Former NBA players critique today's game

[Dirks_Finale]

https://youtu.be/6S9gVjmrmCg

Bitter old men or do they have valid points?

Agree with Jalen on Jordan. He would be a better 3 point shooter in today's game. Not 50ppg but most definitely hovering around 40 his entire career.

[Neo.]

yes and the previous generations said the same crap about their generation and guaranteed wilt would average 80ppg against guys like shaq hakeem and drob while jordan wouldnt even be a star in the 60s so its just history repeating itself of wreckless, pride infused talk

[lefty]

OLD MEN YELL AT CLOUDS

[lefty]

That being said, this footage from The Last Dance is still badass

:worthy: Jordan



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHAG6CVYScY

[FrostKing]

yes and the previous generations said the same crap about their generation and guaranteed wilt would average 80ppg against guys like shaq hakeem and drob while jordan wouldnt even be a star in the 60s so its just history repeating itself of wreckless, pride infused talk
At this point the majority of current NBA players were raised on the inferior playstyle and rules. Add in social media.

I think they could adapt but they were brought up to be this inferior way. It is little fault of their own.

[lefty]

At this point the majority of current NBA players were raised on the inferior playstyle and rules. Add in social media.

I think they could adapt but they were brought up to be this inferior way. It is little fault of their own.
"Inferior playstyle and rules" :lol

How is it inferior?
Players are more skilled. the league is the more talented it's ever been from top to bottom, offensive and defensive schemes are are more complex and diverse - holy shit, those old school games wrre so limited in terme of of offensive and strategies , it's really antiquated :lol

:lol nostalgia SMH

[FrostKing]

"Inferior playstyle and rules" :lol

How is it inferior?
Players are more skilled. the league is the more talented it's ever been from top to bottom, offensive and defensive schemes are are more complex and diverse - holy shit, those old school games wrre so limited in terme of of offensive and strategies , it's really antiquated :lol

:lol nostalgia SMH
I never thought to myself, I wish Hakeem could dribble the ball the length of the court and heave a 3pointer.

The League is more one dimensional today because all 5 players are the exact same style just differ in leg and arm length.

[lefty]

I never thought to myself, I wish Hakeem could dribble the ball the length of the court and heave a 3pointer.

The League is more one dimensional today because all 5 players are the exact same style just differ in leg and arm length.
Guys like Jokic can bring the ball up the court like a PG, post up, makes amazing passes, shoots the midrange, the one legged fade away, the 3 pointer
Name one center in the 90s who could do ALL THAT, I'll wait

I guess he is one dimensional .............

Hakeem was ahead of his time, same thing with Dirk, because they were non American players but when it coms to Murican bigs they were so stiff compared to today's bigs :lol

I guess Dave Corzine was a unicorn :lol

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

That being said, this footage from The Last Dance is still badass

:worthy: Jordan



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHAG6CVYScY

:worthy:

[Neo.]

I never thought to myself

well theres the problem. youre stating your opinion as though its a fact. its not.

[KobesAchilles]

I mean the league is softer. There's zero argument about that. the NBA literally put in rules to help the offense get to what it is. As far as skills go though, it's tough for me to say that we are more skilled now then back in the day. I would take all the early 2000 stars over any star today not named Lebron who tbh was a star in the early 2000s. I would take the 90's stars over the NBA stars today. I didn't see the 80s stars in their prime so I won't speak on that.

To me, we confuse shooting 3s as being more skilled. Like we jack up 70 threes a game and make 18 of them and say we are more skilled. That type of thinking (Moreyball) is nonsense. could Shaq shoot 3s? Hell no. But can Embiid live in the paint and dominate consistently the way Shaq did? Nope. Embiid having to shoot any type of 3 pointer is because his teammates aren't skilled. Like Simmons literally won't even shoot anymore. Westbrick shoots 18% from 3. John Wall can't shoot. Derozan doesn't even shoot them. Dwight can't shoot or post. There are a lot of players that can't shoot in this league yet everyone just says that we can. Brooke Lopez was averaging 19 points a game for like 8 straight years. Then they put his ass out at the 3 point line where he shoots like 32% and scores less points, has less rebounds, and has his greatest strengths as a player taken away from him. But because he can supposedly hit a 3 point shot all of a sudden he is more talented than other big men back in the day? Makes zero sense.

