HollyHills Development Purchases Historic Red Berry Mansion

[TheWriter]

HollyHills Development Purchases Historic Red Berry Mansion

Development Company also Purchases 166,000 square-feet Industrial Building and Additional 83 Acres from Prominent San Antonio Businessman

San Antonio, TX. On the eve of Tuesday's press conference at which HollyHills Development will unveil it's visions for the creation of a 1,000 acre Sports & Entertainment District on San Antonio's Eastside; a vision which includes a Pro Football Stadium, Pro Baseball Stadium, Pro Basketball (Current SBC Center), Indy/NASCAR Racing and resort hotel and golf course and vacation shares, HollyHills announced it had reached agreement with prominent San Antonio businessman Bill Tidwell to purchase the historic Red Berry Mansion and the adjacent 83 acres which Tidwell owns.

Additionally, HollyHills agreed to purchase from Tidwell a 166,000 square-foot industrial storage facility which sits on seven-and-a-half acres on San Antonio's Eastside.

"Today's acquisitions by HollyHills Development, on the eve of our (HollyHills) press conference tomorrow, moves our company's Chairman Dan Bailey one step closer to making his vision for San Antonio's Eastside more of a possibility," stated HollyHills President & CEO Joseph Heitzler. "Without the relationship between the Baileys and Mr. Tidwell, this agreement would have never come to fruition," Heitzler added.

Bill Tidwell went on to state, "I can understand and appreciate the Bailey's Eastside vision, and through this agreement, I feel as though my wife and I can fully contribute to this vision."

The deal between HollyHills and Mr. Tidwell was finalized Sunday afternoon at the San Antonio home of HollyHills Chairman Dan Bailey and Vice Chairman Marlene Bailey.

"It will be incumbent upon HollyHills to be good stewards of the historic Red Berry Mansion. Mr. Tidwell invested great sums of dollars in renovating the facility and preserving its rich history. The Mansion, along with the purchase of 83 acres and the industrial facility, will be key components of the vision HollyHills will present on Tuesday. I am positive that the Baileys will not only compliment this traditional historical mansion, but even take it to new heights," Heitzler added.

Tuesday's press conference is scheduled for 2:00pm at the Red Berry Mansion.

Release Date: 11/21/2005

http://www.hollyhillsgroup.com/press/?section=6

[ObiwanGinobili]

Sorry I don;t know much about he RedBarry mansion......

also: what about the neighborhoods over there that will have to deal with all the increased traffic and noise?? Or od you predict they will be screwed since they are low-income?

[boutons]

So HH is going to pave over the golf course and the orchard?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=san+antonio,+tx&ll=29.429076,-98.429754&spn=0.012961,0.028213&t=k&hl=en

Sounds like "in filling" development that replaces a lot of greenery with noise and pollution. The people who live in the immediate area are already wedged tighly between IH35 and Highway 90, so they're used to noise and traffic.

[TheTruth]

what a bad place for an NFL stadium.

i'll still go.

[SA210]

I like the idea, it's very ambitious and I like ambitious. But not by kicking people out of their homes. I hope that's not what they are going to try to do.

[boutons]

Except for what looks like a trailer park and the small housing tract to the north of the area along Gembler road, there aren't many residence in that area.

[TheWriter]

So HH is going to pave over the golf course and the orchard?

Nope.

Willows Springs Golf course will be part of the development as part of a resort hotels.

[Bill Lumbergh]

I thought the NFL made it abundantly clear S.A. will never see a NFL franchise. I would love a NFL team but I don't get it wouldn't this just be another Alamodome fiasco.

[TheWriter]

I thought the NFL made it abundantly clear S.A. will never see a NFL franchise. I would love a NFL team but I don't get it wouldn't this just be another Alamodome fiasco.

Not with a new state of the art stadium.

The NFL wants no part of SA because we [as of now] do not have an NFL ready stadium.

But the biggest factor in the NFL not wanting to give SA an expansion team was because LA didn't have one.

The NFL and LA have already come to their agreement, LA is getting a team. Whether by relocation or expansion.

That tears down the wall. An new NFL stadium gets us over the debris.

[gameFACE]

I really don't like the idea of one large all encompasing sports complex. It reaks of limited shelf life. But if H2 can magically find a way to build a stadium with private money - more power to them. My hunch is that they are only going to announce a master plan.

[Marcus Bryant]

Actually the NFL wants a franchise in LA, stadium in the works or not.

[TheWriter]

Actually the NFL wants a franchise in LA, stadium in the works or not.

Which why both the NFL and city of LA have all ready come to an agreement that LA will recieve a team by 2009.

Whether through expansion or relocation.

[TheWriter]

I really don't like the idea of one large all encompasing sports complex.

Works well for Philly.

Why wouldn't you want all sports venues locate din the same central area? Like like a CBD, Finanical district, arts district, diamond district, etc.

[SWC Bonfire]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Alamodome WAS state-of-the art when built. How is this state-of-the-art going to be different?

[TheWriter]

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


:lol :lol :lol

[TheWriter]

Alamodome WAS state-of-the art when built.

It was?

That's like saying Oklahoma City's downtown arena is state-of-the-art just because it's new.

It most def. isn't.


How is this state-of-the-art going to be different?

Because only a handful of NFL cities have brand new state of the art stadiums that the NFL craves.

[SWC Bonfire]

Because only a handful of NFL cities have brand new state of the art stadiums that the NFL craves.

Well, that's what the induvidual OWNERS crave. The league craves making more money from the largest possible fan base for a given number of teams.

[TheWriter]

Well, that's what the induvidual OWNERS crave. The league craves making more money from the largest possible fan base for a given number of teams.

The league makes money off the tv market? I thought it was the owners?

[SA210]

Is the press conference gonna be shown at 2 or recorded, then shown on the news at 5?

[TheWriter]

Is the press conference gonna be shown at 2 or recorded, then shown on the news at 5?

Yeah, most likely shown later today at 5.

Hopefully sooner.

[ChumpDumper]

Interesting move. I think the multiple sports venues are still kind of pie in the sky from a practical standpoint -- ultimately HH might just be angling to get control of Willow Springs and develop the resort around it, which isn't a bad plan in itself if they can get a relatively crapless corridor from I-35 to it.

[SA210]

thanks :tu

[SWC Bonfire]

The league makes money off the tv market? I thought it was the owners?

An owner moving a team to a new stadium in an unpopular location is like a board member of a corporation screwing the company out of extra revenue by pursuing a pet project of his own that only he gets paid for.

[SA210]

Not to get off subject , but whatever happened to that whole "hollywood coming to SA" thing and that film studio stuff? Any updates?

[spurs_2108]

Its 2 o'clock....

[TheWriter]

An owner moving a team to a new stadium in an unpopular location is like a board member of a corporation screwing the company out of extra revenue by pursuing a pet project of his own that only he gets paid for.

This sports entertainment district will be an unpopular location?

[TheWriter]

Not to get off subject , but whatever happened to that whole "hollywood coming to SA" thing and that film studio stuff? Any updates?

SAF Studio's is closing in on land in the westover hills area.

[TheWriter]

Wasn't it a issue of market not stadium for the NFL.

Yes.

They wanted the LA market before anyone else.

They got their market.

[SWC Bonfire]

This sports entertainment district will be an unpopular location?

San Antonio is an unpopular location among many owners in the NFL.

[TheWriter]

San Antonio is an unpopular location among many owners in the NFL.

Really, so you know them and know their personal opinions?

So when Jerry Jones says he'd welcome an NFL team to San Antonio and that SA would be a good city for football, I should take that as him slamming San Antonio as a crappy local? :spin

[SWC Bonfire]

It's a locale, and arguing with an idiot makes me an idiot. Good luck with your press conference, I'm done.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, because when public figures make public statements there is no potential for obfuscation.

[TheWriter]

It's a locale, and arguing with an idiot makes me an idiot. Good luck with your press conference, I'm done.

Oh geez, I forgot the E.... kill me.

Fucking dumbass.

[TheWriter]

Yeah, because when public figures make public statements there is no potential for obfuscation.

Sure there is but where's the incentive to do so in this case?

They're looking at out of state investors, not in-state or local.

Their stadium plans don't call for the majority to be paid for by public money.

Where are they trying to screw San Antonio in all this?

Explain.

[Marcus Bryant]

Their stadium plans don't call for the majority to be paid for by public money.

Semantics, I suspect. If the plan calls for a local govt to issue bonds to be serviced by revenues from the facility (and backed by the full faith and credit of that govt) is that public money or private? I say public.



Where are they trying to screw San Antonio in all this?


Why would a developer want to "screw" SA? Think about it. The developer is going to be trying to land some institutional money. To get that, he has to offer them the prospect of a fairly healthy potential IRR. On top of that, the developer has to ensure that they will get paid too. That comes in the form of a promote, which is basically the excess cash over a certain IRR threshold for the institutional money and after the debt on the property is paid off. The more money from the developer and his investors up front, the lower the returns.

[TheWriter]

I'm glad you have your cynical version of how things are going or how things are getting done but in the end all you've done is proved yourself to be a bitter, envious, dickhead who would much rather have a H-bomb go off in San Antonio than something of this scale.

