A Future of No Talented Bigs

[Mr. Body]

A massive part of the Spurs' identity has been superior post play. Since 1989, we've had at least one incredible big man on the roster. LaMarcus Aldridge may have been on his last legs, but still drew his weight since Tim retired. Now that Aldridge is gone, our roster is without anyone of note in the paint for the first time in thirty-two years.

The game has changed and we've loaded up with guards. Whether or not they pan out, this seems like it contributes to the sense of malaise. Circumstance and the changing game has forced a culture change, but what is the culture? With Popovich leaving at some point, the culture will change even more, and the long era of greatness in the post and hard defense will recede further in the mirror.

Certainly feels strange.

[Chinook]

I'm still hoping the Spurs sign Collins. The Hawks adding yet another PF is a potential sign they are still bracing for John's departure. Maybe SA will have to give up something to get him on an S&T, but at this point, it'd be worth it. Star bigs are really hard to come by. So in a way, I don't want to be too made at PATFO for going with guards. I personally thought there was good big-man talent still left on the board at 12, but there wasn't someone who'd replicate any of the bigs of old. So yeah, Collins.

[RC_Drunkford]

the culture of the Spurs is heavy wine drinking by the FO. Bringing in good character guys while basketball skill is secondary and getting Pop the alltime winning record. That's the culture. I been saying they need a change in that department, but Spurs gonna Spurs

[pad300]

I'm still hoping the Spurs sign Collins. The Hawks adding yet another PF is a potential sign they are still bracing for John's departure. Maybe SA will have to give up something to get him on an S&T, but at this point, it'd be worth it. Star bigs are really hard to come by. So in a way, I don't want to be too made at PATFO for going with guards. I personally thought there was good big-man talent still left on the board at 12, but there wasn't someone who'd replicate any of the bigs of old. So yeah, Collins.

I suspect they throw a Max at Collins. Their's no-one else close to worth it, even on potential, and they have to spend the money somewhere to get to the floor... Not too sure the Hawks will match.

[vy65]

I'm still hoping the Spurs sign Collins. The Hawks adding yet another PF is a potential sign they are still bracing for John's departure. Maybe SA will have to give up something to get him on an S&T, but at this point, it'd be worth it. Star bigs are really hard to come by. So in a way, I don't want to be too made at PATFO for going with guards. I personally thought there was good big-man talent still left on the board at 12, but there wasn't someone who'd replicate any of the bigs of old. So yeah, Collins.

What's the point of that though? To compete? If so, then why draft a 3-5 year project (at least) in Primo and why let your vets walk in free agency for nothing--something that seems highly likely. I have no problems committing to a rebuild with long term projects, and I have no problem with using cap space to build a winning team. I do have a problem of dabbling in both directions since it'll (highly probably) end in a failure. This is what several people have been saying: there doesn't seem to be a clear sense of purpose in the FO, and that's troubling.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Toronto is following a rebuild philosophy of drafting the long wings that have potential. We're filling up our stable with guards. Let's see who becomes relevant again first.

If DDR and Gay are both off the team next season, this will easily be our weakest roster since the Spurs joined the league.

[Chinook]

What's the point of that though? To compete? If so, then why draft a 3-5 year project (at least) in Primo and why let your vets walk in free agency for nothing--something that seems highly likely. I have no problems committing to a rebuild with long term projects, and I have no problem with using cap space to build a winning team. I do have a problem of dabbling in both directions since it'll (highly probably) end in a failure. This is what several people have been saying: there doesn't seem to be a clear sense of purpose in the FO, and that's troubling.

So exstatic said it best: Primo was a lottery pick next year. So the Spurs signing Collins means they can tank for a lottery pick next year while not actually tanking. I don't know if you saw my A) B) C) post when it came to drafting stars, but Primo is closer to a C) than a B) and might've been an A) if he waited until next year. In English I mean he has a role-player ceiling as a floor spacer who should hold his own on defense. That's good for a player who has a ton of upside in terms of his body and mind. So you draft him and sign Collins and hope Primo can do spot minutes as a shooter for a year, a solid rotation player in year two and then eventually be a top option of the team in year three. If you aren't going to tank, you have to be willing to be patient with prospects, but you can't afford to just sign raw guys, since you need rotation players. So drafting a guy who can fit into the puzzle now and hopefully be a key part of it in the future makes sense.

