Lebron vs. Kobe - Round 132756612891

[ambchang]

Another take on Kobe vs. Lebron, but this time specifically around specific attributes:

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/mark-jackson-says-he-would-rather-have-kobe-bryants-mentality-over-lebron-james-basketball-iq

Mark Jackson, one of the most cerebral players and greatest coaches ever, sided with Kobe's mentality over Lebron James' basketball IQ, citing that would make him successful in life rather than just basketball.

it's a great read, from THE greatest basketball mind alive - Mark Jackson.

[FrostKing]

Lebron higher basketball IQ than Kobe? Think this is just an elaborate way of saying James is less selfish but that ties into the fundamental difference in their positions - PG vs SG.

[Neo.]

kobes mentality because he will be more successful in life?

hm thats a very interesting take

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron higher basketball IQ than Kobe? Think this is just an elaborate way of saying James is less selfish but that ties into the fundamental difference in their positions - PG vs SG.

Agreed.

Just because his shot selection often sucked, people assume that Kobe did not have a high basketball IQ. Wrong.

Lebron will likely finish the all time leader in points and might even finish 2nd in assists. So ultimately he moves above Kobe and Kareem thanks to incredible longevity. But was his IQ greater than Kobe's? Not so sure.

[ambchang]

Agreed.

Just because his shot selection often sucked, people assume that Kobe did not have a high basketball IQ. Wrong.

Lebron will likely finish the all time leader in points and might even finish 2nd in assists. So ultimately he moves above Kobe and Kareem thanks to incredible longevity. But was his IQ greater than Kobe's? Not so sure.

So what’s the angle of Kobe having a higher, or even equal, bball iq when compared to lebron? Lebron on the court is devastating. He rarely makes incorrect decisions, involves his teammates and is one of the best GMs of his generation.

Kobe is famous for shooting fade away threes over a triple team, running off shaq and mentally abusing mvpau.

[Neo.]

Agreed.

Just because his shot selection often sucked, people assume that Kobe did not have a high basketball IQ. Wrong.

Lebron will likely finish the all time leader in points and might even finish 2nd in assists. So ultimately he moves above Kobe and Kareem thanks to incredible longevity. But was his IQ greater than Kobe's? Not so sure.

what good is knowledge if it isnt put to use?

yes, kobe had an incredible knowledge of the game of basketball, but he often misused it or didnt use it at all by frequently making poor decisions offensively and defensively

so if basketball iq is based on how knowledge is used when actually playing the game of basketball, then yes lebron clearly had a higher iq than kobe ever did, even if their pure knowledge was perhaps at comparable levels

[monosylab1k]

There’s 3 at the top.

Jordan is the greatest.

Kobe is the most skilled.

LeBron is the most talented.

[MultiTroll]

:lol Cryants "incredible mental toughness."

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.59a5e5eee2ac67ad4413ad128bdf92f0?rik=7iP2Qxr3ZEa tTg&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ultimatecoupons.com%2fblog%2f wp-content%2fuploads%2f2010%2f11%2fNBA-whining.jpg&ehk=HvMvVDGWpVCHE6xoteKD9pMKgVos1%2fUuo6n5YxOY10U% 3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

[Dirks_Finale]

what good is knowledge if it isnt put to use?

yes, kobe had an incredible knowledge of the game of basketball, but he often misused it or didnt use it at all by frequently making poor decisions offensively and defensively

so if basketball iq is based on how knowledge is used when actually playing the game of basketball, then yes lebron clearly had a higher iq than kobe ever did, even if their pure knowledge was perhaps at comparable levels

Kobe put it to use, usually later in games when possessions became more crucial.

And I have always thought you can make the right basketball play, but not necessarily the winning play. Often times Lebron was Magic Johnson in closing moments when they needed him to be more like Jordan. I think his awful free throw shooting has something to do with all that. So down 2 in the closing moments, he will dish to Kyle Korver instead of risking a embarrassing trip to the line.

[Neo.]

Kobe put it to use, usually later in games when possessions became more crucial.

sometimes yes, sometimes no. he was inconsistent with it at best.


And I have always thought you can make the right basketball play, but not necessarily the winning play. Often times Lebron was Magic Johnson in closing moments when they needed him to be more like Jordan. I think his awful free throw shooting has something to do with all that. So down 2 in the closing moments, he will dish to Kyle Korver instead of risking a embarrassing trip to the line.

so i guess that means shaq should have been shooting more jumpshots in the clutch simply since hes supposed to make a "winning play" and be willing to take a bad shot simply because hes the "alpha"

do you even think before you post the stupid crap you do?

