Pippen is just another cog in the Jordan propaganda machine

[ambchang]

https://www.gq.com/story/scottie-pippen-unguarded-book-excerpt?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I agree Pippen is getting bitter, and he wouldn't be as well know if it wasn't for Jordan, but he is 100% correct that players are being thrown under the bus and disrespected to build up that Jordan myth.

People made it out like Jordan can do no wrong to win the 6 titles all by himself, what they don't mention is that the Bulls had one of the best defensive backcourt ever. While Jordan was part of that, Pippen, then later Harper had a huge part in it. The interior defence of players like Grant and Rodman also had a great hand in it. The front office smartly put in people who can shoot (Pax, Armstrong, Kerr, Wennington) to open up the lanes for Jordan and Pippen to drive to the basket but their names were dragged through mud.

Like all history, the winner gets to write it.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It was always all about MJ. Pippen willingly played the trusty sidekick for about 10% of Michael’s salary. 25 years later there’s no one Pippen can blame but Pippen for any lack of accolades cast his way.

[Dirks_Finale]

I mean, did he honestly think HE was supposed to be the focal point of the documentary, though? :lol These guys age, romanticize the past, become irrelevant and also delusional as a result.

It's true that Jordan likely did this to try and put Lebron in his place, but Pippen got plenty of love in the Last Dance as well. I think he just wanted to revise history some, the same way Dr. Dre did in Straight Outta Compton. I remember watching that game live (Kukoc winner) then later having it confirmed that Pippen was a dbag who refused to go back in. Couldn't believe it. He was an incredible all around player but he was NEVER clutch. He had 7 seasons where he shot under 70% from the line. He was cringeworthy offensively in crunch time, tbh. There was only 1 MJ and he aint it.

[lefty]

He did hit clutch shots 3 times in the playoffs tho but the media keep bombarding us with the Kukoc inicdent and all the MJ clutch shots

[FrostKing]

> People made it out like Jordan can do no wrong to win the 6 titles

This was not my takeaway. Jordan had a few failures that were focal points of the documentary.

Bottomline the series could have gone another 6 episodes and yet held its intrigue. They fast forwarded thru entire seasons and even playoff series just to get to the Finals.

[james evans]

25 years from now when Klay is forgotten and ESPN reminds kids who aren't born yet that Curry took 11 guys he pulled off the street to 3 titles, he'll be writing these type of books too.

[Dirks_Finale]

Fucking role player. :lol

He said he wants to be remembered as the GOAT :lol

He actually said that. Must be smoking some good sh1t.

[ambchang]

This thread just basically summarized the twisted sentiment. Sure Pippen wasn’t the man and he knew he wasn’t. What the issue was is that it was all Michael. It wasn’t.

The bulls were a team specifically constructed around the strengths of jordan and Pippen was a huge part in plugging the holes in Jordan’s game. The narrative of the bulls winning six titles solely because of jordan is hogwash but that’s what the media has been selling, and the audience been buying, over the last two decades.

[Neo.]

I mean, did he honestly think HE was supposed to be the focal point of the documentary, though? :lol These guys age, romanticize the past, become irrelevant and also delusional as a result.

It's true that Jordan likely did this to try and put Lebron in his place, but Pippen got plenty of love in the Last Dance as well. I think he just wanted to revise history some, the same way Dr. Dre did in Straight Outta Compton. I remember watching that game live (Kukoc winner) then later having it confirmed that Pippen was a dbag who refused to go back in. Couldn't believe it. He was an incredible all around player but he was NEVER clutch. He had 7 seasons where he shot under 70% from the line. He was cringeworthy offensively in crunch time, tbh. There was only 1 MJ and he aint it.

stupid take, obviously pippen knew he shouldn't be the focal point

the issue was how it painted a picture as if it was mostly a 1 man show with a little help from Scottie and Dennis, when in fact it was a team stacked (for it's time, considering the 90s were a weak era) with talented players who accepted much lesser roles for the sake of winning

[james evans]

This thread just basically summarized the twisted sentiment. Sure Pippen wasn’t the man and he knew he wasn’t. What the issue was is that it was all Michael. It wasn’t.

The bulls were a team specifically constructed around the strengths of jordan and Pippen was a huge part in plugging the holes in Jordan’s game. The narrative of the bulls winning six titles solely because of jordan is hogwash but that’s what the media has been selling, and the audience been buying, over the last two decades.
on top of that, Jordan was still making all defensive teams during the 2nd 3 peat and wasn't playing ANY defense whatsoever. Phil Jackson himself stated this in his book. Jordan was older and phil said they constructed a team with length(why they let BJ go in expansion draft and kept Harper, while also bringing in Rodman) so Jordan could rest on defense. Phil said this shit!!! So here you have a guy guarding 3rd and 4th option spot up shooters and just running wild on offense.

[james evans]

stupid take, obviously pippen knew he shouldn't be the focal point

the issue was how it painted a picture as if it was mostly a 1 man show with a little help from Scottie and Dennis, when in fact it was a team stacked (for it's time, considering the 90s were a weak era) with talented players who accepted much lesser roles for the sake of winning
ESPN really makes it seems as though Jordan just carried 11 guys to 6 titles that could do nothing but get dressed for the game.

[baseline bum]

https://www.gq.com/story/scottie-pippen-unguarded-book-excerpt?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I agree Pippen is getting bitter, and he wouldn't be as well know if it wasn't for Jordan, but he is 100% correct that players are being thrown under the bus and disrespected to build up that Jordan myth.

