Grades: Spurs vs. Heat - Oct. 8, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-miami-heat-preseason-game-3/

Yikes, tbh.

[CGD]

Sooner or later, some trimming of the heard is going to be needed.

Won’t be able to justify starting Lonnie over Vassel at this rate, and the Murray/White starting together thing just doesn’t seem to work.

[CGD]

Best starting unit at this point is probably White-Vassell-Keldon-McD-Yak

[SAGirl]

Not enough is being said about the roster camp battles. I am not liking Drew to be the second big. He lacks in rim protection. Jakob was missed tonight and Drew starting was the reason. I hadn’t considered him in danger because he’s a notoriously competitive guy, but Jock is probably a better rim protector and that’s the most important skill centers provide, in addition to defensive rebounding.

I missed some of Lukas minutes due to a bad stream but he lacks physicality in the paint, specially blocking out other bigs from OBoards. Defense is not just one on one and lateral moves. I don’t think it’s all decided, and it’s a good sign he’s getting minutes, but I am not sure he’s helped his case.

KBD seemed like he has a hamstring injury? That’s unfortunate if true.

Edit: To add that aside from the roster battles, Lonnies extension is pending. He was pretty bad in this game, and hasn’t been making a great case for it.

[John B]

I’m still deciding if I should renew my league pass :oops

I’d just trade the whole SL for Simmons. Come on :pctoss

[GAustex]

Is it DeMarre Young or Thad Carroll?

[The Truth #6]

Admittedly feeling pessimistic, but I’m not sold on any of our players right now as anyone to build around, nor whatever approach the team has taken. Not rebuilding but striving to be a 34-win team? Pop has some work to do. We will lose a lot of games this year.

[PhantomDashCam]

Just got done watching the replay. Random thoughts:

Forbes’ is a great shooter and I don’t have an issue if he clocks in 20+ mins a game (especially if Lonnie continues this level of play).
However, he can’t be played down the closing stretch of any game. He can’t playmake, rebound, defend at a competent level. Negates all advantages he brings on the other end.

Samanic didn’t have a great start to the game but I’m still rooting for him to be a part of the rotation. I don’t like playing him at the 5 in fact that leads me to another issue…

Do we really need to play everyone out of position with these rotations?

As of now - DJ, DW, KJ, McDermott, Poeltl as your starters. Vassell, Samanic as key reserves. Then by game minutes allocated between
Lonnie and Bryn, Jock and Drew.

Want Primo to get all the reps he can handle in the G league atm playing the 1 and 2. Best for the team long term.

[ZeusWillJudge]

LOL. Who is this Max Strus guy that put up 28 pts against the Spurs tonight? It seems like I remember someone saying that the Spurs should have a contract waiting for him if he goes undrafted. But who? Who said that?

Heh... must have been someone with god-like abilities. Unlike Spurs' management.

[siraulo23]

Spurs need at least three of their young guns to play well/excel for them to have 0.500 season

Not one of White/Walker/Murray/Johnson put together a complete game so far in the preseason, it's gonna have to change or they'll be losing a lot this year

[tbdog]

I keep saying, Murray/White backcourt has not work. Time to bench one or trade one.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

For everyone rooting for the tank it looks like ya’ll got your wish.

[RC_Drunkford]

I feel bad for anybody watching these games. I'd be surprised if they manage to win more than 20 games

[dbestpro]

I really think Poetl should be traded if possible for draft assets. This team is going nowhere and it appears you have 2 serviceable centers to run the treadmill.

[Spurs Brazil]

Spurs can't offer Walker an extension. It'd be a big mistake. He keep making the same mistakes.

[tbdog]

For everyone rooting for the tank it looks like ya’ll got your wish.

I thought trading away DDR was addition by subtraction?

[CGD]

I thought trading away DDR was addition by subtraction?

It’s not like spurs were world beaters with him… couldn’t even get .500 ball.

[CGD]

Spurs can't offer Walker an extension. It'd be a big mistake. He keep making the same mistakes.

