Dejounte Left Off of All-NBA Defensive Teams

[BatManu20]

Shocker. League-leader in Steals and Steals Per Game is robbed.


1527804235605221378

[Degoat]

What a joke!

[BatManu20]

1527805215847723011

[MannyIsGod]

JJ Jr first team is a joke. Dude can't stop fouling out. They put all of one guard on the first team.

[Trill Clinton]

smh

[Barfunk]

B.S.

[lmbebo]

what a joke

[TDMVPDPOY]

then u have the aussie chump giddey who didnt make all rookie team who won plenty of rookie of the month awards...lol

anyway popularity contest

[Dverde]

Who are these 17 people who picked Van Fleet over Murray????

[Barfunk]

Media trying to let Murray know he won't get accolades in SA

[tonight...you]

This is what happens when awards are given by votes from the media.

[Barfunk]

Kobe Bryant making the All Defensive First team 9 times vs. Tim Duncan making it 8 tells you all you need to know. Tim Duncan had 20 rebounds and 10 blocks in Finals closeout game for fk sake. Again, just making a point about the bias. Probably big reason why Kwahi weaseled his way outta here.

[SAGirl]

The players selected are key for top teams with elite ratings. The Spurs were 16th as a team, so that’s slightly worse than average. Basically Murray and Jakob weren’t enough to make the Spurs a better than average team on D. He’s also getting lit up by elite talents and is not a defensive stopper that you stick on the teams best player which is how some defensive wings started to get renown.

[John B]

Even VanFleet got more votes than DJ :lol

[John B]

No MIP, no All-Defensive, no max :downspin:. Will see a beast mode from DJ next season :lol

[John B]

Is DJ at the gym yet? :lol

As Spurs fan, you’d love Spurs players to get some love out there. But personally, this is just adding more to this kid’s belly. I think Spurs fans will see another big leap from DJ this coming season. Bulk up a little more to absorb contacts around the rim. This kid is going to be even hungrier :lol

Maybe these snubs is a blessing in disguise for us fans, for DJ not to settle for relatively small achievements. It’s time to hit the weights some more. Get even more better. Let’s go DJ! :lol

[offset formation]

^^^

And I wonder if these cumulative disses will eventually force Murray to request a trade or sign elsewhere on his next contract so he gets a bit more recognition.

[John B]

^^^

And I wonder if these cumulative disses will eventually force Murray to request a trade or sign elsewhere on his next contract so he gets a bit more recognition.

I was cruising I-35 back there, until I hit a big rig with no tail lights :lol

[SPURt]

Good. I hope DJM takes it hard and gets better still.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Maybe everyone who voted watches Murray get lit up by Memphis and Ja.

[Texas_Ranger]

^^^

And I wonder if these cumulative disses will eventually force Murray to request a trade or sign elsewhere on his next contract so he gets a bit more recognition.

ohhh nooo, how will we ever recover without Dejounte Murray.

[KobesAchilles]

I mean Duncan never won a DPOY award despite only 3 times is his entire career being outside the top 5 in team defense. Somehow Dwight won it 4 times.

I always thought you had to have 2 guards per team. I guess not. And it’s embarrassing to see Gobert make 1st team every year just for him to be unplayable in the post season. I know post season lack of success has zero to do with this award but like how does he keep making this team and then just shits the bed every year in the POs.

DJ is deserving of this award. More so than Holiday. But nobody watches the Spurs so I don’t expect him to get any recognition. It’s on the franchise to make our team watchable to the media again.

[offset formation]

ohhh nooo, how will we ever recover without Dejounte Murray.

Not saying you can't, either via platoon or by getting fortunate in the draft, but to brush it off as though losing a guy that averaged close to 22/8/8 and was a borderline all-defensive player, that seems short-sighted.

[Texas_Ranger]

Not saying you can't, either via platoon or by getting fortunate in the draft, but to brush it off as though losing a guy that averaged close to 22/8/8 and was a borderline all-defensive player, that seems short-sighted.

Westbroook was averaging a triple double for 3 or 4 seasons and lead a shit Oklahoma team to the playoffs and i still think he is and always was a cancer... Murray is a good player, but if we ever wanna be serious team, he would need to be a third option. Thats why i hate that we did not tank as we should. Fucking Warriors tanked twice in the mean time. The spurs are just a team that has no idea what they are or wanna be.

[R. DeMurre]

I mean Duncan never won a DPOY award despite only 3 times is his entire career being outside the top 5 in team defense. Somehow Dwight won it 4 times.

I always thought you had to have 2 guards per team. I guess not. And it’s embarrassing to see Gobert make 1st team every year just for him to be unplayable in the post season. I know post season lack of success has zero to do with this award but like how does he keep making this team and then just shits the bed every year in the POs.

DJ is deserving of this award. More so than Holiday. But nobody watches the Spurs so I don’t expect him to get any recognition. It’s on the franchise to make our team watchable to the media again.


Definitely a sign of the pre-analytics times... Timmy led the NBA in defensive win shares 5x and in defensive rating 4x. If impact stats had been more advanced at the time, he most likely would've won multiple DPOYs.