People made it out like Jordan can do no wrong to win the 6 titles all by himself, what they don't mention is that the Bulls had one of the best defensive backcourt ever. While Jordan was part of that, Pippen, then later Harper had a huge part in it. The interior defence of players like Grant and Rodman also had a great hand in it. The front office smartly put in people who can shoot (Pax, Armstrong, Kerr, Wennington) to open up the lanes for Jordan and Pippen to drive to the basket but their names were dragged through mud.

Like all history, the winner gets to write it.

Yeah man, Harper was a borderline allstar in Cleveland and on the Clippers. Kind of sad to see how underrated he got in Chicago when he wasn't getting many touches any more.

[Dirks_Finale]

stupid take, obviously pippen knew he shouldn't be the focal point

the issue was how it painted a picture as if it was mostly a 1 man show with a little help from Scottie and Dennis, when in fact it was a team stacked (for it's time, considering the 90s were a weak era) with talented players who accepted much lesser roles for the sake of winning

Uninformed take.

You obviously did not see him recently state he wants to remembered as the GOAT. This is about his own ego and romanticizing the past.

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah man, Harper was a borderline allstar in Cleveland and on the Clippers. Kind of sad to see how underrated he got in Chicago when he wasn't getting many touches any more.

His game had diminished significantly by the time he got to Chicago. Torn ACL and age did him in and he lost his explosiveness.

[Dirks_Finale]

ESPN really makes it seems as though Jordan just carried 11 guys to 6 titles that could do nothing but get dressed for the game.

Well ESPN might but the Last Dance did not push that narrative. Pippen and Rodman were given plenty of credit. Even Jerry Krause the villain was given some credit.

[Dirks_Finale]

25 years from now when Klay is forgotten and ESPN reminds kids who aren't born yet that Curry took 11 guys he pulled off the street to 3 titles, he'll be writing these type of books too.

Doubtful. Everyone will also recall Curry choking in the Finals. The sort of stuff that never happened to Jordan.

[baseline bum]

His game had diminished significantly by the time he got to Chicago. Torn ACL and age did him in and he lost his explosiveness.

Did he tear his ACL his last year on the Clippers or something? Harper was still a high end defensive player in Chicago.

[Neo.]

Uninformed take.

You obviously did not see him recently state he wants to remembered as the GOAT. This is about his own ego and romanticizing the past.

:lmao :lmao :lmao taking pippens bait

[Neo.]

Did he tear his ACL his last year on the Clippers or something? Harper was still a high end defensive player in Chicago.

no hes just making crap up as usual :lmao

the acl injury happened in 90, and the very next season (and each season until chicago) he averaged around 19/5/5

dude was fine, he just took a significantly reduced role to win. but jordanstans will do anything to revise history.

[lefty]

25 years from now when Klay is forgotten and ESPN reminds kids who aren't born yet that Curry took 11 guys he pulled off the street to 3 titles, he'll be writing these type of books too.
This tbh

[lefty]

Pippen hasn’t been the same since his son died tbh

The last dance and the cucking have made matters worse

He’s not in a good place right now

[lefty]

Doubtful. Everyone will also recall Curry choking in the Finals. The sort of stuff that never happened to Jordan.

That’s because Jordan choked for 7 years before winning a title
Also in 1995 vs Orlando

But according to the media, Jordan only played 1991-1993 and 1996-98 :lol

[baseline bum]

no hes just making crap up as usual :lmao

the acl injury happened in 90, and the very next season (and each season until chicago) he averaged around 19/5/5

dude was fine, he just took a significantly reduced role to win. but jordanstans will do anything to revise history.

LOL I should have known better than to take a Dirks_Finale post seriously.

[ambchang]

His game had diminished significantly by the time he got to Chicago. Torn ACL and age did him in and he lost his explosiveness.

He had 3 full seasons of 18+ppg after the ACL injury before he even got to Chicago. His reduction on the offensive end was strictly due to less touches.

[ambchang]

Uninformed take.

You obviously did not see him recently state he wants to remembered as the GOAT. This is about his own ego and romanticizing the past.

Hey, I want to be remembered as a GOAT in the NBA as well even though I am not even good enough for a tryout. Who doesn't?

[FrostKing]

Scottie is all over the place. If he wants to fluff his legacy then he shouldn't have spent time talking up Lebron, whom is a direct style of play clone.

Pippen had his opportunity with the Rockets and Blazers. That 7th ring would have really changed this conversation.

[Neo.]

Scottie is all over the place. If he wants to fluff his legacy then he shouldn't have spent time talking up Lebron, whom is a direct style of play clone.

Pippen had his opportunity with the Rockets and Blazers. That 7th ring would have really changed this conversation.

pippen definitely has his inconsistencies, where one day hes saying lebron would destroy mike, then a few years later hes saying the opposite

but hes definitely not wrong that things have gotten out of hand over the years with how little appreciation he and the rest of the bulls squad receive for their teams success. and its almost entirely been done with the intent to downplay the accomplishments of guys like kobe kd steph and lebron to keep mike on the highest pedestal, which is pathetic.

if someone like luka or giannis wins a few rings, the same crap will happen to them as well. the single worst thing to happen to the nba is jordanstans.

[Dirks_Finale]

Look at Harp's fg% in Cleveland. Then look at his final year in LA. The explosiveness was gone. If you watched him back then, you don't need to see the dip in efficiency through stats, it was evident. Nobody said he wasn't a good defender or role player. Excellent defender and underrated in that dept.

[Dirks_Finale]

Scottie is all over the place. If he wants to fluff his legacy then he shouldn't have spent time talking up Lebron, whom is a direct style of play clone.

Pippen had his opportunity with the Rockets and Blazers. That 7th ring would have really changed this conversation.

