Deandre Ayton, the final piece of the puzzle?

[illusioNtEk]

All we need is a young bigman and we are set for the next 10 years. Make it happen RC :toast

Seems his party is not in good terms with the suns, can we afford him?

[Chinook]

No to both halves of the question. The last thing the Spurs need is a more expensive, non-star upgrade to their second-best player. That's the last thing they need, because they need a whole lot of other shit first.

[Mr. Body]

There are a lot of pieces needed and Ayton ain't one of them.

[Rubberducky]

If the Spurs signed Ayton and drafted Mathurin, Sean's Arizona references would reach the thousands per season.

[SAGirl]

I think if the Spurs wanted to they could make it happen. It also depends on if the player wants to play in S.A. And what the Suns want for him. There's some discussion about him in the whole off-season thread if you are interested in checking out other POV.

[SAGirl]

It's very complicated bc in addition to the player, the Suns, etc you also have to trade Jakob. So overall while I considered it, I think that's a no.

[mystargtr34]

I still think the Spurs should consider offering the max to Ayton (as a second choice after Lavine) if only because of the point that timvp made in a post a few weeks back where the Spurs young core are coming up for extensions which is going to eat up the cap space after next season. It’s either now or never. Keldon and Poeltl are due big pay rises in the next 12 months. If you sign those two theres goes all your cap space and your left with just the draft and trades to build your team.

Not saying you go out and do it but it should be considered strongly if there are no better ways to improve the team.

Ayton is young enough that if things don’t pan out after two years of the 4 year deal, he’ll still only be 26 years old after the 2024 season and you can trade him for other assets.

[ducks]

He could easy be a two star not a third wheel
Give him more touches and better coach he would be better on d
He is a much better max player then other guy who is it healthy

[mystargtr34]

While I’m not 100% sold on the idea, signing either Lavine or Ayton imo puts the Spurs on a much faster track of improving the team and getting back to the playoffs.

You sign Ayton, you can then draft Sochan or Eason at 9 and trade Poeltl for an upgrade at the 2/3. Or you sign Ayton, you can draft a Mathurin or Davis at 9 and trade Poeltl for a PF.

Yeah your salary cap is going to be way higher, but your going to be capped out in 12 months anyway when you sign Johnson or Poeltl to extensions. It obviously depends on ownership too if they’re willing to go to that level of salary/tax.

The one thing I’ll say about signing guys like Ayton and Lavine is that while they are talented offensive players, they both are pretty soft so they will only thrive if you put the right tough/defensive minded players around them.

[offset formation]

Motor concerns raised about him will scare ppl off

[ducks]

Lavine Will be like Leonard soon no lift
Stay away

[ducks]

Motor concerns raised about him will scare ppl off

Lol suns owner is cheap does not want to man up and pay
Kind of shocked he paid to give Chris another shot at title

[SAGirl]

While I’m not 100% sold on the idea, signing either Lavine or Ayton imo puts the Spurs on a much faster track of improving the team and getting back to the playoffs.

You sign Ayton, you can then draft Sochan or Eason at 9 and trade Poeltl for an upgrade at the 2/3. Or you sign Ayton, you can draft a Mathurin or Davis at 9 and trade Poeltl for a PF.

Yeah your salary cap is going to be way higher, but your going to be capped out in 12 months anyway when you sign Johnson or Poeltl to extensions. It obviously depends on ownership too if they’re willing to go to that level of salary/tax.

The one thing I’ll say about signing guys like Ayton and Lavine is that while they are talented offensive players, they both are pretty soft so they will only thrive if you put the right tough/defensive minded players around them.
Good point and the thing is that Jakob is as good as he's going to be at this point. Once the Spurs extend their players they are basically set with a core that can't make it past the play in, so that will be a mistake. They need to shake things up b4 then. I am not sure if this is the move but they will probably consider it. Ayton is better offensively than Jakob, is a lob threat for DJ, and also has a better jumper, can hit FT etc. He's an improvement over Jakob on the things he can do offensively.

His motor issues and competitiveness, in addition to the fallout with Monty is something the Spurs will have to consider, but I don't know if people remember that Lamarcus was a diva that quarelled with teammates and joined the Spurs after a horrid postseason showing with Portland where he wasn't even talking to teammates and played awful. So the Spurs may very well consider it if they want to move from Jakob, and they were already considering that -- they were just asking for a lot. Is this the trade they want?. I don't know, it's probably one of several being considered.

[offset formation]

Lol suns owner is cheap does not want to man up and pay
Kind of shocked he paid to give Chris another shot at title

what's up with you lately, ducks? you're actually sticking almost completely to basketball takes.

[goliath]

As others said, if we don’t use our cap space it’s going away soon. I would rather use it on ayton or Lavine then extend kelvin and vassel etc then not use it extend vassell and kelvin and lose the space

[pad300]

Final piece, definitely not. It's likely he's the best puzzle piece we can add through FA in this salary cap cycle (ie. without a tear down of our current roster to free cap space); as people have mentioned in this thread, we are in a position of use the cap space or lose the cap space (and I prefer Ayton to Lavine).

[Uriel]

You guys are crazy :lol Unless we draft a center, I would make Ayton a max offer on day one of free agency. The guy is young, has all-star potential, and would fit the timeline of our current roster. It’s a no-brainer.

The only real question is whether he would take our offer, and the answer is probably no.

[goliath]

I would hope we would have some idea if lavine is interested in signing before free agency opens. If he is I throw a max offer at him day one. If not, I throw a max offer at ayton. They are the best available this cap space cycle for us. Plus it’s not like top tier free agents are knocking down our door

[John B]

Ayton is not my 1st choice, but players like him don’t come knocking a lot. And yes an Eason pairing would be ideal.

[tbdog]

Spurs still need a guy putting the ball in the basket, like Lavine. Then spurs are a top 4 in the west team but will get bounced in the playoffs for not having the best player on the court.

Edit.top 4 if they get ayton as well.

[venitian navigator]

Ayton is a RFA.
Lavine is an UFA.
For having Ayton we have to deal a sign and trade with Phoenix and I frankly think that, differently from other teams with cap space, we have the pieces that could be of interest for Phoenix (Poeltl or Collins, Mcd, Richardson, K.J., Picks), plus the advantage of the good relationship with Monty Wiliams (and the bad one he has with the player...that probably will mean he's ok with trading him).
For having Lavine we can use just our cap space...

All in all, if we really love them, we could definitively have both, that obviously if both players choose and like our team and our plans...

Ideally : sign and trade we receive DAA on a 30 plus starting contract we give to Phoenix Poeltl, MC Dermott, Richardson (combined are 33 millions)

then we sign Lavine to another 30 millions per year contract (using cap space)

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Ayton is a RFA.

then we sign Lavine to another 30 millions per year contract (using cap space)

LaVine's max will start at closer to 40 million with the new projected cap for 2023.

[Fireball]

that guy is smoking too much weed ... and we need so many more puzzle pieces

[KobesAchilles]

It's tough bc you can't say oh we don't need to worry about a replacement to our second best player when yes, yes we do. Poeltl is a C player and a B player like Ayton would help us as an upgrade. But does he really help in the way that we need him to defensively. The guy got bodied up by Luka and flat out quit when adversity hit him. I can't get over that. Facing Luka 4 times a year and potentially in the playoffs might just kill his confidence. The dude needs to go East to save his career.

Plus Ayton has all the same flaws defensively as Poeltl. He gets dominated by elite big men and isn't really a factor on offense to take advantage of teams playing small. He's by far a better offensive player than Poeltl in that he is a lob threat and makes free throws, but not enough to move the needle. There's no real quick fix to the Spurs. We just don't have the horses to be good again. Lavine would help a lot, but it's just enough to be like CHI where we lose in the 1st round. But hey the MVP of the league got bounced in 5 games in the 1st round so we will be in good company

[RC_Drunkford]

Like I said in the other threads, if you can get him, get him. Trade Poeltl for more draft capital. See if you can get LaVine too. See how much Houston wants for the #3 pick. The Spurs have a ton of options and they better be wheeling and dealing like crazy to significantly improve the team since they don’t want to tank

[Mr. Body]

It's tough bc you can't say oh we don't need to worry about a replacement to our second best player when yes, yes we do. Poeltl is a C player and a B player like Ayton would help us as an upgrade. But does he really help in the way that we need him to defensively. The guy got bodied up by Luka and flat out quit when adversity hit him. I can't get over that. Facing Luka 4 times a year and potentially in the playoffs might just kill his confidence. The dude needs to go East to save his career.


Do you want to pay A++ money for a B player?

And, as you point out, he's not very good defensively. He's not a shot blocker and he isn't great in space. I'm not even sure he's that much better than Poeltl offensively -- Jakob made a big leap this year in scoring but especially as a facilitator, which Ayton is not. The only area where Ayton is clearly better is ft%.

[Leetonidas]

No. He will command a max and he is not good enough on either side of the ball to warrant it. Him being the highest paid player on our team will cripple our flexibility and ensure we remain on the treadmill. Plus there are questions about his drive and work ethic. Unless he's coming for 15-18 mil a season, no thanks

[Mr. Body]

No. He will command a max and he is not good enough on either side of the ball to warrant it. Him being the highest paid player on our team will cripple our flexibility and ensure we remain on the treadmill. Plus there are questions about his drive and work ethic. Unless he's coming for 15-18 mil a season, no thanks

This guy gets it.

[Ice009]

Do you want to pay A++ money for a B player?

And, as you point out, he's not very good defensively. He's not a shot blocker and he isn't great in space. I'm not even sure he's that much better than Poeltl offensively -- Jakob made a big leap this year in scoring but especially as a facilitator, which Ayton is not. The only area where Ayton is clearly better is ft%.

I personally, would not want to pay max money for a B player. If there was a chance of him becoming an A+ player I'd do it, but in this case, not sure he'll ever be one. I'd have to agree with Leetonidas' take.

[KobesAchilles]

Do you want to pay A++ money for a B player?

And, as you point out, he's not very good defensively. He's not a shot blocker and he isn't great in space. I'm not even sure he's that much better than Poeltl offensively -- Jakob made a big leap this year in scoring but especially as a facilitator, which Ayton is not. The only area where Ayton is clearly better is ft%.
I mean it's not A++ money for him bc that's the supermax in my eyes. But it still is like $32 million a year. I wouldn't pay him it, but without an elite big man we are going to be where we have been for the past couple of years (10th to 12th best record in the west)

I just want to say that there is no quick fix for this team. Our best bet is the Phoenix or Dallas routine. It takes luck and smarts bc we could be like the Pistons and Kings, but I believe that we are a better run organization than them, so with the same opportunity we will make the most of it.

[rjv]

not a hard pass but definitely a pass for me

[Ice009]

not a hard pass but definitely a pass for me

Yeah, pretty much the same for me.

Do you guys think he still has potential to improve much? This is the main question for me. If he can improve and become even an A- player (borderline All Star level player) at some point during the contact, I'd have a long hard think about going after him.

[Drom John]

If the Spurs don't draft a center, at the beginning of free agency, I would offer a Poeltl like contract to Mitchell Robinson.
Not because Robinson is as good as Poeltl, but because Robinson is worth Poeltl money. (Poeltl is worth more.)

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, pretty much the same for me.

Do you guys think he still has potential to improve much? This is the main question for me. If he can improve and become even an A- player (borderline All Star level player) at some point during the contact, I'd have a long hard think about going after him.

TBH, everything about how he's acted and what he's said reads John Collins to me, and dozens of other players who are aiming for that big contract and then stop working hard after they get it. I don't like contract year players especially one who's so expensive.

[cd98]

Given Ayton staying up late gaming the day before a game and stuff like that and the tension it brought to the Suns, I doubt the Spurs go for that. In fact, I think a lot of teams will be somewhat weary of that.

[slick'81]

Given Ayton staying up late gaming the day before a game and stuff like that and the tension it brought to the Suns, I doubt the Spurs go for that. In fact, I think a lot of teams will be somewhat weary of that.


wat ? He stayed up late playing video games one night? Thats the knock:lol

[Ice009]

TBH, everything about how he's acted and what he's said reads John Collins to me, and dozens of other players who are aiming for that big contract and then stop working hard after they get it. I don't like contract year players especially one who's so expensive.

Hearing the term "contract year player "brings back memories of Erick Dampier back in the day. He's someone I remember as a contract year player. If Ayton is in the same category, I will pass.

[rjv]

i don't know about the video gaming but there have been questions about ayton's attitude, including a game 7 feud with monty.

[KingKev]

All we need is a young bigman and we are set for the next 10 years. Make it happen RC :toast

Seems his party is not in good terms with the suns, can we afford him?

You can’t honestly believe this?

DJ/Vassell/Primo/Keldon/Ayton isn’t even a playoff team.

[pad300]

Yeah, pretty much the same for me.

Do you guys think he still has potential to improve much? This is the main question for me. If he can improve and become even an A- player (borderline All Star level player) at some point during the contact, I'd have a long hard think about going after him.

He's shown no sign of plateau-ing yet, and he's only 23. Also, bigs tend to be a little later developing (for example, consider what Poeltl has done with us, from age 23 to 26)

[pad300]

...
Plus Ayton has all the same flaws defensively as Poeltl. He gets dominated by elite big men and isn't really a factor on offense to take advantage of teams playing small. He's by far a better offensive player than Poeltl in that he is a lob threat and makes free throws, but not enough to move the needle. ...

Really? (All stats from Stathead basketball)

Jokic vs Ayton, Head to Head in the playoffs, Last Year.
https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=jokicni01&player_id2=aytonde01#stats_playoffs

They single covered Jokic with Ayton. Domination it was not. Compare with Poeltl vs Jokic in the playoffs (2019)

https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=jokicni01&player_id2=poeltja01#stats_playoffs

Valancuinas vs Ayton, Head to Head in the playoffs, this year
https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=valanjo01&player_id2=aytonde01#stats_playoffs

I'd say Ayton took that argument... Poeltl meanwhile

Val vs Poeltl (regular season - they have never had a playoff series HtH)

https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=valanjo01&player_id2=poeltja01#stats

As I've said before about Poeltl:


... He's got strategic flaws: First, like Gobert, he can't punish a team that plays tiny ball against him (note that both he and Gobert are OK for C's on the perimeter). This weakness has been the Jazz's downfall in a couple of playoff series. Second, he gets his shit pushed in a by a good classical big man; see what J Val consistently does to him. Getting wrecked both by tiny ball and by classic ball, at least 1 weakness too many for a starter at a championship level - you will face teams that can play both those styles before you ring...

Ayton doesn't have either of those problems. He's young, and can potentially get better. For an FA we can actually get (ie. not the Lebron's and Durant's of the world), he about as good as we could hope to draw... and either we use the space this summer or it goes away.