Whatever helps you sleep at night Marky.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why can't you actually respond to my comments instead of flaming away? Sheesh.

[jcrod]

Why are ya'll out to prove Writer wrong??? He's not making the shit up, its there. Why wouldn't you want this for our city???? No use in arguing, its great/awesome if it happens. If it doesn't, no lose, because we never had it.

Here's to our beautiful city growing......hopefully.

[TheWriter]

Why can't you actually respond to my comments instead of flaming away? Sheesh.

Because everyone of your comments is your own personal hypothetical bullshit propaganda.

[TheWriter]

Why are ya'll out to prove Writer wrong??? He's not making the shit up, its there. Why wouldn't you want this for our city???? No use in arguing, its great/awesome if it happens. If it doesn't, no lose, because we never had it.

Ask each one of them where they live, you'll see an interesting pattern.


Here's to our beautiful city growing......hopefully.

Ex-fucking-actly!

[Marcus Bryant]

Because everyone of your comments is your own personal hypothetical bullshit propaganda.


So developers don't want to maximize their return? They aren't paid like that? What part of my analysis is incorrect?

[TheWriter]

So developers don't want to maximize their return? They aren't paid like that? What part of my analysis is incorrect?

Who doesn't want to maximize their porfits, but your insentient attempts at trying to conjure up ways to piece together some kind of smoking gun for this projects demise is tiring.

[Marcus Bryant]

What is tiring about discussing how this project would be financed? If it's to become a reality that is the issue that will make or break it.

[TheWriter]

What is tiring about discussing how this project would be financed? If it's to become a reality that is the issue that will make or break it.

Why does it matter so much to you how a mega scale development is financed in San Antonio?

Why have you spent a majority (it seems so) of your life arguing about a San Antonio development?

[Marcus Bryant]

Why does it matter so much to you how a mega scale development is financed in San Antonio?

You're right. Only you can comment on this project.




Why have you spent a majority (it seems so) of your life arguing about a San Antonio development?

Nah, I don't spend my life worrying about development in SA. That's your role.

[TheWriter]

You're right. Only you can comment on this project.

No, but its interesting how much time you spend debating this subject with me. Like you have some personal gain in it.

I simply supply the information and you seem to want to contradict or disprove everything.



Nah, I don't spend my life worrying about development in SA. That's your role.

Really? Because I wouldn't be surprised if you have more posts total than I do concerning this subject.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why do you post? Do you have something to gain?

Again, discuss or scroll.

[TheWriter]

Why do you post? Do you have something to gain?

Again, discuss or scroll.

Because I have to retort every stupid fucking thing you seem to think matters or is cared for on this board.

I simply provide the information for this board and you spend countless hours trying to come up with some way to disprove it.

Sad.

[SequSpur]

This shit is never going to happen. MLB? yeah right. Nascar? what race are they going to get? Football Stadium? we already have one.

No frickin way especially on Houston St. and Coliseum road.

[TheWriter]

This shit is never going to happen. MLB? yeah right. Nascar? what race are they going to get? Football Stadium? we already have one.

No frickin way especially on Houston St. and Coliseum road.

Don't whether, I don't think they'll have any height restrictions.

Maybe at the Rodeo Village but I don't think they want vertically challenged people riding the bulls and horses.

[Marcus Bryant]

Because I have to retort every stupid fucking thing you seem to think matters or is cared for on this board.

I simply provide the information for this board and you spend countless hours trying to come up with some way to disprove it.

Sad.


It took me all of a minute to respond to your drivel.

[TheWriter]

It took me all of a minute to respond to your drivel.

Yet you still responded. There in lies the problem.

[j-6]

Does it bother any of you guys that the person scheming to bring major league level football, baseball, and car racing venues to SA is a convicted felon?

I'd keep my hand clenched on my wallet.

[Marcus Bryant]

Does it bother any of you guys that the person scheming to bring major league level football, baseball, and car racing venues to SA is a convicted felon?

I'd keep my hand clenched on my wallet.


Yeah, there is that component. Surely if San Antonio was such a great prospect might someone of better repute be attracted to it.

I would be curious as to just who would be investing with him. I'm not sure this guy would even make it to DD with most institutional investors.

[TheWriter]

Does it bother any of you guys that the person scheming to bring major league level football, baseball, and car racing venues to SA is a convicted felon?

I'd keep my hand clenched on my wallet.

Not when it was for mail fraud 18 years ago and hell he served his time after he did the crime.

Forget it, lets not give him a second chance.

[Marcus Bryant]

Not when it was for mail fraud and hell he's served his time after he did the crime.

Forget it, lets not give him a second chance.


It was mail fraud connected to some deals. As in, he cheated his investors or a bank.

[Marcus Bryant]

Forget it, lets not give him a second chance.

What? Since when is this about giving a convicted felon a second chance?

[TheWriter]

Yeah, there is that component. Surely if San Antonio was such a great prospect might someone of better repute be attracted to it.

I didn't know someone who committed mail fraud was the same as someone who committed a rape or murder... weird.

I'm sure all the other top men of much "reputable" developement companies have squeaky clean histories.

Neve rhave cheated, lied, etc... :rolleyes

[TheWriter]

What? Since when is this about giving a convicted felon a second chance?

It's not seeing how he's had his second chance for some 15 years now and he and his company are doing just damn fine.

[j-6]

Not when it was for mail fraud and hell he's served his time after he did the crime.

Forget it, lets not give him a second chance.

For starters, first class is not second chance. What kind of venture capitalists are going to be willing to throw their money into a project headed up by a felon, where the public is less than enthusiastic about contributing tax dollars? The same guys that run the Bada Bing? I'd be a little less skeptical if someone like the Donald threw his weight behind this massive of a proposal.

Don't tell me that no public monies are being used, either.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA112005.03A.rodriguez_column.25fb77a3.html

The Baileys say investors won't sink money into a stadium — but they will pour it into a sports and entertainment district.

Yes, they acknowledge, some public money will be necessary. But how much?

Joe Heitzler, CEO of the Baileys' company, HollyHills Development: "I will better know the answer after the first of the year."


Do you know anything about why he was found guilty of mail fraud, and the other charges brought against him?

[TheWriter]

It was mail fraud connected to some deals. As in, he cheated his investors or a bank.

It was in relation to a failed mortgage investment company. The guy served his 31 months in min-security prison.

[Marcus Bryant]

I didn't know someone who committed mail fraud was the same as someone who committed a rape or murder... weird.

I'm sure all the other top men of much "reputable" developement companies have squeaky clean histories.

Neve rhave cheated, lied, etc... :rolleyes


He served time for an infraction connected with a development project. Yeah, no reason to be wary.

[Marcus Bryant]

It was in relation to a failed mortgage investment company. The guy served his 31 months in min-security prison.


Yeah, no reason to be concerned. Why don't you give him some millions?

[TheWriter]

For starters, first class is not second chance. What kind of venture capitalists are going to be willing to throw their money into a project headed up by a felon, where the public is less than enthusiastic about contributing tax dollars?

Probably the same ones that have already invested in his prior projects.



Do you know anything about why he was found guilty of mail fraud, and the other charges brought against him?

It was in relation to a failed mortgage investment company.

[TheWriter]

He served time for an infraction connected with a development project. Yeah, no reason to be wary.

It had nothing to do with a development project.

And seeing how he's done nothing since that would make me think twice, I have no reason.

[TheWriter]

I love this... the two posters from the most overrated city in America are at their wits end just thinking about this project.

:lol :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

You realize that debt is an investment in a property, do you not?

[Marcus Bryant]

I love this... the two posters from the most overrated city in America are at their wits end just thinking about this project.

:lol :lol


San Antonio? Well, as much as you overrate it, you might be right.

[TheWriter]

You realize that debt is an investment in a property, do you not?

You do realize it didn't have to do directly with a development project.

You do realiz how big a twit you are.

[TheWriter]

San Antonio? Well, as much as you overrate it, you might be right.

Seeing how neither of you dogturds live in San Antonio, I'm probably not talking about San Antonio.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't live in San Antonio?

[TheWriter]

I don't live in San Antonio?

This again? :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

You do realize it didn't have to do directly with a development project.

You do realiz how big a twit you are.


When you invest in the debt of a property you are investing in that property.

Anyways, the difference you are trying to create is immaterial. He was convicted of fraud. A cheat is a cheat.

[Marcus Bryant]

This again? :lol


Yes. You apparently believe that you know where I live and I don't.

[TheWriter]

Yes. You apparently believe that you know where I live and I don't.

Because either you really love posing over the internet or the many times you've stated where you live is where the fuck you love dimbass.

I'm not going to play any more fucking games with you.

We can make this another 10 page thread.

But I'm killing it now.

I'll post renderings as soon as they're released... or before Marcus states it, I'll take pictures with my camera of the news cast showing the renderings on my tv.

[Marcus Bryant]

Posing? I'm not the one posting pics as if I am actually involved in the project.

When you actually advise institutional investors and vet those who want their money, as I do, then perhaps I will think you are something other than a kid with a modem and a hardon for cool buildings.