[Dirks_Finale]

So what’s the angle of Kobe having a higher, or even equal, bball iq when compared to lebron? Lebron on the court is devastating. He rarely makes incorrect decisions, involves his teammates and is one of the best GMs of his generation.

Kobe is famous for shooting fade away threes over a triple team, running off shaq and mentally abusing mvpau.

I don't know if Kobe had a higher bball IQ. I would say they are comparable. Lebron is a point forward and Kobe a SG. They will naturally have different mentalities and differ some on shot selection.

But you are correct about the 2nd sentence in your post. Awful leader, imo. I'm still shocked he somehow won back to back in 09 and 2010.

[Dirks_Finale]

sometimes yes, sometimes no. he was inconsistent with it at best.



so i guess that means shaq should have been shooting more jumpshots in the clutch simply since hes supposed to make a "winning play" and be willing to take a bad shot simply because hes the "alpha"



Thanks for proving my point about Lebron's flawed game. Even comparing his FT shooting to Shaq :lol

And Shaq had balls. He was alpha. Wasn't scared to go to the line like Lebron is regardless of his percentages.

[Neo.]

Thanks for proving my point about Lebron's flawed game.

no one said his game was flawless. there is not one player ever that had a flawless game, but lebron is one who has among the fewest ever.


Even comparing his FT shooting to Shaq :lol

i actually did not compare their FT shooting. just gave an example of someone with a noticeable weakness in their game, and that the argument of using a weakness to try to win games in clutch moments is a completely stupid idea. you have serious comprehension issues.


And Shaq had balls. He was alpha. Wasn't scared to go to the line like Lebron is regardless of his percentages.

lets not act like lebron hasnt hit clutch FTs when he needed to. hes literally sealed two different game 7s in the NBA finals with clutch free throws.

[Dirks_Finale]

no one said his game was flawless. there is not one player ever that had a flawless game, but lebron is one who has among the fewest ever.



i actually did not compare their FT shooting. just gave an example of someone with a noticeable weakness in their game, and that the argument of using a weakness to try to win games in clutch moments is a completely stupid idea. you have serious comprehension issues.



lets not act like lebron hasnt hit clutch FTs when he needed to. hes literally sealed two different game 7s in the NBA finals with clutch free throws.

I have a question for you, oh ye of infinite basketball knowledge, did you follow KG's career fairly closely?

[Neo.]

I have a question for you, oh ye of infinite basketball knowledge, did you follow KG's career fairly closely?

cut to the chase and make your crappy point

let me guess, a dirk vs kg comparison?

[Dirks_Finale]

cut to the chase and make your crappy point

let me guess, a dirk vs kg comparison?

Nice non answer.

I will assume you did.

So then, you must be real fond of how KG would constantly defer to players like Michael Olowakandi in the clutch. :lol

Lebron vs Detroit in 2007. That is who he often needed to be but decided not to be. He would have more accolades than Jordan right now and hands down the GOAT if he had a Kobe or Jordan type mentality and sacrificed some deferment for more assertion, regardless of who appeared to be some what open on such and such play. I know you are a huge fan of his and don't expect you to acknowledge any of this and just continue to stick to the script, though.

[Neo.]

Nice non answer.

I will assume you did.

So then, you must be real fond of how KG would constantly defer to players like Michael Olowakandi in the clutch. :lol

Lebron vs Detroit in 2007. That is who he often needed to be but decided not to be. He would have more accolades than Jordan right now and hands down the GOAT if he had a Kobe or Jordan type mentality and sacrificed some deferment for more assertion, regardless of who appeared to be some what open on such and such play. I know you are a huge fan of his and don't expect you to acknowledge any of this and just continue to stick to the script, though.

again, you dont even know what you yourself have been saying

many times you have talked about all these glaring weaknesses lebron has such as his abilities to shoot, inconsistent midrange game and underwhelming FT shooting

yet you expect him to use the weak aspects of his game in the most important moments of a game, and you claim that by him using such weaknesses at such times that he would have more accolades than jordan

please tell me how that makes sense

[Neo.]

additionally, if you want to talk about the detroit series, look at how detroit guarded him in that game, compared to how teams like golden state and the spurs have guarded him in recent years

detroit basically went straight 1v1 on defense and never adjusted

the warriors and spurs would consistently provide weakside help at the rim and cut off driving lanes by shading other defenders off lebrons weaker teammates

if lebron played in the 90s where he could enjoy 1v1 all game long, he would have easily been doing what he did against detroit to everyone

[Dirks_Finale]

Confidence, Neo. It comes by conquering your fears. I look at this guy at times, like 2011 (and some of the 2013 Finals), and see someone who doubts himself too often. Say what you will about Kobe, but he never lacked in that department. Sometimes he exhibited maybe too much.

