COMMENTARY: What We REALLY Learned from Katrina

[Kori Ellis]

COMMENTARY: What We REALLY Learned from Katrina
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C5385FCA-F2C1-4484-9F04-260B37108B97


by Jim Forsyth, WOAI Newsradio

We all saw the images of the poorest residents of New Orleans left helpless during Hurricane Katrina, and we were all told to think about the lessons we learned during that storm. Here’s one lesson I learned: Don’t be poor.

I know that sounds flippant, but it isn’t. In fact, James Madison University researchers have come up with almost a guarantee that you won’t be poor in America. If you do the following four things, there is more than a 95% chance you will not live in poverty:

1) Attend High School, Pay Attention, and Graduate. You notice, they didn’t say you have to do well in high school, just don't drop out. They didn’t say you have to attend Harvard, or even attend college at all. They didn’t say you have to make the honor roll, be on the football team, or in the band. Just be furniture. Show up and graduate.

2) Don’t Engage in Criminal Activity. There is perhaps no more widespread and pernicious urban legend in America than the myth of the wealthy criminal, especially the myth of the wealthy drug dealer, hanging around the projects with all his bling, treating people with honest jobs as suckers. However, as economist Steven Levitt points out in his wonderful book “Freakonomics,” it’s the drug dealer who is the sucker. The overwhelming majority of drug dealers make far less than the minimum wage, with the added disincentive of being potentially killed or arrested. And of those handful who do manage to make real money in the drug trade, most don’t succeed using the ‘skills’ they grunt about on rap videos, but employing many of the same traits which would have probably made them successful in legitimate business. In thirty years as a reporter, I have been inside the homes of countless criminals, and I have yet to see one who lives as well as I do.

3) Take ANY Job. Any employment manager will tell you that the biggest challenge is not finding people with skills, it’s finding people who understand that 9AM isn't the same as 9:30, and “I don’t feel like it” or "I'm tired" isn’t a suitable excuse to miss work. And, as the father of a 16 year old, I find it’s amazing how many jobs teenagers feel are ‘beneath’ them. No, I’m not making this up.

4) Don’t Have Children Before You’re Married, and Don’t Get Married Until You’re At Least 21. Twenty years ago, this was a handicap for women only, now it will drag down everybody. You’ve come a long way, dude.

Nothing in there about the color of your skin, what your daddy does for a living, whether you go to, in the trendy Texas political parlance, a 'high wealth' school, or, in former Senator Tom Daschle’s ludicrous phrase, whether you ‘won life’s lottery.’ In fact, all of the things on this list are voluntary activities which individuals themselves control. As Judge Tom Rickhoff, one of the most astute observers of human nature in this city, once told me, “most people are poor because they made bad choices.”

Now, following these four rules won’ make you wealthy, far from it, but it will go a long ways toward insuring that when the Category Five comes toward you, you will control your own fate, and won’t be helplessly begging for rescue from a rooftop, or tossed to the wolves in the Superdome.

After that, hard work, initiative, advanced skills or education, and yes, a certain amount of good luck does begin to come into play. As the vastly under-appreciated Midwestern humorist Max Schulman, the creator of Dobie Gillis, once replied when asked the secret to success, ”Get rich. Then sleep ‘til noon and screw ‘em all.”

[Nbadan]

I've posted this before, but I guess it bears repeating...


..Which brings us to the other big lie told about the poor in New Orleans: one that has yet to be addressed in the media, despite how easily it can be disproved by a mere five minutes worth of research. It is one repeated daily for the past eight weeks by conservative talk show hosts and columnists, and one to which I am exposed many times a day in my email inbox, thanks to the efforts of right wing louts without the seeming desire to do their homework. Namely, it is the argument that the reason 130,000 poor black folks were unable to escape the flooding was because they had grown dependent on the government to save them, thanks to the "welfare state," and that was why they lacked the money and cars to get out before disaster struck.

In other words, liberal social policy had rendered the black poor unable or unwilling to work, content to collect a government check, and thus, had made them incapable of saving themselves. This lie -- and it is just that, not an exaggeration or simplification or overstatement, but a flat-out falsehood -- has been parroted by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, S[ean] Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and Charles Murray (of "Bell Curve" fame), not to mention such viciously self-loathing black conservatives as Star Parker, John McWhorter and the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, all despite the lack of evidence to sustain it, and the amazing amount of evidence, both contemporary and historical, to refute it.

But of course the media, having long ago decided not to challenge the mainstream public's view of folks on welfare -- and indeed to collaborate with the framing of such persons by politicians of both major parties -- has done nothing to set the record straight, suggesting either that they are incredibly inept at research, or just as incredibly craven in their attitudes towards the poorest of this nation's citizens.

But the facts, however unsettling they may be for conservative mythmakers, are clear.

To begin with, as of 2004, according to the Census Bureau, there were only 4600 households in all of New Orleans receiving cash welfare from the nation's principal aid program, TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, formerly Aid to Families With Dependent Children, or AFDC). That is not a misprint: 4600 out of a total of 130,000 households in the black community alone. Which means that even if every welfare receiving household in Orleans Parish had been black (which was not in fact the case), this would have represented only a little more than four percent of black households in the city.

According to the same Census data, the average household size in a welfare receiving family in New Orleans is the same as the citywide average for non-recipients: roughly 3.5 persons. So the number of individuals receiving welfare in New Orleans, by the time of Katrina would have been about 16,000.

Thus, even if we assume that all of the 130,000 persons left behind were poor, and that no persons receiving welfare managed to escape before the flooding with friends or family, this would mean that at most, perhaps twelve percent of the persons left behind (and whose faces we may have been seeing on national TV) would have been welfare recipients at all, let alone persons who had been rendered dependent on such benefits for long periods of time.

And speaking of dependence, or the notion that the city's welfare recipients had grown content to sit back and collect government checks instead of doing for self, this hardly seems likely when you consider that the average annual income received from TANF, for those small numbers actually getting any such benefits at all, was only a little more than $2,800 per year, in New Orleans prior to the catastrophe.

Indeed, such paltry amounts explain why most of the poor in New Orleans, far from being happy to receive so-called handouts, work whenever they can find steady employment, which admittedly, is not often the case.

...

[F]olks in this community were almost nine times more likely to earn their pay than to receive government benefits. Forty percent of workers from the community worked full-time, and the average commute time for Ninth Ward workers was over 45 minutes each day, suggesting that the work ethic was quite common to the folks who lived there, irrespective of commonly held and utterly false stereotypes.

Wise offers additional evidence that undercuts these commonly believed myths. He then moves on to the subject of public housing developments. It is here that Wise provides critical facts that are barely known. In the wake of Katrina, many commentators of the Charles Murray kind would have had us believe that public housing is the root of all evil. Once again, this is a simple story -- and a false one.

In fact, the reality, including the relevant history, is much more complex:

Likewise, in the mid-90s, several public housing developments participated in a national Jobs Program, funded by the Annie B. Casey Foundation: a successful effort that matched low-income black residents with businesses looking for employees. In the former St. Thomas development -- the first public housing "project" funded by the federal government under the Roosevelt Administration -- residents had started their own coffee shop and bookstore, and had created innovative teen pregnancy prevention and safe sex initiatives.

When St. Thomas was torn down a few years ago, residents were told there would be mixed-use economic development in its place, and although they mourned for the loss of their neighborhood, many looked forward to participating actively in the economic lifeblood of the community. Then the city reneged on its promises and offered the land to Wal-Mart, which then placed a superstore on the property--the very store whose gun supply was looted during the flooding (an ironic turn of events if ever there was one). Poor folks wanted economic opportunity and jobs; the city's elite (black and white alike) gave them a gun supply shop.

Bottom line: the stereotype of poor blacks in New Orleans (and elsewhere) as lazy and dependent on government is false. ...

Arthur Silbar, Power Of Narrative (http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2005/10/myths-of-new-orleans-poor-bad-blacks.html)

:hat

[ChumpDumper]

I thought it was "Don't live below sea level."

[SA210]

I learned that just a couple of months after Katrina, that people have already stopped caring about poverty. It's not so much in the news anymore, so it's not important.

[spurster]

It's more important to cut taxes for the wealthy and the upper middle class. Oh, yes, and cut programs for the poor, that will show them.

[bigzak25]

it's important for people realize that they have to depend on themselves 1st, last, and foremost.

and it's also important to remember to get the fuck out of the way when they say a mutha of a hurricane is bearing down...

[George W. Bush]

Who is this Katrina you guys talkin bout?

She sounds like a real hellcat.

[SA210]

it's important for people realize that they have to depend on themselves 1st, last, and foremost.

and it's also important to remember to get the fuck out of the way when they say a mutha of a hurricane is bearing down...
:rolleyes

[gtownspur]

^People need to start taking accountability. THe president ordered a mandatory evacuation for NO 3 days before landfall. It was the people who didnt have transportation because they couldnt afford it even though they had jobs because they made stupid decicions in having their priorities straight. If they had they're priorities straight, they would of bought a junky old car instead of an Xbox and a flat panel in their federaly subsidized home. I have heard of many peoples account of how a good portion of the people who were evacuees were ungrateful of the help they recieved in houston texas. THey would bitch about the quality of the food, and they would complain after already recieving a 2000 dollar debit card about the govt's ineptness to treat them like kings. In austin, one Cable tv salesman told me off how some of the evacuees were complaining about their installation of their flat panel tv they bought from the FEMA issued debit cards.

If people like NBaDan and the rest think that people don't take advantage of charity by not helping themselves alwhile playing the guilt card to perfection, then they need to return their limited gold collection "Little House on the Prarie" DVD and wake up. GO to the projects and tell me that many of those people don't have their priorities straight.

[Nbadan]

THe president ordered a mandatory evacuation for NO 3 days before landfall.

So did Governor Blanco, and the Mayor of New Orleans. FEMA was supposed to step in and 'assist' in coordinating Federal, State and local emergency evacuation efforts at this point. Those efforts, obviously, fell well short of expectations. Ex-FEMA head Michael Brown now runs his own emergency planning company.

[Nbadan]

If people like NBaDan and the rest think that people don't take advantage of charity by not helping themselves alwhile playing the guilt card to perfection, then they need to return their limited gold collection "Little House on the Prarie" DVD and wake up. GO to the projects and tell me that many of those people don't have their priorities straight

Eh, the people who couldn't afford to evacuate from New Orleans weren't any different than thousands of hard-working San Antonio residents who live from paycheck to paycheck. Nationally, the savings rate, not including mutual fund contributions, has gone into negative numbers. This implies that there are millions of people, thousands of San Antonians, who are living off their credit cards. Payday in New Orleans was on Friday, the hurricane hit Friday.

[gtownspur]

^THe federal govt could not intervene without blanco's permission, even Mayor Ray Nagin got after Blanco for refusing to use the state guard and not allowing FeMa to take over. According to the Texas National Guard, THe Texas Guard was there before the Lousiana branch because of Blanco's stupidity. THe TExas Guard and the national Guard aswell as as the COast Guard where already on the scene that Monday to help out. It was the ineptitude of the State and lOcal govt. Had they had their act together, there wouldnt of been this bad of tragedy. There's no excuse for the mayor not busing out their poor.

[gtownspur]

Eh, the people who couldn't afford to evacuate from New Orleans weren't any different than thousands of hard-working San Antonio residents who live from paycheck to paycheck. Nationally, the savings rate, not including mutual fund contributions, has gone into negative numbers. This implies that there are millions of people, thousands of San Antonians, who are living off their credit cards. Payday in New Orleans was on Friday, the hurricane hit Friday.
Your delusional if you think that that payday the people would of used their meager 350 dollar paycheck to buy a car off the lot.:lmao

Please stop using dumb excuses. People who live paycheck to paycheck either have a car or no somebody who does. It's their probolem they were dependent on the govt to be their final option. Even at that, Mayor Ray nagin had the power to bus them out. NO is not orlando florida or tampa bay. They knew they were in a ditch and that evacuation after the flooding would break down communications and everything else.

