Robert Horry Is At It Again (Dream Is Better Than TD)

[Thomas82]

Since Horry didn't leave the Spurs on good terms, along with the fact that he was young and impressionable when he played with Dream, I take what he says with a grain of salt. Here's the article:

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/former-spur-robert-horry-hakeem-olajuwon-better-player-spurs-great-tim-duncan-san-antonio-rockets-houston/273-5de6e829-4c61-4e2d-862b-cd1efe62f9a3?fbclid=IwAR0den4w0EyaeSyvw0RwPhB3fKC3 j-GC_WTKlD_QLkMkIMKHKW6_MVFkjps

[lmbebo]

Also said he received death threats from SA spurs fans for that opinion.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Meh, another dude trying to stay relevant with corny opinions. As he should , seeing that Kendrick Perkins is being shown live over and over.

[Thomas82]

Also said he received death threats from SA spurs fans for that opinion.

Yeah, I saw that. Ridiculous!!

[Russ]

It's officially the off season.

[Flawless]

The death threats are stupid, over a fucking opinion :lol. Let the old man have his thoughts and move on.

[exstatic]

He and Jack need to put together a vaudeville act, and take it on the road. The Bitter Bitches.

[SpursDynasty85]

Dude didn’t just say Olajuwon was better than Duncan he said he was 10x better. Obviously either looking to endear himself to Rocket fans or diss his SA base. I remember everyone else in the show was thinking “your crazy”. I understand why someone would think Olajuwon was better tbh. He is a top 10 player like Duncan.

[Extra Stout]

Olajuwon’s peak was higher than Duncan’s peak. Excuse-making aside, Olajuwon totally dominated two other Hall of Fame centers in the 1995 playoffs. He was head and shoulders above them.

In 1994, he carried an otherwise mediocre team to a championship, one where the second-best player was Otis Thorpe.

But before 1993 or so, he wasn’t “that guy” yet. Once Sampson broke down, the Rockets were middle-of-the-pack for years. Olajuwon didn’t make anyone better. He put up the numbers for years and years, but something just didn’t click until his early 30’s.

With Duncan, he came into the league and was “that guy” by the middle of his rookie year. And he stayed that way for almost 20 years, though towards the end he had to learn to pick his spots. But Duncan never totally dominated his peers for entire playoff series like Olajuwon did. There were a few games that stand out against the Lakers in ‘99 and ‘03. But his peak just wasn’t as high, though the totality of his career was probably better. That’s why Duncan is a consensus Top 10 all-time player, while Olajuwon is usually Top 15.

Horry was in Houston only for those peak Dream years. His opinion is understandable. Also, he carried the Spurs in the 4th quarter and overtime of the game that turned the ‘05 Finals around while Tim was making key mistakes down the stretch. Give him a break even if he’s being kind of a prick about it.

[Trill Clinton]

He's entitled to his opinion

[spurraider21]

its really not that outlandish a take

[daslicer]

its really not that outlandish a take

When you say Olaujuwon is 10X better it's pretty outlandish. Now if he said Olaujuwon was better then I would understand it even though I wouldn't agree with it.

[daslicer]

He and Jack need to put together a vaudeville act, and take it on the road. The Bitter Bitches.

I would say Kawhi,Jax,Horry are my 3 most hated former Spur players from championship teams. 2 out of 3 just are desperate for attention with the hyperbole they speak.

[Dirks_Finale]

its really not that outlandish a take

It isn't. As a non-spur fan I'd prefer Hakeem over Duncan as well. I feel like he was not as blessed as Tim in the supporting cast talent and still managed to go back to back.

That said, if he thinks Hakeem is 10x better then he is either trolling or high on something.

[daslicer]

Also said he received death threats from SA spurs fans for that opinion.

He's trying to sell that take for drama and attention. I'm sure he did a get a few death threats but I doubt he got hundreds and thousands of them.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

timmy's advanced stats >>> hakeem but yeah hakeem was god mode for 2 years, a peak duncan never reached (or maybe never had to reach because his teammates even in 03 were better)

hakeem is gohan and duncan is goku

[exstatic]

It isn't. As a non-spur fan I'd prefer Hakeem over Duncan as well. I feel like he was not as blessed as Tim in the supporting cast talent and still managed to go back to back.

That said, if he thinks Hakeem is 10x better then he is either trolling or high on something.

Hakeem was blessed with Jordan’s two year playoff absence.

[exstatic]

timmy's advanced stats >>> hakeem but yeah hakeem was god mode for 2 years, a peak duncan never reached (or maybe never had to reach because his teammates even in 03 were better)

hakeem is gohan and duncan is goku

There hasn’t been a player to take a crap team on his back to a title like 2003 Tim in the last 30 years. The second best player on that team was probably Jack. David was done, playing a Kawhi like schedule. Parker was probably 4-5 years from being dangerous. Manu was a rookie who missed a big chunk of the beginning of the season, and constantly clashed with Pop. B2B MVP years Duncan was a basketball god.

[TD 21]

Typical bitter Horry.

Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.

[R. DeMurre]

Olajuwon’s peak was higher than Duncan’s peak. Excuse-making aside, Olajuwon totally dominated two other Hall of Fame centers in the 1995 playoffs. He was head and shoulders above them.

In 1994, he carried an otherwise mediocre team to a championship, one where the second-best player was Otis Thorpe.

But before 1993 or so, he wasn’t “that guy” yet. Once Sampson broke down, the Rockets were middle-of-the-pack for years. Olajuwon didn’t make anyone better. He put up the numbers for years and years, but something just didn’t click until his early 30’s.

With Duncan, he came into the league and was “that guy” by the middle of his rookie year. And he stayed that way for almost 20 years, though towards the end he had to learn to pick his spots. But Duncan never totally dominated his peers for entire playoff series like Olajuwon did. There were a few games that stand out against the Lakers in ‘99 and ‘03. But his peak just wasn’t as high, though the totality of his career was probably better. That’s why Duncan is a consensus Top 10 all-time player, while Olajuwon is usually Top 15.

Horry was in Houston only for those peak Dream years. His opinion is understandable. Also, he carried the Spurs in the 4th quarter and overtime of the game that turned the ‘05 Finals around while Tim was making key mistakes down the stretch. Give him a break even if he’s being kind of a prick about it.

I pretty much agree with you here, but I also think it's important to mention that Duncan's main nemesis-- Prime Shaq-- was a more dominant & better all around player than Hakeem's main rivals-- Pre-Prime Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc...

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

There hasn’t been a player to take a crap team on his back to a title like 2003 Tim in the last 30 years. The second best player on that team was probably Jack. David was done, playing a Kawhi like schedule. Parker was probably 4-5 years from being dangerous. Manu was a rookie who missed a big chunk of the beginning of the season, and constantly clashed with Pop. B2B MVP years Duncan was a basketball god.

i'm fooling around with some stats on the 94 rockets team and the 2003 spurs team and outside of hakeem and tim :vomit:

almost equally crap tbh

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html

[goliath]

There hasn’t been a player to take a crap team on his back to a title like 2003 Tim in the last 30 years. The second best player on that team was probably Jack. David was done, playing a Kawhi like schedule. Parker was probably 4-5 years from being dangerous. Manu was a rookie who missed a big chunk of the beginning of the season, and constantly clashed with Pop. B2B MVP years Duncan was a basketball god.

This. People look back and go oh parker and manu and Robinson were on that team. Tim had three hall of famers. Don’t realize David was a shell of himself and at best was a serviceable starter, Tony was in his second year and was regularly benched in close games and manu was a rookie bench player averaging 7 points a game. That team was all Tim

[Down Under]

It seems to take a long time for certain player's ego to recover after they're told not good enough to play anymore. Almost 15 years for Rob.

[daslicer]

It seems to take a long time for certain player's ego to recover after they're told not good enough to play anymore. Almost 15 years for Rob.

Stephen Jackson and Horry both suffer from the same thing.

[Down Under]

Stephen Jackson and Horry both suffer from the same thing.
So fragile & insecure. It's amazing

[Thomas82]

Typical bitter Horry.

Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.

All of this!!

[LakerHater]

he said he was better than Tim at practice!

PRACTICE!

