Spurs Need Less T-Rex, More Pterodactyl

[TD 21]

Out of players expected to be on the team, Walker IV (doesn't utilize it), Murray and to a lesser extent Young (likely here for a cup of coffee) and Wieskamp (two-way) are the only ones with a notable height to length differential . . .

Aminu: 7'3.25''
Bates-Diop: 7'3.25''
Poeltl: 7'2.75''
Landale: 7'2''
Collins: 7'1''
Hutchinson: 7'1''
Young: 6'11'.5''
Eubanks: 6'11''
Wieskamp: 6'11''
Samanic: 6'10.5''
Walker IV: 6'10.25''
Vassell: 6'10''
Murray: 6'9.5''
Johnson: 6'9.25''
McDermott: 6'9.25''
Primo: 6'9.25''
White: 6'7.5''
Forbes: 6'5''
Jones: 6'4''

Yes, some of them play bigger than their size (Murray with his rebounding, White with his shot blocking, Johnson with his strength) and some have a standing reach that belies their relative lack of length, but there are reasons most teams prioritize it: Defensive disruption/play making/rebounding, shot blocking/rim protection and finishing.

[offset formation]

me Tarzan, you Jane

[tim_duncan_fan]

I feel like it's been this way for 10 years. The front office is just allergic to size, along with their fear of speed and athleticism.

[Dejounte]

IMO,

In terms of importance (physical traits only),

Perimeter players:
Lateral Quickness > Wingspan > Standing Reach > Height > Strength

-3's are the name of the game. If you can't stay in front of your man, expect that player to blow by you and for your teammate to cover leaving someone wide open for a 3. Thus, Lateral quickness is the most important.
-Wingspan helps with pass deflections, intimidation on passing, DHO's
-Standing reach is most important for disrupting shot attempts whether by making them take an uncomfortable shot, or straight up blocking their shot.
-Height to see over players... not that important by itself, but usually when you're tall it assumes you already have decent enough wingspan and standing reach.
-Strength is really, really not important unless you're matched up with a player who is also a bruiser inside (Kawhi)

Interior players:
Lateral Quickness > Strength > Standing Reach > Height > Wingspan

-This is the modern NBA. Interior players are asked to step outside of the paint. Lateral Quickness is still very important, or you're not being played during crucial moments.
-Strength as a big is super important. While we have quicker interior players in the modern NBA, you'll find that almost all of them are really strong and can back you down.
-Standing reach - When you play inside, you mostly have your hands up and not horizontal. When you cover the weakside, it's all vertical. When you're guarding a post player, it's all vertical.
-If we're talking about a defensive anchor a la Gobert or Poeltl, height is important. When you're matched up one-on-one with a bruising big, height is important.
-I just fail to see where wingspan is important for a big (4's and 5's) unless they're on the perimeter on most possessions. Even then, wingspan won't help if you're not quick enough laterally. So it's all about striking a healthy balance.

If we were to be honest, offensive and defensive awareness would go first in line and would trump every physical trait there is. Guys like White, Davion Mitchell, Jrue Holiday are very unimpressive physically relative to other players but are some of the best defenders in the NBA.

And I do acknowledge Keldon is currently an inadequate defender who lacks in lateral quickness right now, which puts him in a very odd spot as far as what his role should be. I'm not advocating for him to be a PF full-time... but I'm unlike some here who thinks he should never play a minute at that position because it "hurts the team". On some occasions, sure. But that's the game of basketball.... you adjust to your match-ups. Keldon should play SF when there's a clear strength advantage for him and Keldon should play PF when he's playing against another big wing like him (which is amazingly common and most people are in denial about) or playing against a tall big who is too slow to keep up with him on the perimeter. All of these things can be true. I'd say the PF position in this day and age is 50/50 between my descriptions for perimeter players and interior players above.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Did not look up player height to figure out the differential

[BacktoBasics]

Today’s game is an embarrassment to the real game of basketball.

We’ll see how serious the league is about putting an end to the offensive flopping foul inducing bullshit but my guess is that it’s all just lip service.

Maybe they should hold a combine for how good these guys are at video game basketball because that’s basically what this game has become.