But you appear to be more impressed by guys who play it safe and defer to Kyle Korver, etc. And that's okay and it's not a dig, actually, it's the right basketball play if you are going textbook. But it may also lead to a 4-6 Finals record, unfortunately.


again, you dont even know what you yourself have been saying

many times you have talked about all these glaring weaknesses lebron has such as his abilities to shoot, inconsistent midrange game and underwhelming FT shooting

yet you expect him to use the weak aspects of his game in the most important moments of a game, and you claim that by him using such weaknesses at such times that he would have more accolades than jordan

please tell me how that makes sense

[Dirks_Finale]

additionally, if you want to talk about the detroit series, look at how detroit guarded him in that game, compared to how teams like golden state and the spurs have guarded him in recent years

detroit basically went straight 1v1 on defense and never adjusted

the warriors and spurs would consistently provide weakside help at the rim and cut off driving lanes by shading other defenders off lebrons weaker teammates

if lebron played in the 90s where he could enjoy 1v1 all game long, he would have easily been doing what he did against detroit to everyone

Yes, they did bring weakside help at times. And Lebron had opportunites to force the issue but did not and we know why he did not. And no I'm not saying he is supposed to be an idiot and run into crowd every play so please don't straw man; I'm saying you pick your spots and do so unafraid. He could have been more assertive at times and I think you realize that.

[Neo.]

Confidence, Neo. It comes by conquering your fears. I look at this guy at times, like 2011 (and some of the 2013 Finals), and see someone who doubts himself too often. Say what you will about Kobe, but he never lacked in that department. Sometimes he exhibited maybe too much.

:lmao :lmao :lmao @ "confidence" being the solution :lmao :lmao


But you appear to be more impressed by guys who play it safe and defer to Kyle Korver, etc. And that's okay and it's not a dig, actually, it's the right basketball play if you are going textbook.

well he won 4 championships and 4 mvps doing it his way, so id say hes been quite successful


But it may also lead to a 4-6 Finals record, unfortunately.

not sure how a 4-6 record is an unfortunate thing. how many players ever have gotten 4 finals MVPs?

[Neo.]

Yes, they did bring weakside help at times. And Lebron had opportunites to force the issue but did not and we know why he did not. And no I'm not saying he is supposed to be an idiot and run into crowd every play so please don't straw man; I'm saying you pick your spots and do so unafraid. He could have been more assertive at times and I think you realize that.

so basically your issue with him is that he didnt find a perfect balance

newsflash: no one has. not even his airness. the closest ive seen is bird and duncan, but even they have had their flaws in that area through their careers.

[ambchang]

I don't know if Kobe had a higher bball IQ. I would say they are comparable. Lebron is a point forward and Kobe a SG. They will naturally have different mentalities and differ some on shot selection.

But you are correct about the 2nd sentence in your post. Awful leader, imo. I'm still shocked he somehow won back to back in 09 and 2010.

So why would you say Kobe had comparable iq as Lebron? Running shaq off? Wanted to trade for kidd?

[Dirks_Finale]

:lmao :lmao :lmao @ "confidence" being the solution :lmao :lmao



well he won 4 championships and 4 mvps doing it his way, so id say hes been quite successful



not sure how a 4-6 record is an unfortunate thing. how many players ever have gotten 4 finals MVPs?

Yeah running to other franchises and stacking the deck is his way :lol

I suppose Durant will be the next one with 4 Finals MVP's thanks to bolting and stacking.

[Dirks_Finale]

So why would you say Kobe had comparable iq as Lebron? Running shaq off? Wanted to trade for kidd?

I mean that's alpha ego stuff and not related to his BBall IQ, imo. And if a person wanted to make that argument, he ran Shaq off and won w/o him. And he did so without running away like Lebron and Durant did, so...

[Neo.]

Yeah running to other franchises and stacking the deck is his way :lol

I suppose Durant will be the next one with 4 Finals MVP's thanks to bolting and stacking.

well not everyone can be gifted with a kareem/worthy, mchale/parish, pippen, or shaq early in their careers

no no no, real players should be expected to win multiple championships with drew gooden larry hughes and big z as part of your dynamic quartet facing off against mediocre 4s such as kg/pierce/allen/rondo, or kobe/pau/bynum/odom

[monosylab1k]

I mean that's alpha ego stuff and not related to his BBall IQ, imo. And if a person wanted to make that argument, he ran Shaq off and won w/o him. And he did so without running away like Lebron and Durant did, so...