Late.

[j-6]

Hey, I wish you guys all the best of luck with this whole project. I'm just having a hard time believing that some guy who served time for fraud is going to get enough legitimate money from investors to put up a baseball-only stadium, a football-only stadium, a Nascar/IRL-only venue, and a resort golf course. Of course, HollyHills wants some public money (of course) and won't even give a ballpark estimate until the new year.

What's the price tag, anyway? Three billion?

[SA210]

It's really sickening to me that when some great development in San Antonio is coming or someone wants to bring something to our city; People put down the city and basically say we are not worthy, and say basically; that no way can San Antonio have that.

I'm sick and tired of that.

This is the kind of thinking that keeps us a lower class city.

[TheWriter]

This is the kind of thinking that keeps us a lower class city.

That thinking in this thread is coming from two people who don't live in San Antonio.

[SA210]

Well that's why SA needs to just head forward and prove people wrong so that the best the doubters can do is roll their eyes. I'm doing my part.

[Das Texan]

actually Jerry Jones doesnt want a team in San Antonio, doesnt matter what else happens.


nice to see them finally buying the necessary land to try to make this pipe dream happen.

[TheWriter]

San Antonio is growing leaps in bounds both population wise and job wise.

The future is very bright for this city.

With some 3-5 percent annual job growth for atleast the next 5 years if not longer.

Not to mention the serious growth spurt the city is currently going through population wise with us hitting the 2 million mark by or before 2008.

[TheWriter]

actually Jerry Jones doesnt want a team in San Antonio, doesnt matter what else happens.

Really, so that wasn't his "I wouldn't mind a team in San Antonio" quotes I saw in an MSNBC article?

[Marcus Bryant]

It's really sickening to me that when some great development in San Antonio is coming or someone wants to bring something to our city; People put down the city and basically say we are not worthy, and say basically; that no way can San Antonio have that.

I'm sick and tired of that.

This is the kind of thinking that keeps us a lower class city.


The tenor of this discussion has a lot to do with the goodwill (or lack thereof) that the thread's originator has earned for himself in this forum.

[TheWriter]

Yep, here it is:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9887810/


Jones, in New York to introduce Sheryl Crow as the halftime entertainer for the Cowboys’ Thanksgiving Day game, said he would have no objection to an NFL team in San Antonio, even though Texas already has teams in Dallas and Houston. The Cowboys have a strong fan base in San Antonio and trained there in the past.

[TheWriter]

The tenor of this discussion has a lot to do with the goodwill (or lack thereof) that the thread's originator has earned for himself in this forum.

What the fuck does my rep on this board have to do with the news I post here?

Is it your immature blind hate for me? Most likely.

Why don't you just ignore the threads I start. Be a big man instead of a little girl.

[Marcus Bryant]

Funny. That description fits yourself perfectly.

[TheWriter]

Funny. That description fits yourself perfectly.

And the wheel... spins round.

[j-6]

The most expensive private construction project in US history is about to take place in downtown Vegas, costing about $5 billion and covering ~65 acres. What are three spanking new sport-specific stadia and a golf resort on 1000 acres of semi-occupied land gonna run?

[Marcus Bryant]

The most expensive private construction project in US history is about to take place in downtown Vegas, costing about $5 billion and covering ~65 acres. What are three spanking new sport-specific stadia and a golf resort on 1000 acres of semi-occupied land gonna run?


San Antonio is the bestest city in the world and the next Phoenix you dickhead.

[TheWriter]

The most expensive private construction project in US history is about to take place in downtown Vegas, costing about $5 billion and covering ~65 acres. What are three spanking new sport-specific stadia and a golf resort on 1000 acres of semi-occupied land gonna run?

My estimate... between just a little less than 2 billion and just a little more than 2 billion.

Football stadium: 600 million
MLB Stadium: 600 million
Nascar/Indy track: 200 million
Golf resort: 100 million
Entertainment: 80 million
Office-Hotels: 50 million
Infastructure: 10 million

That's 1.7 billion.

Up the numbers a few and you might get 2 billion.



Wait, the big dig in Boston wasn't the most expensive construction project in the history of the US???

[ChumpDumper]

The most expensive private construction project in US history is about to take place in downtown Vegas, costing about $5 billion and covering ~65 acres.Which one is that?

[Das Texan]

Really, so that wasn't his "I wouldn't mind a team in San Antonio" quotes I saw in an MSNBC article?

shit i mean what exactly do you expect Jerry to say publically? I dont want an NFL team here ever. period. That's bad PR even for Jerry, San Antonio is too much of a cash cow for him to anger the market and let them believe he will support that area's dream of an NFL franchise.

[Marcus Bryant]

shit i mean what exactly do you expect Jerry to say publically? I dont want an NFL team here ever. period. That's bad PR even for Jerry, San Antonio is too much of a cash cow for him to anger the market and let them believe he will support that area's dream of an NFL franchise.


Why do you hate San Antonio?

[j-6]

I think the Big Dig was like $15 billion, but that was public $$$.

And Chump, it's the MGM CityCenter project. Here's the link:
http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/051012vegas.asp

[TheWriter]

shit i mean what exactly do you expect Jerry to say publically?

Nothing. But he did.

And we can only go by what he says and not what you think he thinks he's thinking.

[AlamoSpursFan]

The leader of this Holly Hills bunch (Heitzler?) is gonna be on the Chris Duel show on KTSA in a few minutes.

In case anyone reading this thread is actually interested in the topic, instead of the argument currently taking place.

:lol

[TheWriter]

From the HollyHills press conference:

Project would be built in phases.

First phase would be Nascar/Indy track, hotels, condo's, movie theater.

Second phase: More condos, time-shares, rodeo village, man-made lake.

Third phase: Football and baseball stadiums.

The project would be 75% privately funded.

Start date of construction 2 years away.

[SA210]

^^^ saw it, looked great. hope it happens sooner rather than later. I love the lake idea.

[blaze89]

A project this large will be scaled down for one reason or another

Pro Football Stadium = Most likely
Pro Baseball Stadium = Maybe
Pro Basketball (Current SBC Center) = already there
Indy/NASCAR Racing = gone
resort hotel = will be completed
golf course = completed with hotel
vacation shares = gone

I'd expect a scaled down version, probably due to financial concerns.

[AlamoSpursFan]

He's on right now.

[TheWriter]

Indy/NASCAR Racing = gone

Not likely seeing how the IRL wants a race in San Antonio. Not only a grand prix but a real circuit race.


vacation shares = gone

Nope. HollyHills loves time shares.

They're building some 3 or 4 time share projects right now in SA.

[TheWriter]

HollyHills on KTSA right now.

Listen live!

http://www.ktsa.com/

[AlamoSpursFan]

Gee thanks for the programming update.

:rolleyes

[TheWriter]

Stuff said on Chris Duel show:

HollyHills owners feel in love with San Antonio.

Beginning the process of dealing with all the communities involved.

18-24 months is a the timeline for a start of construction.

[TheWriter]

Gee thanks for the programming update.

:rolleyes

Wow, what's with the sarcastic smiley?

[SA210]

what is being said, for some reason the link isn't working for me.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Wow, what's with the sarcastic smiley?

Nothing, nevermind.

[SA210]

what year for full completion? any round number?

[ChumpDumper]

I think the Big Dig was like $15 billion, but that was public $$$.

And Chump, it's the MGM CityCenter project. Here's the link:
http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/051012vegas.asp
Ah, it's on the Strip, not downtown.

But whatever gets rid off the Boardwalk....

[TheWriter]

From the renderings shown, both the Freeman will be torn down (to build a Rodeo Village) and Willow Creek will be built on. The baseball stadium and a man made lake will be built on Willow Springs. From the virtual tour of the complex, the baseball stadium will have a open view of the lake.

[blaze89]

Not likely seeing how the IRL wants a race in San Antonio. Not only a grand prix but a real circuit race.



Nope. HollyHills loves time shares.

They're building some 3 or 4 time share projects right now in SA.

It's not what other people want, it's what is affordable. This will mainly be built with private money and no telling how the economic future will be. Will HollyHills have the financial backing to pull off such a grand scale venture? Only time will tell.

I don't know much of HollyHills but I'm certain something of this grand will be scaled down based on finances and business sense. I'm just hoping that if this is completed, this is not a pink elephant, it's paid in full, and being used consistently.

Sounds great right now but its still preliminary. Look forward to see what develops.

[cherylsteele]

Why do you hate San Antonio?
I could ask the same about you.


I seem to recall a few weeks ago H2 saying no public money would be used for any of the project. Yet you keep saying you don't believe it. You are speculating. The Writer is posting factual news. I am reserving criticism or comment until it the actual time comes.
Me...I am cautiously optomistic....I hope this is isn't a "pipe dream"....H2 has already put up money to pay for the land and it costed the city.....ZERO.

[gameFACE]

Works well for Philly.

