Nine Random Thoughts After Spurs Beat Jazz in First Preseason Game

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/thoughts-san-antonio-spurs-win-preseason-opener/

[MultiTroll]

Do have money for Bryn Bryn Forms but don't have any to invest in Samanic?
That's dysfunction junction if Grandpa is still pulling this shit.

7. The Spurs have until Halloween to pick up the fourth year option on Samanic. If they do, he’ll get a guaranteed $4.5 million next season. As it appears right now, it wouldn’t be too surprising if the Spurs decline that option.

[raybies]

Sniff timvp... let go of your "hurt" and sniff this sniff with me of the young lord Primo.

Smell it's fullness and promise.

Sniff, don't hurt.

[BillMc]

Good read! Thanks OP.

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades. I missed the game and probably will miss all the pre-season games except fro 10/15 which I have tickets for. Viva Primo, glad the kid had a great opener.

[Mr. Body]

The trapping, active defense stood out. I'd be surprised to see Thad Young not traded by the end of preseason. Something's holding a trade up, it seems.

I'd be utterly surprised to see Samanic cut. That doesn't make any sense. Not picking up his option is another matter, but the salary is still pretty low. He's still so intriguing; my guess is his attitude is still an issue.

I see a lot of guards and wings thrown out at various times, almost position-lessly. A strength of the team is a lot of active, young players who can go hard, next-man-up style, plus almost everyone seems to have bought in. I can see them being a headache for opposing teams some nights.

That said, there are either only three or four playmakers on the team -- Murray, White, Jones and Primo. I'm unsure about Primo in those duties, Jones may not be ready for lots of minutes, Murray is more like a Parker type, where's not a natural PG, and White is good in the role. Staggering M and W is a great idea, until White inevitably gets hurt.

[BillMc]

It’s not hyperbolic to state that Doug McDermott, Lonnie Walker IV and Bryn Forbes are arguably three of the 10 to 15 worst defenders in the league. I think the Spurs could have a better than average defense this season but that’s far from a certainty given the players who appear to be in line to be in the rotation.

Ugh, Depressing. May the Forbes be with You.


The Spurs have until Halloween to pick up the fourth year option on Samanic. If they do, he’ll get a guaranteed $4.5 million next season. As it appears right now, it wouldn’t be too surprising if the Spurs decline that option.

Also depressing.

[spurs10]

Good read! Thanks OP. We don't ass a lot from you here Bill, butt I'd like to get to the bottom of the reasoning behind your hot cakes here.

[BillMc]

We don't ass a lot from you here Bill, butt I'd like to get to the bottom of the reasoning behind your pieces here.
:lol
:bobo

Spurs10 with the wordplay goods and well-rounded jokes.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

awwwwww yeahhhhhh spurs are back BABY

[Chinook]

I did consider the idea of Vassell playing PF earlier, though I thought it to be a worst-case scenario. I think the Spurs should more try to move Keldon back to PF and start someone with White and Murray. I don't know that White/Murray is a good pairing, and running a nine-man rotation in a year that's supposed to be about giving young players minutes is weird. If Young is still on the team and thus in the rotation, they probably try to get a 10th man in the rotation rather than bench their lotto guy. The easiest way to do that is starting one of Vassell, Walker or Forbes and letting Murray or White come off the bench. Ultimately, the team has too many guards to incumber their rotation like they're doing by insisting on the Murray/White pairing that continues to take the ball out of the hands of the other starters. Also having Johnson start just makes it worse.

I think of all the possible horses Pop could've chosen to ride with from his stable that's picking the three worst ones. Especially if they don't consider Young a clear member of their team, the goal should be developing their high-upside players by integrating them into the team rather than shunting them to the bench or out of the rotation so they're more-differentiated players can get the touches. That's basically what they did last year, but instead of former All-Star --caliber, max-contract guys, and proven vets getting the touches, it's guys who haven't done half of what those guys have done and whose biggest claims to fame are outplaying their late-20s draft position. That's different, but not better. They're actually stacking up lotto talent on their roster now, and the goal should be getting those guys to out-perform their draft stocks. That doesn't mean that the Spurs need to get rid of anyone who's not a lotto pick and force their young guys into big roles. But there's room for creativity with the rotation to both develop the blue-chippers and build a team that can win some games. Right now, I don't think they've put themselves in a position to do anything but reinforce the class system from previous iterations of the club but without any underpinning logic behind it. There doesn't have to be a "big three" now just because there used to be one. The Spurs' marketing staff and coaches need to think about their team differently lest they reinforce bad habits.

That all said, I actually think the Spurs will play a different rotation tomorrow. I imagine Young was resting more than he was being held out for a trade, though we'll see. Detroit's bench isn't going to force the Spurs to change how they play, so we should get a more honestly look at Pop's plan. Hopefully, Pop hasn't gone as far as I fear and realizes the hierarchy on the team is still fluid and that Primo's got to get minutes if he merits it. None of Murray, White, Forbes or even Johnson should stand in the way of that. And unless the Spurs are in full tank mode, a couple of seconds aren't worth not having one of their best players suit up. He'd do a tremendous disservice to the club if he falls too in love with this iteration of the roster. The time of thinking of the club as basically stable and that trades are a last resort or only for fringe players is past.

[Dejounte]

Blah blah blah my expert evaluation of players tell me coach is playing the wrong players and I hate the way they do things now so I’m going to keep crying about how my ex boyfriend DeMar is gone now and how nobody else measures up

[Chinook]

Blah blah blah my expert evaluation of players tell me coach is playing the wrong players and I hate the way they do things now so I’m going to keep crying about how my ex boyfriend DeMar is gone now and how nobody else measures up

Dude you're acting such a damned baby. Like I get that you don't agree with me, but you running around following me or referencing me just to make silly homophobic takes is so lame.