[Nbadan]

THe federal govt could not intervene without blanco's permission, even Mayor Ray Nagin got after Blanco for refusing to use the state guard and not allowing FeMa to take over

What the fuck? FEMA was on the ground in New Orleans. It was their plan to put those people in the Superdome. They told everyone to bring enough food and water for their families for two days, but many people didn't, and when the power failed, so did the toilets.

[Nbadan]

Your delusional if you think that that payday the people would of used their meager 350 dollar paycheck to buy a car off the lot

That's not what I said. Look, people were facing getting a ride from a strangers, or riding Gray-hound. The trains stopped in the area two days before the hurricane hit, so these claims that Amtrak offered to evacuate people from NO were completely bogus. For those lucky enough to find a ride out of town, they didn't know where they would wind up, how they would survive if and when they got there, nor if they could even afford to ever come back again. Shit, with no bread in your pocket, you might as well be dead.

[gtownspur]

It wasn't their responsibility to ship people out. You have selective hearing. It was Ray Nagin himself who instructed everyone with his fucking words that they should go to the superdome. Your poinltess to argue with. According to you, FEMA, a governmental agency, overrides state govt and local govt at their own whim without approval. Your delusional, Mike Brown has no marshall law powers. Only the military and Law enforcement do.You obviously have no conscience to your beliefs. You'll believe anything to damage Bush. If there was an article saying that Barbara and jenna were seducing little 4 year old boys into sex; you johnny marzetti, boutons, and all the nuts would demand an immediate independent investigation without thinking whether any of you would be duped by a spoof article.

[gtownspur]

That's not what I said. Look, people were facing getting a ride from a strangers, or riding Gray-hound. The trains stopped in the area two days before the hurricane hit, so these claims that Amtrak offered to evacuate people from NO were completely bogus. For those lucky enough to find a ride out of town, they didn't know where they would wind up, how they would survive if and when they got there, nor if they could even afford to ever come back again. Shit, with no bread in your pocket, you might as well be dead.

If there would of been a free hip hop concert or a juneteenth parade, i guarantee you 70% percent of those stranded would of found a ride, people just didnt take the matter seriously. IF there would of been elections held, i guarandamntee you ray nagin and Blanco would of found bus drivers.

[Nbadan]

If there would of been a free hip hop concert or a juneteenth parade, i guarantee you 70% percent of those stranded would of found a ride, people just didnt take the matter seriously. IF there would of been elections held, i guarandamntee you ray nagin and Blanco would of found bus drivers.

:lmao

This post has got to go into the 'best quotes of gtownspurs' thread.

[Nbadan]

It was Ray Nagin himself who instructed everyone with his fucking words that they should go to the superdome.

Yes it was, but the emergency plan was always to put people in the Superdome. It was FEMA's responsibility to get them out after two days.

[SA210]

GO to the projects and tell me that many of those people don't have their priorities straight.

I don't need to go to the projects as if I've never been there before. Maybe you just pass by and judge them or maybe just go on with what the stereotype is.

I grew up in the projects and I do alot of non profit work for people in the projects today. You wanna know the real story about people who live in the projects, have some guts to keep an open mind and really know who alot of these ppl really are. If you did that, you would understand that ALL of them shouldn't be punished for the bad ones.

You obviously have this stereotype in your head and you refuse to let it go. Say what you want about who's responsibilty it was or who wasn't responsible. You obviously don't know what it's like to be poor and how sometimes ppls priortities aren't why they are poor. Sometimes they get into a circumstance they can't help. I hope you never get into a circumstance you can't help.

But there are people like you, and it's sad. People that think,"Hmmm, why can't those poor people just get there families and pack there Lexus and get the hell outa there, or get a plane and get to the hotel? :rolleyes

I wish it were that simple. But you know what, some people, some elderly for instance who were ill or bed ridden, single parents with no help, and poor ppl don't always have all the options u may have. No matter how you try and paint the picture. And to defend the other poster about pay day, if you knew anything about being poor you would know what a difference one payday check could make when it came to this circumstance.

So some people used there debit cards for plasma screens, ppl looted and stole leaking damaged radios. What else can you come up with to justify why ALL these ppl got what they deserved? Poor people ARE people. It's everyones responsibility to help anyway they can. How selfish to say the things that you say. Actually, it's just plain sad. I say these things because I care, I really care about people. You say so many things from hate.

Sad.

[Mr. Defense]

So did Governor Blanco, and the Mayor of New Orleans. FEMA was supposed to step in and 'assist' in coordinating Federal, State and local emergency evacuation efforts at this point. Those efforts, obviously, fell well short of expectations. Ex-FEMA head Michael Brown now runs his own emergency planning company.



i'm gonna have to call bullshit on the assistance.

if the worst case person had just been told they won the lottery and had to get to anycity usa to collect?

their ass would have been crawling, hitchhiking, whatever the fuck it took.

so spare the drama.

Cowards make excuses. Men and Women come up with solutions.

[101A]

Kori,

The initial article posted was enlightening.

Is James Madison University a hotbead of radical right-wing nuts? I looked at their homepage, and there were absolutely NO swastikas! Go figure.

The rest of the thread was ridiculous

[gtownspur]

I don't need to go to the projects as if I've never been there before. Maybe you just pass by and judge them or maybe just go on with what the stereotype is.

I grew up in the projects and I do alot of non profit work for people in the projects today. You wanna know the real story about people who live in the projects, have some guts to keep an open mind and really know who alot of these ppl really are. If you did that, you would understand that ALL of them shouldn't be punished for the bad ones.

You obviously have this stereotype in your head and you refuse to let it go. Say what you want about who's responsibilty it was or who wasn't responsible. You obviously don't know what it's like to be poor and how sometimes ppls priortities aren't why they are poor. Sometimes they get into a circumstance they can't help. I hope you never get into a circumstance you can't help.

But there are people like you, and it's sad. People that think,"Hmmm, why can't those poor people just get there families and pack there Lexus and get the hell outa there, or get a plane and get to the hotel? :rolleyes

I wish it were that simple. But you know what, some people, some elderly for instance who were ill or bed ridden, single parents with no help, and poor ppl don't always have all the options u may have. No matter how you try and paint the picture. And to defend the other poster about pay day, if you knew anything about being poor you would know what a difference one payday check could make when it came to this circumstance.

So some people used there debit cards for plasma screens, ppl looted and stole leaking damaged radios. What else can you come up with to justify why ALL these ppl got what they deserved? Poor people ARE people. It's everyones responsibility to help anyway they can. How selfish to say the things that you say. Actually, it's just plain sad. I say these things because I care, I really care about people. You say so many things from hate.

Sad.


For all your high horse riding and pontificating, where's your Nobel Peace Prize?

You're a fool for one to think I don't know personally of any people who are in poverty. My immediate family are all immigrants from mexico. For years alot of them struggled to rise above Govt housing and food stamps. My mom worked full time for a cleaners as a seamstress and tailor, my dad worked all his life between barely over minimum wage jobs. Without formal education, my parents managed to reign in on their expenses and pay off their first home which they now rent out, and all their vehicles. With the exception of the current house they live in, they owe no expenses and own everything they possess and some land off the outskirts of the city. We were always last in our families to have the latest technologies, or fads. Yet we managed to do well by being conservative in spending and focusing on what was important to purchase. Many of my relatives, God bless them, didnt have any discipline with their checkbooks. Many of them had better income than my parents and yet they are still struggling to pay off their homes and cars. Their kids always had better shoes and clothes than my siblings, and they were usually the first to have nintendos and other cool luxury items. But their money just went towards the wrong things and they were always living in borderline poverty to straight poverty becuase of their parents misuse of money.

My point is that as long as people are able bodied to get a job, they will do fine. Money does not solve poverty. Just look at the lottery winners who were in poverty before they hit the jackpot to return back to their previous condition in 8 years. Not all people can succeed in this world. But if one can walk and count, theres nothing stopping them from being free from poverty in this country.

[SA210]

For all your high horse riding and pontificating, where's your Nobel Peace Prize?

You're a fool for one to think I don't know personally of any people who are in poverty. My immediate family are all immigrants from mexico. For years alot of them struggled to rise above Govt housing and food stamps. My mom worked full time for a cleaners as a seamstress and tailor, my dad worked all his life between barely over minimum wage jobs. Without formal education, my parents managed to reign in on their expenses and pay off their first home which they now rent out, and all their vehicles. With the exception of the current house they live in, they owe no expenses and own everything they possess and some land off the outskirts of the city. We were always last in our families to have the latest technologies, or fads. Yet we managed to do well by being conservative in spending and focusing on what was important to purchase. Many of my relatives, God bless them, didnt have any discipline with their checkbooks. Many of them had better income than my parents and yet they are still struggling to pay off their homes and cars. Their kids always had better shoes and clothes than my siblings, and they were usually the first to have nintendos and other cool luxury items. But their money just went towards the wrong things and they were always living in borderline poverty to straight poverty becuase of their parents misuse of money.

My point is that as long as people are able bodied to get a job, they will do fine. Money does not solve poverty. Just look at the lottery winners who were in poverty before they hit the jackpot to return back to their previous condition in 8 years. Not all people can succeed in this world. But if one can walk and count, theres nothing stopping them from being free from poverty in this country.No need for a nobel prize, I certainly love people. That's just me, no need for you to insult me for it. I can't help but want to make a difference.

Now you are making a good point, but alot of people have bad situations, some parents aren't even educated enough to show their kids in what path to go, because they themselves were never taught any better. It's not the kids fault entirely when they grew up a certain way. And that's just one example. Not everyone has both a mother and a father. And some ppl have only a mother or only a father, but are not born to it in poverty. So someone born to an uneducated single parent in the projects will not have or even see the same advantages. They need help and guidance.

It's hard enough for a single parent who isn't on public assistance of any sort, myself included to make a living. Individual stories of ppl in poverty count for something, and those individual stories add up to a bigger picture. On the other end, the bad screw it up for the good ones on assistance, and I don't think they should suffer for it, whether it be cuts in assistance or just stereotypical garbage.

We probably all know someone who is taking advantage of the system, but alot aren't. In my civil litigation against SAHA (San Antonio Housing Authority) and HUD to save Victoria Courts, we found that monies granted to SAHA for drug elimination, crime, and other issues for their developments were misused for new cars and vacations to Hawaii. There is alot of blame to go around whether it be Democrats, Republicans or even just the regular Joe who doesn't care about the issue. I don't think that because many abuse the system, that we should just forget that poverty is a problem. I know first hand what it's like to not have a home, be evicted or going hungry.

When you go through that and see others go through that, and you actually know why some of these people really are in those situations, ppl would understand.

For someone to know this and still persecute poor ppl just better explains what's actually going on in their own heart.

And I hear critism alot about, "those ppl have money when the ice cream man comes around, or those ppl have a dvd player"...:rolleyes

I guess because they are poor, their kids shouldn't watch TV, I guess their kids shouldn't be treated to an ice cream, I guess they shouldn't have cars to get to "work" because they should be punished for being poor. As long as they get food stamps and live in public housing, they should all live in "time out" I guess.

No, they shouldn't be treated this way. People don't understand that a good percentage in public housing actually do work, as much as many ppl might not want to believe it.

People in housing have to pay 30% of their income for rent. 30% of their income is alot to them. 30% is just about what you or I would pay to get into an apartment today. You have to make 3x's the rent. So they have to pay about 1/3 of their income. So when you get a single mother trying to work, taking the bus and managing to work out how to have her kid taken to school, picked up from school, daycare, and alot of other expenses, and then gets paid a ridicuolous wage and gets home after working just as hard as you or me, she gets paid nothing and noone there to help her find better avenues, because all that's on her mind is to keep that roof over her kids head and pay that 30% for rent and figure out how they are going to do it tomorrow.

