Raise #6 To The Rafters Now!!!

[bigzak25]

Avery does not need any extra motivation come May.

He DESERVES to be next to #50 and #32.

He hit the shot. He helped lead our team.
He was the reason Mario Ellie was here.

Raise his JERSEY NOW POP! DO IT! DO IT NOW!!! :smokin

[bigzak25]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/buck/image/play/av616.jpg

"thas righ errybuddy, raise my muthafuckin jersey fo i tear the spurs a new asshole come may...don't piss me off...i'm the lil general and you don't want me angry..."

[CharlieMac]

"Mah-ri-o"

[ShoogarBear]

Is this a conspiracy to get whottt's head to explode tonight?

[exstatic]

Um, I think it's already on the docket. Word is: March.

[bigzak25]

Uhm...thanks ex!

I say they do it sooner. :tu

[exstatic]

Uhm...thanks ex!

I say they do it sooner. :tu

I dont think they really care what you think, BZ. :lol

[j-6]

Um, I think it's already on the docket. Word is: March.

The Mavs play in SA on March 2nd and April 7th this season.

[bigzak25]

I dont think they really care what you think, BZ. :lol


wow...well, i guess we are all just wasting our time on this message board then huh ex? :angel :lol

just tell me YOU don't give a shit what i think. at least that's honest.

me? i like you man. and even though you are part liberal scum? :p :lmao

we are all still part of the Spurs brotherhood man. :tu :smokin :elephant

so go spurs go! :drunk

[T Park]

If number 6 is retired, the freakin standards for retiring numbers is out the goddamn windown.

[T Park]

you are part liberal scum

He may be a liberal,

but I dont think, if he had a wife, he would treat her as badly as you do you twisted weirdo.

[bigzak25]

He may be a liberal,

but I dont think, if he had a wife, he would treat her as badly as you do you twisted up. cuz i'll still love you brother.

but keep poking the bear.
weirdo.


your all talk mr. Tpark.

if your a MAN?

say that to my FACE outside of one of the GTG's.

tick tock bitch. :lol

i'll kick your ass, then help you up. :tu

i stll love you brother, but keep poking the bear...:lol

[T Park]

No problem.

Ill say it to your face.


But, youll beat me up for me saying the truth??

Thats quite "manly" of you big zak. :rolleyes

[Brutalis]

He may be a liberal,

but I dont think, if he had a wife, he would treat her as badly as you do you twisted weirdo.
Why would ya bring someones wife into this? Even if he does treat her like a bitch, why bring it up like that?

That's just asking for it where I'm from anyways. That's my 2 cents.

[baseline bum]

AJ's a Spurs legend and deserves his number in the rafters. People treat him like he was Vinny Del Negro or something. AJ may not have had a jump shot outside of the 98 and 99 playoffs, but he was always someone who could penetrate and dish.

[bigzak25]

No problem.

Ill say it to your face.


But, youll beat me up for me saying the truth??

Thats quite "manly" of you big zak. :rolleyes

I apologize for my outburst. It is not who I am.

I am more pissed at myself right now than you know.

for the record? i won't ever beat you up physically, Tpark. I promise.

however, if you ever want to get personal, just do it to my face,

that's all i ask.

as for MY Business at home? That's NONE of yours from this point on.

I forgive you for the way you are...i know you cannot help it.

now Godbless you Tpark. Go Spurs Go.

and because i'd hate to hijack this thread off topic?



GET AJ'S JERSEY IN DA RAFTERS!


NOW POPDAMNIT, NOW!

[Triumph]

AJ didn't do anything but hit the Game Winning Shot that brought home the 1st Spurs Championship.

He didn't do anything but bring in some balls with Mario Ellie.

He didn't do anything but be the Vocal Leader when David Robinson was too soft to do it.

It's way past time. Raise your glasses, and Raise #6.

OR face the wrath of my poop. :lol

Your choice, but choose wisely.





----------------------------------------


http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/marty_burns/03/19/nelson.reax/p1_nelson-avery-getty.jpg
Tpark a hateful muthafukka, ain't he?

[Brutalis]

If AJ becomes a great coach, with success for many years he will get in. Til then, nah uh.

[George W. Bush]

How quickly some of the 'supposed' fans of the Spurs turn on their own.

Now that there is just a gosh darn shame. :depressed

[alamo50]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7155/card9cq.jpg

:lol

[Vashner]

Ok let's settle down. Name calling is one thing but no one needs a RL fight. It's not worth it.

Ok so maybe we find a place with a mud pit and get drunk and beat the hell out of each other. Ya know best friends the next day.

[pache100]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/buck/image/play/av616.jpg

"thas righ errybuddy, raise my muthafuckin jersey fo i tear the spurs a new asshole come may...don't piss me off...i'm the lil general and you don't want me angry..."

Avery would not use that kind of language.

[TOP-CHERRY]

If number 6 is retired, the freakin standards for retiring numbers is out the goddamn windown.
I agree.

[SequSpur]

A couple of points from me:

-Avery Johnson was a shitty point guard.
-Tpark is right that the standards of jersey retirement would have to be thrown out in order for Avery's number to be retired.
-What happens at home should stay at home.

[ShoogarBear]

That's three points.

[SequSpur]

a manu tres'

:)

[Mr. Defense]

A couple of points from me:

-Avery Johnson was a shitty point guard.
-Tpark is right that the standards of jersey retirement would have to be thrown out in order for Avery's number to be retired.
-What happens at home should stay at home.


fair enough, That's YOUR opinion.

now a few points of my own, i wish to make.

1st AJ was NOT a Shitty point guard. He helped lead this team and he made clutch baskets. He even attacks the rim better than Tony Parker does, although not as quick. BTW, the NEXT Clutch shot Tony hits in the Finals will be his 1st. :tu

2nd. Who's Standards? Yours? :lol TParks? :lmao

You once called Manu, Manure. You said it was over when our Spurs lost 1 game to the Nuggest in the playoffs last year. Tpark said it was over vs. Seattle. Then did he learn his lesson? Nope. Said it was over vs Detroit too.

And then took it further by saying 'Fuck the Spurs'.

For Shame.

I'll tell you this.
AVERY epitomizes the Spurs Standard for excellence and Achievement
in the face of all odds.

You people are BLINDED by Stats.

People like you give Players like Kobe more credit than Players like Bruce Bowen.

Bowen has more heart.

Avery is All Heart.

I GUARANTEE YOU David Robinson would LOVE to have AJ up there.

I GUARANTEE YOU Sean Elliot would LOVE to have AJ up there.

If AJ is Good enough for THEM?

Then it's good enough for me as well.

And it's DAMN SURE Good enough for ALL TRUE SPURS FANS.

cuz if not? check youself, and don't let the door hit you on the ass either.

[T Park]

as for MY Business at home? That's NONE of yours from this point on

No problem.

Just don't bring it in the forum anymore.



Avery Johnson was a shitty point guard

He wasn't shitty.

But, he wasnt jersey retirement good.


From everyone I have talked to who has attended a GTG, I have heard TPark is quieter than a graveyard. Dude, anyone can be a hardass on the internet. Step up big man.

Thats because no one I have a beef with comes to the GTGs.

Sequ??

I know hes all hot air, and have never threatened him.

[T Park]

cuz if not? check youself, and don't let the door hit you on the ass either.



So, if you don't think AJ's number is retireable, we should leave???


Get a new line jack.


Tpark said it was over vs. Seattle. Then did he learn his lesson? Nope. Said it was over vs Detroit too.


Oh yeah, I learned my lesson.

Big bad ol wittle t park boy what a meany.



Two words Scooter, MOVE ON.

[ThugJohnson]

So, if you don't think AJ's number is retireable, we should leave???


Get a new line jack.



Oh yeah, I learned my lesson.

Big bad ol wittle t park boy what a meany.



Two words Scooter, MOVE ON.


Man TPizzle, you got so much hate in you, your bloated.

Did I slap yo mama or somethin?

I helped bring home a Championship to the team you supposedly cheer for, although i know your on again off again.

And don't be calling people 'Jack' or 'Scooter' kay.

Those are really really offensive. :lol

[The Hustler]

Two words Scooter, MOVE ON.



:lmao


YOU FIRST, 'scooter'. :lol


why don't you scoot your ass to a forum that suits you.

try www.bandwagonassholes.com (http://www.spursreport.com/forums/) :tu

[Tek_XX]

I think AJ is a maverick now, he doesn't seem to be to thankful to the Spurs for giving him a chance. And i agree the Spurs have the weakest requirments for retiring a jersey.

[bigzak25]

he doesn't seem to be to thankful to the Spurs for giving him a chance.


ok. i hear what you are saying. but could you provide some substance behind that comment. Some quotes of AJ's or some negative feeling or actions that he may have displayed towards our Spurs. Thanks in advance. :tu

[Trainwreck2100]

Avery should hang from the rafters, a fitting punishment for traitors.




It works on pirates too.






And people impersonating clerics of the state.

[whottt]

ok. i hear what you are saying. but could you provide some substance behind that comment. Some quotes of AJ's or some negative feeling or actions that he may have displayed towards our Spurs. Thanks in advance. :tu


THey're sending a boy to do a man's job - Avery Johnson on Tony Parker

These words have long since been shoved up AJ's ass by Tony Parker and the Spurs.

Let him make his own number - Avery Johnson upon hearing the Spurs had yanked the #6 jersey out of rookie guard Manu Ginbili's hands after excessive fan bitching aboutthe Spurs *accidentally* giving Manu Ginobili his #6 jersey.

Likewise....these words too have since been shoved up Avery Johnson's ass(and how), by the mercurial Ginobili.

Other great moments in AJ history...bullying second year player Malik Rose, including a shoutdown episode where he went off saying, "it's my team".

Um no fucker...this was never your team, this was David Robinson's team, this was Tim Duncan's team, this was George Gervin's team...but it was never fucking Avery fucking Johnson's team, no matter how much bigger your mouth was than your game...and it is only by the grace of David Robinson that you had as much of a career as you did...I think you for Mario Elie, I only wish you could have done it sooner, like say, 1995,...and brought along Sam Casell as well..


Getting a chip on his shoulder over, correctly, losing his starting job to Terry Porter in 2001...compounding that selfish and unspurlike move by then getting schelacked by Derek Fisher in the 2001 WCF...


Taking the money and running in 2001...you notice you didn't hear anyone saying they missed him...and it took us what...a year to win a title with a 20 year old playing his position?


Oh yeah...and going to our arch fucking enemy as an assistant coach when he was offered the same position here...He didn't just go to any team...he went to our #1 fucking instate nemesis...

AJ's an asshole. Face it...this guy about as much of a true Spur as Karl Malone.