Why wouldn't you want all sports venues locate din the same central area? Like like a CBD, Finanical district, arts district, diamond district, etc.
I don't actually know how well the Wachovia Sports complex is working in Philly but I do know that a key component is the rail line that runs to it. Interestingly enough I was in Houston a few weeks ago and was amazed at how many people take the rail line down to Reliant Stadium to avoid the traffic hassle. That's the problem with having a single sports complex. Wasted land. It's been an unfortunate trend the last decade or so that everything has to be "mega" grocery store or office supply or retail center or this or that. Very impersonal. Think of the embellished strip centers like the Quarry or Heubner Oaks. They are some of the most awful planning but people accept it. CBD's and arts districts are generally more urban and pedestrian friendly. Have you seen photos of the Wachovia center? It's depressing. Hopefully this lake idea that was mentioned making the area more desireable to go to even when games wouldn't be played.

The main thing to remember is that the plan H2 is envisioning is only a master plan. An idea. Nothing is set. I can recount to you many SA projects that were only partially built or never built at all.

As far as them being crooks in the past it doesn't surprise me. Happens with a lot of developers for some reason. I remember a local developer, David Saks, served time for tax evasion, I think. He built the now razed "pink elephant" where UTSA downtown is and some office buildings.

BTW, what channel was the H2 story on?

[Marcus Bryant]

I could ask the same about you.


I seem to recall a few weeks ago H2 saying no public money would be used for any of the project. Yet you keep saying you don't believe it. You are speculating. The Writer is posting factual news. I am reserving criticism or comment until it the actual time comes.
Me...I am cautiously optomistic....I hope this is isn't a "pipe dream"....H2 has already put up money to pay for the land and it costed the city.....ZERO.


The KENS interview with Connolly, HH's spokesman, clearly shows him state that the plans for the stadium would require some public funding.

[tw05baller]

From the renderings shown, both the Freeman will be torn down (to build a Rodeo Village) and Willow Creek will be built on. The baseball stadium and a man made lake will be built on Willow Springs. From the virtual tour of the complex, the baseball stadium will have a open view of the lake.

where can i see this virtual tour?

[Mark in Austin]

I simply provide the information for this board...

Just remember that there is a difference between information and facts.

1. A press release from Holly Hills may be interesting, but should not be taken as gospel, nor should one automatically assume that it's sole purpose is to announce the proposed deal.

2. Quoting Jerry Jones' response when he was asked what he thought of a team in San Antonio does not mean that what he said is how he really feels. What's he going to say, "No, I would rather go without my botox than see a team in SA."? And thus risk alienating all the rabid football fans here that buy so much of the Cowboys-themed merchandise he gets a cut of? No way. You're smart emough to connect the dots here.

A press release is nothing more than a tool used by a person or entity to frame or "pre-spin" a story in the way most advantageous to the protagonist. It gives press the talking points they need to fill out a thirty second or one minute news spot. Most television reporters aren't smart enough or simply don't care enough to dig any deeper than what is handed to them by the protagonist. There is a fine line between information and propaganda, and a deep chasm between information and fact. Asking tough questions and getting the answers helps to bridge that chasm.

I don't hate San Antonio. I grew up in San Antonio and still spend several weekends a month in San Antonio visiting friends and family. If I hated or didn't care about San Antonio, I wouldn't spend time trying to temper or put into perspective some of the things you so energetically post about, I would ignore it and let the damage be done. It saddens and frustrates me that enthusiastic yet somewhat wide-eyed and naive people aren't circumspect enough to ask tough questions about a project of this magnitude that is being proposed by a group that has a convicted felon as its leader, and judging by the projects listed on its website, has never worked on a project of this size (acreage) and scale (building types).

Legitimate projects can stand up to far greater scruitiny than anybody here has thrown at this one thus far. And believe me, this one deserves scruitiny - if for no other reason than:

1. This development company has never done a project of this magnitude,
2. The histories of the major players, and
3. San Antonio is still viewed by many people outside of the city as a somewhat provincial backwater town starting to (finally) grow, but that is comparitively unsophisticated when it comes to growth issues. I can say this because I have witnessed it first hand. I am in development, and have been a part of meetings and have developed plans that, had they been located in San Antonio, you would post about. There are some true SLIMEBALLS in this field - some of which will in all likelyhood play parts in this project if it ever comes to fruition. And the percentage of private developers who give a rat's ass about what is in the best interest of the jurisdiction in which their project is located hovers somewhere around 10% in a boom market and .01% in a bust market. Taking what they say at face value is beyond optimistic; it is simply foolish.

It is the public's responsibility to ask tough questions, and to demand that our elected officials do the same. Legit developers with legit projects will welcome this scruitiny as an opportunity to show the merits of the project to the City/neighborhoods in which it is porposed.

[CharlieMac]

I'll never understand why they want to put all of this in the eastside. Even when I lived there, I wouldn't wantto go watch a game at the SBC Center. all of this shit should be downtown. Afterall, Sunset Station is a dump.

[TheWriter]

The KENS interview with Connolly, HH's spokesman, clearly shows him state that the plans for the stadium would require some public funding.


When the owner of Holly Hills says 75%-80% of this massive project will be paid via private funds, I doubt its much the city pays or a large amount of public funds.

[TheWriter]

where can i see this virtual tour?

On the news. Hopefully I can find it online.

[TheWriter]

I'll never understand why they want to put all of this in the eastside. Even when I lived there, I wouldn't wantto go watch a game at the SBC Center. all of this shit should be downtown. Afterall, Sunset Station is a dump.

Once you see the renderings you'll love what you see.

[CharlieMac]

Once you see the renderings you'll love what you see.

I've seen the little sketches they've had on the news. It does look great, no doubt about that. I just don't like the location. Whether it's on the east/west/north/ or the southside, I just don't like the idea of something like this being in a neighborhood. Not because of teh residents, I dont really care about that, but it does nothing for the city. Population wise, what are we now, 7? That's great and all, but until San Antonio jumps up in the Metropolitan rankings (I think we're 35 or some shit) we're always going to have that small market label. Downtown is the key. I've been down there for years, and trust me, people still think San Antonio is a cute little town. Vacant domes and teh Sunset area dont help at all.

But yeah, it really does look great.

[TheWriter]

KENS Video with renderings and virtual tour:

http://www2.mysanantonio.com/multimedia/video/VideoPlayer/includes/gen_nod_wm.cfm?ids=34186

[CharlieMac]

KENS Video with renderings and virtual tour:

http://www2.mysanantonio.com/multimedia/video/VideoPlayer/includes/gen_nod_wm.cfm?ids=34186

Damn, yeah that does seem cool. It's be nice to know that by the time I'm 40, we'd have and NFL and MLB team here. The lake idea though is pushing it.

[TheWriter]

but it does nothing for the city.

It does everything for the city!



(I think we're 35 or some shit)

29th


we're always going to have that small market label.

That is a self label. 2 million people isn't "small." Mid-sized, maybe.


Downtown is the key. I've been down there for years, and trust me, people still think San Antonio is a cute little town.

Building this downtown is gonna make no difference in any way. Also, where ar eyou going to get the land for such a thing downtown? Nowhere. Did you see how massive the renderings were? How massive it'll be? With all the housing and condos and etc, you could probably have a population of close to 10,000.

Not to mention, other developers will probably start buying people out of their homes before poperty values skyrocket and develope on the land.

This will help create a new urban area in the city of San Antonio. Probably the most urban and dense development outside of San Antonio. More dense and urban than The Rim once at complete built.


Vacant domes and teh Sunset area dont help at all.

HollyHills wouldn't be able to build such a project downtown, it's that simple.

[TheWriter]

The lake idea though is pushing it.

Not really, google San Antonio and look at the map, now look at the Willow Creek golf course. There's already a little "pond/lake" there. I would assume seeing from the renderings that the HollyHills lake would just be the expanded lake/pond at the golf course.

[CharlieMac]

Tourist come into town, and there is nothing to do downtown. Nothing. College kids ask me during Alamobowl, and I want to say that I've told thousands of people "No" when they ask if there is anything to do downtown aside from see the Alamo. Which no outside of families from Oklahoma lookin to spend little to no cash wants to see either way.

You've got to accept we still carry that small market label. Mid-sized city, yes, no doubt. But those are are two separate entities.

It is massive and people will get displaced one way or another. Even on the eastside, it just doesn't make sense to think that no one will be bought out of their homes. I mean come on, a lake and a racetrack.

But yeah, it would be pushing it to think all of this could fit downtown. Some of it could I think, and that's something to keep in mind because I don't think everything in these early proposals will be built in the long run. Especially that lake. That area near the jail where all the bums hang out would be perfect.

I remember after 9/11 making absolutely nothing on the Riverwalk. There were nights when we made 10 bucks. We get so many conventions in this town and give those guys that are grateful to be away from their wives nothing o do downtown. I'm not gonna be the asshole to recommend Polyesther's to them either. Downtown and our tourist economy relies on families too much. These people here for conventions aren't going to make a trip to the eastside to watch an NFL team that's going to be as bad as the Texans for it's first few years. And locals aren't going to fork out money to make trips there every weekend. Look at Retama Park.

Like I said though, these early visuals look great.

[SequSpur]

Alot of entrepreneurs like to have big grand ideas and they love to get in the public and gloat about them and the moneys involved.