On top of that, when she goes outside her area, she gets insulted by ppl for taking adavantage of the system and being a deadbeat. Now there is the confidence she needs.

But it's Christmas time now, the holidays, usually the time of year that the homeless are rediscovered and the time of year that alot of ppl actaully care about them, only because it's the holidays. Wow, come January it's back to normal. Homeless and poor ppl, and anyone on public assistance are lazy, live off of my tax dollars, they use drugs, kill, rape, and they bring down our property values. Knock down their homes, knock all the projects down, move em out, MOVE THEM ALL OUT, relocate them, put them elswhere,

But not in "my" backyard.:rolleyes

Merry Christmas.

[Useruser666]

Good article Kori. As for many of the responses, point missed.

[101A]

Good article Kori. As for many of the responses, point missed.


To reiterate:

In this country there is a better than 95% chance you WILL NOT BE POOR if you do the following:

1. Graduate High School.
2. Don't get pregnant or married before you are 21.
3. Don't commit crimes.
4. Have a job.

This is based on a research study which from all appearances is unbiased.

I certainly don't want to judge the poor in this country, nor do I want to gloss over the extent of their plight. I do wonder, however, if they know any of this. Are they told that statistically there is a pretty good chance that it will turn our allright if they just follow the simple instructions above? Or are they told that they don't stand a chance of "making it" without help, that there is nothing they can do, that they are being held down?

What if the poor people in this country were let in on the secret that this study reveals?

Hey, NBADAN, you like conspiracies. This might be the biggest one of all. Who started it? (Here's a hint: you already suspect him of other conspiratorial misdeeds). Who stands to gain the most by it? Why are the media such willing patsies (or are they just ignorant)?

Pretty much dispels alot of conventional wisdom spouted on this board and throughout society.

Would anybody wish to discuss THAT?

[SA210]

^^^ People need to care enough to educate those ppl and in doing so, not put them down with insults. You are right about alot of those things about working, no crime and stuff like that. But who's to guide them and actually care? Not many ppl care to. I'm one that does care.

[101A]

(most) Family's care
Some strangers care
Churches Care
I care

The government could give a damn.

[2centsworth]

^^^ People need to care enough to educate those ppl and in doing so, not put them down with insults. You are right about alot of those things about working, no crime and stuff like that. But who's to guide them and actually care? Not many ppl care to. I'm one that does care.
I know those people are so dumb and they need smart people like us to care for them. Very similar to my pet.

[SA210]

I know those people are so dumb and they need smart people like us to care for them. Very similar to my pet.
:rolleyes

[RandomGuy]

I think it is a *bit* of an oversimplification of a complex problem.

We do our nation's children a lot of injustices when we just wave our arms and say, "Well kid, I'm sorry your parents make bad decisions, but because I blame them for it, I'm not going to spend my tax dollars to let you have a better shot at things than they did."

Yes, people make bad decisions all the time. The tragedy in all this is that the "blame the poor" meme makes it easier to turn your backs on them when they really do need help, and when helping them makes a difference for their children.

Spending money on the much reviled "entitlement" programs like WIC or Medicaid are constantly assulted as encouraging dependence and waste, but when it comes down to it, I think the long term costs of NOT giving poor parents the chance to feed their kids properly or take them to see doctors for less expensive preventive treatments are much higher.

For all the parents who make "bad" decisions there are plenty who make "good" decisions and struggle. THOSE are the swimmers we have life preservers for. Some waste and fraud will be had from ANY system, but as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable.

[101A]

^^^ I don't think the study intended to make a commentary about the welfare state. It simply stated a finding about how to not be poor.

I believe there is a certain power base in our society (on both the left and the right, frankly), that is served by the exploitation of that class.

One side generates support by speaking of helping the downtrodden, the other side clambers on about the freeloaders in society dragging us all down.

I'm not saying it is a global belief or understanding, just saying there are certain factions on each side who use the situation to their political benefit.

[101A]

Also, I don't see it as a "blame the poor" mentality.

I see it as a "hope for the poor" study.

It shows that limited wealth, and a brighter future, is not as elusive as some might have them believe.

[SA210]

I think it is a *bit* of an oversimplification of a complex problem.

We do our nation's children a lot of injustices when we just wave our arms and say, "Well kid, I'm sorry your parents make bad decisions, but because I blame them for it, I'm not going to spend my tax dollars to let you have a better shot at things than they did."

Yes, people make bad decisions all the time. The tragedy in all this is that the "blame the poor" meme makes it easier to turn your backs on them when they really do need help, and when helping them makes a difference for their children.

Spending money on the much reviled "entitlement" programs like WIC or Medicaid are constantly assulted as encouraging dependence and waste, but when it comes down to it, I think the long term costs of NOT giving poor parents the chance to feed their kids properly or take them to see doctors for less expensive preventive treatments are much higher.

For all the parents who make "bad" decisions there are plenty who make "good" decisions and struggle. THOSE are the swimmers we have life preservers for. Some waste and fraud will be had from ANY system, but as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable.
Great post. :tu

[boutons]

"as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable."

Watch it, you sound like a humanistic European/Canadian, where social/cultural solidarity based on the admission that the lower edge of societies will ALWAYS be there, always has been, provides safety nets and has promoted medical care to a univeral right.

There's plenty of fraud, corruption, waste, cheating in EVERY govt program, even to the agricultaral and industrial sectors but you don't hear Repugs cutting farm subsidies, or corporate welfare programs, or tighter control of military contracting.

All the Repubs brought table these 5 years is all-out class warfare, with dubya looking after, extremely aggressively, only the very best-off Americans and corps.

[101A]

There's plenty of fraud, corruption, waste, cheating in EVERY govt program, even to the agricultaral and industrial sectors but you don't hear Repugs cutting farm subsidies, or corporate welfare programs, or tighter control of military contracting.



I agree with all of that. See, we can reach common ground.

W's tax breaks were for every single person that paid income taxes, more if you sold a house (less than $500,000) or had children (and made less than the cutoff). There was still plenty of "progressivity" in there.

Unfortunately, he then signed the spending bills which drove us deeper into debt. The government is incompetent. I'm glad they don't have any more of my money.

[gtownspur]

I think it is a *bit* of an oversimplification of a complex problem.

We do our nation's children a lot of injustices when we just wave our arms and say, "Well kid, I'm sorry your parents make bad decisions, but because I blame them for it, I'm not going to spend my tax dollars to let you have a better shot at things than they did."

Yes, people make bad decisions all the time. The tragedy in all this is that the "blame the poor" meme makes it easier to turn your backs on them when they really do need help, and when helping them makes a difference for their children.

Spending money on the much reviled "entitlement" programs like WIC or Medicaid are constantly assulted as encouraging dependence and waste, but when it comes down to it, I think the long term costs of NOT giving poor parents the chance to feed their kids properly or take them to see doctors for less expensive preventive treatments are much higher.

For all the parents who make "bad" decisions there are plenty who make "good" decisions and struggle. THOSE are the swimmers we have life preservers for. Some waste and fraud will be had from ANY system, but as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable.

I have some of my points to point out about your response.

1.You pointed out "we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater" argument on why we shouldn't cut and do away with social programs. That even though there is freeloading going around, there is a few who do use it properly. Nevertheless you and your lefty pals employ the same rhetoric to attack capital punishment.

2.Nobody has called for the withdrawal of medicare and welfare on this thread. So spare the guilt trip. What everyones point is, is that the mental condition and reliance of government for sustenance, lead to the tragedy in New Orleans. You tell me. If a tidal wave was about to come your way; would you insist on the federal govt to help you out, or would you take all measures to protect your life and flee on your own? Man, according to written history of the past two milleniums have relied on themselves for sustenance and safety. Only now does man use his recources on pleasures and vices, instead of builiding his own security for which each man is responsible. Barring children, Men and able women should always base their safety on themselves first and govt last after GOd and family. Children are the responsibility of man and woman. If both are not equipped with the necessary tools to protect their own child, then they by volition, should abstain from bringing in a doomed creature to this world. THe welfare program is horrible at this.In effect, the states incentives for bearing fatherless children have lead to the decline in societies sense of individuality and sustenance.

3.The title of the commentary was "what we learned from Katrina", not "what we regretted in helping the poor of Katrina". No one on this board wants to see the evacuees starve to death. Nevertheless we want to help them out as much as possible. What the author of the commentary and the supporters in this thread want is first and foremost to relieve their pain and suffering. After we have helped their situation, we don't want to revert them back to the same welfare state that was to blame for this tragedie. We want our fellow americans to learn from this experience and help themselves. To put to you easily. If you want to help the poor, you just don't give them fish, you teach them to fish.

4. People like you who demonize reformers for slashing program growths are the poor's worst offender. I give you credit for seeing fault in the system, but all you want to do is throw money at it. Money does not lift people from poverty, reformed minds do. If you want to reform the system to actually help out the poor, one needs to cut incentives that only encourage people to stay on the program rather than better themselves. I know of many people who opt for a spouse to stay unemployed becuase doing so will keep them on the gravy train. Many women out there are having illegitimate children for the sole purpose of recieving money from the government. THe system is nothing more than a liscense to live without consequences. Yes we need to fill the empty bellies and clothed the naked immediately. I appluad charity. But one needs to provide the right aid to eliminate the poverty instead of amplifying it.

[ChumpDumper]

Nevertheless you and your lefty pals employ the same rhetoric to attack capital punishment.I would say a welfare program mistake is reversible.

[gtownspur]

"as a moral society, letting EVERYBODY drown because a some will abuse the lifepreservers is unconsciounable."

Watch it, you sound like a humanistic European/Canadian, where social/cultural solidarity based on the admission that the lower edge of societies will ALWAYS be there, always has been, provides safety nets and has promoted medical care to a univeral right.

There's plenty of fraud, corruption, waste, cheating in EVERY govt program, even to the agricultaral and industrial sectors but you don't hear Repugs cutting farm subsidies, or corporate welfare programs, or tighter control of military contracting.

All the Repubs brought table these 5 years is all-out class warfare, with dubya looking after, extremely aggressively, only the very best-off Americans and corps.

I agree with half of your post!
The problem with your viewpoint in contrast to all other viewpoints is this, Human depravity starts when one moves up the income braket. All other more credible philosopies acknowledge that Depravity is inherit in all of us, no matter what income they posses.

To you, all that is evil in the world is caused by evil country club republicans and christian conservatives. It wasn't satan of religous lore, freuds ego and id, or man's imperfect nature that sprung evil. According to you in a figurative sense, it was Halliburton who seduced eve into eating the apple and not the serpent. Your warped mentality that the rich are the root of all our problems borders on insanity. You seem to neglect any level of responsibilty existing in ourselves. We are powerless to our very own volition because the rich control our resources according to you.

What's sad is that if you were inside the towers on 911 you would of been more frightened even then of your chrisian conservative coworker's Mexican bakery's virgin mary calendar than the boeing flying into your office. When 2000 people died on that fateful day, many called for action against the terrorsit and their idealogy. You and your sympathizers, called for the US and it's conservative population to be removed from any say so in the political process.

In your twisted world; Osama bin Laden hunts down innocents because Susie homemaker voted republican and bakes muffins for the bible study class, People are carbombed because Pat Robertson called for the assasination of Hugo Chavez and there happens to be a Zionist prescence in the ME known as Israel, Zarqawi idiotically bombed the Jordanian Hotels because he was duped by Karl Rove, And if OBL dies of the bird flu by rare chance, it was because of Karl Rove and the reintroduction of Social Security reform inorder to take away the news coverage from VietRaq.

[gtownspur]

I would say a welfare program mistake is reversible.

So what? How's that? You mean to tell me that the government would ask for the extra money it gave to it's recipients back? If someone cheats the program, or the goverment mishandles the program, then the only way to fix it would be to not do it again. Once it's been done, it's done with. Same with Capital Punishment. Once the person was found innocent, we should demand more qualifiers to send people to death row and make it harder. You don't abolish either one of them.