Agree. And I’m hoping reason we haven’t heard anything about him and Luka is that the Spurs see writing on wall. Or at least they’ll let the market dictate his price next year

[couchman]

This was an abysmal performance against a bunch of b team scrubs. Gotta think we’re going to lose a lot of games this year. I’m most concerned that D White can’t seem to put the ball in the basket. He has to shoot well for the expected starting lineup to work

[Dex]

For everyone rooting for the tank it looks like ya’ll got your wish.

Yep, the boo birds will still come out complaining all season about how our young players (who everyone wanted to play) are so inept and how Pop is screwing up every rotation and Forbes exists as a human being (fvck!).

Like...this is what losing looks like, and you don't get a top draft pick without a lot of losing.

Not saying I've given up on this crew yet...it's still preseason with a lot to be determined. But yeah, I won't at all be surprised if we finish in the bottom 10, either.

TBH, my biggest concerns right now are the lackluster play from White, Walker, and to a lesser extent Samanic. The former two we should have higher expectations for, whereas I've pretty much already sold my stock on the latter. Either way, we aren't going to win a lot of games if those three continue playing like they have in the preseason, and the competition is only going to get harder.

[raybies]

Just bad combinations imo...

One thing that I do like is that in these two losses they have taken a hit and made a comeback so to speak. They have a lot of heart and I think that was something that was sorely missing the last few years.They really just need someone who can stop the bleeding at times. Someone who can create their own shot, and make it though... I don't think this team is as far off as most suggest or imply, they just really need someone who can take the pressure off whenever needed. I think that guy is Josh if he's ready. He has the potential to be that. But at the same time we have too much depth at youth so to speak and it would be nice to package some for ready contributors. You just don't do that unless you know what you have. Why is why I think, I'd like to see Josh get a starting two spot with Murray, KJ, McD, and Poetl or Landale. That's what I said since the beginning. This lineup should theoretically have all the ingredients for success supposing the bread has rested long enough. :)

[timtonymanu]

Yep, the boo birds will still come out complaining all season about how our young players (who everyone wanted to play) are so inept and how Pop is screwing up every rotation and Forbes exists as a human being (fvck!).

Like...this is what losing looks like, and you don't get a top draft pick without a lot of losing.

Not saying I've given up on this crew yet...it's still preseason with a lot to be determined. But yeah, I won't at all be surprised if we finish in the bottom 10, either.

TBH, my biggest concerns right now are the lackluster play from White, Walker, and to a lesser extent Samanic. The former two we should have higher expectations for, whereas I've pretty much already sold my stock on the latter. Either way, we aren't going to win a lot of games if those three continue playing like they have in the preseason, and the competition is only going to get harder.

I’ve definitely rooted for the tank so no complaints from me here. I have acknowledged before that without Demar, they would be a lot worse, but him still being here wasn’t a good thing either. We’re really getting to see what guys have star potential and so far, yeah it’s ugly. No one looks like they can have star potential. It’s why Forbes went from the 9th man on a championship team to the 50 Mills role on the Spurs. It has potential to be really ugly but I also like having no expectations this year. I hope they can be a surprise for your sake though lol

[Dex]

I’ve definitely rooted for the tank so no complaints from me here. I have acknowledged before that without Demar, they would be a lot worse, but him still being here wasn’t a good thing either. We’re really getting to see what guys have star potential and so far, yeah it’s ugly. No one looks like they can have star potential. It’s why Forbes went from the 9th man on a championship team to the 50 Mills role on the Spurs. It has potential to be really ugly but I also like having no expectations this year. I hope they can be a surprise for your sake though lol

I'm with you, ttm. And I've never counted you as one of the boo birds, you always have reasonable takes even if it's not what everyone wants to hear.

I said it another thread...this team could win 15 games or it could win 50, and I'm not going to get too up or down about it either way. It will be an interesting season.

[SAGirl]

Spurs declined offers for a single protected first draft pick for each of one of White and Murray. That may not be a great offer but benching them will look worse if you want to swing a trade. Now the Spurs will live and die with White and Murray, best Pop can do is stagger them.