[Ice009]

Olajuwon’s peak was higher than Duncan’s peak. Excuse-making aside, Olajuwon totally dominated two other Hall of Fame centers in the 1995 playoffs. He was head and shoulders above them.

In 1994, he carried an otherwise mediocre team to a championship, one where the second-best player was Otis Thorpe.

But before 1993 or so, he wasn’t “that guy” yet. Once Sampson broke down, the Rockets were middle-of-the-pack for years. Olajuwon didn’t make anyone better. He put up the numbers for years and years, but something just didn’t click until his early 30’s.

With Duncan, he came into the league and was “that guy” by the middle of his rookie year. And he stayed that way for almost 20 years, though towards the end he had to learn to pick his spots. But Duncan never totally dominated his peers for entire playoff series like Olajuwon did. There were a few games that stand out against the Lakers in ‘99 and ‘03. But his peak just wasn’t as high, though the totality of his career was probably better. That’s why Duncan is a consensus Top 10 all-time player, while Olajuwon is usually Top 15.

Horry was in Houston only for those peak Dream years. His opinion is understandable. Also, he carried the Spurs in the 4th quarter and overtime of the game that turned the ‘05 Finals around while Tim was making key mistakes down the stretch. Give him a break even if he’s being kind of a prick about it.

A young Tim Duncan could have dominated those guys Hakeem went against in those two peak years of Hakeem's. Who exactly did Hakeem dominate in those runs? I can't think of many great Centers/PFs he went through apart from D-rob, Ewing and a young Shaq. D-rob had a shitty coach and was getting triple teamed while Hakeem got single coverage. Patrick Ewing who I was never really impressed by in the 90s and a very young Shaq. I guess he also went against Karl Malone, but TD by his second year started to dominate Malone worse than Olajuwon did.

I really do think a prime/young Tim Duncan could have done very similar against those opponents. I doubt Hakeem would have dominated prime Shaq, KG, Dirk any better than Tim if he had to go up against those guys. I will say Hakeem's two peak years were a touch better than Tim's, but I don't believe by much. Overall, for their entire careers, no way I'd put Olajuwon above Duncan.

[Michael Jordan.]

Elle said Dream was better too

[Michael Jordan.]

A young Tim Duncan could have dominated those guys Hakeem went against in those two peak years of Hakeem's. Who exactly did Hakeem dominate in those runs? I can't think of many great Centers/PFs he went through apart from D-rob, Ewing and a young Shaq. D-rob had a shitty coach and was getting triple teamed while Hakeem got single coverage. Patrick Ewing who I was never really impressed by in the 90s and a very young Shaq. I guess he also went against Karl Malone, but TD by his second year started to dominate Malone worse than Olajuwon did.

I really do think a prime/young Tim Duncan could have done very similar against those opponents. I doubt Hakeem would have dominated prime Shaq, KG, Dirk any better than Tim if he had to go up against those guys. I will say Hakeem's two peak years were a touch better than Tim's, but I don't believe by much. Overall, for their entire careers, no way I'd put Olajuwon above Duncan.
Hakeem getting single coverage is a lie.

[Ice009]

its really not that outlandish a take

It's not outlandish? It's a fucking retarded take. His two peak years were a bit better than Tim's, but overall, no way is his career better than Tim's. To say he's 10 x better, that is a fucking retarded take. Horry is saying some stupid shit.


timmy's advanced stats >>> hakeem but yeah hakeem was god mode for 2 years, a peak duncan never reached (or maybe never had to reach because his teammates even in 03 were better)

hakeem is gohan and duncan is goku

Ahh Tim's 2003 title team is not better overall than either of the Rocket's Championship teams (at best it's on par).


There hasn’t been a player to take a crap team on his back to a title like 2003 Tim in the last 30 years. The second best player on that team was probably Jack. David was done, playing a Kawhi like schedule. Parker was probably 4-5 years from being dangerous. Manu was a rookie who missed a big chunk of the beginning of the season, and constantly clashed with Pop. B2B MVP years Duncan was a basketball god.

Very True. Finally some decent takes from actual Spurs fans.


Typical bitter Horry.

Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.

Yep. I agree 100%. People are overrating those two Olajuwon seasons massively. He was great. It's debatable whether or not it's much better than Tim's best, but it sure as fuck is not 10 x better.


I pretty much agree with you here, but I also think it's important to mention that Duncan's main nemesis-- Prime Shaq-- was a more dominant & better all around player than Hakeem's main rivals-- Pre-Prime Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc...

Very true. I mentioned something similar above. A Prime Shaq and Kobe may have dismantled those Rockets teams. D-Rob gets such as bad wrap for that one series. Head to heat he won a lot more against the Rockets than Hakeem did against the Spurs. In that playoff series Hakeem did not guard D-Rob straight up and D-Rob had to try and guard him one on one mostly as there was no-one else on the Spurs that could help him. Rodman checked out at the start of that series.


This. People look back and go oh parker and manu and Robinson were on that team. Tim had three hall of famers. Don’t realize David was a shell of himself and at best was a serviceable starter, Tony was in his second year and was regularly benched in close games and manu was a rookie bench player averaging 7 points a game. That team was all Tim


Yep. I'm not sure how Spurs fans are forgetting this stuff.


Hakeem getting single coverage is a lie.

Well, I am sure he was doubled at times, but D-Rob had no help so the Rockets could do it most of the series and get away with it. Rodman checked out and was no threat to score, so that's already one extra defender to send at D-Rob and then you had the shitty Spurs guards where you could also send one of those defender's D-rob's way too. Really, those Spurs teams were vastly inferior to the Rockets and D-Rob was in a tough situation to try and get them over the line by himself.

[Biggems]

He played with both players when they were at their best. He has a valid opinion. We can agree or disagree freely. The thing is, Dream was a Center. Duncan was a PF. Dream was more athletically gifted, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound. Also, not once during Duncan's career did anyone ever question his commitment to the team, but that happed with Dream a few times in his career, I believe once in the late 80s and once in the early 90s.

[Michael Jordan.]

He played with both players when they were at their best. He has a valid opinion. We can agree or disagree freely. The thing is, Dream was a Center. Duncan was a PF. Dream was more athletically gifted, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound. Also, not once during Duncan's career did anyone ever question his commitment to the team, but that happed with Dream a few times in his career, I believe once in the late 80s and once in the early 90s.
Well to be fair, Duncan was a Doc Rivers away from signing with Orlando.

[Michael Jordan.]

Typical bitter Horry.

Olajuwon is the Bryant of big men, constantly overrated because of a combination of aesthetics and nostalgia.

As the catch all metrics bear out, Duncan both peaked higher and had greater longevity. The better debate is Olajuwon vs Robinson.
Untrue. Duncan’s peak was not as high. Also when you think of longevity, you need to credit Pop some for that. His minutes started dropping around the age of 28. AND, not every coach would have rested Duncan after that injury in 2000.

[Ice009]

He played with both players when they were at their best. He has a valid opinion. We can agree or disagree freely. The thing is, Dream was a Center. Duncan was a PF. Dream was more athletically gifted, but Duncan was more fundamentally sound. Also, not once during Duncan's career did anyone ever question his commitment to the team, but that happed with Dream a few times in his career, I believe once in the late 80s and once in the early 90s.

I disagree. He played with Hakeem at his best, but he was on the Lakers when Tim was at his best athletically & physically.

2004, Horry let Tim down with that bricked 3 in game 5 that led to that Fisher bullshit that never should have counted (we're still owed a game 7 at the very least). 2005, Tim had a badly sprained ankle going into those playoffs (I remember seeing a picture someone got hold of and posted just before the playoffs and it looked pretty bad), then, he sprained the other good one before the finals against the Sonics in game 6 in Seattle, so despite Horry bailing him out in game 5, Tim wasn't anywhere near 100% going into those finals and had to go up against one of the best defensive front courts in NBA history who dismantled the Lakers the year before and also added another really good front court player in Antonio McDyess for 2005, so I thought Tim did pretty darn good in that series considering both his ankles weren't good at all. I don't know if any other big man in NBA history could have done what Tim did in those finals against that front court with two sprained ankles (I'm sure that limited his post moves in the finals as he was primarly a post player, and one of the best. I remember in the regular season game in SA against Detroit, Tim was moving around very well against them when his ankles were fine. Had a big dunk in that game). 2006, Tim had plantar fasciitis and was still the best player in the playoffs ahead of Dirk, D-wade and Shaq. Spurs got screwed in the series due to Pop's stupidly and the bullshit fouls in games 3 & 4 of the 4th quarters in Dallas. 2007, Tim was starting to slow down athletically as you'd see the following two years in 2008 as his knee really starting to bother him during that playoff series against the Lakers and got worse in 2009 where he was basically on one leg in the Dallas series), so yeah, Horry did not play with Tim at his best. Sorry, I disagree.