It's kind of like cold calling, for every 100 people you call, you may get one sucker to set up a meeting or something like that.

Same concept, come up with ideas and keep throwing them out there until one sticks.

I just left a company with owners like that.

[TheWriter]

Tourist come into town, and there is nothing to do downtown. Nothing.

There's nothing to do?

What a bunch of hyperbole.

Why does SA annunally get 21+ million visitors if there's nothing to do? Seriously, stop it.


College kids ask me during Alamobowl, and I want to say that I've told thousands of people "No" when they ask if there is anything to do downtown aside from see the Alamo.

Really... wow, how many times have you given bad advice?

Which no outside of families from Oklahoma lookin to spend little to no cash wants to see either way.


You've got to accept we still carry that small market label. Mid-sized city, yes, no doubt. But those are are two separate entities.

No, mid-size market is also a label that could be used to describe San Antonio, but for the same reason you tell people there's nothing to do downtown is the same reason people continue to call San Antonio a small market. There's a bunch of clueless idiots in this world.


It is massive and people will get displaced one way or another. Even on the eastside, it just doesn't make sense to think that no one will be bought out of their homes. I mean come on, a lake and a racetrack.

Have you seen all the industrial land and green space around the SBC Center?

[TheWriter]

Alot of entrepreneurs like to have big grand ideas and they love to get in the public and gloat about them and the moneys involved.

Daniel Bailey is an entrepreneur?


It's kind of like cold calling, for every 100 people you call, you may get one sucker to set up a meeting or something like that.

The only sucker here is you.


Same concept, come up with ideas and keep throwing them out there until one sticks.

What ideas do they keep throwing out there?


I just left a company with owners like that.

The Carnival can be a tough business.

[SequSpur]

The infrastructure around the SBC center is terrible. No company is even considering moving there.

Freeman has been there forever, the sbc center is now there, and guess what, all of the work that was supposed to be done in that area by the county and city has been abandoned.

I doubt this ever works. I can see something like this taking off in another location like the Retama area for example.

[SequSpur]

Daniel Bailey is an entrepreneur?
The only sucker here is you.
What ideas do they keep throwing out there?
The Carnival can be a tough business.

Punk ass.

[TheWriter]

The infrastructure around the SBC center is terrible. No company is even considering moving there.

Do you think HollyHills is planning all this without thinking about improving the infrastucture?

Do you have to be so short minded?


Freeman has been there forever, the sbc center is now there, and guess what, all of the work that was supposed to be done in that area by the county and city has been abandoned.

What work?


I doubt this ever works. I can see something like this taking off in another location like the Retama area for example.

Really, why? They have no height limits?

[TheWriter]

Punk ass.

:stfu Shortie...

[Marcus Bryant]

Again, if some public entity floats a bond (backed by the taxing power of that entity) to construct a facility with the bond to be paid off with revenues from that facility is that "public" or "private" money?

[Marcus Bryant]

I heard Holly Hills is also going to improve San Antonio's schools and fluoridate its water. Can we have a real discussion about this proposal or are we left with falling in lockstep with the Puro San Antonio Gestapo?

[SequSpur]

It's public unless some dude writes a check for it.

This facility is never going to happen.

Why?

Because of the Alamodome, because Nascar or the IRL is not coming to San Antonio, Baseball will never come here and it doesn't look like the NFL masses are supporting this area either.

That's reality.

Houston will get a Nascar track before SA will. San Antonio isn't concerned with baseball, the missions play in the biggest city in the league but have probably the worst facility in all of double a baseball.

No fricking way.

Can these topics be merged?

[CharlieMac]

Alright dude, I'm not gonna bullshit, you're hard-on for this city is something you should look into. Let's agree to disagree. You can go downtown to take all the pictures you want and google as much as you want, but spend a few years working downtown, like I dont know......a decade and you'll see things a little differently.

These 21 million people aren't exact all doctors. A large portion of these tourist are people from places like Lawton looking to spend as little as possible, which is excatly why they pass up Dallas and Austin to come here. Even then, you have a hard time trying to get them to pay two bucks for a Coke instead of having a water with extra sugar and extra lemons.

The rest of these people are here for conventions and cheerleading competitions. Neither of which really have a say so about coming here.


Really... wow, how many times have you given bad advice?

Say there's a convention in town. We're lucky enough to get a convention of 5000 with GI Specialist or dentists in town. It's Tuesday night, they're drinking it up, having a great time and spending major cash, but it's midnight and time to shut down. They ask you where they can go to drink thats fun but it has to be downtown? What do you tell them? What do you tell them when they ask what they can do downtown on a Wednesday afternoon? What do you say? "I don't know but in 15 years we're gonna have this great place on the eastside with plenty to do!"

I'm not giving these people bad advice, I'm just being honest in sending them somewhere. Places like Zincs isn't what these these guys re looking for. Neither is Leapin' Lizards or Bar America.

Situations like that are what really happen downtown. That's why I say give them more options. Even if it is during the day.

San Antonio isn't ever going to be Boston or Chicago. Dallas, maybe. You just gotta let reality set in.

[SequSpur]

Tell them to go the Bonham... :lol

[CharlieMac]

Yeah, and let them know that we have a sweet piece of art work in front of McDonald's to check out on the way there.

[TheWriter]

because Nascar or the IRL is not coming to San Antonio

Really, what's that grand prix thing that have planned for 2007?


Baseball will never come here and it doesn't look like the NFL masses are supporting this area either.

Thanks for the info Cleo.


That's reality.

No, your lame ass opinion.


Houston will get a Nascar track before SA will.

Why? Because you said so?


San Antonio isn't concerned with baseball, the missions play in the biggest city in the league but have probably the worst facility in all of double a baseball.

The Missions? You when the AA team or is it AAA? Yeah, that's how much this city cares about minor league bullcrap farm leagues.

Tell me how the San Antonio ABA team is doing in attendance. The Stallions I believe is what they're called. I guess we ain't too concerned about basketball, huh?

[SequSpur]

San Antonio is the callcenter/customer service capital of the US. Second in the world to India.

I just don't see it bro. Nascar? How is this town going from SA Raceway to a Nascar Track when towns like Denver/Houston don't have one and would probably be a better choice? San Antonio is not a big nascar place. That's reality.

Its double A baseball, young one. you ever been to Round Rock or Corpus Christi? Their baseball stadiums are nicer than the SBC center.

Seriously, why do you think this stuff will happen? And who is going to support it?

Do you know how much a ticket to a nascar event is? Do you think this town can support a 2pm baseball game on a weekday? no one goes to the missions.

[TheWriter]

Alright dude, I'm not gonna bullshit, you're hard-on for this city is something you should look into.

My hard on?


You can go downtown to take all the pictures you want and google as much as you want, but spend a few years working downtown, like I dont know......a decade and you'll see things a little differently.

How about have friends who have lived in the downtown area for lets say... 7 years.

I think that works just as well, don't you?


Even then, you have a hard time trying to get them to pay two bucks for a Coke instead of having a water with extra sugar and extra lemons.

Working at Mickey D's for 10 years must suck.


Neither of which really have a say so about coming here.

Convention organizer don't have a say about where they want to go for a convention?

And I doubt that throughout a year that the city gets 2 million convention goers. Although I'd like to see the numbers. What about the other 20 mil?






Situations like that are what really happen downtown. That's why I say give them more options. Even if it is during the day.


San Antonio isn't ever going to be Boston or Chicago. Dallas, maybe. You just gotta let reality set in.

Reality is, I've never expected that, never said that, and don't believe that.

[TheWriter]

San Antonio is not a big nascar place. That's reality.

And Houston is?


Its double A baseball, young one. you ever been to Round Rock or Corpus Christi?

Repeat those cities in your head and then think about it for a slight moment.


Seriously, why do you think this stuff will happen? And who is going to support it?

Why? Because a developer has the balls to try it. Who is going to support it? The people who move into the condos and apartments. The San Antonian's that go out and cheer on their NFL and MLB team (hopefully).


Do you know how much a ticket to a nascar event is?

Do you know that its more popular than basketball? Yes, there's that many white trash and morons out there willing to pay and watch cars go in a circle. Many who travel from miles and miles away.


Do you think this town can support a 2pm baseball game on a weekday?

Maybe, maybe not, but if you ever watch the MLB during the season, most MLB cities don't go to games either.


no one goes to the missions.

Because they're a MINOR LEAGUE team! Let Lardeo or El Paso have the damn Missons.

[SequSpur]

A nascar event would probably sell out, you are correct, but the rest of the year it would be a ghost town.

As for baseball, I agree, the missions could move for all i care, they are only good for a free night of sweating your ass off watching the worst baseball ever.

I was very high on the Saints moving here, but Tagliabue quickly let the wind out of the sail. I just don't see it happening bro.

I know one thing, New Orleans doesn't even have schools for kids anymore, that place is hosed and football is the last thing they should be worrying about.

[Marcus Bryant]

Houston fits the Nascar profile rather well.

[AlamoSpursFan]

It doesn't matter if SA fits whatever this "NASCAR profile" is or not.