[John B]

I hate to blame Pop, but his over reliance on the vets is now biting his ass. I know it’s just 3 games of the Pre-Season, but our guys just look so inexperienced out there. And any signs of mistakes, he pulls them out. I mean 15 minutes for Luka and 25 mins for Bryn? If we’re going to lose, I rather we lose with Primo, Luka, Lonnie playing heavy minutes. I know Lonnie played heavy minutes last night, but hopefully he doesn’t get benched next game. Let them grow from their mistakes

[duncan2k5]

Yep, the boo birds will still come out complaining all season about how our young players (who everyone wanted to play) are so inept and how Pop is screwing up every rotation and Forbes exists as a human being (fvck!).

Like...this is what losing looks like, and you don't get a top draft pick without a lot of losing.

Not saying I've given up on this crew yet...it's still preseason with a lot to be determined. But yeah, I won't at all be surprised if we finish in the bottom 10, either.

TBH, my biggest concerns right now are the lackluster play from White, Walker, and to a lesser extent Samanic. The former two we should have higher expectations for, whereas I've pretty much already sold my stock on the latter. Either way, we aren't going to win a lot of games if those three continue playing like they have in the preseason, and the competition is only going to get harder.

We know what losing looks like .. we saw it the past 2 years with DeRozan... Y'all act like we were a playoff team

[Dex]

We know what losing looks like .. we saw it the past 2 years with DeRozan... Y'all act like we were a playoff team

Ah, here is one of the boo birds.

You think losing 39 games sucks? Wait until we are losing 60.

People have been calling for a hard tank since like 2010, but I don't think those same people have the stomach for it.

[emanueldavidginobili]

13 Heat players out and we lost and was down by 20 at one point. The O/U is 28.5 I honestly thought that was insane and they would get the over but man I don't know after seeing this preseason. It just seems like every other team just has better AGGRESSIVE players. Spurs draft a certain type of humans when they draft. We have two dogs on this team DJ and Keldon. Every other team is filled with them, this team is filled with SOFT players. There is no one hungry on this team besides the two I named. This team is soft as baby shit.

[KobesAchilles]

Ah, here is one of the boo birds.

You think losing 39 games sucks? Wait until we are losing 60.

People have been calling for a hard tank since like 2010, but I don't think those same people have the stomach for it.
Clearly you’ve never eaten my wife’s cooking. My stomach is iron. Bring on the tank.

That being said, something I noticed and pointed out was the Murray and Walker can’t get to the line. And that’s an issue. It’s why I was clamoring for Pop to be all over the refs ass everyday about KJ bc he’s the only one that looks like can get to the line 6-8 times a game. That’s where all stars separate themselves. Not that DDR was a superstar but him and White were the only two on the team that could get to the line on a consistent basis. And White’s cap seems to be about 4 a game.

There’s literally no reason for Murray and Lonnie to be allergic to the foul line like they are. 2 a game last year? 1 for Lonnie? It’s a problem

[dbestpro]

Ah, here is one of the boo birds.

You think losing 39 games sucks? Wait until we are losing 60.

People have been calling for a hard tank since like 2010, but I don't think those same people have the stomach for it.

Why is losing such an acceptable part of your life?

[tmtcsc]

This team is in dire need of talent and leadership. Lonnie & Luka need to be moved, Primo needs to stay out of the G League. No player should be free from trade consideration. This is like tearing down a house and rebuilding from scratch. Kawhi was the flood damage. All options are on the table.

Demar was the most talented offensive player we had but had little to no impact as a leader. This will likely be a very painful season in terms of wins and losses but it needs to happen. Keep shuffling these role players and wannabe's out of here until real talent is identified, drafted or picked up via free agency. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what would draw any significant FA here except the ability to pay them more.

[wildbill2u]

I suspect there will be lots of games where the youth and new lineups will disappoint us. Some of these guys barely know each other and others should still be in college or g-league learning the game. That being said, I'm all for letting them play even if we lose a few winnable games. I have to keep myself from over-rating some of our guys (Luka, Walker) based on some perceived talent upside. I want them to succeed in putting those skill sets together consistently---but maybe it just is not in their DNA.

Look at Keldon. Theoretically he isn't a prototype PF or SF, but he has the "want to" to overcome and play above his physical liabilities at those positions. Drew has it; I suspect Jock has it. White shows flashes of it. The others not so much. Who among them is going to step up and risk a tech to protect a teammate or give some payback? I want players that hate to lose rather than being afraid to lose.