Steph Curry has killed the NBA in a lot of ways and tbh I blame KD for it. Had KD not gone over there, Curry's little run would've been ended by Lebron and this style of basketball would've been a cute flash in the pan. Charles point in the opening of the video was spot on. You had the 3 greatest shooters at their position on the same team and everyone is trying to copy them like they have great shooters on their team.

[Neo.]

I mean the league is softer. There's zero argument about that. the NBA literally put in rules to help the offense get to what it is. As far as skills go though, it's tough for me to say that we are more skilled now then back in the day. I would take all the early 2000 stars over any star today not named Lebron who tbh was a star in the early 2000s. I would take the 90's stars over the NBA stars today. I didn't see the 80s stars in their prime so I won't speak on that.

To me, we confuse shooting 3s as being more skilled. Like we jack up 70 threes a game and make 18 of them and say we are more skilled. That type of thinking (Moreyball) is nonsense. could Shaq shoot 3s? Hell no. But can Embiid live in the paint and dominate consistently the way Shaq did? Nope. Embiid having to shoot any type of 3 pointer is because his teammates aren't skilled. Like Simmons literally won't even shoot anymore. Westbrick shoots 18% from 3. John Wall can't shoot. Derozan doesn't even shoot them. Dwight can't shoot or post. There are a lot of players that can't shoot in this league yet everyone just says that we can. Brooke Lopez was averaging 19 points a game for like 8 straight years. Then they put his ass out at the 3 point line where he shoots like 32% and scores less points, has less rebounds, and has his greatest strengths as a player taken away from him. But because he can supposedly hit a 3 point shot all of a sudden he is more talented than other big men back in the day? Makes zero sense.

Steph Curry has killed the NBA in a lot of ways and tbh I blame KD for it. Had KD not gone over there, Curry's little run would've been ended by Lebron and this style of basketball would've been a cute flash in the pan. Charles point in the opening of the video was spot on. You had the 3 greatest shooters at their position on the same team and everyone is trying to copy them like they have great shooters on their team.

funny how this is basically the same thing 60s and 70s fanboys were complaining about in regards to the 80s-00s, only about different skills and that Michael Jordan ruined the NBA instead of Steph curry

same thing will happen in 20 years with fanboys of the 10s and 20s complaining about the next modern era, when in fact it's simply just natural growth and evolution of the game, learning from the past and adjusting to overcome whatever is currently dominating the game. in the end, mostly it's just people bellyaching that the game isn't what they grew up watching.

[Down Under]

Craig Ehlo & Danny Ainge ewould lock up KD & LeBron IMO

[lefty]

funny how this is basically the same thing 60s and 70s fanboys were complaining about in regards to the 80s-00s, only about different skills and that Michael Jordan ruined the NBA instead of Steph curry

same thing will happen in 20 years with fanboys of the 10s and 20s complaining about the next modern era, when in fact it's simply just natural growth and evolution of the game, learning from the past and adjusting to overcome whatever is currently dominating the game. in the end, mostly it's just people bellyaching that the game isn't what they grew up watching.

This

Also, Barkley is wrong about copycats
They existed in the 80s 90s too. A few teams actually tried to implement the triangle offense because of the Bulls success but it didn’t work, the same way a few teams have tried without success to copy the Warriors

[KobesAchilles]

funny how this is basically the same thing 60s and 70s fanboys were complaining about in regards to the 80s-00s, only about different skills and that Michael Jordan ruined the NBA instead of Steph curry

same thing will happen in 20 years with fanboys of the 10s and 20s complaining about the next modern era, when in fact it's simply just natural growth and evolution of the game, learning from the past and adjusting to overcome whatever is currently dominating the game. in the end, mostly it's just people bellyaching that the game isn't what they grew up watching.
I don’t care that it isn’t the same as it was when I grew up. Hell I can barely watch the 99 season bc of how shitty our offense is. The 90s in general had really shitty offenses and I’m glad they changed the rules to favor offense. I just don’t think that jacking up 70 threes a game is fun to watch. The exact same way I didn’t think watching the Pacers and Heat scoring 60 points for their match up was fun to watch. There has to be some sort of middle ground here which is why I liked the early 2000s so much.