Since Horry is making outlandish statements, I'm going to make one of my own. If Tim was the same athletically/physically as he was between '98-'03, to say 2011 (Hakeem still had most of his athleticism for about 12-13 seasons before he dropped off), he would have shit all over Olajuwon's career. As it stands, Tim still had the better career as he was just that smart and able to adjust his game despite his physical deficits during certain playoff runs when he was still in his prime, but also when his knee issues got worse in what would have been the tail end of his prime, so he had to change his overall game earlier than he would have probably liked to. Tim was still young in 2009, but his bad knee was done by then and he couldn't play like his younger self. I am guessing Hakeem was a very similar age in 1994 & 1995 playoffs to what Tim was in 2008/2009, the big difference being Hakeem still had a lot of his athleticism and Tim's knee was shot by then. Give Tim the same athleticism he had in his early days for the same length of time Hakeem had his, you'd see an even bigger between the two's careers.

[exstatic]

Hakeem getting single coverage is a lie.

Nope. That was the plan, all along: play the shooters, and let Dream get his. Rodman apparently didn’t get the memo. They ran this same strategy against the Suns the next decade, and when everyone was dialed in, it worked.

[Michael Jordan.]

I disagree. He played with Hakeem at his best, but he was on the Lakers when Tim was at his best athletically & physically.

2004, Horry let Tim down with that bricked 3 in game 5 that led to that Fisher bullshit that never should have counted (we're still owed a game 7 at the very least). 2005, Tim had a badly sprained ankle going into those playoffs (I remember seeing a picture someone got hold of and posted just before the playoffs and it looked pretty bad), then, he sprained the other good one before the finals against the Sonics in game 6 in Seattle, so despite Horry bailing him out in game 5, Tim wasn't anywhere near 100% going into those finals and had to go up against one of the best defensive front courts in NBA history who dismantled the Lakers the year before and also added another really good front court player in Antonio McDyess for 2005, so I thought Tim did pretty darn good in that series considering both his ankles weren't good at all. I don't know if any other big man in NBA history could have done what Tim did in those finals against that front court with two sprained ankles (I'm sure that limited his post moves in the finals as he was primarly a post player, and one of the best. I remember in the regular season game in SA against Detroit, Tim was moving around very well against them when his ankles were fine. Had a big dunk in that game). 2006, Tim had plantar fasciitis and was still the best player in the playoffs ahead of Dirk, D-wade and Shaq. Spurs got screwed in the series due to Pop's stupidly and the bullshit fouls in games 3 & 4 of the 4th quarters in Dallas. 2007, Tim was starting to slow down athletically as you'd see the following two years in 2008 as his knee really starting to bother him during that playoff series against the Lakers and got worse in 2009 where he was basically on one leg in the Dallas series), so yeah, Horry did not play with Tim at his best. Sorry, I disagree.

Since Horry is making outlandish statements, I'm going to make one of my own. If Tim was the same athletically/physically as he was between '98-'03, to say 2011 (Hakeem still had most of his athleticism for about 12-13 seasons before he dropped off), he would have shit all over Olajuwon's career. As it stands, Tim still had the better career as he was just that smart and able to adjust his game despite his physical deficits during certain playoff runs when he was still in his prime, but also when his knee issues got worse in what would have been the tail end of his prime, so he had to change his overall game earlier than he would have probably liked to. Tim was still young in 2009, but his bad knee was done by then and he couldn't play like his younger self. I am guessing Hakeem was a very similar age in 1994 & 1995 playoffs to what Tim was in 2008/2009, the big difference being Hakeem still had a lot of his athleticism and Tim's knee was shot by then. Give Tim the same athleticism he had in his early days for the same length of time Hakeem had his, you'd see an even bigger between the two's careers.
Again. All lies. Pop saved Duncan from himself in 2000. He cut his minutes around the age of 28 and started playing less minutes. Duncan didn’t do that by himself. And it’s really not outlandish of a statement. Hakeem was more athletic. Top 10 all time in steals and blocks. Won DPOY, MVP, and Finals MVP in the same season. Dropped 31? And 10 on Kareem and Worthy in his second season. If Sampson doesn’t get hurt, they beat Boston in 86.

[JeffDuncan]

Tim, 5 rings.
Hakeem, 2 rings.

/discussion

[TD 21]

Untrue. Duncan’s peak was not as high. Also when you think of longevity, you need to credit Pop some for that. His minutes started dropping around the age of 28. AND, not every coach would have rested Duncan after that injury in 2000.

You're right, it was higher. :lmao At counting stats without context.

I'd argue if not for Duncan basically being on one leg the back half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate.

[John B]

Tim, 5 rings.
Hakeem, 2 rings.

/discussion

It’s not fair, but the Dream did win when MJ took that semi-retirement :lol:lol. While Timmy beat Shaq/Kobe, Lebron/Wade in their prime. LeBron twice :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

It’s not fair, but the Dream did win when MJ took that semi-retirement :lol:lol. While Timmy beat Shaq/Kobe, Lebron/Wade in their prime. LeBron twice :lol
You’re talking about Team accomplishments yet fail to bring up also having Parker Kawhi and Ginobli beating that Miami squad. And Ginobli and Parker on that squad beating the 07 Cavs. Manu even had a case for Finals MVP in 05. Better player? Hakeem. Duncan wouldn’t be able to guard him.


Also, at Age 28. Tim has Parker and Manu. Now, Hakeem’s best teammates at that same age? Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell? :lol

So, when you bring up rings, you factor in, Duncan has had HOF help most of his career.

[Michael Jordan.]

You're right, it was higher. :lmao At counting stats without context.

I'd argue if not for Duncan basically being on one leg the back half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate.
So you aren’t counting stats in Peak years? Which years of Tim’s was his peak higher than Hakeem’s?

[Das Texan]

He and Jack need to put together a vaudeville act, and take it on the road. The Bitter Bitches.

Vernon Maxwell would like to join in on that act, tbh.

[baseline bum]

timmy's advanced stats >>> hakeem but yeah hakeem was god mode for 2 years, a peak duncan never reached (or maybe never had to reach because his teammates even in 03 were better)

hakeem is gohan and duncan is goku

No way, Olajuwon had a still in his prime Drexler next to him in 1995. No way Tim's 2003 supporting cast was better than Olajuwon's 1995 cast. Manu wasn't really Manu until that game in the 03-04 season where he dragged a Spurs team minus Tim and Tony to 2OT against the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers on national TV. 02-03 season he was nothing close to the player he became the next year.

[TD 21]

You’re talking about Team accomplishments yet fail to bring up also having Parker Kawhi and Ginobli beating that Miami squad. And Ginobli and Parker on that squad beating the 07 Cavs. Manu even had a case for Finals MVP in 05. Better player? Hakeem. Duncan wouldn’t be able to guard him.


Also, at Age 28. Tim has Parker and Manu. Now, Hakeem’s best teammates at that same age? Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell? :lol

So, when you bring up rings, you factor in, Duncan has had HOF help most of his career.

:lmao When Duncan was 28, Ginobili was just starting to ascend to stardom, while Parker had yet to.

Duncan is the only player in NBA history with more than 2 championships without an All-NBA teammate, with 4. In the early 00's, he almost singlehandedly kept a team in transition, with no second option, in championship contention, while ending the Lakers reign . . . despite having two other stars from '96-'98, Olajuwon couldn't even make it to the best of his era, let alone overcome him/them.



So you aren’t counting stats in Peak years? Which years of Tim’s was his peak higher than Hakeem’s?