[KobesAchilles]

Really? (All stats from Stathead basketball)

Jokic vs Ayton, Head to Head in the playoffs, Last Year.
https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=jokicni01&player_id2=aytonde01#stats_playoffs

They single covered Jokic with Ayton. Domination it was not. Compare with Poeltl vs Jokic in the playoffs (2019)

https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=jokicni01&player_id2=poeltja01#stats_playoffs

Valancuinas vs Ayton, Head to Head in the playoffs, this year
https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=valanjo01&player_id2=aytonde01#stats_playoffs

I'd say Ayton took that argument... Poeltl meanwhile

Val vs Poeltl (regular season - they have never had a playoff series HtH)

https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=valanjo01&player_id2=poeltja01#stats

As I've said before about Poeltl:



Ayton doesn't have either of those problems. He's young, and can potentially get better. For an FA we can actually get (ie. not the Lebron's and Durant's of the world), he about as good as we could hope to draw... and either we use the space this summer or it goes away.
I mean that backed up what I said to a tee. Thanks for reinforcing my statement I guess. I said he was better offensively than Poeltl but he still gets manhandled by bigmen and keeping Jokic to 27 points, 10 rebounds, and 7 assists, isn't limiting Jokic at all. Then you showed me a series where Jokic put up similar numbers against Poeltl. So defensively he isn't really an upgrade.

And this year when Dallas went small and spaced the floor, Ayton wasn't able to dominate offensively to make Dallas pay for playing so small. In fact, he was being sought after time after time bc he sucks so much against small ball/ pace and space.

Ayton isn't going to get any better. He had Chris Paul giving him easy shots where it upped his field goal percentage by a lot. He went from mid 50s in FG% to mid 60s with CP3. That's not a coincidence. Ayton is done as a player. Luka broke him. He is now seen as a bust. He needs to go East and restart his career. Find a way to go to CHA and play with a pass first point guard like Ball. Bc Phoenix will lose next year in the 1st round, even with him, and then CP3 will be broken and that team is done in 2024. Ayton will be known as the player picked above Luka and you look back at and say well he averaged 13 and 8 for his career, so he wasn't a complete bust, but given that he was picked over Luka Legend we still put him on the list of all-time greatest busts.

[rjv]

I mean that backed up what I said to a tee. Thanks for reinforcing my statement I guess. I said he was better offensively than Poeltl but he still gets manhandled by bigmen and keeping Jokic to 27 points, 10 rebounds, and 7 assists, isn't limiting Jokic at all. Then you showed me a series where Jokic put up similar numbers against Poeltl. So defensively he isn't really an upgrade.

And this year when Dallas went small and spaced the floor, Ayton wasn't able to dominate offensively to make Dallas pay for playing so small. In fact, he was being sought after time after time bc he sucks so much against small ball/ pace and space.

Ayton isn't going to get any better. He had Chris Paul giving him easy shots where it upped his field goal percentage by a lot. He went from mid 50s in FG% to mid 60s with CP3. That's not a coincidence. Ayton is done as a player. Luka broke him. He is now seen as a bust. He needs to go East and restart his career. Find a way to go to CHA and play with a pass first point guard like Ball. Bc Phoenix will lose next year in the 1st round, even with him, and then CP3 will be broken and that team is done in 2024. Ayton will be known as the player picked above Luka and you look back at and say well he averaged 13 and 8 for his career, so he wasn't a complete bust, but given that he was picked over Luka Legend we still put him on the list of all-time greatest busts.

patrick beverley said as much the other day when he used DeAndre Jordan as an example of a player that CP3 made look better than he actually was.

[T Park]

A dinosaur player in a league, especially the west, that is getting smaller. No thanks.

[cd98]

wat ? He stayed up late playing video games one night? Thats the knock:lol

Yes, oddly. He stayed up and didn't sleep and then had a playoff game the next day and it messes with his play. I mean, it's not the worst infraction by an NBA player, Stephen Jackson used to play stoned, but when you are on a team that can realistically contend for a title, you have to be mature in decisionmaking to ensure you are at your optimal. Apparently they got mad at his addiction to gaming and he didn't take that too well.

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/latest-news/deandre-aytons-video-game-obsession-will-cost-him-a-lot-on-and-off-the-court

[Mr. Body]

Michael Jordan used to stay up all night gambling. His vaunted flu game he was just hungover.

[cd98]

Michael Jordan used to stay up all night gambling. His vaunted flu game he was just hungover.

Well that is likely true, but when Ayton plays like MJ, then he can game all night.

[KingKev]

Michael Jordan used to stay up all night gambling. His vaunted flu game he was just hungover.

He dropped like 40 that game… there is an old saying in my industry out like boys, in like men!

Ayton didn’t perform though

[Chomag]

The homers here just honestly cracks me up sometimes. They act like any player outside the Spurs is a scrub. Well fact is most the Spurs current roster are scrubs. Well ok we have 1 borderline all-star that took years of development I might add and maybe 1 or 2 that have the potential to be a borderline Allstar. Spurs do have to take a swing or two for the fences if the want to have a chance for a star level player and we all know it could take a decade through drafting to find a a level talent.

I ask yall what do yall want to do with Murray's timeline then, do you want to to bring in all level talent to play with him or try to develop talent hoping they turn out to be elite with will most likely take 3-4 more years of development if it all goes well.

How long do yall think Murray will give the Spurs FO a chance to get elite talent to compete with him before he thinks it might be time for him to look towards other opportunities?

We don't currently have Drob or a Duncan to make players want to come in and stay here. Of course this all might be moot and Ayton might not want nothing to do with the Spurs but to say the Spurs shouldn't be showing any interest is stupid if you ask me.

SAN ANTONIO is not a top free agent destination so to be picky and choosy in the market is pretty baffling to me.The Spurs have allot of capspace this off-season that they will not have for the following season.

[KingKev]

The homers here just honestly cracks me up sometimes. They act like any player outside the Spurs is a scrub. Well fact is most the Spurs current roster are scrubs. Well ok we have 1 borderline all-star that took years of development I might add and maybe 1 or 2 that have the potential to be a borderline Allstar. Spurs do have to take a swing or two for the fences if the want to have a chance for a star level player and we all know it could take a decade through drafting to find a a level talent.

I ask yall what do yall want to do with Murray's timeline then, do you want to to bring in all level talent to play with him or try to develop talent hoping they turn out to be elite with will most likely take 3-4 more years of development if it all goes well.

How long do yall think Murray will give the Spurs FO a chance to get elite talent to compete with him before he thinks it might be time for him to look towards other opportunities?

We don't currently have Drob or a Duncan to make players want to come in and stay here. Of course this all might be moot and Ayton might not want nothing to do with the Spurs but to say the Spurs shouldn't be showing any interest is stupid if you ask me.

SAN ANTONIO is not a top free agent destination so to be picky and choosy in the market is pretty baffling to me.The Spurs have allot of capspace this off-season that they will not have for the following season.

So how does Ayton change this? I don’t even disagree with your assessment of our talent but Ayton isn’t elite talent what so ever. He, Keldon, DJ, Jak are slightly abive average players. He makes sense at his max for some teams. For us he is going to cost young assets to procure plus his max. HARD PASS

[Mr. Body]

The homers here just honestly cracks me up sometimes. They act like any player outside the Spurs is a scrub. Well fact is most the Spurs current roster are scrubs. Well ok we have 1 borderline all-star that took years of development I might add and maybe 1 or 2 that have the potential to be a borderline Allstar. Spurs do have to take a swing or two for the fences if the want to have a chance for a star level player and we all know it could take a decade through drafting to find a a level talent.

I ask yall what do yall want to do with Murray's timeline then, do you want to to bring in all level talent to play with him or try to develop talent hoping they turn out to be elite with will most likely take 3-4 more years of development if it all goes well.

How long do yall think Murray will give the Spurs FO a chance to get elite talent to compete with him before he thinks it might be time for him to look towards other opportunities?

We don't currently have Drob or a Duncan to make players want to come in and stay here. Of course this all might be moot and Ayton might not want nothing to do with the Spurs but to say the Spurs shouldn't be showing any interest is stupid if you ask me.

SAN ANTONIO is not a top free agent destination so to be picky and choosy in the market is pretty baffling to me.The Spurs have allot of capspace this off-season that they will not have for the following season.

Are you kind of in love with Ayton because he was the #1 pick?

[duncan2150]

I really think if you have a shot at him, get him !

He was underused in Phoenix. Watching him at Arizona he's more of a capable offensive player, he could be dominant. He already showed that part of his game in the NBA scoring 16 pts with 12 shot per game in 4 years. He can do way more but he'll at least give you a solid 18 pts 12 rebounds a night.

The concerns are his rim protection and the big one is that he's a gamer lol he said that he doesn't sleep much 3 or 4 hours because of that not good for a Sportsman.

[Chomag]

So how does Ayton change this? I don’t even disagree with your assessment of our talent but Ayton isn’t elite talent what so ever. He, Keldon, DJ, Jak are slightly abive average players. He makes sense at his max for some teams. For us he is going to cost young assets to procure plus his max. HARD PASS

Yes, I understand that Ayton maybe a bust for us there is always that chance but I don't see anywhere that he is not a top free agent and he is only 23. If we want the Spurs to stand pat and stay the corse of developing their young talent into elite players then that fine too, but in that reality Spurs need to consider moving Murray for picks to go along that timeline of development. Why hold on to Murray if we don't want to compete? I'm not saying Ayton is the answer to anything but if you have a chance to lure in a top free agent then you take it.

[Chomag]

Are you kind of in love with Ayton because he was the #1 pick?
Well, if we have a shot at him without giving up much of the talent that we currently have then yes.

Ayton kind of reminds me of a young Shawn Kemp, when Kemp first entered the league he was immature and had a bit of the sane red flags as Ayton, but as soon as Kemp matured and wised up he became a pretty legit force in the NBA during his prime.

[KingKev]

Well, if we have a shot at him without giving up much of the talent that we currently have then yes.

It’s going to cost you though. Probably Jak and an FRP min.

[Chomag]

It’s going to cost you though. Probably Jak and an FRP min.

How much do you think Jak is going to ask for after his contract expires next year, what do you think the market will be for him?

[KingKev]

How much do you think Jak is going to ask for after his contract expires next year, what do you think the market will be for him?

15-20mm. I’d rather get something cheaper or draft capital in return than pay him and I’d rather retain him at that price than pay Ayton.

[MannyIsGod]

You guys are crazy :lol Unless we draft a center, I would make Ayton a max offer on day one of free agency. The guy is young, has all-star potential, and would fit the timeline of our current roster. It’s a no-brainer.

The only real question is whether he would take our offer, and the answer is probably no.

What's crazy is thinking that we should offer the max to all star potential.

[illusioNtEk]

DJ/Vassell/Primo/Keldon/Ayton isn’t even a playoff team.

More like a finals team tbh

[mo7888]

15-20mm. I’d rather get something cheaper or draft capital in return than pay him and I’d rather retain him at that price than pay Ayton.

Exactly the order in which I value those guys...

[lmbebo]

Exactly the order in which I value those guys...

at 15-20M, I think Phoenix would keep him.

[Uriel]

What's crazy is thinking that we should offer the max to all star potential.
In a vacuum, I would agree with you. But it’s the market that sets the price, and that would most likely be the price he would command. It’s the only way we would have any chance of getting him.

[mo7888]

at 15-20M, I think Phoenix would keep him.

That was the yearly price for Jak's next contract estimate..

[ducks]

What's crazy is thinking that we should offer the max to all star potential.

Get David and Tim to work with him

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs fans: "We need to tank so we can get a top 3 pick"

also Spurs fans: "Hell no we shouldn't sign the 2018 #1 pick in free agency"

[Mr. Body]

Spurs fans: "We need to tank so we can get a top 3 pick"

also Spurs fans: "Hell no we shouldn't sign the 2018 #1 pick in free agency"

Exactly, we should sign Anthony Bennett and Andrea Bargnani while we're at it.

[kht]

Any reports that the Spurs are even interested in this guy?

[Mr. Body]

Any reports that the Spurs are even interested in this guy?

Nope. It's just the latest gilded bull the mindless sparrows of SpursTalk flock around. He's the new John Collins and Lauri Markkanen.

[gambit1990]

he’s not the one.

but is also probably the best the spurs could get…

[SAGirl]

Ayton vs the Pelicans in the playoffs… not a regular season game.

https://youtu.be/W1ETWpfBZuE
I had forgotten about it, but there’s some post up moves here, there’s a 3, there’s blocks, steals, an assist, there’s jumpshots, turnaround jumpshots, jump hooks. The offensive skill he has is vastly superior to Jakob. He doesn’t need to pass the ball as often as Jakob bc he finishes way more plays. And hes only 23 as of now. I think there’s untapped potential there in the right situation.

Consider how much Jakob improved between ages 23-26 and how bigs continue to develop later than guards. I still see this acquisition as doubtful. But hes skilled and not in his prime yet.

By the way, the shots hes making there are not Deandre Jordan shots, who never fixed his FT shooting btw. This is not just a run and lob C.

[offset formation]

he’s not the one.

but is also probably the best the spurs could get…

Not sure he'd even go to a Pop coached team. He knows the coaching tree with Monty learning under Pop. If he didn't gel with Monty, I don't see Pop even offering or if it was offered, Ayton accepting it.

[SAGirl]

You can’t honestly believe this?

DJ/Vassell/Primo/Keldon/Ayton isn’t even a playoff team.
Primo is not a starting level player. He needs to go to the bench until he improves his shooting at least. You switch Keldon to the 3 and play someone else as a 4. There’s room for improvement to that proposition.

[SAGirl]

It’s going to cost you though. Probably Jak and an FRP min.
That shouldn’t be a problem if Spurs want him.
Spurs are already fielding offers for Jakob first of all, then why amass multiple FRP if you don’t turn them into a player?They aren’t going to want multiple teenagers every year. Sometimes the best use for that FRP is to use it in a trade like this, vs being stuck with 4 like this year.

[duncan2150]

Ayton vs the Pelicans in the playoffs… not a regular season game.

https://youtu.be/W1ETWpfBZuE
I had forgotten about it, but there’s some post up moves here, there’s a 3, there’s blocks, steals, an assist, there’s jumpshots, turnaround jumpshots, jump hooks. The offensive skill he has is vastly superior to Jakob. He doesn’t need to pass the ball as often as Jakob bc he finishes way more plays. And hes only 23 as of now. I think there’s untapped potential there in the right situation.

Consider how much Jakob improved between ages 23-26 and how bigs continue to develop later than guards. I still see this acquisition as doubtful. But hes skilled and not in his prime yet.

By the way, the shots hes making there are not Deandre Jordan shots, who never fixed his FT shooting btw. This is not just a run and lob C.


I think a lot of people don't know his talent, the way Phoenix plays we don't see him too much. He's really talented.