Kobe demanded to be traded multiple times. In today’s NBA he’d have played for 3-4 teams.

[ambchang]

I mean that's alpha ego stuff and not related to his BBall IQ, imo. And if a person wanted to make that argument, he ran Shaq off and won w/o him. And he did so without running away like Lebron and Durant did, so...

But you claimed he has equal bball iq as Lebron. How?

Jerry west traded for mvpau. Kobe didn’t.

[ambchang]

Kobe demanded to be traded multiple times. In today’s NBA he’d have played for 3-4 teams.

Kobe forced the trade to stack his deck BEFORE he got drafted.

[Dirks_Finale]

But you claimed he has equal bball iq as Lebron. How?

Jerry west traded for mvpau. Kobe didn’t.

Comparable, imo. I mean his decision making and shot selection was usually better in 4th quarters. Good at exploiting mismatches. Picked up on the triangle fairly easily.

Not denying Lebron has a high bball IQ.i just think if there is a gap between the two in that department it's not nearly as wide as advertised. People like Mark Jackson making his comments would lead you to believe that Kobe wasn't that bright when in actuality his 'problem' is what made him great to begin with. Too much alpha.

[Dirks_Finale]

Kobe demanded to be traded multiple times. In today’s NBA he’d have played for 3-4 teams.

True.

[Dirks_Finale]

Kobe forced the trade to stack his deck BEFORE he got drafted.

Kobe/ Pau and drug addict Odom is not exactly Lebron, finals MVP Wade and Bosh.

[Neo.]

Kobe/ Pau and drug addict Odom is not exactly Lebron, finals MVP Wade and Bosh.

lol forgetting that a healthy andrew bynum at that time was arguably the best all around center in the NBA, and acting like wade was remotely the same as himself in 06 pre-injuries

[Killakobe81]

There’s 3 at the top.

Jordan is the greatest.

Kobe is the most skilled.

LeBron is the most talented.

I can agree with that and Kobe being third overall is no slight. ALSO Kobe bad shot selection was ego not IQ driven which is actually worse. Bron willingness to trust scrubs and to take less bad shots than Kobe and even MJ should be admired. Mj still the GOAT though

[lefty]

what good is knowledge if it isnt put to use?

yes, kobe had an incredible knowledge of the game of basketball, but he often misused it or didnt use it at all by frequently making poor decisions offensively and defensively

so if basketball iq is based on how knowledge is used when actually playing the game of basketball, then yes lebron clearly had a higher iq than kobe ever did, even if their pure knowledge was perhaps at comparable levels

[lefty]

Jordan would be DeRozan if he played today tbh

[Killakobe81]

Back when I used to argue Kobe over Bron 2005-2011 he had no titles and the career numbers hadn't shifted his way. Even after Heatles Kobe had a case ...now Bron with the last two titles is in the MJ Kareem tier Kobe in the Shaq Duncan magic tier ...

[ambchang]

Comparable, imo. I mean his decision making and shot selection was usually better in 4th quarters. Good at exploiting mismatches. Picked up on the triangle fairly easily.

Not denying Lebron has a high bball IQ.i just think if there is a gap between the two in that department it's not nearly as wide as advertised. People like Mark Jackson making his comments would lead you to believe that Kobe wasn't that bright when in actuality his 'problem' is what made him great to begin with. Too much alpha.

Just have to disagree with you on this. Kobe has some of the worst clutch percentage of supposedly clutch players where Lebron routinely makes good decisions.

If I read correctly, you prefer to have the superstar take the shot over making the right play because that’s the alpha thing to do. That’s a pretty low iq move.

[ambchang]

Kobe/ Pau and drug addict Odom is not exactly Lebron, finals MVP Wade and Bosh.

There’s by Bynum as well. Funny how mvpau led that team in advanced stats.

[ambchang]

Back when I used to argue Kobe over Bron 2005-2011 he had no titles and the career numbers hadn't shifted his way. Even after Heatles Kobe had a case ...now Bron with the last two titles is in the MJ Kareem tier Kobe in the Shaq Duncan magic tier ...

I can’t ever figure this part out. Shaq and Kobe are the same tier as Duncan, and all duncan had was an over the hill admiral and then later two raw talents in manu and parker. And yet they were 3-2 in the playoffs. Not to mention KFC supposedly owns Pop. How does that work?

[Dirks_Finale]

Just have to disagree with you on this. Kobe has some of the worst clutch percentage of supposedly clutch players where Lebron routinely makes good decisions.