I've also never said I wanted the Spurs to keep DeRozan and didn't want that. It's one of your fundamental misunderstandings that you know is wrong but keep repeating like that win-shares are based on a team's record and that being on a bad team explains a player having low WS/48. You know it's wrong but cling to it, shitting all over your credibility.

[Dejounte]

Dude you're acting such a damned baby. Like I get that you don't agree with me, but you running around following me or referencing me just to make silly homophobic takes is so lame.

I've also never said I wanted the Spurs to keep DeRozan and didn't want that. It's one of your fundamental misunderstandings that you know is wrong but keep repeating like that win-shares are based on a team's record and that being on a bad team explains a player having low WS/48. You know it's wrong but cling to it, shitting all over your credibility.

It isn’t wrong and it’s so funny that you pull shit out of your ass and come up with convoluted ass posts just to arrive at a simple, yet idiotic point. What’s ironic here is you criticized TD 21 for “posting something that comes off as fact but isn’t” when that’s your bread and butter but you disguise it with your excessively long takes.

[spurs10]

:lol
:bobo

Spurs10 with the wordplay goods and well-rounded jokes. Not bummed with your response!

[raybies]

Dude you're acting such a damned baby. Like I get that you don't agree with me, but you running around following me or referencing me just to make silly homophobic takes is so lame.

I've also never said I wanted the Spurs to keep DeRozan and didn't want that. It's one of your fundamental misunderstandings that you know is wrong but keep repeating like that win-shares are based on a team's record and that being on a bad team explains a player having low WS/48. You know it's wrong but cling to it, shitting all over your credibility.

He's a pretty sus dood tbh... he's been doing that a lot around here.. really just needs to take a break from the site tbh. Been there, when everything starts bugging you etc just need space.. kids got 10000 posts in a few years... i can't imagine how much time he spends here LUL not to mention the last three years were probably the worst three years since he's been alive and following the team...

[mookie2001]

Forbes and Primo remind me of the splash brothers Klay Thompson

[tbdog]

Does timvp have a podcast?

[spurraider21]

This article is totally unfair to Samanic. We all knew he was a 6 year project so expecting anything from him in year 3 was unrealistic and not part of the plan.

[BillMc]

Not bummed with your response!

Yes, but we can't leave this all behind.

[BillMc]

Does timvp have a podcast?

He should. That would be great!

[Rummpd]

Good write up but this mismatched team heading for likely a 11 place finish just bad enough to blow another draft choice with the sublime front office.
Don't be fooled by Primo it is the pre-season only.

[ismael-robert]

I was reading then got sent to malicious site and couldn't finish

[SAGirl]

Thanks for these comments. I enjoyed reading them and agreed with many of your points and they were well articulated.

For general unsolicited feedback, I'll share that I prefer these kind of comments to the grades. I appreciate reading the grades when I miss games but by their nature they are subjective relative to expectations and superficial, while posts like this show me more of what you really think. I commend you for the grades and appreciate them it's just that posts like these are my favorite so I want to acknowledge them as special and thank you for them too.

Ok now to the content. I agree with your opinion on the Samanic situation and I am thankful you were candid about it.

He's definitely on thin ice, enough for the team to offer a contract to KBD. Luka may play a lot more minutes in the next few preseason games but it should be interpreted as an opportunity for him to convince the Spurs that he's worth continuing to invest in, as you say not just for this season but for $4.5 million for the next one. The Spurs may be ready to cut their loses with him and not extend him and if he's not extended why continue to spend resources developing him?

If he doesn't play much more than he did in the first game, I would think that the Spurs have seen enough of him already to make up their minds. I think KBD is not some token signing. Beyond the fact KBD received guaranteed money for a training camp invite, here's the problem for Luka: he's not cracking this rotation unless there are injuries and I think as the Spurs get younger and younger, and draft lottery talents, he will be faced with more and better competition from other prospects that are also trying to break in the league. His competition for minutes is now coming in from Vassell, a better defender than him (and probably a better prospect as well) and Josh Primo, a lottery pick who may soon prove to be too good for the Gleague. Therefore Luka is reduced to injury insurance and a practice body. It's a good problem to have, that the Spurs have better prospects.

The Spurs are a business and if they can't envision Luka as a rotation player going forward, they can get similar production from a KBD type for less and that difference would be $ significant next season. And when you think of next season, one has to think that there are already prospects on their radar. Samanic is going to continue to get pushed. He'd have to show that he has more upside than just roster depth.

I think it's to be expected that as the Spurs get younger and continue to add more prospects, not all are going to make it. They will keep the best and afford enough opportunity to everyone, but some are probably not going to find their footing in the league until they are older, have toiled in other teams, or quite simply they wash out.

I am no longer critical about the pick because it's part of the process that not everyone will pan out and the Spurs still do better drafting than most.

The final aspect with Luka is something that we don't know. The coaching staff sees him all the time, behind the closed doors of the gym. If he's not a guy that's going to be happy just being a deep bench player waving towels and they could see that he's not going to crack the rotation he may not be a fit for the team moving forward. There are things like him not wanting to participate in summer league when he could have benefited from it and built up confidence and chemistry that concerned me as well.

I think I have changed my mind and now believe that he's unlikely to make it.

[SAGirl]

Blah blah blah my expert evaluation of players tell me coach is playing the wrong players and I hate the way they do things now so I’m going to keep crying about how my ex boyfriend DeMar is gone now and how nobody else measures up
I mean, at least Chinook took time to explain his reasoning and even if I don't agree with everything he's said, I do think the first look at the team isn't set in stone and that experimentation will likely be a part of T the season. I also think Primo will probably push for minutes. He's unlikely to get them right away bbecause Pop is going to the veterans furst, but situations will arise during the season, whether because of someone's delicate feet getting hurt, or the offense stuttering that will usher him in and he's probably going to show what we have already seen, he's a young player with a lot of offensive potential that can contribute in some fashion right away.

Anyways I have already said more than I intended but I just wanted to let you know that even though I may have also disagreed at times I appreciated your contributions when you added to the discussions. What happened to that guy? Did your account get hacked? Nowadays you just visit us here to complain about someone or another poster without even telling us much of what you think.

