type of flopping that you have distinguished. Exaggerating to get calls (on both offense and defense): yes. Extreme histrionics: no.


Agreed. If Manu just cut out the extreme stuff, I would be cool with it. No reason to get upset at a little over-exaggeration. But, the extreme stuff, yes, that's annoying.

[JamStone]

Like the time Duncan landed on Sheed's foot and sprained his ankle?

There was thousands of angry fans who complaiined that day :rolleyes


No one complained because there was nothing to complain about.

Not only was there no intent, there was nothing unnecessary that was done that could have likely avoided the sprain.

Had Manu not flopped, the injury to Barbosa could have likely been avoided. I think that's the difference.

[samikeyp]

No one complained because there was nothing to complain about.

Some people did complain actually. It was unfounded and dismissed but it did happen.

That was baseless and stupid just as the implication that Ginobili did it on purpose is baseless and stupid.

[DarkReign]

He "flopped" and hurt someone. IMO, shit happens.

It just figures its Manu doing it.

The guy travels....ALOT...and its never called. It has to be embarassing for refs to watch game-tape.

I wish I could show you all what I mean, because this next explanation might not be the greatest...

Its the NBA...youre basically allowed 2 steps to the basket. this can be done LEGALLY 2 ways.

a) [pick up ball]...Left foot....jump off right foot...layup/dunk/shot
b) [pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet...jump for dunk/layup/shot

Manu on the other hand, exploits this rule, doing this ALOT

[pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet....pivot on pivot foot...leap off the non-pivot foot for dunk/layup/shot

Thats a travel. Its small, but its an explotation IMO. I can hear the argument already..."well, everyone else should do it then!" No, they shouldnt. The NBA is already ridiculed enough for the players lack of fundamental skills (except TD...dude is amazing). Youve got high school kids playing in a man's league with minimal idea on how to navigate an NBA-calibre defense.

Manu....is....awesome. No doubt. He single-handedly stole game 7 down the stretch. For that performance alone, it is my opinion he should have won Finals MVP. But it does not mitigate his traveling / flopping. It makes liking him very difficult for me. But that me, and I dont matter.

I think this is where this thread was heading / hijacked. Wasnt so much about "whoever-his-name-is" getting hurt. More about Manu and his soccer-like embelishment antics. If his game becomes accepted, we will be a few years from players falling on the ground screaming like theyve been shot for calls, only to get up and smile. Its disgusting.

[JamStone]

samikeyp,

I thought it's been well established that no one is saying Ginobili hurt Barbosa on purpose ... only that the intentional flopping was the cause of the injury.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No one complained because there was nothing to complain about.

Not only was there no intent, there was nothing unnecessary that was done that could have likely avoided the sprain.

Had Manu not flopped, the injury to Barbosa could have likely been avoided. I think that's the difference.
IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!!! Let it go! Manu's flopping is beside the point. Flopping is not a crime, and just because it happened to injure one of your players by accident, does not make it one! You're not angry because Manu flopped, you're angry because one of your players got injured in an accident, and you can find no other way of venting than to rag on Manu who was doing a perfectly legal thing!

[JamStone]

He "flopped" and hurt someone. IMO, shit happens.

It just figures its Manu doing it.

The guy travels....ALOT...and its never called. It has to be embarassing for refs to watch game-tape.

I wish I could show you all what I mean, because this next explanation might not be the greatest...

Its the NBA...youre basically allowed 2 steps to the basket. this can be done LEGALLY 2 ways.

a) [pick up ball]...Left foot....jump off right foot...layup/dunk/shot
b) [pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet...jump for dunk/layup/shot

Manu on the other hand, exploits this rule, doing this ALOT

[pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet....pivot on pivot foot...leap off the non-pivot foot for dunk/layup/shot

Thats a travel. Its small, but its an explotation IMO. I can hear the argument already..."well, everyone else should do it then!" No, they shouldnt. The NBA is already ridiculed enough for the players lack of fundamental skills (except TD...dude is amazing). Youve got high school kids playing in a man's league with minimal idea on how to navigate an NBA-calibre defense.

Manu....is....awesome. No doubt. He single-handedly stole game 7 down the stretch. For that performance alone, it is my opinion he should have won Finals MVP. But it does not mitigate his traveling / flopping. It makes liking him very difficult for me. But that me, and I dont matter.

I think this is where this thread was heading / hijacked. Wasnt so much about "whoever-his-name-is" getting hurt. More about Manu and his soccer-like embelishment antics. If his game becomes accepted, we will be a few years from players falling on the ground screaming like theyve been shot for calls, only to get up and smile. Its disgusting.


Here in Detroit, we know all about travelling. Rip Hamilton does it everytime he catches a pass and shuffles his feet before making a move.

[JamStone]

IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!!! Let it go! Manu's flopping is beside the point. Flopping is not a crime, and just because it happened to injure one of your players by accident, does not make it one! You're not angry because Manu flopped, you're angry because one of your players got injured in an accident, and you can find no other way of venting than to rag on Manu who was doing a perfectly legal thing!


Ummmm ... I'm not a Suns fan. I was giving an objective opinion. I was born and raised in Detroit and have been a Pistons fan my entire life. I am not venting over an injury of one of "MY" players.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ummmm ... I'm not a Suns fan. I was giving an objective opinion. I was born and raised in Detroit and have been a Pistons fan my entire life. I am not venting over an injury of one of "MY" players.
my bad, labeled you a Suns fan, got lost there for a bit http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[pache100]

my bad, labeled you a Suns fan, got lost there for a bit http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

Yeah. That's easy to do.

[conqueso]

The guy travels....ALOT...and its never called. It has to be embarassing for refs to watch game-tape.

I wish I could show you all what I mean, because this next explanation might not be the greatest...

Its the NBA...youre basically allowed 2 steps to the basket. this can be done LEGALLY 2 ways.

a) [pick up ball]...Left foot....jump off right foot...layup/dunk/shot
b) [pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet...jump for dunk/layup/shot

Manu on the other hand, exploits this rule, doing this ALOT

[pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet....pivot on pivot foot...leap off the non-pivot foot for dunk/layup/shot

Thats a travel. Its small, but its an explotation IMO. I can hear the argument already..."well, everyone else should do it then!" No, they shouldnt.

I used to lodge the same complaint while watching Jordan, Magic, Isaiah, Kobe, TMac, Drexler, Vince, etc. do the exact same thing until I realized that traveling doesn't really exist in the NBA. Only the most obvious infraction ever gets called, unless you're a big man who is not named Shaq, in which case pivoting too many times on one foot can be traveling.

It doesn't change the fact that it's all still technically traveling. But only a purist can reasonably complain about it, because everyone in the NBA gets away with it.


If his game becomes accepted, we will be a few years from players falling on the ground screaming like theyve been shot for calls, only to get up and smile. Its disgusting.

That's an obvious overstatement. Manu never does that. Come on.

For reference:

NBA Rules and Regulations
Section XIV-Traveling
a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
f. In starting a dribble after (1) receiving the ball while standing still, or (2) coming to a legal stop, the ball must be out of the player's hand before the pivot foot is raised off the floor.
g. If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.
i. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.

[pache100]

It doesn't change the fact that it's all still technically traveling. But only a purist can reasonably complain about it, because everyone in the NBA gets away with it.

Well DANG those "purist" referees. They call it on Tony Parker all the time (and he really does "travel" frequently), especially during the playoffs last year.