If I read correctly, you prefer to have the superstar take the shot over making the right play because that’s the alpha thing to do. That’s a pretty low iq move.

No, only in certain situations. I do think the alpha guys should be assertive, though.

If it's the last shot of a deciding playoff game and I know my open role player is open for a reason(because he sucks badly), and/or he has not hit all game long and is not in rhythm, then make something happen.

Kobe shooting over 3 guys who are smashing him in the nuts for the last second shot is never a good shot. But the killer mentality is good, you just have to find the balance. I felt like Lebron struggled to find that balance because he doubted himself. Personal opinion, obviously.

[Dirks_Finale]

There’s by Bynum as well. Funny how mvpau led that team in advanced stats.

But what was Pau in Memphis? Viewed as a soft big who got pushed around and was a liability on defense. Something happened in LA and he appeared to grow some avocados. I'm not even sure who to credit for that as I have always thought Kobe was a poor leader. But you almost have to.

[Dirks_Finale]

I can’t ever figure this part out. Shaq and Kobe are the same tier as Duncan, and all duncan had was an over the hill admiral and then later two raw talents in manu and parker. And yet they were 3-2 in the playoffs. Not to mention KFC supposedly owns Pop. How does that work?

Duncan goes to Orlando a few decades ago and we are mentioning him in the GOAT conversation on the regular, imo. I think playing in the spur's system cost him personal accolades.

[ambchang]

No, only in certain situations. I do think the alpha guys should be assertive, though.

If it's the last shot of a deciding playoff game and I know my open role player is open for a reason(because he sucks badly), and/or he has not hit all game long and is not in rhythm, then make something happen.

Kobe shooting over 3 guys who are smashing him in the nuts for the last second shot is never a good shot. But the killer mentality is good, you just have to find the balance. I felt like Lebron struggled to find that balance because he doubted himself. Personal opinion, obviously.

But that’s not bball iq. Having a giant ego and choose a bad play to stroke your own ego is by definition bad bball iq. I can’t understand your point at all.

Does Kobe have big balls? Sure he does. Just at the detriment of his teams more often than not. He had some of the best marketing skills ever though. Can’t deny that.

[ambchang]

But what was Pau in Memphis? Viewed as a soft big who got pushed around and was a liability on defense. Something happened in LA and he appeared to grow some avocados. I'm not even sure who to credit for that as I have always thought Kobe was a poor leader. But you almost have to.

What was Kobe without shaq or mvpau? What was Lebron before his rings? What was magic when he coach killed? What was hakeem before he rang? What was shaq in Orlando?

Mvpau didn’t grow some avocados all of a sudden and it’s hilarious that almost every single argument for Kobe being an all time great are intangible things that are purely myths such as grit, big balls, pushing his teammates forward, clutch when every single one was proven to be false.

[ambchang]

Duncan goes to Orlando a few decades ago and we are mentioning him in the GOAT conversation on the regular, imo. I think playing in the spur's system cost him personal accolades.

Duncan would be in the hakeem tier, at best, if he only have one ring. He’s likely be in the dirk area.

[MultiTroll]

Something happened in LA and he appeared to grow some avocados. I'm not even sure who to credit for that
Uh vastly better players on his team including MVP LakerRef.

[MultiTroll]

Duncan would be in the hakeem tier, at best, if he only have one ring. He’s likely be in the dirk area.
and i wonder where CIA Pop would be.
:lol

[Dirks_Finale]

But that’s not bball iq. Having a giant ego and choose a bad play to stroke your own ego is by definition bad bball iq. I can’t understand your point at all.

Does Kobe have big balls? Sure he does. Just at the detriment of his teams more often than not. He had some of the best marketing skills ever though. Can’t deny that.

Yeah not sure how wise it was for KG to constantly defer to role players and lose in RD1 every year - but agree to disagree.

[Neo.]

Yeah not sure how wise it was for KG to constantly defer to role players and lose in RD1 every year - but agree to disagree.

the difference is no one has compared kg to kobe

they are on two completely different tiers of talent, accomplishments and greatness

[Dirks_Finale]

Duncan would be in the hakeem tier, at best, if he only have one ring. He’s likely be in the dirk area.

After watching Duncan in 03 with no stars next to him, I tend to think you could put him just about anywhere and he gets 3-4 rings.

[Dirks_Finale]

the difference is no one has compared kg to kobe

they are on two completely different tiers of talent, accomplishments and greatness

Both MVP players, and leaders of their teams, though.

[Neo.]