He says all sorts of stupid sh1t now.

[KobesAchilles]

I still remember Pip sucking so bad in Houston and then trying to pin that shit of Barkley. Like Pip scored 4 points a game until game 7 and then threw Barkley under the bus. The dude has always been delusional

[baseline bum]

I still remember Pip sucking so bad in Houston and then trying to pin that shit of Barkley. Like Pip scored 4 points a game until game 7 and then threw Barkley under the bus. The dude has always been delusional

Meh I watched a ton of Rockets games that year and their offense was basically just dump the ball into Barkley or Olajuwon and have them hold the ball while Pippen stood at the three point line and then had to fire desperation shots at the end of the shot clock when Barkley or Olajuwon would finally kick the ball back out. That team was the whole reason for the 5-second backdown rule. It was a disgusting brand of basketball to watch and completely wasted Pippen's talents.

[lefty]

I still remember Pip sucking so bad in Houston and then trying to pin that shit of Barkley. Like Pip scored 4 points a game until game 7 and then threw Barkley under the bus. The dude has always been delusional

He was criticizing Barkley for his lack of defensive effort IIRC

[KobesAchilles]

Meh I watched a ton of Rockets games that year and their offense was basically just dump the ball into Barkley or Olajuwon and have them hold the ball while Pippen stood at the three point line and then had to fire desperation shots at the end of the shot clock when Barkley or Olajuwon would finally kick the ball back out. That team was the whole reason for the 5-second backdown rule. It was a disgusting brand of basketball to watch and completely wasted Pippen's talents.
Im not saying that the team was a world beater or anything but the dude contributed nothing both offensively and defensively. And then he dragged Charles through the mud saying he can see why you can’t ever win with Chuck on your team and blah blah blah. I know Chuck never did win but he was a hella player

[DMC]

Scotty deserves all the accolades he gets. He was the other part of the duo that ran off two threepeats. You don't have to like him, but that's where it is.

[Neo.]

Look at Harp's fg% in Cleveland. Then look at his final year in LA. The explosiveness was gone. If you watched him back then, you don't need to see the dip in efficiency through stats, it was evident. Nobody said he wasn't a good defender or role player. Excellent defender and underrated in that dept.

yet he was still putting up 20/5/5

he was a very productive player who took a much lesser role to be part of a stacked team, simple as that

[baseline bum]

Im not saying that the team was a world beater or anything but the dude contributed nothing both offensively and defensively. And then he dragged Charles through the mud saying he can see why you can’t ever win with Chuck on your team and blah blah blah. I know Chuck never did win but he was a hella player

Chuck wasn't a hell of a player in 1999 when he was a black hole on the block and forcing Pippen into basically playing the Bruce Bowen role on offense.

[KobesAchilles]

Chuck wasn't a hell of a player in 1999 when he was a black hole on the block and forcing Pippen into basically playing the Bruce Bowen role on offense.
No Charles wasn't. My point is mainly that Pip is a worse player than Chuck and him talking shit about a better player is another example of him thinking he is better than he was. Dude is a nice Robin who wasn't able to carry a team. Also Nobody forced Pip to do shit in that series. Rewatch the series. the dude sucked the entire series on both offense and defense. The dude shot 6 for 23 and they had in in Bruce Bowen mode??? When tf did Bowen ever take 23 shots in a game? Hell the game before he took 27 shots! You are remembering that series wrong my friend. He also had a game where he missed every shot he took.

[Dirks_Finale]

'Jordanstans'...delusional people like the great Jerry West...:lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDN9FVrlU24

[Dirks_Finale]

No Charles wasn't. My point is mainly that Pip is a worse player than Chuck and him talking shit about a better player is another example of him thinking he is better than he was. Dude is a nice Robin who wasn't able to carry a team. Also Nobody forced Pip to do shit in that series. Rewatch the series. the dude sucked the entire series on both offense and defense. The dude shot 6 for 23 and they had in in Bruce Bowen mode??? When tf did Bowen ever take 23 shots in a game? Hell the game before he took 27 shots! You are remembering that series wrong my friend. He also had a game where he missed every shot he took.

Agree with most of this and good point about Pippen laying all those damn bricks in that series. He was atrocious besides that one good game.

But overall you could argue that Pippen was as good as Barkley, he just never really had the chance to lead teams in his prime years like Chuck did. He had that one year in 94 when MJ played baseball and he was like 3rd in MVP voting and led the Bulls to 55 wins. Still not in Jordan's stratosphere, but I do wonder if he could have sustained that type of play from 94 while leading his own team during his prime.

[baseline bum]

No Charles wasn't. My point is mainly that Pip is a worse player than Chuck and him talking shit about a better player is another example of him thinking he is better than he was. Dude is a nice Robin who wasn't able to carry a team. Also Nobody forced Pip to do shit in that series. Rewatch the series. the dude sucked the entire series on both offense and defense. The dude shot 6 for 23 and they had in in Bruce Bowen mode??? When tf did Bowen ever take 23 shots in a game? Hell the game before he took 27 shots! You are remembering that series wrong my friend. He also had a game where he missed every shot he took.

Says the guy saying a 4 game series went 7? So Pippen had a horrific game 2. Are you going to trash Olajuwon too for having a 5 point game and an 8 point game that series? I'm not talking just the series, I'm talking the entire season. They tried to force Pippen to be a spot up shooter with Barkley and Olajuwon holding the ball every possession. Do you think it's some accident the NBA implemented a five second rule for backing people down in the post as soon as this season was over?