I propose a compromise...how about we move all the retired jersey's to the mensroom and not retire Avery's? It'll still destroy the concept of retired Jersey's like the AJ fans want...only it'll still leave them with the tiniest singularity of respectability...

Ahh I guess I ask too much of the AJ fans...they obviously don't want any respectability for those jerseys.

[SequSpur]

Praise to Ala Whott.

:kneel

:tu

[Kori Ellis]

The Spurs organization has already nearly came out and said that AJ's jersey will be retired soon. He was a great leader while he was here. He wasn't the best point guard around, but he fought hard and he was a winner.

He's very respected within the organization and very close to Pop, David Robinson, and most other key people within the Spurs.

I'm not a huge AJ fan, but the AJ haters need to get used to the fact that his jersey WILL be going up. I'm guessing it will be next season.

[Trainwreck2100]

The Spurs organization has already nearly came out and said that AJ's jersey will be retired soon. He was a great leader while he was here. He wasn't the best point guard around, but he fought hard and he was a winner.




He wasn't even in the top 15 best in the league, any of the years he played, ever.

[Kori Ellis]

He wasn't even in the top 15 best in the league, any of the years he played, ever.

Really?

How about the season he averaged over 13 points on 50 percent shooting and 9.6 apg? He wasn't in the top 15 that year?

Stop talking nonsense.

[SequSpur]

Avery was a decent point guard, a great community guy and he was on the 99 team.

He still doesn't deserve jersey retirement.

Statistics do come into play and Whott does bring up some valid reasons.

You could make an argument that if the Spurs had a better point guard, they would've, could've, should've won more.

[whottt]

The Spurs organization also gave Manu Ginobili AJ's jersey upon his signing...

In the immortal words of Greg Poppovich at the press conference, AS he handed that jersey to Manu...

"The last guy that wore this jersey hit a shot to win a title"...

Yeap...the Spurs always intended to retire his jersey...and the Harris mafia had nothing to do with it.


I have long accepted the fact that AJ's jersey was going to hang, I consoled myself with the fact that others had felt before as I do know...like say all the people in Germany circa 1933, that weren't Nazis...

But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

AJ was, and is, a little bully, who picks on younger players and tries to indimidate them to make himself feel like a bigman, who takes advantage of the gestures of nice guys to put himself over as something special, while putting them down...He gets away with it because, well frankly, he's funny, he looks funny, he talks funny, but the intent behind his words is seen easily enough, as are his comments when looked at without the benefit of Silver and Black lenses...

There is nothing about this guy, that he did for this organization, that this organization didn't do for him as well tenfold, and there is nothing that makes him a great Spur...Yes he worked hard, yes he knows the game, but he's still nothing but a little bully in my eyes...no matter how funny he talks...and he never exhibited anything remotely close to loyalty to this organization IMO...Hell Rasho took a paycut to come here...when did AJ ever take a paycut? He took the $$$ and flipped the bird at both this organization and rookie players that never did a damn thing to him...that's AJ...no matter how funny he talks.

[T Park]

How about the season he averaged over 13 points on 50 percent shooting and 9.6 apg? He wasn't in the top 15 that year?


Agreed.

He was pretty damn good that year.

For a while Avery was neck and neck with some of the best.

But 2 or 3 good years doesn't equal a jersey retirement.


ive come to grips with it, but Im still not going to like it.



In the immortal words of Greg Poppovich at the press conference, AS he handed that jersey to Manu...

"The last guy that wore this jersey hit a shot to win a title"...



I remember Don Harris riding pop's ass on that quote and then saying

"Who the hell is Manu Ginobili?? Hes nothing, and prob wont amount to much."

DONTCHA JUST WISH HE WAS ON THE RADIO AGAIN SO WE COULD BRING THIS UP!!!!


Damn, missed my chance.

[Victor Newman]

Whottt , did Avery turn you down for an auto? It sounds like your bitter about something.

[whottt]

Whottt , did Avery turn you down for an auto? It sounds like your bitter about something.


Well he pretty much crapped on my franchise worse than Derek Anderson or Dennis Rodman ever did...

But more importantly he spawned a breed of fan this say crap like this:







He didn't do anything but be the Vocal Leader when David Robinson was too soft to do it.

I didn't really hate AJ until people cannonized him for talking funny and started trying to cram his jersey down my throat...and dissing DRob trying to put him over...like he himself did.

I'll stomach(not accept) AJ's jersey hanging up there if he man's up and says he owes his fucking career to Drob, thus straightening out his deranged fan base...but he's not going to do that...because he's AJ.

[bigzak25]

whottt, accept it, or don't.

nobody is gonna give a fuck either way.

The Jersey will hang soon.

And Spursfans will Cheer.

You'll be one of the few bitter aholes with a tear in your beer. Ain't it Great! :lol


Well he pretty much crapped on my franchise worse than Derek Anderson or Dennis Rodman ever did.

Peter Holt? Is that you?

what is this your franchise shit?

This is OUR team. And since you have hate for the Starting PG on our 1st Championship team. Your opinion in this thread is null and void. :lol

But good job whottt. You got Tpark and Sequ in your back pocket. You must be doing something right....riiiiight.:lmao

[SequSpur]

Let's see, according to methodology of reason to retires Avery's number, then the following Spurs should have the same bestowage of jersey retirage:

Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili
Robert Horry

What about former Spurs that gave alot to the community and played multiple years as a Spur?

As far as I am concerned, Pop gave that number away to Manu and his followers cried like beyitches.

[Tek_XX]

So if you disagree with hangin the jersey, you're a hater. Sorry but the spurs need to grow up when it comes to hangin jerseys, we're starting to hang banners, we're not small time ABA shit here any longer. We hit the big time and only the big time players need to hang up there.

AJ needs to hang up in the Dallas Arena, cause that's clearly where his allegiance lies, and i think he could care less about the Spurs.

[bigzak25]

Let's see, according to methodology of reason to retires Avery's number, then the following Spurs should have the same bestowage of jersey retirage:

Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili
Robert Horry

What about former Spurs that gave alot to the community and played multiple years as a Spur?

As far as I am concerned, Pop gave that number away to Manu and his followers cried like beyitches.


If I had my way? Yeah, Bruce's and Manu's will hang right next to TD's one day.


Parker ain't done shit yet. Horry is a mercenary. I'd hang steve kerr's before Horry's. :lol

[bigzak25]

So if you disagree with hangin the jersey, you're a hater. Sorry but the spurs need to grow up when it comes to hangin jerseys, we're starting to hang banners, we're not small time ABA shit here any longer. We hit the big time and only the big time players need to hang up there.

AJ needs to hang up in the Dallas Arena, cause that's clearly where his allegiance lies, and i think he could care less about the Spurs.


yes yes, so your insecure cuz Avery is coach of the Mavs. we get it.

what are you 12?

grow up.

Avery is Man.

He wanted to coach.

Last i checked, the Spurs got a coach.

So AJ stayed in TEXAS, since his home is in houston, i believe, and got a job.

You think the Spurs are bigtime? Just cuz we got 3 Obriens now?

Then you don't KNOW Spurs basketball.

It's all about being humble dawg. Go root for the Lakers. :lmao

[Mark in Austin]

As far as I am concerned, Pop gave that number away to Manu and his followers cried like beyitches.


True.

[LittleGeneral]

Where's timvp when you need him? :)

[pache100]

And it's DAMN SURE Good enough for ALL TRUE SPURS FANS.

Absolutamente! And, well said (the whole thing), BTW!

NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact.


I think AJ is a maverick now, he doesn't seem to be to thankful to the Spurs for giving him a chance.

How do you figure that? He's not supposed to ever work in the NBA any more in his whole life if he can't work for the Spurs? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think what Avery is doing now is a tribute to his years on the Spurs and what he learned from Pop.

[GoSpurs21]

I'll tell you this.
AVERY epitomizes the Spurs Standard for excellence and Achievement
in the face of all odds.if you think getting a huge head and thinking he was above the team is Spurs standard for excellence, you are clearly mistaken. AJ was a mediocer point guard at best, he had one good year and that was it. It is mainly AJ's fault that the Spurs were eliminated in every year except 99 from the playoffs. All the other point gaurds in the league made AJ look silly especially an older John Stocton. AJ does not deserve to have his number retired. But probably will cause lame ass fans who remember with there hearts and not their heads (see Don Hairless for prime example of these types of sheep/fans) he probably will. If that happens I will sit through the entire ceremony in protest.

I do not wish to see AJ's number retired as hitting the winning shot in the 99 finals is not enough to warrent it. And since AJ doesnt have any other outstanding accomplishments he should not have his number retired. (besides there is no room for it or AJs enormous head). You can't retire someone number if they have never been an all-star, especially if they coach one of your rivals.


NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact.hey clueless name one player on the current team that played with AJ other than Tim. Guess what your statement is so full of shit you need boots and a nose plug just to read it.

[pache100]

hey clueless name one player on the current team that played with AJ other than Tim. Guess what your statement is so full of shit you need boots and a nose plug just to read it.

Only a clueless person would ask a clueless question like that. Where did I say that anyone on the Spurs (other than Tim) played with AJ?

Please get a clue before calling others clueless. And just because you don't understand a statement, does not mean it's "full of shit".

Is rudeness/stupidity a daily requirement for you?

[GoSpurs21]

Only a clueless person would ask a clueless question like that. Where did I say that anyone on the Spurs (other than Tim) played with AJ?

Please get a clue before calling others clueless. And just because you don't understand a statement, does not mean it's "full of shit".

Is rudeness/stupidity a daily requirement for you?so then please explain to me how every Spurs player owes where they are to AJ. I guess my BSEE from UTSA never covered this round about statement.

"NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact."

what the hell does this statement mean?

[Mixability]

Sean Elliott shouldn't even be up in the rafters, much less Avery. Yeah, he was a fan favorite, but cmon, to be up there with Iceman and Admiral, it just takes away from their glory. I'm surprised that we didn't have a picket line when Van Exel chose his jersey number. :rolleyes

[Despot]

oh no......I hope Malik does not retire for another 20 years so everyone forgets about him and a repeat of this conversation does not happen.

I have nothing against Avery, and I don't really mind either way, but I probably lean more to not letting it get retired, only because it seems like cheating to get more banners up, it needs to come naturally, and in the direction we are headed, it will.
With that said, I do believe that Avery is the reason why we won it all in 99, I'm not just talking about the finals shot, but about his motivational skills. But to me it's like retiring Horry's number, although I respect him, it just doesn't seem to fit, unless he plays with us another 5 years for another 5 ships. If that happens retire every player that played in that span, even training camp bodies and 10 day contract guys.