Nah, I'm saying all you have are counting stats without context, aesthetics and nostalgia . . . I have catch all metrics which universally agree that '01-04 Duncan had a greater impact on winning than '92-95 Olajuwon.

[Michael Jordan.]

:lmao When Duncan was 28, Ginobili was just starting to ascend to stardom, while Parker had yet to.

Duncan is the only player in NBA history with more than 2 championships without an All-NBA teammate, with 4. In the early 00's, he almost singlehandedly kept a team in transition, with no second option, in championship contention, while ending the Lakers reign . . . despite having two other stars from '96-'98, Olajuwon couldn't even make it to the best of his era, let alone overcome him/them.




Nah, I'm saying all you have are counting stats without context, aesthetics and nostalgia . . . I have catch all metrics which universally agree that '01-04 Duncan had a greater impact on winning than '92-95 Olajuwon.
Lol Ginobli was an all star in 05 and Parker in 06. Both of them had damn good playoff runs in 05.

again, you can’t point to any time period where his peak was better. Because it wasn’t. Rebounding, steals, blocks, scoring. Nothing.

[TD 21]

Lol Ginobli was an all star in 05 and Parker in 06. Both of them had damn good playoff runs in 05.

again, you can’t point to any time period where his peak was better. Because it wasn’t. Rebounding, steals, blocks, scoring. Nothing.

You said 28, which encompassed '04-'05.

:lmao Still relying on counting stats without context in '21.

[Michael Jordan.]

You said 28, which encompassed '04-'05.

:lmao Still relying on counting stats without context in '21.
Was Ginobli not an all star that year? Top 10 in blocks and steals all time does have context. And again, in Hakeem’s peak nobody could really stop him.

[spurs10]

5>2

[Ice009]

I think a young Tim Duncan (when he was a lot more agile and had his elite lateral quickness for a guy his size) could have checked Hakeem (not saying he would have shut him down, but I also wonder if Hakeem could have guarded TD any better than TD guarding him). Tim was also on that US select team that pushed the US and he held his own against those All-star big men before being in the NBA. David Robinson (when he and Tim were going against each other in practice) said Tim was already better than him before Tim even played his first game for the Spurs. It's debateable that Hakeem was much better than D-rob let alone TD.

Anyway, I always used to say, if I were starting a team, I'd pick either TD or Prime Hakeem (I wouldn't pick Jordan as my first pick as I'd always start with a great big man that can play both offense and defense. I also want my big man to be skilled in the low post and be able to run offense through him if needed), having said that, Horry is really annoying me with these ridiculous takes (he's completely disrespecting TD for what reason, I don't know) and putting me off Olajuwon all together. Really, Hakeem only had a few years were he was great and put it all together. He wasn't anywhere near the leader TD was throughout his whole career and also was known to be very selfish earlier on. That is not conducive to winning anything. TD had it all from day one, and like TD21 said in a post above, if not for Tim's issues with his leg in the latter half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate at all IMO. TD basically won finals MVP in the 2013 finals (against a prime Lebron, Wade, Bosh) if not for that final 27 seconds where he was not even on the court. That is on one leg. Tim was also great in the 2014 playoffs (Spurs MVP for the whole playoff run despite Kawhi getting finals MVP ), and then you got the 2015 series against Clippers with an in prime Griffin and DeAndre Jordan at their athletic peaks and Tim almost got the Spurs over the line in that one too (despite his teammates like Kawhi, TP, Manu playing poorly). Hakeem was completely done once his athleticism was gone. Tim was still battling some amazing players when his was done as his basketball IQ was off the charts.

[lefty]

No way, Olajuwon had a still in his prime Drexler next to him in 1995. No way Tim's 2003 supporting cast was better than Olajuwon's 1995 cast. Manu wasn't really Manu until that game in the 03-04 season where he dragged a Spurs team minus Tim and Tony to 2OT against the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers on national TV. 02-03 season he was nothing close to the player he became the next year.
Drexler ws past his prime but he had a great playoff run in 95

[Michael Jordan.]

I think a young Tim Duncan (when he was a lot more agile and had his elite lateral quickness for a guy his size) could have checked Hakeem (not saying he would have shut him down, but I also wonder if Hakeem could have guarded TD any better than TD guarding him). Tim was also on that US select team that pushed the US and he held his own against those All-star big men before being in the NBA. David Robinson (when he and Tim were going against each other in practice) said Tim was already better than him before Tim even played his first game for the Spurs. It's debateable that Hakeem was much better than D-rob let alone TD.

Anyway, I always used to say, if I were starting a team, I'd pick either TD or Prime Hakeem (I wouldn't pick Jordan as my first pick as I'd always start with a great big man that can play both offense and defense. I also want my big man to be skilled in the low post and be able to run offense through him if needed), having said that, Horry is really annoying me with these ridiculous takes (he's completely disrespecting TD for what reason, I don't know) and putting me off Olajuwon all together. Really, Hakeem only had a few years were he was great and put it all together. He wasn't anywhere near the leader TD was throughout his whole career and also was known to be very selfish earlier on. That is not conducive to winning anything. TD had it all from day one, and like TD21 said in a post above, if not for Tim's issues with his leg in the latter half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate at all IMO. TD basically won finals MVP in the 2013 finals (against a prime Lebron, Wade, Bosh) if not for that final 27 seconds where he was not even on the court. That is on one leg. Tim was also great in the 2014 playoffs (Spurs MVP for the whole playoff run despite Kawhi getting finals MVP ), and then you got the 2015 series against Clippers with an in prime Griffin and DeAndre Jordan at their athletic peaks and Tim almost got the Spurs over the line in that one too (despite his teammates like Kawhi, TP, Manu playing poorly). Hakeem was completely done once his athleticism was gone. Tim was still battling some amazing players when his was done as his basketball IQ was off the charts.
Hakeem made the finals in his 2nd year, and Sampson got hurt. So, what wasn’t conducive to winning was teammates getting kicked out of the league for drug use, same shit the Lakers were doing.

[lefty]

Hakeem made the finals in his 2nd year, and Sampson got hurt. So, what wasn’t conducive to winning was teammates getting kicked out of the league for drug use, same shit the Lakers were doing.
:lol Classic David Stern tbh

Rockets and later Mavs got destroyed by drug suspensions - we are talking about the only 2 legit threats to the prime Showtime Lakers team in the West - but somehow the hard partying Lakers didn't get any
It was the 80s, everybody was doing Coke

[baseline bum]

Drexler ws past his prime but he had a great playoff run in 95

No he wasn't, he was like 32.

[lefty]

No he wasn't, he was like 32.
He was 32 and past his prime

[baseline bum]

He was 32 and past his prime

So Olajuwon was old and past his prime at 32 too?

[KayBee]

I think a young Tim Duncan (when he was a lot more agile and had his elite lateral quickness for a guy his size) could have checked Hakeem (not saying he would have shut him down, but I also wonder if Hakeem could have guarded TD any better than TD guarding him). Tim was also on that US select team that pushed the US and he held his own against those All-star big men before being in the NBA. David Robinson (when he and Tim were going against each other in practice) said Tim was already better than him before Tim even played his first game for the Spurs. It's debateable that Hakeem was much better than D-rob let alone TD.

Anyway, I always used to say, if I were starting a team, I'd pick either TD or Prime Hakeem (I wouldn't pick Jordan as my first pick as I'd always start with a great big man that can play both offense and defense. I also want my big man to be skilled in the low post and be able to run offense through him if needed), having said that, Horry is really annoying me with these ridiculous takes (he's completely disrespecting TD for what reason, I don't know) and putting me off Olajuwon all together. Really, Hakeem only had a few years were he was great and put it all together. He wasn't anywhere near the leader TD was throughout his whole career and also was known to be very selfish earlier on. That is not conducive to winning anything. TD had it all from day one, and like TD21 said in a post above, if not for Tim's issues with his leg in the latter half of his career, this wouldn't even be a debate at all IMO. TD basically won finals MVP in the 2013 finals (against a prime Lebron, Wade, Bosh) if not for that final 27 seconds where he was not even on the court. That is on one leg. Tim was also great in the 2014 playoffs (Spurs MVP for the whole playoff run despite Kawhi getting finals MVP ), and then you got the 2015 series against Clippers with an in prime Griffin and DeAndre Jordan at their athletic peaks and Tim almost got the Spurs over the line in that one too (despite his teammates like Kawhi, TP, Manu playing poorly). Hakeem was completely done once his athleticism was gone. Tim was still battling some amazing players when his was done as his basketball IQ was off the charts.