[ChumpDumper]

So what? How's that? You mean to tell me that the government would ask for the extra money it gave to it's recipients back? If someone cheats the program, or the goverment mishandles the program, then the only way to fix it would be to not do it again. Once it's been done, it's done with.No one's dead with the welfare thing though.

[SA210]

I agree with half of your post!
The problem with your viewpoint in contrast to all other viewpoints is this, Human depravity starts when one moves up the income braket. All other more credible philosopies acknowledge that Depravity is inherit in all of us, no matter what income they posses.

To you, all that is evil in the world is caused by evil country club republicans and christian conservatives. It wasn't satan of religous lore, freuds ego and id, or man's imperfect nature that sprung evil. According to you in a figurative sense, it was Halliburton who seduced eve into eating the apple and not the serpent. Your warped mentality that the rich are the root of all our problems borders on insanity. You seem to neglect any level of responsibilty existing in ourselves. We are powerless to our very own volition because the rich control our resources according to you.

What's sad is that if you were inside the towers on 911 you would of been more frightened even then of your chrisian conservative coworker's Mexican bakery's virgin mary calendar than the boeing flying into your office. When 2000 people died on that fateful day, many called for action against the terrorsit and their idealogy. You and your sympathizers, called for the US and it's conservative population to be removed from any say so in the political process.

In your twisted world; Osama bin Laden hunts down innocents because Susie homemaker voted republican and bakes muffins for the bible study class, People are carbombed because Pat Robertson called for the assasination of Hugo Chavez and there happens to be a Zionist prescence in the ME known as Israel, Zarqawi idiotically bombed the Jordanian Hotels because he was duped by Karl Rove, And if OBL dies of the bird flu by rare chance, it was because of Karl Rove and the reintroduction of Social Security reform inorder to take away the news coverage from VietRaq.
:rolleyes

[Kori Ellis]

Good article Kori. As for many of the responses, point missed.

I thought the article was absolutely horrible and completely prejudice based.

That's why I posted it.

It was one of the worst articles I have ever seen.

[SpursWoman]

How is finishing high school, getting a job, staying out of trouble with the law, and not having kids before you're financially ready being prejudiced?



We all saw the images of the poorest residents of New Orleans left helpless during Hurricane Katrina, and we were all told to think about the lessons we learned during that storm. Here’s one lesson I learned: Don’t be poor.


That's the only thing I would have found questionable, but I took it as "don't be poor and put yourself in a position where you have to rely on the government to help you out....because they won't/can't." In which case I thought he had to have ripped that off from Bill O'Reilly.

:fro

[2centsworth]

What's funny is that everyone refers to the "poor" like they are different or they have some type of affliction. "poor" people are no different than me or you.

[Oh, Gee!!]

What's funny is that everyone refers to the "poor" like they are different or they have some type of affliction. "poor" people are no different than me or you.

you have no idea what being poor means obviously

[SA210]

Poor ppl are like me and you, with less.

[SA210]

you have no idea what being poor means obviously
I've come to the conclusion that some ppl just have no absolute idea whatsoever what it's like to be poor. None, none whatsoever. They just think they do.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I've come to the conclusion that some ppl just have no absolute idea whatsoever what it's like to be poor. None, none whatsoever. They just think they do.


I've never been poor, thank God. But I deal with poor people every day. I see families of four that are surviving (barely) on 12,000 a year and less. Some people that have no running water, or electricity. Some have outhouses instead of indoor plumbing. I don't know whose fault it is, but I'm not about to say poor people are no different than us. Every single day is a struggle for some people. Of course, twocents, probably thinks they deserve their fate.

[SA210]

^^^ Thank you though for understanding. Many ppl don't and many ppl actually don't want to.

[2centsworth]

you have no idea what being poor means obviously
wrong, but it's obvious you no what it means to be judgemental.

[2centsworth]

I've come to the conclusion that some ppl just have no absolute idea whatsoever what it's like to be poor. None, none whatsoever. They just think they do.
you're way too emotional. it's good to think sometimes.

[Oh, Gee!!]

wrong, but it's obvious you no what it means to be judgemental.

as you know what it means to be a ass.

[2centsworth]

I've never been poor, thank God. But I deal with poor people every day. I see families of four that are surviving (barely) on 12,000 a year and less. Some people that have no running water, or electricity. Some have outhouses instead of indoor plumbing. I don't know whose fault it is, but I'm not about to say poor people are no different than us. Every single day is a struggle for some people. Of course, twocents, probably thinks they deserve their fate.
again you're clueless and obviously don't have much upstairs.

[Oh, Gee!!]

again you're clueless and obviously don't have much upstairs.


you dispute that fact that people live this way in TX?

[2centsworth]

as you know what it means to be a ass.

No it's called knowing what I'm talking about.

[2centsworth]

you dispute that fact that people live this way in TX?
who are these people that you're talking about?

[Oh, Gee!!]

No it's called knowing what I'm talking about.

you're poor, were poor?

[Oh, Gee!!]

who are these people that you're talking about?


people living in poverty

[2centsworth]

people living in poverty
who are these people?

[Oh, Gee!!]

who are these people?

we're going in circles here

[2centsworth]

you're poor, were poor?
son of a single mother who had a 10th grade education growing up in brooklyn, NY. Financially poor, very, but had everything else anyone could ever want.

[Oh, Gee!!]

son of a single mother who had a 10th grade education growing up in brooklyn, NY. Financially poor, very, but had everything else anyone could ever want.

some don't have that good even.

[2centsworth]

we're going in circles here
What I mean is are they single mothers, illegal immigrants, high school drop outs, etc... ?

And when I mean poor I just talking financial, because some of those poor people have more than some financially rich people will ever have.

[2centsworth]

some don't have that good even.
some had it a lot worse, but now have much more than everyone on this website combined.

Poor is not a disease.

[Oh, Gee!!]

What I mean is are they single mothers, illegal immigrants, high school drop outs, etc... ?

all of the above plus battered women, legal residents, migrant workers, vietnam vets, native americans, and just plain old people down on their luck.

I forgot the elderly.

[2centsworth]

all of the above plus battered women, legal residents, migrant workers, vietnam vets, native americans, and just plain old people down on their luck.

I forgot the elderly.
I have little sympathy for the men, but we'll have to talk more later. Got to get back to work.

[SA210]

you're way too emotional. it's good to think sometimes.:rolleyes

Just because someone speaks truth doesn't automatically make them emotional. That's just a scapegoat thing to say because you don't know what you are talking about. It's good for you to think or really educate yourself on the matter.

And who are you to say I am too emotional? What is too emotional really mean? We are talking about poor ppl, some of them out in this cold weather tonight while you have a home to go to. The average age of a homeless person is 9. Look it up with our city stats.

The problem is, some ppl just don't get emotional enough over this issue. That's the truth. Now there is "emotional" for you. It's called passion. Some ppl actually have it.

[timvp]

That article was perhaps the most retarded writing I have ever read. He could have saved a lot of time by saying if you don't want to be poor -- have money. That would have made more sense and saved a lot of pointless comments.

[gtownspur]

How is finishing high school, getting a job, staying out of trouble with the law, and not having kids before you're financially ready being prejudiced?

Becuase it's just is. Being Poor™ is something beyond explanation, there is no cause, you just have to have good intentions and bad luck. How the hell are you going to tell me that i have to finish high school, get a job, and not have illegitimate kids? As far as i'm concerned high school is useless, getting a job is difficult with the man on your backside, and i can F*** whoever i want if i damn please. All i needs is my foodstamps and free bus pass. How dare you come here and tell me that frugality and hardwork minus nose candy is an honest life. That's racist. I know no better, everyone knows i'm doomed for failure because I'm Poor™, and BushLied™!

[gtownspur]

He could have saved a lot of time by saying if you don't want to be poor -- have money. That would have made more sense and saved a lot of pointless comments.


Wow, it's just like that. You poor, get money. Bada bing bada bang bada boom. :rolleyes

The article was just trying to articulate how virtually impossible it is to be poor if you just work hard and stay educated and out of trouble. You do those things, you get money. Poor people know this, but either have no faith in their abilities, or have no discipline in applying these rules. We need to stop acting like being poor is a condition like cancer inwhich one can do nothing about. Poverty is virtually non existant in our poor lower class who live in HUD homes. Many of The poor in this country happen to be obese at the same time. It's time somebody start taking the idea of entitlement out of our lexicon, and start growing self reliance. THere are poor people out there who are helpless, but that is a small fraction. We can do with spending tax dollars on those who are truly unfortunate, but we can't just grow the burdened anymore. There is a vicous cycle with being poor and living in those wards. It hardly ever lifts anybody out of their condition and leaves people emotionally handicaped on reliance of others.

[ChumpDumper]

Poverty is virtually non existant in our poor lower class who live in HUD homes.Some things speak for themselves.

[SA210]

Wow, it's just like that. You poor, get money. Bada bing bada bang bada boom. :rolleyes

The article was just trying to articulate how virtually impossible it is to be poor if you just work hard and stay educated and out of trouble. You do those things, you get money. Poor people know this, but either have no faith in their abilities, or have no discipline in applying these rules. We need to stop acting like being poor is a condition like cancer inwhich one can do nothing about. Poverty is virtually non existant in our poor lower class who live in HUD homes. Many of The poor in this country happen to be obese at the same time. It's time somebody start taking the idea of entitlement out of our lexicon, and start growing self reliance. THere are poor people out there who are helpless, but that is a small fraction. We can do with spending tax dollars on those who are truly unfortunate, but we can't just grow the burdened anymore. There is a vicous cycle with being poor and living in those wards. It hardly ever lifts anybody out of their condition and leaves people emotionally handicaped on reliance of others.:rolleyes

You don't know what you are talking about. Really, you don't. You speak from hate. You speak so much from hate, you seem to have some issues going on in your own head. I pray that you stop being so hateful. You speak and rant and hate about something you know nothing about. No, you do not know anything about poor ppl. Let's just end that right there, you do not know, or care to know or care to try and understand. You speak from hate, and ppl like you are really hurting the cause to help this situation.

[SA210]

Becuase it's just is. Being Poor™ is something beyond explanation, there is no cause, you just have to have good intentions and bad luck. How the hell are you going to tell me that i have to finish high school, get a job, and not have illegitimate kids? As far as i'm concerned high school is useless, getting a job is difficult with the man on your backside, and i can F*** whoever i want if i damn please. All i needs is my foodstamps and free bus pass. How dare you come here and tell me that frugality and hardwork minus nose candy is an honest life. That's racist. I know no better, everyone knows i'm doomed for failure because I'm Poor™, and BushLied™!:rolleyes

Just pure hate. Your so angry. And yet, know nothing about the subject.

[timvp]

gtwon is right. Everyone who was in New Orleans by the time Katrina hit didn't graduate high school, had kids early and/or were criminals. It's that simple. Bad things happen to bad people.

Don't worry, I checked on snopes.com to make sure.

:smokin

[SA210]

^^^and now they're all buying plasma screens with govt. money.:rolleyes

[gtownspur]

Some things speak for themselves.

Your sadly mistaken. I have seen fat asses who live in HUd's and have a full refrigerator. THey may not have the best threads or a decent car, but they are in noway comparable to a Lazarus, or those kids you see on tv from South america. You want to see real poverty, cross the border or go to china where people don't have running water or hot water to boil food or anything.

[SA210]

^^^ this coming from someone who hates the poor. No thanks. Don't need that lecture.

[gtownspur]

:rolleyes

You don't know what you are talking about. Really, you don't. You speak from hate. You speak so much from hate, you seem to have some issues going on in your own head. I pray that you stop being so hateful. You speak and rant and hate about something you know nothing about. No, you do not know anything about poor ppl. Let's just end that right there, you do not know, or care to know or care to try and understand. You speak from hate, and ppl like you are really hurting the cause to help this situation.