Out of curiosity, anyone know off hand how many times Avery signed, to come here, and how many times we traded for him? Was he a free agent when he went to Dallas? I vaguely remember talk about the Spurs wanting to get him again.

[pache100]

"NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact."

Um...geez...do you HAVE an imagination? Let's see...without Avery...that the Spurs would not have won the first Championship (and they would probably not have won the two additional ones without that first one). That the Spurs, AS A TEAM (if you can grasp the concept) would not be where they are right now. Timmy might have/most probably would have signed with another team when he was a FA. David may have (probably would have) retired earlier than he did, especially if Tim Duncan wasn't a Spur. Manu would probably be playing somewhere else, and so would Tony (more likely, no one would have heard of either of them, still); Oberto would still be in Europe. For sure Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel would not be here; the only reason they are here now is because they want a ring/the opportunity to play with Tim Duncan (even if they do not show that on their list of reasons for signing with the Spurs). Hell, we may not even still have Pop as a coach if they had not won that first Championship.

Generally speaking...I hate people who make being an asshole into a vocation.

[GoSpurs21]

Um...geez...do you HAVE an imagination? Let's see...without Avery...that the Spurs would not have won the first Championship (and they would probably not have won the two additional ones without that first one). That the Spurs, AS A TEAM (if you can grasp the concept) would not be where they are right now. Timmy might have/most probably would have signed with another team when he was a FA. David may have (probably would have) retired earlier than he did, especially if Tim Duncan wasn't a Spur. Manu would probably be playing somewhere else, and so would Tony (more likely, no one would have heard of either of them, still); Oberto would still be in Europe. For sure Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel would not be here; the only reason they are here now is because they want a ring. Hell, we may not even still have Pop as a coach if they had not won that first Championship.

Generally speaking...I hate people who make being an asshole into a vocation.That's what thought you meant. Again this is not a fact it is your bullshit opinion. AJ was the least person in 99 championship team starting line up that helped win the championship. Hell it could be said that any other top 20 PG in the league could have also jointed the other 4 for the championship run. Hell JJ contributed more than AJ.

As for all those other things that happened afterward, AJ had less to do with the success than your brain cells did when typing your lame ass explanation.

I dont hate AJ. I just don't blindly believe he is the end all to be all like some of you sheeps. Go back to believing that Saddam had WMDs and leave those of us who know what reality is discuss the truth with open minds.

If you cant handle the truth maybe when you grow up you will be lucky enough to no longer be blind and be able to look at things more objectively when making observations or statements.

[pache100]

Again this is not a fact it is your bullshit opinion.

And what do you call what you post??????

THAT is the point I'm trying to make. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid. We are all entitled to our OPINIONS. But, that's all they are. Even yours.

[sungo99]

Um...geez...do you HAVE an imagination? Let's see...without Avery...that the Spurs would not have won the first Championship (and they would probably not have won the two additional ones without that first one). That the Spurs, AS A TEAM (if you can grasp the concept) would not be where they are right now. Timmy might have/most probably would have signed with another team when he was a FA. David may have (probably would have) retired earlier than he did, especially if Tim Duncan wasn't a Spur. Manu would probably be playing somewhere else, and so would Tony (more likely, no one would have heard of either of them, still); Oberto would still be in Europe. For sure Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel would not be here; the only reason they are here now is because they want a ring/the opportunity to play with Tim Duncan (even if they do not show that on their list of reasons for signing with the Spurs). Hell, we may not even still have Pop as a coach if they had not won that first Championship.

Avery Johnson is also the man responsible for the rise in housing costs and he invented nano-technology.

[Tek_XX]

Three championship rings=Tim Duncan arriving with the team, not Avery Johnson's exceptional point guard work which didn't seem to get us anywhere before that. So other than that we need to retire the jersey cuse he was a standup guy who did community work, well if that's the standard we got to retire every freakin spur maybe beside Rodman.

[GoSpurs21]

And what do you call what you post??????

THAT is the point I'm trying to make. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid. We are all entitled to our OPINIONS. But, that's all they are. Even yours.my opinion is that AJ had nothing to due with the success of the Spurs after he left, that is a fact. He wasnt here, so he in no way contributed to the success of the 03 and 05 teams (that is a fact).

If AJ was so great how come he never got the Spurs to the championship in all the other years he was our PG (fact). It's because he always got owned in the playoffs by all star PGs.

You do know that Tim Duncan was real happy when AJ was released as a free agent. You did know that AJ had pretty much worn out his welcome when it came to TD didnt you?

You need to show some real facts that he did to argue your point. If and buts are not facts.

[pache100]

... and he invented nano-technology.

No, that was Admiral Grace Hopper.

[pache100]

my opinion is that AJ had nothing to due with the success of the Spurs after he left, that is a fact. He wasnt here, so he in no way contributed to the success of the 03 and 05 teams (that is a fact).

The only thing that is fact there is that those are your opinions.


You need to show some real facts that he did to argue your point. If and buts are not facts.

You have not shown any facts here, either, but that doesn't seem to be bothering you.


I'm done here. You will never see that your opinion is not worth more than anyone else's opinion. You cannot agree to disagree.

[GoSpurs21]

^^^
thats the best thing about argueing with an idiot, they keep proving your point.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Um...geez...do you HAVE an imagination? Let's see...without Avery...that the Spurs would not have won the first Championship (and they would probably not have won the two additional ones without that first one). That the Spurs, AS A TEAM (if you can grasp the concept) would not be where they are right now. Timmy might have/most probably would have signed with another team when he was a FA. David may have (probably would have) retired earlier than he did, especially if Tim Duncan wasn't a Spur. Manu would probably be playing somewhere else, and so would Tony (more likely, no one would have heard of either of them, still); Oberto would still be in Europe. For sure Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel would not be here; the only reason they are here now is because they want a ring/the opportunity to play with Tim Duncan (even if they do not show that on their list of reasons for signing with the Spurs). Hell, we may not even still have Pop as a coach if they had not won that first Championship.

Generally speaking...I hate people who make being an asshole into a vocation.
are you serious??? What the hell are you talking about??? are you deranged? How... when... why... oh forget it. This post is so stupid its signature worthy!

[pache100]

are you serious??? What the hell are you talking about??? are you deranged? How... when... why... oh forget it.

Not really. Are you?

At least I don't call people "idiots" or "deranged" because they see things differently than me.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Not really. Are you?

At least I don't call people "idiots" or "deranged" because they see things differently than me.
I was just trying to make sense out of you post man. You made absolutely none! I don't get it, were you high when you typed that post?

[Tek_XX]

Um...geez...do you HAVE an imagination? Let's see...without Avery...that the Spurs would not have won the first Championship (and they would probably not have won the two additional ones without that first one). That the Spurs, AS A TEAM (if you can grasp the concept) would not be where they are right now. Timmy might have/most probably would have signed with another team when he was a FA. David may have (probably would have) retired earlier than he did, especially if Tim Duncan wasn't a Spur. Manu would probably be playing somewhere else, and so would Tony (more likely, no one would have heard of either of them, still); Oberto would still be in Europe. For sure Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel would not be here; the only reason they are here now is because they want a ring/the opportunity to play with Tim Duncan (even if they do not show that on their list of reasons for signing with the Spurs). Hell, we may not even still have Pop as a coach if they had not won that first Championship.

Generally speaking...I hate people who make being an asshole into a vocation.

Get off the crack dude. You speak of facts, where the hell are they in this piece of nonsense.

[conqueso]

Thought I'd throw this into the mix:

Johnny Moore career stats (with SA):
80-81: 07.4 ppg - 04.5 apg - 50-23 Spurs record (w/Ice and Silas)
81-82: 09.4 ppg - 09.6 apg - 48-34 (w/Ice and Mitchell)
82-83: 12.2 ppg - 09.8 apg - 53-29 (w/Ice, Mitchell, and Gilmore)
83-84: 10.1 ppg - 09.6 apg - 37-45 (w/Ice, Mitchell, and Gilmore)
84-85: 12.8 ppg - 10.0 apg - 41-41 (w/Ice, Mitchell, and Gilmore)
85-86: 13.0 ppg - 09.0 apg - 35-47 (w/Mitchell, Robertson, and Gilmore)
86-87: 08.6 ppg - 04.5 apg - 28-54 (w/Robertson)

Divisional Crowns: 3
NBA Championships: 0

Looking at those stats and comparing them to Ice, Drob, Silas, and even Elliott, you have to wonder why his jersey is in the rafters. Out of those 7 seasons, he led the team in assists per game four times, in steals five times, but never led in any other statistical category.

I mean, why the hell did we retire Moore's number, but not Mike Mitchell's?! He was a thousand times better that Johnny fucking Moore.

Now A.J.'s stats (selected seasons):
92-93: 08.7 ppg - 7.5 apg
94-95: 13.4 ppg - 8.2 apg
95-96: 13.1 ppg - 9.6 apg
96-97: 10.5 ppg - 6.8 apg
97-98: 10.2 ppg - 7.9 apg
99-00: 11.2 ppg - 6.0 apg

Divisional crowns: 3
NBA Championships: 1

Focusing solely on the stats, A.J. appears to have been a slightly better scorer, and slightly worse passer. Obviously he didn't play the type of ridiculous D that Moore played, and obviously Moore couldn't lead the Spurs out of a paper bag.

Now we all know AJ doesn't have the statistical prowess of any other Spur who's had their jersey retired (although his numbers are similar to Moore's). But there's more to this honor than numbers alone. I think that point is self-evident, especially when you consider that Johnny Moore's 00 has been retired. I'm not sure if most people recognize that.

A.J. brought a whole slew of intangibles that don't show up in the box score. First and foremost, he was the undisputed leader of the team that brought a success-starved city its first ever professional sports championship. Everyone who was a Spurs fan then remembers that team, remembers all the wonderful parts about that season. Everyone remembers the 8-8 start, the amazing late season run, the absolute pounding of the Lakers, the Memorial Day Miracle, and A.J.'s championship-clinching shot. He was also the dominant personality on a team featuring two mild-mannered stars, a character that Spurs fans remember fondly.

If the Spurs retired number 6, it would not open the flood gates for a bunch of second-rate Spurs players. Depending on how you look at it, either those flood gates were already opened when 13 and 00 were retired, or the criteria for retirement is not as strigent as some of you seem to think.

So why should the Spurs retire A.J.'s jersey?