That's the mark of the superior player. When the body starts to fail, how do you adapt? Timmy did, Hakeem, not so much. /discussion.

[lefty]

So Olajuwon was old and past his prime at 32 too?
No not him
Drexler was

[lefty]

[/B]
That's the mark of the superior player. When the body starts to fail, how do you adapt? Timmy did, Hakeem, not so much. /discussion.
Tim also had a better team around him as he got older, and Pop rested him a lot, extending his career

[baseline bum]

No not him
Drexler was

Nonsense. Drexler was still a really high end shooting guard in 95. Olajuwon took a garbage supporting cast to a ring in 94 but that 95 team was no joke with Drexler replacing Maxwell and with Cassell and Horry having another year under their belts.

[TDfan2007]

Lol Ginobli was an all star in 05 and Parker in 06. Both of them had damn good playoff runs in 05.

again, you can’t point to any time period where his peak was better. Because it wasn’t. Rebounding, steals, blocks, scoring. Nothing.

When you account for pace, their peaks are much more comparable. People always forget that Timmy played his prime on one of the slowest paced teams in modern NBA history.

Duncan (01-03, per 100 possessions):
RS: 32.5 ppg 17.1 rpg 5.1 apg 3.6 bpg 1 spg, PER 27
Playoffs: 32.2 ppg 19.1 rpg 6.6 apg 4.8 bpg 0.8 spg, PER 29.3

Hakeem (93-95, per 100 possessions):
RS: 34.7 ppg 14.3 rpg 4.5 apg 4.5 bpg 2.2 spg, PER 25.6
Playoffs: 38.2 ppg 13.2 rpg 5.4 apg 4.2 bpg 1.8 spg, PER 27.2

At the end of the day, we're talking about two of the greatest players ever and I don't think there's a clear difference between either. Hakeem was a better score it seems and played passing lanes better on D, and Timmy was better or just as good in just about every other facet of the game.

To imply Hakeem was 10 times better is what makes a statement outlandish. If you want to argue that Hakeem was better overall, sure go for it. There's an argument to be made there, especially if you want to talk about peak performance, but it's VERY close, even at their peaks

[TDfan2007]

Hakeem deserves every bit of credit for out playing Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq during those title runs.

But let's not forget that Tim Duncan outplayed almost every single one of his peers in the playoffs between 01 and 05 (KG and Dirk in 01, Shaq and Dirk in 03, and Rasheed in 05). He never played against CWebb, but he handily outplayed him in the regular season matchups that they had.

And as someone pointed out, Hakeem never played against anyone as good as three-peat shaq. Timmy outplayed Shaq in 02 and 03, just didn't have help in 02. His second best player in that series was a rookie Tony Parker, and Shaq's sidekick was Kobe...not really fair lol

[Michael Jordan.]

Hakeem deserves every bit of credit for out playing Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq during those title runs.

But let's not forget that Tim Duncan outplayed almost every single one of his peers in the playoffs between 01 and 05 (KG and Dirk in 01, Shaq and Dirk in 03, and Rasheed in 05). He never played against CWebb, but he handily outplayed him in the regular season matchups that they had.

And as someone pointed out, Hakeem never played against anyone as good as three-peat shaq. Timmy outplayed Shaq in 02 and 03, just didn't have help in 02. His second best player in that series was a rookie Tony Parker, and Shaq's sidekick was Kobe...not really fair lol
Threepear Shaq was just bullying guys. Folks do forget 95 Shaq was no slouch either, and he was a lot quicker.

[baseline bum]

nm

[MultiTroll]

Can we discuss Horrys claim that he told Pop which D to run on the final Derek Swisher 0.4 play?
Popped did the opposite per Horry.

[exstatic]

Can we discuss Horrys claim that he told Pop which D to run on the final Derek Swisher 0.4 play?
Popped did the opposite per Horry.

The problem wasn’t the D, the problem was not starting the clock on time. The D was quite good, and the buzzer should have sounded with the ball still in Fish breaths hand.

[Ice009]

Can we discuss Horrys claim that he told Pop which D to run on the final Derek Swisher 0.4 play?
Popped did the opposite per Horry.

No way is anyone able to catch, turn and shoot in 0.4 seconds. The clock was started way too late. It never should have counted regardless of the defense.

What did Horry say about the defense, though? What did he tell Pop to do?

[MultiTroll]

The problem wasn’t the D, the problem was not starting the clock on time. The D was quite good, and the buzzer should have sounded with the ball still in Fish breaths hand.


No way is anyone able to catch, turn and shoot in 0.4 seconds. The clock was started way too late. It never should have counted regardless of the defense.

What did Horry say about the defense, though? What did he tell Pop to do?

“The funny part is if I’d have did what I wanted to do, we would’ve won that game.

“So Pop doesn’t like Kobe. He was like, ‘I don’t like him. I don’t want him to hit a game-winner,’ and so he says, ‘Rob, when Kobe comes off, just guard him.’

“I was like, ‘No, you want the ball to go away from the basket.’

“Where I was standing, Kobe comes off, I actually did this, ‘One thousand one, no I shouldn’t do it, (expletive) it, I gotta do what the coach says.’

“So I run over to Kobe, the spot I leave, kicks it right to Fish, Fish catches and turns. I’m looking to Pop the whole time like, ‘See, if you make ’em throw ’em out that way, away from the basket, going this way and turning,’ I’m like, ‘Really?’

“I was just shaking my head, and after that. It was a wrap.”

Then, Horry was jokingly asked if he told the general manager to fire Pop after the game. Horry said no, and his reasoning was that Popovich is the real GM and “the other guy’s just a figurehead.” (Popovich is actually the Spurs’ president of basketball operations, and general manager R.C. Buford literally does report to him.)

Link
Why Robert Horry blames Gregg Popovich for Derek Fisher’s infamous Spurs-killing shot | For The Win (usatoday.com) (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/07/robert-horry-gregg-popovich-derek-fisher-game-winner-2004-kobe-hate-spurs-lakers-nba-playoffs-story-podcast)

[MultiTroll]

The problem wasn’t the D, the problem was not starting the clock on time. The D was quite good, and the buzzer should have sounded with the ball still in Fish breaths hand.
Imperfect and / or cheating clock runner aside, with Swisher being left handed Ginobili should not have allowed him to run the direction he did.
Of course Fisher had sucked soo many NBA refs cocks by then, to guard him within 12 inches of touching him was an extreme risk.

But, needed to force Fisher the other way.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

The problem wasn’t the D, the problem was not starting the clock on time. The D was quite good, and the buzzer should have sounded with the ball still in Fish breaths hand.


No way is anyone able to catch, turn and shoot in 0.4 seconds. The clock was started way too late. It never should have counted regardless of the defense.



TOO SOON

[Budkin]

TOO SOON

Man 04,06, and 13 caused some serious PTSD for Spurs fans (myself included)

[spurs10]

Always liked Big Shot Rob, but think the Spurs should tell him he is too ignorant to get his jersey hung in the rafters. He is dumber than a rock. Listen to him.

[benefactor]

Excellent thread. I can't recall this rather profound comparison ever being made anywhere in the history of basketball discussions

[baseline bum]

“The funny part is if I’d have did what I wanted to do, we would’ve won that game.

“So Pop doesn’t like Kobe. He was like, ‘I don’t like him. I don’t want him to hit a game-winner,’ and so he says, ‘Rob, when Kobe comes off, just guard him.’

“I was like, ‘No, you want the ball to go away from the basket.’

“Where I was standing, Kobe comes off, I actually did this, ‘One thousand one, no I shouldn’t do it, (expletive) it, I gotta do what the coach says.’

“So I run over to Kobe, the spot I leave, kicks it right to Fish, Fish catches and turns. I’m looking to Pop the whole time like, ‘See, if you make ’em throw ’em out that way, away from the basket, going this way and turning,’ I’m like, ‘Really?’

“I was just shaking my head, and after that. It was a wrap.”