They could put a NASCAR race in Nowhereville, Montana, and it will draw 200,000 people.

[TheWriter]

Houston fits the Nascar profile rather well.

It does... explain, please.

[TheWriter]

It doesn't matter if SA fits whatever this "NASCAR profile" is or not.

They could put a NASCAR race in Nowhereville, Montana, and it will draw 200,000 people.

Exactly.

[CharlieMac]

How about have friends who have lived in the downtown area for lets say... 7 years.

I think that works just as well, don't you?

Oh absolutely. As a matter of fact, when Sunset Station was built, I asked my friends who lived at the Maverick Apartments and Soapworks what they thought about it.


Working at Mickey D's for 10 years must suck.

I wouldn't know. But I'm sure it couldn't suck any more than a grown man living at home still.


Convention organizer don't have a say about where they want to go for a convention?

See, up until this point, I actually thought you knew what you were talking about when it came to the tourist industry. There are convention organizers, and there are convention attendants. Guess what organizers are looking for when they book a city?

I doubt the city gets 2 million a year too, and thats a shame. But people coming to San Antonio to see the Alamo and go to Fiesta Texas while staying at the Motel 6 on IH 35 dont exactly pay the bills here. It's convention people that pay 16 bucks for a magarita that whip out Amex cards that say Procter and Gamble or some shit underneath their name that do.

[TheWriter]

A nascar event would probably sell out, you are correct, but the rest of the year it would be a ghost town.

Isn't that pretty much the same with all Nascar tracks?


I was very high on the Saints moving here, but Tagliabue quickly let the wind out of the sail. I just don't see it happening bro.

He let the wind out? How? It's still Benson's team from what I remember.
about.[/QUOTE]

[SequSpur]

Isn't that pretty much the same with all Nascar tracks?


He let the wind out? How? It's still Benson's team from what I remember.
about.[/QUOTE]

The Texas Speedway has plenty of events scheduled to make it successful.

If Benson had a sayso, why are they playing in Baton Rouge and a home game at the Giants stadium?

You ever been to Baton Rouge? If you have, then you would realize Benson doesn't have a say in much.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Isn't that pretty much the same with all Nascar tracks?

Nope. They have other series that race there and they also have driving schools that rent the tracks out.

[TheWriter]

I wouldn't know. But I'm sure it couldn't suck any more than a grown man living at home.

I am a grown man living at my home, true. It does not suck though.

I see you now have joined the other mindless sheep.


See, up until this point, I actually thought you knew what you were talking about when it came to the tourist industry.

I do. I know the numbers and figures.

9.1 million of the 21 million are leisure visitors who on average spend a night in San Antonio. Spending somewhere between 91 and 100 dollars per person.


There are convention organizers, and there are convention attendants.

Yeah. And the convention organizers choose certain cities year after year for a reason.

[TheWriter]

The Texas Speedway has plenty of events scheduled to make it successful.

Whhaaat? So you're saying they race on the track even when its not Nascar season?

Holy crap! I guess they possibly couldn't do that here... :rolleyes


If Benson had a sayso, why are they playing in Baton Rouge and a home game at the Giants stadium?

The NFL decides the schedule. Benson decides where he wants his team in the long run.

[Marcus Bryant]

Houston has what? A surbanite population with plenty of 30 and 40 year old Southern born males with disposable income who would have no problem with heading out to the track with some buddies to watch a race or hang out at home and catch it on the tube in the backyard while grilling up some burgers and downing some MGDs or whatever.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Houston has what? A surbanite population with plenty of 30 and 40 year old Southern born males with disposable income who would have no problem with heading out to the track with some buddies to watch a race or hang out at home and catch it on the tube in the backyard while grilling up some burgers and downing some MGDs or whatever.

And those males will be just as happy to drag their asses to SA for a race as they will to stay home and watch one.

Believe me, plenty of the 250,000 race fans in Fort Worth a few weekends ago came up from H-town.

[TheWriter]

Houston has what? A surbanite population with plenty of 30 and 40 year old Southern born males with disposable income who would have no problem with heading out to the track with some buddies to watch a race or hang out at home and catch it on the tube in the backyard while grilling up some burgers and downing some MGDs or whatever.

Oh yeah, that so fits the criteria for a Nascar city. :lol

Hell, is there even a criteria?

[CharlieMac]

I am a grown man living at my home, true. It does not suck though.
I see you now have joined the other mindless sheep.

Fish in a barrell, squirt...... fish in a barrell. To be fair though, I haven't used the multiple screen names, Nsync, or photo stealing material on you. Those things went too far and weren't that funny to begin with. Besides, I was on teh Sugar Ray messageboard when I was a kid. I wouldn't want anyone to hold that against me now.

The moral of this story is, tourists need more to do downtown. Fact.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh yeah, that so fits the criteria for a Nascar city. :lol


Yes it does. Moreso than SA, no doubt.




Hell, is there even a criteria?

Um, yeah.

[TheWriter]

Fish in a barrell, squirt...... fish in a barrell. To be fair though, I haven't used the multiple screen names, Nsync, or photo stealing material on you. Those things went too far and weren't that funny to begin with. Besides, I was on teh Sugar Ray messageboard when I was a kid. I wouldn't want anyone to hold that against me now.

The moral of this story is, tourists need more to do downtown. Fact.

Seeing how this is being built with hotels and a resort golf course, don't you think "tourist" will be staying there? I do.

Hell, they can stay in a hotel room downtown, catch a bus or (please god!) light rail 2 miles east.

[dawn]

San Antonio Speedway is one of two NASCAR sanctioned tracks in Texas and the only asphalt half-mile track in Texas.

This is one thing going for us.

Two: Location, Location, Location! Far enough away from Texas Motor Speedway and yet close enough to those border cities who turned out in Mexico City this year to sell out a Busch Series Race.

In my opinion what would do well here would be a short track. We need more short track racing on the circut. Too many cookie cutter tracks like Texas and Atlanta.

[TheWriter]

Um, yeah.

What is it?

1) Have a big race track.

2) Enough trailer parking.

3) Enough trucker hats for sale.

Like it was said before, you could put a track in Del Rio and people will go to it.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why bother with putting it in the middle of nowhere when you can put it in North Houston?

[TheWriter]

Why bother with putting it in the middle of nowhere when you can put it in North Houston?

It's the middle of nowhere until someone makes it something.

This is the Victory development in Dallas but on a grander scale.

Go try looking that up.

Go look where they decided to build that thing.

Sure, very close to their downtown but it was a wasteland prior to somone's "vision."

[SequSpur]

San Antonio Speedway is one of two NASCAR sanctioned tracks in Texas and the only asphalt half-mile track in Texas.

This is one thing going for us.

Two: Location, Location, Location! Far enough away from Texas Motor Speedway and yet close enough to those border cities who turned out in Mexico City this year to sell out a Busch Series Race.

In my opinion what would do well here would be a short track. We need more short track racing on the circut. Too many cookie cutter tracks like Texas and Atlanta.

Hey Dawn!

Don't forget to mention that San Antonio Speedway has the crappiest lineup of cars that race on that track and on any given Saturday night, a race might consist of 3 cars. Also, a main event may be cancelled and you are stuck watching go kart racing.

I have been there and I must say I am never going back to that craphole.

I used to live in Denver and the Colorado Rocky Mountain Speedway was first class and SA's imitation isn't even close to it.

MLB, NFL, Nascar????????

It's just an illusion.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Since when is the east side of San Antonio the middle of nowhere?

[dawn]

TMS is really out in the middle of Nothing. Justin, Tx and Hwy 114 is not really in the middle of town. But they sure are building like crazy out there.

[TheWriter]

I have been there and I must say I am never going back to that craphole.

So your lame ass goes one time and now you think you know how it operates on a weekly basis?


MLB, NFL, Nascar????????

It's just an illusion.

As well as wearing platforms.

[Marcus Bryant]

I was referring to the Del Rio suggestion, but North Houston is definitely more attractive for such a venue than SA's Eastside.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Also, a main event may be cancelled and you are stuck watching go kart racing.

Can't argue with that...I mean they DID shitcan the boat races last weekend.

:lol

[TheWriter]

I was referring to the Del Rio suggestion, but North Houston is definitely more attractive for such a venue than SA's Eastside.

Now, yes. But once the project is finished... hellz no.

[SequSpur]

Del Rio? Del Rio sucks... How does Writer come up with this crap?

[TheWriter]

Del Rio? Del Rio sucks... How does Writer come up with this crap?

I wasn't being serious. Just explaining that one could put a Nascar track in let's say Sequ's ass and people will still fill the stadium up on race day.

[SequSpur]

So your lame ass goes one time and now you think you know how it operates on a weekly basis?

As well as wearing platforms.

You really are a dipshit.

I don't go pay $10+ for something and get lied to and then go back for seconds you dipshit.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Del Rio's better than Laredo.

Of course, a festering cesspool is better than Laredo.

:lol

[dawn]

Hey Dawn!

Don't forget to mention that San Antonio Speedway has the crappiest lineup of cars that race on that track and on any given Saturday night, a race might consist of 3 cars. Also, a main event may be cancelled and you are stuck watching go kart racing.