The issue isn't going to be whether the Spurs are tanking or trying to win now. That's always been a false dilemma. The issue will be if the Spurs are willing to move on from their prospects to improve their long-term position, and if they can't trade guys like Murray, Walker or White and can't tell the different between the decent players and the top prospects on the team, then they have little hope of turning things around. Primo is talented enough to get minutes right away. If he doesn't because the Spurs insist on keep giving all the minutes to mediocre guards, then they're in trouble.

[Ditty]

We will be in the running for Chet and Paola next draft. We will get our big man then.

[vy65]

So exstatic said it best: Primo was a lottery pick next year. So the Spurs signing Collins means they can tank for a lottery pick next year while not actually tanking. I don't know if you saw my A) B) C) post when it came to drafting stars, but Primo is closer to a C) than a B) and might've been an A) if he waited until next year. In English I mean he has a role-player ceiling as a floor spacer who should hold his own on defense. That's good for a player who has a ton of upside in terms of his body and mind. So you draft him and sign Collins and hope Primo can do spot minutes as a shooter for a year, a solid rotation player in year two and then eventually be a top option of the team in year three. If you aren't going to tank, you have to be willing to be patient with prospects, but you can't afford to just sign raw guys, since you need rotation players. So drafting a guy who can fit into the puzzle now and hopefully be a key part of it in the future makes sense.

The issue isn't going to be whether the Spurs are tanking or trying to win now. That's always been a false dilemma. The issue will be if the Spurs are willing to move on from their prospects to improve their long-term position, and if they can't trade guys like Murray, Walker or White and can't tell the different between the decent players and the top prospects on the team, then they have little hope of turning things around. Primo is talented enough to get minutes right away. If he doesn't because the Spurs insist on keep giving all the minutes to mediocre guards, then they're in trouble.

That's some incredibly convoluted logic. For example: "Spurs signing Collins means they can tank while not actually tanking?" That's nonsensical bordering on asinine. Collins is a good-to-great player who fits a need for the team. He will help win games. Winning games dampens the chance of a higher pick in the draft. So no, drafting Collins does not mean they can tank. What it means is that they'll continue on the treadmill approach they've adopted so far - winning a B- to B range of games that puts them in the late lottery, again, so they can take mediocre talent, again.

All that is to say that the dilemma is in no way false. Your suggestion of the possibility of trading a Murray, Walker, or White is completely off base because nothing the team has done suggests that's on their radar. If the prospect of trading them were real, why would they not have done so with LMA or Rudy or DDR when it became apparent this team was going to barely scrape into the playoffs? Why not trade Lonnie or Murray or DW4 on draft night for future draft assets or another long-term project? There is literally no evidence to support the belief that anyone is being traded.

Rather, everything points to them continuing to be a treadmill team. And that's really really bad.

[Chinook]

That's some incredibly convoluted logic. For example: "Spurs signing Collins means they can tank while not actually tanking?" That's nonsensical bordering on asinine. Collins is a good-to-great player who fits a need for the team.

What I was saying is that people want the Spurs to tank so they can get a top pick next year. But if Primo was going to be a top pick next year, then they don't have to tank, because they already got him this year. The effect is the same, except they'd have Collins instead of whoever else they'd take this year. They get the effect of tanking next year without having to tank.


All that is to say that the dilemma is in no way false. Your suggestion of the possibility of trading a Murray, Walker, or White is completely off base because nothing the team has done suggests that's on their radar.

The dilemma is not false just because you don't believe the Spurs will trade Murray et al. What they actually do, and what they can do with the options laid out before them are obviously different things. More importantly, that's such an irrelevant rebuttal. There's a false dilemma between tanking and being win-now, because you can do neither. You may not want them to do neither, but it's something teams do, including ones that end up becoming good teams later on. One of the most straight-forward ways to do that is to take guys you have to hope develop later in the draft so that you can avoid having to get the sure-fire players earlier in the draft. I think folks intuitively understood that when they were pushing for Poku last year. The difference is, Primo being able to play NBA minutes isn't really a stretch, since he can shoot and has good size. So they the Spurs can use him even if he doesn't become a star, his floor is higher than people suggest, and we'll have to see about his ceiling.


Rather, everything points to them continuing to be a treadmill team. And that's really really bad.