[KobesAchilles]

Says the guy saying a 4 game series went 7? So Pippen had a horrific game 2. Are you going to trash Olajuwon too for having a 5 point game and an 8 point game that series? I'm not talking just the series, I'm talking the entire season. They tried to force Pippen to be a spot up shooter with Barkley and Olajuwon holding the ball every possession. Do you think it's some accident the NBA implemented a five second rule for backing people down in the post as soon as this season was over?
Literally my first post was about the playoffs:lol
Pippen was shit talking Charles after that series saying you can't win with him and he should've listened to MJ and blah blah blah
None of that happened in the regular season. Your point has nothing to do with mine apparently. Also he sucked the whole series. His one good game was where he shot 12 for 27. Other than that he sucked.

Pip never takes responsibility for his own play and actions. Sits out against the Knicks and Phil is a racist. Doesn't show up in 3 outta 4 games including an 0fer and he blames Charles. Doesn't get surgery in the offseason and it's the GMs fault.

As much as people want to say that MJ is lucky to have Pip, Jordan would've won a title or two without him. When you're the best player in the world for several years you are going to win a title or 2. There's never been a case where that hasn't happened. Pip is waaaaaaay more lucky to have Jordan bc Pip can't carry a team and would've been seen as a 3rd tier player during the 90s had you replaced him with any other top player during the time.

[KobesAchilles]

Agree with most of this and good point about Pippen laying all those damn bricks in that series. He was atrocious besides that one good game.

But overall you could argue that Pippen was as good as Barkley, he just never really had the chance to lead teams in his prime years like Chuck did. He had that one year in 94 when MJ played baseball and he was like 3rd in MVP voting and led the Bulls to 55 wins. Still not in Jordan's stratosphere, but I do wonder if he could have sustained that type of play from 94 while leading his own team during his prime.
The team sucked the very next year. Pippen lost the whole team as a leader when he quit on them. This was well documented at the time

[Dirks_Finale]

The team sucked the very next year. Pippen lost the whole team as a leader when he quit on them. This was well documented at the time

He was a bit of a baby.

[JamStone]

Superstars get superstar treatment, on the court, in the media, in the public eye, and when remembered in the history of the game. That’s one of the perks of being the superstar. People don’t give a shit about AC Green or Danny Ainge or Bruce Bowen. No matter how much basketball purists and historians may want to give role players their flowers, they’re still fucking role players. Sure, maybe Michael doesn’t win without Pippen or Rodman... maybe. But Pippen and Rodman for damn sure don’t win shit without Michael. And that’s why he’s the superstar. That’s why his side of the story gets written and told.

The Jackson 5 story is about Michael Jackson. Don’t get it twisted. It’s not about Tito or Marlon.

[lefty]

Superstars get superstar treatment, on the court, in the media, in the public eye, and when remembered in the history of the game. That’s one of the perks of being the superstar. People don’t give a shit about AC Green or Danny Ainge or Bruce Bowen. No matter how much basketball purists and historians may want to give role players their flowers, they’re still fucking role players. Sure, maybe Michael doesn’t win without Pippen or Rodman... maybe. But Pippen and Rodman for damn sure don’t win shit without Michael. And that’s why he’s the superstar. That’s why his side of the story gets written and told.

The Jackson 5 story is about Michael Jackson. Don’t get it twisted. It’s not about Tito or Marlon.

Maybe Michael doesn’t win without Pip or Rodman?
Remove that maybe because he wouldn’t have won without them period
And Rodman actually won without Michael tbh

[KobesAchilles]

Maybe Michael doesn’t win without Pip or Rodman?
Remove that maybe because he wouldn’t have won without them period
And Rodman actually won without Michael tbh
Name a time when the best player in the world didn't win an NBA championship? I can't think of one tbh.
Wilt and Russell
Dr. J and Kareem
Magic and Bird
Jordan
Kobe Shaq and Duncan
Lebron
Curry
Giannis.
All have been the best player in the world and all have won chips. It goes against history to think that Jordan wouldn't win a championship without Pip. And he already won 3 without Rodman. 1stpeat Grant was a better player than 2ndpeat Rodman tbh

[Isitjustme?]

Pippen is being a big cry baby about this. Of course the fact that he refused to enter the game for a game-winning shot in the playoffs in the middle of his career is going to be a huge part of his life story. Besides, he wasn't even portrayed that bad in the last dance at all

[Amuseddaysleeper]

the documentary was a fun watch, but absolutely felt like an MJ commercial as oppose to a gritty behind the scenes look at the 90's Bulls. I thought it wasn't nearly as intriguing as far as the fly on the wall vibe we were advertised to be getting during that run. Obviously, with MJ being a producer you knew it was going to be a romanticized version of the past.

[lefty]

Name a time when the best player in the world didn't win an NBA championship? I can't think of one tbh.
Wilt and Russell
Dr. J and Kareem
Magic and Bird
Jordan
Kobe Shaq and Duncan
Lebron
Curry
Giannis.
All have been the best player in the world and all have won chips. It goes against history to think that Jordan wouldn't win a championship without Pip. And he already won 3 without Rodman. 1stpeat Grant was a better player than 2ndpeat Rodman tbh

Pippen was their 2nd best scorer, their playmaker, best individual and help defender

There is no way in hell Chicago sniffs a title without him

and yes,Grant was underrated

[KobesAchilles]

Pippen was their 2nd best scorer, their playmaker, best individual and help defender

There is no way in hell Chicago sniffs a title without him

and yes,Grant was underrated
And yet every single top player in the league ever has won a title. Jordan wouldn't have won 6 without Pip, but to say that he wouldn't win one is stupid.
Russell did
Wilt did
Dr. J did
Kareem did
Magic did
Bird did
Kobe did
Shaq did
Duncan did
Lebron did
Curry did
Giannis did.