I have been there and I must say I am never going back to that craphole.

I used to live in Denver and the Colorado Rocky Mountain Speedway was first class and SA's imitation isn't even close to it.

MLB, NFL, Nascar????????

It's just an illusion.

True, on some nights, but I have been there on others and you get great racing. This ain't Lakeland Fl where I saw a great Hooter's Cup Race, but you do get some very talented drivers to pass through and with the right direction, it is going someplace.

For example, Brandon Bendele of Adkins Tx raced in the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series . Brandon drove the #24 Roof Check/Might MTSPS Chevrolet owned by Rob Ferguson on several occasions.

[Marcus Bryant]

Now, yes. But once the project is finished... hellz no.

How so? There are about triple the number of Joe Bobs in the Houston metro area as there are in SA. Lest we forget the proximity to East Texas and Louisiana.

[TheWriter]

You really are a dipshit.

I don't go pay $10+ for something and get lied to and then go back for seconds you dipshit.

No, but your stupid lame ass descriptions of something you've been to once is really dipshit like.

[SequSpur]

True, on some nights, but I have been there on others and you get great racing. This ain't Lakeland Fl where I saw a great Hooter's Cup Race, and this is not the ARCa series, but you do get some very talented drivers to pass through and with the right direction, it is going someplace.

For example, Brandon Bendele of Adkins Tx raced in the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series . Brandon drove the #24 Roof Check/Might MTSPS Chevrolet owned by Rob Ferguson on several occasions.

I would only go again if it was free.

[TheWriter]

How so? There are about triple the number of Joe Bobs in the Houston metro area as there are in SA. Lest we forget the proximity to East Texas and Louisiana.

Are we now on population, I thought we were talking aesthetics.

Forget it, I'm not arguing population numbers with you.

[AlamoSpursFan]

How so? There are about triple the number of Joe Bobs in the Houston metro area as there are in SA. Lest we forget the proximity to East Texas and Louisiana.

Earth to Marcus Bryant: NASCAR fans TRAVEL.

Trust me, those Joe Bobs would be tits-wigglin' happy to come to San Antonio to watch a race or two a season.

[dawn]

I just love racing! I'll watch just about any level.

The one thing that never fails to amuse me is the misunderstanding that NASCAR is a BUBBA sport still and only attended by such. That is so far from true. NASCAR has led to some of the highest market spikes on wall street by its sponsors. This sport, like most has become very corporate. Go to a race and come back and tell me what you see. Yes, you will see a Redneck or two, myself included, but you see more white collar business type wit hplenty of green to spend!

[SequSpur]

Can San Antonio really get a Nascar race? Is this going to be another Texas Open? I think securing a race would be priority number one before building it.....

IRL is not going to fill the seats.

[dawn]

Best thing we can do is shoot right now for Hooter's Cup races or ASA. That is where to start. From there we may get looked at for a Busch race and then Cup. But honestly, with TMS just winning this year their right to two races here, and with the drivers fighting an increase in schedule additions, it will be an uphill battle.

These guys already participate in the longest season in sports. They basicaly have a 90 day off season, that really is not an off season since they are testing and doing wind tunnels and stuff. It really is unbelievable sometimes just how much they travel. More than them though, the amount of fans that travel from track to track each weekend. Fantastic following!

[SequSpur]

Yeah Nascar is pretty much tops when it comes to following.

I wouldn't assume that the city is going to drop a 200,000 seat track in here for a hooter's race. Anything outside of Nascar will be failure after the initial infatuation wears off.

Cities like Miami can't even come up with the funds to build a 38000 seat stadium for a team that has won 2 world series championships in the last 10 years, but San Antonio is going to build another dome, a mlb stadium, a nascar track and another pga village or something similar????????

Someone is smoking some serious crack.

[dawn]

Again, the thing to remember is this is only a vision right now. :spin

[Marcus Bryant]

Are we now on population, I thought we were talking aesthetics.

Forget it, I'm not arguing population numbers with you.


Yeah, it's rather hard to pretend that SA offers a much more appealing demographic profile than Houston.

[TheWriter]

Cities like Miami can't even come up with the funds to build a 38000 seat stadium for a team that has won 2 world series championships in the last 10 years

What does Miami have to do with San Antonio? Hell, they can't even fill the Heat arena.

Miami is NOT sports town.


but San Antonio is going to build another dome, a mlb stadium, a nascar track and another pga village or something similar????????

It's not a PGA Village.

[quote]Someone is smoking some serious crack.

Fucking let me.

[TheWriter]

Yeah, it's rather hard to pretend that SA offers a much more appealing demographic profile than Houston.

I never said that tool.

Dude, seriously, get over yourself.

[Marcus Bryant]

Earth to Marcus Bryant: NASCAR fans TRAVEL.

Trust me, those Joe Bobs would be tits-wigglin' happy to come to San Antonio to watch a race or two a season.


I'm sure even Joe Bobs would appreciate a track that is a couple of hours closer.

[SequSpur]

Again, the thing to remember is this is only a vision right now. :spin

The vision should be to build an infrastructure right now that can lead to bigger growth.

Like transit systems, better highways, better schools, sidewalks, police, fire dept, ambulance, hospitals, etc. etc.

There are numerous developments going up all over town, Westover Hills, Southside, Stone Oak, Retama, etc. etc...

I just see this as an entrepreneur blowing smoke up the asses of the citizens of San Antonio.

Red McCombs doesn't even have enough money to build this kinda crap.

[Marcus Bryant]

I never said that tool.

Dude, seriously, get over yourself.


Oh yes, you didn't say that but that's clearly what was implied, kiddo.

[SequSpur]

Miami is NOT sports town.

Miami Heat
Miami Dolphins
Florida Marlins


Have you ever been to Miami?

[AlamoSpursFan]

I'm sure even Joe Bobs would appreciate a track that is a couple of hours closer.

Sure, they'd appreciate it. But they wouldn't NOT come to our track if we built one. That's all I'm sayin'.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure, they'd appreciate it. But they wouldn't NOT come to our track if we built one. That's all I'm sayin'.


Significantly fewer of them would show.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Miami Heat
Miami Dolphins
Florida Marlins


Have you ever been to Miami?

Don't forget the Panthers. And the U.

Miami has all of the majors. And Jai Alai.

:lol

[SequSpur]

Nascar races will be sold out, that's a given, but the other stuff, not even close, especially if tickets are > 10 dollars.

[SequSpur]

Don't forget the Panthers. And the U.

Miami has all of the majors. And Jai Alai.

:lol

Oh yeah, I forgot... and water sports............

South beach, etc. etc.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Significantly fewer of them would show.

If you say so.

:rolleyes

[AlamoSpursFan]

Oh yeah, I forgot... and water sports............

South beach, etc. etc.

And since we seem to be on the subject, they have the Nextel Cup Chase Championship race.

[TheWriter]

Oh yes, you didn't say that but that's clearly what was implied, kiddo.

When? I was talking visual not population dumbass.

[SequSpur]

And since we seem to be on the subject, they have the Nextel Cup Chase Championship race.

But.....

they are not even close to the Sports town that San Antonio is!

[Marcus Bryant]

When? I was talking visual not population dumbass.


No, you were not, kiddo.

[TheWriter]

Miami Heat
Miami Dolphins
Florida Marlins


Have you ever been to Miami?

Yes they have all that. But they're not a sports town. They'd rather go clubbing and lay out on the beach.

[SequSpur]

Yes they have all that. But they're not a sports town. They'd rather go clubbing and lay out on the beach.

Have you been to Miami? San Antonio isn't even close to a Miami bro.

[TheWriter]

Have you been to Miami? San Antonio isn't even close to a Miami bro.

Yes I have dipshit.

Many times actually.

San Antonio is not close to it, I know, bro.

I'm tallking as a sports city, Miami isn't one.

[SequSpur]

Yes I have dipshit.

Many times actually.

It's not close to San Antonio, I know, bro.

I'm tallking as a sports city, Miami isn't one.

I seriously doubt that you have been there.

What is a Sports city then? Please give me an example.

[TheWriter]

I seriously doubt that you have been there.

Yeah, I have. Summer of 2000, 2001, and 2003.


What is a Sports city then? Please give me an example.

Boston, Chicago, Detroit, New York City, Philly.

[SequSpur]

What about Atlanta? they have a sports complex and they have hosted the olympics?

According to the list that you just posted, Miami would top it in a heartbeat.

[TheWriter]

What about Atlanta? they have a sports complex and they have hosted the olympics?

Atlanta?

How does hosting the Olympics make you a sports city?

Is Athens some bad ass sports city?

Atlanta offered the best deal possible and won the games.

Ever seen a Hawks game on tv? How about the Falcons pre-Vick?


According to the list that you just posted, Miami would top it in a heartbeat.

WTF!?

I'm not talking how many sports teams and sporting events cities host, I'm talking about fan support.

[SequSpur]

fans support winners. if the spurs were annual losers, they probably wouldn't be in sa anymore.

wake up.

[SequSpur]

you forgot Denver to, idiot.

[TheWriter]

fans support winners. if the spurs were annual losers, they probably wouldn't be in sa anymore.

