Derrick White trade looking worse and worse every day

[kht]

The Derrick White trade is looking worse and worse every day. We'd probably have 3-4 more wins right now with an outside shot at the 8th seed. Playing in the playoffs breeds confidence and a winning culture. Playing an opponent 4-7 straight times is valuable experience for a young team.

What is a late first round pick and a pick swap really gonna do? White was a home grown locker room guy. I would have rather we kept our 2nd/3rd banana. I'd rather done White/1st round pick for Sabonis.

[james evans]

we were losing with him and losing without him. We are no better or worse.

[emanueldavidginobili]

The Derrick White trade is looking worse and worse every day. We'd probably have 3-4 more wins right now with an outside shot at the 8th seed. Playing in the playoffs breeds confidence and a winning culture. Playing an opponent 4-7 straight times is valuable experience for a young team.

What is a late first round pick and a pick swap really gonna do? White was a home grown locker room guy. I would have rather we kept our 2nd/3rd banana. I'd rather done White/1st round pick for Sabonis.
It gives a chance for one of the younger guys to step up. White turns 28 in four months and he was the odd man out, he is better off in Boston.

[Leetonidas]

What good does getting swept in the first round or losing the play in do. Spurs made the right move

[Mr. Body]

It was a bad trade, but it was really to get off White's salary. They weren't doing anything with him anyway. Kind of a gift to the Celtics all around.

[Trill Clinton]

Stupid thread

[BatManu20]

Spurs weren’t going anywhere with Derrick and he doesn’t fit the rebuild timeline anyways. Let him go play for a contender while we rebuild and let our young guys get valuable minutes to develop. Losing games is the best thing that can happen for us right now.

[BacktoBasics]

The hardest part is that White would have likely been a Spur for life. That’s special if it were to in fact happen.

I get the trade but it still stings.

[bdictjames]

The hardest part is that White would have likely been a Spur for life. That’s special if it were to in fact happen.

I get the trade but it still stings.

[slick'81]

Too many guards and spurs wanted out of his deal. Spurs sure as hell didn't want langford or j-rich

[Atl Spur]

So short sighted boys……

[daslicer]

I liked White but in the long-term he was never going to help the Spurs. At best with him they would be an 8th seed that gets bounced out of the playoffs every year.

[duncan2150]

No

[PhantomDashCam]

The Derrick White trade is looking worse and worse every day. We'd probably have 3-4 more wins right now with an outside shot at the 8th seed. Playing in the playoffs breeds confidence and a winning culture. Playing an opponent 4-7 straight times is valuable experience for a young team.

What is a late first round pick and a pick swap really gonna do? White was a home grown locker room guy. I would have rather we kept our 2nd/3rd banana. I'd rather done White/1st round pick for Sabonis.

I think we need to show a little patience with this trade.

I’m one of the biggest Derrick fans here but understand that the team can’t say no to that package within it’s current state.

We just experienced likely the biggest team turnover in the previous 12 months that we’ve ever seen before in Spurs history.
LMA, DDR, Patty Mills, Rudy Gay, Derrick White…We’re talking 5 of your top 7 rotation guys, off the team in that span.

We’ve seen Drew Eubanks play his way into and out of (and ultimately off the team), in that time.

Let’s at least wait until the end of the 2022 off-season to give it a starting grade…

[exstatic]

We’re better offensively, and worse defensively, so for now, it’s more or less a wash. We’ll have to wait to see what the pick and/or swap turn into, and if we can leverage the players into other assets.

[Dejounte]

OP makes nothing but “we should have done this/ we shouldn’t have done this” type posts. How do you ever deal with life with this weak ass mindset?

[KingKev]

Derrick White trade thread.

[John B]

1. It gave more opportunity for our young guys, especially Lonnie, to play more minutes and responsibilities, which could be telling if Spurs would keep Lonnie or not,
2. Cleared up more salary for a potential big sign, i.e. Ayton,
3. White hasn’t helped pushed the needle and already 28,
4. We have to wait who Spurs use the picks on/swap or trade for,
5. J-Rich is a good defensive SF which position Spurs are thin

[KobesAchilles]

Just need us to win the Raptors game (or luck into a win vs the Lakers/Jazz) so I can get some tickets against the Pacers Monday. I want to be in the building when Pop breaks the record

[KingKev]

1. It gave more opportunity for our young guys, especially Lonnie, to play more minutes and responsibilities, which could be telling if Spurs would keep Lonnie or not,
2. Cleared up more salary for a potential big sign, i.e. Ayton,
3. White hasn’t helped pushed the needle and already 28,
4. We have to wait who Spurs use the picks on/swap or trade for,
5. J-Rich is a good defensive SF which position Spurs are thin

#2 isn’t really accurate. This trade alone used up more summer 2022 cap.

[Uriel]

In terms of winning in the short run, yes, it was a mistake. In terms of winning in the long run, no, it was the right move.

[itzsoweezee]

No. The spurs are finally pulling the bandaid off. Something they should’ve done years ago

[Dverde]

Still love the trade. Bad take

[John B]

#2 isn’t really accurate. This trade alone used up more summer 2022 cap.

Derrick’s contract is still 52mil. J-Rich has 12mil after this year and very movable if needed. Likewise Langford’s contract could be a trade filler. So there’s more flexibility salary wise.

[wildbill2u]

We all (well, most of us) hated to see Derrick go. He was a fine example of a young man who kept pushing his ceiling higher by hard work. I remember when we drafted him how much angst there was about taking a player that most had never heard of and who hadn't made a big ripple in his college career. Turned out those were bad takes, eh?

The thing about the White trade and some of the others is that it gives us another chance to get a lucky draw in the draft for someone with a higher ceiling who fills a need like at SF or PF without seriously damaging our guard situation. We have several who may be as good as White, are younger, and who have less salary against the cap.

Is trying to hit the big winner in the lottery a crap shoot? Sure. But why not take a shot to get that one perfect player who might be an instant starter and perhaps an All-Star. We need at least one of those types of players and we ain't gonna get one in free agency.

Our ST player personnel gurus are still figuring out the ramifications of some past trades like George Hill and the big one for Kwahi years later. Let's see how this turns out.

[KingKev]

Derrick’s contract is still 52mil. J-Rich has 12mil after this year and very movable if needed. Likewise Langford’s contract could be a trade filler. So there’s more flexibility salary wise.

It made no difference for cap space to sign a big free agent this year. Unlikely to happen regardless but that trade was never about cap.

[couchman]

This trade can’t be fully judged until the pick swap.
So far it is slightly in the Celtic’s favor, but it is notable that the Spurs have not been worse on the court without White.
He’s a good player but not a great fit for our current roster.

[duncan2k5]

Wait, what?? White has been inconsistent all year... Is inconsistent with the Celtics... And we were in the exact same place we were when we had him

[superbigtime]

why give the guy a generous contract just to trade him because of said contract? It does free up the coffers to pursue a name, so I hope that pans out. I liked D White. He wasn't THAT old yall. I hope the picks turn out.

[emanueldavidginobili]

In 10 games with the Celtics he’s averaging 11-3-2 shooting 40% from the field and 26% from deep.

Vassell last 10 14-4-3 shooting 44% from the field and 35% from deep

Walker last 10 16-2-1 shooting 49% from the field and 37% from deep

[SayTown]

There should be a post count limit for making threads

[Sugus]

:lmao "looking worse and worse every day" as in what, the Spurs are losing? Just like they were when White was here? I liked White and all, and the team better get some good defenders next year to fill in his gap, but you make that move 10 times outta 10.

Jesus, what's with posters and wanting to judge everything and everyone right now? Where have patience and wait-and-see gone in this world?

[Chinook]

We have no idea if White WANTED to stay. He seemed really excited about moving on. I think the trade was poorly timed, especially considering the Raptors trade. I've been on record of saying I would have held until the draft -- especially considering they didn't trade him for an expiring contract. But again, the Spurs are going to let go of talented people. That's the inevitable result of drafting well and having a lot of picks. White could have been a Spur much longer, just like Lonnie might be re-signed. But the Spurs are still looking for the right mix of young guys, and they can't afford to be inflexible with who they keep right now. White hadn't distinguished himself as a top-three long-term building piece. Lonnie, Vassell and Jones all benefitted from him moving on. For all we know, none of those guys are going to be long-term pieces either, but if they also return value, then it wasn't wasted.

[Dverde]

Pretty sure D White wasn’t looking to get traded yet. He and his pregnant wife made SA their new home. Timing wasn’t ideal for them, but I think Boston is a better fit for him going forward.

[Dex]

:lmao "looking worse and worse every day" as in what, the Spurs are losing? Just like they were when White was here? I liked White and all, and the team better get some good defenders next year to fill in his gap, but you make that move 10 times outta 10.

Jesus, what's with posters and wanting to judge everything and everyone right now? Where have patience and wait-and-see gone in this world?

It was bound to happen. Tanking sounds great in theory, but then when you are in the midst of it people start losing their minds because losing is not fun and there are plenty of people to point fingers at.

There is a saying in sports that winning cures everything. Well, guess what....losing does the opposite. Whether you support the tank or not, it's still not FUN to watch the Spurs fumble away games.

For everyone who wanted that chance at a top 5 draft pick...this comes with the territory.

[Fireball]

Wait, what?? White has been inconsistent all year... Is inconsistent with the Celtics... And we were in the exact same place we were when we had him

I have no problem that we traded him but ignoring how much the defense has suffered since White is gone ... oh boy

[Dex]

One of the three of Murray, White, and Walker were bound to leave to eventually....especially after we drafted Primo.

I was a little surprised it was White...but he had more market value being on a reasonable contract than Walker who is an RFA this summer.

Any GM with brain knows they can throw a large enough contract at Lonnie if they want him and the Spurs probably won't match, and he apparently hasn't played well enough for people to give up assets to secure him.

Also think the Spurs were hopeful Vassell could match his production as a starter, but it's been rocky so far. Devin definitely has some work to do this summer.

[KingKev]

Pretty sure D White wasn’t looking to get traded yet. He and his pregnant wife made SA their new home. Timing wasn’t ideal for them, but I think Boston is a better fit for him going forward.

Bean could be a place where White can quietly just do what he does best; all of the little things. He probably didn’t want to leave but sorry, that is the business. He might not even be in the league if not for SA. Take your 70m and live in a dope ass hotel in an awesome city for a few months till you figure it out.

We have 5 other guys on this roster who will probably have a similar fate in the next year or so.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Still not a bad trade, IMO. White wasn't getting us out of the lottery. I'd rather we just miss the play-in at this point and get a better pick.

One of my more favorite Spurs, but we sucked with or without him.

[KingKev]

Still not a bad trade, IMO. White wasn't getting us out of the lottery. I'd rather we just miss the play-in at this point and get a better pick.

One of my more favorite Spurs, but we sucked with or without him.

Great culture guy but it’s actually refreshing PATFO we had the balls to make a hard decision for once.