But honestly it’s the shitshow that the nba is now that I hate. I live here in Houston and go to rockets games and it wasn’t really fun watching this team. Maybe you find 3s and lots of free throws exciting. I don’t.

And nobody really complained that Jordan ruined the game (except the bad boys). He was so technically sound and played almost exactly like his idols of the 60s and 70s. I can see Oscar in Jordan’s game or Dr. J.

[FrostKing]

Guys like Jokic can bring the ball up the court like a PG, post up, makes amazing passes, shoots the midrange, the one legged fade away, the 3 pointer
Name one center in the 90s who could do ALL THAT, I'll wait

I guess he is one dimensional .............

Hakeem was ahead of his time, same thing with Dirk, because they were non American players but when it coms to Murican bigs they were so stiff compared to today's bigs :lol

I guess Dave Corzine was a unicorn :lol
Sure but can Jovic defend or rebound like those American big stiffs?

I don't need him to do those things you listed, I prefer 1-3 to fill that role otherwise what are they doing on the court. Just have a starting 5 of Small Forwards. Which is essentially where the game is "evolving".


funny how this is basically the same thing 60s and 70s fanboys were complaining about in regards to the 80s-00s, only about different skills and that Michael Jordan ruined the NBA instead of Steph curry

same thing will happen in 20 years with fanboys of the 10s and 20s complaining about the next modern era, when in fact it's simply just natural growth and evolution of the game, learning from the past and adjusting to overcome whatever is currently dominating the game. in the end, mostly it's just people bellyaching that the game isn't what they grew up watching.
This is a recycled topic. I've argued before the NBA has seen the most changes to their League in comparison to the other sports. And it's not just game rules. The typical NBA star no longer comes from the inner city (or rural) and in a decade or so most might be from a private boarding school. The players are arguably more different mentally than physically in contrast to past generations. This isn't even taking into account social media which is huge in NBA locker rooms.

I agree the players on the bench are better and overall I think the shooting especially from outside is better. Dribbling is better. I think most everything else is declined and not just because it isn't being taught but because it isn't prioritized. I.e. hurry up and get that ball inbounded. I can't speak on the 80s but some of these coaches in the NBA today seem more like buddies/mentors than teachers.

[Thread]

GIGO

[ambchang]

Some valid points by the old folks. I tend to think a superstar can be a superstar in any era. I also doubt jordan can average 50ppg, in all seriousness. He may even average less because of load management and reduction in minutes.

That said, the league is undoubtedly softer and it’s a number of reasons:
1) having to sell to mass appeal. Corporate sponsors and skyboxes rule so they have to sell to those guys. Fist fights every game isn’t something that is easy to sell to corporate sponsors and the suits. Who wants to pay hundreds of millions to have their corporate brands associated with a thugs sport? You see Microsoft and Amazon sponsoring boxing and mma?
2) reducing injuries, allowing the elite players to play longer and sell more tickets.
3) be like mike - Pistons and Knicks didn’t sell tickets, but showtime and the bulls did
4) corporate image - nobody wants to see another malice in the palace or even those Knicks and heat brawls. It’s ugly and puts a stain on the league image.

[lefty]

I don’t care that it isn’t the same as it was when I grew up. Hell I can barely watch the 99 season bc of how shitty our offense is. The 90s in general had really shitty offenses and I’m glad they changed the rules to favor offense. I just don’t think that jacking up 70 threes a game is fun to watch. The exact same way I didn’t think watching the Pacers and Heat scoring 60 points for their match up was fun to watch. There has to be some sort of middle ground here which is why I liked the early 2000s so much.