And Jordan wouldn't win one? Just give the dude an all star and would've. The East was very weak in the 90s tbh. There was no great team besides the Bulls

[Isitjustme?]

And yet every single top player in the league ever has won a title. Jordan wouldn't have won 6 without Pip, but to say that he wouldn't win one is stupid.
Russell did
Wilt did
Dr. J did
Kareem did
Magic did
Bird did
Kobe did
Shaq did
Duncan did
Lebron did
Curry did
Giannis did.

And Jordan wouldn't win one? Just give the dude an all star and would've. The East was very weak in the 90s tbh. There was no great team besides the Bulls

Forget it Achilles, its Leftytown

[ambchang]

Name a time when the best player in the world didn't win an NBA championship? I can't think of one tbh.
Wilt and Russell
Dr. J and Kareem
Magic and Bird
Jordan
Kobe Shaq and Duncan
Lebron
Curry
Giannis.
All have been the best player in the world and all have won chips. It goes against history to think that Jordan wouldn't win a championship without Pip. And he already won 3 without Rodman. 1stpeat Grant was a better player than 2ndpeat Rodman tbh

They were regarded as the best player in the world because they won a title.

[ambchang]

Im not saying that the team was a world beater or anything but the dude contributed nothing both offensively and defensively. And then he dragged Charles through the mud saying he can see why you can’t ever win with Chuck on your team and blah blah blah. I know Chuck never did win but he was a hella player

I always felt chuck is hard to build around because he has two major issues with his game.

First, his defence is subpar. Either he’s unwilling or unable I wouldn’t know. But compared to the other PF greats likely dirk was the only worse defender (or maybe on par).

Second his pound the ball offence is easy to stop for the better defensive teams. That Suns team had Kevin Johnson and Richard Dumas to help create and made it difficult to stop.

I love Barkley and found him to be funny and genuine but his game did have major holes that are hard to build around. With the right circumstances I think he could’ve had a dirk like title team where there is a big man to help do the dirty work inside and a bunch of shooters around him.

[FrostKing]

Barkley was stuck in the wrong ERA. Undersized PF with ball handling/outside shot. He is ideal for today.

If not for Pippen, MJ would have had to stick around longer diminishing his legacy - losing Finals and lower career stats. 3Peat in modern Era is incredibly rare so that probably would have not occurred, atleast not twice.

[lefty]

And yet every single top player in the league ever has won a title. Jordan wouldn't have won 6 without Pip, but to say that he wouldn't win one is stupid.
Russell did
Wilt did
Dr. J did
Kareem did
Magic did
Bird did
Kobe did
Shaq did
Duncan did
Lebron did
Curry did
Giannis did.

And Jordan wouldn't win one? Just give the dude an all star and would've. The East was very weak in the 90s tbh. There was no great team besides the Bulls

Yes he needed another all star
that’s the point tbh
Without another all star like Pip he was just a bald Derozan with a gambling addiction tbh

[FrostKing]

Yes he needed another all star
that’s the point tbh
Without another all star like Pip he was just a bald Derozan with a gambling addiction tbh
Compare the 98 Bulls and 99 Rockets. Pippen is the common denominator.

Was Rodman that superior to Hakeem or Barkley?

The massive drop off was because the 99 Rockets didn't have #23...

[DMC]

And yet every single top player in the league ever has won a title. Jordan wouldn't have won 6 without Pip, but to say that he wouldn't win one is stupid.
Russell did
Wilt did
Dr. J did
Kareem did
Magic did
Bird did
Kobe did
Shaq did
Duncan did
Lebron did
Curry did
Giannis did.

And Jordan wouldn't win one? Just give the dude an all star and would've. The East was very weak in the 90s tbh. There was no great team besides the Bulls
There are a lot of great players who could be ranked higher if they won rings. It's hard to think of them as best in the world because that comes from beating other teams. You aren't the best if you didn't win.

[ambchang]

Yes he needed another all star
that’s the point tbh
Without another all star like Pip he was just a bald Derozan with a gambling addiction tbh

In that era it’s rare to have two superstars on one team. There’s Stockton and Malone, Kemp and Payton, shaq and penny. But when you look at the other top tier stars there aren’t another superstar teammate.

Ewing’s best teammate was either Starks or Oakley
Barkley had nothing in Philly and an oft injured Kevin Johnson
Robinson had Elliott
Olajuwon had Drexler for one year but the rest of them time he had Thorpe. Pippen and Barkley joined when he was pretty much done.

None of those second tier stars were at the level of pippen. You can make an argument most top tier stars second in command is comparable to grant or rodman than to Pippen.

Jordan had stacks of help and it’s not even close. Only pedo can claim to have someone as good as Stockton but he’s a world class choker and karma wouldn’t let him ring. Shaq and penny was short lived and they imploded. I’d say both Payton and kemp were Scottie level and not at the level of shaq, Ewing, robinson, or hakeem, let alone jordan

[ambchang]

Compare the 98 Bulls and 99 Rockets. Pippen is the common denominator.

Was Rodman that superior to Hakeem or Barkley?

The massive drop off was because the 99 Rockets didn't have #23...

Why would you compare two teams with one common player rather than a much closer comparison like the 93 bulls be the 94 bulls?

[Chris Fall]

Because the records between the 93 Bulls and 94 Bulls by themselves don't give a true picture of how the Bulls fell off because they were still winning. The team offense went from one of the best in the league to middle of the pack. And Pippen's individual numbers barely improved. So what did the 94 Bulls really prove? That they could still win games in a shitty conference.