Well i'm deeply not sorry you feel that way. If you think truly think that real reforms that will actually help the poor is evil contrast to just throwing money at the probem, then you are delusional. Keep your prayers to yourself. Pray that you become logical. I don't knock what you do. Helping poor people is a gift and privelege. But at the same time, idiots on this board want to fucking rebuild the ninth ward and bring it back to its glory, and not help those people change their behavior.

Being poor is a vicous cycle. Hardly do you see people move out of their condition when they have it made with 50 dollar rent and a food card. With those benefits, there is no incentive to work. There is no hope, and if you keep don't change your methods with dealing with them, then you embolden their dependence. Where in my thread did i say i hate the poor. The only people i hate are those who use them politicaly, and have low expectations for them. :rolleyes

[gtownspur]

^^^ this coming from someone who hates the poor. No thanks. Don't need that lecture.

Your a fuckin moron and a simpleton. Post something where i said i hate the poor. I have poor family members, and i love them like anyother family. Your just an ignorant fuck, and think because your progressive that you are the uberjesus who is all altruistic. Get of your high horse.

[gtownspur]

gtwon is right. Everyone who was in New Orleans by the time Katrina hit didn't graduate high school, had kids early and/or were criminals. It's that simple. Bad things happen to bad people.

Don't worry, I checked on snopes.com to make sure.

:smokin


On the contrary, i thought a majority had bachelor degrees, and once were the aristocracy of NEw orleans of old, but just went through a dry spell. :lol
Man, if you think i dont know about exceptions to the rule, don't waste your typing.

Not all of the evacuees fit the mold, but a good percentage of them fit one of those charecteristics. Maybe those statistics that prove that education and affluence are related were made up by racist and the white devil. Maybe all those statistics proving that lifestyle does effect income were all made up by republicans and myself.

The sad thing is that democrats like Sharpton and Jackson always went on cable network news show and said the number one factor of poverty in the black community was fatherless children.

I mean TimVp, you hear all the time of how many of those in prison grew up in fatherless homes, and in poverty. Maybe they do have a correlation. Or mayber the fact that up to 70% of all black babies are born into broken homes and fatherless as a statistic has been said by many well respected sociologist and pshycologist.

And alwhile you look at New orleans and you notice that many of those people in there fit the statistic. It's sad. But what's even sadder is inventing excuses for the grownups to allow their kids to grow that way.

Yeah, i bet you there were plenty of people who were honest folks that got trapped. But it's not like the storm happened all of a sudden. There was ample warning and many of them had cars and opted to ride out the storm.

I can excuse the children, but i hold the adults to a higher standard.

[SA210]

Well i'm deeply not sorry you feel that way. If you think truly think that real reforms that will actually help the poor is evil contrast to just throwing money at the probem, then you are delusional. Keep your prayers to yourself. Pray that you become logical. I don't knock what you do. Helping poor people is a gift and privelege. But at the same time, idiots on this board want to fucking rebuild the ninth ward and bring it back to its glory, and not help those people change their behavior.

Being poor is a vicous cycle. Hardly do you see people move out of their condition when they have it made with 50 dollar rent and a food card. With those benefits, there is no incentive to work. There is no hope, and if you keep don't change your methods with dealing with them, then you embolden their dependence. Where in my thread did i say i hate the poor. The only people i hate are those who use them politicaly, and have low expectations for them. :rolleyes:rolleyes

The hate is what what you say and how you say it. I never said "just throw money at them". But I tell you what, "cuts" ain't gonna help it. And if you paid attention to any of my posts, you would see that I did mention helping them see other avenues, better opportunities.

And you say 50 dollar rent? you wouldn't want to believe that there are ppl in housing paying 3 to 400 dollars or more for rent, would you? No, that's not important. That 50 dollar person bothers you so much doesn't it? If you knew anything about this situation , you would know these facts, but yes, you do speak from hate. Maybe you should be logical, No, have some compassion and please try not to be so selfish.

Where are you right now? Because we could drive right now to a bridge and find a mother and kids under that bridge right now? Would u like to go see them right now? Or do they scare you? Because they are there right now, thank God it isn't as cold as last night.

And please stop with the "stop acting like poor is a disease" and "poor is not contagious" nonsense. This is like how you defend Bush when you actually do know he's a liar, but they twist it and say ppl are against the troops. Spin is all that is. But we know the truth.

I'm just talking about an issue that many are afraid to talk about. It's a touchy subject isn't it? Why can't you hack it? These are your fellow Americans. Many of the soldiers fighting your war were poor, many of them from the poorest neighborhoods, many minorities. You know, the ones Bush doesn't wanna help.

I say maybe the poor is contagious, maybe the "poor" virus is spreading because many are doing nothing about it. Housing prices have been rising, but yet, no minimum wage increase. 25,000 homeless in San Antonio and we are the #1 largest city in the shortest supply of affordable housing. Poor spreads in part because it's ignored.

And yes, Bush lied.

[SA210]

Your a fuckin moron and a simpleton. Post something where i said i hate the poor. I have poor family members, and i love them like anyother family. Your just an ignorant fuck, and think because your progressive that you are the uberjesus who is all altruistic. Get of your high horse.
So, you resort to cursing at me. The hate is in what you say. I know about poor ppl, you don't, but you still speak garbage and mistruths about them, and I'm ignorant?
And please don't tell me what I think I am. Your hate continues. uberjesus? That's ridiculous, I just try to be nice. There is nothing wrong with that. I haven't cursed you out. I've stayed, I hope, pretty mature about this. But in the end, I am an advocate for the poor. And I will always stay true and know where I came from. I can't ignore it. If you wanna say i'm on a high horse, then your the one that put me there.

I never said I was above anyone, your just angry.

[gtownspur]

:rolleyes

The hate is what what you say and how you say it. I never said "just throw money at them". But I tell you what, "cuts" any gonna help it. And if you paid attention to any of my posts, you would see that I did mention helping them see other avenues, better opportunities.

And you say 50 dollar rent? you wouldn't want to believe that there are ppl in housing paying 3 to 400 dollars or more for rent, would you? No, that's not important. That 50 dollar person bothers you so much doesn't it? If you knew anything about this situation , you would know these facts, but yes, you do speak from hate. Maybe you should be logical, No, have some compassion and please try not to be so selfish.

Where are you right now? Because we could drive right now to a bridge and find a mother and kids under that bridge right now? Would u like to go see them right now? Or do they scare you? Because they are there right now, thank God it isn't as cold as last night.

And please stop with the "stop acting like poor is a disease" and "poor is not contagious" nonsense. This is like how you defend Bush when you actually do know he's a liar, but they twist it and say ppl are against the troops. Spin is all that is. But we know the truth.

I'm just talking about an issue that many are afraid to talk about. It's a touchy subject isn't it? Why can't you hack it? These are your fellow Americans. Many of the soldiers fighting your war were poor, many of them from the poorest neighborhoods, many minorities. You know, the ones Bush doesn't wanna help.

I say maybe the poor is contagious, maybe the "poor" virus is spreading because many are doing nothing about it. Housing prices have been rising, but yet, no minimum wage increase. 25,000 homeless in San Antonio and we are the #1 largest city in the shortest supply of affordable housing. Poor spreads in part because it's ignored.

And yes, Bush lied.

Quit being all Celine Dion and a fuckin Diva. You want to know where i got the 50 dollar rent figure from? People who live in Stone Haven in my town.

You think you won the argument becuase sadly there's a mother with kids living under a bridge. Now how did you go from comparing actual homeless people to Welfare recipients, to which i was actually adressing. Man, i could care less how much you throw money at that mother and children cuz they actually need it. They are the ones who actually deserve our charity.

Nevertheless, no one here is denying that there are homeless people. It's sad that there are homeless. And we have charities to help those in need from all walks of life.

But you need to stop being a big bitch, and stop comparing apples to oranges. You know that while there is those kind of tragic examples of homeless kids and pregnant mothers, there are also welfare queens and pimps who border on scum and are able body to get their own job.

But you want to know what's sad for you dipshit. Bush has not vetoed one bill or another while he has been in office. He has not slashed govt aid to the poor. And at that you want to blame him for all that is bad in this world. You want to use that poor mother and child as propaganda to destroy a man's character so that you could use them for your political advantage.

I see how it works with your type. "I feed you, and therefore i use my status i recieved from your poverty to elevate myself on high ground while i diminish others politically" What is it to you? You help the poor and in turn you use them as a political football to make your opponents feel guilty? Your sad. If i were you i'd keep my job and charity with them apolitical, rather than using those good souls as propaganda for your own beliefs.

But you know what's sadder? There are people in the welfare system who are buying drugs and worthless material with their money and sacriding the system to have the gov buy them their next barbecue, allwhile that money could of been sent to the lady with kids living under the bridge. But you don't see that. All you see is how BUsh is satan for no reason at all.

You mean to tell me if John Kerry were president, the lady and kids would of fared better. Your an extremely sad joke. :rolleyes

[gtownspur]

^^^ this coming from someone who hates the poor. No thanks. Don't need that lecture.

You know what me cursing is stupid on my part. Forgive me.

Yet, You may not have cursed me out. But you damn well slandered my name. And I dont respect you for that. Sorry.

[SA210]

Quit being all Celine Dion and a fuckin Diva. You want to know where i got the 50 dollar rent figure from? People who live in Stone Haven in my town.

You think you won the argument becuase sadly there's a mother with kids living under a bridge. Now how did you go from comparing actual homeless people to Welfare recipients, to which i was actually adressing. Man, i could care less how much you throw money at that mother and children cuz they actually need it. They are the ones who actually deserve our charity.

Nevertheless, no one here is denying that there are homeless people. It's sad that there are homeless. And we have charities to help those in need from all walks of life.

But you need to stop being a big bitch, and stop comparing apples to oranges. You know that while there is those kind of tragic examples of homeless kids and pregnant mothers, there are also welfare queens and pimps who border on scum and are able body to get their own job.

But you want to know what's sad for you dipshit. Bush has not vetoed one bill or another while he has been in office. He has not slashed govt aid to the poor. And at that you want to blame him for all that is bad in this world. You want to use that poor mother and child as propaganda to destroy a man's character so that you could use them for your political advantage.

I see how it works with your type. "I feed you, and therefore i use my status i recieved from your poverty to elevate myself on high ground while i diminish others politically" What is it to you? You help the poor and in turn you use them as a political football to make your opponents feel guilty? Your sad. If i were you i'd keep my job and charity with them apolitical, rather than using those good souls as propaganda for your own beliefs.

But you know what's sadder? There are people in the welfare system who are buying crack with their money and sacriding the system to have the gov buy them their next barbecue, allwhile that money could of been sent to the lady with kids living under the bridge. But you don't see that. All you see is how BUsh is satan for no reason at all.

You mean to tell me if John Kerry were president, the lady and kids would of fared better. Your an extremely sad joke. :rolleyes
Your posts are the joke. Tell me how Bush is helping them. Tell me how Bush is the answer for poverty. :rolleyes. And you know what's sickening? That you hate the poor so much and ppl who help them, i guess, that you feel, if someone is helping them it must be for political advantage, because who in the world would help those ppl? :rolleyes You are sad. And homeless ppl are poor, did you not know that? Of course not, you know nothing about the poor.

Ok, your right, all ppl who get welfare are buying crack. :rolleyes
End all assistance now. :rolleyes

Does it make you feel good to call ppl names when you lose arguments? That sounds like a Diva to me.

[SA210]

You know what me cursing is stupid on my part. Forgive me.

Yet, You may not have cursed me out. But you damn well slandered my name. And I dont respect you for that. Sorry.No, you slandered poor ppl, and that's alot of ppl, and you have lost all credibiltity. Sorry.

[gtownspur]

Your posts are the joke. Tell me how Bush is helping them. Tell me how Bush is the answer for poverty. :rolleyes. And you know what's sickening? That you hate the poor so much and ppl who help them, i guess, that you feel, if someone is helping them it must be for political advantage, because who in the world would help those ppl? :rolleyes You are sad. And homeless ppl are poor, did you not know that? Of course not, you know nothing about the poor.