I think that's one thing that's so hard for players to adjust to. So many things are called differently during the playoffs than they are during the regulation season. The player who suffers from this more than any other, I think, is Shaq. They let him get away with all that shit during the year, and then, during the playoffs, they call it. I think the referees need to be more consistent. I think the whole referee system in the NBA needs to be overhauled.

[5ToolMan]

I didn't see Lindsey Hunter flop too much. I'd be upset if he did. Lindsey uses his feet and quick hands to play defense. If and when he flops, I'll be the first one to say it was a flop..

Psst ... all players who are said to flop on defense, use their quick feet and instinct to draw contact while they are in defensive position. I have seen Hunter "flop" as he went flying from contact several times over the years as a laker, and last year as a Piston. Sorry you are upset, now that you have the facts. :smokin


[/QUOTE]Who else on the Pistons flop? .[/QUOTE]

The Pistons, like the Spurs have several players who know how to play defense with their feet. Both teams are solid at drawing charges. The term flop, as applied by the average NBA fan, is very subjective. What is great position, and solid defense to fan of the defensive team, is flopping to the fan of the offensive team. My bet is that if you look at which teams draw the most charges in the NBA, the Spurs and Pistons would both be in the top third of the league. As to charge or flop, I would say the zebra has the better view. And sometimes they actually get it correct.

To answer your question, Ben, Hunter and McDyse will flop in the half court. And even Billips, Hamilton and Prince will flop to try to stop fast breaks.

[/QUOTE]Ben had one flop against a Tony Parker drive in last year's finals. But, as has intimated, Ben doesn't get that call if he just stands there and let's Tony bounce off of him. So, you play within the gamesmanship of the sport ... TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. Manu often takes it a step further.[/QUOTE]

How do you want your eggs? The Waffle was over easy. Sorry Piston fan, but gamesmanship for Big Bad Ben is gamesmanship for Manu and the rest of the NBA.

[/QUOTE]It's funny to me that most Spurs fans can't take honest, constructive criticism. To be honest, Manu Ginobili is one of my favorite players. I think he's amazing. But, I'm going to call a duck a duck. He's a flopper.[/QUOTE]

I don't have any problem with your opinion, even if it is misguided. Manu plays the game in a way that is unique to any player who has ever played the game. To put it bluntly, he has the body of a contortionist, and the balls of a bull. He will use his abilty to throw his body into positions where he is often bound to absorb great contact. As he twists his body into angles where he is off balance yet into control, he is prone to bounce off contact like a pin ball.

Perhaps a physics lesson might help. If you were standing or moving in a conventional manner, in balance with your weight distributed evenly on your feet and moving in one direction, you can blow by hard hits. However, stand on one foot with your weight shifting from side to side in unpredictible patterns. Now, the slightest touch in the right direction will send the biggest of you sprawling to the floor.

In Manu's warmup, he stands one foot at a time on a half inflated rubber ball, reaching around himself in a 360 degree pattern picking up and setting down cups from the floor. This type of drill and his natural ability allow him to succed playing in a controlled disorder, as some describe Manu's game. It also gives him the skill to make some of the freak shots Spur fans and fans of the art we call the NBA, love. His type of game also has him playing by design, off balance on many occasions. With a player playing off balance by design, when hit he will fly. It is not all about flopping. Much of it is about physics.

Manu plays the game

[samikeyp]

samikeyp,

I thought it's been well established that no one is saying Ginobili hurt Barbosa on purpose ... only that the intentional flopping was the cause of the injury.

http://p089.ezboard.com/finsidehoopsfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=62187.to pic&start=21&stop=38

[conqueso]

I think that's one thing that's so hard for players to adjust to. So many things are called differently during the playoffs than they are during the regulation season. The player who suffers from this more than any other, I think, is Shaq. They let him get away with all that shit during the year, and then, during the playoffs, they call it. I think the referees need to be more consistent. I think the whole referee system in the NBA needs to be overhauled.

You're right, the whole system does need to be overhauled. It's not just inconsistency that's a problem, though. It's the blatant favoritism that really upsets me.

When Jordan shoots a fadeaway, gets brushed on the arm after the release, and goes to the line for his bonus.

When Kobe gallops into a jump stop, takes another step, and dunks.

When Shaq throws his elbow into his defender's face, shuffles his feet, and dunks.

These are all plays that any other player would get called (or not called) for. In the NBA, the superstars are above the law, most likely because the players and the league can see a tangible benefit in letting them score a ton of points.

I don't think there's a league-wide conspiracy or anything, but I do think the refs in the NBA suck horribly when compared to their counterparts in the NFL, NHL, and MLB.

[nkdlunch]

Ummmm ... I'm not a Suns fan. I was giving an objective opinion. I was born and raised in Detroit and have been a Pistons fan my entire life. I am not venting over an injury of one of "MY" players.

Ben Wallace flopped in the finals as much as Manu. Could he have accidentally injured a Spur yeah, would that Spur player cry about it to the press FUCK NO!

[samikeyp]

Apparently to you saying "most people can't take honest constructive criticism" equates to condescending talk.

I would have to agree. Just because someone doesn't agree...doesn't mean they don't understand.

[pache100]

I don't have any problem with your opinion, even if it is misguided.

Neither did I. My problem comes when everyone else's opinion gets called into question because they disagree with him. Know what I mean?

[Supergirl]

In any game where you have "fouls" - that is freebie shots for players who receive unnecessary contact - you will have "flopping." It's just good strategy. If you want your team to win, you are going to try and exaggerate any contact that happens to try and make refs call a foul on the other guy. If you do it too much, refs will never believe you. If you don't do it enough, refs will never give you the calls.

All players take and receive fouls. All the smart ones "flop" a little. Manu takes as much contact as he gives out, if not more so. He's entitled to a little "flopping" to make sure he gets some calls.

It's a normal part of the game, guys. Get over it. It sucks when your player gets hurt. Does it matter if they get hurt in contact with another player or not?

[JamStone]

5ToolMan,

I don't know if you've read my other posts in this thread, but I have said I don't have much of a problem with players exaggerating to get a call, and that includes taking offensive charge fouls. What I do have a problem with is when a player is barely hit and falls straight to the ground as if he were punched.

I like my eggs sunny side up, clearly delineating the yolk from the white, to show the distinction between two different plays that you are trying to analogize. Ben taking a charge foul from Tony Parker is not the same thing as Manu NOT being hit at all by Amare Stoudemire and falling straight to the ground. My definition of flopping is different than mere gamesmanship and exaggerated movement. To me, flopping is getting a foul call on unjustifiable and falsely predicated contact (or non-contact if applicable). Pancakes!

I don't begrudge Manu when he overacts to get a foul call. But, I do think it's poor play for someone as good and talented as Manu to rely on faking getting hit to get an advantage.

I disagree that Ben ever flops, under my view of the word. Again, exaggeration is one thing, and I understand it's part of the gamesmanship of the sport. Pretending you get hit when you didn't or got that a brush of a finger could make you fall back 5 feet is another. With Lindsey Hunter, I'll give you, but I didn't see him flop much at all last year. And, your assessment on Dice, Hamilton, Billups, and Prince flopping is really unfounded. They don't flop. Manu flops. Allen Iverson flops. Vlade Divac used to flop. Billups, Prince, Hamilton, and Dice don't even take charges. They generally contest a shot or go for steals or blocks. I think you might have just mentioned them for argument sake, because that contention is really unfounded.