[james evans]

It's preseason. I've never watched a full preseason nfl or nba game in my life. These games don't count and the only people that play hard are the rookies and people trying to get a roster spot.

[SAGirl]

He's a pretty sus dood tbh... he's been doing that a lot around here.. really just needs to take a break from the site tbh. Been there, when everything starts bugging you etc just need space.. kids got 10000 posts in a few years... i can't imagine how much time he spends here LUL not to mention the last three years were probably the worst three years since he's been alive and following the team...
:rollin:lol
This was hilarious. Lol

[MannyIsGod]

I don't see how Luka survives honestly. KBD, someone who basically has no realistic upside, is playing before him. The initial KBD signing was a bad sign for Luka, and now in the FIRST preseason game he's already in the rotation above him? Luka must be showing jack shit in camp because god damn.

[Chinook]

It isn’t wrong and it’s so funny that you pull shit out of your ass and come up with convoluted ass posts just to arrive at a simple, yet idiotic point. What’s ironic here is you criticized TD 21 for “posting something that comes off as fact but isn’t” when that’s your bread and butter but you disguise it with your excessively long takes.

Yes, it is wrong. It's not something you can "disagree about", because the stat is what it is. Does that mean it's useful? No. But it's not something that scales with wins and can't be explained away by saying that guys who are disappointing in that stat are only such because of being on a bad team. Simply looking at the WS/48 of the other players on the same team dispels that. And I know you know that, since you took a bunch of time to try to vet the stat over a random sequence of posts. You're just on a lame shtick right now.

I'm usually pretty clear over when something is my opinion rather than a fact, and people who aren't you don't really seem to have a problem differentiating. Just like how you thought my speculation about Simmons was the same thing as me pretending I had a source and was reporting a trade or whatever. You're not stupid. You're ornery to the point that it's stale, but you're not stupid. You have the basic reasoning skills to know when a statement is fact or assertion. You're choosing to pretend to have reading comprehension issues because you don't like that I have a different opinion than you. It's dumb, but it's intentional on your part. You're not stupid, but you're trying to use stupid tactics because you're tired of trying to debate legitimately and don't know how to just ignore posts.

[tmtcsc]

It was great to learn that Primo had a solid game. However, like TIMVP inferred, let's pump the breaks on anything more than just a good outing. My hope is that he isn't sent to the G League and that he garners real minutes in the NBA. It's a luxury we can afford with the team not contending for much.

As for Samanich, he's dead man walking. Just end the charade already.

[Chinook]

I forgot to add that the best explanation for how the Spurs could both be trying to win AND still hold Young out for a trade is if they're trying to trade him for win-now help. I'm going to assume for this conversation that Simmons would be the target. The question would then be, "Why are guys like Murray playing then if the Spurs are holding out Young?" The answer to that would be, "Because they aren't part of the team's trade proposal". If that speculation holds, then that would suggest the Spurs are probably offering a deal based mainly on AFA and Young being the salary ballast. Even if Jones and picks are included, that's a crazy-low offer and one I'm not sure is even in the Spurs' best interest for the Sixers to accept anyway. That White, Murray and Johnson are all off the table would align with the protections SAC and Minny put on their guys, but it would be weird if that offer were serious enough to where the Spurs would continue to hold out Young out. You'd think the Spurs would know that's not close.

[koriwhat]

I'm shocked by Lonnie's lack of defense. I am probably and horribly wrong but I remember Lonnie being touted as a defensive player coming into the league. What happened?

[raybies]

:rollin:lol
This was hilarious. Lol

:downspin:

[rankingtear]

1445752183606034445

Lonnie is the secondary creator off the bench the role Primo should develop into.
Bryn is the off-ball space creator.

If it is Bryn and Primo is the spot up guy i would rather him go to the G-League and get on ball reps, let the spurs field offers for Lonnie or White until the deadline to clear up ball handling duties.

No idea why Pop and SA are still high on Lonnie after that disaster showing in the play-in. Doubt they bench him.

[OldMan88]

…There are things like him (Samanic) not wanting to participate in summer league when he could have benefited from it and built up confidence and chemistry that concerned me as well.

I don’t think Samanic was eligible to play in summer league this year.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I forgot to add that the best explanation for how the Spurs could both be trying to win AND still hold Young out for a trade is if they're trying to trade him for win-now help. I'm going to assume for this conversation that Simmons would be the target. The question would then be, "Why are guys like Murray playing then if the Spurs are holding out Young?" The answer to that would be, "Because they aren't part of the team's trade proposal". If that speculation holds, then that would suggest the Spurs are probably offering a deal based mainly on AFA and Young being the salary ballast. Even if Jones and picks are included, that's a crazy-low offer and one I'm not sure is even in the Spurs' best interest for the Sixers to accept anyway. That White, Murray and Johnson are all off the table would align with the protections SAC and Minny put on their guys, but it would be weird if that offer were serious enough to where the Spurs would continue to hold out Young out. You'd think the Spurs would know that's not close.

While I don't see the Sixers accepting such a low offer for Simmons just yet, I do see a possibility that Spurs are looking to trade Young + assets for a win-now player, rather than the expected Young for assets kind of trade.

Young for Philly's 22 first and filler would also be decent for both teams as part of the Simmons trade elsewhere, or after it.

As for Simmons to the Spurs my best offer would be White/Murray + Young + Vassell + Chicago pick. I expect they'd eventually get a better offer from some other team though.

[Chinook]

I don’t think Samanic was eligible to play in summer league this year.

There's no age or tenure cap to play in the SL (guys likes Beasley and Ayres have done so), and as far as I know there's no other possible cap. My guess is the sides just didn't want to do it.

[Chinook]

While I don't see the Sixers accepting such a low offer for Simmons just yet, I do see a possibility that Spurs are looking to trade Young + assets for a win-now player, rather than the expected Young for assets kind of trade.