Being a treadmill team isn't bad. MKE and PHX were both treadmill teams who improved to contenders with changes in coaching and some good acquisitions. Dallas was a treadmill team for a long time. The thing is you have to be opportunistic and not sentimental when you're at that stage. Falling in love with your mediocre guys and not trying to improve won't cut it. We both probably agree there. The issue is you're trying to claim that we should assume the Spurs won't properly navigate mediocrity the way I want them to while also assuming they'd tank the way you want them to. It's hypocritical as hell.

[SAGirl]

I posted this elsewhere but it seems proper here.
https://www.davisenterprise.com/files/2012/12/Hobbit-1W.jpg
I think part of the sense of dejection is roster construction for sure. To me Primo looks like a good prospect. In absence of context I really like what his skillset, his youth and potential to improve, but the FO thought he was the BPA available so we will have to log that in for future reference if others taken later surpass their expectations for them, specially players with more size and a different kind of game.

They will just have to get aggressive in FA and the trade market to balance things out eventually. I think even the players eventually may feel they are underperforming because they aren’t set up to succeed.

[dbestpro]

Popovich has always salivated over playing small ball and winning as the underdog. Make no mistake. This team is structured around Pops ego.

[SAGirl]

Toronto is following a rebuild philosophy of drafting the long wings that have potential. We're filling up our stable with guards. Let's see who becomes relevant again first.

If DDR and Gay are both off the team next season, this will easily be our weakest roster since the Spurs joined the league.

Agree and I think you are a realist in the roster evaluation. Taking the rosy colored glasses off.

[Prime BEEF]

the culture of the Spurs is heavy wine drinking by the FO. Bringing in good character guys while basketball skill is secondary and getting Pop the alltime winning record. That's the culture. I been saying they need a change in that department, but Spurs gonna Spurs
This. And tanking or going 0-82 won’t matter. I have zero confidence that the FO would pick the right player at #1. Will never know but I’d be curious who they would pick if they had the #1 pick this year

[daslicer]

What I was saying is that people want the Spurs to tank so they can get a top pick next year. But if Primo was going to be a top pick next year, then they don't have to tank, because they already got him this year. The effect is the same, except they'd have Collins instead of whoever else they'd take this year. They get the effect of tanking next year without having to tank.



The dilemma is not false just because you don't believe the Spurs will trade Murray et al. What they actually do, and what they can do with the options laid out before them are obviously different things. More importantly, that's such an irrelevant rebuttal. There's a false dilemma between tanking and being win-now, because you can do neither. You may not want them to do neither, but it's something teams do, including ones that end up becoming good teams later on. One of the most straight-forward ways to do that is to take guys you have to hope develop later in the draft so that you can avoid having to get the sure-fire players earlier in the draft. I think folks intuitively understood that when they were pushing for Poku last year. The difference is, Primo being able to play NBA minutes isn't really a stretch, since he can shoot and has good size. So they the Spurs can use him even if he doesn't become a star, his floor is higher than people suggest, and we'll have to see about his ceiling.



Being a treadmill team isn't bad. MKE and PHX were both treadmill teams who improved to contenders with changes in coaching and some good acquisitions. Dallas was a treadmill team for a long time. The thing is you have to be opportunistic and not sentimental when you're at that stage. Falling in love with your mediocre guys and not trying to improve won't cut it. We both probably agree there. The issue is you're trying to claim that we should assume the Spurs won't properly navigate mediocrity the way I want them to while also assuming they'd tank the way you want them to. It's hypocritical as hell.

PHX was not a treadmill team they were terrible that's how they got Ayton with the number 1 pick. Best example of why being a treadmill team for a long period sucks is the Charlotte Hornets before they got Ball. Hornets were the ultimate treadmill team during the Kemba Walker era and never showed any drastic improvement to break the cycle of being a treadmill team. They got lucky in last year's draft getting the third pick when I believe they were projected to get the 10th or 11th. Had they not gotten the third pick that resulted in Ball then they are still stagnant right now instead of now being on the upswing.

[Chinook]

PHX was not a treadmill team they were terrible that's how they got Ayton with the number 1 pick. Best example of why being a treadmill team for a long period sucks is the Charlotte Hornets before they got Ball. Hornets were the ultimate treadmill team during the Kemba Walker era and never showed any drastic improvement to break the cycle of being a treadmill team. They got lucky in last year's draft getting the third pick when I believe they were projected to get the 10th or 11th. Had they not gotten the third pick that resulted in Ball then they are still stagnant right now instead of now being on the upswing.