[niraj2000]

Great culture guy but it’s actually refreshing PATFO we had the balls to make a hard decision for once.

Derrick has been the same guy in Boston. Inconsistent, below par 3 pt shooter and good defender and assist guy. Great trade for the Spurs...May be this is his ceiling,

[KingKev]

Derrick has been the same guy in Boston. Inconsistent, below par 3 pt shooter and good defender and assist guy. Great trade for the Spurs...May be this is his ceiling,

I’m quite happy to see him gone. His 3 ball is just painful to watch. <30% on volume this year and it’s not like the threat of him shooting opened up much else.

That pick swap was probably the best part of the deal.

[Seventyniner]

It's not like the trade has to be either amazing or a disaster. The Spurs gave up value and got a different type of value in return. Far too early to tell how good or bad it was for the Spurs at this point.

[murpjf88]

What good does getting swept in the first round or losing the play in do. Spurs made the right move

What does a lottery pick in a weak Draft do for the Spurs?

[Leetonidas]

What does a lottery pick in a weak Draft do for the Spurs?

This is an incredibly stupid question

[exstatic]

What does a lottery pick in a weak Draft do for the Spurs?

All lottery picks aren’t equal. The first 7 are much better than 8-14.

[murpjf88]

All lottery picks aren’t equal. The first 7 are much better than 8-14.
I don't know, I think it's a crapshoot after Smith, Holmgren, Banchero, Ivey and Sharpe (assuming he enters).

[Mr. Body]

I don't know, I think it's a crapshoot after Smith, Holmgren, Banchero, Ivey and Sharpe (assuming he enters).

Sharpe is literally the biggest crap shoot here. We don't even know if he can play college ball, much less pros.

[murpjf88]

This is an incredibly stupid question
I know,. Drafting glorified role players is more fun than winning.

[murpjf88]

Sharpe is literally the biggest crap shoot here. We don't even know if he can play college ball, much less pros.
True, but he's very talented and athletic. Should be tanking for 2023 though.

[Chinook]

What good does getting swept in the first round or losing the play in do. Spurs made the right move

If the Spurs made the playoffs, it's not hard to see how it could have been more beneficial than most lotto picks. There aren't a ton of examples of contending teams growing organically, but the ones that do exist often go through a phase where they scrape into the playoffs and put up a good fight while being swept or almost swept by the top seed. OKC had their time against LAL, and Memphis had their time versus the Jazz. If the Spurs earned their way up to the tenth seed and won two play-in games, it's because someone (or multiple someones) took a major leap to drag the Spurs to a strong finish. If that's Murray, it's him taking the step from tentative All-Star to legit All-NBA candidate. If it's Walker or Johnson, the Spurs might have a second All-Star threat next year. If it's Primo or Vassell? I think that's obvious.

The Spurs are a team flush with tradeable assets now. They are MUCH more likely to upgrade the talent on their roster through a trade than through the draft. If they were a playoff team and had those multiple players to build around, it makes acquiring talent that much easier. That could be from having a non-Murray centerpiece in a big deal, or having the talent to get a star acquisition to sign on. The Spurs have two cheap years of Murray left. They have to think long and hard before burning them trying to play the lottery. If it's in the team's power to get to the playoffs, even if it's a guaranteed sweep, I'd rather them do that and accept having three picks in the 15-20 range to use to acquire talent over getting a pick in the middle of the lottery after a demoralizing end to the year where nobody put anything of note together and the team has nothing but Murray and question marks to build upon.

[RC_Drunkford]

Like I said there is no dropoff if you replace White with J-Rich. It's just that Pop doesn't play him to get the young guys some playing time, but the Spurs are not worse one bit and have an extra pick and a swap. The trade was great.

[CGD]

^ hoping to be wrong, but Richardson does nothing for me. He has a decent game yesterday but still shouldn’t get any on Vassell’s minutes

[Atl Spur]

^ hoping to be wrong, but Richardson does nothing for me. He has a decent game yesterday but still shouldn’t get any on Vassell’s minutes

We got two nba level players, 1first rounder, and a 1st swap…… some of you really think we lost the trade??? History hasn’t taught some of you anything. Let the grownups handle things :)

[MannyIsGod]

It was a bad trade, but it was really to get off White's salary. They weren't doing anything with him anyway. Kind of a gift to the Celtics all around.

This makes no sense considering they brought back salary and white is on a good contract.

[MultiTroll]

Just because White is playing reasonably well and the Celtics are improved since he joined does not mean the trade was the wrong one.

[MannyIsGod]

We're .500 since the deadline. Lonnie and Vassell have played better. We have another 1st round pick. We have a pick swap. We have a player who isn't really a big dropoff from white overall.

And I'm reading a thread about how it was a mistake. What a stupid fucking take.

[CGD]

We got two nba level players, 1first rounder, and a 1st swap…… some of you really think we lost the trade??? History hasn’t taught some of you anything. Let the grownups handle things :)

I didn't dislike the trade; I'm just saying Richardson doesn't do it for me and I don't see him as one of the assets we got in exchange like others do. Happy to be wrong, but for now I just see him as the salary ballast from the deal.

[Seventyniner]

This makes no sense considering they brought back salary and white is on a good contract.

I see 2023 cap space as a one of several things the Spurs got in return but not the primary driver. The deal very well could have fallen apart if Richardson had an extra year on his contract, though. Boston's inclusion of the 2028 pick swap tells me the Spurs either considered themselves to be bargaining from a position of strength or they were on the fence without it.

[exstatic]

I didn't dislike the trade; I'm just saying Richardson doesn't do it for me and I don't see him as one of the assets we got in exchange like others do. Happy to be wrong, but for now I just see him as the salary ballast from the deal.

He’s shooting 58% from 3 in his 5 games for a team that desperately needs spacing for drivers and cutters, and is playing good D. I consider him an asset on a short term basis, because guys like him are catnip for contenders, and I think he could bring in a contract that ends in 2023, and a pick in the high 2nd to low 1st range this summer.

[Jordan Jackson]

Derrick White or Betty White - doesn’t matter. This team was destined for the lottery.

The front office finally seemed to accept it.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

This could end up being one of those regrettable threads that gets bumped for years because of how far off it was.




Let's hope.

[Ignazzz]

He’s shooting 58% from 3 in his 5 games for a team that desperately needs spacing for drivers and cutters, and is playing good D. I consider him an asset on a short term basis, because guys like him are catnip for contenders, and I think he could bring in a contract that ends in 2023, and a pick in the high 2nd to low 1st range this summer.
Maybe I am 5000 Miles away from
You but realy glad to see same thngs

[T Park]

We're .500 since the deadline. Lonnie and Vassell have played better. We have another 1st round pick. We have a pick swap. We have a player who isn't really a big dropoff from white overall.

And I'm reading a thread about how it was a mistake. What a stupid fucking take.

The white trade was literally the trade fans have been bitching they haven’t made for he past three years

[Atl Spur]

This could end up being one of those regrettable threads that gets bumped for years because of how far off it was.




Let's hope.

I’m with you on this one!

[R. DeMurre]

It's still hard to believe the Celtics agreed to that 2028 pick swap. Six years is a long time in the NBA. Six years ago, Nikola Jokic was a chubby rookie, the Thunder had Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, & Steven Adams, and Isaiah Thomas was averaging over 22 ppg for the Celtics. So many things can move around and change in six years.

[Atl Spur]

It's still hard to believe the Celtics agreed to that 2028 pick swap. Six years is a long time in the NBA. Six years ago, Nikola Jokic was a chubby rookie, the Thunder had Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, & Steven Adams, and Isaiah Thomas was averaging over 22 ppg for the Celtics. So many things can move around and change in six years.

Exactly

[CGD]

He’s shooting 58% from 3 in his 5 games for a team that desperately needs spacing for drivers and cutters, and is playing good D. I consider him an asset on a short term basis, because guys like him are catnip for contenders, and I think he could bring in a contract that ends in 2023, and a pick in the high 2nd to low 1st range this summer.

Laker performance does heavily skews a small sample size, but happy to be wrong as the season goes on especially if he keeps his trade value up.

I like the deal that much more if he yields us another net positive asset this summer.

[exstatic]

Laker performance does heavily skews a small sample size, but happy to be wrong as the season goes on especially if he keeps his trade value up.

I like the deal that much more if he yields us another net positive asset this summer.

I think he will net us another asset, either this summer or next year at the deadline. He’s a good 3D guy, and a good culture guy, and for a contender, he wouldn’t be too old, still in his late 20s.

[The Truth #6]

Josh Richardson is a good “problem” to have, so to speak. We keep him or trade him, I can see positives either way.

[The Truth #6]

If the Spurs made the playoffs, it's not hard to see how it could have been more beneficial than most lotto picks. There aren't a ton of examples of contending teams growing organically, but the ones that do exist often go through a phase where they scrape into the playoffs and put up a good fight while being swept or almost swept by the top seed. OKC had their time against LAL, and Memphis had their time versus the Jazz. If the Spurs earned their way up to the tenth seed and won two play-in games, it's because someone (or multiple someones) took a major leap to drag the Spurs to a strong finish. If that's Murray, it's him taking the step from tentative All-Star to legit All-NBA candidate. If it's Walker or Johnson, the Spurs might have a second All-Star threat next year. If it's Primo or Vassell? I think that's obvious.

The Spurs are a team flush with tradeable assets now. They are MUCH more likely to upgrade the talent on their roster through a trade than through the draft. If they were a playoff team and had those multiple players to build around, it makes acquiring talent that much easier. That could be from having a non-Murray centerpiece in a big deal, or having the talent to get a star acquisition to sign on. The Spurs have two cheap years of Murray left. They have to think long and hard before burning them trying to play the lottery. If it's in the team's power to get to the playoffs, even if it's a guaranteed sweep, I'd rather them do that and accept having three picks in the 15-20 range to use to acquire talent over getting a pick in the middle of the lottery after a demoralizing end to the year where nobody put anything of note together and the team has nothing but Murray and question marks to build upon.

I would agree more if we were a year or two further along. Memphis last year in the playoffs is a great example of a team coming together and showing they can make the leap. I suppose we wouldn’t know until we try, but I see us needing another bonafide player who is already showing some of that potential. I don’t see us having that version of a player yet.

[Portnoy1000]

Derrick White trade was wise. Hes a really good player
But let's not forget, he was inconsistent and injury prone as well. If the Spurs get a legitimate power forward 6-9 range that is can play D, help on the boards and is not a liability at 3 that is move the make. I would also look at trading Keldon asap. A 6-6 undersized PF , that is in my opinion to slow to play SF is not a good fit going forward. He plays with energy and his 3 is money. But I would look to sell high. A large part of the Spurs defensive issues are the frontcourt and defensive rebounding. Mcbuckets can't play D, and besides that's not what he is here for. But Keldon is questionable as far as staying in front of people , switching and struggling with bigger opposing players as concerns boards.