Here are some of the reasons people have posted:

- He was an essential part of the best team in Spurs history; AND

- He was an amazing motivator and leader, inspiring his teammates to give their best performances for several seasons; AND

- He was a charismatic, likeable, memorable player who spent ten years with the Spurs; AND

- He was a wonderful addition to the San Antonio community; AND

- He left a definite and indelible positive mark on the Spurs franchise and the city of San Antonio; AND

- He put up numbers were by no means paltry or insignificant, and in fact in some ways were better than the numbers put up by other Spurs retirees; AND

- Other past Spurs greats (i.e. DRob, Elliott, and Kerr) all think his jersey should be retired.

If these justifications aren't significant enough to retire his number, then Johnny Moore should have his jersey taken down and burned at center court. If these reasons don't warrant inclusion in the Spurs Pantheon, the honor is much less meaningful to me, and a large contingent of Spurs fans as well.

EDIT:
Here are some fun facts I forgot to mention in the original post. Avery is the Spurs all-time assist leader. Moore once had a game where he was 26-13-11-9 (that's point, assists, rebounds, and steals). Avery owned the Suns in the first round of the playoffs in 98, averaging 20 and 6. Johnny Moore almost died of "desert fever"...what the hell is that?

[pache100]

If these reasons don't warrant inclusion in the Spurs Pantheon, the honor is much less meaningful to me, and a large contingent of Spurs fans as well.

Thanks for the excellent, well-thought-out, and intelligent post, conqueso!

[ShoogarBear]

I've already said this in several of the umpteen other threads on this topic, but:

1. If it were up to me, the only retired jerseys would be Gervin, Silas, and 5-0. I'd consider Elliott down the road sometime.

2. Given that Moore's is retired (a decision I think management would take back if they could), you have to put AJ up there, too. Moore has set the minimum standard for the Spurs.

3. Both Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon deserve number retirement ahead of Moore, and probably ahead of AJ.

[pache100]

Both Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon deserve number retirement ahead of Moore, and probably ahead of AJ.

I whole-heartedly agree with that!

[Tek_XX]

How bout we un-retire crappy numbers, lets have a fresh start

[pache100]

How bout we un-retire crappy numbers, lets have a fresh start

Get off the crack, dude.

[Tek_XX]

Get off the crack, dude.

I see you haven't responded to my get some facts comment. Guess you didn't have any.

[pache100]

I see you haven't responded to my get some facts comment. Guess you didn't have any.

Show me facts to back up YOUR opinions and you're on. Until then, not so much. Unlike some, I have never represented anything stated here as my opinion as fact.

And, besides, I was just quoting you on the crack thing. Most people don't like it when they get their own shit thrown back at them.

[Spurminator]

I (still) don't really have a position on this, but I would disagree with the assertion that less-than qualified players should have numbers retired as long as someone worse than him has his retired. If I felt that Moore was not a worthy retiree, I wouldn't want to further legitimize it by allowing it to influence many other jersey retirements.

IMO, it would be better to just leave it up there and set a new standard.

[SequSpur]

NONE of the current Spurs would be where they are today without Avery. That is a fact.

:lol :lol :lol

:bang :bang

[pache100]

:lol :lol :lol

:bang :bang

Can you prove that statement wrong? The FACT is, without Avery, they would not have three championships. Whether they would have the other two is debatable, but highly unlikely.

Can you honestly and intelligently believe that all the people (players and coaches) with the Spurs today would be where they are if not for that first championship? If you do, you have some high-powered imagination.

[TOP-CHERRY]

The Spurs would not have 3 championships without Avery? Did I read this correctly??

[SequSpur]

No, you're right, without Avery, Duncan wouldn't have 3 rings, 2 MVPs, etc. etc..

Without Avery, Beno would be baggin groceries.

Without Avery, Rasho would be homeless.

Without Avery, Bowen would be selling cars.

Blah. Blah. Blah....

Dude, that is the worst statement that I have ever read in a Spurs forum, in fact, it tops anything that I could've ever come up with.

[pache100]

No, you're right, without Avery, Duncan wouldn't have 3 rings, 2 MVPs, etc. etc..

Without Avery, Beno would be baggin groceries.

Without Avery, Rasho would be homeless.

Without Avery, Bowen would be selling cars.

Blah. Blah. Blah....

Dude, that is the worst statement that I have ever read in a Spurs forum, in fact, it tops anything that I could've ever come up with.

Exaggeration.

[Spurminator]

The FACT is, without Avery, they would not have three championships.

Well, the same could be said about Stephen Jackson and Robert Horry... Maybe even Speedy Claxton and Steve Kerr. Obviously Avery's contributions to the team were greater, though.

I think jersey retirements should be about all-time fan favorites. In 25 years, will we look back on Avery Johnson as one of the most beloved and important Spurs players in franchise history? If most people believe the answer will be Yes, then his jersey should be retired. I think individual/team success should be part of the equation, but not the most important part.

[TOP-CHERRY]

Dude, that is the worst statement that I have ever read in a Spurs forum, in fact, it tops anything that I could've ever come up with.
No exaggeration.

[pache100]

Well, the same could be said about Stephen Jackson and Robert Horry... Maybe even Speedy Claxton and Steve Kerr. Obviously Avery's contributions to the team were greater, though.

Not arguing that point. The only difference I see is that Avery's contributions were over a longer period of time.


I think jersey retirements about all-time fan favorites. In 25 years, will we look back on Avery Johnson as one of the most beloved and important Spurs players in franchise history? If most people believe the answer will be Yes, then his jersey should be retired. I think individual/team success should be part of the equation, but not the most important part.

What should jersey retirement be about? If not fan support plus individual/team success while that person was an active member of the team roster?


No exaggeration.

Well, once again, opinion becomes fact because someone agrees.

[TOP-CHERRY]

Bill Russell
Isiah Thomas
Hakeem Olajuwon
Magic Johnson
David Robinson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan

^ Heck yes.


...Avery Johnson???

[TOP-CHERRY]

Well, once again, opinion becomes fact because someone agrees.
Did we say it was fact? We share the same opinion. It's still an opinion.

[ShoogarBear]

I (still) don't really have a position on this, but I would disagree with the assertion that less-than qualified players should have numbers retired as long as someone worse than him has his retired. If I felt that Moore was not a worthy retiree, I wouldn't want to further legitimize it by allowing it to influence many other jersey retirements.

IMO, it would be better to just leave it up there and set a new standard.

I would agree if we were talking about election to the Hall of Fame.

For jersey retirements, I tend to be less rigid, and agree that "belovedness" also should be taken into account (although AJ clearly also splits Spurs fans in that regard, too).

[kskonn]

The reason Tim came back was mostly because david robinson agreed to return for another year, not because of Avery. If I recall Avery and Tim really were not that great of friends, they did not like each other much.

but seriously Avery is responsible for the spurs winning three???? If that is really your opionion then more power to you, that is your opionion. I feel that statement is an exageration of Averys accomplishments.

Also Mario was the balls on the team not avery.

And I know that parker has not done shit for the spurs(roll my eyes) execept that defense on Hamilton in game 5 on the last shot, I guess that was ok.

Also Pache--- Tex did list some facts, the spurs did not win a championship in all of the other years avery was there. and he did get STATISTICALLY owned by other point guards in the playoffs.

I personally feel he was the most expendable player out of the starting 5 and out of some of the reserves on that team.

[kskonn]

"belovedness" also should be taken into account (although AJ clearly also splits Spurs fans in that regard, too).


good point. I would bet it is the same among a lot of the people he played with as well.(let me be clearI am stating this as my opinion, not a fact, i have no surveys from former players to back up that statement.)

[pache100]

The reason Tim came back was mostly because david robinson agreed to return for another year, not because of Avery. If I recall Avery and Tim really were not that great of friends, they did not like each other much.

I know why Tim Duncan re-signed with the Spurs, and I never said Avery was directly responsible for that. That's taking my statement out of context. What I said was, I'm not sure he'd have re-signed if they had not won the Championship in 1999; and in a separate statement, I said I felt that Avery was key to them winning that. As for David and Avery not liking each other very much...that may or may not be true. But they ALWAYS respected each other and their respective contributions to the team and the game. I have never heard either of them say anything to the contrary.


but seriously Avery is responsible for the spurs winning three???? If that is really your opionion then more power to you, that is your opionion.

I NEVER said that Avery is responsible for the Spurs winning all three championships. I said they would not have won the first one without him. And it is doubtful they would have won two more if they had not won the first one. And that IS my opinion.


Also Mario was the balls on the team not avery.

I never said Avery was "the balls on the team". Although I like Mario Elle, I don't really have an opinion about whether or not he was "the balls on the team", never thought about it.


Also Pache--- Tex did list some facts, the spurs did not win a championship in all of the other years avery was there. and he did get STATISTICALLY owned by other point guards in the playoffs.

Ok. But, since I never said they would have won championships in all the other years Avery was here, I don't see how that is relevant to my statements. And I have never debated statistics. But, key shots and leadership do not always show up in statistics.

[kskonn]

I know why Tim Duncan re-signed with the Spurs, and I never said Avery was directly responsible for that. That's taking my statement out of context. What I said was, I'm not sure he'd have re-signed if they had not won the Championship in 1999; and in a separate statement, I said I felt that Avery was key to them winning that. As for David and Avery not liking each other very much...that may or may not be true. But they ALWAYS respected each other and their respective contributions to the team and the game. I have never heard either of them say anything to the contrary.



I NEVER said that Avery is responsible for the Spurs winning all three championships. I said they would not have won the first one without him. And it is doubtful they would have won two more if they had not won the first one. And that IS my opinion.



I never said Avery was "the balls on the team". Although I like Mario Elle, I don't really have an opinion about whether or not he was "the balls on the team", never thought about it.



Ok. But, since I never said they would have won championships in all the other years Avery was here, I don't see how that is relevant to my statements. And I have never debated statistics. But, key shots and leadership do not always show up in statistics.

A lot of my post was not directed at you directly it was stuff that I had read throughout, just mentioning that so you knew that I did not think you said the balls thingas well as some other things.

anyway I agree with the key shot, However I feel that really opens up the door to a lot of people, kerr had a series changing performance,horry had a series changing performance. S Jax had a ton of key shots.Sean Elliot...had a series changing performance.

My point: I bet the spurs would have still won that series if Avery had not hit that shot. I know he hit the shot but it was not a series changing shot, the spurs were still up 3-2 if he missed.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Can you prove that statement wrong? The FACT is, without Avery, they would not have three championships. Whether they would have the other two is debatable, but highly unlikely.

Can you honestly and intelligently believe that all the people (players and coaches) with the Spurs today would be where they are if not for that first championship? If you do, you have some high-powered imagination. who is the one with the high powered imagination?? hahaha

I thought you weren't stating FACTS just your opinion http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif hypocrite

[kskonn]

I know why Tim Duncan re-signed with the Spurs, and I never said Avery was directly responsible for that. That's taking my statement out of context. What I said was, I'm not sure he'd have re-signed if they had not won the Championship in 1999; and in a separate statement, I said I felt that Avery was key to them winning that. As for David and Avery not liking each other very much...that may or may not be true. But they ALWAYS respected each other and their respective contributions to the team and the game. I have never heard either of them say anything to the contrary.