The Suns were totally a treadmill team. They just were so incompetent that their treadmill broke. But Booker and Bridges were late-lottery picks, as was Cam Johnson. Just as the Mavs and Hornets got high picks, being a treadmill team doesn't actually prevent a team from getting prospects. They just have to be willing to make that move for the right player when they get the chance and not have too much loyalty to their meh guys on their roster.

There's a difference between being a capped-out treadmill team that has moved multiple firsts for band-aids that don't work out and a treadmill team that has a lot of assets and expirings at any given time. The Spurs should model themselves after the latter case, but if they aren't willing to trade Murray, they'll be in the former category. They should only have a core of two or three players at a time. Primo, Vassell and Johnson are basically that core now. Maybe White can be seen as taking one of those spots from the other guys. Regardless, outside of that core, they should be looking to use the rest to improve their position, both in a win-now and in a win-later sense. Once you have like five, six or seven guys in your "core" with none of them being close to an All-Star, you have lost the script. You don't have to trade away all of those non-core players. But you need to do whatever you can to turn the C/D/C core into an A/A/A one.

[daslicer]

The Suns were totally a treadmill team. They just were so incompetent that their treadmill broke. But Booker and Bridges were late-lottery picks, as was Cam Johnson. Just as the Mavs and Hornets got high picks, being a treadmill team doesn't actually prevent a team from getting prospects. They just have to be willing to make that move for the right player when they get the chance and not have too much loyalty to their meh guys on their roster.

There's a difference between being a capped-out treadmill team that has moved multiple firsts for band-aids that don't work out and a treadmill team that has a lot of assets and expirings at any given time. The Spurs should model themselves after the latter case, but if they aren't willing to trade Murray, they'll be in the former category. They should only have a core of two or three players at a time. Primo, Vassell and Johnson are basically that core now. Maybe White can be seen as taking one of those spots from the other guys. Regardless, outside of that core, they should be looking to use the rest to improve their position, both in a win-now and in a win-later sense. Once you have like five, six or seven guys in your "core" with none of them being close to an All-Star, you have lost the script. You don't have to trade away all of those non-core players. But you need to do whatever you can to turn the C/D/C core into an A/A/A one.

Mavs were pretty much trash for nearly a whole decade after winning it all in '11. They gave their fans nothing to be excited about for 7 years. Suns were trash for 10 years after 2010. Hornets started the Kemba era in 2011 and it ended in 2019. They didn't finally get a good talent in Ball until 2020 draft. In all of these team's cases it took them around 10 years to be relevant and on the upswing again. I know people hate tanking but really what's the point of being tread mill team if it's going to take until 2030 to be relevant again. You can tank for 10 straight years and end up eventually with legit talent vs treadmilling.

[vy65]

What I was saying is that people want the Spurs to tank so they can get a top pick next year. But if Primo was going to be a top pick next year, then they don't have to tank, because they already got him this year. The effect is the same, except they'd have Collins instead of whoever else they'd take this year. They get the effect of tanking next year without having to tank.

I agree that there's a logic there (although it's one I'm not quite sure I personally agree with). That said, this point was by no means clear from what you said earlier. And I'm still struggling how Collins fits into all this. Yes, you can claim that Primo is a 2022 lotto pick (still not sure I agree with that). But that has nothing to do with Collins harming SAS's 2022 pick. You're conflating the '21 and '22 picks.


The dilemma is not false just because you don't believe the Spurs will trade Murray et al. What they actually do, and what they can do with the options laid out before them are obviously different things. More importantly, that's such an irrelevant rebuttal. There's a false dilemma between tanking and being win-now, because you can do neither. You may not want them to do neither, but it's something teams do, including ones that end up becoming good teams later on. One of the most straight-forward ways to do that is to take guys you have to hope develop later in the draft so that you can avoid having to get the sure-fire players earlier in the draft. I think folks intuitively understood that when they were pushing for Poku last year. The difference is, Primo being able to play NBA minutes isn't really a stretch, since he can shoot and has good size. So they the Spurs can use him even if he doesn't become a star, his floor is higher than people suggest, and we'll have to see about his ceiling.