But honestly it’s the shitshow that the nba is now that I hate. I live here in Houston and go to rockets games and it wasn’t really fun watching this team. Maybe you find 3s and lots of free throws exciting. I don’t.

And nobody really complained that Jordan ruined the game (except the bad boys). He was so technically sound and played almost exactly like his idols of the 60s and 70s. I can see Oscar in Jordan’s game or Dr. J.
It’s the Rockets, they do shoot too many 3s but not every team jacks up 3s like the Rockets either
Heat, Suns, Spurs, Bucks, Nugs are pretty much mid range oriented
Warriors shoot 3s but they can actually shoot, and have good rythm and ball movement, whereas Houston shoot 3s just for the sake of shooting 3s

[lefty]

:worthy:
:lol did you actually watch the video? i can’t tell tbh

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

:lol did you actually watch the video? i can’t tell tbh

:worthy: tbh

lmao steve kerr exclusive

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

:lol did you actually watch the video? i can’t tell tbh

:worthy: tbh

lmao steve kerr exclusive

[lefty]

:worthy: tbh

lmao steve kerr exclusive
:lol that was a good one too tbh

[Dirks_Finale]

I mean the league is softer. There's zero argument about that. the NBA literally put in rules to help the offense get to what it is. As far as skills go though, it's tough for me to say that we are more skilled now then back in the day. I would take all the early 2000 stars over any star today not named Lebron who tbh was a star in the early 2000s. I would take the 90's stars over the NBA stars today. I didn't see the 80s stars in their prime so I won't speak on that.

To me, we confuse shooting 3s as being more skilled. Like we jack up 70 threes a game and make 18 of them and say we are more skilled. That type of thinking (Moreyball) is nonsense. could Shaq shoot 3s? Hell no. But can Embiid live in the paint and dominate consistently the way Shaq did? Nope. Embiid having to shoot any type of 3 pointer is because his teammates aren't skilled. Like Simmons literally won't even shoot anymore. Westbrick shoots 18% from 3. John Wall can't shoot. Derozan doesn't even shoot them. Dwight can't shoot or post. There are a lot of players that can't shoot in this league yet everyone just says that we can. Brooke Lopez was averaging 19 points a game for like 8 straight years. Then they put his ass out at the 3 point line where he shoots like 32% and scores less points, has less rebounds, and has his greatest strengths as a player taken away from him. But because he can supposedly hit a 3 point shot all of a sudden he is more talented than other big men back in the day? Makes zero sense.

Steph Curry has killed the NBA in a lot of ways and tbh I blame KD for it. Had KD not gone over there, Curry's little run would've been ended by Lebron and this style of basketball would've been a cute flash in the pan. Charles point in the opening of the video was spot on. You had the 3 greatest shooters at their position on the same team and everyone is trying to copy them like they have great shooters on their team.

Very valid point about the Warriors. But I think the NBA was already heading in that direction. The 2011 Mavs were a jump shooting team, for example. (20 made three point FG vs LA)

In regards to the 90's ball - I think some of that stuff that is now so maligned in this forum from that era is a skill in and of itself. If you can protect the paint and mindfvck your opponent with brute strength and physicality then you have already won the battle. It's just no longer valued because the rules have changed and every time someone falls down it's a flagrant 2 :lol

Things in life tend to go full circle. So I think much to lefty's dismay, we will see the Charles Oakley types making a return to the NBA at some point. They are already implementing measures to cut down on BS free throws and I think moving the 3 point line back will be the next major move that swings the game back into the traditional direction in which it once again becomes more about seeking a high percentage shot.