[TD 21]

-I just fail to see where wingspan is important for a big (4's and 5's) unless they're on the perimeter on most possessions. Even then, wingspan won't help if you're not quick enough laterally. So it's all about striking a healthy balance.

If that were true, the majority of the best shot blockers, rim protectors and defensive rebounders wouldn't be long armed relative to height and vice versa.

[The Truth #6]

Sure, it’s important and helpful. But without context isn’t this sort of like (coughs politely) another version of a counting stat?

[niraj2000]

Since nephew's departure Spurs are severely lacking in secondary defender/shot blocker. Giannis, Lebron, Durant all play this role. I am hoping Thad, Luka, KBD can grow into this role.

[R. DeMurre]

I don't understand what happened with Aminu's meniscus, and why it has so seriously derailed his play... for some that's one year off and then back to business as usual, but in his case there seems to be lingering problems, and a follow up "minor procedure" after the initial surgery. It's a shame, because his last year with Portland was the best of his career, and he was sizing up as a legitimate starter & positive force. It'd be a pretty wild turn of events though if it were Aminu rather than Zollins who was able to return from a couple years of injury issues and have an impact.

[The Truth #6]

I don't understand what happened with Aminu's meniscus, and why it has so seriously derailed his play... for some that's one year off and then back to business as usual, but in his case there seems to be lingering problems, and a follow up "minor procedure" after the initial surgery. It's a shame, because his last year with Portland was the best of his career, and he was sizing up as a legitimate starter & positive force. It'd be a pretty wild turn of events though if it were Aminu rather than Zollins who was able to return from a couple years of injury issues and have an impact.

It’s a legitimate point. Somehow seeing Zollins future as significantly brighter than Aminu’s is more about PR and hopes than anything else.

[Gibbz]

There was no one in the draft 6'4 or shorter with a bigger standing reach than Primo.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Thank you Dejounte for the nice analysis!

[TD 21]

Sure, it’s important and helpful. But without context isn’t this sort of like (coughs politely) another version of a counting stat?

It doesn't require context and besides, only pussies and assholes use other users catch phrases.

[duncan2k5]

I've been saying this for a while... Pop is confused about small ball... He thinks he has to adapt to the time and "play small"... So he literally gets small players...

Small ball was coined in an era where players who could shoot and dribble were usually guards and wing players... Now that's different... U can play big and still be versatile... All the teams that win rings have been big and versatile... I can't think of one team that was small and won... Even the warriors had 7 foot centers and a 7 foot SF to offset Green's lack of height... When they lost their height advantage with an injured Bogot in 2016, they lost a 3-1 lead vs a bigger Cavs team

[Manu&Duncan fan]

I've been saying this for a while... Pop is confused about small ball... He thinks he has to adapt to the time and "play small"... So he literally gets small players...

Small ball was coined in an era where players who could shoot and dribble were usually guards and wing players... Now that's different... U can play big and still be versatile... All the teams that win rings have been big and versatile... I can't think of one team that was small and won... Even the warriors had 7 foot centers and a 7 foot SF to offset Green's lack of height... When they lost their height advantage with an injured Bogot in 2016, they lost a 3-1 lead vs a bigger Cavs team

You lost all your argument by the Bogot injury stuff. He was not the reason. Remember Green was suspended one game.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

After the Green suspension, warrior lost game 6 and lost their momentum.

[The Truth #6]

It doesn't require context and besides, only pussies and assholes use other users catch phrases.

Yawn.

The context is how does long arms impact winning at basketball. Otherwise, you’re just sharing an awkward fetish.

[TD 21]

Yawn.

The context is how does long arms impact winning at basketball. Otherwise, you’re just sharing an awkward fetish.

I take it you've never ventured "downstairs".


but there are reasons most teams prioritize it: Defensive disruption/play making/rebounding, shot blocking/rim protection and finishing.

:wakeup

[XDT76]

After the Green suspension, warrior lost game 6 and lost their momentum.

Green was no longer allowed to kick players in their balls after that.

[TD 21]

29th in defensive efficiency, 30th in defensive field goal %, 29th in defensive 3-point %, with a starting lineup that supposedly has four good defenders and no sieve and a rotation that supposedly only has one of the latter.