Ok, your right, all ppl who get welfare are buying crack. :rolleyes
End all assistance now. :rolleyes

Does it make you feel good to call ppl names when you lose arguments? That sounds like a Diva to me.

Ok, your getting worse than a menstuating hag. If bush is helping the poor it won't be becuase of his policies, but because of his personal contributions to charity. You don't know the guy personally and you are an emotional little girl.

But since Bush only strenghted govt spending if he has not helped the poor, then bill clinton hasn't either. But this shouldn't be about partisan politics.

Yeah i know homeless people are poor, but i was talking about welfare recipients who are able bodied.

And don't for the sake of winning the argument generalize my point. I never said all welfare recipients buy drugs. I merely said that those who do while abusing the system are taking the money away from those who actually need it like the homeless lady under the bridge. But no... Your to stuck up your bs rhetoric to acknowledge that that kind of abuse is what is actually hurting that lady.

But go ahead. Just keep on saying i hate the poor. Keep throwing cheapshots at anyone who disagrees with you. If I lost credibility, it wasn't to you. :lol

[SA210]

You lost credibilty when you backed Bush for lying to America.

[gtownspur]

No, you slandered poor ppl, and that's alot of ppl, and you have lost all credibiltity. Sorry.

How did i slander them, by pointing out that amongst them there are people who take advantage of goverment charity and thus at the same time deny the very same people from actually recieving the help? :rolleyes

I'm sorry to warn you, but Poor people are the same as any in respect to bad and good. It's not like they're all saints and shit m%m's. There like you and me. :lol

[SA210]

What was I doing talking about this issue with u anyway for? Your a Bush backer. :lol nuff said.

[SA210]

How did i slander them, by pointing out that amongst them there are people who take advantage of goverment charity and thus at the same time deny the very same people from actually recieving the help? :rolleyes

I'm sorry to warn you, but Poor people are the same as any in respect to bad and good. It's not like they're all saints and shit m%m's. There like you and me. :lol
:rolleyes

They are like me and you,


with less.

[gtownspur]

You lost credibilty when you backed Bush for lying to America.

Maybe, it was my vote that caused poor people to transport from a portal linked to another dimension to all of a sudden appear on Innaguaral day on this earth.

GO back to doing charity. I respected you alot better when you actually were productive.

[gtownspur]

:rolleyes

They are like me and you,


with less.


And like you as well...

but with a brain.

[SA210]

I don't expect for you to respect me. You regularly resort to name calling when someone doesn't agree with you. That was expected. But, just because we disagree and you call me sissy names like Diva's do, I don't hate you. I just wish you weren't so rude and would be open minded to real issues.

[SA210]

And like you as well...

but with a brain.
I do have a heart though. That's what bothers you so much.

[Nbadan]

Ok, your getting worse than a menstuating hag. If bush is helping the poor it won't be becuase of his policies, but because of his personal contributions to charity. You don't know the guy personally and you are an emotional little girl.

Common G'Town. SA210 was making some reasonable points before you started with the name calling. Totally unneccessary, and totally uncool. You might as well stop typing there because you lost any credibility.

[gtownspur]

^^HE was making half valid points. HE lost it when he said that i hate poor people and i'm filled with hate. If that's not name calling, then what is.

If i called you a bigot, would that be a valid and reasonable argument?

[gtownspur]

Common G'Town. SA210 was making some reasonable points before you started with the name calling. Totally unneccessary, and totally uncool. You might as well stop typing there because you lost any credibility.

and as much as i like you. You'd be the last person anyone would ask if they had credibility.

[SA210]

^^go back and read all your posts in all threads. you are filled with alot of anger, not just in this thread. And then you get all ticked off on the subject of helping the poor. You do have anger in you alot of times. It's ok to vent sometimes, but the hate shows.

[gtownspur]

I do have a heart though. That's what bothers you so much.


I don't know you personally. Perhaps you do charity to alleviate the guilt you have for violating your cat? who knows. :lol

But either way, i'm thankful for your charity towards others for whatever reason,

[gtownspur]

^^go back and read all your posts in all threads. you are filled with alot of anger, not just in this thread. And then you get all ticked off on the subject of helping the poor. You do have anger in you alot of times. It's ok to vent sometimes, but the hate shows.

Having an asshole different from yours would qualify hate by your definition. No thanks.

[SA210]

^^^ See, you can't just give a compliment, you have to insult. I do it because I love it. It's not even like a civic duty to me, it's my life.

[SA210]

Having an asshole different from yours would qualify hate by your definition. No thanks.
This doesn't prove that your not angry in alot of your posts.

[cecil collins]

gtown is just dumb. He's got spunk though.

[Nbadan]

^^HE was making half valid points. HE lost it when he said that i hate poor people and i'm filled with hate. If that's not name calling, then what is.

If i called you a bigot, would that be a valid and reasonable argument?

I've been around long enough to know that you believe what you post, it may not make sense to many of us, but it makes sense to you (in some warped Grover Norquist sort of way). However, you have to consider that when you express your extreme views, half the board is going to automatically disagree with you, and a 1/3 of the conservatives on the board are going to disown you. Hey, it happens to the best of us, but the important thing is not too lose your cool. The old adage 'I've been called worse by better' comes to mind.

[gtownspur]

^^^ See, you can't just give a compliment, you have to insult. I do it because I love it. It's not even like a civic duty to me, it's my life.

Oh spare me. :lol, Can't you take a joke?

[SA210]

I can, but with your anger, how do I know your joking? :lol

[gtownspur]

I've been around long enough to know that you believe what you post, it may not make sense to many of us, but it makes sense to you (in some warped Grover Norquist sort of way). However, you have to consider that when you express your extreme views, half the board is going to automatically disagree with you, and a 1/3 of the conservatives on the board are going to disown you. Hey, it happens to the best of us, but the important thing is not too lose your cool. The old adage 'I've been called worse by better' comes to mind.

Thanks big momma. :rolleyes

No seriously, yeah i did lose my cool. So what. It's past midnight. Ok, now i'm inventing excuses. :spin

But your right i have been called worse by better.

I should of never taken SA210 seriously on his bile.

[gtownspur]

I can, but with your anger, how do I know your joking? :lol

You need to distinguish. I was angry with my insults, but not my viewpoints. To say that someone is filled with hate, you better prove it with his own words.

[SA210]

:rolleyes

[SA210]

You need to distinguish. I was angry with my insults, but not my viewpoints. To say that someone is filled with hate, you better prove it with his own words.
And to prove your viewpoints on the poor, use facts or actually know what you are talking about.

[SpursWoman]

gtwon is right. Everyone who was in New Orleans by the time Katrina hit didn't graduate high school, had kids early and/or were criminals. It's that simple. Bad things happen to bad people.

Don't worry, I checked on snopes.com to make sure.

:smokin


Those things may not solve everyone's problems, but it certainly isn't going to hold anyone back...and it will give people the best shot of having a successful life, regardless of race.

As far as lessons learned, I'd go with the "don't live below sea level" one as my personal choice.

I've only been to snopes once or twice, but I didn't realize they verified personal opinions and commentary. :)

[2centsworth]

delete

[2centsworth]

That article was perhaps the most retarded writing I have ever read. He could have saved a lot of time by saying if you don't want to be poor -- have money. That would have made more sense and saved a lot of pointless comments.
there are a lot of people who don't know how to make money. Sometime simplifying how to make money helps people.

Unless you think what the guy suggested is too big a challenge for a lot of people. Not to say I think his formula is right.

[SA210]

:rolleyes

I'm old enough to know Bush lies to America, and ppl know this, but yet still spin and back him up like he's the greatest president ever. Nothing can change that fact.

[2centsworth]

:rolleyes

I'm old enough to know Bush lies to America, and ppl know this, but yet still spin and back im up like he's the greatest president ever.
Doing :rolleyes every post is not a take.

[SA210]

:rolleyes


and that's your response. Spin.

[kris]

LJ referred the article to me and it looks pretty racist to me. Sounds like a white guy trying to tell people in the streets how to be better off. I don't think Jim Farynsworth knows just how hard it is. Realistically, so you graduate a ghetto high school with a 78 GPA and then you get some $6/hr job to go along with your $380 roach trap apartment when your 18. Now what? You work so you can be in poverty. Then when you're 24 you get married and have a kid and hope you're savings of $319.81 has made enough interest to buy a ghetto rent house? I haven't lived below lower-middle class since I was 5 and I know only what I've read or heard, but I think the struggle is harder than a couple of simple rules to follow. The article is sheer, brilliant ignorance.

[MannyIsGod]

LJ referred the article to me and it looks pretty racist to me. Sounds like a white guy trying to tell people in the streets how to be better off. I don't think Jim Farynsworth knows just how hard it is. Realistically, so you graduate a ghetto high school with a 78 GPA and then you get some $6/hr job to go along with your $380 roach trap apartment when your 18. Now what? You work so you can be in poverty. Then when you're 24 you get married and have a kid and hope you're savings of $319.81 has made enough interest to buy a ghetto rent house? I haven't lived below lower-middle class since I was 5 and I know only what I've read or heard, but I think the struggle is harder than a couple of simple rules to follow. The article is sheer, brilliant ignorance.
Well said. There is something to be said about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps but there is also an element people don't realize unless they've lived it. That element is the vast level of demoralization that comes with living under the poverty line and the skew it places on the perceptions of what one can accomplish.

Honestly? I'm sick of people who have it easier pointing to the 1 out of 25 that makes it while ignoring the other 24 who don't. The perspective just isn't there.

[SpursWoman]

Those things may not solve everyone's problems, but it certainly isn't going to hold anyone back...and it will give people the best shot of having a successful life, regardless of race.



I still don't see it as racist at all, perhaps overly simplistic, though. I still think he ripped the idea off from O'Reilly ... whose point was "don't be poor -- so you don't have to depend so much on a government that will most likely fail you." Whether that was his intent or not, I don't know...but his points were too similar to what O'Reilly was saying.

[jochhejaam]

1) Attend High School, Pay Attention, and Graduate. You notice, they didn’t say you have to do well in high school, just don't drop out. They didn’t say you have to attend Harvard, or even attend college at all. They didn’t say you have to make the honor roll, be on the football team, or in the band. Just be furniture. Show up and graduate. I strongly agree with the 4 ways to avoid poverty but this particular point requires the help of someone that may not want to or may not be able to offer that help.
I've worked for a low income housing agnecy for 23 years and far too many of the parents of the children living there were raised in poverty, do not have a diploma and probably do not understand the value of an education.
This handicaps their children because they can't pass on what they don't have.
The learning environment in the schools that many of them attend is chaotic (my wife is a teacher in one of these schools, charter) with constant disiplinary interuptions during the day interferring with constructive teaching and learning..

I live right outside of Toledo, OH and they have implemented, for the last three years, a program where they have two grade schools set aside, one for teh boys and one for the girls, the racial makeup is predominantly black. The girls proficiency was somewhat higher than the boys when they started and after three years their proficiency has skyrocketed while the boys went even lower. What does that tell us?
1. Girls are more serious minded and better understand the value of an education. (when asked if they would like the schools to combine both sexes most of the girls said no)
2. Boys don't understand the value of an education (parent(s) play a role here) and are more interested in emulating their role models; Basketball players, rappers, etc. and some of their immediate peers who are trying to make the big, quick buck in the drug trade.




Here's the article about the single gender schools, it's an interesting read.


Boys lagging in same-gender schools
Girls show big gains but male test scores backslide at TPS academies
By IGNAZIO MESSINA
BLADE STAFF WRITER


Girls are better than boys.

At least that's the result so far at Toledo Public's two single-gender public elementary schools, which now are in their third year.