[pache100]

You're right, the whole system does need to be overhauled. It's not just inconsistency that's a problem, though. It's the blatant favoritism that really upsets me.

When Jordan shoots a fadeaway, gets brushed on the arm after the release, and goes to the line for his bonus.

When Kobe gallops into a jump stop, takes another step, and dunks.

When Shaq throws his elbow into his defender's face, shuffles his feet, and dunks.

These are all plays that any other player would get called (or not called) for. In the NBA, the superstars are above the law, most likely because the players and the league can see a tangible benefit in letting them score a ton of points.

I don't think there's a league-wide conspiracy or anything, but I do think the refs in the NBA suck horribly when compared to their counterparts in the NFL, NHL, and MLB.

All that's true! And, I do think the NBA referees suck. Another think that bothers me as much or more than the inconsistency (or maybe it's just another type of inconsistency), is the "payback" calls. Don't MAKE bad calls. But, if you do make bad calls, forget it...don't give in to the opposing team's coach or fans and make a "payback" call. Start with a clean slate after every call. But, since the players are doing their dead-level best to play the game, I think the referees owe it to everyone concerned to make clean, fair calls ALL THE TIME.

[JamStone]

Neither did I. My problem comes when everyone else's opinion gets called into question because they disagree with him. Know what I mean?


pache100,

Why in one post do you say you're "done with it" yet continue to make side comments like a little kid? Seriously, were you done with it or can you just not let it go?

I wasn't trying to call anyone's opinion into question. I merely stated an opinion that a lot of Spurs fans couldn't take honest criticism of their team, and I think it struck a nerve with you. Now, you want to keep adding in commentary about me. Seriously, are you "done with it?"

[JamStone]

Ben Wallace flopped in the finals as much as Manu. Could he have accidentally injured a Spur yeah, would that Spur player cry about it to the press FUCK NO!

I don't know if Ben flopped AS MUCH AS Manu, but he did it a couple of times. Unsuccessfully, I might add. Because Ben is "big" and "strong," he didn't get the benefit of the calls that Manu has traditionally gotten.

I don't think Spurs players would cry if they got hurt either.

Does that irrelevant contention make flopping ok? Not in my opinion.

[leemajors]

i think dasagana diop is destined to wind up on the suns, but only if d`antoni is still coach. he will then change his name to dasani diop. why is this thread 4 pages?

[samikeyp]

I wasn't trying to call anyone's opinion into question. I merely stated an opinion that a lot of Spurs fans couldn't take honest criticism of their team, and I think it struck a nerve with you. Now, you want to keep adding in commentary about me. Seriously, are you "done with it?"

I have an issue with this. I am not saying you can't lay down criticism but if someone doesn't agree with it...it doesn't mean they can't "take it" it just means they don't agree. Nothing wrong with that.

[Tek_XX]

Its true. No denying it. I am not harping on Manu because he is a Spur. I just dont like his game, is all. No bias. He travels....alot. But he does it with subtlety. He flops....alot. Almost every time he drives or shoots, the guy is flopping.

Ben DID flop when TP drove. Thats to get a call on a certain play. Manu flops nearly every time he is on the floor. Thats a big difference.

Ben flopped because refs wont call an offensive foul unless the defensive player goes down. If he didnt flop, and TP stopped on his chest, Ben may have been called! Thats the game, I guess. I dont like it, but it is what it is.

Again, there are alot of players who constantly travel (Rip Hamilton). I still dont like it. Thats all I am saying.

Manu doesn't travel, his moves can look awkward but that doesn't mean he takes extra steps.

And your hate for him is only becuase he kicks your guyses asses. Manu is awesome

[JamStone]

I have an issue with this. I am not saying you can't lay down criticism but if someone doesn't agree with it...it doesn't mean they can't "take it" it just means they don't agree. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree, samikeyp.

I didn't really specify or qualify when I said Spurs fans can't take honest criticism. That comment was mostly directed to comments by Spurs fans who make comments justifying flopping because a player gets hit a lot or saying "Fuck Barbosa!" or suggesting someone doesn't know the game of basketball if they don't agree with flopping ... and other unnecessary comments like that.

Disagreements are fine on a messageboard. But, dismissing the notion that flopping sucks with a "Fuck Barbosa" or the "Suns are pussies" type of comment is why I stated that most (I should have said "some") Spurs fans can't take honest criticism.

You're right that I would be hypocritical if I was just talking about disagreeing with my opinion. I should have been more clear.

[samikeyp]

Fair enough Jam. Well said.

Oh and

Manu never flops and Wallace is a *&#^%@ flopper all the time! AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
:lol
j/k

[Taladro]

I think that Barbosa’s comments speaks more of himself than of Manu.
That is pure whimper

[samikeyp]

I think we should all move on. Spurs and Kings tonight.

[Tek_XX]

Unfortunately flopping is part of the NBA, most players do it including Barbosa, the detroit pistons do it, and Manu does it. The refs are supposed to keep an eye on it, but we know they don't. Apparently Tony Parker is strong enough to knock Ben Wallace six rows into the stands. Point is i think Jamstone should get over it.

oh yeah FUCK BARBOSA

[Taladro]

And 5ToolMan got Manu's game right. And Conqueso too. And MaNuMaNia is ok too.
Go Spurs go.

[SequSpur]

Manu flops.

Barbosa needs to stfu.

End of story.

[pache100]

Manu flops.

Barbosa needs to stfu.

End of story.

:lol :rollin :lol :lmao

[JMarkJohns]

To all those who still don't have a clue because they allow their own bias to navigate their opinions, please, READ the following.



...Raja elbowed Manu, who attempted to draw a foul by exaggerating the contact and flopping. No, he didn't intentionally try to hurt Barbosa and Barbosa never said he did. Only that his flop was on purpose.

The cause was intentional, the effect an accident.

Exactly.

This is a Suns fans account that was claimed to be exactly right from your fearless unbiased leader.

Get over yourselves.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Barbosa is Brazilian, if you ask him where are Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction, he'll point his finger to Manu's house. Enough said.

[samikeyp]

So much for my "let's move on."

:lol

[JMarkJohns]

Barbosa is Brazilian, if you ask him where are Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction, he'll point his finger to Manu's house. Enough said.

rediculous. Absolutely rediculous.

I suppose that if Barbosa has such a strong bias against Argentinians, that since you're Argentinian, you have the same and equally as strong bias against Barbosa... and that's just the nationality hatred that I assume is inborn. Never you mind the acquired hatred you must have since it is a Suns player criticizing the unnecessary actions of your precious Spurs player.

See, when it's broken down, you must either accept both, or walk away from both. So, which is it?

Or perhaps by the same argument, if Barbosa hates Manu so much (as you have stated), that he'd finger his home as the home of Saddam, then it's not unreasonable, by the same logic, for Manu to intentionally hurdle himself into Barbosa's knee to cause the injury, both to harm Barbosa, but also save the game by taking out the one player that was absolutely torching them.

Are you comprehending the bullcrap your spreading?

It's so freakin' dumb.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

rediculous. Absolutely rediculous.

I suppose that if Barbosa has such a strong bias against Argentinians, that since you're Argentinian, you have the same and equally as strong bias against Barbosa... and that's just the nationality hatred that I assume is inborn. Never you mind the acquired hatred you must have since it is a Suns player criticizing the unnecessary actions of your precious Spurs player.