Then, Horry was jokingly asked if he told the general manager to fire Pop after the game. Horry said no, and his reasoning was that Popovich is the real GM and “the other guy’s just a figurehead.” (Popovich is actually the Spurs’ president of basketball operations, and general manager R.C. Buford literally does report to him.)

Link
Why Robert Horry blames Gregg Popovich for Derek Fisher’s infamous Spurs-killing shot | For The Win (usatoday.com) (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/07/robert-horry-gregg-popovich-derek-fisher-game-winner-2004-kobe-hate-spurs-lakers-nba-playoffs-story-podcast)

And whose fault was Horry's wide open three off the backboard a minute earlier? The one that would have iced the game?

[daslicer]

Man 04,06, and 13 caused some serious PTSD for Spurs fans (myself included)

'13 was the worst for me. It was insufferable how many trolls came in here along with ESPN and media reliving it every week. If '14 never happened then this place would have been insufferable forever.

[Rummpd]

Dream and TD both all time greats with great post moves and great defense on both sides, and TD gets the nod with more titles but starting a team fine with either one.

[lefty]

Threepear Shaq was just bullying guys. Folks do forget 95 Shaq was no slouch either, and he was a lot quicker.

Shaq in 2006 said rhat he was at his best when he was in Orlando

He got bigger in L.A because Phil Jackson wanted him to, so Shaq could overpower his opponents even more and get them in foul trouble faster

[MultiTroll]

No not him
Drexler was
Whatchu talking about Willis?

19/7/6 while playing 40 minutes a game.
FOH. Drexler was definitely the #2 on the Rockets b2b.

[lefty]

Whatchu talking about Willis?

19/7/6 while playing 40 minutes a game.
FOH. Drexler was definitely the #2 on the Rockets b2b.
Yes he was #2 on that team

[MultiTroll]

And whose fault was Horry's wide open three off the backboard a minute earlier? The one that would have iced the game?
What?
What is your Whataboutism point?

[baseline bum]

What?
What is your Whataboutism point?

Could have iced that game instead Horry choked on a wide open three, didn't even hit rim. He's got no room to blame anyone. Around the 5:00 mark of the video below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnfOuPtDRfk

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah Horry blaming Manu for our title loss is stupid. In my book, only Tim, Tony, Pop, and me get to blame Manu for 06.

The real shame about it is that literally nobody remembers prime Duncan. It's almost like he never happened. They remember him losing to Kobe and they are like see Kobe is better when Duncan had a dominant series both losses in 01-02. Dude was unbelievable and couldn't be stopped. If Kobe were a B-star instead of a legit A-star then we would've probably won both series.. You can't be expected to beat TWO top 10 players of all time on the same team. Like Hakeem faced Malone and Stockton (who is aight, often got outplayed by his contemporaries in playoff series who weren't name Avery Johnson). Hakeem faced Barkley and B level KJ. He faced Robinson and C level Elliott. And then he beat a young baby Shaq and Penny.

Duncan put up 40 against the Lakers and they couldn't stop him just the way that nobody could stop Hakeem. The difference was Kobe Bryant. If Hakeem had to face prime Shaq and Kobe he would've been bounced too.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Yeah Horry blaming Manu for our title loss is stupid. In my book, only Tim, Tony, Pop, and me get to blame Manu for 06.

The real shame about it is that literally nobody remembers prime Duncan. It's almost like he never happened. They remember him losing to Kobe and they are like see Kobe is better when Duncan had a dominant series both losses in 01-02. Dude was unbelievable and couldn't be stopped. If Kobe were a B-star instead of a legit A-star then we would've probably won both series.. You can't be expected to beat TWO top 10 players of all time on the same team. Like Hakeem faced Malone and Stockton (who is aight, often got outplayed by his contemporaries in playoff series who weren't name Avery Johnson). Hakeem faced Barkley and B level KJ. He faced Robinson and C level Elliott. And then he beat a young baby Shaq and Penny.

Duncan put up 40 against the Lakers and they couldn't stop him just the way that nobody could stop Hakeem. The difference was Kobe Bryant. If Hakeem had to face prime Shaq and Kobe he would've been bounced too.

The whole Spurs organization is forgotten. The winningest team in pro sports for over two decades gets one nationally televised basketball game next season. The Celtics and Lakers were getting legacy games for years after their dynasties ended. The Lakers were getting a minimum of 14 games when they were one of the worst teams in the league. The powers that be are happy to rid themselves of televising Spurs' games as fast as they can hit the delete key.

[KobesAchilles]

The whole Spurs organization is forgotten. The winningest team in pro sports for over two decades gets one nationally televised basketball game next season. The Celtics and Lakers were getting legacy games for years after their dynasties ended. The Lakers were getting a minimum of 14 games when they were one of the worst teams in the league. The powers that be are happy to rid themselves of televising Spurs' games as fast as they can hit the delete key.
It is amazing to me how David Stern, a man known for being a global promotor of basketball, never knew how to market Tony and Manu. Duncan I get bc he ran away from it. But two of the biggest foreign stars in the NBA and he has no idea how to make them popular? The guy is the reason why the NBA is dying. He hedged his bets on American born only. And that has caused Silver a LOT of headaches

[OldMan88]

Tim’s peak was certainly lowered some when he tore his meniscus early in his career. However, the adjustments he made to his game after that injury might have actually extended his career because he learned how to defend & score without jumping, even though he wasn’t a high flyer even before his injury. My verdict is peak Hakeem is better than peak Tim, but career Tim is significantly better than career Hakeem.

[MultiTroll]

Could have iced that game instead Horry choked on a wide open three, didn't even hit rim. He's got no room to blame anyone. Around the 5:00 mark of the video below:
Porker also missed two wide open shots, one was a no rim like Horrys.
Also #23 (Devin Brown) missed a wide open 3.

[Ice009]

Tim’s peak was certainly lowered some when he tore his meniscus early in his career. However, the adjustments he made to his game after that injury might have actually extended his career because he learned how to defend & score without jumping, even though he wasn’t a high flyer even before his injury. My verdict is peak Hakeem is better than peak Tim, but career Tim is significantly better than career Hakeem.

Hakeem got smarter and wiser as his career went on, but the difference is, he still had a lot of his athleticism at the age of 32. TD didn't. You don't think with TD getting wiser and more savvy as the years went on, it would have make a bigger difference if he still had his early athleticism to go along with it (even if TD didn't have to adjust to his bad knee and declining athleticism, I still believe he would have become even wiser/smarter as the years went on)? TD was already darn good/great with that early athleticism (he still had smarts to go along with it back then too, and that is what separated him with the other athletes of the day - his Basketball IQ). He also had elite lateral quickness for a big man and Pop even had him guarding guards early on in his career for a couple of games as an experiment. I believe TD's peak would have been even higher than Olajuwon's if he was able to keep most of his athleticism into his early 30s.

[lefty]

Recently re-watched highlights of Hakeem vs the Lakers in the 1986 WCF and the Celtics in the Finals

Holy shit, he was such a freak athlete and already had some nice moves in his 2nd season

Fuck Stern for suspending key Rockets players and later some Mavs players for drug use; oh I'm sure the Lakers weren't doing coke amirite?

[Budkin]

'13 was the worst for me. It was insufferable how many trolls came in here along with ESPN and media reliving it every week. If '14 never happened then this place would have been insufferable forever.

Exactly. 14 was just pure relief after going through sports fan hell.

[tim_duncan_fan]

https://youtu.be/IIYsm7JTD50?t=1145

Maybe there is a little tiny bit of bad blood between Horry and Tim. Start at 19:05.


Horry says he loves Tim and gives him props in a couple ways earlier in the video, but IDK...seems like it's not a situation where the two of them are overly close. For me, this kinda of exemplifies or explains some things over the years from Horry, when he is talking on a podcast or something and is hesitant to be really complimentary of Tim/the Spurs.


Seems like his love for Pop is close to 100% though.

[Obstructed_View]

Horry knows how bad Pop fucked the team. He did not leave on happy terms.

[exstatic]

Horry knows how bad Pop fucked the team. He did not leave on happy terms.

He left because even with a coach that LOVED older players, he aged out. He was really bad towards the end of his tenure.