This is what happens when you don't prioritize length and athleticism.

[KingKev]

29th in defensive efficiency, 30th in defensive field goal %, 29th in defensive 3-point %, with a starting lineup that supposedly has four good defenders and no sieve and a rotation that supposedly only has one of the latter.

This is what happens when you don't prioritize length and athleticism.

Our starting lineup ia vastly overrated regarding defensive ability. It’s great that they play on both sides if the ball because many players don’t even do that but I’m not convinced Vassell is really a 2 way player. Tre is too small to really impact the defensive end. Jak is rock sokid but still has his limitations. Keldon just doesn’t have it. Sochan has the intangibles to be a sound defender but it’s still very early.

The effort is there however.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Tre is too small to really impact the defensive end.
Patrick Beverley, Rajon Rondo and Chris Paul are 6'7" tall?

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630200/by-position
https://sun9-31.userapi.com/impg/BV1_RBM2zKSK3YYMlcoV_WB9XaV7gGTN8hDUQg/c2ix1vTizKA.jpg?size=1270x199&quality=96&sign=e729ac791c82da116b4ca1268ea50b72&type=album

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630200/defense-dash
https://sun9-19.userapi.com/impg/21NPLDnaJrmDu_fleZMU_VmJYcymKQcAwFDu-w/LUscnZP203U.jpg?size=1266x257&quality=96&sign=bc8aa3df7dca63fa9a005f7a263c38bb&type=album

[Vince Carter's ankle]

1589001752564862977

[KingKev]

Patrick Beverley, Rajon Rondo and Chris Paul are 6'7" tall?

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630200/by-position
https://sun9-31.userapi.com/impg/BV1_RBM2zKSK3YYMlcoV_WB9XaV7gGTN8hDUQg/c2ix1vTizKA.jpg?size=1270x199&quality=96&sign=e729ac791c82da116b4ca1268ea50b72&type=album

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630200/defense-dash
https://sun9-19.userapi.com/impg/21NPLDnaJrmDu_fleZMU_VmJYcymKQcAwFDu-w/LUscnZP203U.jpg?size=1266x257&quality=96&sign=bc8aa3df7dca63fa9a005f7a263c38bb&type=album

I’m more arguing Tre is a solid defender but I’m not confident he’s going to go out there each night and be one of your lockdown defenders across 2-3 positions.

[wildbill2u]

i watched the Austin Spurs game last night. That Bassey is a beast and shoulld be tried out on the big club asap. He's listed on one website as 6'9, the same as Barlow, but he looks a couple of inches taller and a very burly 230. But the proof is in the stats and he is killing it on rebounding and blocks per game. Besides some defensive prowess he can get his points by battling under the boards. He's had a little experience in the last couple of years and I think he knows how to play by using his big body and athleticism.

[CGD]

29th in defensive efficiency, 30th in defensive field goal %, 29th in defensive 3-point %, with a starting lineup that supposedly has four good defenders and no sieve and a rotation that supposedly only has one of the latter.

This is what happens when you don't prioritize length and athleticism.

Where’s the “bend over” guy when you need him?

[CGD]

i watched the Austin Spurs game last night. That Bassey is a beast and shoulld be tried out on the big club asap. He's listed on one website as 6'9, the same as Barlow, but he looks a couple of inches taller and a very burly 230. But the proof is in the stats and he is killing it on rebounding and blocks per game. Besides some defensive prowess he can get his points by battling under the boards. He's had a little experience in the last couple of years and I think he knows how to play by using his big body and athleticism.

Does that mean Bassey is more Pterodactyl than T-Rex, as it were?

[Chinook]

I don't think RAPTOR is stable yet, but according to this early release, Tre Jones is having an incredible defensive year. NBA.com's tracking backs that up, and Jones is one of the best on the team in terms of deflections, DFGs, charges draw, and loose balls recovered. I don't think the basic logic of this thread is wrong. Sochan is up there with Jones in a lot of categories, and Langford makes a positive appearance in a couple. But Vassell is theoretically the guy who best fits that model, and he's been a mixed bag. Johnson, who after Jones would be the most obvious guy to point to, is meh so far. That's actually an improvement over last year, but he's still ultimately a mixed bag where some stats love him and some despise him.