[talkspurs]

There should be a post count limit for making threads

Just because you post a lot does not mean they are quality. Quantity does not equal quality.

[poopbox]

It's still hard to believe the Celtics agreed to that 2028 pick swap. Six years is a long time in the NBA. Six years ago, Nikola Jokic was a chubby rookie, the Thunder had Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka, & Steven Adams, and Isaiah Thomas was averaging over 22 ppg for the Celtics. So many things can move around and change in six years.

None of the people running the celtics front office will be there in 2028, so they don't care. If they turn out to be bad it will be someone else problem. It also speaks to the bidding war there was for Derrick. I pick like this is usually something a team has to add to get the player they want.

[Fusternino]

Richardson wingspan/standing reach? Can legit play the 3?

[slick'81]

Richardson wingspan/standing reach? Can legit play the 3?

6'10 reach and a willing defender

[RC_Drunkford]

this team is better with Richardson than it is with White. He's just a better fit next to DJ

[exstatic]

this team is better with Richardson than it is with White. He's just a better fit next to DJ

The offense is better. The defense is worse, points, FG%, 3G%.

[John B]

White had a tendency to defer and pass, very unselfish and sometimes to a fault. White was a better all-around player than J-Rich. But in Pop’s system, sometimes knowing too much is a fault. I hate to call “system player,” but being able to do your position best is what Pop demands sometimes. And I think J-Rich fits that in the Spurs system better than White did. Not unless you’re a Manu Ginobili then you can contribute a little here and there, then take-over. But White was not, resulting to inconsistencies sometimes, imo.

[Chinook]

I was never a fan of the White/Murray starting combo, so it doesn't surprise me that the team works better with Richardson in there. I do think Murray, Richardson, Vassell and Poeltl can be a very good defensive quartet. Johnson might hold them back. If you could have his offense and bulk combined with KBD's defense and length, I think you'd really have something. But I can imagine that'll be a weakness for the team for the forseeable future.

[Atl Spur]

Keldon is trying on defense and hopefully Pops willingness to apply pressure on him pays off.

[The Truth #6]

Keldon is trying on defense and hopefully Pops willingness to apply pressure on him pays off.

Or he needs ADHD medication. Sort of joking.

[wildbill2u]

Looks to me like Richardson is the only Shooting guard we have with the shooter mentality coupled with some decent stats. Granted he hasn't set the league on fire for the last few years, is he worth elevating over Vassell for the rest of the season. Ho Hum probably not since we don't want to win a lot of games. With all the guards we have on the roster you'd think one might stand out.

Guess that's why I'm more than ready to start Primo at SG and let the chips fall where they may.

[R. DeMurre]

I'm ok with the trade because the possibility of a big return looms with the future pick, future pick swap, and available trade assets, but I don't think Richardson is a better fit next to Dejounte by any means... Derrick is the all around better player, with better raw, per minute, and advanced stats-- and obviously Brad Stevens thinks so too. I think the Spurs thought this move would eventually net them something to help at what seems to me to be their glaring weak spots at both forward positions.

[KingKev]

Looks to me like Richardson is the only Shooting guard we have with the shooter mentality coupled with some decent stats. Granted he hasn't set the league on fire for the last few years, is he worth elevating over Vassell for the rest of the season. Ho Hum probably not since we don't want to win a lot of games. With all the guards we have on the roster you'd think one might stand out.

Guess that's why I'm more than ready to start Primo at SG and let the chips fall where they may.


Yesterday you were ready to have JRich as the backup PG. JRich never set the league on fire and we could play him 35 mins a game and we still won't win more games.

He is a solid 2way guy… if you squint your eyes he is basically D White without the nagging injuries.

[exstatic]

Yesterday you were ready to have JRich as the backup PG. JRich never set the league on fire and we could play him 35 mins a game and we still won't win more games.

He is a solid 2way guy… if you squint your eyes he is basically D White without the nagging injuries.

He’s a perfect player for a contender, a shooter/defender culture guy on a reasonable contract. That’s why I think he’ll be moved between the draft and next season’s trade deadline. He’s not going to elevate a play in or lottery team.

[Gagnrath]

Derrick White trade was wise. Hes a really good player
But let's not forget, he was inconsistent and injury prone as well. If the Spurs get a legitimate power forward 6-9 range that is can play D, help on the boards and is not a liability at 3 that is move the make. I would also look at trading Keldon asap. A 6-6 undersized PF , that is in my opinion to slow to play SF is not a good fit going forward. He plays with energy and his 3 is money. But I would look to sell high. A large part of the Spurs defensive issues are the frontcourt and defensive rebounding. Mcbuckets can't play D, and besides that's not what he is here for. But Keldon is questionable as far as staying in front of people , switching and struggling with bigger opposing players as concerns boards.

Keldon doesn't seem to slow from what I have seen for small forward, That said I don't feel like he's a super fast guyI also think he has been working on bulking up a bit more than what he would be naturally carrying at his age to play inside. Will 30 year old Keldon have some speed issues at SF with some match-ups yeah. Does this version of him have the ability to play SF in almost any match-ups? Yeah. Do I think a calmer version of Keldon down the road playing as a bench tweener forward depending on match-ups leading a young bench seem like it will be an asset for a team either the Spurs or someone else? Yeap.

[KingKev]

D White 2-18 from the field and 0-9 from 3 his last two games.

This trade looks better every time he shoots a 3.

[Maddog]

He’s a perfect player for a contender, a shooter/defender culture guy on a reasonable contract. That’s why I think he’ll be moved between the draft and next season’s trade deadline. He’s not going to elevate a play in or lottery team.


D White 2-18 from the field and 0-9 from 3 his last two games.

This trade looks better every time he shoots a 3.

A first round pick and a player who will be flipped for more assets and the opportunity to evaluate a former late lottery pick.
All for a good but not great 28 year old. What's not to like?

Sure the Spurs may not end up with anything better than Derrick White- the draft is still a bit of a roll of the dice- but for a rebuilding team the more times you roll the dice the more times you have a chance to get a great player

[KingKev]

A first round pick and a player who will be flipped for more assets and the opportunity to evaluate a former late lottery pick.
All for a good but not great 28 year old. What's not to like?

Sure the Spurs may not end up with anything better than Derrick White- the draft is still a bit of a roll of the dice- but for a rebuilding team the more times you roll the dice the more times you have a chance to get a great player

I was banging the table to move on from White all-season. I liked this trade then and I like it now.

This may be an unpopular opinion but I hope we do more trades like this. We have a roster full of average players who probably look better on the Spurs because of our system.

[Dverde]

Good insight in this new article especially about Pop telling White about the trade…

https://www.si.com/.amp/nba/2022/03/16/derrick-white-boston-celtics-missing-piece

[lefty]

We should have gotten Marcus Smart tbh

He is a true Spur, took our Steph Curry yesterday, and the irony of Steve Kerr bitching about it.............:lmao

[John B]

Good insight in this new article especially about Pop telling White about the trade…

https://www.si.com/.amp/nba/2022/03/16/derrick-white-boston-celtics-missing-piece

“It's kind of crazy,” White says, looking back. “Because you feel like you're not wanted in San Antonio, but then you see how much Boston gave up to pursue you and it's pretty exciting.”

Derrick is a good guy and I’m rooting for him to make a big difference at Celtics. He’s a cog who does a lot of little things, but sometimes you want him to do more of big things, be more selfish and call his own number. The Spurs mantra of “over oneself” and “it’s all about the team” seem to be the underlying character of ex-Spurs players, and now the other teams are just appreciating the character that Pop has instilled on their new found player.

But with all that, I think the Celtics paid too much for him, and Pop was giddy like a kid who was too happy to trade his old card for a new shiny toy and more. Time will tell how much more Spurs got from this trade.

[spurraider21]

trade looks better and better every day tbh

[slick'81]

Last three games for derrick-5,0,7 points. 4/26 fg

[mystargtr34]

Derrick really does look like a mid-level role player these days. But he will still be good for Boston leading their second unit. Has high IQ, defense is still pretty good. But that jump shot is broken and he looks like 70% of the athlete he was back in 2019 pre injuries.

Great trade by the Spurs tbh. Don’t think Boston is regretting it, but it will depend how Derrick performs in the playoffs.

[R. DeMurre]

The pick swap is a big swing, and really has to be viewed as a great strategy regardless of the eventual outcome. It's like a possession where there's great ball movement that ends with the best three point shooter getting a wide open look... that's a smart basketball play, even if that particular shot doesn't go down.

[MannyIsGod]

Derrick really does look like a mid-level role player these days. But he will still be good for Boston leading their second unit. Has high IQ, defense is still pretty good. But that jump shot is broken and he looks like 70% of the athlete he was back in 2019 pre injuries.

Great trade by the Spurs tbh. Don’t think Boston is regretting it, but it will depend how Derrick performs in the playoffs.

I think the fact that Derrick is still shooting badly in Boston isn't a great sign that he was somehow being held back by the Spurs system but also its early. We'll see how he does next year I guess. Spurs definitely look like they sold high on White though.

[Mr. Body]

Even if he's not shooting well, he's a good player for the Celtics. Their offense runs through two players, anyway (Brown, Tatum), and what they needed was a willing defender who can cycle the ball and see things others can't.

[KingKev]

Hot take; Jonathan Simmons > Derrick White but White presents himself better so may have a few more years in the league. Quite the system we have tbh.

[offset formation]

Hot take; Jonathan Simmons > Derrick White but White presents himself better so may have a few more years in the league. Quite the system we have tbh.

Worse 3 pt shooter, better driver / more athletic. Defense not as good.

Derrick is better against set defenses. Simmons was better in transition.

Derrick is the better player.

[GAustex]

Yeah Simmons was an enigma
Such talent untapped
Wasted
Prolly cause he ain’t that smart

[Mr. Body]

I'd rather have Simmons over fathead 2. Dude could get a bucket vs Warriors at their peak.

LOL, Simmons played all of four seasons in the league and is in China. WTF is wrong with people, LMAO.

[Dverde]

Not sure if Celtics fans realize White gets hurt a lot. He’s not playing great, but at least he is playing. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[John B]

Derrick is a very good all-around player. He’s high bball iq and could help Celtics in the playoffs.

I wonder if J-Rich TO’s as of late is what concerned Celtics. J-Rich could make head-scratcher decisions sometimes

[Em-City]

Derrick white looking worse and worse each day

[Harry Callahan]

Either Brown or Tatum will be gone from Boston by the 27-28 season. That long of a lag time could be huge. Hopefully the Spurs will be back in the saddle by that time.

Is there a limitation on the pick swap?

[exstatic]

Either Brown or Tatum will be gone from Boston by the 27-28 season. That long of a lag time could be huge. Hopefully the Spurs will be back in the saddle by that time.

Is there a limitation on the pick swap?

The only limitation is 2-30 it conveys, 1st overall, no go.

[Harry Callahan]

The only limitation is 2-30 it conveys, 1st overall, no go.