See, when it's broken down, you must either accept both, or walk away from both. So, which is it?

Or perhaps by the same argument, if Barbosa hates Manu so much (as you have stated), that he'd finger his home as the home of Saddam, then it's not unreasonable, by the same logic, for Manu to intentionally hurdle himself into Barbosa's knee to cause the injury, both to harm Barbosa, but also save the game by taking out the one player that was absolutely torching them.

Are you comprehending the bullcrap your spreading?

It's so freakin' dumb.

I have one word for you:

tongueincheek

:lol

[pache100]

I have one word for you:

tongueincheek

:lol

:lol

Some take things waaayyyy too seriously, huh?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

To all those who still don't have a clue because they allow their own bias to navigate their opinions, please, READ the following.



This is a Suns fans account that was claimed to be exactly right from your fearless unbiased leader.

Get over yourselves.
Are you serious?? fearless leader? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif Kori manages the forum, not our opinions

[Mavs<Spurs]

here's a pic. Take it anyway you want too but it looked like Manu was pushed

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3263/raja42xl.jpg

That looks an awful lot like what is called a smoking gun, doesn't it?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

rediculous. Absolutely rediculous.

I suppose that if Barbosa has such a strong bias against Argentinians, that since you're Argentinian, you have the same and equally as strong bias against Barbosa... and that's just the nationality hatred that I assume is inborn. Never you mind the acquired hatred you must have since it is a Suns player criticizing the unnecessary actions of your precious Spurs player.

See, when it's broken down, you must either accept both, or walk away from both. So, which is it?

Or perhaps by the same argument, if Barbosa hates Manu so much (as you have stated), that he'd finger his home as the home of Saddam, then it's not unreasonable, by the same logic, for Manu to intentionally hurdle himself into Barbosa's knee to cause the injury, both to harm Barbosa, but also save the game by taking out the one player that was absolutely torching them.

Are you comprehending the bullcrap your spreading?

It's so freakin' dumb.
you couldn't possibly take his post seriously! Even I got it, and I'm slow with internet sarcasm!

[SirChaz]

That looks an awful lot like what is called a smoking gun, doesn't it?


Bell stuck his arm out but did not put Ginobili on the floor.

Manu threw himself on the floor to try and draw a foul from Bell.


I am not buying that Manu is so weak as to be put on the floor by an arm extended.

[JMarkJohns]

No, I'm just showing him how dumb the argument is. It's not the first time he's brought it up. At first is was that both are from rival soccer countries. It got more and more rediculous, so I exaggerrated the humor, or flopped in Manu speak.

As for the pic. Considering Manu fell towards the baseline and an estimated 3/4 feet from where he stands in that pic, I don't think that shows anything other than Raja's elbow.

Nowhere in replays do you see a shove or push from Bell. The only thing you see is that elbow.

[nkdlunch]

:lmao these Suns fans make me laugh. Yes Manu's flops are a menace to the whole NBA! :rolleyes

grow up crybabies

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Hey, did anyone see Ginobli flop and hurt Barbosa the other night?

[sprrs]

No one complained because there was nothing to complain about.

Not only was there no intent, there was nothing unnecessary that was done that could have likely avoided the sprain.

Had Manu not flopped, the injury to Barbosa could have likely been avoided. I think that's the difference.

And had Bell not elbowed Manu (intentional or not) he wouldn't have flopped. We can go back and forth on this for a while.

[samikeyp]

I sense a thread lock coming. :)

[Kori Ellis]

I don't get what the big argument is in this thread. No one is saying that Manu injured Barbosa on purpose. But he does FLOP on purpose and then accidentally injured Barbosa. Bell didn't hit Manu hard enough for him to go flying into Barbosa -- Manu exaggerated the contact to try to get the foul call -- that's flopping. It wasn't intentional to hurt Barbosa, just unfortunate.

And for those Spurs fans calling Barbosa an "asshole" and "crybaby" or whatever. I'd probably reserve judgement without hearing the interview. Those comments could easily be taken out of context and the comments themselves aren't that bad. Manu DOES flop a lot (and yes, he gets fouled a lot too) for another player to say that doesn't mean they are an asshole.

By the way, what happened to that new rule his summer where refs were going to look a lot more closely at flopping and call fouls for flops or whatever?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I sense a thread lock coming. :) http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gifyou too?, and here I was thinking it was something I ate

[howard2]

ESPN.com
Nov 21, 2005
Link: ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2231863)

Barbosa out 2-3 weeks after Ginobili fell into his knee
Phoenix Suns guard Leandro Barbosa could miss up to three weeks with an injury to his left knee.

Barbosa has Grade 2 sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his left knee and is out two to three weeks, the team said Monday.

But while the diagnosis received a sigh of relief from the team, it offered little solace for Barbosa who believes the injury could have been avoided.

He was injured Saturday when Spurs guard Manu Ginobili fell into him. He did return to play in the second half of that game.

"Ginobili always likes to flop," Barbosa told The Arizona Republic. "Nobody even touched him.

"He jost flopped. That's why I feel sad to hurt myself like that," he added. "I wish I could have hurt myself in another way."

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni told the paper Ginobili "got tangled up a little bit" with Raja Bell when he stumbled backward, and "just to make his point, he was falling down."

"It was an accident," D'Antoni told the Republic.

Ginobili has been accused in the past of overacting to draw fouls; Suns forward Shawn Marion even joked about practicing his own acting skills during last season's Western Conference finals, the paper reported.

Barbosa was averaging 15.7 points in 25.8 minutes this season.

[samikeyp]

And for those Spurs fans calling Barbosa an "asshole" and "crybaby" or whatever. I'd probably reserve judgement without hearing the interview. Those comments could easily be taken out of context and the comments themselves aren't that bad. Manu DOES flop a lot (and yes, he gets fouled a lot too) for another player to say that doesn't mean they are an asshole.

Actually I believe it was "Fuck Barbosa" :lol


By the way, what happened to that new rule his summer where refs were going to look a lot more closely at flopping and call fouls for flops or whatever?

Good point...guess they decided to look but not make calls.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

dasagana diop

[MaNuMaNiAc]

ESPN.com
Nov 21, 2005
Link: ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2231863)

Barbosa out 2-3 weeks after Ginobili fell into his knee
Phoenix Suns guard Leandro Barbosa could miss up to three weeks with an injury to his left knee.

Barbosa has Grade 2 sprain of the medial collateral ligament in his left knee and is out two to three weeks, the team said Monday.

But while the diagnosis received a sigh of relief from the team, it offered little solace for Barbosa who believes the injury could have been avoided.

He was injured Saturday when Spurs guard Manu Ginobili fell into him. He did return to play in the second half of that game.

"Ginobili always likes to flop," Barbosa told The Arizona Republic. "Nobody even touched him.

"He jost flopped. That's why I feel sad to hurt myself like that," he added. "I wish I could have hurt myself in another way."

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni told the paper Ginobili "got tangled up a little bit" with Raja Bell when he stumbled backward, and "just to make his point, he was falling down."

"It was an accident," D'Antoni told the Republic.

Ginobili has been accused in the past of overacting to draw fouls; Suns forward Shawn Marion even joked about practicing his own acting skills during last season's Western Conference finals, the paper reported.

Barbosa was averaging 15.7 points in 25.8 minutes this season.
Even out of context, what he said is childish! "I wish I could have hurt myself in another way"???? WHAT THE FUCK!??