Imo it's a no brainer for a team like us who can't afford the top of the FA. The only red flag like i said is the video games.

[CGD]

Draft Davis and sign Ayton, and together with Vassell we have the makings our own (poor man’s) version of what PHX has now in their Ayton, Bridges, Booker core.

[KingKev]

Draft Davis and sign Ayton, and together with Vassell we have the makings our own (poor man’s) version of what PHX has now in their Ayton, Bridges, Booker core.

poor man’s version or broke? Like broke, broke.

Vassell is a very overrated defender on this board.

[John B]

Ayton is a RFA.
Lavine is an UFA.
For having Ayton we have to deal a sign and trade with Phoenix and I frankly think that, differently from other teams with cap space, we have the pieces that could be of interest for Phoenix (Poeltl or Collins, Mcd, Richardson, K.J., Picks), plus the advantage of the good relationship with Monty Wiliams (and the bad one he has with the player...that probably will mean he's ok with trading him).
For having Lavine we can use just our cap space...

All in all, if we really love them, we could definitively have both, that obviously if both players choose and like our team and our plans...

Ideally : sign and trade we receive DAA on a 30 plus starting contract we give to Phoenix Poeltl, MC Dermott, Richardson (combined are 33 millions)

then we sign Lavine to another 30 millions per year contract (using cap space)

I think Poeltl for Ayton would be an interest especially if Pop could sell Poeltl as a prime defender. And Suns could use J-Rich (I actually like this guy) as a vet defensive guy, and McBuckets would really be good with a contender (it’s a cliche but valid point). It would be crazy if Spurs can pull that off. But maybe Sun would ask for more :lol. But it’s worth a try

[KingKev]

I think Poeltl for Ayton would be an interest especially if Pop could sell Poeltl as a prime defender. And Suns could use J-Rich (I actually like this guy) as a vet defensive guy, and McBuckets would really be good with a contender (it’s a cliche but valid point). It would be crazy if Spurs can pull that off. But maybe Sun would ask for more :lol. But it’s worth a try

That is a pipe dream:

- Suns would be taking on more salary than paying Ayton max
- McDermott alone probably requires you to throw in an FRP
- To retain JRich/Jak Suns will be adding another 10mm in 2023

[KobesAchilles]

Spurs fans: "We need to tank so we can get a top 3 pick"

also Spurs fans: "Hell no we shouldn't sign the 2018 #1 pick in free agency"
I’m pretty sure we would’ve chosen Luka with the first pick that year.

[John B]

That is a pipe dream:

- Suns would be taking on more salary than paying Ayton max
- McDermott alone probably requires you to throw in an FRP
- To retain JRich/Jak Suns will be adding another 10mm in 2023

Then throw in Saric salary. Monty benching Ayton on game 7 says something. The point is with PATFO’s relationship, they should explore if there’s any. J-Rich and McBuckets are valid vet help that can tweak what’s needed. I think Poeltl could improve, again with a contender, and Spurs will get in return a 23 yrs old big man who would just improve especially with the Spurs who had big men like DRob and Timmy historically, and would be the focal point of offense at Spurs instead of a second fiddle to Booker. Throw in #25 pick as sweetener. It’s worth trying I think.

[KingKev]

I’m pretty sure we would’ve chosen Luka with the first pick that year.

Luka Samminic a year early? Wouldn’t wanted to have lost out on him in the second round in 2019.

LOL i’m only half kidding.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Let’s sign Ayton and Lavine. Successful off-season…check.

[John B]

Let’s sign Ayton and Lavine. Successful off-season…check.

And with 3 FRP’s, it could be a very fruitful off-season if PATFO plays their cards right.

[KingKev]

And with 3 FRP’s, it could be a very fruitful off-season if PATFO plays their cards right.

More pipedreams to put together a shittier Phoenix Sun roster?

It’ll be impossible to keep our 3 FRPs and get that done.

[John B]

More pipedreams to put together a shittier Phoenix Sun roster?

It’ll be impossible to keep our 3 FRPs and get that done.

Bruh, then give them our #25. No big deal.

All I’m saying is there are great opportunities out there, given Sun’s situation, relationship with Monty, Spurs huge cap, possible trade assets, picks, etc. Spurs are in great position if they play their cards right.

[KingKev]

Bruh, then give them our #25. No big deal.

All I’m saying is there are great opportunities out there, given Sun’s situation, relationship with Monty, Spurs huge cap, possible trade assets, picks, etc. Spurs are in great position if they play their cards right.

Monty is the coach and not the GM.

We’d have to move Jak, McD, JRich, waive Collins and move all 3 FRPs to make the cap work alone. Plus enticements to make the cap work so that may include Keldon or the guy you think will average 25/5/5 in the near future.

Hardly playing their cards right.

[Chomag]

It's funny that people here are acting like Ayton is a scrub when he averaged 17pt and 11reb in the regular season on a playoff contending team and had a 21 Point 12 rebound game right before the one he got benched on. Thats about right on track for a talented 23 year old

[Mr. Body]

It's funny that people here are acting like Ayton is a scrub when he averaged 17pt and 11reb in the regular season on a playoff contending team and had a 21 Point 12 rebound game right before the one he got benched on. Thats about right on track for a talented 23 year old

No one's saying he's a scrub. People are saying he's been provided a burst (as Booker has) because he gets fed a lot by Chris Paul. Paul has made the whole team better.

More to the point, people are saying he's not worth the max that a #1 pick gets, which is true. That's just an absurd contract for a guy who won't have Paul, beside the fact that he can't shoot from deep and isn't a shot blocker. And also seems to have character and 'contract year player' issues.

[Chomag]

I think a lot of people don't know his talent, the way Phoenix plays we don't see him too much. He's really talented.

Imo it's a no brainer for a team like us who can't afford the top of the FA. The only red flag like i said is the video games.
Tim Duncan was known to be a gamer so there is that...
Of course Tim was allot more mature perhaps and knew how to balance it much better in his life. IT would be awesome if Timmy mentored him while he was here.

[SAGirl]

Tim Duncan was known to be a gamer so there is that...
Of course Tim was allot more mature perhaps and knew how to balance it much better in his life. IT would be awesome if Timmy mentored him while he was here.
Thats not even worrisome to me. The games are played late at night, and after traveling overnight often, the sleep rhythm for many of this guys is not the same as someone who works an 8-5 for sure.
Then you add that some of these stars deal with the stress or nerves of an important game going out to the club, and enjoying some drinks with some girls on the side, and you see why Ayton playing video games is the least of anyones worries.

[SAGirl]

No one's saying he's a scrub. People are saying he's been provided a burst (as Booker has) because he gets fed a lot by Chris Paul. Paul has made the whole team better.

More to the point, people are saying he's not worth the max that a #1 pick gets, which is true. That's just an absurd contract for a guy who won't have Paul, beside the fact that he can't shoot from deep and isn't a shot blocker. And also seems to have character and 'contract year player' issues.
Playing with these guys has actually extended CP3 bookshelf life. I stand by my statement that the Suns dont get out of the first round without him. Booker got injured and outside of CP3 no one could produce a self generated shot.
I looked at the footage, and sure CP3 fed him the ball in good spots, but many other shots came off post ups and turn around jumpshots that anyone on the Spurs would struggle to make, let alone hit in a playoff game as we have clearly seen.

I am convinced he’d make the Spurs better. I dont know whether the Spurs want him or he wants to join the Spurs, but they have the assets to make this happen if they want, and the Spurs historically like to build teams around centers that are offensive threats. The last time they made the playoffs Lamarcus was playing as a C for them.

I think they are at least looking at him and he’s young and healthy, no bad knees or back.

The Monty situation is the one that is touchy, but he was thrown as a scapegoat, and then unlike all his other flaming out teammates, who were paid, are on huge deals with guaranteed money, hes going into the summer with an uncertain future. Id be sour grapes too.

Also, the fact he has so famous teammates actually takes pressure and shots off him. I think there’s potentially more there. The Suns were already playing better when CP3 joined them. Why do you think he went there? He didnt want to sign with Orlando to play with all their bigs right? He went there because they had enough talent to take them to the promised land. I actually think the real flameout is Devin Booker tbqh with you and Id be happy to take Ayton away from the Suns.

Probably wont happen though and I am setting myself up for disappointment.

[KingKev]

Thats not even worrisome to me. The games are played late at night, and after traveling overnight often, the sleep rhythm for many of this guys is not the same as someone who works an 8-5 for sure.
Then you add that some of these stars deal with the stress or nerves of an important game going out to the club, and enjoying some drinks with some girls on the side, and you see why Ayton playing video games is the least of anyones worries.

Seriously. Tim Duncan probably played Dungeons N Dragonz all night before game 7 of the Finals in 2005.

Stephen Jackson almost assuredly was at strip club night before hitting game winners in 2003.

Who knows what Parker and Erin Barry were up all night sxting during that 05’ run.

Pop is literally wine drunk 24/7.

Winners win.

[daslicer]

Seriously. Tim Duncan probably played Dungeons N Dragonz all night before game 7 of the Finals in 2005.

Stephen Jackson almost assuredly was at strip club night before hitting game winners in 2003.

Who knows what Parker and Erin Barry were up all night sxting during that 05’ run.

Pop is literally wine drunk 24/7.

Winners win.

Agreed. Everybody has different ways of preparing for playoff games. I remember Horry would say he would never go out to clubs during the playoffs and would stay inside for the whole entire playoffs to keep his focus while a guy like Rodman would go out partying the night before and still win when he was with the bulls. It doesn't matter to me as long as you show up.

[Ditty]

I have a feeling the Spurs will make a harder run at Ayton than Lavine. I think they will have a good chance of him signing the offer sheet if he is offered the max. It would be up to Phoenix to match.

[KingKev]

Agreed. Everybody has different ways of preparing for playoff games. I remember Horry would say he would never go out to clubs during the playoffs and would stay inside for the whole entire playoffs to keep his focus while a guy like Rodman would go out partying the night before and still win when he was with the bulls. It doesn't matter to me as long as you show up.

Yeah because Horry was a party guy but probably knew his limits. I met him at EBC in like 2013 and he was partying by himself lol.

[Ditty]

I don’t think he is final piece of the puzzle I still think we need a few more guys to develop. Would like to see him work with Duncan.

[wildbill2u]

Whatever happened to the Suns in game 7 was a complete embarrassment that led to some very raw emotions and a conflict, notably between Ayton and coach. A conflict like that happens sometimes when game adrenalin is high, but it takes a lot of understanding and work to heal the rift. I actually got into a fight once with an assistant coach who was a friend and former teammate back in the locker room after a bad loss. This could be a game changer in the Ayton situation in Phoenix.

I don't know enough about him to make a managerial decision, but he sounds like a player we could use if the price is right.

[TD 21]

:lmao At the notion of one of the least talented teams in the league being a finishing big away from being "set".

He'd likely be more interested in them (opportunity to chase counting stats and individual accolades), as would the Suns (if it comes to it, considering Poeltl is a readymade centerpiece of a package, the possibility of dumping Saric, etc.) than vice versa considering he's not a boy scout.

[lmbebo]

I think Ayton is an improvement over Poetl.

We have money to use, it'll get eatten into pretty quickly by extensions, summer signings, etc.

If he's available and wanting to come, would have to take a hard look at him. Not sure he takes over the hump. Not sure what the grand plan is either. We aren't playing well, playing just well enough to sneak into the play in tournament and play ourselves out of high lotto picks.

[rascal]

I think Poeltl for Ayton would be an interest especially if Pop could sell Poeltl as a prime defender. And Suns could use J-Rich (I actually like this guy) as a vet defensive guy, and McBuckets would really be good with a contender (it’s a cliche but valid point). It would be crazy if Spurs can pull that off. But maybe Sun would ask for more :lol. But it’s worth a try

Suns won't do that. The Suns can do better elsewhere.

[rascal]

I think Ayton is an improvement over Poetl.

We have money to use, it'll get eatten into pretty quickly by extensions, summer signings, etc.

If he's available and wanting to come, would have to take a hard look at him. Not sure he takes over the hump. Not sure what the grand plan is either. We aren't playing well, playing just well enough to sneak into the play in tournament and play ourselves out of high lotto picks.

It really was a failed season for the future progress of the team to win just enough to fall out of the top draft guys and get bounced out of the play in.

Without a blockbuster trade on draft night I don't see any new addition from this draft really making enough of an impact to next year's team to make it all that much better.

[CGD]

It really was a failed season for the future progress of the team to win just enough to fall out of the top draft guys and get bounced out of the play in.

Without a blockbuster trade on draft night I don't see any new addition from this draft really making enough of an impact to next year's team to make it all that much better.

It’s a little dramatic, but I feel your pain. For me there were some important milestones this year between Pops record, DJs Allstar berth, front office being aggressive on the trade front, and internal growth of some players like Keldon and Jakob.

But I’m hoping to see a theory of the case here soon. Was White the start of transitioning/cycling to the next crop of players? If not, what FA are they bringing in to build around DJ and Jakob this summer?

[RC_Drunkford]

No one's saying he's a scrub. People are saying he's been provided a burst (as Booker has) because he gets fed a lot by Chris Paul. Paul has made the whole team better.

More to the point, people are saying he's not worth the max that a #1 pick gets, which is true. That's just an absurd contract for a guy who won't have Paul, beside the fact that he can't shoot from deep and isn't a shot blocker. And also seems to have character and 'contract year player' issues.

DJ was feeding Poeltl all season and was right behind CP3 in assists and TO ratio, so I don't understand where the issue is. Besides that Ayton actually didn't get a lot of touches on the Suns being the 3rd option. The guy only got 12 FGAs per game

[ducks]

Suns won't do that. The Suns can do better elsewhere.

Suns need a d guy poeltil is a good shot blocky
Booker and Paul are the two main scores
Ayton wants to be a number one or two guy on o not the third option

What d center can suns convince to give ayton on a max sign and trade deal

Spurs also could throw the 38 pick

[T Park]

I’m pretty sure we would’ve chosen Luka with the first pick that year.

Kawhi for the first pick was a done deal until the suns backed out draft day. Luka was gonna be the pick.

[Mr. Body]

Kawhi for the first pick was a done deal until the suns backed out draft day. Luka was gonna be the pick.

Doubt

[John B]

Kawhi for the first pick was a done deal until the suns backed out draft day. Luka was gonna be the pick.

Kawhi to a California team, Kings would have been the perfect drafting Luka at 2, and Kawhi impossibly ringing with the Kings.

[KingKev]

^ Luka Samminic

[CGD]

What’s the drop off between Ayton and Bamba?

[exstatic]

What’s the drop off between Ayton and Bamba?

Mt. Everest.

[KingKev]

Mt. Everest.

Not really.