That'll work. It may come to nothing, but it could also be a big deal for the Spurs.

[John B]

J-Rich with 25 pts in 3-5 from 3

[slick'81]

J-Rich with 25 pts in 3-5 from 3

d white- 6/1/3 :lol

[mystargtr34]

Man if anyone has watched the Celtics in the last couple months, they are freaking balling. The roster changes they made have been great for them (getting rid of Schroeder for Thiess, Richardson for White). The team is much more balanced. They use to fall apart when the bench came in.

Since January 1st

Second best record in the league of 27-9 only behind Phoenix 31-6.

Best net rating of 12.3. Second is Phoenix at 10.2. Third is T-Wolves at 7.7.

By far the best defensive rating of 103.4. Second best is Phoenix at 107.9.

The thing about their defense is that it should translate to the playoffs. Offensively they will need Tatum and Brown to be big on offense and everyone else needs to be able to hit 3s.

Also, Boston’s also number in the league in opponent paint points since Jan 1. You’re going to have to beat them from 3 or mid range.

[Mr. Body]

It's hard to know who will come out of the East this year, but I'd put Boston way up there.

[R. DeMurre]

I imagine Brad Stevens is very happy with the D White trade. Boston's not only 13-3 with him, but that win total includes quality wins against Denver, Memphis, Philly, and Brooklyn. White's always been a glue guy, so he's in the perfect situation supporting five solid starters for Boston. Gotta admit, it would be kind of crazy if Boston won a championship this year, after what happened with the Kawhi trade.

[lefty]

Their defense is so good right now

[Dex]

LOL, Simmons played all of four seasons in the league and is in China. WTF is wrong with people, LMAO.

The fact that some people are still here pining over Jonathon fucking Simmons proves they are either trolling or just straight up retarded.

Dude was lucky to get a payday from Orlando off of one decent season (where he only got playoff minutes because Kawhi is a bitch), and now he's out of the NBA.

Richardson looks better than Simmons ever did so far, but you don't see people wooing over him right now.

[mo7888]

I've been right about everything Spurs. :lol

Quality trolling ..definitely top 3 on this site...

[BatManu20]

Derrick had no future here so moving in was the right pick but the fact that Boston’s pick this year is gonna be bottom 5 definitely sucks. But whatever, gotta move on. Hopefully that future pick-swap ends up being worth something.

[Ignazzz]

Wait. Time Lord is off now.

[KingKev]

The fact that some people are still here pining over Jonathon fucking Simmons proves they are either trolling or just straight up retarded.

Dude was lucky to get a payday from Orlando off of one decent season (where he only got playoff minutes because Kawhi is a bitch), and now he's out of the NBA.

Richardson looks better than Simmons ever did so far, but you don't see people wooing over him right now.

I was trolling but also pointing out both potentially looked better in our system.

[jjspur]

I think Boston knew that trading for White would improve their overall defense. They weren't bad by any means, but the trade moved their defense up a notch or two. It also helps that he can score and shoot an occasional 3. It was a decent trade for both sides. Our upcoming pick and the pick swap in 28 will really decide who truly won the trade.

[PhantomDashCam]

1506308580265578496

Jump to the 1:04 mark for Grant's DW assigned character. DW's reaction is priceless :lol

[ismael-robert]

Meh reaction actually

[Dex]

I was trolling but also pointing out both potentially looked better in our system.

I appreciate the honesty, and agreed to both points :tu

[Robz4000]

1506308580265578496

Jump to the 1:04 mark for Grant's DW assigned character. DW's reaction is priceless :lol


:lol almost feels like a jab at White and his injury history

[John B]

1506308580265578496

Jump to the 1:04 mark for Grant's DW assigned character. DW's reaction is priceless :lol

Well Derrick does have a lot of tricks on his sleeves and maybe a cog. Yeah, I’ll buy it.

[couchman]

J Rich has been shooting lights out for the Spurs, improving his value as an asset. He
might even be worth keeping!

[exstatic]

J Rich has been shooting lights out for the Spurs, improving his value as an asset. He
might even be worth keeping!

I think they’ll shop him this summer, but get crap offers, and hang onto him until the deadline. Teams not only want to bolster their roster for the playoffs, they want to keep opponents from doing the same.

[R. DeMurre]

One of Fivethirtyeight's models (the RAPTOR forecast) has the Celtics as the favorite to win the NBA championship, while another (the ELO forecast) has them second.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-predictions/?ex_cid=rrpromo

[scott]

Hope Derrick gets a title, tbd. Would be happy AF for him in ways that I wouldn't be for LMA or even Patty/Rudy/DMR. (Fuck LMA. Patty/Rudy/DMR were mutual splits so I don't blame and would be happy for them to get a title... but by all accounts Derrick wanted o be here, so I'd get the most joy out of him getting a ring even if it means having to suffer Boston sports getting another chip)

[Mr. Body]

One of Fivethirtyeight's models (the RAPTOR forecast) has the Celtics as the favorite to win the NBA championship, while another (the ELO forecast) has them second.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-predictions/?ex_cid=rrpromo

No one has been playing as well by them. Only Memphis has been close. Memphis-Boston finals incoming.

[couchman]

Picking today I’d say Suns v Celtics Finals

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs are 10-9 since the White trade

[Dejounte]

White was a detriment to the Spurs’ offensive pace. It would be a Jekyl and Hyde type pacing where it’d be fast and aggressive one moment and then too slow and too relaxed the second White touches the ball.

[RC_Drunkford]

White was a detriment to the Spurs’ offensive pace. It would be a Jekyl and Hyde type pacing where it’d be fast and aggressive one moment and then too slow and too relaxed the second White touches the ball.

and he was throwing up bricks from 3

[KingKev]

White was a decent player on some very bad Spurs teams. If he doesn’t correct that 3pt shot he will be getting min contracts once this was one is up.

[Maddog]

This could end up being one of those rare trades that benefit both teams.

[talkspurs]

Spurs are 10-9 since the White trade

not what the OP was going for but by us winning it is hurting our draft pick. In that way it is looking worse.

[BatManu20]

As well as Boston is playing, I’m still taking the Nets over them in a playoff series. What’s crazy is it might be the First Round matchup in the East, which would probably be the most anticipated First Round series ever tbh.

[tbdog]

not what the OP was going for but by us winning it is hurting our draft pick. In that way it is looking worse.

And the Celtics winning too.

[spurraider21]

Boston has been winning lately but it doesn’t seem like white has had much to do with it at all

[Gagnrath]

Boston has been winning lately but it doesn’t seem like white has had much to do with it at all


He's a good defender and good facilitator who is just enough of an offensive threat to keep defensive players honest right now. Not sure what happened to his offense in actuality it's weird.

[R. DeMurre]

Boston has been winning lately but it doesn’t seem like white has had much to do with it at all


White has the best On Court +/- per 100 possessions on the team (+12.1) and his On-Off +/- per 100 possessions is +5.8... Their point differential as a team is +6.6 per game. I think he's a perfect 6th man for that team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2022.html

[exstatic]

White has the best On Court +/- per 100 possessions on the team (+12.1) and his On-Off +/- per 100 possessions is +5.8... Their point differential as a team is +6.6 per game. I think he's a perfect 6th man for that team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2022.html

Casuals can only see points and FG%, things that were thought important 30 years ago.

[sananspursfan21]

It’s not often that a trade is truly mutual, but this one looks to have benefited both very well. Seeing Richardson ball out has me kinda hoping they don’t use him for draft capitol.

[spurraider21]

Casuals never figured out that in the big 3 era our best player was actually Matt Bonner

[spurraider21]

White has the best On Court +/- per 100 possessions on the team (+12.1) and his On-Off +/- per 100 possessions is +5.8... Their point differential as a team is +6.6 per game. I think he's a perfect 6th man for that team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2022.html
Bench role is good for him tbh. Not saying he doesn’t fit well. Just that he hasn’t played particularly well

[KingKev]

It’s not often that a trade is truly mutual, but this one looks to have benefited both very well. Seeing Richardson ball out has me kinda hoping they don’t use him for draft capitol.

Too early to tell but so far we should he charged with bloody murder. JRich might be used for draft capital or just be a piece to the puzzle as he is considerably better than many our youth. D White continues to shoot horrific from deep in decent volume. We gained cap flexibility, draft capital and a throw in chip in Langford who we can work into our development system or waive at the blink of an eye.

[KingKev]

Casuals never figured out that in the big 3 era our best player was actually Matt Bonner

The same guy who couldn’t hit a preseason clutch shot if his life depended on it… Matt fking Bonner. He could have a snap chat score of a million or whatever vodoo metric some of these “analytics guys” follow and still not add shit.

[spurraider21]

The same guy who couldn’t hit a preseason clutch shot if his life depended on it… Matt fking Bonner. He could have a snap chat score of a million or whatever vodoo metric some of these “analytics guys” follow and still not add shit.
But his +/- !!

[bluebellmaniac]

White has the best On Court +/- per 100 possessions on the team (+12.1) and his On-Off +/- per 100 possessions is +5.8... Their point differential as a team is +6.6 per game. I think he's a perfect 6th man for that team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2022.html

What is On-Off?

[bluebellmaniac]

NVM, I think I figured it out.

[XDT76]

If a guy plays more than half the game in non-garbage time and his +/- is always positive I would like him to be on the court even if his stat is straight 0s. It means every time he is on the court our team is winning. Or you guys prefer triple double guys with negative +/- all the time?

[exstatic]

If a guy plays more than half the game in non-garbage time and his +/- is always positive I would like him to be on the court even if his stat is straight 0s. It means every time he is on the court our team is winning. Or you guys prefer triple double guys with negative +/- all the time?

cough*Lonnie*cough

[exstatic]

It’s not often that a trade is truly mutual, but this one looks to have benefited both very well. Seeing Richardson ball out has me kinda hoping they don’t use him for draft capitol.

I think that would depend on what happens this summer. If by some miracle, we jump into the top 4 from our hellish draft position, they might keep him. If we're picking all 3 FRPs at 10 or worse, we'll be looking at another year like this without a decent FA signing or signings. At that point, he becomes a luxury that we don't need. I mean, we got a first for Thad Young and a second. JRich should pull us a FRP.

[Chinook]

I'll get on my Bonner soap box if this keeps going. There's no a player who proves how valuable plus-minus is more than him. People who think he invalidates the stat are taking the exact wrong message from his numbers.

[KingKev]

Is Derrick White a more influential Spur than Matt Bonner? Those sandwiches look pretty damn good, but Derrick White had a 36 pt game in the playoffs once (we blew the series) and that dunk on Milsap was dirty.

[slick'81]

Whites last 3 GP, 32 MPG, 14 PPG, 45% FG, 37% 3PT, 4 RPG, 5 APG

[exstatic]

The better our traded outgoing players perform, the better the return on future trades. It improves the brand.