Young for Philly's 22 first and filler would also be decent for both teams as part of the Simmons trade elsewhere, or after it.

As for Simmons to the Spurs my best offer would be White/Murray + Young + Vassell + Chicago pick. I expect they'd eventually get a better offer from some other team though.

My only issue with a Young-for-win-now-player trade is finding a team that both wants to win now but also has a player the Spurs would want. As far as a young player goes, I'd think it would be either a player whose team doesn't know if they want to offer an extension or a player who's on a fresh extension but whose team might be regretting it. There are some guys on that list like Ingram, Kuzma, Siakam, Ayton, JJJ and such, but most of those guys are probably out of a conservative price range for the Spurs, and Kuzma is unappetizing even if he checks a bunch of boxes. I think they'll be quite a few more candidates after 1/15, but if the Spurs' goal is to trade Young ASAP, I don't know they can wait that long.

[exstatic]

I don’t think Samanic was eligible to play in summer league this year.

I’ve seen guys in their 30s in SL, vets trying to claw their way back, Jarrett Jack was one. There no age or experience limit cutoff.

[raybies]

It was great to learn that Primo had a solid game. However, like TIMVP inferred, let's pump the breaks on anything more than just a good outing. My hope is that he isn't sent to the G League and that he garners real minutes in the NBA. It's a luxury we can afford with the team not contending for much.

As for Samanich, he's dead man walking. Just end the charade already.
... you are missing the adrenaline that sports can offer... me on the other hand:

https://media.giphy.com/media/8QRbtgDmOC398QBBBM/giphy.gif

[raybies]

While I don't see the Sixers accepting such a low offer for Simmons just yet, I do see a possibility that Spurs are looking to trade Young + assets for a win-now player, rather than the expected Young for assets kind of trade.

Young for Philly's 22 first and filler would also be decent for both teams as part of the Simmons trade elsewhere, or after it.

As for Simmons to the Spurs my best offer would be White/Murray + Young + Vassell + Chicago pick. I expect they'd eventually get a better offer from some other team though.
I don't mind that at all. Both Murray or White would make perfect 3rd option players, both need the ball etc.. I'd try to do Walker before Vassell though. I think holistically it would benefit him with a change of scenery and he's closer to a contract then Vassell. Vasoline got a few more good years of affordable service and more time to see what he can do. Other than that I think that's about all I would do at this point.

[itzsoweezee]

If they cut Luka Sandwich, I’m going to be annoyed. I’ve been a big critic, but it’s too early to just dump him now. I’d rather see Luka get some real minutes than Bryn trotted out every game.

[Proxy]

I forgot to add that the best explanation for how the Spurs could both be trying to win AND still hold Young out for a trade is if they're trying to trade him for win-now help. I'm going to assume for this conversation that Simmons would be the target. The question would then be, "Why are guys like Murray playing then if the Spurs are holding out Young?" The answer to that would be, "Because they aren't part of the team's trade proposal". If that speculation holds, then that would suggest the Spurs are probably offering a deal based mainly on AFA and Young being the salary ballast. Even if Jones and picks are included, that's a crazy-low offer and one I'm not sure is even in the Spurs' best interest for the Sixers to accept anyway. That White, Murray and Johnson are all off the table would align with the protections SAC and Minny put on their guys, but it would be weird if that offer were serious enough to where the Spurs would continue to hold out Young out. You'd think the Spurs would know that's not close.

maybe it's just not worth being that transparent about it due to the risk of creating chemistry rifts... in the likely scenario where a simmons trade doesn't happen. Protecting Young's health for a possible trade doesn't generate those lockeroom issues like sitting Murray and White would

[Proxy]

always assumed Luka getting drafted was a long term commitment given his age, and that he'd be scooped up by other teams as he potentially blossomed. If he's playing like dogshit at practice to the point of the team abandoning that plan, then... damn

[offset formation]

I'm shocked by Lonnie's lack of defense. I am probably and horribly wrong but I remember Lonnie being touted as a defensive player coming into the league. What happened?

I have multiple posts on here going back to his first year call ups and his defense in the G-League highlighting how atrocious his defense was. I remember nephew's first game back thread and stating how horrible his D was in person. And I saw the same shit in Austin in person.

Not sure I recall him ever being labeled a plus defender and all I've ever seen from him has been sub-par at best. it's really been clear from day 1.

[objective]

I'm not on the Primo superstar hype express yet. Still very suspect about what was a lack of explosiveness in college and summer league, his fast break scoring was terrible, and he didn't have any lift or much of a step on guys. But maybe with nba training he improves a lot.

Luka was even more listless to start his shift than usual. He had the body language of someone who's already quit. But he did turn it around some as he got warmed up. Doesn't look good for him surviving, but I'd still rather have him than Bates-Diop.

[The Truth #6]

For all of the talk of DDR’s depression, I honestly worry more about Luka. Rooting for the guy but his personality, or something else, seems to be holding him back. But even still, I find it crazy that Pop can’t find one game to give him heavy minutes and get more info to work off of.

[Sugus]

If they cut Luka Sandwich, I’m going to be annoyed. I’ve been a big critic, but it’s too early to just dump him now. I’d rather see Luka get some real minutes than Bryn trotted out every game.

That makes two of us. Man, it's annoying to constantly have to wonder what if...?, the same way it was constantly annoying to wonder whether Dejounte and White could play together. Pop is just too CIA for his own damn good sometimes.

If he sucks, he sucks; why don't you play him 20-30m a couple nights and let him show you out on the court? Spurs staff can't possibly think that just his effort on practice (we talkin' 'bout practice...) and garbage time is enough of a gauge for his worth, right? These are meaningless, entirely worthless games - why is he still being relegated to garbage time squad duty? It's not even about his skill level/ability at this point; if KBD is the better player, so be it, but cut your fucking losses or at least admit that you have them in the first place. Then you can use the space left productively.