[Mr. Body]

DJ was feeding Poeltl all season and was right behind CP3 in assists and TO ratio, so I don't understand where the issue is. Besides that Ayton actually didn't get a lot of touches on the Suns being the 3rd option. The guy only got 12 FGAs per game

Would I take Ayton at the salary Poeltl gets? Sure. But I'd still think about it, considering Ayton doesn't block shots.

Would I take Ayton at the max for a #1 pick? Fuck no.

[DAF86]

The Spurs are more than one piece away, and none of those is a center.

[RC_Drunkford]

Would I take Ayton at the salary Poeltl gets? Sure. But I'd still think about it, considering Ayton doesn't block shots.

Would I take Ayton at the max for a #1 pick? Fuck no.

Ayton averaged the same number of blocks that Poeltl gets for the past 2 seasons before this one

[Ice009]

Kawhi for the first pick was a done deal until the suns backed out draft day. Luka was gonna be the pick.

If this is true, that's exactly what I wanted the Spurs to do that draft. I wanted them to trade with Sacramento too when Luka was still available, but didn't realize they tried to get Luka at number 1. If they actually tried this and it was in play, I can at least rest easy knowing they went for it.

[Mr. Body]

Ayton averaged the same number of blocks that Poeltl gets for the past 2 seasons before this one

No, not even on a per game basis. Per 36 minutes, Poeltl is way ahead.

So in a contract year, Ayton really really sucked at blocking shots. More question about his effort and interest in the game.

[Drom John]

Blocks per game:

1) Jaren Jackson, Jr.

4) Mitchell Robinson (my choice for UFA to pursue if we don't draft a C.)

7) Jakob Poeltl

41) Derrick White
42T) Kyle Anderson, Deandre Ayton and others

[KingKev]

Blocks per game:

1) Jaren Jackson, Jr.

4) Mitchell Robinson (my choice for UFA to pursue if we don't draft a C.)

7) Jakob Poeltl

41) Derrick White
42T) Kyle Anderson, Deandre Ayton and others


Mo Bamba def top 10

[Drom John]

RFA Bamba is 5th

[k830713]

Oladipo + Bamba > Ayton

[T Park]

If this is true, that's exactly what I wanted the Spurs to do that draft. I wanted them to trade with Sacramento too when Luka was still available, but didn't realize they tried to get Luka at number 1. If they actually tried this and it was in play, I can at least rest easy knowing they went for it.


It was done so much that it was being reported in Boston as done. Sarver nixed it day of the draft, wanted the hometown kid instead.

[Mr. Body]

It was done so much that it was being reported in Boston as done. Sarver nixed it day of the draft, wanted the hometown kid instead.

Doubt

[RC_Drunkford]

Blocks per game 2021

6. Jakob Poeltl 1.8
17. DeAndre Ayton 1.2

[Mr. Body]

Blocks per game 2021

6. Jakob Poeltl 1.8
17. DeAndre Ayton 1.2

Is it 2021 already?

Ayton dropped to a piddly 0.7 this last season (a contract season!).

Even in 2021, per 36 minutes, Poeltl registered 2.4 blocks, Ayton registered 1.4.

[KingKev]

Oladipo + Bamba > Ayton

This is an underrated comment. Timing probably isn’t right for us but for a team like the Raptors, Grizz, maybe even Portland that duo probably costs you 25-30mm this free agency but has potential to be very disruptive.

Shoutout Chinook for fancying Dipo this off-season.

[The Truth #6]

He sounds like the first piece of a new puzzling era. If he passes Pop's interview, then I suppose I would be excited, but from the outside, it's hard to say with this guy. I don't see him as being a centerpiece for a good team.

[KingKev]

He sounds like the first piece of a new puzzling era. If he passes Pop's interview, then I suppose I would be excited, but from the outside, it's hard to say with this guy. I don't see him as being a centerpiece for a good team.

Agreed but the thing is he doesn’t have to interview for the max elsewhere and Pop probably shouldn’t be interviewing any long term free agent at this point.

I genuinely can’t see him even sniffing PATFO’s radar. Nothing to do with that little quarrel with Monty to end their season or his gaming or other small blah blah blah type stuff.

[XDT76]

Blocks per game 2021

6. Jakob Poeltl 1.8
17. DeAndre Ayton 1.2

0.6 per game for block is significant, that's like 33% difference between them.

[tbdog]

Ayton is a versatile defender. In one on one, hedging, switching, and drop big.

Poeltl is better as a drop big. Oksy at hedging and switching. Below par in one on one post D.

Ayton is also much better on O minus passing. Unsure of screening though. Poeltl is a damn good screener and I haven't watch enough on ayton there

[RC_Drunkford]

0.6 per game for block is significant, that's like 33% difference between them.

that's bascially one block every 2 games, I'll take that for added scoring and better post up D


Is it 2021 already?

Ayton dropped to a piddly 0.7 this last season (a contract season!).

Even in 2021, per 36 minutes, Poeltl registered 2.4 blocks, Ayton registered 1.4.

he's obviously capable of blocking more shots since he did that the years before

[td4mvp2k]

he'll be top target for the spurs come offseason especially if they lose out on the top bigs in this draft

[Mr. Body]

that's bascially one block every 2 games, I'll take that for added scoring and better post up D



he's obviously capable of blocking more shots since he did that the years before

But he didn't. I keep telling you to look at the per 36 numbers.

[TD 21]

Let's get the obligatory :lol Bleacher Report out of the way: 1 Trade for Every Team Not in the 2022 NBA Finals | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2956654-1-trade-for-every-team-not-in-the-2022-nba-finals)

Pending the top 8 playing out how they appear to be, I'd probably do this.

He might be flaky, but he fits with the soft re-build format and they'd be hard pressed to get a better talent in the near future. Plus, they'd retain all the key youth, multiple 1sts in this draft and all picks going forward.

[CGD]

Let's get the obligatory :lol Bleacher Report out of the way: 1 Trade for Every Team Not in the 2022 NBA Finals | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2956654-1-trade-for-every-team-not-in-the-2022-nba-finals)

Pending the top 8 playing out how they appear to be, I'd probably do this.

He might be flaky, but he fits with the soft re-build format and they'd be hard pressed to get a better talent in the near future. Plus, they'd retain all the key youth, multiple 1sts in this draft and all picks going forward.

Clearly written by a Suns fan who wants Grant.

I don’t see a need to make it a 4 way trade, when spurs can deal with Suns directly. I also don’t think the spurs are that interested TBH to give up 9, Jakob, Richardson, and a 2nd while eating Sarics deal too.

[TD 21]

Clearly written by a Suns fan who wants Grant.

I don’t see a need to make it a 4 way trade, when spurs can deal with Suns directly. I also don’t think the spurs are that interested TBH to give up 9, Jakob, Richardson, and a 2nd while eating Sarics deal too.

I'm pretty sure he's a Raptors fanboy.

Yeah, I was more so focused on the Spurs-Suns portion. Given that the 9th pick is likely to be some flawed role player, that's actually not that much to lock in a young, core piece.

[Chinook]

Let's get the obligatory :lol Bleacher Report out of the way: 1 Trade for Every Team Not in the 2022 NBA Finals | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2956654-1-trade-for-every-team-not-in-the-2022-nba-finals)

Pending the top 8 playing out how they appear to be, I'd probably do this.

He might be flaky, but he fits with the soft re-build format and they'd be hard pressed to get a better talent in the near future. Plus, they'd retain all the key youth, multiple 1sts in this draft and all picks going forward.

It's :lol Bleacher Report because the trade is patently illegal. Leaving out that it's bad and misunderstands sign-and-trades in terms of value, it's impossible to do legally. It's gross that a person paid to write about basketball doesn't know that.

You cannot sign-and-trade using picks made during a draft. No, you also can't discuss it beforehand and just execute it afterward. No, you can't have a wink-wink deal to do the trade and pretend like it wasn't discussed. And no, it's not done all the time and would not be allowed.

The Spurs aren't trading 9 in any deal for a player not under contract after the end of the year. It has not legs, and it's not even a rumor worth discussing. The Spurs would be foolish to trade a ton for fucking Ayton when they are the ones paying him a max contract. If this were legal, the Spurs wouldn't be giving Richards, 9 and 38. They'd probably give McDermott, 25 and a future heavily protected pick. The Spurs are not a cap cow for other clubs to make their ends meet. Not for free they aren't.

[TD 21]

It's :lol Bleacher Report because the trade is patently illegal. Leaving out that it's bad and misunderstands sign-and-trades in terms of value, it's impossible to do legally. It's gross that a person paid to write about basketball doesn't know that.

You cannot sign-and-trade using picks made during a draft. No, you also can't discuss it beforehand and just execute it afterward. No, you can't have a wink-wink deal to do the trade and pretend like it wasn't discussed. And no, it's not done all the time and would not be allowed.

The Spurs aren't trading 9 in any deal for a player not under contract after the end of the year. It has not legs, and it's not even a rumor worth discussing. The Spurs would be foolish to trade a ton for fucking Ayton when they are the ones paying him a max contract. If this were legal, the Spurs wouldn't be giving Richards, 9 and 38. They'd probably give McDermott, 25 and a future heavily protected pick. The Spurs are not a cap cow for other clubs to make their ends meet. Not for free they aren't.

Whether you like it or not, it's probably realistic as far as the value they'd need to give up to get him or a player of his caliber.

Not legally of course, but you can absolutely have the parameters in place before hand (seeing if he's interested and who the Suns would be interested in at 9) and even if you're correct on the rest, since the Spurs are likely to end up in the same range next season, they could put protections on the '23 1st so that it conveys if in this range.

The Suns have leverage here too. They're not giving away a valuable player for a pile of crap.

[Chinook]

Whether you like it or not, it's probably realistic as far as the value they'd need to give up to get him or a player of his caliber.

No, the value they need to give up for him (or rather a player of his caliber, since he's not a good target) is cap space. We aren't talking about trading for a guy under contract. The point of having cap space is so you don't trade assets to acquire players. It doesn't help that Ayton is much closer to Poeltl than he is to the big two centers. Poeltl's in the "can win with him" category. He might be the only player on the roster in that category. Trading for a guy who is at best at the top of that category using all of their flexibility is a horrible use of assets.


Not legally of course, but you can absolutely have the parameters in place before hand (seeing if he's interested and who the Suns would be interested in at 9) and even if you're correct on the rest, since the Spurs are likely to end up in the same range next season, they could put protections on the '23 1st so that it conveys if in this range.

No, "having the parameters in place" is the part that's illegal. The trade itself is impossible before the new league year. That wasn't the issue. The issue is the NBA is specifically putting an emphasis on S&Ts that are discussed before the moratorium. That's what the teams are getting dinged for nowadays. It's not even a "just don't be obvious about it" thing anymore. Teams are pushing for the league to clamp down, so there's no getting cute and just pretending like the Spurs just happened to draft the Suns target at 9.

As far as next year's pick goes, if the Spurs are likely to convey lotto pick again, what is the point in trading for Ayton? How good is he if he doesn't improve the Spurs past what the team with Poeltl is already doing?


The Suns have leverage here too. They're not giving away a valuable player for a pile of crap.

The leverage is why they'd get a first and a shooter for him as opposed to nothing. Against some teams, they could definitely push for assets, because those teams need Phoenix to take back contracts or at least agree to trade him. The Spurs don't. The Spurs can max him and force Phoenix to match, and with their salary situation, they can't max a guy they don't want to keep. If they want to keep him, no amount of firsts will change their minds. If the Spurs want Ayton and the Suns don't, Phoenix will need to come correct, because they can't force Ayton to sign with another team like they could trade him wherever in a normal trade.

[TD 21]

No, the value they need to give up for him (or rather a player of his caliber, since he's not a good target) is cap space. We aren't talking about trading for a guy under contract. The point of having cap space is so you don't trade assets to acquire players. It doesn't help that Ayton is much closer to Poeltl than he is to the big two centers. Poeltl's in the "can win with him" category. He might be the only player on the roster in that category. Trading for a guy who is at best at the top of that category using all of their flexibility is a horrible use of assets.



No, "having the parameters in place" is the part that's illegal. The trade itself is impossible before the new league year. That wasn't the issue. The issue is the NBA is specifically putting an emphasis on S&Ts that are discussed before the moratorium. That's what the teams are getting dinged for nowadays. It's not even a "just don't be obvious about it" thing anymore. Teams are pushing for the league to clamp down, so there's no getting cute and just pretending like the Spurs just happened to draft the Suns target at 9.

As far as next year's pick goes, if the Spurs are likely to convey lotto pick again, what is the point in trading for Ayton? How good is he if he doesn't improve the Spurs past what the team with Poeltl is already doing?



The leverage is why they'd get a first and a shooter for him as opposed to nothing. Against some teams, they could definitely push for assets, because those teams need Phoenix to take back contracts or at least agree to trade him. The Spurs don't. The Spurs can max him and force Phoenix to match, and with their salary situation, they can't max a guy they don't want to keep. If they want to keep him, no amount of firsts will change their minds. If the Spurs want Ayton and the Suns don't, Phoenix will need to come correct, because they can't force Ayton to sign with another team like they could trade him wherever in a normal trade.

Wrong. The point of cap space is so you have flexibility and again, a market/organization like this is going to have difficulty signing high end free agents at the best of times. Ayton is better than Poeltl now (way more versatile finisher, defender and defensive rebounder) and 3 years younger. Barring something catastrophic, he'll also have better resale value.

:lmao Tampering goes hand in hand with professional sports. Obviously, you can't leave an electronic trail from the key decision makers, but there's ways around that.

Not many individuals are taking this team from where they stand to the playoffs. The point would be to have a better core piece, one with an All-Star ceiling.

They'd have up to the trade deadline to sort it out though. They're not getting strong armed into throwing a quality asset in the garbage due to this.

[BatManu20]

Where’s he playing next season boys?


1533809022943502344

[BatManu20]

S&T Jakob for Ayton. Who says no.


1533845466529538048

[stephen jackson]

We ain’t doing shit but imagine Levine and ayton wow

[Mr. Body]

We ain’t doing shit but imagine Levine and ayton wow

Okay, I imagined it and wasn't impressed. Now what?

[BatManu20]

Utah’s gotta be the favorites in a S&T for Rudy Gobert imo.

[Leetonidas]

Utah’s gotta be the favorites in a S&T for Rudy Gobert imo.

Sarver doesn't want to pay Ayton 30M a season. I don't think he'd be happy to pay 40M a year for an older Gobert

[SAGirl]

We just have to wait and see if there is mutual interest. Definitely Jakob would need to be traded, which possibly complicates matters, but the team can make things work if there is interest. I am no capologist, not even near, so I'll just wait to see how things shake out.

[KingKev]

S&T Jakob for Ayton. Who says no.


1533845466529538048

Me. There are a couple potential Aytons in this draft alone.