[KingKev]

Whites last 3 GP, 32 MPG, 14 PPG, 45% FG, 37% 3PT, 4 RPG, 5 APG



lol and the 10 before that? Wish him the best but glad he is gone.

[Joseph Kony]

Whites last 3 GP, 32 MPG, 14 PPG, 45% FG, 37% 3PT, 4 RPG, 5 APG



in last nights 1 point OT loss he bricked a 3, missed a bunny, and got blocked twice in the last 3 mins of OT :lmao

[R. DeMurre]

Bench role is good for him tbh. Not saying he doesn’t fit well. Just that he hasn’t played particularly well

I understand pointing out that he's had some shooting percentage issues, but there's more to playing well than that. One example: since joining Boston, White has had 74 assists and 24 turnovers. That's a pretty great ratio. His block % and steal %s are both better than Keldon Johnson's. His shooting percentages at the rim, from midrange, and from the FT line are all better than KJ's too. He's definitely a better defender than most. The idea that he "isn't playing well" doesn't stand up.

[KingKev]

in last nights 1 point OT loss he bricked a 3, missed a bunny, and got blocked twice in the last 3 mins of OT :lmao

4/16 in 41 mins; one of his best games a Celtic. Tatum and Brown out and once again he can’t step up.

[spurraider21]

I understand pointing out that he's had some shooting percentage issues, but there's more to playing well than that. One example: since joining Boston, White has had 74 assists and 24 turnovers. That's a pretty great ratio. His block % and steal %s are both better than Keldon Johnson's. His shooting percentages at the rim, from midrange, and from the FT line are all better than KJ's too. He's definitely a better defender than most. The idea that he "isn't playing well" doesn't stand up.
his assist/turnover ratio isnt any better on the celtics than it was here despite having a stronger supporting cast now. keldon has never been a particularly good defender and they play different positions so i dont really understand comparing them to make a point. and stl% and block% arent particularly great metrics to do that anyway

white has always been a solid defender and i dont expect that to change, but just hand waiving his awful scoring efficiency doesnt make sense either, and its not like its a recent development. he shot 41% from the field last season and is shooting 41% from the field this season.

i always liked white here. i dont think hes a bad player at all. i think he's a player that would help any team in the league as a reserve guard. but ignoring his awful shooting this year, and particularly since the trade, isnt helpful either.

[R. DeMurre]

his assist/turnover ratio isnt any better on the celtics than it was here despite having a stronger supporting cast now. keldon has never been a particularly good defender and they play different positions so i dont really understand comparing them to make a point. and stl% and block% arent particularly great metrics to do that anyway

white has always been a solid defender and i dont expect that to change, but just hand waiving his awful scoring efficiency doesnt make sense either, and its not like its a recent development. he shot 41% from the field last season and is shooting 41% from the field this season.

i always liked white here. i dont think hes a bad player at all. i think he's a player that would help any team in the league as a reserve guard. but ignoring his awful shooting this year, and particularly since the trade, isnt helpful either.

I don't think I've hand-waived or ignored his shooting woes at all-- I've acknowledged them multiple times in the thread. My point has always been that he's doing everything else at a pretty impressive level, has extremely positive impact stats & defensive stats, and is clearly helpful to winning when he has been on the floor with the Celtics. I've never tried in any way to deny he's having 3pt shooting woes. My point has always been that, despite those woes, he's still a net positive as a player.

[spurraider21]

I don't think I've hand-waived or ignored his shooting woes at all-- I've acknowledged them multiple times in the thread. My point has always been that he's doing everything else at a pretty impressive level, has extremely positive impact stats & defensive stats, and is clearly helpful to winning when he has been on the floor with the Celtics. I've never tried in any way to deny he's having 3pt shooting woes. My point has always been that, despite those woes, he's still a net positive as a player.
he's basically been for the celtics as good as he'd been for us the past year and a half (but with worse shooting so far). the difference is the celtics aren't counting on him to be a #2 or #3 offensive option, which we were asking of him, and he clearly wasnt fit to be despite some glimpses. i think the spurs made out well in the trade, and its not like the celtics winning spree is making me second guess that, because its not like its the result of white suddenly playing at a much higher level

[slick'81]

he's basically been for the celtics as good as he'd been for us the past year and a half (but with worse shooting so far). the difference is the celtics aren't counting on him to be a #2 or #3 offensive option, which we were asking of him, and he clearly wasnt fit to be despite some glimpses. i think the spurs made out well in the trade, and its not like the celtics winning spree is making me second guess that, because its not like its the result of white suddenly playing at a much higher level


he is what he is. People here were acting like he was going to blow up once he got outta sa

[R. DeMurre]

.Just that he hasn’t played particularly well


he's basically been for the celtics as good as he'd been for us the past year and a half (but with worse shooting so far). the difference is the celtics aren't counting on him to be a #2 or #3 offensive option, which we were asking of him, and he clearly wasnt fit to be despite some glimpses. i think the spurs made out well in the trade, and its not like the celtics winning spree is making me second guess that, because its not like its the result of white suddenly playing at a much higher level

I never said he was playing at a higher level or any of that other stuff. My point was simply that you said he hasn't played well and I think what you mean is that he hasn't shot well. His defense has been extremely good, his assist to turnover ratio is good, his steal and block rates are good, his FT% is great, and all of his advanced stats are good. The idea that a guy can't be a good player if he's experiencing a 3pt shooting slump is the fallacy I was commenting on, not whether the trade made sense (I've said numerous times in this thread that it did) or any other topic.

[spurraider21]

I never said he was playing at a higher level or any of that other stuff. My point was simply that you said he hasn't played well and I think what you mean is that he hasn't shot well. His defense has been extremely good, his assist to turnover ratio is good, his steal and block rates are good, his FT% is great, and all of his advanced stats are good. The idea that a guy can't be a good player if he's experiencing a 3pt shooting slump is the fallacy I was commenting on, not whether the trade made sense (I've said numerous times in this thread that it did) or any other topic.
I said he hasn’t played particularly well, and he hasn’t. Shooting/scoring is a big part of it. steal and block percentage are kinda odd stats to use to say he’s defending well. Not to say he isn’t defending well but those are weird numbers to point to.

[R. DeMurre]

I said he hasn’t played particularly well, and he hasn’t. Shooting/scoring is a big part of it. steal and block percentage are kinda odd stats to use to say he’s defending well. Not to say he isn’t defending well but those are weird numbers to point to.


I didn't use block and steal rates to say he's defending well. I said "His defense has been extremely good, his assist to turnover ratio is good, his steal and block rates are good, his FT% is great, and all of his advanced stats are good." I was pointing out six different facets of his game that were examples of why I thought he was playing well despite his shooting troubles. If you want proof beyond the eye test of his defense, I'd point you to the EPM stat of dunksandthrees.com, which ranks him as #5 defensively in the league, or the overall defensive RAPTOR of fivethirtyeight.com, which ranks him #12 in the league, or any number of other metrics which all generally rate him as a great defender, but I imagine you'll find a way with all of them to just keep saying he's not playing well because his 3pt% is poor.

[spurraider21]

I didn't use block and steal rates to say he's defending well. I said "His defense has been extremely good, his assist to turnover ratio is good, his steal and block rates are good, his FT% is great, and all of his advanced stats are good." I was pointing out six different facets of his game that were examples of why I thought he was playing well despite his shooting troubles. If you want proof beyond the eye test of his defense, I'd point you to the EPM stat of dunksandthrees.com, which ranks him as #5 defensively in the league, or the overall defensive RAPTOR of fivethirtyeight.com, which ranks him #12 in the league, or any number of other metrics which all generally rate him as a great defender, but I imagine you'll find a way with all of them to just keep saying he's not playing well because his 3pt% is poor. I’ve always said he’s a good defender. I just said those particular stats dont mean much to me

[R. DeMurre]

I’ve always said he’s a good defender. I just said those particular stats dont mean much to me


I guess I just don't get why you're so convinced that he isn't playing well because of a single deficiency in his game. Giannis is shooting the same percentage from three as Derrick (30%), and he's an MVP candidate. I don't get why you're so adamant that a mediocre 3pt%=bad play or bad overall impact. Dejounte Murray is shooting 31.9% from three and he's an all star. Would you say Dejounte isn't playing well?

[MannyIsGod]

I guess I just don't get why you're so convinced that he isn't playing well because of a single deficiency in his game. Giannis is shooting the same percentage from three as Derrick (30%), and he's an MVP candidate. I don't get why you're so adamant that a mediocre 3pt%=bad play or bad overall impact. Dejounte Murray is shooting 31.9% from three and he's an all star. Would you say Dejounte isn't playing well?

Because its the most important aspect of the game of basketball? Scoring and shooting matter more than defense.

[exstatic]

Because its the most important aspect of the game of basketball? Scoring and shooting matter more than defense.

Then why is Boston so much better with him, and not the scoring/shooting JRich? If what you're saying is true, they never should have made the trade...

[CGD]

Derrick has been THE Changemaker for BOS. Their offense actually flows now, and defensively he makes them that much more stout. It’s the BBIQ upgrade honestly.

We’ll see how they fair w/o Williams during this key stretch. Helps spurs anyway, if they lose a few games…

[MannyIsGod]

Then why is Boston so much better with him, and not the scoring/shooting JRich? If what you're saying is true, they never should have made the trade...

Uh, "so much better with him" isn't really true. They were rolling before they got Derrick. He hasn't been a huge difference maker. JRich isn't really much better offensively than Derrick either. Derrick in totality is a better, but its not some huge change that dramatically altered Boston's season. The loss of Robert Williams is the big change in their season, honestly.


Derrick and this bullshit framing of Boston aside, are you really trying to make an argument that offensive players are not way more valuable than defensive players? Cause there's no statistical evidence to back up what you're saying here and a literally the whole history of the game to back up what I'm saying.

[MannyIsGod]

The Celtics had won 8 out of 9 and 6 in a row when Derrick showed up. They were already playing very well. The love affair with this dude knows no bounds.

[R. DeMurre]

Because its the most important aspect of the game of basketball? Scoring and shooting matter more than defense.


:lol well, I guess that explains why Bill Russell, Dennis Rodman, and Ben Wallace never won any rings.

And besides, you're being disingenuous. I've gone out of my way to point out the many different aspects of White's production and impact, and you're reducing it here to scoring vs defense. I think you know it's not that black & white. Basketball's a team sport-- you can be a versatile toolsy glue guy that helps your team win even if you're in a shooting slump.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol well, I guess that explains why Bill Russell, Dennis Rodman, and Ben Wallace never won any rings.

And besides, you're being disingenuous. I've gone out of my way to point out the many different aspects of White's production and impact, and you're reducing it here to scoring vs defense. I think you know it's not that black & white. Basketball's a team sport-- you can be a versatile toolsy glue guy that helps your team win even if you're in a shooting slump.