.


just for the record I said Tim and Avery in the original Post. David and Avery were great friends.

[Despot]

One thing at a time....Who agrees that Avery was just as important as Tim and David during the 99 Championship run? not based solely on stats.
I have it
1. Tim
2. David
3. Avery
4. Sean

[SequSpur]

Avery was a shitty point guard and it was clearly proved when he left here and had to fend for himself on shitty teams. No Duncan, no Robinson = true colors = shitty point guard.

If Duncan wanted his ass here, he woulda been here. EVERYONE in the organization wanted his ass out of here.

Then it was clearly made public that Ginobili was to get #6 and then Don Harris and others raised a big ass fuss.

I as well as many others that I know, think that Avery was a shitty point guard and if the Spurs coulda found someone else to run this team, they might have been more successful than just a 99 championship, which oh by the way, Avery's shot came on a 4-1 asskicking.

[bigzak25]

Sean Elliott shouldn't even be up in the rafters, much less Avery. Yeah, he was a fan favorite, but cmon, to be up there with Iceman and Admiral, it just takes away from their glory. I'm surprised that we didn't have a picket line when Van Exel chose his jersey number. :rolleyes


you see...THIS is the PROBLEM.

some of you seem to think raising players of admittedly less importance than Ice, DRob, or TD would diminish their legacy.

WRONG.

Ice, DRob and TD's legacies As Spurs are Untouchable.

If i may borrow from a fellow posters screen name.

Ice, Drob and TD's contibutions to the Spurs and quite frankly, to the NBA...


CAN"T BE FADED.

when you realize that? you'll be more at ease with having others up their in the rafters with them....

They'll only BRING UP the legacies of the others...i.e. Sean and soon AJ, and one day Manu, and yeah, i'm hoping Bruce too...but we'll save that for after their retirements...kay....cuz i don't want the haters heads to explode...:lmao

[SequSpur]

Sean Elliott's retirement is border line as well.

[bigzak25]

so is your eligibility to get on amusement park rides. :tu

[GoSpurs21]

Elliot and Moore get free passes cause of the diseases that cut each players careers short. AJ doesnt get that free pass in my book, so again no banner for Mr Overrated.

I really wish the ones that love AJ would go back and watch all the playoffs failures when he was running the team. I watched them live in person and I still think we could have won more with someone just a little more talented than AJ. AJs best move was to take it into the paint againt 3 defenders and turn the ball over. AJ had the worst outside shot. If AJ didnt kiss DRobs ass so much he would never have lasted in the league.

So what if he hit the winning shot in 99 (thats about all he did). I cant even remember who hit the winning shots for the 03 and 05 championships and I was at both games.

[whottt]

It't be one thing if the fandom was by and large either agreeable or indifferent to AJ's jersey being retired...but in the case of AJ, and no other, there is a segment of fandom that is absolutely against his jersey being retired....a small segment, a minority, but a substantial segment nontheless...

The last time there was a poll on this forum asking if AJ's jersey should be retired, AJ got his ass kicked, much to the dismay of TimVP...that was an occurence unique to this board of course...but there are a lot of people that don't want AJ's jersey retired...this was not the case with Elliott...this was not the case with Moore.

And yes...AJ was a shitty PG...oooh wow, his career numbers are better than a guy that was crippled at the age of 28...that's like saying he's an Olympian because he won a Special Olympics race(without a handicap)...

I did see Johnny Moore play...and no fucking way do I take AJ over pre-meningitis Johnny Moore, not even in the same league.

AJ fans should be glad that they ramrodded a crappy jersey down the throats of Spursfans...it's a testament to the power of stupid people in large numbers....but please try have some integrity and not be an embarrassment to Spursfans, by not acting like he did anything to deserve being up there, other than having a mascot like appeal.


I feel my AJ - Hitler comparisons are very valid...we look back on Hitler today and say...how did that blithering idiot get so many devotees, what in the fuck was wrong with those people...

One day we will ask this same question when looking at AJ's jersey up in the rafters...book it.

[conqueso]

Sean Elliott's retirement is border line as well.

Oh no you didn't.

Elliott will be a hall of famer. Not just because he was an All-Star, not just because for a while there he was one of the scariest swing players in the league, but because the mother fucker was 6 months away from dialysis and didn't tell anyone and played professional ball at a high level and nailed the most improbable, memorable, franchise-defining shot in Spurs history. And because he got a kindey transplant and busted his ass to become the first professional athelete ever to return to play after a major organ transplant.

Dialysis isn't a death sentence, but the prospects of living a long and happy life are grim. And he knew about that shit and didn't tell the team doctors who would have never cleared him to play and put together a heroic effort in the regular season and playoffs, hitting a shot that is permanently impressed on the minds of every San Antonio citizen alive.

That accomplishment is bigger than 2 straight MVPs, or $9 million to poor kids on the East Side, or four career scoring titles and a coke problem.

Being a professional basketball player is more than putting the ball in the bucket, or winning rings or individual awards or helping your community, although all of those things are important. Elliott did those things, and he performed miracles on the court that will be remembered by Spurs fans forever, but performed miracles off the court that eclipse anything that any other Spur, nay, any other basketball player, has ever done. He knew that there was a very real possibility, even a probability, that he would not be alive 12 months later, but put it all on the line and came up huge. And then, after being given a second chance on life, worked tirelessly to return to the game. He started his first game back, in the dome against Atlanta. His first points were a drive to the hoop for a slam fucking dunk. More than the M-Day Miracle, that one play perfectly represents Sean as a player and as a person, but even more, it epitomizes the Spurs franchise as a whole, being trounced over and over but finally finding a way to overcome adversity in the end.

I'm sorry to repeat myself so much, but I don't think you understand the magnitude of that accomplishment. That's more than DRob ever did, more than Tim will ever do. You can't put it in the box score, and you can't look at a trophy to confirm that it happened, but it's the most amazing, awe-inspiring thing I have ever witnessed in professional sports. Thousands of Spurs fan feel the same way.

If that's not enough to warrant jersey retirement, if this honor shouldn't be given to a player like Sean, we live in a world with a depressingly warped sense of what's important.

He deserves it just as much as anyone who's up there or who will ever be up there.

Watch this... mms://st11g1.services.att-idns.net/v1/665/2392/nba/spurs/elliott_050306.wmv

then watch this...
http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/real/nba/insideticket/specials/elliott_2_jersey_retirement_050306.smi

...and then tell me you think he's borderline.

[conqueso]

It't be one thing if the fandom was by and large either agreeable or indifferent to AJ's jersey being retired...but in the case of AJ, and no other, there is a segment of fandom that is absolutely against his jersey being retired....a small segment, a minority, but a substantial segment nontheless...

The last time there was a poll on this forum asking if AJ's jersey should be retired, AJ got his ass kicked, much to the dismay of TimVP...that was an occurence unique to this board of course...but there are a lot of people that don't want AJ's jersey retired...this was not the case with Elliott...this was not the case with Moore....

I did see Johnny Moore play...and no fucking way do I take AJ over pre-meningitis Johnny Moore, not even in the same league.

AJ fans should be glad that they ramrodded a crappy jersey down the throats of Spursfans...it's a testament to the power of stupid people in large numbers....but please try have some integrity and not be an embarrassment to Spursfans, by not acting like he did anything to deserve being up there, other than having a mascot like appeal.

I feel my AJ - Hitler comparisons are very valid...we look back on Hitler today and say...how did that blithering idiot get so many devotees, what in the fuck was wrong with those people...

I don't really feel the Hirler argument, and I do agree that some people (no names) have really inflated and overrated AJ's impact on the Spurs. (I mean, seriously, to say that the Spurs wouldn't have that 99 title, or all three, without AJ is at best highly speculative and at worst ludicrous and comical).

But whottt, take a look at that list I compiled of reasons people have come up with for why A.J. should have his jersey retired. I'll reprint it so you don't have to go looking for it:

"- He was an essential part of the best team in Spurs history; AND

- He was an amazing motivator and leader, inspiring his teammates to give their best performances for several seasons; AND

- He was a charismatic, likeable, memorable player who spent ten years with the Spurs; AND

- He was a wonderful addition to the San Antonio community; AND

- He left a definite and indelible positive mark on the Spurs franchise and the city of San Antonio; AND

- He put up numbers were by no means paltry or insignificant, and in fact in some ways were better than the numbers put up by other Spurs retirees; AND

- Other past Spurs greats (i.e. DRob, Elliott, and Kerr) all think his jersey should be retired."

The things mentioned on that list go way way way beyond having a mascot-like appeal.

Which of those do you disagree with?

If you don't disagree with any of those reasons, why do you think they aren't enough to earn the honor of jersey retirement?

I mean, Moore was the fourth option in his best years on a team that got it's ass fucked in the playoffs, if it managed to even make the playoffs.

Yes, AJ did have shitty years, and no, he wasn't the best player in the league at his position. Neither was Moore. Neither was Silas. And yes AJ bombed in the playoffs sometimes, but so did Elliott, and lord knows DRob did.

And as far as Moore goes, he could D up anyone and was a pretty decent passer, but when you say you'd take him over AJ in a heartbeat, I think you're devaluing the impact that a leader has on a group of people uniting to accomplish a common goal. Pop wasn't the voice of that '99 Championship team, as Sean has said. It was AJ. And that means a lot.

[ShoogarBear]

AJ = Hitler?

:lmao :lmao :lmao

whottt (Coyote > DRob) is back, baby!



:tu

[whottt]

Um...the voice of that 99 championship team was Mario Fucking Elie. The reason the Spurs stopped being post season punching bags was Mario Fucking Elie. AJ was here during all those other buttkicking just like Drob and Elliott...

And of course Drob and Elliott...I mean what do you expect them to say? AJ sucked and doesn't deserve to be up there?


But Avery Johnson himself credits Elie with changing the Spurs chemistry...and Drob credited him with it at his jersey retirement...and anyone who has ever listened to Mario Elie talk knows who gave the Spurs a swagger...and it wasn't fucking Avery.

I mean it's not hard to remember that the Spurs started 6-8 and Mario Elie started throwing shitfits about the Spurs playing like pussies. Pop still uses the Mario speech to this day(it's coming soon by the way)...and he was also the first guy to go up to Drob and say, they can't call you soft anymore, after the Spurs won a title.

Mario Elie pretty much jumps anyones ass that bashes Drob..that's a leader there. And he hit fucking dagger after dagger...that was all he hit during that run...was big threes.