[Leetonidas]

I'm going to hold off on bitching too much until the actual season begins because, I get it, but it's just preseason.

Besides, didn't we want our team to be ass? :lol how else are we going to get top picks. If you base the season off the last two games we may have a bottom 3 record this season

[LeBowen]

Too many similar players on the roster.

Both role and ability wise.

I'm all in for the tank and figuring out who'll be worth keeping for the years to come, but Pop is probably going to ruin everything with his rotations and Bryn playing 30mpg.

My tier list right now:

Untradeable: Keldon, Primo
Tradeable only if we can fleece someone: DJ
Tradeable for a good return: White, Poeltl, Vassell, McDermott
Should get traded: Lonnie, Samanic, Thad, Forbes
Deadwood: Aminu and all the third stringers


I was Lonnie's biggest fan for three years, but he just can't put it together. He's out of control and lost most of the time.
Samanic looks like he's skilled, has a decent shot, but he's also lost most of the time and it's been 2 years now.


Hopefully playoff teams get desperate at the deadline and we can get an overpay for Derrick, Thad, McDermott.
But PATFO will either get fleeced or gift players away, as per usual.

[Ozballer]

The upside of it all (with the modest talent we have on this squad) is that :pop::pop:will finally go...cos it is about talent, game plan and putting a roster together, not age...and the coach and the GM have failed in all those assignments.

[BackHome]

Too many similar players on the roster.

Both role and ability wise.

I'm all in for the tank and figuring out who'll be worth keeping for the years to come, but Pop is probably going to ruin everything with his rotations and Bryn playing 30mpg.

My tier list right now:

Untradeable: Keldon, Primo
Tradeable only if we can fleece someone: DJ
Tradeable for a good return: White, Poeltl, Vassell, McDermott
Should get traded: Lonnie, Samanic, Thad, Forbes
Deadwood: Aminu and all the third stringers


I was Lonnie's biggest fan for three years, but he just can't put it together. He's out of control and lost most of the time.
Samanic looks like he's skilled, has a decent shot, but he's also lost most of the time and it's been 2 years now.


Hopefully playoff teams get desperate at the deadline and we can get an overpay for Derrick, Thad, McDermott.
But PATFO will either get fleeced or gift players away, as per usual.

Agreed this team has no rhyme or reason on how it was constructed and I am scarred that Pop is going to ruin Primo like he did with Walker and Luka - I still can’t believe Pop old shit of taking a player out when he is hot or benching a player when they have a good game it has never made sense to me another reason I want his senile ass gone. And he is such a ducking hypocrite he will take out a player like Walker, Murray, or Luka for making a defensive mistake but Forbes gets blown out on every defensive rotation and still get max minutes again makes no fucking sense

As far as tanking hell yeah bring it on I am looking at top 4 picks anything less is another wasted season. I said it again all these kids are scared to make a mistake you won’t see any improvement and you will probably see this team quit on Pop before mid season. This team reminds me of Cowboys Garrett team he loved him some “Yes Boys” instead of getting some Dogs he went with puppies and that’s why they always got spanked

[Dejounte]

For all the bulk added, Samanic flails around a lot and gets pushed around easily. He was decent offensively, albeit hesitated to shoot when he was passed the ball out on the perimeter.

Keldon looks like he’s finding his groove. He’s been unconfident about his newfound moves on offense for one and a half games. Folks were in awe at Herro’s scoring in the first half, but Keldon matched his point total with ease by the 3rd.

Speaking of Herro, dude could not be stopped even with good defense on him. Does anyone seriously think he will average 25 per? This was likely just a hot shooting night.

Murray looks different this year. I think he’s set for a big year.

The team needs a third guy to step up. Vassell looks disappointing as hell and has low offensive awareness, the same issues I had with him before he was drafted. Lonnie looks more assertive this year but his bball IQ just isn’t there. White is steady but I’m not sure can be counted on as a consistent third scorer, but maybe.

I understand why Collins was sought after now. Eubanks is hot garbage on defense. Provides little to no defense inside. Always bites on fakes or forgets his assignment. Don’t know if Collins is any better, but worth a shot.

[widowmaker]

I thought Walker said that “he heard all those haters out there” dude is turning out to be a chump.