[Kori Ellis]

Even out of context, what he said is childish! "I wish I could have hurt myself in another way"???? WHAT THE FUCK!??

:rolleyes

Okay :lol

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I would call Manu out on this one, because flopping is pussy, but the fact is Manu does get fouled, and does take a beating, and he will not flop if the refs are giving him the whistle.

If they're not, he will flop as the game goes on...this seems acceptable to me.

[SirChaz]

Yes Manu's flops are a menace to the whole NBA! :rolleyes


Well not the whole NBA at once. Just those players in close proximity. :lol

[Brutalis]

It is amazing how weak some NBA players are. Barbosa's crying and blaming Manu for his injury that was a result of incidental contact places him in the same lack of class as Allen and Carter. These little girls need to learn to nut it up, understand it is a man's game and just play ball. :smokin
Pretty much. Complaining gets people nowhere.

[Brutalis]

Barbosa is Brazilian, if you ask him where are Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction, he'll point his finger to Manu's house. Enough said.
Great point.

[JMarkJohns]

Even out of context, what he said is childish! "I wish I could have hurt myself in another way"???? WHAT THE FUCK!??

He doesn't speak English real well. OK? Moron.

So, now it's all right to mock a player who's sad that his injury occured in such an unnecessary manner? That's all he's trying to say. He wish his injury had happened another way. Something other than a flopping player nearly blowing out his knee.

Again, you start with the high and mighty bullshit.

He's been learning the English language for just over two years now.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

He doesn't speak English real well. OK? Moron.

So, now it's all right to mock a player who's sad that his injury occured in such an unnecessary manner? That's all he's trying to say. He wish his injury had happened another way. Something other than a flopping player nearly blowing out his knee.

Again, you start with the high and mighty bullshit.

He's been learning the English language for just over two years now.
Who the fuck you calling a moron, jackass

[nkdlunch]

He doesn't speak English real well. OK? Moron.

So, now it's all right to mock a player who's sad that his injury occured in such an unnecessary manner? That's all he's trying to say. He wish his injury had happened another way. Something other than a flopping player nearly blowing out his knee.

Again, you start with the high and mighty bullshit.

He's been learning the English language for just over two years now.

:lol U're full of shit. Brazilian newspapers quoted him word for word also!! :lol


:owned

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

I think that Barbosa’s comments speaks more of himself than of Manu.
That is pure whimper


yeh but if a Spurs player gets injured coz of someone else then they should be suspended :rolleyes so many homers on this board its ridiculous

[samikeyp]

yeah...just like Nugget fan if Melo doesn't make the all-star team. Homer. :p

[ALVAREZ6]

yeh but if a Spurs player gets injured coz of someone else then they should be suspended :rolleyes so many homers on this board its ridiculous
Right, but there isn't a single Suns homer...





What the fuck do you expect, to get to this site you typed: www.SPURStalk.com

[nkdlunch]

'O Ginobili adora cair para trás. Ninguém sequer tocou nele, e ele apenas caiu. Por isso estou triste em me lesionar assim. Preferia ter me machucado de outra forma', desabafou Leandrinho, contrariando até mesmo o técnico dos Suns, Mike D’Antoni, que inocentou o argentino de qualquer culpa.
quote from gazetaesportiva.com

my translation:
"Ginobili loves to flop. Nobody even touched him, he just fell. That's why I'm sad I'm hurt, I would have prefered being injured another way." Leandrinho said, opposing his own coach, Mike D'Antoni who absolved the argentine of any fault.

[samikeyp]

Technically Alvarez, Nuggets-Fan is a Denver homer. :lol

[cheguevara]

'O Ginobili adora cair para trás. Ninguém sequer tocou nele, e ele apenas caiu. Por isso estou triste em me lesionar assim. Preferia ter me machucado de outra forma', desabafou Leandrinho, contrariando até mesmo o técnico dos Suns, Mike D’Antoni, que inocentou o argentino de qualquer culpa.
quote from gazetaesportiva.com

my translation:
"Ginobili loves to flop. Nobody even touched him, he just fell. That's why I'm sad I'm hurt, I would have prefered being injured another way." Leandrinho said, opposing his own coach, Mike D'Antoni who absolved the argentine of any fault.


that's from a Brazilian paper?? sounds to me even Brazilian press thinks Barbossa was out of line

[Kori Ellis]

:lol U're full of shit. Brazilian newspapers quoted him word for word also!! :lol


:owned

But didn't the Brazilian paper translate what he said in English into Portuguese? That still doesn't mean he speak good English.

Anyway, my point of taking it out of context is like because reporters can lead a player into saying anything.

For example:

Reporter: "Do you think think this was a one time incident or does Manu flop all the time?"

Barbosa: "He flops all the time."

I'm not saying that this is what happened, I'm just saying that it's pretty harsh to say "Fuck Barbosa" "asshole" and all the other crap that's in this thread. The guy has been playing extremely well and he's just venting about getting hurt. Nowhere does he say that he thinks it was malicious or intentional.

[ALVAREZ6]

Technically Alvarez, Nuggets-Fan is a Denver homer. :lol
:lol

My bad....

Shit I didn't even bother looking at the username, I just assumed it was a Suns fan....




Well in that case,


Right, but there isn't a single Nuggets homer...

[samikeyp]

Better. :)

So I am guessing Brazilians don't like Argentines or vice versa?

[Kori Ellis]

By the way, D'Antoni basically said that Manu flopped but hurt Barbosa accidentally. That's the same thing everyone else has been saying, I think.

"... just to make his point, he was falling down. It was an accident."

[samikeyp]

at this point I am not sure what is being said. Apparently, Manu Ginobili tried to kill Leandro Barbosa and now the Brazilian Navy is steaming toward Bahia Blanca. :p

[BigVee]

All six pages of this are ridiculous. Guys get hurt all the time, landing on a foot, bumping knees, stepping wrong. And in most cases if someone on the other team hadn't been where they were or did what they did that player would not of been hurt. Would Nene have jammed his knee if TD didn't have his hand on his hip? Shit happens and unless it is purposeful, that is the way it goes. Unfortunate, but part of the contact of the sport. Manu has had deliberate shots taken at him that could have resulted in injury, i.e. playoffs v. Denver and Seattle. This incident was an accident, regardless of how it occurred. Time to move on.

[JMarkJohns]

Who the fuck you calling a moron, jackass

If you don't know by know, well then...

[NashtoAmare]

Barbosa is a starter right now..or atleast was. He's no scrub...

[JMarkJohns]

barbosa shut yer mouth punk. fucking scrub. go wash nash's shorts.

That scrub lit yer ass a blaze in just 20 short minutes. That scrub was the Suns leading scorer for the previous four games, averaging 19 points in 25 minutes of play.

Why don't you go pretend to know something about basketball by being a bandwagon Spurs fan, ya dope.

And save yourself the time of replying.

I know, I know... I'm an effin' Suns fan who can't know nothing because the Suns always lose to the Spurs and :blah :blah :blah

[spurschick]

Manu was the second gunmen on the grassy knoll. He also killed Roger Rabbit and Jimmy Hoffa.

[Tek_XX]

I think it's fair to say that NBA refs reward flopping. And thus many players flop including whiny bitch barbosa

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That scrub lit yer ass a blaze in just 20 short minutes.

Tell me, did that scrub's team win or lose?

Thanks for playing.