And another guy that gets overlooked is Jaren Jackson....Jaren Jackson was the reason we beat the freaking Lakers...he bombed the living shit out of them and even though we swept them, those games were cloooooooooose...You go ask a Lakerfan who they remember more from the 99 playoffs...AJ or JJ...And JJ was Mario's project.


And Moore was a great passer...and the only thing that kept him from being in the discussion as the best PG in the NBA was that his career coincided with some guys named Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas. Moore most definitely could pass...way better than just, "good".

[whottt]

AJ = Hitler?

:lmao :lmao :lmao

whottt (Coyote > DRob) is back, baby!



:tu


Well...I'm probably being a little tough on him*coughadolphcough* but you know what I mean

[Looter]

If AJ is Hitler? Then Pop is Bin laden

[conqueso]

And Moore was a great passer...and the only thing that kept him from being in the discussion as the best PG in the NBA was that his career coincided with some guys named Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas. Moore most definitely could pass...way better than just, "good".

Moore's five best years ('82, '83, '84, '85, '86):

9.6 APG
Spurs PPG over that time period (minus Moore's PPG):
(103.7 + 102.1 + 110.2 + 102.0 + 98.0) / 5 = 103.2 adjusted PPG

Moore assisted on 9 % of the Spurs points.

AJ's five best years ('93, '95, '96, '97, '98):

8.0 APG
Spurs PPG over that time period (minus AJ's PPG):
(96.8 + 93.2 + 90.3 + 80.0 + 82.3) / 5 = 88.5 adjusted PPG

Avery assisted on 9 % of the Spurs points.

I hate nit-picking the stats, but if you look at the total team offense, and the total assists of the main distributor, you can see that the impact Moore had on the Spurs offense with his passing was equal to the impact Avery had on the Spurs offense with his passing. Yes yes, different teams, different eras, I know. Moore might beat AJ one-on-one. The fact remains that his passing was just as important to those Spurs teams of the eighties as Avery's passing was to the Spurs teams of the nineties. Just thought that was interesting.

[whottt]

Conqueso, you seem like a nice enough guy, and I am enjoying some of your stat digging,...as opposed to some of the trite arguments used by other posters in other threads...but trust me on this: You can save your breath on trying to convert or convince me that AJ is a worthy jersey retirment candidate, was a good PG, or was as good as Johnny Moore. I will be the last guy on this board to be convinced of those things, even if you were to factually prove any of them. I appreciate the effort you made to come up with some original and intelligent arguments, and you actually did get me to think for a second...but nope, it's still AJ. I saw AJ play, he just wasn't that good, wasn't a true Spur IMO, and he doesn't deserve his jersey being retired. Very good try though...and if it makes you feel any better, AJ is going to get his jersey retired, so you've got that to look forward too.

[leemajors]

aj had that weird thing going on with his jaw on the court. looked like he was always grinding his teeth or something. i like to post relevant stuff.

[conqueso]

...but nope, it's still AJ. I saw AJ play, he just wasn't that good, wasn't a true Spur IMO, and he doesn't deserve his jersey being retired. Very good try though...and if it makes you feel any better, AJ is going to get his jersey retired, so you've got that to look forward too.

You know, I hate to admit this, but I kinda feel the same way...A.J. really wasn't that good. I guess the only reason I want to see his jersey up there is because I grew up with him as the Spurs PG, and I feel all nostalgic when I think about him. One time during one of those seasons when the Spurs were playing great but destined to fail in the playoffs, I remember AJ got all pissed at some ref and got right up in his face and was chewing his ass out hardcore. He got hit with one tech, kept talking, then got hit with another tech and was emphatically ejected. The next night AJ was interviewed on KENS 5 about it, and he was wearing this t-shirt that said "GOD is GOOD" in HUGE letters across his chest. He spent the whole time apologizing and saying how much he loved the Lord and how he really liked that referee and was so sorry that he lost his temper and everything, all with that lovable Cajun accent. I remember how he used to keep trying to get Will Perdue to eat some of that "cone" bread that his wife Cassandra made. I remember when he spoke at Elliott's jersey retirement and gave Sean and Claudia a free trip to "JAAA-Pan." Whether he's worthy or not based on whatever criteria anyone might want to use, I'm gonna be there when his jersey gets lifted, and I'm gonna be cheering by balls off, just to thank him for all the wonderful memories....

[Tek_XX]

You know, I hate to admit this, but I kinda feel the same way...A.J. really wasn't that good. I guess the only reason I want to see his jersey up there is because I grew up with him as the Spurs PG, and I feel all nostalgic when I think about him. One time during one of those seasons when the Spurs were playing great but destined to fail in the playoffs, I remember AJ got all pissed at some ref and got right up in his face and was chewing his ass out hardcore. He got hit with one tech, kept talking, then got hit with another tech and was emphatically ejected. The next night AJ was interviewed on KENS 5 about it, and he was wearing this t-shirt that said "GOD is GOOD" in HUGE letters across his chest. He spent the whole time apologizing and saying how much he loved the Lord and how he really liked that referee and was so sorry that he lost his temper and everything, all with that lovable Cajun accent. I remember how he used to keep trying to get Will Perdue to eat some of that "cone" bread that his wife Cassandra made. I remember when he spoke at Elliott's jersey retirement and gave Sean and Claudia a free trip to "JAAA-Pan." Whether he's worthy or not based on whatever criteria anyone might want to use, I'm gonna be there when his jersey gets lifted, and I'm gonna be cheering by balls off, just to thank him for all the wonderful memories....

So he tried to force feed Will Perdue "cone" bread?.....WELL HANG THAT NUMBER RIGHT NOW!!! And who can forget "JAAA-Pan"? And i'm sure being destined to lose in the playoffs that year had nothing to do with AJ.

[FromWayDowntown]

conqueso, are you also serious about Sean Elliott being a Hall of Famer? Frankly, and I don't mean to offend, I find that to be about as preposterous a suggestion as I've read in this forum. Sean is a San Antonio Hall of Famer; a University of Arizona Hall of Famer, too. But other than a Wooden Award, he's got no credentials to make the Basketball Hall of Fame. He never made an all-NBA team, and wasn't ever considered one of the dominant wings in his prime. He was a good player and he proved to be a big part of what the Spurs accomplished in 1999. He's a fan favorite because he's a nice guy and hit a huge shot. Sean is a lot of things that are admirable. But he's by no means a Hall of Famer.

[milkyway21]

wow :wow people are debating over retirement of AJ's jersey to the rafters:lol

I don't really like AJ, he's maybe one the former Spur I lost some respect.

And the jersey retirement? I can see it coming, I'm fine with it but it doesn't necessarily mean I'm glad his name is on the rafters hanging longside #50 & #32. Because those guys definitely love being Spurs. Until today. Their loyalty is beyond doubt.

And I ask myself I didn't see any INDICATION if Avery Johnson is proud being a former Spur. I can't see it in his eyes. That he wanted to be here for better or for worse. or if he even have the same respect left after the 1999 title.

I can only see that he sees the Spurs as a challenge, a team he badly wanted to beat. I can see the body language-e.g. 2003 WC finals.

Call me a sore loser, i don't care. bec felt bad losing to AJ in the 1st season game bet SA and Dallas but one sure thing AJ FEEL TRUIMPHANT WHEN HE BEATS THE SPURS than any other team in the NBA. It's like he's sending a message-He's better than anybody else? or better he's than Pops.
It's different situation when we beat Detroit in the 2005 finals-you can see Pops hugging Coach Brown as if he was sorry and there was enormous amount of respect.

twolast Q- does AJ wants to retire a Spur?

if I think he deserves it? maybe :rolleyes

if I'd be HAPPY if # 6 IS HANGING on the rafter?

seriously ? IMO? NO :nope

[Warlord23]

Like many have said, if it happens, it happens ... we can't influence whether AJ's number is retired or not.

However, it'd be lowering the standards of all future jersey retirements, because the arguments in favor of raising #6 to the rafters are flimsy:

1. AJ was the vocal leader of the Spurs. So what? I'm sure we appreciate that, but he couldn't back that up with his game. The vocal leader is effective only if he can put the team on his back for at least a few games. If the criterion is simply being vocal with or without having the talent to match, I'm sure Mark Madsen will feel good about the chances of his jersey being retired some day.

2. AJ had balls, especially in the playoffs. Well, if that's the case, Robert Horry's number will have to be retired by the Spurs, Lakers and Rockets. But that ain't gonna happen. And Mario Elie had way more balls than AJ, with a shooting touch to boot.

3. AJ hit the game-winner against the Knicks. For the love of God, that was one of the most one-sided Finals in the last 20 years. That shot was hardly a series-changer, ala the Horry shot. The Knicks gave a wide berth to the weakest shooter in the team, and he happened to make it. We were leading the series 3-1, and the Knicks couldn't have beaten us even if we rested AJ for the remainder of the series. They had no answer to the twin towers.

The likes of Derek Fisher and Rick Fox have a better case for jersey retirement than AJ, but I doubt if LA is that generous to roleplayers.

Many here are confusing their personal fondness for AJ with AJ's contribution to the Spurs. Let's make a clear separation between the two things. AJ was funny, gritty and a much-beloved underdog. If fan recognition is the criterion for jersey retirement, so be it. But let us not try to justify the jersey retirement with AJ's on-court contributions, because that makes a weak argument.

[conqueso]

conqueso, are you also serious about Sean Elliott being a Hall of Famer? Frankly, and I don't mean to offend, I find that to be about as preposterous a suggestion as I've read in this forum. Sean is a San Antonio Hall of Famer; a University of Arizona Hall of Famer, too. But other than a Wooden Award, he's got no credentials to make the Basketball Hall of Fame. He never made an all-NBA team, and wasn't ever considered one of the dominant wings in his prime. He was a good player and he proved to be a big part of what the Spurs accomplished in 1999. He's a fan favorite because he's a nice guy and hit a huge shot. Sean is a lot of things that are admirable. But he's by no means a Hall of Famer.

Yeah, if you take away the kidney transplant, Elliott in the hall of fame is preposterous. But you know this is the kind of shit they love to do in the Halls of Fame...honor some guy who meant more to the game than just stats and titles. I've been looking through the A-Z of inductees, and no one stands out to me as a "charity" inductee, but if Uljana Semjonova can be a HoFer, than so can Sean (http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Semjonova.htm).