I used to be high on Samanic, to a certain extent I still am. But just like Lonnie, I've become progressively soured on them due to a clear, unavoidable aspect of mismanagement in regards to their development. The constant What If's. It's bullshit. Let him put up or shut up... But just let him, for fucks sake.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

If they cut Luka Sandwich, I’m going to be annoyed. I’ve been a big critic, but it’s too early to just dump him now. I’d rather see Luka get some real minutes than Bryn trotted out every game.

They will not cut Luka. It will be unwise to do so. Luka will be good this year and better next year.

[4lifecowboy]

There's no age or tenure cap to play in the SL (guys likes Beasley and Ayres have done so), and as far as I know there's no other possible cap. My guess is the sides just didn't want to do it.

I believe the cap doesn't have to do with age or tenure, but rather how many years the player has participated in the summer league.

[Chinook]

I believe the cap doesn't have to do with age or tenure, but rather how many years the player has participated in the summer league.

I don't think there's a cap at all. Certainly Samanic didn't reach it. The Spurs have had d-leaguers who've gone for a many years. Even Anderson played in three SLs.

[SAGirl]

I believe the cap doesn't have to do with age or tenure, but rather how many years the player has participated in the summer league.
Nah, that's not a thing either. Hate to bring it up, but Anderson was on it 3 times, and most players in the league go there twice, while the guys that are trying to make a team, may show up multiple seasons.

However, participation the first two seasons in the league (rookies and sophomores) is the team's prerogative, whereas after the third season it's voluntary on the player and the team can't compel a player to participate.

Samanic only participated his rookie season, since the summer before his second year in the league (when he would have been featured) the COVID pandemic caused the NBA to cancel summer league unfortunately. Participation prior to his third season was voluntary.

[raybies]

Nah, that's not a thing either. Hate to bring it up, but Anderson was on it 3 times, and most players in the league go there twice, while the guys that are trying to make a team, may show up multiple seasons.

However, participation the first two seasons in the league (rookies and sophomores) is the team's prerogative, whereas after the third season it's voluntary on the player and the team can't compel a player to participate.

Samanic only participated his rookie season, since the summer before his second year in the league (when he would have been featured) the COVID pandemic caused the NBA to cancel summer league unfortunately. Participation prior to his third season was voluntary.

With how many success stories, and how much it has helped aid in development, and how helpful it's been to the eyes of the teams decision makers, I can't help but think it greatly lowered his value to them... I just don't know how he skips that. Like to know more tbh...

[tbdog]

I think the rule is 2 NBA seasons. After that, the player must agree.

[raybies]

I think the rule is 2 NBA seasons. After that, the player must agree.
considering where he has been in the rotation, I find it hard to believe that he doesn't just know that this was the play... I fear he is very misguided in some way, form, or fashion. But the team should've known this though. He had attitude problems in Europe as well.

For me his body movement shows a very disgruntled player, and watching how he plays, it's like him saying, "I'm so much better then where I'm at."

I go back and forth with the whole "Stubborn Pop" dynamic. He's the GOAT coach and he's literally seen it all, so my inclination is to trust him to be what the situation calls for. We will never know what he sees. Pop is very mysterious and enigmatic with his thought process. And although very methodical, it typically ends up the way we think. So in that regard his patience is pretty legendary.

[SAGirl]

Two good things going for Samanic are that even though it happened at the end of games, he played in both and looked competent. Meanwhile KBD only played in the first game and Thad and Aminu in the second.

There is probably a sense to the puzzle but it is tough to read and I have changed my mind multiple times. However, Luka has played well enough to at least warrant an extended look. I am also not in love with Vassell playing as a 4. He lacks the physicality for it, even though he is a good player deserving of minutes.

Also, aside from Luka not getting rotation minutes so far, I think the team has more young players than it can realistically develop all at the same time. Even if they don't want to be deliberate about a hierarchy, they will still establish it with their minutes distribution.

And this brings me to a point about lottery talents. Now that the team is drafting in the lottery, the old ways to develop players don't work as efficiently. Pop used to send youngins to the Gleague for a year or two, while the team played veterans, and called the rooks up for injuries or rest games. Well now the team isn't as talented as all that. Even the best of the group aren't stars and don't have that ceiling (maybe Murray, but it would be context based, and my thoughts about it would derail this post). Meanwhile Primo may be the most offensively talented guy the team has drafted in the past 6-7 years.

Some have said Primo will cause some guys to get traded. The truth is that if he really is talented enough, then it's time to take a hard look at the entire guard rotation and find him minutes somewhere.

On a separate note, all the opportunities Lonnie is getting are because he's in a contract year, and while decisions on other guys can be postponed, Lonnie's extension deadline is soon. Even if they don't reach an agreement and leave the decision on his contract for next summer, keeping him past this season only makes sense if he can play a well defined and recurring role for them.

[SAGirl]

With how many success stories, and how much it has helped aid in development, and how helpful it's been to the eyes of the teams decision makers, I can't help but think it greatly lowered his value to them... I just don't know how he skips that. Like to know more tbh...
I am starting to think that if there is a fallout with Luka it has to be personality based.

He's talented enough to have played more last season, at a time the team was absolutely starved for bigs, and that puzzled me to no end. Then he didn't participate in summer league. Then the team then went out and signed a ton of bigs: McD to a starting role, Jock and Collins for a center role (perhaps they are looking at alternatives to move on from Jakob eventually), and specifically requested Thad and Aminu from Chicago. Now I don't think they had better offers for Derozan, but they also have been considering Derozan trades for a couple of seasons before this summer and some of the rumors involved Aaron Gordon from the Magic. That trade was predicated on Derozan agreeing to a contract extension which the Magic and he backed out, but the Spurs were clearly asking for big forwards in these trades. So I think them ending with 2 bigs in the Derozan trade is not a coincidence.

I have had the feeling that Luka is not in good footing for a long while as everyone who has read my posts know, but I can't deny that it's puzzling. I still can't understand it, but obviously we don't have the full picture specially with his attitude.