[KingKev]

We ain’t doing shit but imagine Levine and ayton wow

I just imagined 4 years of the play-in, 2 playoff appearances and getting swept 2x.

[duncan2150]

Me. There are a couple potential Aytons in this draft alone.

What ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6nHi5R2F0U

[KingKev]

What ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6nHi5R2F0U

I’m not sure what you are arguing by posting 5yr old footage of his college career.

[Mr. Body]

Mark Williams was better in college than Deandre Ayton

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jalen-duren--mark-williams--deandre-ayton

[duncan2150]

Mark Williams was better in college than Deandre Ayton

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jalen-duren--mark-williams--deandre-ayton

Mr. Body you're smart and we know that they are not the same type of player. Williams is a pure paint guy, Ayton is more polished offensively and is better at pretty everything else except the blocks.

[duncan2150]

I’m not sure what you are arguing by posting 5yr old footage of his college career.

you would not find an Ayton type of player in this draft my friend. Maybe you did not saw him in NCAA.

[Mr. Body]

Mr. Body you're smart and we know that they are not the same type of player. Williams is a pure paint guy, Ayton is more polished offensively and is better at pretty everything else except the blocks.

Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.

[duncan2150]

Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.

defensively ok at protecting the rim but not for the rebounds. Ayton is a good rebounder imo and i could be wrong but i think Phoenix system undervalue him on offense.

For the price im ok with you, i think he is worth less than the max like a lot of guys who'll have that money. But imo he can give you 20-10 every night with good presence on the post.

[KingKev]

defensively ok at protecting the rim but not for the rebounds. Ayton is a good rebounder imo and i could be wrong but i think Phoenix system undervalue him on offense.

For the price im ok with you, i think he is worth less than the max like a lot of guys who'll have that money. But imo he can give you 20-10 every night with good presence on the post.

Or I could get 15 and 10 from Jak for half the price.

[duncan2150]

Or I could get 15 and 10 from Jak for half the price.

you talked about the draft. Yes maybe for Yak , i don't think it will be for half of the price if Poetl have another good season.

[Leetonidas]

Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.

Not that it's a huge sample but he isn't dependent on Paul. His two seasons prior to Paul coming he posted solid numbers (16/10 on 59% and 18/11 on 55%). Only thing that has really gone up with Paul is his FG%. I think he will be fine with Murray setting him up

But I'm also not convinced that paying your C max money when he isn't Jokic/Embiid is not a recipe for success. Just think Ayton is a bit better than you're portraying him

In the two seasons with Paul, Ayton is averaging 11 FGA/game (for context, Walker IV attempts about 10 shots a game). I think he has more room to grow on the offensive side tbh

[Mr. Body]

Not that it's a huge sample but he isn't dependent on Paul. His two seasons prior to Paul coming he posted solid numbers (16/10 on 59% and 18/11 on 55%). Only thing that has really gone up with Paul is his FG%. I think he will be fine with Murray setting him up

But I'm also not convinced that paying your C max money when he isn't Jokic/Embiid is not a recipe for success. Just think Ayton is a bit better than you're portraying him

In the two seasons with Paul, Ayton is averaging 11 FGA/game (for context, Walker IV attempts about 10 shots a game). I think he has more room to grow on the offensive side tbh

I don't really care about scoring from that position. It's cool, but not at a $40 million price tag when it comes with a non-shotblocker and a guy with suspect interest in competing. He's like an incredibly expensive Jahlil Okafor.

[CGD]

Not that it's a huge sample but he isn't dependent on Paul. His two seasons prior to Paul coming he posted solid numbers (16/10 on 59% and 18/11 on 55%). Only thing that has really gone up with Paul is his FG%. I think he will be fine with Murray setting him up

But I'm also not convinced that paying your C max money when he isn't Jokic/Embiid is not a recipe for success. Just think Ayton is a bit better than you're portraying him

In the two seasons with Paul, Ayton is averaging 11 FGA/game (for context, Walker IV attempts about 10 shots a game). I think he has more room to grow on the offensive side tbh

I agree with this. In fact PHX had success when they were able to switch up their normal schemes and dump it to Ayton for him to do his thing down low. The highly disappointing thing is that he wasn't able to do that in the Playoffs and it seems like more of a "between the ears" type of thing than anything else. Thats a huge flag for me.

[SAGirl]

I agree with this. In fact PHX had success when they were able to switch up their normal schemes and dump it to Ayton for him to do his thing down low. The highly disappointing thing is that he wasn't able to do that in the Playoffs and it seems like more of a "between the ears" type of thing than anything else. Thats a huge flag for me.
He did it in the first round a lot when Booker wasnt playing because he was injured. They dont go to him consistently because Booker has to justify his existence in the team and CP3 is ball dominant.

[Leetonidas]

I don't really care about scoring from that position. It's cool, but not at a $40 million price tag when it comes with a non-shotblocker and a guy with suspect interest in competing. He's like an incredibly expensive Jahlil Okafor.

You said his scoring was dependent on Chris Paul. I was merely pointing out that is not really true. Not saying i want him at the price tag either

[Mr. Body]

You said his scoring was dependent on Chris Paul. I was merely pointing out that is not really true. Not saying i want him at the price tag either

I totally follow what you're saying. I'd love a center who can score reliably. I just don't think Ayton's good at what you need him to be good at and his #1 draft pick price regime is awful. I don't think the Suns will miss him at all, if they can get a reasonable package.

[TD 21]

It's all moot anyway since team "character" won't target anyone who isn't a choir boy, :lmao at these Ayton comments. From the pretending all max contracts are created equal, to spouting counting stats without context, to making outrageous comparisons, to pretending he's a product of Paul/Booker and subsequently acting like it's easy to get C's/players of his caliber.

[exstatic]

Utah’s gotta be the favorites in a S&T for Rudy Gobert imo.

Only if Ayton wants to play in Utah. They can't make him.

[exstatic]

Williams is a vastly better defender. It's not even close. I don't even think Ayton's that good offensively -- he's dependent on Mr. Chris Paul. Once Paul leaves, both Ayton and Booker will decline to where they were before he was acquired. Ayton is way too expensive for not giving you what you actually need at the position.

Ayton scored more the year before CP0 got there than in either of the years he was his PG.

[Mr. Body]

Ayton scored more the year before CP0 got there than in either of the years he was his PG.

Cool. Still don't want him.

[John B]

Ayton is a steep price, but he’s 23 and have the tools to be great. If any team can maximize his potentials, the Spurs have a very good chance who historically had two Hofer big men. It’s worth to offer him the max contract. Pair him with an ultra defensive PF like Eason and see how it will click. This is a swing over the fence move if it pans out and get Spurs back in contention.

[exstatic]

Cool. Still don't want him.

I don't particularly want him either, just addressing the trope that he only scores because of CP0.

[Mr. Body]

It's all moot anyway since team "character" won't target anyone who isn't a choir boy, :lmao at these Ayton comments. From the pretending all max contracts are created equal, to spouting counting stats without context, to making outrageous comparisons, to pretending he's a product of Paul/Booker and subsequently acting like it's easy to get C's/players of his caliber.

It's not that Ayton's not a choir boy. By accounts all he does is play video games. It's that he's a quitter who only wants money and doesn't really care about winning or losing.

[TD 21]

It's not that Ayton's not a choir boy. By accounts all he does is play video games. It's that he's a quitter who only wants money and doesn't really care about winning or losing.

I know, but most young players, especially pedigreed ones, are more consumed with money and individual accolades than playing agenda free. Some never change.

Again, if this were a full scale re-build, of course I wouldn't bother. Given the needle they're trying to thread, this is a rare opportunity and they should be looking to pounce.

[Dex]

Only if Ayton wants to play in Utah. They can't make him.

I also think Utah will prioritize Gobert over Mitchell, and the writing seems to be on the wall that one or the other has to go.

Mitchell is apparently "discontent" with Snyder leaving, so he always has his built-in excuse. And even though Gobert is overpaid, his defense is damn near impossible to replace whereas Utah can easily find another high usage scoring guard.

The real question is...if Mitchell leaves, do they also unload Gobert and just blow it up?

[Chinook]

Wrong. The point of cap space is so you have flexibility and again, a market/organization like this is going to have difficulty signing high end free agents at the best of times. Ayton is better than Poeltl now (way more versatile finisher, defender and defensive rebounder) and 3 years younger. Barring something catastrophic, he'll also have better resale value.

You're already assuming the Spurs are going to be able to sign Ayton, so going back to the well of "they're not a free-agent destination" isn't going to fly. Ayton isn't going to have resale value if he's on a bad contract, just like any of the other bigs who signed huge deals assuming they were worth it but weren't did. Massively overpaid centers are basically the worst contracts you can have, because everyone already knows they aren't usually worth it. That's why he's on the block at all. You're talking about the fourth- or fifth-best player on the Suns getting paid like he's the second-best player on a legit playoff team. That's not him.


:lmao Tampering goes hand in hand with professional sports. Obviously, you can't leave an electronic trail from the key decision makers, but there's ways around that.

You keep running into the things I already said assuming they are new arguments. No, you can't do that. You're not going to nudge-nudge/wink-wink your way past such an obvious tampering situation.


Not many individuals are taking this team from where they stand to the playoffs. The point would be to have a better core piece, one with an All-Star ceiling.

Ayton's much closer to a JAG than he is to a core piece. The Spurs will have to go for pieces for sure, but they don't have to chase any high pick like love-sick poodles just to satisfy that urge. They need to opportunistic, not lame and impulsive.


They'd have up to the trade deadline to sort it out though. They're not getting strong armed into throwing a quality asset in the garbage due to this.

Assuming teams have the ability to clear huge cap space for Phoenix during the season is dicey. There will be much less cap space to go around. Add to that that going into the season with a guy you don't want but who has no incentive to play hard probably won't help his trade market. It would be like a worse version of the Collins situation. Also, the Suns matching an offer sheet prevents them from trading Ayton without his consent for a year, and they wouldn't be trade him to offering team for a year at all. So there's no playing games with SA, matching the deal and them unloading Ayton to the Spurs at the deadline. There's also no matching Ayton and then dumping him on Detroit or wherever. You continue to overestimate the leverage Phoenix has if they intend to keep him.

[MultiTroll]

I also think Utah will prioritize Gobert over Mitchell, and the writing seems to be on the wall that one or the other has to go.

Mitchell is apparently "discontent" with Snyder leaving, so he always has his built-in excuse. And even though Gobert is overpaid, his defense is damn near impossible to replace whereas Utah can easily find another high usage scoring guard.

The real question is...if Mitchell leaves, do they also unload Gobert and just blow it up?
FFS should we prepare for a Mitchell for Westbrook Laker Scam?

[TD 21]

You're already assuming the Spurs are going to be able to sign Ayton, so going back to the well of "they're not a free-agent destination" isn't going to fly. Ayton isn't going to have resale value if he's on a bad contract, just like any of the other bigs who signed huge deals assuming they were worth it but weren't did. Massively overpaid centers are basically the worst contracts you can have, because everyone already knows they aren't usually worth it. That's why he's on the block at all. You're talking about the fourth- or fifth-best player on the Suns getting paid like he's the second-best player on a legit playoff team. That's not him.

No, I'm saying they should have a legit chance, which is unusual for players of or above his caliber.

I suspect a number of teams would give Ayton his current max.

He's "on the block" because Sarver is notoriously cheap.

Ayton is clearly their third best player (teams likely favoring Bridges and maybe Johnson because of position is not the same thing) and in the right context he's capable of being the second best player on a legit playoff team.



You keep running into the things I already said assuming they are new arguments. No, you can't do that. You're not going to nudge-nudge/wink-wink your way past such an obvious tampering situation.

You absolutely can and you'd be naive to think teams aren't doing so.



Ayton's much closer to a JAG than he is to a core piece. The Spurs will have to go for pieces for sure, but they don't have to chase any high pick like love-sick poodles just to satisfy that urge. They need to opportunistic, not lame and impulsive.

:lmao He's got a good argument for 6th best C in the league and because he's more versatile, he's arguably better equipped for the playoffs than Gobert. You act like he's Bagley III.


Assuming teams have the ability to clear huge cap space for Phoenix during the season is dicey. There will be much less cap space to go around. Add to that that going into the season with a guy you don't want but who has no incentive to play hard probably won't help his trade market. It would be like a worse version of the Collins situation. Also, the Suns matching an offer sheet prevents them from trading Ayton without his consent for a year, and they wouldn't be trade him to offering team for a year at all. So there's no playing games with SA, matching the deal and them unloading Ayton to the Spurs at the deadline. There's also no matching Ayton and then dumping him on Detroit or wherever. You continue to overestimate the leverage Phoenix has if they intend to keep him.

I said they had time.

I realize that, but it doesn't have to be him.

Maybe, but if you think a young player of this magnitude and pedigree is going to be virtually handed away, you're just as delusional as thinking he's merely some run of the mill rim runner.

[RC_Drunkford]

I agree with this. In fact PHX had success when they were able to switch up their normal schemes and dump it to Ayton for him to do his thing down low. The highly disappointing thing is that he wasn't able to do that in the Playoffs and it seems like more of a "between the ears" type of thing than anything else. Thats a huge flag for me.

That doesn't make no sense. Like it's his fault he didn't have no post ups. They were never looking to dump it to him in the post, which is what they should have done especially in game 7 when they couldn't hit anything

[RC_Drunkford]

I also think Utah will prioritize Gobert over Mitchell, and the writing seems to be on the wall that one or the other has to go.

Mitchell is apparently "discontent" with Snyder leaving, so he always has his built-in excuse. And even though Gobert is overpaid, his defense is damn near impossible to replace whereas Utah can easily find another high usage scoring guard.

The real question is...if Mitchell leaves, do they also unload Gobert and just blow it up?

that would be stupid tbh. The one thing with Gobert is that he gets ran off the floor once teams go small. In that case he's useless cause he can't punish smaller guys in the paint on the other end

[Dex]

that would be stupid tbh. The one thing with Gobert is that he gets ran off the floor once teams go small. In that case he's useless cause he can't punish smaller guys in the paint on the other end

Counterpoint: How far does a team with Mitchell and...some other star go?

If you bring in another guard, they're basically the Blazers 2.0. And the only bigs they could bring in would be like an Ayton or Randle...and I don't see that getting them any further than they have been. Probably worse.

Otherwise...there aren't a whole lot of star wings changing spots right now because they are so highly coveted.

I agree that Gobert can be neutralized by small, shooting lineups...but there are very few players left in the NBA that can single-handedly change a team's defense and he is one of them.

Not saying I'm right or your wrong....just thinking out loud. But I'd be highly surprised if Gobert is not on the Jazz next season.

[Chinook]

No, I'm saying they should have a legit chance, which is unusual for players of or above his caliber.