He threw a towel at Danny Ainge, punching his ticket out of Phoenix
He didn’t leave LA on good terms
According to you, he didn’t leave SA on good terms.

Kind of seeing a pattern here.

[daslicer]

Horry knows how bad Pop fucked the team. He did not leave on happy terms.

Horry was washed in '08 and the Spurs refused to re-sign him. Other teams called Pop to ask about Horry if he could still play and Pop told them the truth. Horry got angry at Pop and the Spurs simply because he couldn't pull a fast one on another team to get more money. Horry just like Jax was delusional when his time in the league was up and couldn't admit that he could no longer play but instead blames Pop and the Spurs for ending his career.

[bigzak25]

Horry sucked Hakeem off. It's no wonder he thinks he's better.

[Rosewood]

There is a legit discussion to be had on Duncan vs Dream regarding which one is better. But Duncan is inarguably greater and will always correctly be ranked ahead of Dream on those stupid all time lists. He had a far better career and left his franchise in a much better spot. You can throw what ifs and buts all in the equation but Duncan won multiple playoff series without fellow all-stars too.

Both underrated by the casual audiences and media.

[dn0774]

I don't think its controversial to acknowledge that Hakeem had a slightly better peak than Duncan (Hakeem 92-96 vs Duncan 01-05). Their defense was neck and neck but Hakeem just put the ball in the hoop more than Tim. Better career is TD quite easily, led his team to championships with 3 distinctly different versions of the Spurs and for a player who didn't care about stats he sure put up a lot of them.

[exstatic]

5 > 2

[LeBowen]

Let's just forget about Hakeem not winning a playoff series for 5 years during his prime.

[TD 21]

I don't think its controversial to acknowledge that Hakeem had a slightly better peak than Duncan (Hakeem 92-96 vs Duncan 01-05). Their defense was neck and neck but Hakeem just put the ball in the hoop more than Tim. Better career is TD quite easily, led his team to championships with 3 distinctly different versions of the Spurs and for a player who didn't care about stats he sure put up a lot of them.

This is a long, enduring myth that has mostly prolonged on the strength of one overrated move (dream shake) and series ('95 WCF) . . .

Duncan career usage %: 27, TS%: .551, eFG%: .507, OWS: 100, OBPM: 3.3

Olajuwon career usage %: 27.1, TS% .553, efg%: .513, OWS: 68.3, OBPM: 2.2.

As scorers, the differences are negligible and they were roughly equivalent, with Duncan having a higher offensive impact overall.

[dn0774]

This is a long, enduring myth that has mostly prolonged on the strength of one overrated move (dream shake) and series ('95 WCF) . . .

Duncan career usage %: 27, TS%: .551, eFG%: .507, OWS: 100, OBPM: 3.3

Olajuwon career usage %: 27.1, TS% .553, efg%: .513, OWS: 68.3, OBPM: 2.2.

As scorers, the differences are negligible and they were roughly equivalent, with Duncan having a higher offensive impact overall.

Career stats isn't really accounting for peak vs peak. Hakeems scoring volume was higher on similar efficiency is all I was saying. Comparing both to David is even more interesting imo, DRob's 93-96 is a crazy peak...sucks it resulted in some playoff flameouts.

[TD 21]

Career stats isn't really accounting for peak vs peak. Hakeems scoring volume was higher on similar efficiency is all I was saying. Comparing both to David is even more interesting imo, DRob's 93-96 is a crazy peak...sucks it resulted in some playoff flameouts.

Fair enough.

Robinson's metrics are insane, but aided by entering late and exiting early and for all his efficiency + volume (a lot of it was FTr), his jump shooting + dribble drive style wasn't conducive to being the hub of a championship offense the way Olajuwon's and Duncan's more or O'Neal's exclusive back to the basket style was.

[keeferob25]

I don't think its controversial to acknowledge that Hakeem had a slightly better peak than Duncan (Hakeem 92-96 vs Duncan 01-05). Their defense was neck and neck but Hakeem just put the ball in the hoop more than Tim. Better career is TD quite easily, led his team to championships with 3 distinctly different versions of the Spurs and for a player who didn't care about stats he sure put up a lot of them.

Respectfully, this take is simply reflective of what we've already began seeing of Duncan's career/peak being shat on while others' careers and peaks get romanticized by the media which has too long been the case for Dream especially. This take is very representative of a "casual" take that the media has heavily influenced by again continually romanticizing Dream as the lovable foreigner with an unguardable mythical set of moves that catapulted him to dominate a single center (who happened to win MVP that year) for a series and somehow that is reflective of his ENTIRE career. That is essentially Dream's legend. This is not to say he wasn't an all-time great talent and player - but considering he has significantly less accolades overall than say a Duncan - he sure gets brought up as if ONLY circumstance is the reason and not that Duncan simply was the better player for BOTH peak and career.


But what the media is really saying to you is "hey take our word for it...this guy had one of THE best peaks of all time...but please don't actually look deeper into it" and here's why:


Let's take the windows you provided to represent Dream's and Duncan's peak:


Net Differential Between OFF RTG and DEF RTG (Reg Season|Playoff):


Dream: +12 | +7
Duncan: +19 | +15 (lol more than DOUBLE Hakeem's)


VORP:


Dream: 25.3 | 6.2
Duncan: 27.8 | 6.8


**cumulative stat with Dream playing 8 more reg season games during this period and still has less
**Duncan played 66 playoff games to Dream's 65 so that part is minor


Box +/-:


Dream: 6.2 | 6.9
Duncan: 7.8 | 8.1


Def Box +/-:


Dream: 2.9 | 3.3
Duncan: 2.7 | 3.1


Off Box +/-:


Dream: 3.3 | 3.6
Duncan: 5.1 | 5.0


fairly wide margins wouldn't you say for supposedly not being in Dream's offensive class


WS:


Dream: 50.6 | 10.0
Duncan: 58.6 | 12.9


**Again Dream played 8 more reg season games so gap would essentially be wider and Duncan trumped him in BOTH Off WS and Def WS playing less games lol
**Peak single season WS for a title run during this period was Dream (4.3) and Duncan (5.9) - with Duncan's 5.9 being the HIGHEST WS TOTAL FOR A TITLE RUN IN NBA HISTORY!!!!!


PER:


Dream: 26.0 | 26.3
Duncan: 27.0 | 27.1


Oh and do I need to remind you that Dream was able to avoid facing that era's dynasty (Bulls) while Duncan had to go through a historical dynasty comprised of two top tier HOFs (Lakers) at their peak and also a Detroit team tougher than ANY team Dream faced during that time.

So stats certainly bear out that Duncan's peak was actually higher by most measurable advanced stats but of course that doesn't fit the media (or league) narrative because it involves boring ol Duncan. Trust me - he'll continue to get shit on as time quickly passes. He's always been an easy pass-over.

[dn0774]

Respectfully, this take is simply reflective of what we've already began seeing of Duncan's career/peak being shat on while others' careers and peaks get romanticized by the media which has too long been the case for Dream especially. This take is very representative of a "casual" take that the media has heavily influenced by again continually romanticizing Dream as the lovable foreigner with an unguardable mythical set of moves that catapulted him to dominate a single center (who happened to win MVP that year) for a series and somehow that is reflective of his ENTIRE career. That is essentially Dream's legend. This is not to say he wasn't an all-time great talent and player - but considering he has significantly less accolades overall than say a Duncan - he sure gets brought up as if ONLY circumstance is the reason and not that Duncan simply was the better player for BOTH peak and career.


Awesome post dude, definitely opened my eyes on some stuff, appreciate the numbers you pulled. One thing I will say is I am of the opinion that comparing players from different eras using exclusively modern advanced stats can occasionally be slightly...misleading perhaps?

When talking peaks I admit I put a lot of weight on extended playoff runs (as many do) and Hakeem in 94 and 95 played 45 playoff games combined and went nuts offensively in a way we never saw Duncan do. 45 games is not exactly a small sample, especially considering that's the most competitive basketball that one can play in. Now, Hakeem's usage/fga's took a big jump to allow for that, and my opinion is Duncan could've done similar if he commanded that kind of usage as well but he didn't so we never got to see it.