Again, you're conflating things. You had originally said: "The issue will be if the Spurs are willing to move on from their prospects to improve their long-term position, and if they can't trade guys like Murray, Walker or White and can't tell the different between the decent players and the top prospects on the team, then they have little hope of turning things around." There is little to no evidence suggesting the Spurs are willing to "move on from their prospects to improve" nor is there any indication that they'd like to "trade guys like Murray, Walker, etc..." The issue isn't what they actually do, it's what they must to. If the plan was to start a rebuild, they must have (but didn't) move pieces like LMA for value. They didn't. Instead, they opted to remain competitive, and the results are last night. That's why rebuilding vs. competing is zero-sum.

Again, this all relates back to you conflating picks. Yes, you can take a guy now and hope he develops along a long horizon. That doesn't mean you should get a guy like Collins who'll dampen the strength of your subsequent pick.


Being a treadmill team isn't bad. MKE and PHX were both treadmill teams who improved to contenders with changes in coaching and some good acquisitions. Dallas was a treadmill team for a long time. The thing is you have to be opportunistic and not sentimental when you're at that stage. Falling in love with your mediocre guys and not trying to improve won't cut it. We both probably agree there. The issue is you're trying to claim that we should assume the Spurs won't properly navigate mediocrity the way I want them to while also assuming they'd tank the way you want them to. It's hypocritical as hell.

You're lost. Being a treadmill team is the definition of bad. I don't think MKE with Giannis or PHX with Ayton, the #1 pick in 18, could possibly count. This is borderline disingenuous.

[vy65]

Sun's Draft History
2013: 3 picks, 2 firsts, #5 pick,
2014: 4 picks, 3 firsts, #14 pick
2015: 2 picks, 1 first, #13 pick (Booker)
2016: 4 picks, 3 firsts, #4 pick
2017: 3 picks, 2 firsts, #4 pick
2018: 4 picks, 2 firsts, #1 pick (Ayton)
2019: 2 picks, 1 first, #10

Suns Record:

2018-19 Suns 19-63 .232 15th, West Conference - - DNQ
2017-18 Suns 21-61 .256 15th, West Conference - - DNQ
2016-17 Suns 24-58 .293 15th, West Conference - - DNQ
2015-16 Suns 23-59 .280 14th, West Conference - - DNQ
2014-15 Suns 39-43 .476 10th, West Conference - - DNQ
2013-14 Suns 48-34 .585 9th, West Conference - - DNQ
2012-13 Suns 25-57 .305 15th, West Conference

lol treadmill team

[spurspl]

This. And tanking or going 0-82 won’t matter. I have zero confidence that the FO would pick the right player at #1. Will never know but I’d be curious who they would pick if they had the #1 pick this year

Easy, Primo bc in Italian it means first

[SAGirl]

Team Sengun is looking promkding. It is summer league but he's looking like he'll be somebody.

[the golden era]

Team Sengun is looking promkding. It is summer league but he's looking like he'll be somebody.
I was over the moon when he fell to us, and then fell flat on my face when the passed on him. We weren’t alone in that mistake but sure looked like a no brainer considering the state of the roster. Hope this isn’t like Scola where we rue the day for years.

[The Truth #6]

Still lots of time to figure out Primo, I admit, but presently I already doubt it was the right pick. I try to talk myself into it. I’m still trying to talk myself into Vassel over Haliburton. Seems like Sengun was a no brainer but we took the path less traveled. I really want Primo to do well. But yeah.

[slick'81]

Am i missing something? Or didnt JC resign with atl? Why are people still acting like hes an option?:lol

[exstatic]

Toronto is following a rebuild philosophy of drafting the long wings that have potential. We're filling up our stable with guards. Let's see who becomes relevant again first.

If DDR and Gay are both off the team next season, this will easily be our weakest roster since the Spurs joined the league.

87-88,88-89, and 96-97 would like a word.

[Seventyniner]

87-88,88-89, and 96-97 would like a word.

If we're going with semantics, I wouldn't call the roster in 96-97 weak. It was injuries, not lack of talent, that did the Spurs in that season.

This is certainly looking like the weakest Spurs roster, talent-wise, in decades. The Spurs have had at least a borderline All-Star level talent on the roster every year since Robinson joined. This includes DeRozan and Aldridge in recent years. The only way I can see the Spurs getting an All-Star this year is if Murray or White makes a huge leap and starts putting up big numbers, and I don't see that as being very likely at all.