It's not unusual for the Spurs to have a chance to overpay someone. Their money spends like everyone else. If they have a chance to sign him, they have a chance to sign someone else. This isn't even a Lavine situation with a lot of little connections that might add up. Ayton's just a guy who's an RFA. He's given no indication he wants to go to SA any more than, say, Orlando.


Ayton is clearly their third best player (teams likely favoring Bridges and maybe Johnson because of position is not the same thing) and in the right context he's capable of being the second best player on a legit playoff team.

If small-forward is such a premium that it devalues a center, why are the Spurs trying to trade assets and cap space for a center? They certainly need a SF themselves, and maxing Ayton and trading a top-10 pick for the privilege removes most of their way of acquiring one. They won't be able to draft one, trade for one or sign one with this move. And they already have a center to boot.


You absolutely can and you'd be naive to think teams aren't doing so.

No, you literally can't. That's why this isn't done. I said this in my first post in this discussion:


You cannot sign-and-trade using picks made during a draft. No, you also can't discuss it beforehand and just execute it afterward. No, you can't have a wink-wink deal to do the trade and pretend like it wasn't discussed. And no, it's not done all the time and would not be allowed.

In the three responses we've had so far, you've gone through each subsequent level of my response. No, no, no and no. None of those ways are true. This wouldn't work. It doesn't happen, and it's not the way things are done. Looking at the history of transactions and especially the past two off-seasons show this.


:lmao He's got a good argument for 6th best C in the league and because he's more versatile, he's arguably better equipped for the playoffs than Gobert. You act like he's Bagley III.

If Ayton is only the sixth-best center, why on Earth are we talking about the Spurs maxing him? You're talking about a non-elite guy at a non-premium position, and you're assuming that the Spurs should give him $131M/4 AND trade essentially two lottery picks for him AND give up on signing anyone else with their cap space. For the guy who graded out to be the 88th-most impactful guy last season. Come on, now. Even if he's better than Poeltl (which is debatable), he's not so much better that it wouldn't be in the team's best interest to use their assets and flexibility on other targets while having Poeltl on their roster.


I said they had time.

They don't really have time, because their flexibility shrinks once Ayton is matched. There are a couple of advantages to agreeing to a contract and trading him later (getting around the BYC is a big one), but matching as a leverage tactic isn't one of those. If they match, they're paying the tax bill and potentially damaging their team's chemistry in their last year with Paul.


I realize that, but it doesn't have to be him.

You mean they could trade away someone they want to keep in order to keep a guy they want to dump? Why not just let the guy you want to dump go and not try to squeeze other franchises for no reason? They'd have a much better team if they come correct on a deal in the summer, than hoping a disgruntled Ayton will agree to a deal with a team that has the rare flexibility to get the Suns saving at the deadline.


Maybe, but if you think a young player of this magnitude and pedigree is going to be virtually handed away, you're just as delusional as thinking he's merely some run of the mill rim runner.

You think a first and a useful player along with a TE is nothing. That's pretty good for a team in a S&T. If the Suns want to keep him, they'll keep him. But they aren't going to both be low on him and force teams to bid high on him. This isn't a superstar asking out. This is a free agent who is try to leave. Letting him walk for nothing is very much a risk, and they aren't going to get full value, especially not the value you're ascribing to him.

[TD 21]

It's not unusual for the Spurs to have a chance to overpay someone. Their money spends like everyone else. If they have a chance to sign him, they have a chance to sign someone else.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.


If small-forward is such a premium that it devalues a center, why are the Spurs trying to trade assets and cap space for a center? They certainly need a SF themselves, and maxing Ayton and trading a top-10 pick for the privilege removes most of their way of acquiring one. They won't be able to draft one, trade for one or sign one with this move. And they already have a center to boot.

Again, the Spurs are in a "soft" rebuild where they refuse to tank, are unlikely to have the best odds at the highest picks, aren't attractive to superstars/stars nor do they have the best assets to offer for one, so someone of this caliber and age is right in their wheelhouse.

Between Johnson and Vassell, the Spurs might have their "SF" of the future.



No, you literally can't. That's why this isn't done. I said this in my first post in this discussion:


In the three responses we've had so far, you've gone through each subsequent level of my response. No, no, no and no. None of those ways are true. This wouldn't work. It doesn't happen, and it's not the way things are done. Looking at the history of transactions and especially the past two off-seasons show this.

So you're naive enough to believe tampering has been curtailed because the NBA said it's cracking down. :lmao


If Ayton is only the sixth-best center, why on Earth are we talking about the Spurs maxing him? You're talking about a non-elite guy at a non-premium position, and you're assuming that the Spurs should give him $131M/4 AND trade essentially two lottery picks for him AND give up on signing anyone else with their cap space. For the guy who graded out to be the 88th-most impactful guy last season. Come on, now. Even if he's better than Poeltl (which is debatable), he's not so much better that it wouldn't be in the team's best interest to use their assets and flexibility on other targets while having Poeltl on their roster.

Sixth was a typo. I meant 7th. Anyway, again, within' the context of their situation, are they likely to do as well or better anytime soon? He's also not a finished product. You're also getting too hung up on the exact parameters instead of the premise. I'm not saying get him at all costs, I'm saying he's among the players they should be pursuing.

So now certain advanced stats matter again but when you wanted to pretend DeRozan was better than he was for years, then they didn't.



They don't really have time

You like technicalities, so here's one for you again: They have until the trade deadline to get under the tax and there are myriad ways to do it. Period, end of story.



You think a first and a useful player along with a TE is nothing. That's pretty good for a team in a S&T. If the Suns want to keep him, they'll keep him. But they aren't going to both be low on him and force teams to bid high on him. This isn't a superstar asking out. This is a free agent who is try to leave. Letting him walk for nothing is very much a risk, and they aren't going to get full value, especially not the value you're ascribing to him.

That's not what I said. They may not get full value, but they'll damn sure do better than you seem to think he's worth, the same way the Spurs did DeRozan.

[Chinook]

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Now, you just don't feel like engaging with the point. You can't simultaneously believe Ayton would want to sign with the Spurs and that no one wants to sign with the Spurs.


Again, the Spurs are in a "soft" rebuild where they refuse to tank, are unlikely to have the best odds at the highest picks, aren't attractive to superstars/stars nor do they have the best assets to offer for one, so someone of this caliber and age is right in their wheelhouse.

Even you don't think Ayton is top five at his position. He's not of any "caliber" besides being a high pick.


So you're naive enough to believe tampering has been curtailed because the NBA said it's cracking down. :lmao

The league hasn't said they're cracking down. They have actually started. What you're proposing isn't clever. It's like a wife thinking of cheating on her husband to get pregnant and say it's his, but doing so when he's on a month-long vacation. It doesn't matter how much you "wink-wink". It doesn't matter how "realistic" you are about what really happens or whatever. It doesn't matter if you never tell the truth. It's extremely obvious you did something, and you're going to get caught. You can laugh as much as you want, but it's not the way it works. You didn't understand a simple issue with an article from a shitty source, and now you can't keep defending it.


Anyway, again, within' the context of their situation, are they likely to do as well or better anytime soon?

They don't have to get a better center. That's the least of their problems.


You're also getting too hung up on the exact parameters instead of the premise. I'm not saying get him at all costs, I'm saying he's among the players they should be pursuing.

Your premise is that the should make a huge move just to say they've made a move. We've talked a lot about our desires for the Spurs to be aggressive. I'm not against that idea at all. But Ayton isn't that. Trading Poeltl for 13, throwing a max offer sheet at Ayton and using the pick to move up and grab a guy you think is a star? Maybe. It wouldn't be my first goal, but it would be an interesting way to potentially gather a young core. Would I lock myself out of future improvement, remove almost all my flexibility and risk tampering charges for the "seventh-best" center in the league? No.


So now certain advanced stats matter again but when you wanted to pretend DeRozan was better than he was for years, then they didn't.

There's a difference when we're talking about role-players. Ayton isn't setting the tone from which other guys can thrive. He's one of the guys thriving from players setting the tone. Though to be fair I wouldn't trade this for DeRozan or Lavine either. It's bad asset management.


You like technicalities, so here's one for you again: They have until the trade deadline to get under the tax and there are myriad ways to do it. Period, end of story.

Maybe you think this was a tough way to end the point, but it sound petulant. After they match that offer sheet, they no longer have the choice of whether Ayton is on their team after the deadline next year. It becomes their mutual choice. That's why the clock is basically on them this off-season. They don't want to get into a pissing match with a guy they're trying to move. Ask Philly how much that does for trade value.


That's not what I said. They may not get full value, but they'll damn sure do better than you seem to think he's worth, the same way the Spurs did DeRozan.

The Spurs didn't "get" much of anything for DeRozan. They got paid to take a bunch of expiring contracts. They had leverage because Chicago needed them to agree to a trade and to take the ballast. That ballast was an opportunity cost for the Spurs, who could have used the cap space to sign another player -- like many of us wanted them to do. The Suns might have similar leverage against some teams that are capped out and need to send out neutral or bad salary. They don't have that against the Spurs. The Spurs can just sign him and dare Phoenix to match. If the Suns do, then the Spurs move on either with other free agents or deals to take contracts in exchange for value. Unless Ayton is a high target and they let guys go while waiting, they don't lose anything by waiting it out. The Suns at that point has lost its best chance to get something for Ayton (provided they are trying to trade him). While they can trade him later, it's much more constrained for reasons I've mentioned earlier.

It behooves them to come to a equitable deal with the Spurs to get value and flexibility out of the deal. That's not going to be two lotto picks of value and cap space. That doesn't benefit the Spurs enough to not just give the offer sheet. Unless the Spurs use cap space to sign a Lavine but somehow can still offer enough salary to get Ayton while meeting the BYC conditions AND fitting Phoenix's budget, the Spurs aren't going to get anything from Phoenix worth giving more than some hush money. That's a first and a useful contract, not the ninth pick plus. It's not how S&T transactions work

[rjv]

for me, the litmus test on max players is a simple one: is the player someone that any team in the NBA would pay the max to without hesitation or is that player the missing piece for your team? for me, ayton is neither of these. so i'm not opposed to ayton coming to the spurs but i am opposed to the spurs offering the max to get him.

[TD 21]

Now, you just don't feel like engaging with the point. You can't simultaneously believe Ayton would want to sign with the Spurs and that no one wants to sign with the Spurs.

Again, not what I said. I said it's at least conceivable they could have a chance here (of course I don't know if he'd necessarily want to), which is unusual for a player of or above his caliber.


Even you don't think Ayton is top five at his position. He's not of any "caliber" besides being a high pick.

Uh, the 6 ahead of him are among the top 25ish players in the league. At 23, he's a cut below an All-Star. The likes of Van Vleet, Allen and Murray weren't even on the radar for it a year ago and they all just made it.


The league hasn't said they're cracking down. They have actually started. What you're proposing isn't clever. It's like a wife thinking of cheating on her husband to get pregnant and say it's his, but doing so when he's on a month-long vacation. It doesn't matter how much you "wink-wink". It doesn't matter how "realistic" you are about what really happens or whatever. It doesn't matter if you never tell the truth. It's extremely obvious you did something, and you're going to get caught. You can laugh as much as you want, but it's not the way it works. You didn't understand a simple issue with an article from a shitty source, and now you can't keep defending it.

Whatever man; more technicalities. The bottom line is you seem to believe tampering has been curtailed because of the league cracking down (which was mostly done for PR because they don't want it to be so overt, not because they're naive enough to believe they can actually cut if off at the knees).

I understand just fine. You're just incapable of a discussion where you're not playing smartest guy in the room while condescending.



They don't have to get a better center. That's the least of their problems.

They have to get better players period. Ones that are stars or at least have the potential to be. Ayton has it, Poeltl doesn't.

The advanced stats don't account for the playoffs being about versatility. Ayton can punish switches, catch lobs, is dabbling with shooting 3s and play myriad p-n-r coverages defensively. Poeltl can't do any of those things.



Your premise is that the should make a huge move just to say they've made a move. We've talked a lot about our desires for the Spurs to be aggressive. I'm not against that idea at all. But Ayton isn't that. Trading Poeltl for 13, throwing a max offer sheet at Ayton and using the pick to move up and grab a guy you think is a star? Maybe. It wouldn't be my first goal, but it would be an interesting way to potentially gather a young core. Would I lock myself out of future improvement, remove almost all my flexibility and risk tampering charges for the "seventh-best" center in the league? No.

That's not my premise, that's your narrative.

They'd have plenty of flexibility because it can be derived from having quality assets on market value or team friendly contracts. We just saw that in the White trade.



Maybe you think this was a tough way to end the point, but it sound petulant. After they match that offer sheet, they no longer have the choice of whether Ayton is on their team after the deadline next year. It becomes their mutual choice. That's why the clock is basically on them this off-season. They don't want to get into a pissing match with a guy they're trying to move. Ask Philly how much that does for trade value.

Always got to be adversarial. Again, I realize that and there's different ways to solve it. Maybe Payne or Shamet have bounce back seasons and they dump some combination of one of them, Saric and draft capital, then get to Ayton next off season like the Hawks are supposedly about to Collins.



The Spurs didn't "get" much of anything for DeRozan. They got paid to take a bunch of expiring contracts. They had leverage because Chicago needed them to agree to a trade and to take the ballast. That ballast was an opportunity cost for the Spurs, who could have used the cap space to sign another player -- like many of us wanted them to do. The Suns might have similar leverage against some teams that are capped out and need to send out neutral or bad salary. They don't have that against the Spurs. The Spurs can just sign him and dare Phoenix to match. If the Suns do, then the Spurs move on either with other free agents or deals to take contracts in exchange for value. Unless Ayton is a high target and they let guys go while waiting, they don't lose anything by waiting it out. The Suns at that point has lost its best chance to get something for Ayton (provided they are trying to trade him). While they can trade him later, it's much more constrained for reasons I've mentioned earlier.

It behooves them to come to a equitable deal with the Spurs to get value and flexibility out of the deal. That's not going to be two lotto picks of value and cap space. That doesn't benefit the Spurs enough to not just give the offer sheet. Unless the Spurs use cap space to sign a Lavine but somehow can still offer enough salary to get Ayton while meeting the BYC conditions AND fitting Phoenix's budget, the Spurs aren't going to get anything from Phoenix worth giving more than some hush money. That's a first and a useful contract, not the ninth pick plus. It's not how S&T transactions work.

Again, not what I said. They damn sure did better than most of this board expected.

Still fixated on the specifics. I'm speaking more in general.

[Chinook]

Again, not what I said. I said it's at least conceivable they could have a chance here (of course I don't know if he'd necessarily want to), which is unusual for a player of or above his caliber.