You've said lots of things yes, but the point is that all those things aren't equal. Offense is objectively the more valuable toolset than defending someone is. You mentioned 3 players who won titles and were primarly defensive players. I could list hundreds who won titles and were offensive players. I can list way more MVPs and hall of famers whos success was based on their offense and not on their defense. Its not even close.

Offense is the more valuable toolset of the two. Being able to shoot is more important that rim defending for a guard. You can go out of your way all you want, and it doesn't change this. You somehow keep saying that Derrick is good at X and keep saying it over and over and over and over again without realizing that X isn't all that valuable in the long run.

[R. DeMurre]

You've said lots of things yes, but the point is that all those things aren't equal. Offense is objectively the more valuable toolset than defending someone is. You mentioned 3 players who won titles and were primarly defensive players. I could list hundreds who won titles and were offensive players. I can list way more MVPs and hall of famers whos success was based on their offense and not on their defense. Its not even close.

Offense is the more valuable toolset of the two. Being able to shoot is more important that rim defending for a guard. You can go out of your way all you want, and it doesn't change this. You somehow keep saying that Derrick is good at X and keep saying it over and over and over and over again without realizing that X isn't all that valuable in the long run.

I can make a long list also, of players who scored a bunch and didn't play D, and didn't win championships. Jesus, it's not like I'm saying that scoring doesn't matter. I'm saying a glue guy who does a bunch of good things on a team that already has their number one, two, and three scoring options set can be a valuable asset. Not sure why that seems like so crazy a concept. And besides, no one is talking about MVPs... we're talking about a 6th/7th man on a good team. Obviously if we were discussing MVP status, it would be a completely different set of guidelines.

[KingKev]

,:lol

haha D White can go 1-7 from deep miss two last minute free throws and Spurs talk will point to him taking 2 charges in the first half.

[MannyIsGod]

I can make a long list also, of players who scored a bunch and didn't play D, and didn't win championships. Jesus, it's not like I'm saying that scoring doesn't matter. I'm saying a glue guy who does a bunch of good things on a team that already has their number one, two, and three scoring options set can be a valuable asset. Not sure why that seems like so crazy a concept. And besides, no one is talking about MVPs... we're talking about a 6th/7th man on a good team. Obviously if we were discussing MVP status, it would be a completely different set of guidelines.

Dude, are you able to read what is being said? Let me break it down for you so its easy.

You said:

I guess I just don't get why you're so convinced that he isn't playing well because of a single deficiency in his game.

I said:

Because offense is more important than defense.

Then you go on some rant about Bill fucking Russel and role players and how you've said shit 210982098420 times. Fucks sake, just stop and breathe and understand that simple point. No one is saying Derrick White is worthless, but his value to Boston isn't as a defensive stopper, its his passing and creative abilities. His shooting too, but that shooting kind of sucks so yeah.

Don't believe me? Go look at the on/off numbers for Boston. They're a better offensive team with White, and their Drating is THE FUCKING SAME WITH OR WITHOUT HIM. So yeah, when he's playing like shit on the offensive side of the ball people are going to say he's not playing well regardless of his defense (which is incredibly redundant on that Boston team).


Do you understand now?

[MannyIsGod]

To give you an analogy if Derrick White was a car, his offensive game would be the engine while his top notch defensive skills are the cup holders. You're wondering why people are upset that the engine isn't running well because the cup holders work GREAT. Why would we ever judge a car on ONE THING, don't they notice these great fucking cup holders?


This is obviously hyperbole but offense is and always will be the most important aspect of NBA players.

[KingKev]

To give you an analogy if Derrick White was a car, his offensive game would be the engine while his top notch defensive skills are the cup holders. You're wondering why people are upset that the engine isn't running well because the cup holders work GREAT. Why would we ever judge a car on ONE THING, don't they notice these great fucking cup holders?

haha I agree with you somewhat on D White but maybe use other integral parts of cars; brakes, suspension?

This is obviously hyperbole but offense is and always will be the most important aspect of NBA players.

[R. DeMurre]

To give you an analogy if Derrick White was a car, his offensive game would be the engine while his top notch defensive skills are the cup holders. You're wondering why people are upset that the engine isn't running well because the cup holders work GREAT. Why would we ever judge a car on ONE THING, don't they notice these great fucking cup holders?


This is obviously hyperbole but offense is and always will be the most important aspect of NBA players.


That might be the worst basketball analogy I've read this year. Show that analogy to Pop, RC, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Brad Stevens, Jerry West, & Mike Krzyzewski... they'd laugh their asses off. Black & white, all or nothing, nuance doesn't matter at all. Ok, fuck it, I'll play along: what if that car has four flat tires, a broken fuel pump, and 5 bananas up its tailpipe? Is it going to win any races? :lol But, oh, the horsepower on the engine!

[exstatic]

Lonnie Walker has a 5.0L Engine, but his car doesn't go anywhere. Guess his cup holders are substandard.

[Mr. Body]

The reason why the Celtics are playing so well is defense. White helps on that score, but he also circulates the ball very well, which they sucked at before.

[MannyIsGod]

That might be the worst basketball analogy I've read this year. Show that analogy to Pop, RC, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Brad Stevens, Jerry West, & Mike Krzyzewski... they'd laugh their asses off. Black & white, all or nothing, nuance doesn't matter at all. Ok, fuck it, I'll play along: what if that car has four flat tires, a broken fuel pump, and 5 bananas up its tailpipe? Is it going to win any races? :lol But, oh, the horsepower on the engine!

Ok, so you don't know what hyperbole is. You're gonna have a real hard time communicating with people because you don't seem to read anything other than what you want out of what people say.

[R. DeMurre]

Ok, so you don't know what hyperbole is. You're gonna have a real hard time communicating with people because you don't seem to read anything other than what you want out of what people say.

:lol Yes, using hyperbole is the best way to communicate with others. Throw in some melodrama, some histrionics, and a sprinkle of satirical logical fallacy and you can be Press Secretary.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol Yes, using hyperbole is the best way to communicate with others.

I mean yes, Hyperbole is a rhetorical method used to communicate with people who can't seem to get a point. You know, like you in this thread? You spent so many posts complaining about how no one understood the points you made time after time after time so I broke it down to you in an obviously exaggerated manner so that even your simple ass woulc understand but apparently I wasted my time because its obvious that you weren't interested in the point but rather just wanted someone to agree with you on what you think Derrick White is.

[R. DeMurre]

I mean yes, Hyperbole is a rhetorical method used to communicate with people who can't seem to get a point. You know, like you in this thread? You spent so many posts complaining about how no one understood the points you made time after time after time so I broke it down to you in an obviously exaggerated manner so that even your simple ass woulc understand but apparently I wasted my time because its obvious that you weren't interested in the point but rather just wanted someone to agree with you on what you think Derrick White is.

Of course, you could just be wrong. In which case, your hyperbole would make you the National Enquirer of basketball scouting.

[MannyIsGod]

I could be, but the stats say I'm not. So there's that. I told you the defensive rating for Boston is the same with or without White in the game. They have good defensive players at every position. White's not even their best defensive wing. But yes, go on about steal percentage and other bullshit.

[MannyIsGod]

Derrick white with the Spurs this season

OBPM
1.2
DBPM
.5
BPM
1.7
VORP
1.4

With the Celtics
OBPM
-2.1 !!!!!!!!!
DBPM
0.8
BPM
-1.3
VORP
0.1

Gee, why does anyone think Derrick White isn't playing well? Totally the reason the Celtics are rolling!

[jjspur]

The Celtics offense was good, the defense not as much. In comes White, so the defense improves and flows better, allowing the offense to also improve. Our offense was mainly Murray and White. When our leading scorer Murray sat down the offensive flow stagnated a bit. Although White's defense was good, his offensive game could be hit or miss. When Richardson plays our offense doesn't stagnate like it did before. In other words Richardson wasn't the defensive player that White was, but definitely a better offensive player that seems to be a better fit for the Spurs offense thus improving their overall game. We are .500 since the trade, not great but that's better than we were before the trade and we will get an added draft pick to boot. It was a good trade for both teams.

[MannyIsGod]

What do you mean the defense not as much? The Celtics have been among the best defenses all year! Its their offense that has struggled.

[SAGirl]

I understand pointing out that he's had some shooting percentage issues, but there's more to playing well than that. One example: since joining Boston, White has had 74 assists and 24 turnovers. That's a pretty great ratio. His block % and steal %s are both better than Keldon Johnson's. His shooting percentages at the rim, from midrange, and from the FT line are all better than KJ's too. He's definitely a better defender than most. The idea that he "isn't playing well" doesn't stand up.
its more accurate to say something happened to his shot. He’s had a down year shooting. I kept thinking he was due to swing back up but it hasn’t happened. There must be some lingering issue that he can’t address until the off-season.

I remember Danny had a bad shooting season for his standards and in the offseason it turned out he was playing injured. He had some muscular or ligament issue. White’s thing can be the most minor thing but enough to affect balance or something. It’s just puzzling bc he’s always been streaky but he’s overdue to streak back up… heck I was just thinking if he recoups his shooting in the playoffs the Celtics will be pleased.

Still, this was a great trade for the Spurs tbh. There’s no downside here and I am surprised the Celtics gave up so much for him. That doesn’t happen without another team (or teams) bidding for him.

[Leetonidas]

Are people in here really trying to argue the Celtics are rolling because of White? :rollin

They were already hot when they got him. They've been dominating because Tatum is playing at an MVP level and Brown has stepped his game up as well, not to mention Robert Williams has really blossomed this season. Ime has also done a great job coaching them. Thinking White is the reason is just lazy analysis based on the timing of the trade

[SAGirl]

I guess I just don't get why you're so convinced that he isn't playing well because of a single deficiency in his game. Giannis is shooting the same percentage from three as Derrick (30%), and he's an MVP candidate. I don't get why you're so adamant that a mediocre 3pt%=bad play or bad overall impact. Dejounte Murray is shooting 31.9% from three and he's an all star. Would you say Dejounte isn't playing well?
Yea this shows exactly why he wasn’t a good pairing with Dejounte and didn’t add much value to the team. It’s also probably part of the reason Derozan and Dejounte weren’t a good pairing either. Richardson is a true SG that wants to shoot every chance he’s open and he’s been hot recently. Its no wonder the team doesn’t miss White.

[R. DeMurre]

:lol RAPTOR WAR and EPM are more highly regarded by scouts than those basketball reference numbers, but congrats on scouring the internets, finding one metric that helps you and ignoring the 5 or 6 that don't. It's been fun debating.

[slick'81]

Are people in here really trying to argue the Celtics are rolling because of White? :rollin

They were already hot when they got him. They've been dominating because Tatum is playing at an MVP level and Brown has stepped his game up as well, not to mention Robert Williams has really blossomed this season. Ime has also done a great job coaching them. Thinking White is the reason is just lazy analysis based on the timing of the trade


it was the same thing with demar and now white :rollin

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

its more accurate to say something happened to his shot. He’s had a down year shooting. I kept thinking he was due to swing back up but it hasn’t happened. There must be some lingering issue that he can’t address until the off-season.