Stewart Academy for Girls and Lincoln Academy for Boys are performing better than before transforming into single gender schools, but the all-female building has shown significant improvement while scores at the boys' building are actually worse in some areas.

"Our scores are phenomenal, and we have had high gains in proficiency tests," said Suzanne Muggy, assistant principal at Stewart.

Unfortunately, school leaders cannot say the same for Stewart's all-male counterpart.

Lincoln Academy for Boys "has not increased at a rate I would like," Toledo Public Schools Superintendent Eugene Sanders acknowledged.

In fact, the sixth-grade test scores last year at Lincoln Academy for Boys were worse in each subject when compared to the previous year's scores.

During the 2004-2005 school year, just 12.9 percent of the boys were rated "proficient" or better in reading; 53.6 percent were proficient or better in writing, and only 6.5 percent were proficient or better in math.

The previous year, 16.2 percent of the boys were proficient or better in reading; 57.9 percent were proficient or better in writing, and 18.4 percent were proficient or better in math.

Stewart, which is temporarily at the former Warren Elementary on Woodruff Avenue while its building on Avondale Avenue is razed and rebuilt, has made the greatest gains in sixth-grade state tests.

During the 2004-2005 school year, 89.4 percent of the girls achieved a "proficient" rating or better in reading; 80.4 percent were proficient or better in writing, and 59.6 percent were proficient or better in math.

Those scores were a marked improvement over even the previous year, when only 17.2 percent were proficient or better in reading; 75.9 percent were proficient or better in writing, and 34.5 percent were proficient or better in math.

So why are the girls advancing so much quicker than the boys?

Three different principals in three years and a staff of mostly new teachers after restructuring the district because of layoffs have rocked Lincoln's stability, Mr. Sanders said.

"We think once we stabilize the administration and once we are able to more selectively identify teachers for the academies, that will be a strong element [toward success]," he said.

Stewart teachers say one of the reasons the girls are performing better is because they now have a feeling of pride for their school that was not there before.

When asked if she missed being in school with boys, 10-year-old NaKayla James quickly shook her head sideways and said no.

"It's better now because we can learn," she said. "The boys were always being bad and off-track."

Rhea Dawson, an 8-year-old at Stewart, said boys are mostly a distraction for her.

"At my old school, Reynolds Elementary, the boys got the girls in trouble," Rhea said.

Third-grade teacher Kelly Szurko has been at Stewart for seven years and said her job is now incredibly easier.

"The biggest thing I've noticed is that it's calmer and quiet," Ms. Szurko said. "I have no discipline problems, our test scores in sixth grade have skyrocketed, and all the teachers are working really well."

Jamie Johnson, the new principal at Lincoln Academy for Boys, said the school's teachers still have a real challenge.

"It's not a big, giant gymnasium like people think," she said of the perception some may have of an all-male student body. "It has been three years, and in that time the staff has done a lot of research on how boys learn differently, so we don't have to experiment anymore."

She's noticed the boys at Lincoln are better behaved than at co-ed schools, where she said males try to show off for the females. Also, boys in a single-gender environment are more likely to pursue interests in art, music, drama, and foreign languages than those in co-ed schools, she said.

However, the test scores for Stewart's boys are not acceptable, Ms. Johnson said.

Toledo Public's single-gender schools are voluntary for students and structured as magnet schools. The district received national attention in 2003 when Mr. Sanders announced it would join a very short list of communities with single-gender public elementary schools. It still has the only all-girls public elementary school building in Ohio.

A provision of the federal No Child Left Behind Act allows school districts to establish single-gender schools and classrooms, a trend that is spreading nationally.

Last month, the Miami-Dade School Board approved the first all-female public school in South Florida for students in grades 6 through 12.

Closer to Toledo, Columbus is considering two single-gender middle schools to help compete with charter schools, which are publicly funded, privately run schools free from many state regulations.

Toledo Public opened its single-gender schools, in part, to compete with charter schools, which have lured thousand of students away from their school system.

Some research suggests that students perform better - both academically and behaviorally - in a single-gender classroom, but skeptics say that research usually is based on private schools.

Overall, Lincoln is ranked in "academic emergency" by the state - the lowest category and the equivalent of an F. It also missed a tough federal standard requiring it show "adequate yearly progress" among different subgroups of students.

Stewart is ranked as a "continuous improvement" school, which is the equivalent of a C on the state's five-tier ranking system, and met the adequate yearly progress goal.

"We are very pleased where Stewart is," Superintendent Sanders said.

"There is an automatic embracing of the single-gender education there and we want to mirror that at Lincoln."

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20051113&Category=NEWS04&ArtNo=511130309&SectionCat=&Template=printart

[jochhejaam]

In this country there is a better than 95% chance you WILL NOT BE POOR if you do the following:

1. Graduate High School.
2. Don't get pregnant or married before you are 21.
3. Don't commit crimes.
4. Have a job.

I do wonder, however, if they know any of this. Are they told that statistically there is a pretty good chance that it will turn our allright if they just follow the simple instructions above? Or are they told that they don't stand a chance of "making it" without help, that there is nothing they can do, that they are being held down?

What if the poor people in this country were let in on the secret that this study reveals?

A large percentage of those in poverty are African Americans and their parents, role models (and they know who they are), and the so-called leaders of those that are poverty stricken (Jesse and Sharpton to name a couple) should be trumpeting this message without ceasing but they don't.
Why is that?

[ChumpDumper]

[QUOTE=jochhejaam]A large percentage of those in poverty are African Americans and their parents, role models (and they know who they are), and the so-called leaders of those that are poverty stricken (Jesse and Sharpton to name a couple) should be trumpeting this message without ceasing but they don't.

Why is that?Those guys tell the poor to drop out of school?

I'd like to see a quote or two.

[SA210]

LJ referred the article to me and it looks pretty racist to me. Sounds like a white guy trying to tell people in the streets how to be better off. I don't think Jim Farynsworth knows just how hard it is. Realistically, so you graduate a ghetto high school with a 78 GPA and then you get some $6/hr job to go along with your $380 roach trap apartment when your 18. Now what? You work so you can be in poverty. Then when you're 24 you get married and have a kid and hope you're savings of $319.81 has made enough interest to buy a ghetto rent house? I haven't lived below lower-middle class since I was 5 and I know only what I've read or heard, but I think the struggle is harder than a couple of simple rules to follow. The article is sheer, brilliant ignorance.Kris, good post, some just don't understand. Stay alert for anyone telling you, you shouldn't have kids cuz your poor.

[kris]

I still don't see it as racist at all, perhaps overly simplistic, though. I still think he ripped the idea off from O'Reilly ... whose point was "don't be poor -- so you don't have to depend so much on a government that will most likely fail you." Whether that was his intent or not, I don't know...but his points were too similar to what O'Reilly was saying.

This is one of the articles that is not facially discriminatory, but when one actually applies the principles it becomes adverse towards a particular group. The author came out and said it wasn't about one skin color. However, it was specifically geared toward Katrina victims, who for the most part happened to be black. It also goes on to say, "And of those handful who do manage to make real money in the drug trade, most don’t succeed using the ‘skills’ they grunt about on rap videos." This doesn't specifically come out and say black people, but what racial group is associated with being rappers? (Furthermore, I can not substantiate the fact, but seeing as how the author is so oblivious to how life is for the people he describes, I think he gets things like not having a baby before 21 or married from rap songs/videos.) Thus, while the author does not out and out say poor black people should do these things and they won't live in poverty, his implications make him adversely discriminatory because they are targeted at one race. (It's kind of like when someone goes so hypothetically say Jimmy asked Sally out and Sally said no, but Jimmy thinks she might just be saying that because she thinks he is still with his girlfriend. What should Jimmy do? We all know who Jimmy is don't we?)

I think the author saw repeated clips on the news and was thinking these black people are so damn dumb. If they weren't so poor, they could have made it out, but they're to busy being drug dealers, having babies, and rappers. No doubt, I'm sure his principles would be beneficial, but there are a lot of factors that common sense will tell you that he doesn't have. It's very idealistic for a single, 32 year old white writer that makes $28,000 a year to think, "that would never happen to me, if I was 16 I would go in there, get a job, finish school, and be a success."

What about other factors that will make the inner city what the inner city is? It's a whole lot harder than the writer thinks. A relatively high porportion successes are athletes, rappers, or drug dealers (financially). That's because it's hard for a born and raised project (black) kid to assimilate into middle (white) America. Maybe if there wasn't so many stupid ass people like Jim Farynsworth, it would be a little easier.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]Those guys tell the poor to drop out of school?

I'd like to see a quote or two.
Hey CD. I didn't say they tell them to drop out (libelous :lol ), I said they should be trumpeting the message of "how to stay out of poverty" Provide me the info that refutes what I actually said, okay?



The most recent quote from Jesse that stands out in my mind is "we don't want welfare, we want our share." Then there's his bid to get $40,000 for each African American for reparations, and of course who can forget the fine example he set by getting his mistress pregnant...what message was thundered home by that?
Jesse's out for Jesse more so than the well being of those in poverty.

[SA210]

This is one of the articles that is not facially discriminatory, but when one actually applies the principles it becomes adverse towards a particular group. The author came out and said it wasn't about one skin color. However, it was specifically geared toward Katrina victims, who for the most part happened to be black. It also goes on to say, "And of those handful who do manage to make real money in the drug trade, most don’t succeed using the ‘skills’ they grunt about on rap videos." This doesn't specifically come out and say black people, but what racial group is associated with being rappers? (Furthermore, I can not substantiate the fact, but seeing as how the author is so oblivious to how life is for the people he describes, I think he gets things like not having a baby before 21 or married from rap songs/videos.) Thus, while the author does not out and out say poor black people should do these things and they won't live in poverty, his implications make him adversely discriminatory because they are targeted at one race. (It's kind of like when someone goes so hypothetically say Jimmy asked Sally out and Sally said no, but Jimmy thinks she might just be saying that because she thinks he is still with his girlfriend. What should Jimmy do? We all know who Jimmy is don't we?)

I think the author saw repeated clips on the news and was thinking these black people are so damn dumb. If they weren't so poor, they could have made it out, but they're to busy being drug dealers, having babies, and rappers. No doubt, I'm sure his principles would be beneficial, but there are a lot of factors that common sense will tell you that he doesn't have. It's very idealistic for a single, 32 year old white writer that makes $28,000 a year to think, "that would never happen to me, if I was 16 I would go in there, get a job, finish school, and be a success."

What about other factors that will make the inner city what the inner city is? It's a whole lot harder than the writer thinks. A relatively high porportion successes are athletes, rappers, or drug dealers (financially). That's because it's hard for a born and raised project (black) kid to assimilate into middle (white) America. Maybe if there wasn't so many stupid ass people like Jim Farynsworth, it would be a little easier.

:tu The best post by far I've read in this forum. One of those posts that speaks truth and is usually ignored because of it.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey CD. I didn't say they tell them to drop out (libelous :lol ), I said they should be trumpeting the message of "how to stay out of poverty" Provide me the info that refutes what I actually said, okay?Prove to me they haven't said these things in all their speeches the past 30 years. I'm sure you have all of them in your archives since you know everything they've ever done.

[jochhejaam]

Hey CD. I didn't say they tell them to drop out (libelous ), I said they should be trumpeting the message of "how to stay out of poverty" Provide me the info that refutes what I actually said, okay?




Prove to me they haven't said these things in all their speeches the past 30 years. I'm sure you have all of them in your archives since you know everything they've ever done.

That's about what I thought you had, nothing.

[ChumpDumper]

Same as you. Completely assinine to believe someone who includes educational funding in nearly every speech he makes thinks it isn't important to stay in school.

[jochhejaam]

Prove to me they haven't said these things in all their speeches the past 30 years. I'm sure you have all of them in your archives since you know everything they've ever done.

If they have where are the results? Specifics would be great!

[jochhejaam]

Same as you. Completely assinine to believe someone who includes educational funding in nearly every speech he makes thinks it isn't important to stay in school.
Yeah, throwing more money at it, that's the answer. NOT!