[KingKev]

For all the bulk added, Samanic flails around a lot and gets pushed around easily. He was decent offensively, albeit hesitated to shoot when he was passed the ball out on the perimeter.

Keldon looks like he’s finding his groove. He’s been unconfident about his newfound moves on offense for one and a half games. Folks were in awe at Herro’s scoring in the first half, but Keldon matched his point total with ease by the 3rd.

Speaking of Herro, dude could not be stopped even with good defense on him. Does anyone seriously think he will average 25 per? This was likely just a hot shooting night.

Murray looks different this year. I think he’s set for a big year.

The team needs a third guy to step up. Vassell looks disappointing as hell and has low offensive awareness, the same issues I had with him before he was drafted. Lonnie looks more assertive this year but his bball IQ just isn’t there. White is steady but I’m not sure can be counted on as a consistent third scorer, but maybe.

I understand why Collins was sought after now. Eubanks is hot garbage on defense. Provides little to no defense inside. Always bites on fakes or forgets his assignment. Don’t know if Collins is any better, but worth a shot.

To your point on DJ I think this is the year to let him loose. He gets to the basket soo easy when he is aggressive and has become a very shifty finisher with that length. I’m okay with him gambling on defense here and there when he brings it that hard on that side of the ball when so many other guys seem to get a pass from a so called defensive coach.

How do you think he would fair with a rim running big?

[Dejounte]

To your point on DJ I think this is the year to let him loose. He gets to the basket soo easy when he is aggressive and has become a very shifty finisher with that length. I’m okay with him gambling on defense here and there when he brings it that hard on that side of the ball when so many other guys seem to get a pass from a so called defensive coach.

How do you think he would fair with a rim running big?

IMO, his defense looks even better this year. I think we’re seeing him with a rim running big already in Eubanks. The bigger blessing for DJ are our two new shooters: Forbes and McDermott. He’s finding them like no other player on the team right now sans Primo.

[BackHome]

For all the bulk added, Samanic flails around a lot and gets pushed around easily. He was decent offensively, albeit hesitated to shoot when he was passed the ball out on the perimeter.

Keldon looks like he’s finding his groove. He’s been unconfident about his newfound moves on offense for one and a half games. Folks were in awe at Herro’s scoring in the first half, but Keldon matched his point total with ease by the 3rd.

Speaking of Herro, dude could not be stopped even with good defense on him. Does anyone seriously think he will average 25 per? This was likely just a hot shooting night.

Murray looks different this year. I think he’s set for a big year.

The team needs a third guy to step up. Vassell looks disappointing as hell and has low offensive awareness, the same issues I had with him before he was drafted. Lonnie looks more assertive this year but his bball IQ just isn’t there. White is steady but I’m not sure can be counted on as a consistent third scorer, but maybe.

I understand why Collins was sought after now. Eubanks is hot garbage on defense. Provides little to no defense inside. Always bites on fakes or forgets his assignment. Don’t know if Collins is any better, but worth a shot.

You know DJ I know you were absolutely against picking Vassell and listed your reasons a lot of people blew you off me included but I am starting to think you were right about him on the offensive side of the ball.

[Slippy]

Havnt been able to watch any pre season games so far and theres reason for it. Its all about finding out line-ups and who makes the cut. Everyone is pressing . Experimental ball aint fun to watch.

That said Lonnie better start showing something or he going to be Bryns whipping boy. Fuck

[tim_duncan_fan]

Ah, here is one of the boo birds.

You think losing 39 games sucks? Wait until we are losing 60.

People have been calling for a hard tank since like 2010, but I don't think those same people have the stomach for it.

Losing 39 games and not being really competitive at all when the other team isn't incapacitated is the exact same thing as losing 60 games, except you get a much better chance at getting someone who can actually hoop out of the draft when you lose 60.

If we suck ass and lose 70 games, great. Draft an actually talented and athletic player and prepare for next season.

It's the middling and going nowhere that is most frustrating.

[Das Texan]

Im not really going to get upset with losing preseason games when preseason games arent really for victories in the end.

I'd rather see Pop and the Spurs figure out what WONT work when the regular season comes around so they can hopefully avoid those combinations/situations.