It's not any more conceivable though. There's nothing about Ayton that makes him seem like he'd want to go to the Spurs. If players don't want to sign with SA, Ayton won't either. Or if you can fanfic Ayton's interest, we can fanfic anyone's interest.


Uh, the 6 ahead of him are among the top 25ish players in the league. At 23, he's a cut below an All-Star. The likes of Van Vleet, Allen and Murray weren't even on the radar for it a year ago and they all just made it.

He's at best the third-best center in his conference. He doesn't have a great path to being an All-Star even if he improves. Also, I wouldn't give up a ton if he got voted in the ASG. Despite trying to make it seem like the Spurs should feel blessed for even being mentioned here, they apparently can get All-Stars without selling the farm.


Whatever man; more technicalities. The bottom line is you seem to believe tampering has been curtailed because of the league cracking down (which was mostly done for PR because they don't want it to be so overt, not because they're naive enough to believe they can actually cut if off at the knees).

What you're suggesting is obvious tampering. It's literally only possible because the Spurs tamper. If you and I and dumb-ass Bleacher Report know that, do you think the NBA wouldn't? Moreover, do you think teams like Dallas, Milwaukee, Chicago and Sacramento wouldn't? That you think the owners wouldn't lobby the league to punish the Spurs just because "it happens all the time" when the team would be caught red-handed, I don't know what to tell you. I get that it wasn't something you considered the first time. That's not shade. But it should be really obvious now why it wouldn't work, and defending it now IS worthy of shade.


I understand just fine. You're just incapable of a discussion where you're not playing smartest guy in the room while condescending.

Stop whining. You spent multiple responses calling me naive and putting laughing emojis. It's ridiculously fragile to be complaining about condescension after doing that.


They have to get better players period.

I don't disagree. They can't chase "better players" for the sake of it though. They need a plan of what they want to do and then execute it. That means using their flexibility to the fullest and not burn it all bending over to the Suns. They have cap space and tradeable assets. They need to use those separately to add talent so they can add two players rather than one. Ayton and Murray aren't taking the Spurs anywhere. But the Spurs could end up with Murray, a max free agent, a max trade piece and a top-10 pick as their building blocks. That's SO MUCH better than just having Murray and Ayton. That's why they can't panic. They need a lot of help and need to be smart about how they get it.


They'd have plenty of flexibility because it can be derived from having quality assets on market value or team friendly contracts. We just saw that in the White trade.

No. If the Spurs were over the cap (like they're likely to be every summer after this one or the next at the latest), they won't get the same benefit from a White trade. We aren't talking about them having the 25th pick. We're talking about them having the cap space to not have to give away draft picks getting teams to do sign-and-trades while also having the moveable contracts to execute other deals. This is a very unique position they're in that they aren't likely to have again.

[TD 21]

It's not any more conceivable though. There's nothing about Ayton that makes him seem like he'd want to go to the Spurs. If players don't want to sign with SA, Ayton won't either. Or if you can fanfic Ayton's interest, we can fanfic anyone's interest.

It is because he's an RFA whose team won't let him go, so all the usual suspects are out (glamor markets, contenders and wannabe ones). Many don't even have the assets to spare and/or the need.


He's at best the third-best center in his conference. He doesn't have a great path to being an All-Star even if he improves. Also, I wouldn't give up a ton if he got voted in the ASG. Despite trying to make it seem like the Spurs should feel blessed for even being mentioned here, they apparently can get All-Stars without selling the farm.

Sure, but actually making it is not the point (outside of the perennials it usually comes down to circumstances); playing at that level is.

I fail to see how I'm making it seem how you describe. More narrative.


What you're suggesting is obvious tampering. It's literally only possible because the Spurs tamper. If you and I and dumb-ass Bleacher Report know that, do you think the NBA wouldn't? Moreover, do you think teams like Dallas, Milwaukee, Chicago and Sacramento wouldn't? That you think the owners wouldn't lobby the league to punish the Spurs just because "it happens all the time" when the team would be caught red-handed, I don't know what to tell you. I get that it wasn't something you considered the first time. That's not shade. But it should be really obvious now why it wouldn't work, and defending it now IS worthy of shade.

And? It was something I considered immediately, I just didn't realize you'd be naive enough to know it still and always will go on, it's just being smart about it.

For example, the two teams could have had executives discussing it during the combine over lunch or dinner, etc. somewhere, as well as his representation.


Stop whining. You spent multiple responses calling me naive and putting laughing emojis. It's ridiculously fragile to be complaining about condescension after doing that.

The difference is, I'm doing so in relation to something specific, you do so all the time.



I don't disagree. They can't chase "better players" for the sake of it though. They need a plan of what they want to do and then execute it. That means using their flexibility to the fullest and not burn it all bending over to the Suns. They have cap space and tradeable assets. They need to use those separately to add talent so they can add two players rather than one. Ayton and Murray aren't taking the Spurs anywhere. But the Spurs could end up with Murray, a max free agent, a max trade piece and a top-10 pick as their building blocks. That's SO MUCH better than just having Murray and Ayton. That's why they can't panic. They need a lot of help and need to be smart about how they get it.

You're so consumed with "winning" the debate that you're still caught up in the specifics. I'm way past that. I'm talking about pursuing Ayton period.


No. If the Spurs were over the cap (like they're likely to be every summer after this one or the next at the latest), they won't get the same benefit from a White trade. We aren't talking about them having the 25th pick. We're talking about them having the cap space to not have to give away draft picks getting teams to do sign-and-trades while also having the moveable contracts to execute other deals. This is a very unique position they're in that they aren't likely to have again.

Cap space is the most overrated thing in the NBA. It's only important insofar as you have a means to create it relatively painlessly and they'd have that. They'd also have the caliber of player who's probably the peak of what they'll be able to sign in the near future, only he'll be younger than whoever that'd be.

[duncan2150]

https://twitter.com/Uknowmes1/status/1534510276778680320

Just to see why i think he was underused in Phoenix and with CP3.

[John B]

https://twitter.com/Uknowmes1/status/1534510276778680320

Just to see why i think he was underused in Phoenix and with CP3.

Yup that would get him packing. I don’t watch as much Sun’s basketball, but why would not Monty get him the ball? And with Monty’s good refutation, one has to think it’s something wrong with DA. Was it match-up issue or laziness on the part of DA?

[duncan2150]

Yup that would get him packing. I don’t watch as much Sun’s basketball, but why would not Monty get him the ball? And with Monty’s good refutation, one has to think it’s something wrong with DA. Was it match-up issue or laziness on the part of DA?

Imo there are probably issues with DA behaviour but about pure basketball i think that the Suns just did not trust him so much. They defer too much to Booker wich is understandable but after that they feed him almost like old Paul or Bridges in some games. Even Payne get more touches per minutes.

He was really good without Booker vs the Pelicans for example with nearly 21 pts 10 reb 3 assists 1 block 70% shooting.

[SAGirl]

https://twitter.com/Uknowmes1/status/1534510276778680320

Just to see why i think he was underused in Phoenix and with CP3.
I legit think the Spurs could get so much more out of him … future all star, higher potential than Lamarcus, plus young. He will be worth that deal in the right situation.

[CGD]

I’m getting the sinking feeling spurs are going to go after him.

[Dejounte]

If the GOAT PG isn’t getting him good looks/ getting him enough looks, how is he supposed to get that here again? Aren’t people saying we don’t have a natural passer on our team? And if that’s not it, then do we suddenly have a good coach in Pop (because according to folks, Monty doesn’t know what he’s doing with Ayton)? Which is it?

[KingKev]

Don’t want.

[Chinook]

It is because he's an RFA whose team won't let him go, so all the usual suspects are out (glamor markets, contenders and wannabe ones). Many don't even have the assets to spare and/or the need.

Trading for a guy and signing him are different things. The Spurs have the assets to trade for anyone that ends up on the market. The only difference with Ayton is that he has to agree to go to SA. If contract isn't the issue (because Phoenix will match), then you're requiring him to prefer to sign with the Spurs over other teams offering packages AND the Suns themselves. There's no way to get around the fact that you're suggesting both that Ayton would be open to playing with the Spurs and that free agents wouldn't want to play with the Spurs. If you were talking about overpaying and maxing an offer sheet, it would be different. Then Ayton would be choosing money over location. That's not the case here where you had the Spurs having to pay the Suns to get them not to max him or send him to another place what is willing to max him.


I fail to see how I'm making it seem how you describe. More narrative.

You're making it seem like the Spurs should shoot their wad for Ayton because he has the chance of playing at an All-Star level. They already acquired an All-Star through the draft. Maybe it's not that powerful of an argument to suggest the Spurs need to do whatever they can to get one of those guys and instead focus on adding multiple high-level players through more-efficient means.


And? It was something I considered immediately, I just didn't realize you'd be naive enough to know it still and always will go on, it's just being smart about it.

For example, the two teams could have had executives discussing it during the combine over lunch or dinner, etc. somewhere, as well as his representation.

No. What you're doing is the same as that wife saying, "I'll check into a hotel in another city under a fake name and have my side piece meet me there." The problem isn't people seeing you doing it. It's that the end result (in the example's case, the pregnancy dates not lining up and in our conversation, the Spurs and Suns trading a player drafted in this draft) shows something is wrong. You keep trying to be cute about it, showing little care for how front offices operate. The league isn't the boss of the teams; it's the employee of the teams. Rivals and teams that have been getting dinged for tampering in the past aren't going to let obvious things slide.


The difference is, I'm doing so in relation to something specific, you do so all the time.

I guess if you think you're ALWAYS doing so in relation to specific things, even when talking to other people, you have a point. Sounds more like you have zero self-awareness.


You're so consumed with "winning" the debate that you're still caught up in the specifics. I'm way past that. I'm talking about pursuing Ayton period.

How the team pursues players matters. It's very much an order-of-operations situation for them. Ayton can be more or less "worth it" depending on where he fits in that timeline. If the Spurs address their pressing needs through other means and have the cap space to toss a max offer sheet at Ayton, he may well be worth it. If the team has to choose between him and similar guys at other positions, it's a pretty easy pass. Poeltl is good enough, so if you're going to use flexibility and assets to make that exchange, you need to make sure it's the finishing piece.


Cap space is the most overrated thing in the NBA. It's only important insofar as you have a means to create it relatively painlessly and they'd have that. They'd also have the caliber of player who's probably the peak of what they'll be able to sign in the near future, only he'll be younger than whoever that'd be.

We agree that the NBA is a trading league rather than a signing league. This is because the teams are mostly over the cap all the team, though, not because cap space isn't valuable. The Spurs leveraged that cap space into two firsts and multiple seconds last year. Most teams are more than a contract dumping away from meaningful space. Trading White was basically salary-neutral for this summer, and the Spurs will likely to be either over the cap in 2023-2024 or near it. Creating real cap space "when you need it" requires other teams to have space or TE's, and those aren't cheap. The Spurs basically have two more firsts to trade due to having space. Those firsts may be player they use or assets they move, but they have them because they weren't full on contracts.

The question with Ayton isn't how old he is. He'd be signed for four years, and only those years matter. If the Spurs were going to sign a guy who was 30 for the same length of time, that's just as fine, if not better. Hell, if that other player plays at a different position, it's not even a discussion. Ayton would very possibly be a worse deal than Gobert, who's a dicey contract despite being actualized into a high-impact player and not mostly just smoke like Ayton.

[BatManu20]

1535306045014171648

[John B]

It would be crazy not to get a crack at Ayton. He’s 23 and has tons of ceiling left. The kid barely started his career! Plus Spurs have had successes with 2 big men. If Spurs get lucky to have him, maybe draft Davis and Sochan/Eason however they pull it off. It will be a totally different young Spurs and should be contending for years. This is a no brainer.

I swear if summer league starts and none of these happen. Instead we draft Dieng at 9, Caleb and sign a has been vet, I’d go crazy :lol:lol

[TD 21]

There's no way to get around the fact that you're suggesting both that Ayton would be open to playing with the Spurs and that free agents wouldn't want to play with the Spurs.

As I've said, I believe he's about the apex of the caliber of player they could convince to sign here.



You're making it seem like the Spurs should shoot their wad for Ayton because he has the chance of playing at an All-Star level. They already acquired an All-Star through the draft. Maybe it's not that powerful of an argument to suggest the Spurs need to do whatever they can to get one of those guys and instead focus on adding multiple high-level players through more-efficient means.

I don't view it like that. Like I said, no matter the iteration of the trade, they'd still have all core youth, multiple 1sts in this draft, all picks going forward and only one bad contract (McDermott).



It's that the end result (in the example's case, the pregnancy dates not lining up and in our conversation, the Spurs and Suns trading a player drafted in this draft) shows something is wrong. You keep trying to be cute about it, showing little care for how front offices operate. The league isn't the boss of the teams; it's the employee of the teams. Rivals and teams that have been getting dinged for tampering in the past aren't going to let obvious things slide.

So, to be clear, you believe tampering has been curtailed?

By the way, trading a drafted player doesn't show anything and isn't unprecedented.


I guess if you think you're ALWAYS doing so in relation to specific things, even when talking to other people, you have a point. Sounds more like you have zero self-awareness.

That's an exaggeration and I know exactly how the usual suspects (including you) view me.

The difference is, I like to push people's buttons, you just have a constant axe to grind/chip on your shoulder (Napoleon complex?). Look back to the start of this for reference.



How the team pursues players matters. It's very much an order-of-operations situation for them. Ayton can be more or less "worth it" depending on where he fits in that timeline. If the Spurs address their pressing needs through other means and have the cap space to toss a max offer sheet at Ayton, he may well be worth it. If the team has to choose between him and similar guys at other positions, it's a pretty easy pass. Poeltl is good enough, so if you're going to use flexibility and assets to make that exchange, you need to make sure it's the finishing piece.

Again, I don't view it like that. I see it as follows: They've built up enough assets to where they can afford to expend some if they're adding a young core player. Of course, I'd rather that player be a big wing, but if that's not possible (without drastically overpaying), it shouldn't stop them from being aggressive.

I also don't can't about timing because you don't get to choose when impact players become available and attainable to your specific situation. When they're "ready" they might not have an opportunity like this.


We agree that the NBA is a trading league rather than a signing league. This is because the teams are mostly over the cap all the team, though, not because cap space isn't valuable. Trading White was basically salary-neutral for this summer, and the Spurs will likely to be either over the cap in 2023-2024 or near it.

The question with Ayton isn't how old he is. He'd be signed for four years, and only those years matter. If the Spurs were going to sign a guy who was 30 for the same length of time, that's just as fine, if not better. Hell, if that other player plays at a different position, it's not even a discussion. Ayton would very possibly be a worse deal than Gobert, who's a dicey contract despite being actualized into a high-impact player and not mostly just smoke like Ayton.

I didn't say it wasn't valuable, I said it was overrated especially for an organization like this that isn't going to do a full scale re-build. Trading White shed long term salary, whether it opened up future cap space or not it got them markedly closer.