And just look at the following season when they were 34-31 when Jordan unretired and returned. Then finished the season 13-4 with Jordan. Doesn't get mentioned much.

People use the 94 Bulls as some evidence that Scottie was great. Horse shit. After a threepeat championship run, they lost in the fucking second round. Pippen is a John Wall kind of superstar. He was Paul George before Paul George. Except Paul George can shoot.

[lefty]

Because the records between the 93 Bulls and 94 Bulls by themselves don't give a true picture of how the Bulls fell off because they were still winning. The team offense went from one of the best in the league to middle of the pack. And Pippen's individual numbers barely improved. So what did the 94 Bulls really prove? That they could still win games in a shitty conference.

And just look at the following season when they were 34-31 when Jordan unretired and returned. Then finished the season 13-4 with Jordan. Doesn't get mentioned much.

People use the 94 Bulls as some evidence that Scottie was great. Horse shit. After a threepeat championship run, they lost in the fucking second round. Pippen is a John Wall kind of superstar. He was Paul George before Paul George. Except Paul George can shoot.

Their defense improved without Jordan tbh

[Chris Fall]

It did. But that team defense improvement wasn't just or even mostly because of Pippen. Some folks credit the 94 Bulls as proof that Pippen was his own superstar. I didn't view it that way at all.

[baseline bum]

Barkley was stuck in the wrong ERA. Undersized PF with ball handling/outside shot. He is ideal for today.

If not for Pippen, MJ would have had to stick around longer diminishing his legacy - losing Finals and lower career stats. 3Peat in modern Era is incredibly rare so that probably would have not occurred, atleast not twice.

Barkley's biggest weakness was he was in love with the three point shot despite shooting them terribly. This era would have brought out the worst in his game.

[Neo.]

Barkley's biggest weakness was he was in love with the three point shot despite shooting them terribly. This era would have brought out the worst in his game.

which is ironic considering how quick he is to criticize players who have size or good postup games yet overuse the 3

[Kurgan]

Larry Bird: "Pippen is the second best player in the league when he is playing with Michael and about the 5th best player without him"

[james evans]

Maybe Michael doesn’t win without Pip or Rodman?
Remove that maybe because he wouldn’t have won without them period
And Rodman actually won without Michael tbh
there is no "maybe". he simply doesn't. lol. MJ has won a total of 1 playoff games(not series, but games) before the 87-88 season.

[FrostKing]

there is no "maybe". he simply doesn't. lol. MJ has won a total of 1 playoff games(not series, but games) before the 87-88 season.
When the Bulls made the 2nd Round in '88, Pippen was a bench player. Jordan had "the Shot" against Cleveland. Rodman wasn't on the team.

He was still only 24 yrs old.

[KobesAchilles]

There are a lot of great players who could be ranked higher if they won rings. It's hard to think of them as best in the world because that comes from beating other teams. You aren't the best if you didn't win.
That's not really true when it comes to being the best player in the league. Which player was better than Russell and Wilt. Hell Wilt averaged 50 a game and 24 rebounds and he didn't win. No players were better than Kareem and Dr. J or Bird Magic and Jordan. Even when Jordan lost to the Pistons, they all knew he was the best player. Everyone knew it. Same with LBJ. Same with Shaq, Duncan, Kobe. They win BECAUSE they're great. They aren't great because they win

[KobesAchilles]

Their defense improved without Jordan tbh
Scottie lost the whole team after sitting out. Kerr said it. Phil said it. Grant said it. Scottie wasn't a main guy. That's why they fell apart the next year.

[KobesAchilles]

I always felt chuck is hard to build around because he has two major issues with his game.

First, his defence is subpar. Either he’s unwilling or unable I wouldn’t know. But compared to the other PF greats likely dirk was the only worse defender (or maybe on par).

Second his pound the ball offence is easy to stop for the better defensive teams. That Suns team had Kevin Johnson and Richard Dumas to help create and made it difficult to stop.

I love Barkley and found him to be funny and genuine but his game did have major holes that are hard to build around. With the right circumstances I think he could’ve had a dirk like title team where there is a big man to help do the dirty work inside and a bunch of shooters around him.
Tbh Chuck was robbed of a ring. But Chuck also had some bad luck when it came to injuries. He was injured after the 93 season a lot or KJ was injured a lot. They were a 1 year wonder due to that. The 93 team though was special and I don't think Chuck was that hard to build around.

Yeah his style of play where he pound the ball inside, back his man down, slow it down was repetitive, but a lot of successful teams played that way. The Celtics were the same style. Duncan and Shaq and Hakeem were too. He was also fantastic in the open court.

Barkley struggled with being in shape. It's why he jacked up so many 3s because he was too tired to play in the post. His defense wasn't that big an issue to me bc honestly you could hide him on a SF not named Pip. Also a lot of PFs in the East were really shitty. Just bad luck for Chuck that he had to go against Malone and Kemp.

[james evans]

When the Bulls made the 2nd Round in '88, Pippen was a bench player. Jordan had "the Shot" against Cleveland. Rodman wasn't on the team.