[ChumpDumper]

If they have where are the results? Specifics would be great!Gee, what are the specific results of any speech given anywhere at any time?

Tell me how that works in your fantasy land.

What are the specific results of the original article?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, throwing more money at it, that's the answer. NOT!Taking money away is really doing wonders. NOT!

Besides, we just keep throwing money at Iraq -- is that working or not?

[jochhejaam]

Taking money away is really doing wonders. NOT!

Besides, we just keep throwing money at Iraq -- is that working or not?
I think you may want to edit that because you just made my point for me...throwing more money at a problem in and of itself is not the answer.

Make up your mind!

[ChumpDumper]

Answer the question.

[jochhejaam]

I rest my (our) case, thanks for the assist.

[ChumpDumper]

If you're afraid to answer, just say so.

[SA210]

Taking money away is really doing wonders. NOT!

Besides, we just keep throwing money at Iraq -- is that working or not?
Exactly. It's good for one but not the other.

[jochhejaam]

Same as you. Completely assinine to believe someone who includes educational funding in nearly every speech he makes thinks it isn't important to stay in school.
If you would pay more attention to the detail in my post you wouldn't have read into that he doesn't think it's important to stay in school" oh spinmaster. , the clear point I made was that they should be sounding off incessantly about the virtues mentioned in the first post in this thread.
Unless you live in a broom closet you shouldn't have to ask for documentation about what Jesse's real agenda is which is 'one for all and all for Jesse".

If you don't really know about the real Jesse and your're interested in the specifics I suggest you read Kenneth Timmerman's recently released book, "Shakedown: The Life & Lies of the Reverend Jesse Jackson".

Summary of some of the contents;

* How Jackson personally profited from "non-profit" groups whose funds were intended to help poor minorities and civil rights

* How Jackson used his "public service" image to live the lifestyle of Donald Trump: jets, top class hotels, million dollar homes - the best of everything - you name it!

* How Jackson earned the name "Action Jackson" because of his voracious appetite for women

* How Jackson used his complaints of racism against major corporations as a method of out-and-out extortion and blackmail in order to reap millions for himself and his organizations

* The special relationship Jackson formed with Bill Clinton during the Monica affair and how Jackson got millions in taxpayer funds for being a Democratic Party mouthpiece

"Shakedown" will knock your socks off! There are so many more shocking revelations we have to tell you about Jackson -- but in keeping with good taste, we won't print them here. In fact, you'll find out that almost everything you knew about Jackson is a lie:

* Jackson was NOT anointed by Martin Luther King to be his heir.

* Jackson was NEVER even an ordained a minister.

* Jackson was NEVER poor or victimized by racism, as he has alleged. But it gets worse. "Shakedown" reveals that Jackson acts more like a mobster than a civil rights leader.

"Shakedown" reports on Jackson's ties to the Chicago mob and his "ruthless" methods:

"Beatings, death threats, career destruction and verbal assaults that border on incitement to murder are all staples of the Jackson Treatment."

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895261650.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Of course you're right CD, he's all about helping those in poverty... :wtf

[ChumpDumper]

Still not answering the question.

Advertisements are not answers.

I could post an ad for an unflattering book on Bush, so what?

Thanks for telling me the content of every JJ and Sharpton speech in the past thirty years. You really showed how they never talk about staying in school or out of jail. Why bring shit up if you aren't going to back it up?

[ChumpDumper]

So, in conclusion:

Jackson hates the poor and wants them to ditch school.

And someone wrote a book.

[gtownspur]

This is one of the articles that is not facially discriminatory, but when one actually applies the principles it becomes adverse towards a particular group. The author came out and said it wasn't about one skin color. However, it was specifically geared toward Katrina victims, who for the most part happened to be black. It also goes on to say, "And of those handful who do manage to make real money in the drug trade, most don’t succeed using the ‘skills’ they grunt about on rap videos." This doesn't specifically come out and say black people, but what racial group is associated with being rappers? (Furthermore, I can not substantiate the fact, but seeing as how the author is so oblivious to how life is for the people he describes, I think he gets things like not having a baby before 21 or married from rap songs/videos.) Thus, while the author does not out and out say poor black people should do these things and they won't live in poverty, his implications make him adversely discriminatory because they are targeted at one race. (It's kind of like when someone goes so hypothetically say Jimmy asked Sally out and Sally said no, but Jimmy thinks she might just be saying that because she thinks he is still with his girlfriend. What should Jimmy do? We all know who Jimmy is don't we?)

I think the author saw repeated clips on the news and was thinking these black people are so damn dumb. If they weren't so poor, they could have made it out, but they're to busy being drug dealers, having babies, and rappers. No doubt, I'm sure his principles would be beneficial, but there are a lot of factors that common sense will tell you that he doesn't have. It's very idealistic for a single, 32 year old white writer that makes $28,000 a year to think, "that would never happen to me, if I was 16 I would go in there, get a job, finish school, and be a success."

What about other factors that will make the inner city what the inner city is? It's a whole lot harder than the writer thinks. A relatively high porportion successes are athletes, rappers, or drug dealers (financially). That's because it's hard for a born and raised project (black) kid to assimilate into middle (white) America. Maybe if there wasn't so many stupid ass people like Jim Farynsworth, it would be a little easier.


So i guess no one can talk about Katrina victims in a critical manner, because they are all black. Is that what your saying? I might be reading you wrong. Heck Bill Cosby can't even level an honest critique to his own. How much do we have to victimize blacks? American Indians have been through worst than blacks in this country, and i'm pretty sure they're not out there worrying about any criticisms they get from their own because of their disparity.

And let me tell you something. It's not Jim Farynsworth that is making it harder for african american youngster to survive in middle america. It's the lack of a stable household with a father. You can call me a racist if you want, but you will have to do the same to all the prominent black politicans and social scientist who agree with my conclusion.

I mean a young black man graduates High school and commits to 35 hrs at whataburger for 900 dollars a month pay. most of the inner city black kids at 18 are living off the property of a good black mother absent a father who could provide extra income to help for in expenses or guidance. So after working dead end jobs and seeing how one can work as hard as one can and still have his efforts be overlooked by management,(Who also happened to be BLack) one would then have their self esteem blown to bits about their future. And when it comes to finding love from the opposite sex one is limited because of their lack of income. SO any relationship the man will enter will always have issues with his self esteem and lack of providing for a woman. THe man is then frustrated early on and learns from experience never to trust any female but his own mother. He sleeps around with as many women as he can, and in the process sprouts his seed around the city.(Statistics have verified that the african american community has a high percentage of children born out of wedlock and fatherless). When the young man finally settles down with a woman, he has'nt really learned alot of financial responsiblity or has saved any money. His white counterpart (or black, who had a father) could of saved money more than his black peer since likely his parents would of covered his expenses while he was under their roof, leaving any money he earned eligible to put in a checking and savings account. Having a father and a better support system could of been all that the young black man needed to establish good credit and have a respectable savings account. But that's not the case.

The black man sees that there is nothing to save for since he doesn't see a light at the end of the tunnel. Now before many of you jump on me with generalizations about my percieved generalizations, there are exceptions to any rule, and having a father or a strong support system is not a sure guarantee for succeding since alot of that is based on the individual. Also there have been many young black men who have overcome the hardest obstacles that could be thrown at anybody and are now CEO's, executives, and Doctors. That being said, not everyone is strong minded in any racial category to overcome the hardest obstacles. And not having a father in the house and a decent income, is a large reason why many young black males struggle in many situations that involve perserverance in life.

[SA210]

:rolleyes

[gtownspur]

What's wrong with saying that having fatherless children is a big factor in poverty since 99.9% of sociologist would agree.

NM, You'll probably read what i posted as.." What's wrong with saying that blacks have no fathers and deserve to be poor, those poor destitute bastards!"

Don't waste your effort.

I'll give you a one liner that you always use to try to refute me.

"Why are you so full of hate. I'm glad I'm a volunteer unlike you you scumbag. I just wish you'd see the light on how i'm so compassionate and loving."

All you have to do now is cut and paste and post a rolleyes icon.

THere! Now you can say that I'm not such a bad guy after all.

You can thank me for the 30 minutes i'll save your brain to crank gears and post an incoherent post.

[SA210]

^^^ Why are you so angry? :lmao

[jochhejaam]

Thanks for telling me the content of every JJ and Sharpton speech in the past thirty years. You really showed how they never talk about staying in school or out of jail. Why bring shit up if you aren't going to back it up?
That's an absurd request and since I never alledged that they had "never" talked about staying in school why should I provide documentation that they did? Answer: No need to and therefore no need to back it up. Hello?!

How about you providing where I said they "never" talk about these things?
Should be easy for you to do that since my posts were within the last 24 hours and not over the last 30 years.

[gtownspur]

^^^ Why are you so angry? :lmao
Whose angry. I'm having a blasts pointing out your weak takes. :lol

[Kori Ellis]

I just want to comment on this first point made in the article:


1) Attend High School, Pay Attention, and Graduate. You notice, they didn’t say you have to do well in high school, just don't drop out. They didn’t say you have to attend Harvard, or even attend college at all. They didn’t say you have to make the honor roll, be on the football team, or in the band. Just be furniture. Show up and graduate.

This is the most stupid point to make if you are trying to give someone a lesson on how to not "end up poor".

This author is saying that you should just go to school and skate through .. "Just be furniture".

Never in my life have I ever been asked to show my HS Diploma in the job market. Not when I was 18 years old, or anytime in the 20 years since. Sure, it says on a job application "Do you have a HS Diploma or a GED?" and everyone just marks "yes" and that's the end of the story.

But if you are trying to stress to someone that education is important in order to get a job, telling them to just coast through high school and just get a diploma isn't good advice.

The author of the article should have said either:

1. Concentrate on your high school studies and do well, so that you can get into college.

or

2. Learn a trade while in high school or shortly thereafter.

Because in reality, just getting a high school diploma doesn't make you any closer to getting a job (avoiding being poor) than if you just dropped out of high school in 10th grade.

[jochhejaam]

I just want to comment on this first point made in the article:



This is the most stupid point to make if you are trying to give someone a lesson on how to not "end up poor".

This author is saying that you should just go to school and skate through .. "Just be furniture".

Never in my life have I ever been asked to show my HS Diploma in the job market. Not when I was 18 years old, or anytime in the 20 years since. Sure, it says on a job application "Do you have a HS Diploma or a GED?" and everyone just marks "yes" and that's the end of the story.

But if you are trying to stress to someone that education is important in order to get a job, telling them to just coast through high school and just get a diploma isn't good advice.

The author of the article should have said either:

1. Concentrate on your high school studies and do well, so that you can get into college.

or

2. Learn a trade while in high school or shortly thereafter.

Because in reality, just getting a high school diploma doesn't make you any closer to getting a job (avoiding being poor) than if you just dropped out of high school in 10th grade.
I agree, the HS my son attended had 4 different diplomas and one of them was a "certificate of completion" which you could get even with flunking grades your senior year. That's a degree that leads to no where, ridiculous.
He also failed to stress the importance of support/encouragement from family/parents, that's not a given by any means.

[RandomGuy]

Also, I don't see it as a "blame the poor" mentality.

I see it as a "hope for the poor" study.

It shows that limited wealth, and a brighter future, is not as elusive as some might have them believe.

Funny that you use the word hope.

That is the one thing that usually gets extinguished in children at an early age by crushing poverty. The other day I read an interesting op-ed piece in the Chicago tribune by a reporter who had grown up in just such circumstances.

She said that the only difference between herself and the people she grew up with was that her mother kept hope alive in herself and that carried over to her daughter.

Also, knowing a bit about statistical methods, I would say that the study that this whole thread is based on is probably being taken out of context by the "blame the poor" crowd.

It is one thing to statistically analyze poverty, quite another to come up with realistic solutions for it.