I remember Danny had a bad shooting season for his standards and in the offseason it turned out he was playing injured. He had some muscular or ligament issue. White’s thing can be the most minor thing but enough to affect balance or something. It’s just puzzling bc he’s always been streaky but he’s overdue to streak back up… heck I was just thinking if he recoups his shooting in the playoffs the Celtics will be pleased.

Still, this was a great trade for the Spurs tbh. There’s no downside here and I am surprised the Celtics gave up so much for him. That doesn’t happen without another team (or teams) bidding for him.

Wait, when has White ever been a good shooter? He's a career 33% three point shooter and even worse in the playoffs. He was a bad shooter even in the gleague (or was it dleague then?). He's also never taken too many long 2s and his % from there is also bad.

If anything, should he have a good shooting period, it'd be the outlier.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol RAPTOR WAR and EPM are more highly regarded by scouts than those basketball reference numbers, but congrats on scouring the internets, finding one metric that helps you and ignoring 5 or 6 that don't.

Can you find RAPTOR numbers that don't mix his time with the Spurs? No. I use those all the time to make points because they are good, but if we're just trying to show how Derrick is playing with the Celtics, they aren't useful. By all means, provide numbers that show how well Derrick White is playing with Boston. I'm not cherry picking anything, I'm using easily sortable stats to make a point. And were not talking about the difference between playing OK and playing Well, we're talking about a -2 OBPM which is fucking bad.

Motherfucker you were the one cherry picking steal percentage and other nonsense and you want to talk about me cherry picking comprehensive stats? Laughable.

[MannyIsGod]

its more accurate to say something happened to his shot. He’s had a down year shooting. I kept thinking he was due to swing back up but it hasn’t happened. There must be some lingering issue that he can’t address until the off-season.

I remember Danny had a bad shooting season for his standards and in the offseason it turned out he was playing injured. He had some muscular or ligament issue. White’s thing can be the most minor thing but enough to affect balance or something. It’s just puzzling bc he’s always been streaky but he’s overdue to streak back up… heck I was just thinking if he recoups his shooting in the playoffs the Celtics will be pleased.

Still, this was a great trade for the Spurs tbh. There’s no downside here and I am surprised the Celtics gave up so much for him. That doesn’t happen without another team (or teams) bidding for him.

When the trade happened almost everyone - me included - thought White would shoot better from the field with the Celtics. We all thought he was shooting poorly on the Spurs because the defense keyed on him more but that he'd get more open shots with Tatum and Brown on Boston. Well, he has gotten better looks, but he's struggling even more than he did here with shooting. So yeah, something is either wrong or he's just not a good shooter.

[R. DeMurre]

Can you find RAPTOR numbers that don't mix his time with the Spurs? No. I use those all the time to make points because they are good, but if we're just trying to show how Derrick is playing with the Celtics, they aren't useful. By all means, provide numbers that show how well Derrick White is playing with Boston.

Sure-- look down further on that Basketball Reference page at +/- per 100 possessions. The Celtics are +5.2 with White on the court vs White off the court. The games with the Spurs and the games with the Celtics are separate.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure-- look down further on that Basketball Reference page at +/- per 100 possessions. The Celtics are +5.2 with White on the court vs White off the court. The games with the Spurs and the games with the Celtics are separate.

Ok, now ask yourself, why is this showing something different than BPM?

[spurraider21]

Lonnie Walker has a 5.0L Engine, but his car doesn't go anywhere. Guess his cup holders are substandard.
lonnie averages 12ppg on 41% shooting. but he looks flashy sometimes. very fancy looking headlights and some good chrome bumpers

[spurraider21]

its more accurate to say something happened to his shot. He’s had a down year shooting. I kept thinking he was due to swing back up but it hasn’t happened. There must be some lingering issue that he can’t address until the off-season.

I remember Danny had a bad shooting season for his standards and in the offseason it turned out he was playing injured. He had some muscular or ligament issue. White’s thing can be the most minor thing but enough to affect balance or something. It’s just puzzling bc he’s always been streaky but he’s overdue to streak back up… heck I was just thinking if he recoups his shooting in the playoffs the Celtics will be pleased.

Still, this was a great trade for the Spurs tbh. There’s no downside here and I am surprised the Celtics gave up so much for him. That doesn’t happen without another team (or teams) bidding for him.
white has a better FG% this year than he did last year

[spurraider21]

boston was hot before they acquired white

boston has remained hot since acquiring white

me: theyve been doing well, but it doesnt seem like white has had much to do with it, and he hasnt been playing particularly well

sniffers: why are you saying white sucks?

[MannyIsGod]

Sure-- look down further on that Basketball Reference page at +/- per 100 possessions. The Celtics are +5.2 with White on the court vs White off the court. The games with the Spurs and the games with the Celtics are separate.

Let me walk you there, maybe start by explaining why Derrick's presence in the is completely absent from the best 2 and 3 man lineups on the Celtics.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2022/lineups/

EDIT: He's actually absent from the top 4 man lineups as well.

[R. DeMurre]

Ok, now ask yourself, why is this showing something different than BPM?

It happens all the time, so it's not surprising. DeRozan was the opposite. He had a positive BPM with the Spurs but a negative on-off number.

[SAGirl]

white has a better FG% this year than he did last year
I was taking about 3 pt shooting specifically

[SAGirl]

Wait, when has White ever been a good shooter? He's a career 33% three point shooter and even worse in the playoffs. He was a bad shooter even in the gleague (or was it dleague then?). He's also never taken too many long 2s and his % from there is also bad.

If anything, should he have a good shooting period, it'd be the outlier.
Hes been better than he was this season previously. It’s been pretty much the worst one he’s had.

[MannyIsGod]

It happens all the time, so it's not surprising. DeRozan was the opposite. He had a positive BPM with the Spurs but a negative on-off number.

Nah, it doesn't happen all the time.

Look at Tatum's lineups on basketball reference.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/lineups/2022

Now, why would the top pairing for Tatum be White and by a large margin, yet White is absent from the top 3 man lineups for Tatum?

[R. DeMurre]

Nah, it doesn't happen all the time.




Look at DeRozan's page. It definitely happens.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't have all day to walk your slow ass there so let me tell you why those raw +/- numbers look so fucking good, but he still has a shit VORP and a shit OBPM with the Celtics. White is playing the majority of his minutes with Tatum. That means that he's largely benefiting from Tatum's amazing run of play over the past 2 months. So is everyone else on the court, but they also played with him when he wasn't playing at this new level. This is why Tatum/White looks so fucking good compared to any other two man lineup for Tatum. Because its the only one where the entirety of the minutes played have been with Tatum playing at an amazing level. But thats where it falls apart. This is why no 3 man lineup with white is as good.

If it was White driving this, why don't we see him on literally any other top lineup? Why don't we see any other Celtics appear in White's top 2 man lineups for this season? Well, we do, we see Grant Williams show up there so its probable that Grant Williams has a good synergy with white, except they seem to both benefit from Tatum on the court as well.

This is why Raw plus minus numbers are dumb when they lack context.

[MannyIsGod]

Look at DeRozan's page. It definitely happens.

What are you talking about?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html

Demar's BPM show exactly what we'd expect them to show. He was a good offensive player for the Spurs, not a good defender.

[MannyIsGod]

Look at the category labeled "Regular Season: 2-man combinations" on that Tatum page you referenced.

Tatum & White are +19.7, the highest net total of any two player combo.

Uh, yes, exactly. Now read my explanation on why that is.

[R. DeMurre]

Uh, yes, exactly. Now read my explanation on why that is.


If White's no good, why doesn't Tatum's pairing with better player rate higher? Your argument is that Tatum is so good that he somehow has his best pairing with a bad player rather than with better players?

[MannyIsGod]

If White's no good, why doesn't Tatum's pairing with better player rate higher? Your argument is that Tatum is so good that he somehow has his best pairing with a bad player rather than with better players?

Because Tatum wasn't playing at this level all season. Look at Tatum's splits, he's got an ORating of 130 in fucking March! 130! He was 115 and 114 in the previous two months, but he started the season badly. 96, 102, 111 were the ratings in the first 3 months of the year. So yeah, Smart/Tatum etc aren't as good as White/Tatum because they played minutes with him in October and November not just half of Feb and March.

Its pretty damn clear some of you haven't watched the Celtics play at all this year. And thats fine, but thats why you shouldn't act like you know whats driving their success.

[R. DeMurre]

What are you talking about?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html

Demar's BPM show exactly what we'd expect them to show. He was a good offensive player for the Spurs, not a good defender.


Right, but his overall BPM is in the positive, and his overall +/- per 100 possessions is in the negative. You questioned how those two stats could be different, and said it doesn't happen. It does happen, and in White's case, it's the reverse.

[MannyIsGod]

Right, but his overall BPM is in the positive, and his overall +/- per 100 possessions is in the negative. You questioned how those two stats could be different, and said it doesn't happen. It does happen, and in White's case, it's the reverse.

Oh I know how they are different, my question was rhetorical. They are different because the OBPM is geared towards the individual's impact where as +/- is the team's impact while the individual is on the court. If you put DeRozan on the floor with 4 people who aren't good or aren't good fits, then yes of course his +/- suffers. Thats the whole reason we have metrics like BPM which teases out the individual impact out of the group stats.

So when I asked you why White's were different I was trying to lead you to the answer that White's group stats like raw +/- look good due to others, not due to his impact, which is why his OBPM is bad. Everyone else also does well with an MVP level Tatum, but White less so. That's why while with Boston, White's value is barely above that of a replacement level player (VORP of 0.1).

[R. DeMurre]

So when I asked you why White's were different I was trying to lead you to the answer that White's group stats like raw +/- look good due to others, not due to his impact, which is why his OBPM is bad. Everyone else also does well with an MVP level Tatum, but White less so. That's why while with Boston, White's value is barely above that of a replacement level player (VORP of 0.1).


Right-- it makes sense that White's raw +/- is in the positive, playing on a good winning team. But if you look at those two different categories (on-court +/- vs on-off +/-) it shows that the Celtics are +5.5 when he's on the court vs when he's off the court. It's possible to attribute this to a situation where, say, maybe a guy like Pritchard, Nesmith, or Grant is dragging the numbers down, but I kinda doubt that. The vast majority of the numbers are coming from the starters, and White's on/off difference shows that the team performs better when he's on the court as opposed to off. If he was generally playing poorly, wouldn't the Celts be posting better numbers when the starters were playing together, without White dragging them down?

[exstatic]

Because Tatum wasn't playing at this level all season. Look at Tatum's splits, he's got an ORating of 130 in fucking March! 130! He was 115 and 114 in the previous two months, but he started the season badly. 96, 102, 111 were the ratings in the first 3 months of the year. So yeah, Smart/Tatum etc aren't as good as White/Tatum because they played minutes with him in October and November not just half of Feb and March.

