Tax on unrealized gains

[CosmicCowboy]

whatcha think?

Sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.

[CosmicCowboy]

16th amendment
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

[spurraider21]

i dont think its good policy, unconstitutional or not

[CosmicCowboy]

Wow, crickets. I figured Chump, RG and Winehole would be all over fucking the rich guys, constitutional or not.

[hater]

whatcha think?

Sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.

Tax it :tu

[Adam Lambert]

Not sure it's unconsititutional but I'd rather raise taxes substantially on realized gains.

[spurraider21]

Wow, crickets. I figured Chump, RG and Winehole would be all over fucking the rich guys, constitutional or not.
i think there are much better ways to fuck them over than taxing unrealized gains :tu

[Adam Lambert]

I don't believe in "punitive" taxation (though I also believe that's a term that's often wrongly applied to progressive taxes/brackets).

I do think we can use taxation to stabilize volatility in the market to close the benefit gap between passive retirement investors and active daytraders/robotraders. Like, would anyone, anywhere, be dissuaded from their normal stock trading activity if we added a 1% tax on all stock trades?

[spurraider21]

I don't believe in "punitive" taxation (though I also believe that's a term that's often wrongly applied to progressive taxes/brackets).

I do think we can use taxation to stabilize volatility in the market to close the benefit gap between passive retirement investors and active daytraders/robotraders. Like, would anyone, anywhere, be dissuaded from their normal stock trading activity if we added a 1% tax on all stock trades?
sorry. if you added a 1% tax i would just keep all my cash in my mattress from now on

[Adam Lambert]

Hell make it 0.1%. I don't know what the right number is but it sure as hell isn't zero.

[DMC]

As long as it's someone makes more than me, tax them 110% even on their already taxed holdings. Fuck them, that's what they get for being financially savvy. If I get to that level, then by all means stop that crazy shit.

[ElNono]

As long as it's someone makes more than me, tax them 110% even on their already taxed holdings. Fuck them, that's what they get for being financially savvy. If I get to that level, then by all means stop that crazy shit.

I'll just move to Canada... worst that can happen is I have to listen to Nickelback...

[DMC]

I'll just move to Canada... worst that can happen is I have to listen to Nickelback...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyI0uHHFOY

And live with this

[spurraider21]

As long as it's someone makes more than me, tax them 110% even on their already taxed holdings. Fuck them, that's what they get for being financially savvy. If I get to that level, then by all means stop that crazy shit.
:tu

[ElNono]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyI0uHHFOY

And live with this

I mean...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeGVeBWECu8

[Ef-man]

Hell make it 0.1%. I don't know what the right number is but it sure as hell isn't zero.

Tax the shit out of CEOs getting stock options as bonus or pay.

[spurraider21]

I mean...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeGVeBWECu8
my favorite is one with Richard Dawson during fast money. he asked during which month does a woman's pregnancy start to show and the contestant said "september" and he completely lost it and couldnt stop laughing for a few minutes

[Thread]

Pie-in-the-skyPERIOD

[DMX7]

Wow, crickets. I figured Chump, RG and Winehole would be all over fucking the rich guys, constitutional or not.

I think it's absolutely constitutional. I'm not sure how it couldn't be. I'm not sure it's good policy.

[boutons_deux]

Not sure it's unconsititutional but I'd rather raise taxes substantially on realized gains.

all income, earned/unearned, subject to all the payroll taxes

Crypto coin miners are taxed on the coins they mine, even if not converted to fiat money and pocketed.

If earn an LTC coin today at $100, then in two weeks I mine an LTC coin at $200, but keep them in my crypto wallet???

gonna be a fricking nightmare to log the coins earned and their price the day earned.

[Will Hunting]

I’d rather substantially raise the existing cap gains tax and raise the estate tax back to 1970s levels.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think it's absolutely constitutional. I'm not sure how it couldn't be. I'm not sure it's good policy.

:lol

16th Amendment


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Unrealized capital gains are not income

[Trill Clinton]

I'd quite trading if they did that.

[CosmicCowboy]

The plan apparently is to go ahead and try to "tax the super rich" while getting the other spending passed, then when it doesn't pass muster at the supreme court, they will still get the spending they wanted.