I don't think he's a lock or anything, not a "first ballot" (even though they don't do that kind of thing for basketball). But accomplishing something that no other pro athlete has ever done is enough I think, even if you were just some scrub on the bench. It's like someone who only has one arm playing in the NBA...even if they totally sucked and couldn't do shit, they'd still get it to the HoF because that accomplishment is such an inspiration to so many people and so outlandish and amazing. Elliott also has good pro and college credentials, and add that to the whole kidney thing, and it makes me think he's going to be in Springfield some day. But that's obviously very debatable. I just don't think it's crazy, but fuck, I also think Wilt is obviously better than Jordan and all that "MJ is the greatest player of all time" talk is bullshit, so who knows, maybe I'm loonier than batshit.

[conqueso]

1. AJ was the vocal leader of the Spurs. So what? I'm sure we appreciate that, but he couldn't back that up with his game. The vocal leader is effective only if he can put the team on his back for at least a few games. If the criterion is simply being vocal with or without having the talent to match, I'm sure Mark Madsen will feel good about the chances of his jersey being retired some day.

Yeah Mark Madsen was a leader...a cheerleader. Comparing him to A.J. isn't fair in any way at all. A leader, especially if they are a point guard, does not necessarily have to "put the team on his back," if what you mean by that is score a bunch of points. You can score 0 points and be a good leader and motivator. It simply isn't true that "the vocal leader is effective only if he can put the team on his back for at least a few games." But even if that is true, AJ did do that, albeit rarely (see '98 against Phoenix, '95 against Denver, etc.)


2. AJ had balls, especially in the playoffs. Well, if that's the case, Robert Horry's number will have to be retired by the Spurs, Lakers and Rockets. But that ain't gonna happen. And Mario Elie had way more balls than AJ, with a shooting touch to boot.

There's more to it that just balls. Number of seasons played for the franchise is important. Whether or not you spent most of your career with another team is important. How well liked you were by the fanbase is important. Stats are important. Etc. etc. And yes, I agree, Mario Elie had balls, but he wasn't the leader of that team. He was the guy who bitched out Robinson, he brought fire and passion, but he wasn't calling out plays in the huddle or running the offense or telling David where he needed to stand or when Sean needed to cut. Avery was that guy, and was extremely good at it (which is why he is proving to be a good coach as well).


3. AJ hit the game-winner against the Knicks. For the love of God, that was one of the most one-sided Finals in the last 20 years. That shot was hardly a series-changer, ala the Horry shot. The Knicks gave a wide berth to the weakest shooter in the team, and he happened to make it. We were leading the series 3-1, and the Knicks couldn't have beaten us even if we rested AJ for the remainder of the series. They had no answer to the twin towers.

Yeah, that shot doesn't really mean much to me, and it really isn't a good argument for retiring his jersey. We agree.


Many here are confusing their personal fondness for AJ with AJ's contribution to the Spurs. Let's make a clear separation between the two things. AJ was funny, gritty and a much-beloved underdog. If fan recognition is the criterion for jersey retirement, so be it. But let us not try to justify the jersey retirement with AJ's on-court contributions, because that makes a weak argument.

Again, I guess it really depends on what criteria you want to use. Whottt doesn't think AJ was as good as Johnny Moore (in like an objective, absolute sense), and that might be true, but A.J.'s impact on the Spurs as a team was just as great, if not greater. Look at the stats I've posted in this thread. It is not a weak argument to show that A.J. played a similar role and had similar success to a player who has had their jersey retired. That's actually pretty persuasive, even though I know I can never convince whottt that 6 should be retired.

[milkyway21]

3. AJ hit the game-winner against the Knicks. For the love of God, that was one of the most one-sided Finals in the last 20 years. That shot was hardly a series-changer, ala the Horry shot. The Knicks gave a wide berth to the weakest shooter in the team, and he happened to make it. We were leading the series 3-1, and the Knicks couldn't have beaten us even if we rested AJ for the remainder of the series. They had no answer to the twin towers.

:tu

[SequSpur]

so is your eligibility to get on amusement park rides. :tu

:rolleyes

Sean Elliott is not a hall of famer.....

[SequSpur]

Like many have said, if it happens, it happens ... we can't influence whether AJ's number is retired or not.

However, it'd be lowering the standards of all future jersey retirements, because the arguments in favor of raising #6 to the rafters are flimsy:

1. AJ was the vocal leader of the Spurs. So what? I'm sure we appreciate that, but he couldn't back that up with his game. The vocal leader is effective only if he can put the team on his back for at least a few games. If the criterion is simply being vocal with or without having the talent to match, I'm sure Mark Madsen will feel good about the chances of his jersey being retired some day.

2. AJ had balls, especially in the playoffs. Well, if that's the case, Robert Horry's number will have to be retired by the Spurs, Lakers and Rockets. But that ain't gonna happen. And Mario Elie had way more balls than AJ, with a shooting touch to boot.

3. AJ hit the game-winner against the Knicks. For the love of God, that was one of the most one-sided Finals in the last 20 years. That shot was hardly a series-changer, ala the Horry shot. The Knicks gave a wide berth to the weakest shooter in the team, and he happened to make it. We were leading the series 3-1, and the Knicks couldn't have beaten us even if we rested AJ for the remainder of the series. They had no answer to the twin towers.

The likes of Derek Fisher and Rick Fox have a better case for jersey retirement than AJ, but I doubt if LA is that generous to roleplayers.

Many here are confusing their personal fondness for AJ with AJ's contribution to the Spurs. Let's make a clear separation between the two things. AJ was funny, gritty and a much-beloved underdog. If fan recognition is the criterion for jersey retirement, so be it. But let us not try to justify the jersey retirement with AJ's on-court contributions, because that makes a weak argument.

Great take.

[Dazzle]

Avery did not do enough to be retired, as much as I love the lil bugger

[Mr. Defense]

I feel my AJ - Hitler comparisons are very valid...we look back on Hitler today and say...how did that blithering idiot get so many devotees, what in the fuck was wrong with those people...


you wanted Negative attention from that comment, didn't you.

you thrive off negative. i can relate.

but dude, How DARE you compare a Man of God to Hitler.

Who the hell do you think u are?

YOU ARE the ONE SPREADING HATE.

Hitler executed Jews. God's people.

You are persecuting.

You are persecuting AJ like your shit doesn't stink.

How dare you. i pity you. i really do.

maybe you just don't know better.

maybe you don't realize that you just compared a point guard in the nba that is a Good friend of David Robinson, a fellow man of God to THE WORST FUCKING MURDERER OF THE 20TH CENTURY, THE DEVIL INCARNATE HIMSELF.

what the fuck is wrong with you man?

seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?

i've learned this lesson the hard way myself, Believe that.

so i'm gonna layoff after this post, but THINK before you post please.

we are all a family here. AJ is part of who we cheer for. bury the hate.


if you don't want his jersey up there, fine. that's your opinion and you entitled to it.

but the sure way to spot someone losing an argument is when they pull out the compare to somone evil card.

you are bitter about something.

who the fuck are you really? Damon Stoudamire? :lmao

[Mr. Defense]

:rolleyes

Sean Elliott is not a hall of famer.....



dude. did i say he was? he deserves to have his jersey in the Spurs rafters and it is. end of story. :tu

but you knew you lost that argument, so now your starting a new one, with his eligibility for the hall of fame.

you sneaky bastard. i KNOW your game. :lol

[SequSpur]

we are all a family here. AJ is part of who we cheer for. bury the hate.

This is not family time, it's an internet forum. Maybe that's your problem.

Distinguishing between the two?

[SequSpur]

dude. did i say he was? he deserves to have his jersey in the Spurs rafters and it is. end of story. :tu

but you knew you lost that argument, so now your starting a new one, with his eligibility for the hall of fame.

you sneaky bastard. i KNOW your game. :lol

I wasn't referring to you re: Elliott.

Go back and read. You'll figure it out.

Oh, I know I lost this argument because we all know the whiners who cried when Manu was given #6 and then quickly taken back.

I hope it never happens, but it probably will, media pressure. The fans don't give a fuck, at least the majority, that is what the poll said.

[pache100]

just for the record I said Tim and Avery in the original Post. David and Avery were great friends.

Sorry. I misread that.




Being a professional basketball player is more than putting the ball in the bucket, or winning rings or individual awards or helping your community...

Amen.

[Guru of Nothing]

And another guy that gets overlooked is Jaren Jackson....Jaren Jackson was the reason we beat the freaking Lakers...he bombed the living shit out of them and even though we swept them, those games were cloooooooooose...You go ask a Lakerfan who they remember more from the 99 playoffs...AJ or JJ...And JJ was Mario's project.

You beat me to the Jaren Jackson reference. Remember when everyone bitched about his three-year $8 million contract?

JJwas huge in 99!

http://www.boomspeed.com/mateo/JJ.jpg

[whottt]

you wanted Negative attention from that comment, didn't you.

you thrive off negative. i can relate.

Not really...I just have an antagonistic streak in arguments...especially when I cannot even begin to grasp why an undeserving player is elevated so far above the franchise and it's true heroes.




but dude, How DARE you compare a Man of God to Hitler.

I wasn't comparing a man of god to Hitler...I was comparing two disciples of the cult of personality...a valid comparison if you ask me. I'll let you cast the judgements...


Who the hell do you think u are?

An American who embraces his right to free speech(within reason).



YOU ARE the ONE SPREADING HATE.

Hitler executed Jews. God's people.

I don't recall claiming that AJ executed jews...only that he was able to get some people to make complete asses of themselves through sheer force of personality...like Hitler.




You are persecuting.


I wish I was in a position to persecute AJ...I'd keep his jersey from being retired and then let him go about his business.


You are persecuting AJ like your shit doesn't stink.

At least I can admit I am an asshole...something AJ can't...and I'm not a bully.


How dare you. i pity you. i really do.

maybe you just don't know better.

Hey...don't kill the messenger...AJ is not Mr.Spur.


maybe you don't realize that you just compared a point guard in the nba that is a Good friend of David Robinson, a fellow man of God to THE WORST FUCKING MURDERER OF THE 20TH CENTURY, THE DEVIL INCARNATE HIMSELF.

what the fuck is wrong with you man?

I do not for one second recall alleging that AJ murdered people.


seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?

I see the world outside of AJ's ass?




we are all a family here. AJ is part of who we cheer for. bury the hate.

I don't cheer for AJ...I think he's a dick. He's also the coach of our #1 instate rival. Fuck him.



if you don't want his jersey up there, fine. that's your opinion and you entitled to it.

Muchos Gracias.


but the sure way to spot someone losing an argument is when they pull out the compare to somone evil card.

theh, meh, and feh!


you are bitter about something.
Yes...I am bitter that people think AJ is deserving of having his jersey retired and are forcing it upon a franchise against the wishes of a sizable portion of Spursfans...
I am also bitter that AJ is continually elevated beyond the scrub he actually was, by AJ fans, at the direct expense of David Robinson's character and on court effort. I am extreeeeeeeeeeemly bitter about that. Extreeeeeeeeeeeeeemly.