[lefty]

Very valid point about the Warriors. But I think the NBA was already heading in that direction. The 2011 Mavs were a jump shooting team, for example. (20 made three point FG vs LA)

In regards to the 90's ball - I think some of that stuff that is now so maligned in this forum from that era is a skill in and of itself. If you can protect the paint and mindfvck your opponent with brute strength and physicality then you have already won the battle. It's just no longer valued because the rules have changed and every time someone falls down it's a flagrant 2 :lol

Things in life tend to go full circle. So I think much to lefty (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6896)'s dismay, we will see the Charles Oakley types making a return to the NBA at some point. They are already implementing measures to cut down on BS free throws and I think moving the 3 point line back will be the next major move that swings the game back into the traditional direction in which it once again becomes more about seeking a high percentage shot.
lol thinking bigs were patrolling the paint and hitting the slasher everytime this is such a myth and it needs to die :lol

They couldn't sit in the paint and wait because of the illegal defense rule, that's why they would end up posterized or be forced to hard foul (the other reason is because they sucked at defending :lol), because they had to wait for the slasher to make his move so they were late

Oh and you can thank that giant pussy Jordan for the flagrant foul rule :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

lol thinking bigs were patrolling the paint and hitting the slasher everytime this is such a myth and it needs to die :lol

They couldn't sit in the paint and wait because of the illegal defense rule, that's why they would end up posterized or be forced to hard foul (the other reason is because they sucked at defending :lol), because they had to wait for the slasher to make his move so they were late

Oh and you can thank that giant pussy Jordan for the flagrant foul rule :lol

Often times not enforced. You know this.

[lefty]

Often times not enforced. You know this.
Except they were enforced most of the time

[MultiTroll]

(4) Watch | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=393342045555018&ref=sharing)

Shaq.

[Neo.]

Often times not enforced. You know this.

lol it was definitely enforced a good bit, especially to the benefit of star players, MJ in particular

[Neo.]

I don’t care that it isn’t the same as it was when I grew up. Hell I can barely watch the 99 season bc of how shitty our offense is. The 90s in general had really shitty offenses and I’m glad they changed the rules to favor offense. I just don’t think that jacking up 70 threes a game is fun to watch. The exact same way I didn’t think watching the Pacers and Heat scoring 60 points for their match up was fun to watch. There has to be some sort of middle ground here which is why I liked the early 2000s so much.

i enjoyed watching the early 2000s as well. but as much as i enjoyed it, i also can see that the depth of quality talent from about 97-03 was clearly the lowest the league has had from the 80s to today. it started trending back up around 04 when dirk/duncan/kg/nash/kobe/tmac were hitting their primes, along with the infusion of talent in guys like amare/yao/lebron/wade/melo/bosh


But honestly it’s the shitshow that the nba is now that I hate. I live here in Houston and go to rockets games and it wasn’t really fun watching this team. Maybe you find 3s and lots of free throws exciting. I don’t.

i dont either. but its not like every team in the NBA plays like the rockets had, just the same way not every team played like the pacers/heat that you described that slowed the game to a grind and struggled to score 80. regardless of whatever trends exists, the champions always follow the same main formula - balance, fundamentals, good team play.


And nobody really complained that Jordan ruined the game (except the bad boys).

lol completely untrue. to this day, there are critics that still claim the same thing. doesnt make it true, just like claiming steph curry killed the nba is completely untrue as well

[Dirks_Finale]

lol it was definitely enforced a good bit, especially to the benefit of star players, MJ in particular

MJ definitely got love from the Zebras. They were bringing shoes to him to sign for their kids prior to tipoff :lol

But im talking in general. I often witnessed it not being enforced - sometimes even over the duration of a playoff series. They were selective on this.