[Wizinator]

I think it's fair to say that NBA refs reward flopping. And thus many players flop including whiny bitch barbosa

I don't like flopping in general but I like it a whole lot less when the other team's player is the one doing it. Last year Steve Nash came into contact with Reggie Evans when we were playing the Sonics. The 6'8", 245# Evans jumped up and landed on his back and Nash was called for a foul. Evans made Nash look like a sumo wrestler.

Leandro has struggled to live up to expectations since we drafted him with a pick we got from the Spurs almost 3 years ago. Finally, this season, he was starting to break through and he had just had the best 1/2 of basketball in his NBA career. The Suns had the lead, largely because of his efforts, and not much else had gone right for Phoenix since facing the Spurs in the WCF. I'm sure everyone was just really disappointed.

Manu is an easy player to hate when he is on the Spurs because he makes everyone else look like they don't know how to play defense, and he flops. But NO ONE would turn down the chance to have him on their team. I thought the way the Sonics and Nuggets defended, (mugged) him was disgusting. I'd rather have floppery than thuggism.

Thanks for letting me post. The Spurs are a real class organization and this board seems to have a lot of thoughtful posters. If you want to see a messed up board, check out the Mavs forum. Michael

[5ToolMan]

5ToolMan,

I don't know if you've read my other posts in this thread, but I have said I don't have much of a problem with players exaggerating to get a call, and that includes taking offensive charge fouls. What I do have a problem with is when a player is barely hit and falls straight to the ground as if he were punched.

I like my eggs sunny side up, clearly delineating the yolk from the white, to show the distinction between two different plays that you are trying to analogize. Ben taking a charge foul from Tony Parker is not the same thing as Manu NOT being hit at all by Amare Stoudemire and falling straight to the ground. My definition of flopping is different than mere gamesmanship and exaggerated movement. To me, flopping is getting a foul call on unjustifiable and falsely predicated contact (or non-contact if applicable). Pancakes!

I don't begrudge Manu when he overacts to get a foul call. But, I do think it's poor play for someone as good and talented as Manu to rely on faking getting hit to get an advantage.

I disagree that Ben ever flops, under my view of the word. Again, exaggeration is one thing, and I understand it's part of the gamesmanship of the sport. Pretending you get hit when you didn't or got that a brush of a finger could make you fall back 5 feet is another. With Lindsey Hunter, I'll give you, but I didn't see him flop much at all last year. And, your assessment on Dice, Hamilton, Billups, and Prince flopping is really unfounded. They don't flop. Manu flops. Allen Iverson flops. Vlade Divac used to flop. Billups, Prince, Hamilton, and Dice don't even take charges. They generally contest a shot or go for steals or blocks. I think you might have just mentioned them for argument sake, because that contention is really unfounded.

Since you have a hard time being subjective, I will point out the many flops that Pistons perform. Oh that is right, in their case it is allowed gamesmanship. LOL!

Camera angles and film speed can show very different reality of the same action. On the move you say Manu flopped with no contact, my slow motion view filmed from a different angle than the press force fed the masses shows direct contact to the head. I don't know if Manu flopped with the hit, but in my view the hit was clear. And from a bull like Amare, just a light clip can knock down a train.

I noticed you, and none other parroting how Manu flops had any responce to my description of the contortionist style that Manu plays. A style that im my view, causes him to take huge spills with what appears to be light contact to the casual viewer.

[SequSpur]

manu is a flopper, the spurs won, barbosa will be alright someday. wgaf. end of discussion.

[SouthernFried]

The fact that Manu takes a lot of hits has nothing to do with him flopping. Most of his flopping occurs on the defensive side of the ball.

This quote alone, makes this thread pointless.

The fact Manu takes a lotta hits has nothing to do with him flopping?? Most of his flopping occurs on defense???

Sorry man, you have absolutely no clue.

No offense ;)

Oh, and not only did Manu get that elbow, but that elbow was swung around, throwing Manu back under the basket.

Silly thread.

[JMarkJohns]

Tell me, did that scrub's team win or lose?

Thanks for playing.

You are so stupid it's not even funny. That scrub, before he was injured, scored 14 points en route to a Phoenix lead at the half.

You can talk about the game and that's fine. No one is saying that Barbosa would have guided the Suns to the win.

But for a player to score 14 in just 20 minutes vs. the almighty Spurs defense, it's pretty ignorant for said player to be repeatedly called a scrub.

Thanks for playing? Huh? :rolleyes

LMAO at you lameness.

You, my goat fucking Spurs fan, are the scrub of this board.

Perhaps, more like a plague.

Maybe next time Manu flops, he falls right into little Timmy's knee?! Now that would be classic!

[SequSpur]

Barbosa is good.

This is a Spurs board, we don't care about the suns. I hope they all go on the IR.

Later.

[JMarkJohns]

Barbosa is good.

This is a Spurs board, we don't care about the suns. I hope they all go on the IR.

Later.

BULLSHIT! Then why are all these threads on the Suns or related to the Suns started by all the Spurs fans? For us rival fans who browse Spurs forums for our Suns content?! LMAO....


I'll stop when other stop posting flat-out BS. Bein' that Mrs. Ellis is of like opinion to me, I consider it my privelage to put those who'd rather be ignorant and biased than informed and classy in their place.

As of now, I've never done a thing to be banned and until I am, yer stuck with me. Perhaps it was being called "fuck hole" upon my first few posts here on a misunderstanding by some lame Spurs fan that has me all up in arms. Maybe it's just all the love I receive.

Either way, I love it here and am thinking of puttin' down roots!

I'll try my best to contribute as necessary.

Don't want me to post? Then it's really quite simple.

Don't unnecessarily or unjustly trash other teams, other teams players or other teams fans.

I understand this is a Spurs forum... but that doesn't give ignorance a license to pollute such a quality site.

[SequSpur]

BULLSHIT! Then why are all these threads on the Suns or related to the Suns started by all the Spurs fans? For us rival fans who browse Spurs forums for our Suns content?! LMAO....


I'll stop when other stop posting flat-out BS. Bein' that Mrs. Ellis is of like opinion to me, I consider it my privelage to put those who'd rather be ignorant and biased than informed and classy in their place.

As of now, I've never done a thing to be banned and until I am, yer stuck with me. Perhaps it was being called "fuck hole" upon my first few posts here on a misunderstanding by some lame Spurs fan that has me all up in arms. Maybe it's just all the love I receive.

Either way, I love it here and am thinking of puttin' down roots!

I'll try my best to contribute as necessary.

Don't want me to post? Then it's really quite simple.

Don't unnecessarily or unjustly trash other teams, other teams players or other teams fans.

I understand this is a Spurs forum... but that doesn't give ignorance a license to pollute such a quality site.

I didn't ask you stop, i just said we don't care about the suns and me personally could care less if they all go on the IR.

This is a Spurs site sir. Therefore, the grammar usage is to call the other team losers, scrubs, doormats, whatever.

If you don't like it then go somewhere else, because this forum is a spurs forum.

Please don't call spurs fans...... lame spurs fans, because there is no such animal.

Now for the record, without Amare, your team is up the creek without a paddle or a life vest. That enables the Suns to receive the glamorous title of Scrubs.

Don't like it, to bad... you shoulda re-signed your players that you had last year.

The Suns are through.

Later Sir.

:flipoff

:elephant

[JMarkJohns]

I didn't ask you stop, i just said we don't care about the suns and me personally could care less if they all go on the IR.