I think it's easy to see a defense like Toronto's and just assume that is paradigmatic. But the great Spurs' defenses from 2011-2017 weren't based on a bunch of long athletic guys. Their famed defensive duo was around league average in terms of explosiveness, though Green, Leonard and Duncan all have pretty good wingspans for their positions. Diaw was a competent positional defender, and Splitter was very good at multiple aspects. But we are talking about guys like Parker, Mills and Beli in the rotation. If you just listed off the physical data for the rosters, I'm not sure that I would pick 2014's Spurs over this year's iteration. I don't see them having a good defense as something particularly encumbered by the measurements of the guys in the rotation.

[TD 21]

Our starting lineup ia vastly overrated regarding defensive ability. It’s great that they play on both sides if the ball because many players don’t even do that but I’m not convinced Vassell is really a 2 way player. Tre is too small to really impact the defensive end. Jak is rock sokid but still has his limitations. Keldon just doesn’t have it. Sochan has the intangibles to be a sound defender but it’s still very early.

The effort is there however.

Despite the cliche, defense is far more about physical tools than effort and the Spurs are lacking across the board.

The only players with the height to wingspan ratio to potentially be impactful are fringe players (Bates-Diop, Roby, Langford, Bassey) or projects (Barlow) and the only explosive athlete is a prospect/project (Wesley) and even he isn't really a vertical one.



I think it's easy to see a defense like Toronto's and just assume that is paradigmatic. But the great Spurs' defenses from 2011-2017 weren't based on a bunch of long athletic guys. Their famed defensive duo was around league average in terms of explosiveness, though Green, Leonard and Duncan all have pretty good wingspans for their positions. Diaw was a competent positional defender, and Splitter was very good at multiple aspects. But we are talking about guys like Parker, Mills and Beli in the rotation. If you just listed off the physical data for the rosters, I'm not sure that I would pick 2014's Spurs over this year's iteration. I don't see them having a good defense as something particularly encumbered by the measurements of the guys in the rotation.

Like virtually everything Craptors, their defense has generally been overrated.

No, the '11-'17 Spurs were only based on probably the greatest team defender in history anchoring them (who had a pterodactyl wingspan), one of the greatest wing defenders in history (ditto), two other excellent defenders with good positional size and two heady types with solid positional size.

That was also a different era where you could get away with a bunch of liabilities so long as you had the great anchor.

[Chinook]

Like virtually everything Craptors, their defense has generally been overrated.

No, the '11-'17 Spurs were only based on probably the greatest team defender in history anchoring them (who had a pterodactyl wingspan), one of the greatest wing defenders in history (ditto), two other excellent defenders with good positional size and two heady types with solid positional size.

That was also a different era where you could get away with a bunch of liabilities so long as you had the great anchor.

Tim's wingspan is impressive but not superlative. Literally the first defensive center I thought of (Steven Adams) had the same. Gorgui Dieng's wingspan is slightly shorter, but the height-wingspan difference is the same. Duncan was definitely one of the true driving forces behind those defenses during the early years, though. He was the best phonebooth defender in the league, and the team was able to get guys into that phone booth. But the difference between the before years and those great defensive years was the improved quality of their wings. Those wings carried over to the great defenses after Tim retired. Leonard was a pterodactyl, and Green was a bit above-average. But they didn't fit your mold. I'm wiling to accept 2011-2015 as the previous era. But after Golden State and the D'Antoni/Harden Rockets arrived, they were definitely in this era, and the Spurs were still a great defense. I think the game has changed so, to the point where Diaw would always be a starter over Splitter. But I don't believe that era of Spurs defense is very vulnerable to era. It was one of the most versatile units of all time. I don't disagree that guys like Beli might be more targeted, but I also remember teams targeting Parker to their own peril.