[MultiTroll]

Move it offshore if this scam passes.

[hater]

I think it's absolutely constitutional. I'm not sure how it couldn't be. I'm not sure it's good policy.

Agree. Nothing about taxes in the constitution right? So if regular taxes are ok, anything is ok :tu

Agree that this is just a BS show tho. As most super rich make money on Private Equity. Trust me I have worked on this field :lol

[rmt]

So, does it work in reverse? Do we get write-off on unrealized losses? LOL

And when it trickles down to us ordinary folks (because it always does), do we sell our assets just to pay the tax on the UNREALIZED gains?

[CosmicCowboy]

all income, earned/unearned, subject to all the payroll taxes

Crypto coin miners are taxed on the coins they mine, even if not converted to fiat money and pocketed.

If earn an LTC coin today at $100, then in two weeks I mine an LTC coin at $200, but keep them in my crypto wallet???

gonna be a fricking nightmare to log the coins earned and their price the day earned.

That's one of the dumbest things you have ever come up with Boukaki...a 15.3% tax (thats just SS and medicare) on unrealized gains when the average return on the S&P 500 over the last 20 years has been 5.3% adjusted for inflation would kill retirement accounts. Add the appropriate income tax on top of that? And taxing homeowners on the appreciation of their house every year would be insane if they don't sell it.

[CosmicCowboy]

Agree. Nothing about taxes in the constitution right? So if regular taxes are ok, anything is ok :tu

Agree that this is just a BS show tho. As most super rich make money on Private Equity. Trust me I have worked on this field :lol

The 16th amendment says hello.

[rmt]

all income, earned/unearned, subject to all the payroll taxes

Crypto coin miners are taxed on the coins they mine, even if not converted to fiat money and pocketed.

If earn an LTC coin today at $100, then in two weeks I mine an LTC coin at $200, but keep them in my crypto wallet???

gonna be a fricking nightmare to log the coins earned and their price the day earned.

Then you should be prepared to pay taxes on the $2000 you made when you bought bitcoin in the $1700+ and DIDN'T SELL before the end of the year.

edit: sorry, not bitcoin - ETH

[Adam Lambert]

That's one of the dumbest things you have ever come up with Boukaki...a 15.3% tax (thats just SS and medicare) on unrealized gains when the average return on the S&P 500 over the last 20 years has been 5.3% adjusted for inflation would kill retirement accounts. Add the appropriate income tax on top of that?

The math here isn't perfect, but for the sake of simplicity, 15.3% off 5.3% makes your S&P return 4.5%. How's that killing retirement accounts?

[CosmicCowboy]

15.3% off 5.3% means the S&P return would have been 4.5%. How's that killing retirement accounts?

Add in normal federal tax rate on top of that. Now, assume you have to sell stock to pay the tax. Next year you have less investment earning returns. Compound this over your earning lifetime and it can be hundreds of thousands of dollars siphoned ff.

[Adam Lambert]

Add in normal federal tax rate on top of that. Now, assume you have to sell stock to pay the tax. Next year you have less investment earning returns. Compound this over your earning lifetime and it can be hundreds of thousands of dollars siphoned ff.

So, 3% earnings at worst, maybe? At no point in this scenario are you having to pay more in tax than you earned in value increase, not even by half. You should never have less investment earning returns vs. the beginning of the previous year unless you pulled money out for other purposes or unless your value went down (which would mean you don't pay any of the taxes we're discussing.)

Like I said, I'm not a fan of unrealized gains taxation but I think you're overstating the consequence. The value rises either way.

[Adam Lambert]

And if recent precedent is any indication, taxation probably wouldn't start until after a certain level of annual earnings anyway.

[rmt]

The math here isn't perfect, but for the sake of simplicity, 15.3% off 5.3% makes your S&P return 4.5%. How's that killing retirement accounts?

That is significant due to COMPOUNDING especially over decades. Makes the ROTH all the more attractive, but I'm sure they'd find a way to double tax that too.

[rmt]

And if recent precedent is any indication, taxation probably wouldn't start until after a certain level of annual earnings anyway.