Both MVP players, and leaders of their teams, though.

its pretty obvious and well documented that kg had some issues in the clutch, which is one reason (among others) hes not considered up in those tiers of greatness

but is it simply because he wasn't an alpha?

fact is KG was not a particularly skilled scorer, compared to many other all time greats. he didnt have a skillset or go-to move that would make him consistently effective in the clutch against elite teams.

also, he often didnt have particularly talented scorers around him, so in the clutch it was very easy for teams to double him without worry. so whats he supposed to do, throw up a bad shot that hes not good at shooting to begin with against multiple defenders, or pass out in hopes to get some movement and for himself or a teammate to get a better look?

he had done both at different times in his career and got roasted either way, but it boils down to the fact that KG simply wasnt that type of player and was being held accountable for something he shouldnt have been. but unfortunately jordanstans and kobestans have completely ruined what the proper perspective of basketball players should be, and turned it into "durhrhrhrh if they dont take every single clutch shot themselves they are mentally weak and soft because mike won 6 rings and kobe won 5 durhrhrhrh" while completely ignoring that they were among the two most skilled scorers ever, and had stacked teams that perfectly covered their weaknesses and complimented them, something guys like KG didnt have for most of his career.

[ambchang]

Yeah not sure how wise it was for KG to constantly defer to role players and lose in RD1 every year - but agree to disagree.

KG didn’t have the necessary go to moves, especially in the post and especially in that era. That’s nothing to do with basketball iq or cajones. What was KG supposed to do? Force up a bad shot with four guys covering him or passing to Wally szcerbiak? How far did Kobe get without some allnba front court? As far as KG did with Trent hassel and Joe smith. RD1 ( or not making it all together).

[ambchang]

After watching Duncan in 03 with no stars next to him, I tend to think you could put him just about anywhere and he gets 3-4 rings.

03 was amazing, just as 94 was amazing. But a lot of things go well in those years and it’s hard to duplicate it, let alone do it 3 or 4 times. At some point all that energy will burn out.

[Dirks_Finale]

KG didn’t have the necessary go to moves, especially in the post and especially in that era. That’s nothing to do with basketball iq or cajones. What was KG supposed to do? Force up a bad shot with four guys covering him or passing to Wally szcerbiak? How far did Kobe get without some allnba front court? As far as KG did with Trent hassel and Joe smith. RD1 ( or not making it all together).

Well, it's true that KG wasn't exactly Duncan on the block, but I felt like he had enough moves to create when he needed to.

And I have a feeling that if you put Kobe with that same, mostly mediocre TWolve roster (minus KG obviously) he manages to get out of RD 1 a few times.

[ambchang]

Well, it's true that KG wasn't exactly Duncan on the block, but I felt like he had enough moves to create when he needed to.

And I have a feeling that if you put Kobe with that same, mostly mediocre TWolve roster (minus KG obviously) he manages to get out of RD 1 a few times.

What is that based on? Kobe never made it out the first round without the best frontcourt in the league.

Besides, Kobe is in Garnett’s level now?

[Dirks_Finale]

What is that based on? Kobe never made it out the first round without the best frontcourt in the league.

Besides, Kobe is in Garnett’s level now?

No, but he had 2 seed PHX on the brink with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton in the starting lineup. :lol I'm actually not a Kobe defender, but that had to be one of the worst supporting casts I've ever seen on a playoff team. They had no business even being there, tbh.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Tiers:

Bron -- Duncan

Kobe
Shaq

KG

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

I won't argue with anyone putting Bron over Duncan (probably reluctantly agree ... fvck!) -- but same tier

[Brazil]

:lol if not for the fact he is dead, Kobe would never be in any goat or top 5 conversations ever.. dude is a top 15 period.

[Neo.]

Well, it's true that KG wasn't exactly Duncan on the block, but I felt like he had enough moves to create when he needed to.

And I have a feeling that if you put Kobe with that same, mostly mediocre TWolve roster (minus KG obviously) he manages to get out of RD 1 a few times.

one, it's already been established that Kobe > KG so that's a stupid comparison to make

two, who is he going to beat with that roster out of Webber kings, Shaq Kobe Lakers, Duncan spurs, and big3 mavs? or if you back it up a couple years, subtract the mavs and add the blazers and jazz to the mix

[Neo.]