You're making the classic mistake that most of this board does. This organization's goal isn't to have the best long term odds of building a championship contender. If they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I wouldn't propose the majority of trades I do.

[duncan2150]

If the GOAT PG isn’t getting him good looks/ getting him enough looks, how is he supposed to get that here again? Aren’t people saying we don’t have a natural passer on our team? And if that’s not it, then do we suddenly have a good coach in Pop (because according to folks, Monty doesn’t know what he’s doing with Ayton)? Which is it?

I think you mix things up, you can have touches without a good passer... Ayton will shot more in a team like Detroit for example.

The suns just use him like a 3rd/4th option and i think they're wrong. It's just simple as that, no need to talk about PG, Monty , Pop or something else imo.

[tbdog]

Ayton on a rookie Max is fine. Trading for him to give him the max isn't.

The rules are this. If you offer ayton the max and he signs it, there isn't any compensation talks. Sun's either match or let him walk. So you have to agree on a sign and trade prior.

[John B]

Ayton on a rookie Max is fine. Trading for him to give him the max isn't.

The rules are this. If you offer ayton the max and he signs it, there isn't any compensation talks. Sun's either match or let him walk. So you have to agree on a sign and trade prior.

If you want him, you have to pay. The Suns are not going to just let him walk for nothing.

[ducks]

If you want him, you have to pay. The Suns are not going to just let him walk for nothing.

Robert is stupid

[ducks]

Yup that would get him packing. I don’t watch as much Sun’s basketball, but why would not Monty get him the ball? And with Monty’s good refutation, one has to think it’s something wrong with DA. Was it match-up issue or laziness on the part of DA?
Robert was cheap did not want to pay him max trying to keep his numbers down

[John B]

Robert was cheap did not want to pay him max trying to keep his numbers down

If he’s not enough touches and even bench him on a game 7, then he must have a reason not to give Ayton the max

But again that’s the Suns, and we’re the Spurs who’s trying to get back. And I believe Ayton is worth the risk.

[kht]

Easy pass on a guy with a Semanic motor. Monty Williams is a Spurs guy and he couldn't play for him. I'd rather trade Poetl to Charlotte for their package and use the picks to get Duren or Mark Williams.

[mo7888]

Ayton was the wrong pick at #1 in his draft... I can't see any reason anyone would want to pay him the max (even the rookie max) now.

[baseline bum]

Me. There are a couple potential Aytons in this draft alone.

Doubt it. If you redrafted 2018 only guys who's get taken ahead of him are Doncic and Young.

[BatManu20]

1536385500621049857

[slick'81]

1536385500621049857

i doubt any big fa is coming to sa this season anyway

[BatManu20]

John Collins for Deandre Ayton. Who says no.

1536397564316200962

[mo7888]

John Collins for Deandre Ayton. Who says no.

1536397564316200962

Atlanta

[CGD]

John Collins for Deandre Ayton. Who says no.

1536397564316200962

That’s all you ATL!

They also have that Gallo partial expiring which should entice PHX. They’ll probably also get them to eat dead money like Saric. Something like:

PHX: Collins + Gallo + future pick
ATL: Ayton + Shatmat + Saric

[TD 21]

^ Obviously the Suns would have to get Capela back in a Ayton sign and trade to the Hawks scenario.

[Degoat]

A suns/hawks trade is such a lateral move for both teams Imo lol

[CGD]

^ Obviously the Suns would have to get Capela back in a Ayton sign and trade to the Hawks scenario.

I don’t know, I thought the whole point was that Sarver didn’t want to ADD to the balance sheet. Suppose they could do a deal around Capella (who is expiring btw), but Suns would obviously need more.

Also, I thought they had their center of the future with none other than Gold medalist Javale Magee??

[TD 21]

I don’t know, I thought the whole point was that Sarver didn’t want to ADD to the balance sheet. Suppose they could do a deal around Capella (who is expiring btw), but Suns would obviously need more.

Also, I thought they had their center of the future with none other than Gold medalist Javale Magee??

Uh, Collins is more expensive than Capela. Sure, they'd need more, but he'd have to be the centerpiece.

Not sure if serious, but if so, McGee is a 34 year old backup.

[ducks]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nba-raptors-deandre-ayton-linked-potential-suitor-suns-center-225931208.html

5 teams mentioned spurs one of them

[CGD]

Uh, Collins is more expensive than Capela. Sure, they'd need more, but he'd have to be the centerpiece.

Not sure if serious, but if so, McGee is a 34 year old backup.

Absolutely kidding about Magee.

My point is theyd have to expand the deal so that Suns can realize some of the cost savings they want. So if they're not getting that partially guaranteed Gallo deal (but instead Collins AND Capella), they probably want the receiving team to eat Saric and/or Shatmat.

[TD 21]

Absolutely kidding about Magee.

My point is theyd have to expand the deal so that Suns can realize some of the cost savings they want. So if they're not getting that partially guaranteed Gallo deal (but instead Collins AND Capella), they probably want the receiving team to eat Saric and/or Shatmat.

Fair enough, but if it comes to fruition, the Suns won't be getting Collins with Capela.

[John B]

A suns/hawks trade is such a lateral move for both teams Imo lol

If the corpse of CP0 could still play, he’d do wonders with Collins as lob receiver. CP0 and Griffin 2.0

[CGD]

^ yeah, i think the most recent rumor about Gorbert is such a better fit for ATL anyway.

[CGD]

Let’s assume the spurs want Ayton as their main FA target. Is there a CBA rule that prevents them from extending a max offer while they try to negotiate a sign and trade with Suns?

Idea would be to put pressure on the Suns to deal or match?

[KobesAchilles]

Ayton complained about touches playing with CP3 who actually passes the ball, imagine him with Young.

Ayton: I was wide open for a dunk, why did you take a 38 foot 3pointer instead of passing me the ball?
Young: I thought you were getting in position for the offensive rebound

[KingKev]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10039380-nba-rumors-suns-interested-in-trading-vet-for-no-8-pick-to-create-ayton-cap-space

Suns looking to clear cap to pay Ayton. @exststic called this big time although in this article not sure how they can clear cap and grab #8 from NO without using Bridges.

[SAGirl]

A lot of speculation there, but its just as well. ^ Maybe trading Bridges is it, bc they figure with the 8th pick they can select a suitable replacement. There are a few defensive wings that could be had.

[CGD]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10039380-nba-rumors-suns-interested-in-trading-vet-for-no-8-pick-to-create-ayton-cap-space

Suns looking to clear cap to pay Ayton. @exststic called this big time although in this article not sure how they can clear cap and grab #8 from NO without using Bridges.

Hmm. My understanding is that they don’t NEED to open up capspace to sign Ayton since they possess the mechanism to go over the cap to extend him regardless. I read this more to mean the Suns dont want to pay Cameron next year are are looking to sell high now.

[KingKev]

Hmm. My understanding is that they don’t NEED to open up capspace to sign Ayton since they possess the mechanism to go over the cap to extend him regardless. I read this more to mean the Suns dont want to pay Cameron next year are are looking to sell high now.

Yeah they can easily pay Ayton without clearing cap space. What I was getting at is Sarver looks to be penny pinching again, thinking they can move a few shitty contracts to both save money and get #8 in the mix which is laughable.

[DPG21920]

I know this will get a lot of eye rolls (and I agree it should) but I’ve casually heard that SA is not going to aggressively pursue Ayton. timvp care to comment on anything you’ve heard regarding this?

[SAGirl]

I mean why pursue Ayton if you are drafting Duren? ^

[Mr. Body]

I know this will get a lot of eye rolls (and I agree it should) but I’ve casually heard that SA is not going to aggressively pursue Ayton. timvp care to comment on anything you’ve heard regarding this?

Why would anyone think the Spurs were aggressively pursuing Ayton?

[DPG21920]

I mean why pursue Ayton if you are drafting Duren? ^

Agree - but don’t think it has to do with that. Duren isn’t good enough to pass on Ayton if you think Ayton is worth paying that max anyways.

It’s more of they don’t seem to have interest in doing so at the moment (not sure why, I think Ayton is worth it). But it’s just a rumor about SA current mindset - not sure if true. Just heard that with all the Ayton being linked to SA stuff is a bit overblown and SA at the moment isn’t planning on some all out pursuit.

[RiverwalkParade]

Sounds like a smoke screen to me. Why so specific on getting the 8? Maybe they want Duren and are trying to jump us.

[DPG21920]

Why would anyone think the Spurs were aggressively pursuing Ayton?

Lowe and others like that have been linking SA to Ayton a ton…picking up steam on the podcasts etc

[KingKev]

Sounds like a smoke screen to me. Why so specific on getting the 8? Maybe they want Duren and are trying to jump us.

More so that NO might be looking to move 8.

[Mr. Body]

Lowe and others like that have been linking SA to Ayton a ton…picking up steam on the podcasts etc

And Disney+ creates shitty content to keep people subscribed.

[SAGirl]

Lowe and others like that have been linking SA to Ayton a ton…picking up steam on the podcasts etc
Frankly I didn't know this. I was interested in Ayton but didn't know this speculation was going around. It could have just been someone looking at who has cap and would seem interested in trying to pry him away, and it wasn't based on any real knowledge... Nothing different than you and I speculating about it.

I had my doubts on it happening bc even though Chinook and others made so much noise about just being able to max him and place the Suns in a pickle, the Suns could just match and things are usually a lot more complicated than that including whether the player wants to leave and is in an irreparable rift with current team or not. It reminds me of Collins last year leveraging interest to get a sum he wanted from Atlanta.

I think it's possible Ayton really wanted to leave bc the end looked ugly for that team and he seems disgruntled but if the Suns are appeasing him and bending over, I don't think the Spurs would waste their time there.

Pivot to Duren and move on.

[CGD]

^ interesting info

I think the lynchpin of all this what the Spurs think about DJM, who I understand is extension eligible now.

If they're not prepared to max him, then it's a strong sign they're entering the next rebuild phase and Pop is likely out the door after next season. In that world (a) it doesn't make sense to go for Ayton, OG, or any other player on DJ's "timeline"; (b) it makes sense to extend and trade Jak and possibly Keldon this year; and (c) it makes sense to draft younger players like Duren, Deing, etc.

The opposite is also true. If they intend to pay DJM, then it makes sense to surround him around more established players this offseason that are on his "timeline," and hope for leaps from players like Vassell or Keldon. I'm not partial to Ayton, but you can see how some within the org would be. Then you draft a more mature player like Johnny Davis at 9, and look for specialists in the 20s.

[DPG21920]

And Disney+ creates shitty content to keep people subscribed.

Sure. But that’s what’s going around those circles. Is what it is and we will see. I would love for SA to trade Jakob for a lottery pick and pay Ayton personally

[CGD]

FYI, i thought this was a helpful primer describing the complicated salary matching rules that would impact any Ayton trade: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/12/11-players-affected-by-poison-pill-provision-in-2021-22.html

[KingKev]

^ interesting info

I think the lynchpin of all this what the Spurs think about DJM, who I understand is extension eligible now.

If they're not prepared to max him, then it's a strong sign they're entering the next rebuild phase and Pop is likely out the door after next season. In that world (a) it doesn't make sense to go for Ayton, OG, or any other player on DJ's "timeline"; (b) it makes sense to extend and trade Jak and possibly Keldon this year; and (c) it makes sense to draft younger players like Duren, Deing, etc.

The opposite is also true. If they intend to pay DJM, then it makes sense to surround him around more established players this offseason that are on his "timeline," and hope for leaps from players like Vassell or Keldon. I'm not partial to Ayton, but you can see how some within the org would be. Then you draft a more mature player like Johnny Davis at 9, and look for specialists in the 20s.

DJM is extension eligible come October 2022 for an additional 3yrs 68.8mm. He is worth more than that so wil be hitting free agency regardless.

[SAGirl]

DJM is extension eligible come October 2022 for an additional 3yrs 68.8mm. He is worth more than that so wil be hitting free agency regardless.
Thanks for this clarification... cap rules are really confusing.

Him and Jakob are kind of in a similar situation then. Both up for raises, both set to hit UFA. Jakob next summer, DJM in another year. Places the Spurs in a pickle with regards to making win now moves vs. not.

[lefty]

And Disney+ creates shitty content to keep people subscribed.

DS2 is on D+ as of today I’m gonna rewatch that shit tbh

[SAGirl]

FYI, i thought this was a helpful primer describing the complicated salary matching rules that would impact any Ayton trade: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2021/12/11-players-affected-by-poison-pill-provision-in-2021-22.html
Yea it is quite difficult to trade Bridges as it is. Thanks for sharing.
--------------
Still, going back to DPG, Ayton could just be posturing to get the max he wants from the Suns. It's similar to John Collins last summer.

[CGD]

Yea it is quite difficult to trade Bridges as it is. Thanks for sharing.
--------------
Still, going back to DPG, Ayton could just be posturing to get the max he wants from the Suns. It's similar to John Collins last summer.


To clarify, I shared not bc of Bridges but the example of his situation, which shows the difference between incoming and outgoing salaries when a rookie extension player is signed and traded.

Basically, as I understand it, in a Ayton trade the Spurs’ incoming salary hit would be the max amount, but PHX would only be able to receive something like half that in salary. Spurs should be able to construct a trade easy enough, but other non-capspace suitors like the Hawks would have a much harder time.

[CGD]

This now becomes the threshold question entering free agency -- to Ayton or not to Ayton?

If not, then I see a lot of cap space renting ahead this summer. Don't see the value in going after an OG honestly, and CHA is keeping Bridges. Jollins remains underwhelming to me.

[Mr. Body]

This now becomes the threshold question entering free agency -- to Ayton or not to Ayton?

If not, then I see a lot of cap space renting ahead this summer. Don't see the value in going after an OG honestly, and CHA is keeping Bridges. Jollins remains underwhelming to me.

Definitely not.

Ayton doesn't solve any issues. He's not an outside shooter. He's an okay rebounder. He's not a shotblocker. We don't need interior scoring.

That cap space is better used to absorb contracts, whether for useful short term veterans or more likely to gain draft assets in the future.

[CGD]

Definitely not.

Ayton doesn't solve any issues. He's not an outside shooter. He's an okay rebounder. He's not a shotblocker. We don't need interior scoring.

That cap space is better used to absorb contracts, whether for useful short term veterans or more likely to gain draft assets in the future.

I dont disagree.

I'm just saying the team needs to make a calculation/assessment on Ayton, which will then plot the rest of offseason. If they come to your conclusion (i tend to agree btw), renting space makes sense and my first call is to the Knicks. But you can see how the Spurs may, in fact, see Ayton as an important piece of the equation.

[kobyz]

I think s&t Ayton for Murray and Jacob make it done