[Chinook]

There's no cap at all or any mandate to participate. What you guys are thinking of are d-league send-downs, and I think it's three years now rather than two. You have to be invited to play in the SL, and due to the nature of the league, teams are discouraged from inviting guys who have a guaranteed spot and role. The Spurs likely did ask Sam if he wanted an invite and he declined. Both sides save face that way.

[SAGirl]

There's no cap at all or any mandate to participate. What you guys are thinking of are d-league send-downs, and I think it's three years now rather than two. You have to be invited to play in the SL, and due to the nature of the league, teams are discouraged from inviting guys who have a guaranteed spot and role. The Spurs likely did ask Sam if he wanted an invite and he declined. Both sides save face that way.
Thanks for clarifying that. I have found some conflicting information about it but nothing that is authoritative and it doesn't matter. He was under contract and felt safe enough.

We can't say that he had a guaranteed spot and role the way the season ended for him, but he must have felt safe because he was under contract. The Spurs signing KBD is them giving him both the motivation and urgency to compete harder.

[Drom John]

CBA Summer League:


Section 4. Summer Leagues.
(a) No NBA Team may simultaneously enroll more than four (4)
Veterans in any summer basketball league during an off-season. For
Article XXIII 367
purposes of this Section 4(a), the following players are not considered
Veterans:
(1) a player who has never signed a Player Contract or
whose first Player Contract begins with the Season
immediately following the off-season in which such
summer league is to be conducted;
(2) a player not under contract to an NBA Team at the
time he enrolls in such summer league;
(3) a player under contract to an NBA Team but who
missed twenty-five (25) or more of the Team’s
games during the Regular Season immediately
preceding such off-season due to injury or illness;
and
(4) a player who played for a team in the NBA
Development League or any other U.S.-based
professional league during all, or any portion, of the
Regular Season immediately preceding such off-
sea

Exhibit E E-1
EXHIBIT E
NOTICE TO VETERAN PLAYERS CONCERNING
SUMMER LEAGUES
1. Under the Uniform Player Contract and the Collective Bargaining
Agreement between the NBA and the Players Association, the
Team cannot require players to participate in any summer league.
2. The failure of a player to participate in a summer league will not,
by itself, prejudice or disadvantage such player in his Team
standing or relationship.
3. The Team reserves the right to determine how many and which
players it may enroll in any summer league.
We would appreciate your signing in the space provided below to
acknowledge that you have freely chosen to participate in summer league
play on a voluntary basis during the summer of ____.
Agreed to and Accepted:
(Name of Player)

[raybies]

Two good things going for Samanic are that even though it happened at the end of games, he played in both and looked competent. Meanwhile KBD only played in the first game and Thad and Aminu in the second.

There is probably a sense to the puzzle but it is tough to read and I have changed my mind multiple times. However, Luka has played well enough to at least warrant an extended look. I am also not in love with Vassell playing as a 4. He lacks the physicality for it, even though he is a good player deserving of minutes.

Also, aside from Luka not getting rotation minutes so far, I think the team has more young players than it can realistically develop all at the same time. Even if they don't want to be deliberate about a hierarchy, they will still establish it with their minutes distribution.

And this brings me to a point about lottery talents. Now that the team is drafting in the lottery, the old ways to develop players don't work as efficiently. Pop used to send youngins to the Gleague for a year or two, while the team played veterans, and called the rooks up for injuries or rest games. Well now the team isn't as talented as all that. Even the best of the group aren't stars and don't have that ceiling (maybe Murray, but it would be context based, and my thoughts about it would derail this post). Meanwhile Primo may be the most offensively talented guy the team has drafted in the past 6-7 years.

Some have said Primo will cause some guys to get traded. The truth is that if he really is talented enough, then it's time to take a hard look at the entire guard rotation and find him minutes somewhere.

On a separate note, all the opportunities Lonnie is getting are because he's in a contract year, and while decisions on other guys can be postponed, Lonnie's extension deadline is soon. Even if they don't reach an agreement and leave the decision on his contract for next summer, keeping him past this season only makes sense if he can play a well defined and recurring role for them.

I really enjoy your posts... actual Spurstalk tbh...

But sentiment aside... to your first point I agree 100. He shows just enough to make you think twice about pulling the plug. He is extremely talented and skilled for his size. And later in your post you alluded to what I believe is the core issue and it's his attitude. I don't know if or how that will ever change.. I mean if Phil Jackson was coaching the team it wouldn't be an issue, but holistically I really haven't had an issue about how we pick our guys... As a small market team we found a niche and a brand that has worked so of course you try to continue the consistency.

As far as Vas at the four and on to your fourth paragraph, I agree once again. I think our youth isn't properly valued. In my eyes we have one of the best young cores in the league. Obviously if you have a Ja Morant player then everybody gets their due, but because no one has separated themselves from the pack it just looks like bodies. Our youth is very talented and I think this year may open a lot of eyes. It's no wonder they feel disrespected. 28 wins for a roster like this and a coach like Pop is an easy bet to far over exceed. But like you said, and as I have positioned, we may need to cash some pieces in so to speak. Which is why early on seeing what everyone can do and what you are trying to do as a team should let you know who stays and who goes. If you look at the roster we have quite a few lottery guys now and typically and in times past, teams with a lot of lottery talent tend to do good. It's not a rule of thumb but more so a good indicator. Our lotto guys aren't scrubs either, ya know.

But with DW with a mid tier contract and DJ, how can you just keep handing out these contracts. Lonnie hasn't shown anything really. DW and DJ at least showed enough to warrant these contracts, with DJ's 2nd Team All D accolade and DW's performance against Denver when he went unconscious and may have been the best player on the floor, at least for long stretches. Really wish that guy could find his way back...

[itzsoweezee]

That makes two of us. Man, it's annoying to constantly have to wonder what if...?, the same way it was constantly annoying to wonder whether Dejounte and White could play together. Pop is just too CIA for his own damn good sometimes.