Jones is playing very good defense. We know Poeltl is a good defender, and Collins has been a good backup on that end. Sochan is a rookie and will get better but is already a good defender. Richardson, McDermott, Bates-Diop and Roby can be upgraded on that end, hopefully by some of those guys just starting to play better. That leaves Vassell and Johnson. I don't know that Keldon can do it physically, and he might be that guy who just has to hold on and make it up on the other end. Vassell, as I said, still grades out well in some metrics, but he might well be a case where his defense is suffering from his new role. Hopefully as he adjusts and the talent around him improves, he can be a two-way player. The most important aspect to their defensive issues is likely chemistry from guys being new, or in different roles from both a leadership and strategic perspective. There's hope that a young unit figures it out on that end. This is as much a part of playing a rebuilding roster than the sloppy offense.

[TD 21]

Tim's wingspan is impressive but not superlative. Literally the first defensive center I thought of (Steven Adams) had the same. Gorgui Dieng's wingspan is slightly shorter, but the height-wingspan difference is the same. Duncan was definitely one of the true driving forces behind those defenses during the early years, though. He was the best phonebooth defender in the league, and the team was able to get guys into that phone booth. But the difference between the before years and those great defensive years was the improved quality of their wings. Those wings carried over to the great defenses after Tim retired. Leonard was a pterodactyl, and Green was a bit above-average. But they didn't fit your mold. I'm wiling to accept 2011-2015 as the previous era. But after Golden State and the D'Antoni/Harden Rockets arrived, they were definitely in this era, and the Spurs were still a great defense. I think the game has changed so, to the point where Diaw would always be a starter over Splitter. But I don't believe that era of Spurs defense is very vulnerable to era. It was one of the most versatile units of all time. I don't disagree that guys like Beli might be more targeted, but I also remember teams targeting Parker to their own peril.

Jones is playing very good defense. We know Poeltl is a good defender, and Collins has been a good backup on that end. Sochan is a rookie and will get better but is already a good defender. Richardson, McDermott, Bates-Diop and Roby can be upgraded on that end, hopefully by some of those guys just starting to play better. That leaves Vassell and Johnson. I don't know that Keldon can do it physically, and he might be that guy who just has to hold on and make it up on the other end. Vassell, as I said, still grades out well in some metrics, but he might well be a case where his defense is suffering from his new role. Hopefully as he adjusts and the talent around him improves, he can be a two-way player. The most important aspect to their defensive issues is likely chemistry from guys being new, or in different roles from both a leadership and strategic perspective. There's hope that a young unit figures it out on that end. This is as much a part of playing a rebuilding roster than the sloppy offense.

6'10'' barefoot with a 7'5'' wingspan is superlative, as is 6'6'' barefoot with a 7'3'' wingspan and while neither was an explosive/freak athlete, they both put it to good use. The former with his shot blocking and overall rim protection as well as defensive rebounding and the latter with his on and off ball steals, deflections and defensive rebounding relative to position.

'15-'17 was the early portion of the era and suffice it to say, things have gotten more extreme since then in many ways.

All excuses. Defense isn't rocket science, of their preferred rotation only Sochan is new to it at this level, and he's advanced at least relative to experience.

The personnel is supposed to be good defensively yet is terrible across the board (20th in d-rebound% and turnover%, 26th in free throw %).

[KingKev]

Defense is both physical attributes and effort. How you weight one or the other is where the science/art comes in.

[mystargtr34]

1589001752564862977

Posted about this in another thread a few days ago, the Spurs starting lineup of Jak-Sochan-Keldon-Devin-Tre is locking down defensively. 52 minutes the DTRG is 103.7. Sample size is still relatively small but 52 minutes is enough to get some indication of where its going to be. The question is can that lineup score enough.

ORTG - 108.9
DRTG - 103.7

The problem is the next two most used lineups have a DRTG of around 120. What's weird is that both these lineups have 4 of the above 5 starters in them (Jak-Sochan-Keldon-Tre). One lineup is with Richardson in place of Vassell and the other with Branham in place of Vassell. Seems that Vassell in the SL is pretty important defensively.

5-man lineups above 50 minutes played.
https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*G*50&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

All Spurs lineups
https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612759/lineups-advanced

[Ice009]

6'10'' barefoot with a 7'5'' wingspan is superlative, as is 6'6'' barefoot with a 7'3'' wingspan and while neither was an explosive/freak athlete, they both put it to good use. The former with his shot blocking and overall rim protection as well as defensive rebounding and the latter with his on and off ball steals, deflections and defensive rebounding relative to position.