[lefty]

Yeah sometines the refs were just dozing off and a player or coach had to yell at them to sginal illegal D :lol Pippen was very good at that, if the refs didn't see it he would point them towards the area wihere the illagal D took pave and the refs would oblige

Fuck Dick Bavetta and Danny Crawford by the way

It even took Cunnngham 1.5 game in the 1982 Finals to make the refs call illegal D on the Lakers, but it was because Riley used a 1-3-1 trap and actually did a good job at hiding the ilegal D

[KobesAchilles]

i enjoyed watching the early 2000s as well. but as much as i enjoyed it, i also can see that the depth of quality talent from about 97-03 was clearly the lowest the league has had from the 80s to today. it started trending back up around 04 when dirk/duncan/kg/nash/kobe/tmac were hitting their primes, along with the infusion of talent in guys like amare/yao/lebron/wade/melo/bosh





i dont either. but its not like every team in the NBA plays like the rockets had, just the same way not every team played like the pacers/heat that you described that slowed the game to a grind and struggled to score 80. regardless of whatever trends exists, the champions always follow the same main formula - balance, fundamentals, good team play.



lol completely untrue. to this day, there are critics that still claim the same thing. doesnt make it true, just like claiming steph curry killed the nba is completely untrue as well
How did Jordan's style of play ruin the game of basketball. Not the person himself but strictly how he played. Nobody claims that so i don't know what you are talking about.

Yeah the 90s was rough to watch and this is also rough to watch too. That's my opinion. Lots of teams are jacking up 3s galore. Not Rockets style but still waaaay too much. Like why does Giannis or Embiid have to shoot a 3? Dude literally won a title when he stopped doing that bullshit

[Neo.]

MJ definitely got love from the Zebras. They were bringing shoes to him to sign for their kids prior to tipoff :lol

But im talking in general. I often witnessed it not being enforced - sometimes even over the duration of a playoff series. They were selective on this.

oh rly? kinda like how refs so often let handchecking and various forms of illegal contact and physicality slide in the modern nba, especially in the playoffs?

but "NO IT IS OUTLAWED THEREFORE IT NEVER HAPPENS NO PLAYER TODAY EVER GETS HANDCHECKED OR DEALS WITH PHYSICALITY EVER BECAUSE IT WAS OUTLAWED AND PLAYERS ARE SOFT !!!!!!!!1!!1111!!!1!!!!!"



the double standards never cease to amaze :lmao

[lefty]

oh rly? kinda like how refs so often let handchecking and various forms of illegal contact and physicality slide in the modern nba, especially in the playoffs?

but "NO IT IS OUTLAWED THEREFORE IT NEVER HAPPENS NO PLAYER TODAY EVER GETS HANDCHECKED OR DEALS WITH PHYSICALITY EVER BECAUSE IT WAS OUTLAWED AND PLAYERS ARE SOFT !!!!!!!!1!!1111!!!1!!!!!"



the double standards never cease to amaze :lmao
Facts tbh

[Neo.]

How did Jordan's style of play ruin the game of basketball. Not the person himself but strictly how he played. Nobody claims that so i don't know what you are talking about.

i never said it did, but plenty of people have said it for years. its not hard to find articles on it, or wilts opinion, so on and so forth. "ISO MANIA!!!" "BALL HOGGERS!"


Yeah the 90s was rough to watch and this is also rough to watch too. That's my opinion. Lots of teams are jacking up 3s galore. Not Rockets style but still waaaay too much. Like why does Giannis or Embiid have to shoot a 3? Dude literally won a title when he stopped doing that bullshit

kinda like why were so many players taking MJ turnarounds and playing iso-ball that had no business doing so

its the fad. they come and go. all players have bad habits. not sure why we only want to pick on modern player bad habits.

[Dirks_Finale]

oh rly? kinda like how refs so often let handchecking and various forms of illegal contact and physicality slide in the modern nba, especially in the playoffs?

but "NO IT IS OUTLAWED THEREFORE IT NEVER HAPPENS NO PLAYER TODAY EVER GETS HANDCHECKED OR DEALS WITH PHYSICALITY EVER BECAUSE IT WAS OUTLAWED AND PLAYERS ARE SOFT !!!!!!!!1!!1111!!!1!!!!!"



the double standards never cease to amaze :lmao

Strawman. Never said all that..

[Neo.]

Strawman. Never said all tha.

lol ok

[TDMVPDPOY]

DK played against bs competition at his position, could care less about physical defense when those clowns will be fouled in anything post 2000 with the defensive specialist players....