If he sucks, he sucks; why don't you play him 20-30m a couple nights and let him show you out on the court? Spurs staff can't possibly think that just his effort on practice (we talkin' 'bout practice...) and garbage time is enough of a gauge for his worth, right? These are meaningless, entirely worthless games - why is he still being relegated to garbage time squad duty? It's not even about his skill level/ability at this point; if KBD is the better player, so be it, but cut your fucking losses or at least admit that you have them in the first place. Then you can use the space left productively.

I used to be high on Samanic, to a certain extent I still am. But just like Lonnie, I've become progressively soured on them due to a clear, unavoidable aspect of mismanagement in regards to their development. The constant What If's. It's bullshit. Let him put up or shut up... But just let him, for fucks sake.

It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?

Spurs barely practice as it is, these young guys need meaningful game minutes. I thought with Derozan, Aldridge, Gay, and Mills finally gone that pop would be forced to do the right thing. Instead, here we are watching Aminu and Young getting minutes instead. It’s maddening.

[JeffDuncan]

It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?
...


The preseason games this year are not meaningless. The Spurs have too many players under contract. Two of them have to be gone by the 18th. That's precious little time to make the final roster decisions.

For two guys in particular, whoever they are, these preseason games could be the most important games of their professional careers.

[Sugus]

It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?

Spurs barely practice as it is, these young guys need meaningful game minutes. I thought with Derozan, Aldridge, Gay, and Mills finally gone that pop would be forced to do the right thing. Instead, here we are watching Aminu and Young getting minutes instead. It’s maddening.

It was so fucking predictable that he wouldn't play meaningful minutes the next game, either :lmao I'm not expecting it at any point this Preseason, and maybe even into the season whatsoever.

Kind of have already peace with the fact that some players on the Spurs simply won't get a fair chance, and might have already been "ruined" or soured by previous developmental malpractices by the coaching team (cough Pop cough). Luka's in that boat for sure. It's nice to see Lonnie get additional exposure in these games, but you gotta wonder whether it's too late already for him...

[Dejounte]

Yes, it is wrong. It's not something you can "disagree about", because the stat is what it is. Does that mean it's useful? No. But it's not something that scales with wins and can't be explained away by saying that guys who are disappointing in that stat are only such because of being on a bad team. Simply looking at the WS/48 of the other players on the same team dispels that. And I know you know that, since you took a bunch of time to try to vet the stat over a random sequence of posts. You're just on a lame shtick right now.

I'm usually pretty clear over when something is my opinion rather than a fact, and people who aren't you don't really seem to have a problem differentiating. Just like how you thought my speculation about Simmons was the same thing as me pretending I had a source and was reporting a trade or whatever. You're not stupid. You're ornery to the point that it's stale, but you're not stupid. You have the basic reasoning skills to know when a statement is fact or assertion. You're choosing to pretend to have reading comprehension issues because you don't like that I have a different opinion than you. It's dumb, but it's intentional on your part. You're not stupid, but you're trying to use stupid tactics because you're tired of trying to debate legitimately and don't know how to just ignore posts.

Once again, the stat does scale with wins and just because you say it doesn’t, doesn’t make it factual. It’s almost like you think what you write comes is true just because you say it is. I never claimed that the stat is useless, and it’s extremely disingenuous to assume that you’re using the stat correctly by mentioning other players have lower WS/48. Like no fucking shit, win shares are affected by a number of factors including if the substitute player plays less than the starter. It’s heavily weighted by playing time and to simply look at WS/48 of other players on the team without taking into context their role, minutes is clueless as fuck.

Stop pretending to be a psychologist when you can’t actually do any introspection on yourself and read your own fucking posts and how you come off as. Anything you disagree with, you call it “weird”. And when you’re wrong, you forget how wrong you are in months’ time, such as the time you whined like a fucking baby and did all types of conspiracy work on the Spurs losing money because the Spurs traded for Marquese. Double down. Triple down. Quadruple down all you like.

[KingKev]

It makes no sense. What are you losing by playing these guys in meaningless preseason games?

Spurs barely practice as it is, these young guys need meaningful game minutes. I thought with Derozan, Aldridge, Gay, and Mills finally gone that pop would be forced to do the right thing. Instead, here we are watching Aminu and Young getting minutes instead. It’s maddening.

I’m okay with them giving Aminu minutes. He is a likely candidate to be waived but if there is a chance he can reclaim himself as a 3 and D guy he could be a valuable trade chip so he needs some run in real games to assess.

[Chinook]

Once again, the stat does scale with wins and just because you say it doesn’t, doesn’t make it factual. It’s almost like you think what you write comes is true just because you say it is. I never claimed that the stat is useless, and it’s extremely disingenuous to assume that you’re using the stat correctly by mentioning other players have lower WS/48. Like no fucking shit, win shares are affected by a number of factors including if the substitute player plays less than the starter. It’s heavily weighted by playing time and to simply look at WS/48 of other players on the team without taking into context their role, minutes is clueless as fuck.

Stop pretending to be a psychologist when you can’t actually do any introspection on yourself and read your own fucking posts and how you come off as. Anything you disagree with, you call it “weird”. And when you’re wrong, you forget how wrong you are in months’ time, such as the time you whined like a fucking baby and did all types of conspiracy work on the Spurs losing money because the Spurs traded for Marquese. Double down. Triple down. Quadruple down all you like.