Who's are these measurements? Tim and Kawhi? Great thread btw.

[KingKev]

Speaking of dinos looks like OP’s step daddy did it again with Koloko (that SRP we sent them
in the Thad trade).

He had 6 bocks last night.

[Chinook]

6'10'' barefoot with a 7'5'' wingspan is superlative, as is 6'6'' barefoot with a 7'3'' wingspan and while neither was an explosive/freak athlete, they both put it to good use. The former with his shot blocking and overall rim protection as well as defensive rebounding and the latter with his on and off ball steals, deflections and defensive rebounding relative to position.

'15-'17 was the early portion of the era and suffice it to say, things have gotten more extreme since then in many ways.

All excuses. Defense isn't rocket science, of their preferred rotation only Sochan is new to it at this level, and he's advanced at least relative to experience.

The personnel is supposed to be good defensively yet is terrible across the board (20th in d-rebound% and turnover%, 26th in free throw %).

No, it's just solidly above average. Have you ever bothered to look this up? I feel like we specifically had this discussion years ago. The average difference been shoeless height and wingspan for NBA players is over six inches. Leonard's nine is exceptional, but as I pointed out, Tim is in line with guys like Adams and Dieng. Also, you're pushing for difference rather than overall length as is being shorter with the same wingspan is somehow more beneficial. It's not like of Kawhi were 6-10 like George he'd've been a worse defender.

As you noted yourself, on paper the team has the tools to be a good defensive team. That is to say, they aren't suffering from a lack of length or athleticism. The starters even have performed at that level despite guys like Roby, Collins and KBD are closer to your paradigm. It's much more likely that the Spurs can learn to be a good defense with the personnel they have than them improving by getting rid lf Johnson and Jones for folks with longer arms.

[TD 21]

Speaking of dinos looks like OP’s step daddy did it again with Koloko (that SRP we sent them
in the Thad trade).

He had 6 bocks last night.

:lmao Most athletic rim runners have solid or better metrics and he was the obvious pick as a 1st round caliber prospect on a team in desperate need of a true C.

In other words, more luck.



No, it's just solidly above average. Have you ever bothered to look this up? I feel like we specifically had this discussion years ago. The average difference been shoeless height and wingspan for NBA players is over six inches. Leonard's nine is exceptional, but as I pointed out, Tim is in line with guys like Adams and Dieng. Also, you're pushing for difference rather than overall length as is being shorter with the same wingspan is somehow more beneficial. It's not like of Kawhi were 6-10 like George he'd've been a worse defender.

As you noted yourself, on paper the team has the tools to be a good defensive team. That is to say, they aren't suffering from a lack of length or athleticism. The starters even have performed at that level despite guys like Roby, Collins and KBD are closer to your paradigm. It's much more likely that the Spurs can learn to be a good defense with the personnel they have than them improving by getting rid lf Johnson and Jones for folks with longer arms.

7'5'' is still one of the bigger wingspans and Duncan has greater differential than Adams and Dieng.

I'm "pushing" for both.

No, I said they have a lot of players with a reputation for being good defenders, yet the team has vacillated between bad and terrible in recent years and it can no longer be blamed on physically limited designated shooter starting and playing significant minutes.

I know you like to dispute everything I say, but it's logical to conclude their lack of athleticism and length has played a part and likely significantly so.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs just been getting burned by fast guards. Nobody on this team was able to guard Bones Hyland. That's all you need to know about the "defense"

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

As soon as the Spurs had players go down you knew we’d start losing. This team is like a house of cards. Can’t pull any out without the whole thing falling apart.

We flipped when Devin went down. His minutes restriction probably cost us a win, and losing Primo took away our only backup at point. It’s a team really built around three NBA starters, two veteran bench guys (one who can’t defend at all) an ok point guard, and not much else. We’re three hall of famers away from being the Lakers. I’m amazed we’ve won five games tbh.

[exstatic]

Spurs just been getting burned by fast guards. Nobody on this team was able to guard Bones Hyland. That's all you need to know about the "defense"

Vassell did pretty well, but you don’t want to waste starter minutes guarding a bench guy.