And you know this as a certain fact?


wake up.

Ok.

[TheWriter]

you forgot Denver to, idiot.

Denver, SF, maybe Minny.

I gave you the clipnotes, didn't think I needed to spell it out for ya.

[TheWriter]

Grand vision for East Side

Web Posted: 11/23/2005 12:00 AM CST

Elizabeth Allen
Express-News Staff Writer

Developers who want to do a mammoth sports and entertainment complex centered around the SBC Center had their coming-out party Tuesday at the Red Berry Mansion.

The catered news conference announced a vision in its nascent stage, said HollyHills Chairman Dan Bailey. He said the announcement was made early because of recent media attention to HollyHills activities.

Bailey, along with Vice Chairwoman Marlene Bailey, CEO Joe Heitzler and EDAW design firm Principal Ken Ryan, sat before a green velvet curtain, surrounded by images of professional sports fields, a NASCAR track, shaded shopping venues and condominium towers on man-made lakes.

Phase I of the plan would include the NASCAR track, hotel, retail development, movie theaters, and colorful plants and landscape elements at major highway exits, Bailey said, and begin in about two years.

It would take in the city's Willow Springs Golf Course and the Red Berry Mansion, which owner Bill Tidwell has agreed to sell to HollyHills along with surrounding properties, many of which the Baileys have said they are in the process of buying.

Heitzler said it would be six months before they have estimates on the project's cost.

A single sports stadium can easily cost $500 million, so the whole plan, which developers say could take a decade to build out as population growth supports it, would likely run into the billions.

Reaction to the plan, which HollyHills has been privately shopping for months, was a mixture of admiration and skepticism.

Local commercial real estate broker Tom Rohde called it "the best real estate presentation I have ever seen." He also said, "I don't know where the money comes from."

District 2 City Councilwoman Sheila McNeil said she's excited about the developers' interest in investing in the long-neglected East Side but is cautious about the hurdles they face.

"This was an impressive press conference," McNeil said. "Maybe this can become a possibility."

With the panache that helped EDAW win a contract to redesign the grounds of Bexar County's arenas complex around the SBC Center, Ryan presented reporters and curious real estate professionals with a 3-D multimedia illustration of a 1,000-acre sports and entertainment complex that included water taxis, a signature bridge, hotel, resort and offices.

It's not all about developing multiple sports venues, Ryan said. "It's about creating great public spaces."

Mayor Phil Hardberger, who did not attend the news conference but had seen the plan Monday, said, "It's realistic if HollyHills has enough backing to get it done — these are major projects.

"I don't know enough about HollyHills to say whether they can do everything they're planning. Clearly, that's going to be their job — to get the funding."

Bailey said the project will require the efforts of the entire city and "all the people."

It's a plus that San Francisco-based EDAW is working with local firm Kell Muñoz Architects and others on the redesign of the county's property, Ryan said, and the company has included that factor in its concept for the long-neglected area from the beginning.

Ryan added that newly hired former Mayor Ed Garza would be taking the lead on the Bexar County work.

Kell Muñoz Chief Executive Officer Henry Muñoz said he wants to set up a firewall between the public project and the private one — at least for a while.

County Judge Nelson Wolff has said the county must focus first on its own site.

"I think it was very positive, what they're trying to do there," said Wolff, who did not attend the news conference but had seen versions of the plan. "There's still the unanswered question of, what do they expect the public sector to contribute."

Heitzler said he'll be meeting with venture capitalists to raise funds for the project and that should cover up to 80 percent of the costs.

"But we are looking for whatever support it takes," he said.


http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA112305.1B.eastside.df611e3.htm

[SA210]

It's really sickening to me that when some great development in San Antonio is coming or someone wants to bring something to our city; People put down the city and basically say we are not worthy, and say basically; that no way can San Antonio have that.

I'm sick and tired of that.

This is the kind of thinking that keeps us a lower class city.
^^^^ I felt like posting this again.

[MannyIsGod]

SA210 is BuddyHolly as well? Didn't he try to make his own forum 210 something? Weak.

[SA210]

Have you been to Miami? San Antonio isn't even close to a Miami bro.

This is what I'm talking about. This kind of thinking is exactly why San Antonio remains a 2nd class city. This is why we are no Miami or any other so called wonderful city.

Sooner or later someone has to have the balls to say, hey, this is what we are going to be. San Antonio in a couple of years is gonna pop, that is a fact. We should be ready for it, whether it be fixing streets, jobs, housing and yes even sports complexes.

Those great cities that are being mentioned have, in a way already reached alot of their potential. San Antonio hasn't yet. We are starting to see the light, and thank god we have a mayor with some balls, finally.

And The Writer, please man, don't give in to people who say SA will never be Houston, SA will never be Denver, or whatever bs excuse of what SA will never be. It's ok to say, you know what, we CAN be. It's OK to say we CAN be better. Let's stop this small thinking, this "we are not deserving", "no way in SA" thinking, and we will be a top notch city come in the future. I'm on that bus.

Backwater town? Only because those who believe it. And it also makes me think in a way, they want to believe that.

And the doubters from now will just have to roll there eyes in the future.

SA's my town, and we can be a whole lot better than other cities. It's gotta start somewhere. Saying it's a backwater town and accepting that; isn't gonna get it done. That's being realistic.

[SA210]

SA210 is BuddyHolly as well? Didn't he try to make his own forum 210 something? Weak.
I don't know what you are talking about, a 210 forum?
I'm just posting my thoughts on this issue.

[cherylsteele]

Houston has what? A surbanite population with plenty of 30 and 40 year old Southern born males with disposable income who would have no problem with heading out to the track with some buddies to watch a race or hang out at home and catch it on the tube in the backyard while grilling up some burgers and downing some MGDs or whatever.

Have you ever been to Martinsville, Va.? That town is not so big 20-30,000 tops and it fills a NASCAR track all the time with fans from WVa., N. Carolina, and Virginia. Nope people won't travel to see NASCAR. I won't because I don't loke any car racing but......I do relize the exposure the city will recieve, the money those fans will bring in will be nice for the city. Those thay don't think it will fly here still don't think we should have raised the roof to HemisFair Arena in the 70's.

[cherylsteele]

Cities like Miami can't even come up with the funds to build a 38000 seat stadium for a team that has won 2 world series championships in the last 10 years, .

According to MLB....the Marlins have only one once......where is the other one? After they won they had a "fire sale".

[j-6]

According to MLB....the Marlins have only one once......where is the other one? After they won they had a "fire sale".

They beat the Yankees in 2003.

[cherylsteele]

Yeah, it's rather hard to pretend that SA offers a much more appealing demographic profile than Houston.
Then why did houston get an NFL expansion team over LA? LA is much bigger...oh yeah I forgot population is the reason. :rolleyes

[cherylsteele]

They beat the Yankees in 2003.
That is the one....Sequ said they won 2....where is the other one? In any sport.

[j-6]

They won in 1997 over Cleveland.

[cherylsteele]

Significantly fewer of them would show.
Including you?....that is maybe.....one fewer.

How do you know this? Heck people come to the Alamo bowl all the way from Michigan, Ohio, and other points beyond....they aren't all that close.

[cherylsteele]

They won in 1997 over Cleveland.
sorry....you're right...the way it was listed on their website I didn't see it at first.....I had forgotten it.....that first one was the "Fire Sale".

I am not a big baseball fan so I don't follow alot of that.

[cherylsteele]

What about Atlanta? they have a sports complex and they have hosted the olympics?

According to the list that you just posted, Miami would top it in a heartbeat.
Does that also make Lake Placid, Salt Lake City, etc. sports towns? They held the olympics too.

[cherylsteele]

How so? There are about triple the number of Joe Bobs in the Houston metro area as there are in SA. Lest we forget the proximity to East Texas and Louisiana.
Where is the census count on this figure....or are you just making these numbers up?

[TheWriter]

SA210 is BuddyHolly as well? Didn't he try to make his own forum 210 something? Weak.

Manny, might wanna ask Kori or LJ if I'm SA210.

And BTW, I did buy a domain name: Insidethe210.com

I'm working on Vbulletin to get the forum going.

Again, ask Kori, it's that simple dip.

[ChumpDumper]

Buddy would have to be going through considerable pains to also be SA210.

[SequSpur]

sorry....you're right...the way it was listed on their website I didn't see it at first.....I had forgotten it.....that first one was the "Fire Sale".

I am not a big baseball fan so I don't follow alot of that.

Don't be trying to correct me.

[SA210]

Buddy would have to be going through considerable pains to also be SA210.
What do you mean?

[ChumpDumper]

You aren't the same guy.

[spurs_2108]

I want to see some renderings (sp?). I have dial up so the video is to slow.

[cherylsteele]

Don't be trying to correct me.
You know....talking down to people for a miistake still doesn't mske the basis of you argument correct.

Altough this is typical of you anyways so I am not surprised.

[SequSpur]

You know....talking down to people for a miistake still doesn't mske the basis of you argument correct.

Altough this is typical of you anyways so I am not surprised.

Happy Thanksgiving Cheryl!!!