Its pretty damn clear some of you haven't watched the Celtics play at all this year. And thats fine, but thats why you shouldn't act like you know whats driving their success.

March...wasn't that just after White showed up?

[slick'81]

Man,alot of arguing for someone who will never be a spur again

[MannyIsGod]

Right-- it makes sense that White's raw +/- is in the positive, playing on a good winning team. But if you look at those two different categories (on-court +/- vs on-off +/-) it shows that the Celtics are +5.5 when he's on the court vs when he's off the court. It's possible to attribute this to a situation where, say, maybe a guy like Pritchard, Nesmith, or Grant is dragging the numbers down, but I kinda doubt that. The vast majority of the numbers are coming from the starters, and White's on/off difference shows that the team performs better when he's on the court as opposed to off. If he was generally playing poorly, wouldn't the Celts be posting better numbers when the starters were playing together, without White dragging them down?

Yes, they would be. And they are. That's the point of White's absence from any of the top lineups!

Jesus Christ man I've fucking laid it out for you. I've drawn you a map. i've walked you to the answer. I've held your hand the whole way. This is hopeless.

[MannyIsGod]

March...wasn't that just after White showed up?

So you're giving Tatum's credit to White?

The same white who the Spurs magically played better after he was traded?


Y'all are like Trumpers ignoring reality when it comes to White.

Congrats on reaching ducks level of bullshit.


I give up with y'all, carry on.

[Chinook]

BPM and on/offs have basically nothing to do with each other. There's no mystery as to why a player would be positive in one and negative in other. BPM isn't even net-rating, which is at least a stat that is often confused with on-offs.

That's not me weighing in on the argument in general, but it's just weird to be wondering about this. May as well wonder how a player can have a good on-off but made PER.

[Chinook]

Insofar as I'm tossing my hat into this other argument, White's not in those lineups because he's a bench player who doesn't play with any consistent lineup very often. You don't have to try to figure out this stuff from BBRef or ESPN. NBA.com has robust stats that will let you sort by the past X number of games or even just the All-Star Break. Why not look at the complete data before deciding if Derrick deserves credit for the Celtics performance or not.

[R. DeMurre]

So you're giving Tatum's credit to White?



"On Feb. 10, Boston ranked 21st in assist-to-turnover ratio and 19th in assist rate. Since, they’re fourth and seventh in those two categories, respectively. The percentage of their two-point field goals that are assisted with White on the floor is 13% higher than when he sits—best on the team among all players who’ve logged over 300 minutes."

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/03/16/derrick-white-boston-celtics-missing-piece

You think it's complete coincidence that Tatum took off at the same time that White showed up?

[jjspur]

"On Feb. 10, Boston ranked 21st in assist-to-turnover ratio and 19th in assist rate. Since, they’re fourth and seventh in those two categories, respectively. The percentage of their two-point field goals that are assisted with White on the floor is 13% higher than when he sits—best on the team among all players who’ve logged over 300 minutes."

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/03/16/derrick-white-boston-celtics-missing-piece

Explain that... You think it's complete coincidence that Tatum took off at the same time that White showed up?

I agree. The absolute final statistic to all this is wins an losses. The Celtics have a higher winning percentage since White joined the team and the Spurs have a higher winning percentage since Richardson joined the team. Whatever metric you choose to use, both teams were improved by exchanging players. Isn't that typically why teams make a trade in the first place..to improve the team ?

[exstatic]

So you're giving Tatum's credit to White?

The same white who the Spurs magically played better after he was traded?


Y'all are like Trumpers ignoring reality when it comes to White.

Congrats on reaching ducks level of bullshit.


I give up with y'all, carry on.

Why can’t it be White? Why can’t Boston be playing better because of him AND SA be playing better with JRich?

[slick'81]

Why can’t it be White? Why can’t Boston be playing better because of him AND SA be playing better with JRich?


thats fine. But sa isn't playing better because of jrich

[XDT76]

D. White is having a +18 in 3Q today with the next highest being +6 and the rest near neutral. So it definitely shows he has very positive impact for the team. Again over a period of games with significant non-garbage play time shows the most accurate of a player's impact on the team. The player can provide help defence to prevent an opponent from penetrating set an off ball screen to get your primary scorer free or unsettle a set defence forcing them to scramble and rotate resulting another player to be free. All these are not capture in any stats. If a player is constantly having a positive +/- it shows the team is winning when he is on court. There is no dispute to this no matter what other stats says.

[spurraider21]

D. White is having a +18 in 3Q today with the next highest being +6 and the rest near neutral. So it definitely shows he has very positive impact for the team. Again over a period of games with significant non-garbage play time shows the most accurate of a player's impact on the team. The player can provide help defence to prevent an opponent from penetrating set an off ball screen to get your primary scorer free or unsettle a set defence forcing them to scramble and rotate resulting another player to be free. All these are not capture in any stats. If a player is constantly having a positive +/- it shows the team is winning when he is on court. There is no dispute to this no matter what other stats says.
leading them to victory tbh

https://i.gyazo.com/9cbd09629554cbffe4475fd3f03a78df.png

[slick'81]

leading them to victory tbh

https://i.gyazo.com/9cbd09629554cbffe4475fd3f03a78df.png


those 3 assists though

[spurraider21]

those 3 assists though
probably drew a charge in the 2nd quarter too

swung the game

[slick'81]

probably drew a charge in the 2nd quarter too

swung the game


because who cares if he can shoot. Hes there to facilitate

[itzsoweezee]

They got an expiring contract and a first round pick for a guy who can’t shoot and plays less than 30 minutes a game. The front office has done many things worth criticizing over the past several years. This trade is not one of them.

[tim_duncan_fan]

leading them to victory tbh

https://i.gyazo.com/9cbd09629554cbffe4475fd3f03a78df.png

Sad thing is this is the stat line he wants for himself. Would it be wrong to call Derrick not just timid but also lazy?

[BatManu20]

Celtics fans are already turning on him because of how shitty his offense is :lol.

Love Derrick but literally can’t shoot. And he’s a SG lol. Trading him was 100% the right move.

[DAF86]

If he ever develops a consistent 3 pt shot, he will become an elite role player. He still is a great one, he impacts the game on so many ways.

[spurraider21]

He’s a good role player and playing as a backup combo guard like he is with Boston is probably his ideal role. But if his shot is broken, yikes.

[exstatic]

thats fine. But sa isn't playing better because of jrich

They’re 11-10 since they got hom. That’s an improvement over the sub .400 team they were before.

[slick'81]

They’re 11-10 since they got hom. That’s an improvement over the sub .400 team they were before.

nice role player nothing more. Saying j-rich is the reason sa is winning is as asinine as saying white is the reason bos is winning.

[Mr. Body]

I have to say, I considered Richardson a throw-in. I was completely wrong. I may have to curb my enthusiasm at some point, but the team is much more balanced. His fit on offense is really impressive. Not a worldbeater, of course, but he doesn't have to be. He's a pro who knows the sets pretty well already. Mostly, he's able to push his attempts within the structure, and not just threes, but with cuts and short corners, hitting the baseline. He recognizes what the defense is giving up. Most importantly, he is not shy. At all. Alongside Lonnie, still suffering confidence issues, and Vassell, still learning what he's supposed to do, this is massive. Big not only in-game, but as a model to their development.

Really impressed with the pick-up, to be honest. I do think it's had significance for how they're playing.

[Sugus]

I have to say, I considered Richardson a throw-in. I was completely wrong. I may have to curb my enthusiasm at some point, but the team is much more balanced. His fit on offense is really impressive. Not a worldbeater, of course, but he doesn't have to be. He's a pro who knows the sets pretty well already. Mostly, he's able to push his attempts within the structure, and not just threes, but with cuts and short corners, hitting the baseline. He recognizes what the defense is giving up. Most importantly, he is not shy. At all. Alongside Lonnie, still suffering confidence issues, and Vassell, still learning what he's supposed to do, this is massive. Big not only in-game, but as a model to their development.

Really impressed with the pick-up, to be honest. I do think it's had significance for how they're playing.

This is exactly the reason I want the Spurs to retain him next season. I don't care wether the plan is to tank out the season or gun for the play-in, but we need these kind of vet presences, not only in the lockerroom but also in practices. Devin and Lonnie could both use the help in the areas Rich is already great at, and he seems to have nice chemistry with the team and been integrated well. He could really help the youngings' development through the off-season and next season too.

Solidly on "keep him at any cost" camp, tbh, which I also wasn't expecting to be when the trade was announced.

[R. DeMurre]

nice role player nothing more. .


"On Feb. 10, Boston ranked 21st in assist-to-turnover ratio and 19th in assist rate. Since, they’re fourth and seventh in those two categories, respectively. The percentage of their two-point field goals that are assisted with White on the floor is 13% higher than when he sits—best on the team among all players who’ve logged over 300 minutes."

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/03/16/derrick-white-boston-celtics-missing-piece



Role players are important. I don't think anyone here is arguing that White is a #1 go to option who will lead a championship team in scoring. He's a great glue guy, and most great teams have a glue guy who makes his stars better.

[Mr. Body]

Role players are important. I don't think anyone here is arguing that White is a #1 go to option who will lead a championship team in scoring. He's a great glue guy, and most great teams have a glue guy who makes his stars better.

The trade might have been equitable Richardson-White straight up. Richardson duplicates what Boston already has. They needed someone who can circulate the ball and be a facilitator, which White does really well. Spurs didn't need a facilitator because their offense isn't predicated on standing around waiting for Tatum or Brown to do something. Spurs needed a shooter/scorer who isn't quaking in his boots.

Then you add Langford, although I think he's gone, and then the pick, which can be bundled with Toronto's or traded to a team that falls in love with a player. Not to mention that swap down the line.

Definitely have changed my mind about this trade.

[R. DeMurre]

The trade might have been equitable Richardson-White straight up. Richardson duplicates what Boston already has. They needed someone who can circulate the ball and be a facilitator, which White does really well. Spurs didn't need a facilitator because their offense isn't predicated on standing around waiting for Tatum or Brown to do something. Spurs needed a shooter/scorer who isn't quaking in his boots.

Then you add Langford, although I think he's gone, and then the pick, which can be bundled with Toronto's or traded to a team that falls in love with a player. Not to mention that swap down the line.

Definitely have changed my mind about this trade.


For me, the swap pick is the big thing. That's a swing-for-the-fences kind of bet that could pay huge dividends. 2028 is an eternity away in terms of basketball years. Six years ago, the Spurs were trying to mesh Kawhi Leonard and LaMarcus Aldridge, while Boston's leading scorers were Isaiah Thomas and Avery Bradley. Their leading rebounder was Jared Sullinger. It's like another world in terms of rosters for both teams.

[RC_Drunkford]

Like I said there is no dropoff if you replace White with J-Rich. It's just that Pop doesn't play him to get the young guys some playing time, but the Spurs are not worse one bit and have an extra pick and a swap. The trade was great.

:wakeup