This is a Spurs site sir. Therefore, the grammar usage is to call the other team losers, scrubs, doormats, whatever.

If you don't like it then go somewhere else, because this forum is a spurs forum.

Please don't call spurs fans...... lame spurs fans, because there is no such animal.

Now for the record, without Amare, your team is up the creek without a paddle or a life vest. That enables the Suns to receive the glamorous title of Scrubs.

Don't like it, to bad... you shoulda re-signed your players that you had last year.

The Suns are through.

Later Sir.

:flipoff

:elephant


LMAO... maybe you shouldn't feed tha animals. Or at least stop giving me both ammo and a reason to continue posting here.

All you can do is call names. I'm trembling.

Don't like me, put me on your ignore list.

Yeah, Suns are through :blah :blah :blah

Without Amare, the Suns have a 2-OT loss to the Mavs, a final minute loss to the Pistons and a final minute loss to the Spurs. Yes, they are three losses, but for a team missing it's best player, that's hardly a poor showing. One shot in each game and the Suns are 7-2. Woulda, coulda, shoulda and all aside, however, the Suns will be fine so long as Amare returns to health. Maybe not this year, but they have seven 1st rounders coming in the next four years, not to mention fine prospects in Barbosa, Diaw and Jones. Throw in Marion and Bell and all that's needed is a big and a PG. Hopefully Milos Vujanic can become that PG and a good big can be had threw the draft.

I don't intend to rock the boat.

Maybe you should realize, that despite the Spurs success, at the end of the day, you're still just a fan that cheered for them and not an actual, integral part of the team.

It's just a game, right fellas?!

[SequSpur]

I disagree. The Suns will always be a good organization that wins in the regular season and loses in the playoffs. But keep your hopes up, that's what fans are for, donating time, money, and loyalty.

At the end of the day, the Suns were eliminated by the Spurs like they weren't even there. As a fan of a team with three championships, you're right, I am just a fan, a fan of the NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs.

Besides aren't your #1s protected and last time I checked there isn't anything coming into the NBA for awhile that would help you get past Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas or the Clippers. :lol

Have fun Suns fan. Welcome to the forum of the NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs.

[JMarkJohns]

Spurs won the series 4-1, but every game was close and decided in the final quarter, if not final minutes.

I won't make excuses, so I'll just leave things at, yep, you won and ya earned it.

[SequSpur]

A championship is earned and is never guaranteed. It's amazing that the Spurs have won three, because I remember 99 when they won their first, it was the best moment ever, but then it happened two more times. Who knows what or when it will happen again, but those were the best moments I have had as a fan. There are a few teams I would share that joy with but definitely not a Suns fan.

I apologize.

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns get Atlanta's pick either this year (lottory protected), next year (top-3 protected) or in 2008 (unprotected).

Wide concencious is that it'll come in 2007, the first year the infamous 2006 class is eligable for the draft. Greg Oden #1, with plenty of talent to round out the top-10, including several quality bigs.

[JMarkJohns]

A championship is earned and is never guaranteed. It's amazing that the Spurs have won three, because I remember 99 when they won their first, it was the best moment ever, but then it happened two more times. Who knows what or when it will happen again, but those were the best moments I have had as a fan. There are a few teams I would share that joy with but definitely not a Suns fan.

I apologize.

I'll remember you said that.

The Suns are hardly the Lakers.

[SequSpur]

maybe you can trade some of those picks and a few of those pickups for Garnett. Then you would be in the picture again.

[JMarkJohns]

That's been talked about, but I'm not sure two players like Garnett and Amare can co-exist. They already have a rivalry twixt them and both want to be "The Man".

It would be beautiful... Marion, Thomas and two or three picks for Garnett and a bad contract?!

I don't know. I think Amare and Garnett would kill each other.

[SequSpur]

As long as they can play defense, they'll be fine. Defense wins championships, does D antoni know anything about defense? I am not convinced, he seems more of a friend to the players than an actual coach. He seems to get caught up in the smacktalking which is not his place. Is that a good assessment?

[JMarkJohns]

Defense is only an obstacle in the way of more and more points :rolleyes

I like physical play. Just not unnecessary flopping, though again, with Manu it's a skill.

I wish the Suns had a bruiser. I'm hoping for Sheldon Williams of Duke with either their pick or the potential Laker's pick (top-10 protected).

[SequSpur]

Um, the Spurs are not physical, they just contest every shot. Flopping is an NBA problem, not a Manu problem. Nash is a flopper too.

I thought the NBA was working on this stuff?

As for Manu, dude has won on every level and when he is not throwing the ball to the fans in the third row is usually pretty unstoppable. I think his career high was against the Suns in their own house. Is that correct?

Seems to me like your just a little bitter. Oh and btw, Barbosa is not very good, he might look good making layups, but under pressure, he is soft.

[SequSpur]

this thread just prove how stupid spursfans are. manu flops period. thats all he does. dont even try to defend it by saying all nba players flop. no they dont. they take charges by having their feet set. manu on the other hand exagerates on every play as if iam watching the matrix.


:lol

[JMarkJohns]

Um, the Spurs are not physical, they just contest every shot. Flopping is an NBA problem, not a Manu problem. Nash is a flopper too.

I thought the NBA was working on this stuff?

As for Manu, dude has won on every level and when he is not throwing the ball to the fans in the third row is usually pretty unstoppable. I think his career high was against the Suns in their own house. Is that correct?

Seems to me like your just a little bitter. Oh and btw, Barbosa is not very good, he might look good making layups, but under pressure, he is soft.

Huh?

BTW, Barbosa has a better +/- than Nash this season in the fourth quarter.

He also led Brazil to the Fiba Americas Championship.

He's unproven, if anything.

I'm hardly bitter, just annoyed. I couldn't care less, except for all the "fuck Barbosa... he's a whiny bitch" talk.

And I love watching Manu play. He's a cold-blooded killer and yes, his career high came in Phoenix in that classic overtime game.

If he didn't flop so much, he'd be up there with Wade, Bibby and Frye as my favorite non-Suns players.

[5ToolMan]

So, now it's all right to mock a player who's sad that his injury occured in such an unnecessary manner? That's all he's trying to say. He wish his injury had happened another way. Something other than a flopping player nearly blowing out his knee.

It is clear you and Barbosa are either very slow, or just bitter enough to cloud your views. The injury was caused because in the game of hoops, physical play creates contact. I know that is new concept for you in Suns land, at least on the defensive end. But the extended arm and contact from your teams hired thug started the sequence of events that resulted in Barbosa's injury. I know it is tough ... for some ... but you both need to be men and just walk away.

[5ToolMan]

BULLSHIT! Then why are all these threads on the Suns or related to the Suns started by all the Spurs fans? For us rival fans who browse Spurs forums for our Suns content?! LMAO....


I'll stop when other stop posting flat-out BS. Bein' that Mrs. Ellis is of like opinion to me, I consider it my privelage to put those who'd rather be ignorant and biased than informed and classy in their place.

As of now, I've never done a thing to be banned and until I am, yer stuck with me. Perhaps it was being called "fuck hole" upon my first few posts here on a misunderstanding by some lame Spurs fan that has me all up in arms. Maybe it's just all the love I receive.

Either way, I love it here and am thinking of puttin' down roots!

I'll try my best to contribute as necessary.

Don't want me to post? Then it's really quite simple.

Don't unnecessarily or unjustly trash other teams, other teams players or other teams fans.