:lol if not for the fact he is dead, Kobe would never be in any goat or top 5 conversations ever.. dude is a top 15 period.

tbh even now, it's basically only kobestans and lebron haters who think he's a discussion for top 5 or goat. most people know that despite his supreme talent, his accomplishments simply don't add up to guys like Mike, Bron, Kareem, Duncan, magic or bird

[BD24]

We really need to stop comparing a top 5 all time player with 12. It’s not a comparison. Even entertaining the discussion is silly

[Brazil]

tbh even now, it's basically only kobestans and lebron haters who think he's a discussion for top 5 or goat. most people know that despite his supreme talent, his accomplishments simply don't add up to guys like Mike, Bron, Kareem, Duncan, magic or bird

That’s true for nba fans but for the rest the casual he is right there with MJ after his death.. pretty pathetic but that’s what it is.. just look at mainstream medias and social platforms.. dude is everywhere

[ambchang]

No, but he had 2 seed PHX on the brink with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Luke Walton in the starting lineup. :lol I'm actually not a Kobe defender, but that had to be one of the worst supporting casts I've ever seen on a playoff team. They had no business even being there, tbh.

So he didn’t.

Lebrons cavs team were worse. And he made it to the finals.

I can’t understand why people act like odom or butler wasn’t on those teams.

It’s like saying duncan dragged the team to a title with Nazr Mohamed as his best teammate.

[Rummpd]

There’s 3 at the top.

Jordan is the greatest.

Kobe is the most skilled.

LeBron is the most talented.


Kobe most skilled - high volume gunner and low PER? Jordan much more skilled and not even debatable.

[Dirks_Finale]

So he didn’t.

Lebrons cavs team were worse. And he made it to the finals.

I can’t understand why people act like odom or butler wasn’t on those teams.

It’s like saying duncan dragged the team to a title with Nazr Mohamed as his best teammate.

Odom was wildly inconsistent.

And I think that supporting cast Kobe had with the Lakers is very similar to what Lebron worked with, only in a MUCH tougher conference.

[monosylab1k]

Kobe most skilled - high volume gunner and low PER? Jordan much more skilled and not even debatable.

Do you need the word “skilled” defined for you?

Kobe was a better ballhandler, shooter, passer, and low post player than Jordan. His bag of tricks was much larger than Jordan’s. The problem with Kobe, as has already been explained here, was hubris.

Jordan was stronger, more athletic, and obviously had the deadliest midrange game ever. Jordan executed his much smaller bag of tricks to perfection. He was unstoppable in certain spots on the court. But in today’s NBA he never would have shot the 3-ball well enough to dominate like he did in the 90’s. I don’t know that he could execute the higher level passing we see now either. He’s still the greatest because he still dominated at a level we’ve never seen.

It’s not a crime to admit that Kobe had superior basketball skills to Jordan, or that LeBron’s complete package is the best we’ve ever seen. They still never dominated and controlled the league like Jordan did.

[ambchang]

Odom was wildly inconsistent.

And I think that supporting cast Kobe had with the Lakers is very similar to what Lebron worked with, only in a MUCH tougher conference.

Yeah so a similar supporting cast got one to the finals and the other a first round exit. We are not talking about first round vs second round. It’s the finals.

Lebron went through Detroit as well, it’s not like that was a bad team.

It’s funny how every player who played with Kobe got viewed at a worse light over time just to bump Kobe up. Odom, shaq, mvpau, Bynum, fisher, pedo, Payton, smush. It’s almost comical.

[lefty]

Dirk, Steph Curry and KD better than Kobe tbh

[lefty]

Do you need the word “skilled” defined for you?

Kobe was a better ballhandler, shooter, passer, and low post player than Jordan. His bag of tricks was much larger than Jordan’s. The problem with Kobe, as has already been explained here, was hubris.

Jordan was stronger, more athletic, and obviously had the deadliest midrange game ever. Jordan executed his much smaller bag of tricks to perfection. He was unstoppable in certain spots on the court. But in today’s NBA he never would have shot the 3-ball well enough to dominate like he did in the 90’s. I don’t know that he could execute the higher level passing we see now either. He’s still the greatest because he still dominated at a level we’ve never seen.

It’s not a crime to admit that Kobe had superior basketball skills to Jordan, or that LeBron’s complete package is the best we’ve ever seen. They still never dominated and controlled the league like Jordan did.

I agree, Kobe was more skilled than MJ , but Jordan was better

[ambchang]

I agree, Kobe was more skilled than MJ , but Jordan was better

Derozan was better?

[FrostKing]

Does anyone still talk about Defense around here? It has never been easier to score. What's the big deal.

[MultiTroll]

After watching Duncan in 03 with no stars next to him, I tend to think you could put him just about anywhere and he gets 3-4 rings.
Gee i wonder if Duncan could match Kobme if the Spurs were given MVPau for Matt Bonner.
Add in LakerRef in case games were close.