[The Truth #6]

If we're going with semantics, I wouldn't call the roster in 96-97 weak. It was injuries, not lack of talent, that did the Spurs in that season.

This is certainly looking like the weakest Spurs roster, talent-wise, in decades. The Spurs have had at least a borderline All-Star level talent on the roster every year since Robinson joined. This includes DeRozan and Aldridge in recent years. The only way I can see the Spurs getting an All-Star this year is if Murray or White makes a huge leap and starts putting up big numbers, and I don't see that as being very likely at all.

Even before Robinson we had Alvin Robertson as an All Star and obviously Ice before that. In this narrow criteria of having a an All Star on the team, this could be the first time EVER. Which is amazing.

Obviously, we need a star, but I am sort of ok with an egalitarian approach to a team while getting back to contention and eventually having a star. But way less interested in drafting poorly. Let’s hope Primo is a fan favorite and isn’t recovering from injuries by the time he can legally drink.

But I digress...

[Seventyniner]

Even before Robinson we had Alvin Robertson as an All Star and obviously Ice before that. In this narrow criteria of having a an All Star on the team, this could be the first time EVER. Which is amazing.

Obviously, we need a star, but I am sort of ok with an egalitarian approach to a team while getting back to contention and eventually having a star. But way less interested in drafting poorly. Let’s hope Primo is a fan favorite and isn’t recovering from injuries by the time he can legally drink.

But I digress...

Good points. My Spurs fandom started when Robinson came into the league, so I don't know a lot about the team prior to that.

Bkref shows that Alvin Robertson made the All-Star team in 86-87 and 87-88, and while he missed it in 88-89 his stats weren't much different than 86-87 so "borderline All-Star" seems like an apt descriptor. You're quite right that, given my criterion, this year's Spurs team might be the worst one ever. Amazing.

Primo appears to have been a rather big gamble. Those are an unfortunate necessity in the Spurs' position.

[MultiTroll]

With Popovich leaving at some point, the culture will change even more, and the long era of greatness in the post and hard defense will recede further in the mirror.

Certainly feels strange.
Let's get you off your sniffing Pops shorts habit.
California luxury addiction rehab (sunshinebehavioralhealth.com) (https://www.sunshinebehavioralhealth.com/bca/california/addiction/?_bt=&_bk=treatment%20for%20crack%20addiction&_bm=e&_bn=o&msclkid=6c0d6f7172e51520dec20e655784e472&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bing%20California%20Test&utm_term=treatment%20for%20crack%20addiction&utm_content=Addiction)

.jpg of Patty n Bryn defending on the floor at the same time.



the culture of the Spurs is heavy wine drinking by the FO. Bringing in good character guys while basketball skill is secondary and getting Pop the alltime winning record. That's the culture. I been saying they need a change in that department, but Spurs gonna Spurs
The defense will undoubtedly massively pick up if ever Grandpa retires / passes away.

[MultiTroll]

Primo appears to have been a rather big gamble. Those are an unfortunate necessity in the Spurs' position.
I did not save the link but thought it was a reputable source that had OKC or some other team not far behind the Spurs as going after Primo.

[John B]

87-88,88-89, and 96-97 would like a word.
Wow that puts it in real persoective. But I hated the Forbes/Beli/Mills combo the most, so you should put 19-20

[John B]

Even before Robinson we had Alvin Robertson as an All Star and obviously Ice before that. In this narrow criteria of having a an All Star on the team, this could be the first time EVER. Which is amazing.

Obviously, we need a star, but I am sort of ok with an egalitarian approach to a team while getting back to contention and eventually having a star. But way less interested in drafting poorly. Let’s hope Primo is a fan favorite and isn’t recovering from injuries by the time he can legally drink.

But I digress...

If nothing else happens from now until game 1, I swear Spurs would be Sacramentoville. Damn, this is like bizzare universe. I’ve been a Spurs fan since DRob rookie year. The last two seasons have been unimaginable. It might just get worse.

Fuck you Kawhi… oh and you too Brian! :bang Whose fuckin nephew is he anyways??

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

87-88,88-89, and 96-97 would like a word.

I posted that right after my post-draft meltdown but before the FA signings and the Demar S&T. So, agreed, probably not our WORST roster ever at this point. Free agent signings and the aforementioned trade probably got us up two or three notches from "horrible" to "not competitive".

If this ends up being the group we go with I'd say we'll land in the 25-35 win range.