There were some pace differences between those time frames as well that favored Hakeem in terms of raw stats, but not enough to account for the vast scoring volume difference between the 2. Averaging 29 and 33 ppg in back to back championship playoff runs just carries a lot of weight and admittedly results in some revisionist history regarding the rest of his career to me. I'm old enough to remember when he was Akeem, and he was a bit of a punk. Duncan is my favorite player ever, i'm an easy mark to be convinced of his greatness lol.

Any chance you could show some stats from KG's peak compared to Duncan? I'd call his peak 02-06 probably.

[Thomas82]

Let's just forget about Hakeem not winning a playoff series for 5 years during his prime.

Or how about when The Admiral held him to 6 points ina game one year?

[bigfan]

Hell I remember being there one night watching Artis school his young azz.

[KobesAchilles]

I think what separates the two is that Duncan went through the Shaq and Kobe dynasty twice and rang while Hakeem had to wait for Jordan’s dynasty to end. Also Duncan being a consummate professional while Akeem was a diva also separates the two.

You look at Hakeem and he went through Barkley, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, and Robinson to ring. Duncan went through Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, KG, Dirk, and KD. And they both won a title without having another all star on the team or even a real second option. Hakeem’s defense was better than Tim’s. And his offense was also better than Tim’s. But Duncan just knew how to win, how to control a game, and when to turn it on better than Hakeem did.

[exstatic]

I think what separates the two is that Duncan went through the Shaq and Kobe dynasty twice and rang while Hakeem had to wait for Jordan’s dynasty to end. Also Duncan being a consummate professional while Akeem was a diva also separates the two.

You look at Hakeem and he went through Barkley, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, and Robinson to ring. Duncan went through Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, KG, Dirk, and KD. And they both won a title without having another all star on the team or even a real second option. Hakeem’s defense was better than Tim’s. And his offense was also better than Tim’s. But Duncan just knew how to win, how to control a game, and when to turn it on better than Hakeem did.

Akeem - 9 All D teams
Tim - 15 All D teams

Tim was All D his rookie year, and in his 18th season. Before you say DPOY, I don’t think anyone outside of the media would argue that Tim wasn’t fucked over multiple times on that front, especially the Camby year.

[KobesAchilles]

Akeem - 9 All D teams
Tim - 15 All D teams

Tim was All D his rookie year, and in his 18th season. Before you say DPOY, I don’t think anyone outside of the media would argue that Tim wasn’t fucked over multiple times on that front, especially the Camby year.
Hakeem has more blocks and steals than Duncan. He also averaged more rebounds per game than Duncan. And to bring up Duncan being snubbed and not Hakeem is disingenuous to me. Yes Hakeem won the award twice but he was robbed 3 more times by my count. Look Duncan was a great defender but the DPOY award was renamed after one player and it isn’t Duncan…

[TD 21]

Hakeem has more blocks and steals than Duncan. He also averaged more rebounds per game than Duncan. And to bring up Duncan being snubbed and not Hakeem is disingenuous to me. Yes Hakeem won the award twice but he was robbed 3 more times by my count. Look Duncan was a great defender but the DPOY award was renamed after one player and it isn’t Duncan…

I'm not trying to sound like a snob, but some of you really need to learn how to interpret stats instead of just spouting counting ones without context like it's '95.

Olajuwon's career was basically in the infancy of the 3, which meant the game was played mostly in confined spaces, which naturally led to more blocks (notice they've dropped with the proliferation of the 3). It's also well known that the Rockets, like the Jazz with Stockton's assists, intentionally fudged a lot of them.

He was a slightly better shot blocker than Duncan (5.4% to 4.6%), but the latter was the superior rebounder (18.4% to 17.2%).

Who cares who they arbitrarily named an award after? Again, that's about perception. If Duncan played in the analytics era, he'd more than likely have multiple. If you really want to read into it though, then Ben Wallace, Howard and Gobert won the most, so I guess that makes them the three GOATs defensively.

[KobesAchilles]

I'm not trying to sound like a snob, but some of you really need to learn how to interpret stats instead of just spouting counting ones without context like it's '95.

Olajuwon's career was basically in the infancy of the 3, which meant the game was played mostly in confined spaces, which naturally led to more blocks. It's also well know that the Rockets, like the Jazz with Stockton's assists, intentionally fudged a lot of them.

He was a slightly better shot blocker than Duncan (5.4% to 4.6%), but the latter was the superior rebounder (18.4% to 17.2%).

Who cares who they arbitrarily named an award after? Again, that's about perception. If Duncan played in the analytics era, he'd more than likely have multiple. If you really want to read into it though, then Ben Wallace, Howard and Gobert won the most.
I mean they played against each other. Duncan came into the 90s. It’s not as if he was a 2015 player from the start. You don’t sound like a snob. You just sound like one of those people who don’t know how to interpret stats. Duncan’s first 4 years in the league teams were averaging less 3 FGAs per game than the previous 3 years before Duncan was even in the league. And for almost all of his prime teams averaged in the teens with 3pt FGAs per game. Yes I know that in the 80s teams didn’t focus on the 3 point shot but really Hakeem averaged a shit ton of blocks in the same era that Duncan played in. Also every fucking team fudges their stats. I get tired of that shit like the Spurs were somehow the only honest team and didn’t fudge assists and blocks. Yes they did.

I mean look at the shit you say to discredit an all time great. I say Duncan is a great defender. You say Hakeem is overrated and his blocks don’t even count. That’s not a snob. That’s just a hater. If Hakeem played in any era he would have DPOY awards. He has 2 and Duncan has none. Look nobody is saying that is the end all be all. But basically your counterpoints are to lesser Hakeem’s achievements and raise Duncan’s. I can’t take you seriously

[SpursBills]

All I know is, for my all-time starting 5 that would work well as a team, I'm probably taking Duncan over Hakeem although it'd be fairly close.

'18 Lebron-'16 Curry-'92 Jordan-***-'02 Duncan

With *** either '85 Bird or '04 KG, depending on whether I want offense or defense

[exstatic]

I mean they played against each other. Duncan came into the 90s. It’s not as if he was a 2015 player from the start. You don’t sound like a snob. You just sound like one of those people who don’t know how to interpret stats. Duncan’s first 4 years in the league teams were averaging less 3 FGAs per game than the previous 3 years before Duncan was even in the league. And for almost all of his prime teams averaged in the teens with 3pt FGAs per game. Yes I know that in the 80s teams didn’t focus on the 3 point shot but really Hakeem averaged a shit ton of blocks in the same era that Duncan played in. Also every fucking team fudges their stats. I get tired of that shit like the Spurs were somehow the only honest team and didn’t fudge assists and blocks. Yes they did.

I mean look at the shit you say to discredit an all time great. I say Duncan is a great defender. You say Hakeem is overrated and his blocks don’t even count. That’s not a snob. That’s just a hater. If Hakeem played in any era he would have DPOY awards. He has 2 and Duncan has none. Look nobody is saying that is the end all be all. But basically your counterpoints are to lesser Hakeem’s achievements and raise Duncan’s. I can’t take you seriously

Hakeem played 17 years. Duncan played 19 years. They only overlapped 6 years in a 30 year span, so they really did play in 2 eras.

I’m not sure why you think posters on a Spurs board are going to rally to your Hakeem flag.

[KobesAchilles]

Hakeem played 17 years. Duncan played 19 years. They only overlapped 6 years in a 30 year span, so they really did play in 2 eras.

I’m not sure why you think posters on a Spurs board are going to rally to your Hakeem flag.
I’m not saying they have to agree with me. For instance, I did like your response to my initial post. However, you don’t have to shit on a player just to prop up Duncan. Personally I believe that at their peaks Hakeem was a better offensive and defensive player. However to me, Duncan is the only player I know of that was 100% committed to winning. I’ve never seen a player as committed to winning as Duncan. And to me that drive and discipline to do what is needed to win makes him a better player than Hakeem. That was my overall point to my post.

[dbestpro]

Hakeem was better than Robinson but not better than TD. Artis Gilmore is a guy who never gets mentioned because he started in the ABA. He was not better than these three, but he was a beast in the 1970s and 80s. Swen Nater deserves honorable mention as he is the only player to lead in rebounding in the NBA and ABA. His best season was with the Spurs in the ABA.