[talkspurs]

So ive seen lots of people talking about lonnie not getting his extension but could he be one of the ones that gets cut? He had time to play last year and did not do much. he is not showing much this year. His defense is bad and offense is inconsistent. He also plays at a spot where we have the most players. He has had 3 years to lukas 2 and KBDs1. Luka and KBD are at much more needed players for this team and even in the NBA.

[cd98]

It's okay if the Spurs are losing to the C Heat team. I don't know what the rock bottom is for the Spurs, but it's okay if we lose a lot. The players we have will either get better with more minutes or we will get a good draft position and the chance to get the top level talent.

[KingKev]

So ive seen lots of people talking about lonnie not getting his extension but could he be one of the ones that gets cut? He had time to play last year and did not do much. he is not showing much this year. His defense is bad and offense is inconsistent. He also plays at a spot where we have the most players. He has had 3 years to lukas 2 and KBDs1. Luka and KBD are at much more needed players for this team and even in the NBA.

KBD has been in the league since 2018 fyi. I don’t think Walker is getting cut even if the Spurs
give up on him I suspect they still see he could be a decent sweetener in a bigger trade. Luka, KBD, Aminu, Landale and Eubanks are all on watch.

[offset formation]

We know what losing looks like .. we saw it the past 2 years with DeRozan... Y'all act like we were a playoff team

we are treading water between sucking and sucking really bad. there's no wisdom in treading water.

[Dex]

Why is losing such an acceptable part of your life?

I think my track record shows that I have never fully supported losing or tanking. I watch the Spurs for entertainment, and there is nothing entertaining about losing all the time.

I understand that it's necessary for getting a high draft pick, but I'd personally prefer the team actually stay competitive even if that means we aren't going to get our next Tim Duncan.

The point I am making here is that all of the people around here who have been asking for a tank will probably be the same people complaining about the Spurs losing games. Like Ed said, sometimes you get what you ask for.

[pad300]

KBD has been in the league since 2018 fyi. I don’t think Walker is getting cut even if the Spurs
give up on him I suspect they still see he could be a decent sweetener in a bigger trade. Luka, KBD, Aminu, Landale and Eubanks are all on watch.

If this logic says Walker isn't getting cut, why doesn't the same preclude (even more strongly) Luka being cut?

[KingKev]

If this logic says Walker isn't getting cut, why doesn't the same preclude (even more strongly) Luka being cut?

Because Luka has shown literally NOTHING. Walker has atleast shown some ability to score, has freakish athleticism and a pretty good stroke from deep.

[rankingtear]

Last cut besides Aminu , Luka or KBD ? Luka came into camp out of shape and KBD is injured.

[KingKev]

Last cut besides Aminu , Luka or KBD ? Luka came into camp out of shape and KBD is injured.

Luka looks great physically? Are talking his conditioning?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Yep, the boo birds will still come out complaining all season about how our young players (who everyone wanted to play) are so inept and how Pop is screwing up every rotation and Forbes exists as a human being (fvck!).

Like...this is what losing looks like, and you don't get a top draft pick without a lot of losing.

Not saying I've given up on this crew yet...it's still preseason with a lot to be determined. But yeah, I won't at all be surprised if we finish in the bottom 10, either.

TBH, my biggest concerns right now are the lackluster play from White, Walker, and to a lesser extent Samanic. The former two we should have higher expectations for, whereas I've pretty much already sold my stock on the latter. Either way, we aren't going to win a lot of games if those three continue playing like they have in the preseason, and the competition is only going to get harder.

I think White will play himself into form. My concern with Derrick is fragility. Walker, on the other hand, is just a mess, IMO. There's something not quite clicking between the ears for Lonnie.

Luka strikes me as someone who thinks he's better than he is. If Keldon is the leader of the lunch pail gang, Luka is the leader of the room service gang.

[KingKev]

I think White will play himself into form. My concern with Derrick is fragility. Walker, on the other hand, is just a mess, IMO. There's something not quite clicking between the ears for Lonnie.

Luka strikes me as someone who thinks he's better than he is. If Keldon is the leader of the lunch pail gang, Luka is the leader of the room service gang.

Don’t forget Forbes the new leader of the Coffee Gang