Yeah, that's how it always starts out - tax those RICH people but due to the insatiable appetite for taxes - sooner or later, it comes down to our level.

[Adam Lambert]

That is significant due to COMPOUNDING especially over decades. Makes the ROTH all the more attractive, but I'm sure they'd find a way to double tax that too.

You're going to think of any reduction in earnings as significant. If you're paying substantial compounding taxes over that time, that means you're earning even more substantial gains.

And as I'm sure you know, there are maximum contributions you can make into a Roth and that number isn't very high.

Sorry, but someone's got to pay for our bloated military and weapons contracts.

[hater]

The 16th amendment says hello.

Ok thanks. So then these gains tax is constitutional. :tu

[CosmicCowboy]

Ok thanks. So then these gains tax is constitutional. :tu

a little slow?

Unrealized gains are not income. 16th amendment specifically say INCOME can be taxed.

[rmt]

Ok thanks. So then these gains tax is constitutional. :tu

They aren't gains until they are realized - stock could go down the next day and there are no gains. The key word is taxing of UNREALIZED gains.

[RandomGuy]

16th amendment
taxes on incomes


Incomes would seem to be "gains". Therefore constitutional.

[RandomGuy]

Add in normal federal tax rate on top of that. Now, assume you have to sell stock to pay the tax. Next year you have less investment earning returns. Compound this over your earning lifetime and it can be hundreds of thousands of dollars siphoned ff.

Same argument can be made for any tax. Since you are attempting to show this specific tax should not be enacted, it becomes irrelevant due to the necessary nature of taxes in general.

[RandomGuy]

They aren't gains until they are realized - stock could go down the next day and there are no gains. The key word is taxing of UNREALIZED gains.

I reject your definition.

Now what?

[Spurs Homer]

lololol


“constitutionality” matters now?

[hater]

a little slow?

Unrealized gains are not income. 16th amendment specifically say INCOME can be taxed.

If its considered a direct tax its constitutional :tu

Tax it

[hater]

They aren't gains until they are realized - stock could go down the next day and there are no gains. The key word is taxing of UNREALIZED gains.

Read my post above. Cheers

[RandomGuy]

Two kinds of people defend billionaires from taxes.

Billionaires and suckers.

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Two kinds of people defend billionaires from taxes.

Billionaires and suckers.

MF Biden has already given up 1/2 of it. Still doesn't have the $ for the half that's left.
ha, ha.

[Will Hunting]

I actually agree with CC that using the plain meaning of income would make this unconstitutional.

There's definitely valid arguments in the other direction but the common public understanding of the word income doesn't include an appreciation in the value of an asset you own. Income is when you receive money from labor/an investment, inherit money/assets, etc.

Fixing the stepped up basis loophole, increasing the cap gains tax & reforming the trust fund baby tax would solve for everything this "billionaires tax" would solve for only it'd be unquestionably better policy and it would be constitutional.

[Will Hunting]

So, does it work in reverse? Do we get write-off on unrealized losses? LOL

And when it trickles down to us ordinary folks (because it always does), do we sell our assets just to pay the tax on the UNREALIZED gains?
It wouldn't trickle down because taxing the unrealized gains of normal upper middle class Americans in the low six figures would be political suicide.

I agree with the part about unrealized losses though, that's what doesn't make sense. Is this just a "mark to market" tax billionaires pay every year? How do illiquid assets get valued? Everyone thinks of the stock Musk/Bezos owns and sure that's easy to value and determine the unrealized gain on, but I'll take the under on the IRS being able to accurately value a billionaires' real estate portfolio / private holdings.

This tax is just bad policy all around, and that's even before considering the fact the Roberts Court would never in a million years uphold it.

[CosmicCowboy]

It was bad enough and unconstitutional enough that they have already given up on it.

[hater]

It was bad enough and unconstitutional enough that they have already given up on it.

The unconstitutionality was never an issue. As I called it. This was just a show. Billionaires makes money on Private Equity

[Thread]

The unconstitutionality was never an issue. As I called it. This was just a show. Billionaires makes money on Private Equity

hater