I understand this is a Spurs forum... but that doesn't give ignorance a license to pollute such a quality site.

Psst ... you don't score many debating points or friends; spinning, stomping and cursing.

[5ToolMan]

this thread just prove how stupid spursfans are. manu flops period. thats all he does. dont even try to defend it by saying all nba players flop. no they dont. they take charges by having their feet set. manu on the other hand exagerates on every play as if iam watching the matrix.

You are watching the Matrix, stupid. The fact that you don't understand the physics of how Manu plays, demonstrates your total ignorance of the matter.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

BULLSHIT! Then why are all these threads on the Suns or related to the Suns started by all the Spurs fans? For us rival fans who browse Spurs forums for our Suns content?! LMAO....


I'll stop when other stop posting flat-out BS. Bein' that Mrs. Ellis is of like opinion to me, I consider it my privelage to put those who'd rather be ignorant and biased than informed and classy in their place.

As of now, I've never done a thing to be banned and until I am, yer stuck with me. Perhaps it was being called "fuck hole" upon my first few posts here on a misunderstanding by some lame Spurs fan that has me all up in arms. Maybe it's just all the love I receive.

Either way, I love it here and am thinking of puttin' down roots!

I'll try my best to contribute as necessary.

Don't want me to post? Then it's really quite simple.

Don't unnecessarily or unjustly trash other teams, other teams players or other teams fans.

I understand this is a Spurs forum... but that doesn't give ignorance a license to pollute such a quality site.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif What a dick!

[dmac]

He is a total actor, and constantly travels.

Good player though.

there's no traveling in the NBA. :lol

[JMarkJohns]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif What a dick!

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Manu does flop. But he plays for the my team, so I'm okay with it.

[samikeyp]

this thread just prove how stupid spursfans are. manu flops period. thats all he does. dont even try to defend it by saying all nba players flop. no they dont. they take charges by having their feet set. manu on the other hand exagerates on every play as if iam watching the matrix

Guess that includes you.

[leemajors]

But for a player to score 14 in just 20 minutes vs. the almighty Spurs defense, it's pretty ignorant for said player to be repeatedly called a scrub.
lots of scrubs score 10+ points in 20 mins vs the spurs early in the season. i.e. devin harris. hell that scrub amare scored 30+ in a series vs the spurs in the playoffs. don't take the word scrub too seriously, scrub.

[ALVAREZ6]

Perhaps it was being called "fuck hole" upon my first few posts here on a misunderstanding by some lame Spurs fan that has me all up in arms. .
:lol




I believe that was me...damn that was a while ago.

[Bloodline666]

Also, where did whining about Bruce Bowen get Carter, Finley and others? A free copy of the 2005 NBA Champions DVD.
Yeah, I hear ya. I always got pissed as soon as I started hearing people like Vince Carter and Ray Allen bitchin' about Bruce Bowen and how dirty of a player he is. It's called DEFENSE! The best thing to do about it is learn how to shoot over Bruce Bowen, or, if they wanna get even, learn how to guard HIM, because as we saw time and time again, just whining about it gets you nowhere.

By the way, two people Bowen has gotten into fights with over that kind of shit are now his teammates (and coincidentally, both returned from injury just recently).

[5ToolMan]

By the way, two people Bowen has gotten into fights with over that kind of shit are now his teammates (and coincidentally, both returned from injury just recently).

I guess Bruce can't help himself. He is always jacking up offensive players, even in practice. :smokin

[spurschick]

http://www.spurschick.com/flopyou.jpg

As long as this topic keeps resurfacing, so will this graphic.

[JMarkJohns]

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4784/flopyoucopy4iy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Need help with Photoshop? Can't barely read the last sentence.

Anyway, if you come here to cry about Manu flopping, we heard that one before. So just try to find some Suns forum and there you can all cry together.

[JMarkJohns]

It was designed that way. Make you Spurs fans work at reading. Most will skip over the last sentance anyways.

I didn't start this thread, nor the other thread about Manu flopping into Ginobili.

If you no longer want to talk about it, then just let the thread die. Until then, I'll always be posting in it.

[Obstructed_View]

Manu sucks.

[JMarkJohns]

Manu sucks.

No he doesn't! :lol

[LilMissSPURfect]

haters are blind and ignorant! get rid of your team colored shades and the truth will be told!!!!!

given the opportunity...everyone FLOPS! :elephant :elephant

Ginobili is just being singled out coz he's not MADE in the USA!

just like foreign made goods....everyone is quick to judge......

[LilMissSPURfect]

Manu sucks.

sucks balls like a vaccum.......just like last year did anyone catch that SNEAL/STOCK he had against the same SAC town team?

MANU LEADS THE LEAGUE IN THE SNEALS CATEGORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DesiSpur_21]

It was designed that way. Make you Spurs fans work at reading. Most will skip over the last sentance anyways.

I didn't start this thread, nor the other thread about Manu flopping into Ginobili.

If you no longer want to talk about it, then just let the thread die. Until then, I'll always be posting in it.

I like your posts on other topics but now you just sound like a jack... (oh yeah esp. after your photoshop pic)

[JMarkJohns]

would that be jackass? I don't know any jacks that sound like me...

Look. I'll walk away. Obviously some here can't see things for what they are. I won't convince them. But some have acknowledged, if not even agreed with my take. I'll continue to post as such for them.

I'm not intending to be a jackass. But I'm not going to waver on my opinion simply because I'm a "guest" of a Spurs board. That does noone a service. I'll continue to state my opinion, just as I expect some here to call me names because of it.

I didn't start these threads and have even stated repeatedly that Manu did not intend to hurt Barbosa. But he did flop. Anyone can see it. Anyone, that is, who isn't blinded by the glare of those shimmering spurs.

I appreciate this board. I appreciate those who've acknowledged my valid points both in public and through PM.

If you don't like my opinions, put me on ignore. However, I have a feeling you'll click that little "view" button even if...

I'm not saying Manu sucks. reread my posts here. They start out very civilized. I didn't go on the defensive until moronic and bias-fed Spurs homers started their "fuck Barbosa, he's a commy and a Brazilian, but worst off he's a Sun" talk while at the same time defending Manu at every turn.

Again, I'll gladly walk away from this thread, so long as everyone else does.

I won't, however, allow unnecessary and unwarrented shots to be taken at Barbosa's expense, simply because he's a Suns player.

Don't like it? Don't read it. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head. You click and read my drivvle out of your own free will.

[LilMissSPURfect]

ohhhhhhh wtf....let's just go out on a limb here and just get it out in the open once and for all..........

SUNS suck!!!!!!!!!

[JMarkJohns]

ohhhhhhh wtf....let's just go out on a limb here and just get it out in the open once and for all..........

SUNS suck!!!!!!!!!

Well, then, fair is fair... Pops had to send in his resident, flopping thug to kamakazi his opponants biggest threat to take him out of the game in order to ensure a win vs. the very team that you know say sucks.

Lie for a lie, tit for tat...

Keep 'em coming, folks.


Also, careful where you climb. Fat, ugly bitches don't typically do well venturing out on limbs that don't have much support.

[LilMissSPURfect]

whatever works i guess.....a win is a win :spin :spin :spin

[SequSpur]

Hey welcome back sun's fan.

Someone is Pming you? how lame is that?

Dude, as long as you don't break the commandments of the Church of Manu, you have nothing to worry about bro.

I learned that lesson the hard way.