He was still only 24 yrs old.
A bench player that still contributed. And when rodman wasn't on the team for the first 3 peat, they had grant from 91-93. Grant wasn't there in 95 when they were beat by Orlando. Jordan wasn't there in 94 when they were beat by the Knicks so yes the bulls were more than a 1 or 2 man show. Bringing in Rodman was like a cheat code and one of the top 5 worst trades in NBA history. but Popopvich makes that list twice and his ego/ stupidity has contributed to 4 rings for other franchises (bulls 96-98, Raptors '19)

[FrostKing]

A bench player that still contributed. And when rodman wasn't on the team for the first 3 peat, they had grant from 91-93. Grant wasn't there in 95 when they were beat by Orlando. Jordan wasn't there in 94 when they were beat by the Knicks so yes the bulls were more than a 1 or 2 man show. Bringing in Rodman was like a cheat code and one of the top 5 worst trades in NBA history. but Popopvich makes that list twice and his ego/ stupidity has contributed to 4 rings for other franchises (bulls 96-98, Raptors '19)
Rodman was finished mentally which is why he flamed out shortly after Chicago. He had 1 eye on life off the court even with the Bulls in the 2nd & 3rd season.

No one is saying Jordan led a team of nobodies to the Title. We all remember his 2 seasons with the Wizards. The point is Pippen was a bigger beneficiary of the relationship. I highly doubt Scottie would be anywhere near these 50 Greatest Players lists without Jordan. On the flip side MJ would still be in the GOAT discussion.

IMO Scottie made sacrifices and feels they are overlooked. But he doesn't realize his legacy is tied to the Bulls and their accomplishments. He's a 16PPG career player. Jordan's influence goes beyond even the basketball court. It might sting Pippen that he was 3rd in terms of being a Pop Icon to Rodman.

[baseline bum]

A bench player that still contributed. And when rodman wasn't on the team for the first 3 peat, they had grant from 91-93. Grant wasn't there in 95 when they were beat by Orlando. Jordan wasn't there in 94 when they were beat by the Knicks so yes the bulls were more than a 1 or 2 man show. Bringing in Rodman was like a cheat code and one of the top 5 worst trades in NBA history. but Popopvich makes that list twice and his ego/ stupidity has contributed to 4 rings for other franchises (bulls 96-98, Raptors '19)

Chicago was the only team that would trade for Rodman after his faggotry in the 95 playoffs.

[baseline bum]

Rodman was finished mentally which is why he flamed out shortly after Chicago. He had 1 eye on life off the court even with the Bulls in the 2nd & 3rd season.

No one is saying Jordan led a team of nobodies to the Title. We all remember his 2 seasons with the Wizards. The point is Pippen was a bigger beneficiary of the relationship. I highly doubt Scottie would be anywhere near these 50 Greatest Players lists without Jordan. On the flip side MJ would still be in the GOAT discussion.

IMO Scottie made sacrifices and feels they are overlooked. But he doesn't realize his legacy is tied to the Bulls and their accomplishments. He's a 16PPG career player. Jordan's influence goes beyond even the basketball court. It might sting Pippen that he was 3rd in terms of being a Pop Icon to Rodman.

Jordan definitely deserves credit for keeping Rodman in line. No one else in the league would have but Jordan would have probably beat the living shit out of Rodman if he pulled the crap he did in San Antonio in Chicago.

[lefty]

Jordan definitely deserves credit for keeping Rodman in line. No one else in the league would have but Jordan would have probably beat the living shit out of Rodman if he pulled the crap he did in San Antonio in Chicago.
Phil Jackson also handled Rodman well tbh

[lefty]

Scottie lost the whole team after sitting out. Kerr said it. Phil said it. Grant said it. Scottie wasn't a main guy. That's why they fell apart the next year.

Not denying that
Also the Kukoc incident is not a good look
Jost to clarify I don’t think Pippen was an Alpha leader , my point is his versatility was huge for Chicago and he took a lot of pressure off Jordan

[lefty]

It did. But that team defense improvement wasn't just or even mostly because of Pippen. Some folks credit the 94 Bulls as proof that Pippen was his own superstar. I didn't view it that way at all.
As for 94-95 it wasn’t a good indication either, they had lost Horace Grant to free agency and didn’t replace him until the following season (with Worm)

[KobesAchilles]

Not denying that
Also the Kukoc incident is not a good look
Jost to clarify I don’t think Pippen was an Alpha leader , my point is his versatility was huge for Chicago and he took a lot of pressure off Jordan
I know it's completely off topic and it didn't happen, but imagine if Reggie Miller played on the Knicks instead Indiana. Ewing was a monster and deserved a second star. Imagine passing the ball out of the post and having an actual shooter getting the ball.

Does Jordan even ring?

[james evans]

Rodman was finished mentally which is why he flamed out shortly after Chicago. He had 1 eye on life off the court even with the Bulls in the 2nd & 3rd season.

No one is saying Jordan led a team of nobodies to the Title. We all remember his 2 seasons with the Wizards. The point is Pippen was a bigger beneficiary of the relationship. I highly doubt Scottie would be anywhere near these 50 Greatest Players lists without Jordan. On the flip side MJ would still be in the GOAT discussion.

IMO Scottie made sacrifices and feels they are overlooked. But he doesn't realize his legacy is tied to the Bulls and their accomplishments. He's a 16PPG career player. Jordan's influence goes beyond even the basketball court. It might sting Pippen that he was 3rd in terms of being a Pop Icon to Rodman.
He should have been finished AFTER Chicago, he was damn near 40 lol. You are aware that he was 37 years old in '98 right?

[lefty]

I know it's completely off topic and it didn't happen, but imagine if Reggie Miller played on the Knicks instead Indiana. Ewing was a monster and deserved a second star. Imagine passing the ball out of the post and having an actual shooter getting the ball.