Dude, it doesn't scale with wins. Look at the formula (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html). I know you know how to do that because you did it with USG%. What is true is that a team with a lot of win-shares will win a lot of games, but that's because a team with guys performing well wins, not because they are taking the wins and dividing them up. If you read the formula page, you'll see there was a version of the stat that did actually scale with wins, exactly, but it's not the one that BBRef uses. Win-shares "approximate" wins in the same vein that BPM "approximates RAPM". It's a goal for the stat to be somewhat close, but the stat doesn't contain any data about how many games the team won and thus it can't be said that better teams make a player have a better WS/48. It's actually the opposite, where the better a team is, the harder it is for a player to make a big enough contribution to have a high win-share total relative to his teammates. The numerator is based on performance relative to the league, not the team, and the denominator is based most on scaling for era (using the stats for league average score and league pace), with an adjustment for team pace. But that's it. That's the only time that a team's performance actually affects the stat. So no, your opinion that the stat scales with wins is objectively false.

So saying, "You're missing context" without showing that context changes the results is a meaningless, pseudointellectual argument. In the examples you gave, those players, even on bad teams, did not have high relative WS/48 compared to their teammates. They weren't good players on bad teams. They were bad players on bad teams -- their performances contributed to their teams being bad. Of course, Murray had two years on a playoff team, so the "good player on bad team" line obviously didn't work with him. The Spurs weren't a bad team to explain his low results. What also doesn't help is that believing WS/48 are proportional to wins should suggest that you can reliably translate them from one team to another, so Simmons "objective" by this logic contributed twice as much to wins as Murray did. Does that mean Murray won't see one of those relatively uncommon explosions? No. But it doesn't erase the idea that Simmons has been a better player than Murray.

It doesn't take a psychologist to see you've tried so hard to be positive that you've become the arguably most negative person on this forum. It's not just the shitty gate-keeping with how posters should support the Spurs. You want so badly to believe in the young guys that you're actively hating on someone like Young because you want to justify him being off the team to give the young guys minutes. You're obsessively looking to paint any acknowledgment of how well DeRozan played last year as a desire to keep him because you want to believe the young guys are an improvement over him. You should just calm down, man. I watch every Spurs game despite not agreeing with Pop on things he does. I criticize those things on here because that is a major part of fan engagement. I don't like something that they do, and I want to see them do it better, and I watch the games and discussing random scenarios in that lens. I'm pretty flexible as a fan that way. But with how much just the past couple of years of decline have affected your posting demeanor, I can't imagine how much of a toll a real rebuild with take on you.

[TD 21]

just because you say it doesn’t, doesn’t make it factual. It’s almost like you think what you write comes is true just because you say it is.

Stop pretending to be a psychologist when you can’t actually do any introspection on yourself and read your own fucking posts and how you come off as. Anything you disagree with, you call it “weird”. And when you’re wrong, you forget how wrong you are in months’ time, such as the time you whined like a fucking baby and did all types of conspiracy work on the Spurs losing money because the Spurs traded for Marquese.

:lmao

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Spurs are definitely rounding into what appears to be a 25 win team at best here during the preseason. Biggest problem with this team will be getting points. Problem two is not much length to stop other teams from just cramming the ball into the basket. Also, without a single name player, and so much youth, getting calls could be tough.

[KingKev]

Spurs are definitely rounding into what appears to be a 25 win team at best here during the preseason. Biggest problem with this team will be getting points. Problem two is not much length to stop other teams from just cramming the ball into the basket. Also, without a single name player, and so much youth, getting calls could be tough.

Yeah at least they are content with being lottery bound. It is needed. I hope they showcase Thad eary and drum up a market for him, otherwise I suspect we don’t make a single trade.

[timvp]

I agree with your opinion on the Samanic situation and I am thankful you were candid about it.

He's definitely on thin ice, enough for the team to offer a contract to KBD. Luka may play a lot more minutes in the next few preseason games but it should be interpreted as an opportunity for him to convince the Spurs that he's worth continuing to invest in, as you say not just for this season but for $4.5 million for the next one. The Spurs may be ready to cut their loses with him and not extend him and if he's not extended why continue to spend resources developing him?

If he doesn't play much more than he did in the first game, I would think that the Spurs have seen enough of him already to make up their minds. I think KBD is not some token signing. Beyond the fact KBD received guaranteed money for a training camp invite, here's the problem for Luka: he's not cracking this rotation unless there are injuries and I think as the Spurs get younger and younger, and draft lottery talents, he will be faced with more and better competition from other prospects that are also trying to break in the league. His competition for minutes is now coming in from Vassell, a better defender than him (and probably a better prospect as well) and Josh Primo, a lottery pick who may soon prove to be too good for the Gleague. Therefore Luka is reduced to injury insurance and a practice body. It's a good problem to have, that the Spurs have better prospects.

The Spurs are a business and if they can't envision Luka as a rotation player going forward, they can get similar production from a KBD type for less and that difference would be $ significant next season. And when you think of next season, one has to think that there are already prospects on their radar. Samanic is going to continue to get pushed. He'd have to show that he has more upside than just roster depth.

I think it's to be expected that as the Spurs get younger and continue to add more prospects, not all are going to make it. They will keep the best and afford enough opportunity to everyone, but some are probably not going to find their footing in the league until they are older, have toiled in other teams, or quite simply they wash out.

I am no longer critical about the pick because it's part of the process that not everyone will pan out and the Spurs still do better drafting than most.

The final aspect with Luka is something that we don't know. The coaching staff sees him all the time, behind the closed doors of the gym. If he's not a guy that's going to be happy just being a deep bench player waving towels and they could see that he's not going to crack the rotation he may not be a fit for the team moving forward. There are things like him not wanting to participate in summer league when he could have benefited from it and built up confidence and chemistry that concerned me as well.

I think I have changed my mind and now believe that he's unlikely to make it.

Best post of the preseason, tbh. Well done, SAGirl.

Yeah, I'm somewhat frustrated Samanic was never really given a chance to show what he could do. But, then again, if he was showing next to nothing in practice and not advancing at all behind the scenes, there was no longer a reason to keep him.

What further hurt him is that players like Keldon and Vassell are now able to play PF in today's league. Samanic is skilled compared to most traditional bigs but he's not that skilled compared to wings who can now moonlight as bigs.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

I don't see how Luka survives honestly.

:tu


They will not cut Luka.

:td