Was I not clear about that?



who the fuck are you really? Damon Stoudamire? :lmao

Nah Damon Stoudamire was out of line in his mean spirited comments towards AJ...I'm not. He deserves mine. And I already posted the justification for my attitude...when I listed the comments AJ has made, and the things he has done, at the end of his Spurs career, and since leaving. You elect to "tut tut" away his dickhead comments and attitude because of some childhood adulation hangup...I refuse to do that and see AJ for the dickhead he is...

[Gummi]

First of all, Sean Elliott is not a Hall of Famer. Please, he should have his jersey retired but a Hall of Famer is stretching it way too much.

Now to this Avery debate. No, Avery Johnson should not be up there with the Spurs great. Role players shouldn't be given that honor IMO. That's exactly what Avery was, a role player. I don't see the Lakers retiring Derek Fisher's number. He was important to their title runs but not that important.

Please end this stupidity now. I've never understood why some Spurs fans overrate Avery so much. He was a nice role player nothing more.

[Mr. Defense]

I wasn't referring to you re: Elliott.

Go back and read. You'll figure it out.

Oh, I know I lost this argument because we all know the whiners who cried when Manu was given #6 and then quickly taken back.

I hope it never happens, but it probably will, media pressure. The fans don't give a fuck, at least the majority, that is what the poll said.


what do you care who cried? you were the ONE leading the Manu=Manure charge...where's TPark to remind you when i need him...:lol

let me tell you something...WHO IS CRYING NOW?!

NOW THAT #6 WILL BE RAISED.

Check a mirror if you got one. :tu

[Mr. Defense]

This is not family time, it's an internet forum. Maybe that's your problem.

Distinguishing between the two?


well, your entitled to your opinion. if you want to be anal here and a nice guy in person, so be it. I choose to have integrity and be the same person no matter where i am. But Godbless you. Like with Vader, I KNOW there is still good in you...:lol :tu

[SequSpur]

whatever dude... pick a screenname and keep it....

[Mr. Defense]

Not really...I just have an antagonistic streak in arguments...especially when I cannot even begin to grasp why an undeserving player is elevated so far above the franchise and it's true heroes.

I wasn't comparing a man of god to Hitler...I was comparing two disciples of the cult of personality...a valid comparison if you ask me. I'll let you cast the judgements...

An American who embraces his right to free speech(within reason).

I don't recall claiming that AJ executed jews...only that he was able to get some people to make complete asses of themselves through sheer force of personality...like Hitler.

I wish I was in a position to persecute AJ...I'd keep his jersey from being retired and then let him go about his business.

At least I can admit I am an asshole...something AJ can't...and I'm not a bully.

Hey...don't kill the messenger...AJ is not Mr.Spur.

I do not for one second recall alleging that AJ murdered people.

I see the world outside of AJ's ass?

I don't cheer for AJ...I think he's a dick. He's also the coach of our #1 instate rival. Fuck him.

Muchos Gracias.

theh, meh, and feh!

Yes...I am bitter that people think AJ is deserving of having his jersey retired and are forcing it upon a franchise against the wishes of a sizable portion of Spursfans...

I am also bitter that AJ is continually elevated beyond the scrub he actually was, by AJ fans, at the direct expense of David Robinson's character and on court effort. I am extreeeeeeeeeeemly bitter about that. Extreeeeeeeeeeeeeemly.

Was I not clear about that?

Nah Damon Stoudamire was out of line in his mean spirited comments towards AJ...I'm not. He deserves mine. And I already posted the justification for my attitude...when I listed the comments AJ has made, and the things he has done, at the end of his Spurs career, and since leaving. You elect to "tut tut" away his dickhead comments and attitude because of some childhood adulation hangup...I refuse to do that and see AJ for the dickhead he is...


Well Whottt, I thankyou for your clarifications, and I apologize for any finger pointing. But I still disagree. And let me ask you this 1 question.

If the Spurs did an ANONYMOUS vote among the players that are already in the rafters as to whether they wanted #6 to join them? Do you think AJ would win? Thanks in advance. :tu :smokin

[Mr. Defense]

whatever dude... pick a screenname and keep it....


are you a mod?

your name is not in BOLD at the bottom of the screen?
:smokin

[SequSpur]

Like many have said, if it happens, it happens ... we can't influence whether AJ's number is retired or not.

However, it'd be lowering the standards of all future jersey retirements, because the arguments in favor of raising #6 to the rafters are flimsy:

1. AJ was the vocal leader of the Spurs. So what? I'm sure we appreciate that, but he couldn't back that up with his game. The vocal leader is effective only if he can put the team on his back for at least a few games. If the criterion is simply being vocal with or without having the talent to match, I'm sure Mark Madsen will feel good about the chances of his jersey being retired some day.

2. AJ had balls, especially in the playoffs. Well, if that's the case, Robert Horry's number will have to be retired by the Spurs, Lakers and Rockets. But that ain't gonna happen. And Mario Elie had way more balls than AJ, with a shooting touch to boot.

3. AJ hit the game-winner against the Knicks. For the love of God, that was one of the most one-sided Finals in the last 20 years. That shot was hardly a series-changer, ala the Horry shot. The Knicks gave a wide berth to the weakest shooter in the team, and he happened to make it. We were leading the series 3-1, and the Knicks couldn't have beaten us even if we rested AJ for the remainder of the series. They had no answer to the twin towers.

The likes of Derek Fisher and Rick Fox have a better case for jersey retirement than AJ, but I doubt if LA is that generous to roleplayers.

Many here are confusing their personal fondness for AJ with AJ's contribution to the Spurs. Let's make a clear separation between the two things. AJ was funny, gritty and a much-beloved underdog. If fan recognition is the criterion for jersey retirement, so be it. But let us not try to justify the jersey retirement with AJ's on-court contributions, because that makes a weak argument.

This basically sums it up. End of story.

[Mr. Defense]

The Spurs do NOT WIN IN 99 WITHOUT AJ.

THAT sums it up.

Without AJ?

No Ellie either.

THAT sums it up.

any questions?

didn't think so.

NEXT!

[SequSpur]

are you a mod?

your name is not in BOLD at the bottom of the screen?
:smokin

WTF is a mod?

The problem is your jock riding in the forum with different screennames. I don't think it is cool and I don't know who the heck i am replying to and then I find out it is you which makes the point of replying worthless.

Typical mouselike.

Go bowl or play around of golf with me if you want to know the real me... Don't stereotype me from an internet forum or a gtg that you shook my hand at... Also, the redundancy of your short jokes and the references to me being nice at the gtg and an ass on the forum is boring.

When I discuss the Spurs, its my passion, not yours, not his, and not hers.

I didn't invent Manure, the guys that sat in front of me in Sec. 225 did, when Manu was a rookie.

Judith

[whottt]

If the Spurs did an ANONYMOUS vote among the players that are already in the rafters as to whether they wanted #6 to join them? Do you think AJ would win? Thanks in advance. :tu :smokin

Hmmm...dunno. I don't think so. I think it would go 3-2 against but I can't really speak for any of those guys.

I do know that last year there was an article in which Drob said he wondered what it would have been like to have played with some of these current Spurs in his prime.

Drob is a nice guy and is always quick to take the blame or throw praise...but I don't think for one second he really believes he was the reason the Spurs didn't win a title, as many Spursfans seem to think. He'll never say that...because he's class personified, but he's also not an idiot and doesn't have any esteem problems...he knows he was good enough to win a title...because he was, and then some. Look at what the man did in his career...

So I can't say for certain how that vote would go...I think Drob and Sean would both vote for him but I am not certain about Silas, Gervin and Moore. And no one is going to badmouth AJ publicly because the mafia would come down on them if they did.

[Mr. Defense]

WTF is a mod?

The problem is your jock riding in the forum with different screennames. I don't think it is cool and I don't know who the heck i am replying to and then I find out it is you which makes the point of replying worthless.

Typical mouselike.

Go bowl or play around of golf with me if you want to know the real me... Don't stereotype me from an internet forum or a gtg that you shook my hand at... Also, the redundancy of your short jokes and the references to me being nice at the gtg and an ass on the forum is boring.

When I discuss the Spurs, its my passion, not yours, not his, and not hers.

I didn't invent Manure, the guys that sat in front of me in Sec. 225 did, when Manu was a rookie.

Judith

okay. fair enough. i like you man. i'll stop the short jokes. you ain't that short anyway man. but you've never made fat jokes about me, so i'll cut the shit...even though i had a baddass idea for your pic in a highchair...oh well...que sera sera...

as for my multiple screen names?

which ones?

bigzak25, puppydog, and mr. defense?

if you want to know who someone is. PM them. people create different screen names for a reason. maybe for comedy. maybe because they like the anonymity. for me? it's mostly comedy. i know i ain't funny. but that don't mean i'll stop trying...:lol my sincerest apologies in advance....:tu

but there is an underlying point i feel the need to make.

1st off. your gonna reply anyway you want to. your your own man. :tu

but for me? for myself? i reply to what is said. i really don't care WHO said it. so differing screen names don't mean much to me.

although, i must admit. those spouting hate behind a screenname without giving their true identity? yeah. that bothers me. like herbivore female. which may or may not be samikeyp. no confirmation or denial as of yet.

and now? i'm after nbadan. and i'll catch him too. wait for it. :tu


tick tock dannyboy. :lmao

AND LASTLY, DALLAS IS IN TROUBLE ON THURSDAY.

and tony parker is a sucky point guard with blazing wheels. that is all. :lol

[Mr. Defense]

Hmmm...dunno. I don't think so. I think it would go 3-2 against but I can't really speak for any of those guys.

I do know that last year there was an article in which Drob said he wondered what it would have been like to have played with some of these current Spurs in his prime.

Drob is a nice guy and is always quick to take the blame or throw praise...but I don't think for one second he really believes he was the reason the Spurs didn't win a title, as many Spursfans seem to think. He'll never say that...because he's class personified, but he's also not an idiot and doesn't have any esteem problems...he knows he was good enough to win a title...because he was, and then some. Look at what the man did in his career...

So I can't say for certain how that vote would go...I think Drob and Sean would both vote for him but I am not certain about Silas, Gervin and Moore. And no one is going to badmouth AJ publicly because the mafia would come down on them if they did.

you make very valid points.

i must say, because i jumped on the Spurs bandwagon in 89-90?

I put more into what David and Sean think. So that might be the basis for why I BELIEVE Avery deserves to be up there. In my mind? The vote is 2-0 and unanimous. :tu