Does Jordan even ring?

good question tbh
Reggie was a much better shooter than Starks and didn’t have a short fuse
I think they beat Chicago but it’s hypothetical so who knows.
Plus the refs were in Mike’s pocket

[james evans]

Jordan definitely deserves credit for keeping Rodman in line. No one else in the league would have but Jordan would have probably beat the living shit out of Rodman if he pulled the crap he did in San Antonio in Chicago.
Like he did Reggie Miller? hahahaha. Jordan couldn't fight. No one was afraid of him but Steve Kerr

[ambchang]

Tbh Chuck was robbed of a ring. But Chuck also had some bad luck when it came to injuries. He was injured after the 93 season a lot or KJ was injured a lot. They were a 1 year wonder due to that. The 93 team though was special and I don't think Chuck was that hard to build around.

Yeah his style of play where he pound the ball inside, back his man down, slow it down was repetitive, but a lot of successful teams played that way. The Celtics were the same style. Duncan and Shaq and Hakeem were too. He was also fantastic in the open court.

Barkley struggled with being in shape. It's why he jacked up so many 3s because he was too tired to play in the post. His defense wasn't that big an issue to me bc honestly you could hide him on a SF not named Pip. Also a lot of PFs in the East were really shitty. Just bad luck for Chuck that he had to go against Malone and Kemp.

I actually view his defence was the major concern. Duncan did it because even though they had that 4-down offence, Duncan manned the paint and had historically good defensive teams because of it.

Shaq had Kobe/Wade which were known as 2 of the top 3 SG ever. Hakeem had that crazy three point shooting team and his defence was out of this world.

The Suns were really close, I would say they would likely win in most of the years he didn't have to go up against Jordan. That Suns team would have won it all against the Knicks in 94 for sure (not sure about the Magic in 95 though).

Barkley guarding SF would be a disaster, they can just blow past him. I never really figured out why Barkley is so poor defensively. Is it because he was unengaged? Because he was out of shape? He had all the physical tools to be great defensively.

But I agree, Barkley in the open court was a sight to behold. For all the talk about Jordan (Kobe, Carter, T-Mac, Iverson, Kawhi), Magic (Lebron, Pippen), Bird (Dirk, Luka), Shaq (Wilt) being unique, there really isn't another Barkley since Barkley. A 6'5" PF who can score, rebound, run, dunk, shoot, and ball-handle like him is just unique (unless you count Clarence Weatherspoon, who couldn't do most of those things and only similar to Barkley because they are short and fat PFs).

[ambchang]

Jordan definitely deserves credit for keeping Rodman in line. No one else in the league would have but Jordan would have probably beat the living shit out of Rodman if he pulled the crap he did in San Antonio in Chicago.

:lol no

Rodman himself credited Jackson for reaching out to him. Not jordan or Pippen. He said he said daly and Jackson as father figures who cared about him and accepted him.

Jordan is a bully who can’t handle shit when he got it shoved back to him. Ask Cartwright and Kerr.

[ambchang]

Like he did Reggie Miller? hahahaha. Jordan couldn't fight. No one was afraid of him but Steve Kerr

Steve Kerr beat his ass and jordan never bothered him again. Over the years people make it out as Kerr got beat by jordan or something.

[lefty]

:lol no

Rodman himself credited Jackson for reaching out to him. Not jordan or Pippen. He said he said daly and Jackson as father figures who cared about him and accepted him.

Jordan is a bully who can’t handle shit when he got it shoved back to him. Ask Cartwright and Kerr.

[Dirks_Finale]

Like he did Reggie Miller? hahahaha. Jordan couldn't fight. No one was afraid of him but Steve Kerr

Well, he never got his azzz beat by Chris Childs like Kobe did :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

Chicago was the only team that would trade for Rodman after his faggotry in the 95 playoffs.

They landed Will Perdue in return. You have to do better than that for a player of Rodman's caliber. You just have to. :lol

[baseline bum]

They landed Will Perdue in return. You have to do better than that for a player of Rodman's caliber. You just have to. :lol

Rodman might as well have been Royce White as far as NBA GMs were concerned after the crap he pulled in the 1995 WCF. Perdue from Chicago was the only offer any team made for Rodman, and they probably only offered him because Jordan hated Perdue. He used to call him Will Vanderbilt since he didn't think Perdue should share a name with a decent college program. :lol

[Isitjustme?]

Phil Jackson also handled Rodman well tbh

:lol Lefty always there the minute anyone says anything even remotely positive about Jordan with a "yeah, but.." Never seen a person so brain fucked by an athlete :lol

[Dirks_Finale]

:lol Lefty always there the minute anyone says anything even remotely positive about Jordan with a "yeah, but.." Never seen a person so brain fucked by an athlete :lol

This is what Jordan did to an entire generation of Ewing/Barkley/Malone/Miller fans. :lol

[lefty]

:lol Lefty always there the minute anyone says anything even remotely positive about Jordan with a "yeah, but.." Never seen a person so brain fucked by an athlete :lol

:lol apparently Jordan’s dick is still in your mouth because it’s a well known fact it was Phil who handled Rodman and not Jordan

[lefty]

This is what Jordan did to an entire generation of Ewing/Barkley/Malone/Miller fans. :lol

:lol thinking a Spurs fan would be rooting for those guys, great logic, but I guess that’s what you did since the Mavs were one of the worst teams in the league
:lol vivre par procuration

[Killakobe81]

Well, he never got his azzz beat by Chris Childs like Kobe did :lol

Neither could fight (MJ Kobe or Bron) … doubt you can either if a two piece (really just one clean) counts to you as getting someone’s ass beat. Child’s won the encounter but let’s not exaggerate.

[ambchang]

Neither could fight (MJ Kobe or Bron) … doubt you can either if a two piece (really just one clean) counts to you as getting someone’s ass beat. Child’s won the encounter but let’s not exaggerate.

Did Katie one piece or two piece Kobe. I don’t remember the details.