[Neo.]

Does anyone still talk about Defense around here? It has never been easier to score. What's the big deal.

was pretty darn easy through most of the 80s when there was no zone and no one even gave effort on defense other than the occasional hard foul when they felt disrespected

[lefty]

Derozan was better?

Well obviously

[lefty]

Does anyone still talk about Defense around here? It has never been easier to score. What's the big deal.

I agree, defense is better today

[Dirks_Finale]

Does anyone still talk about Defense around here? It has never been easier to score. What's the big deal.

Not sexy so it's been outlawed by the league, tbh.

[monosylab1k]

Scoring in the 80’s was at the same level as now, and they weren’t shooting 3’s :lmao

But yeah, sure, it was :cry great defense :cry because McHale clotheslined Rambis.

[Neo.]

Not sexy so it's been outlawed by the league, tbh.

proof?

because we've already pretty well covered the rules aspect a number of times with you, and shown that the rules actually allowed for more defense to be played and that you and many others have had a wrong understanding of a specific rule that had actually been in place since the 70s and continues to be called very infrequently as it pretty much always has

so whats your angle now? or are you just going to stick with claims proven to be factually incorrect both in rule and in observation?

[lefty]

Scoring in the 80’s was at the same level as now, and they weren’t shooting 3’s :lmao

But yeah, sure, it was :cry great defense :cry because McHale clotheslined Rambis.

:lol
“muhtoughnessphysicalera” :cry

[spurraider21]

I can agree with that and Kobe being third overall is no slight. ALSO Kobe bad shot selection was ego not IQ driven which is actually worse. Bron willingness to trust scrubs and to take less bad shots than Kobe and even MJ should be admired. Mj still the GOAT though
in lakers franchise history, maybe

[lefty]

in lakers franchise history, maybe
Lebron, AD, West, Kream, Shaq, Magic, Eddie Jordan, Pau, Mikan, Baylor, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes, Dwert, Wilt all ahead of Kobme tbh….

[Killakobe81]

in lakers franchise history, maybe

I meant in comparison to MJ and Bron ...
I have said many times Kobe is somewhere between 6 and 10.

[Dirks_Finale]

proof?

because we've already pretty well covered the rules aspect a number of times with you, and shown that the rules actually allowed for more defense to be played and that you and many others have had a wrong understanding of a specific rule that had actually been in place since the 70s and continues to be called very infrequently as it pretty much always has

so whats your angle now? or are you just going to stick with claims proven to be factually incorrect both in rule and in observation?

Yeah, it's called Steve Nash's career trajectory. :lol From tier 3 star to back to back MVP as soon they changed the rules. Not coincidental.

[Neo.]

Yeah, it's called Steve Nash's career trajectory. :lol From tier 3 star to back to back MVP as soon they changed the rules. Not coincidental.

except 1) the only rule that changed was allowing zone defense and 2) he went to a completely new situation

so basically you're going to stick with fake news because you have absolutely nowhere else to go to back up your crappy take. got it :tu

[Dirks_Finale]

Haha yeah sure the Don Nelson Mavs were slow it down grind it out right? Keep reaching

[Dirks_Finale]

Off topic for a moment - does everyone here over the age of 40 agree that Nash was the worst back to back MVP in NBA history and that Mark Price > Nash?

[Neo.]

Haha yeah sure the Don Nelson Mavs were slow it down grind it out right? Keep reaching

lol whining about reaching then subsequently thinking the nelson mavs were built anything remotely like d'antoni suns :lmao :lmao

[Arcadian]

Duncan goes to Orlando a few decades ago and we are mentioning him in the GOAT conversation on the regular, imo. I think playing in the spur's system cost him personal accolades.
Maybe some people would see it that way, but they would be wrong. Tim was the Spurs system for many years, he made the whole thing work, and if anything he should get more credit for being the sole superstar on multiple championship teams. If he had played with a co-superstar, that would make his career less impressive.

That's always the #1 criticism of other GOAT-tier players. "Kareem needed Oscar and Magic." "Jordan needed Pippen." "Shaq and Kobe needed each other." Duncan needed...David Robinson with degenerative disc disease, a shoot-first point guard, and a 6th man specialist.

[lefty]

proof?

because we've already pretty well covered the rules aspect a number of times with you, and shown that the rules actually allowed for more defense to be played and that you and many others have had a wrong understanding of a specific rule that had actually been in place since the 70s and continues to be called very infrequently as it pretty much always has

so whats your angle now? or are you just going to stick with claims proven to be factually incorrect both in rule and in observation?
Agreed tbh