[wildbill2u]

Didn't Murray make the defensive team during his rookie season? I guess the voters think he has diminished his abilities since then, eh?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not sure his abilities have diminished but the more he takes on the offensive end the less energy he'll have to be a lock up defender. Not that he ever was that, but yeah, point stands.

[offset formation]

Westbroook was averaging a triple double for 3 or 4 seasons and lead a shit Oklahoma team to the playoffs and i still think he is and always was a cancer... Murray is a good player, but if we ever wanna be serious team, he would need to be a third option. Thats why i hate that we did not tank as we should. Fucking Warriors tanked twice in the mean time. The spurs are just a team that has no idea what they are or wanna be.

Totally agree on the tank. That late season surge especially after we traded away White. At that point, Cacock should have been your bench PF at minimum. Collins and Landale should have gotten heavy minutes. Etc

[couchman]

I thought DJM's defense took a small step back this last season.
He was essentially a break-even player defensively last year on RAPTOR.
Which is great for someone who was so good on offense.
Like others have said, he was expending more energy on offense.
He wasn't exactly a stopper.

[MannyIsGod]

Uhhh, the Warriors tanked twice? When was the 2nd time? And the first time was driven due to injuries, not a decision to tank.

The Spurs traded away their key players (or let them walk) this past offseason but the young core they have was too good to tank. You guys want them to not develop players which is fucking ridiculous. And besides, the tank shit is overrated. Out of the 15 players on All NBA teams last year, 6 were picked AFTER the 9th pick. Another 3 were picked after the 6 pick! Only 6 of 15 were picked in the top 5.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Our overall team defense wasn’t the greatest and we didn’t have a winning record so I’m not surprised

[RC_Drunkford]

Didn't Murray make the defensive team during his rookie season? I guess the voters think he has diminished his abilities since then, eh?

because we had one of the best defensive teams of the NBA and they had to pick somebody. DJ at the time had games with 5 and 7 steals to close out the season.

[daslicer]

Uhhh, the Warriors tanked twice? When was the 2nd time? And the first time was driven due to injuries, not a decision to tank.

The Spurs traded away their key players (or let them walk) this past offseason but the young core they have was too good to tank. You guys want them to not develop players which is fucking ridiculous. And besides, the tank shit is overrated. Out of the 15 players on All NBA teams last year, 6 were picked AFTER the 9th pick. Another 3 were picked after the 6 pick! Only 6 of 15 were picked in the top 5.

All the remaining teams left except for Miami have guys who were top 10 in the lottery as key pieces of the their teams. The Warriors have it with Curry, The Celtics have it with Tatum and Brown, The Mavs have it with Doncic.

[SAGirl]

^^^

And I wonder if these cumulative disses will eventually force Murray to request a trade or sign elsewhere on his next contract so he gets a bit more recognition.
I think he’ll be tired of the Spurs eventually if they dont make any moves to improve relying solely on the draft. In that case they’ll get yet a few more teenagers that need 2-3 years just to see if they can help win games.

Its similar to Lavine telling Chicago to build a team around him bc he wasnt going to sign back with a perennial lottery team that kept cycling through draftees that didnt amount to anything. Playing in a good team is not just fun, it matters for career recognition and brand. Besides all Dejounte talked about when asked about the triple doubles and individual accolades was how much he wanted the team to win and that being the most important thing on his mind.

[SAGirl]

because we had one of the best defensive teams of the NBA and they had to pick somebody. DJ at the time had games with 5 and 7 steals to close out the season.
True and I think on top if that, the fall-off when he went to the bench (the ghost of Tony Parker on one leg) was huge. He was at that point very significant in that sense.

[Chinook]

Yeah, Green's one of the best defensive guards of his era, Anderson has proven to be a great defender, and LMA probably turned in his best season. I was not happy with the selection at the time, and I think history has born that out. The voters confused a beneficiary of an elite defensive system with its enabler. As I've said, it's unfortunate in that Murray does certain things very well. He just hasn't reached and probably won't reach the level on either end of the court. I hope this does motivate him to come out next year and kick ass. But I wouldn't say he's a rage boost away from making the All-D team next year.

[MannyIsGod]

All the remaining teams left except for Miami have guys who were top 10 in the lottery as key pieces of the their teams. The Warriors have it with Curry, The Celtics have it with Tatum and Brown, The Mavs have it with Doncic.

Ok, but you just said the Heat didn't. And Curry was a 7th pick, hardly different than the 9th pick of the Spurs. And those Boston picks? Not from tanking, from trading with Brooklyn. They simply got incredibly lucky. Even the Mavs got super lucky by having 3 other teams pass on Luka. So if your argument is that you have to tank, your examples don't even prove that.

People here severely overrate tanking. Even if the Spurs were some kind of treadmill team, after a few years at their current position, they'd end up with a top 4 pick about 50% of the time.

[KingKev]

Murray had a solid season but I’m not sure he deserved it. He was tasked with alot of responsibility this season and I think his on ball D suffered at times.

[daslicer]

Ok, but you just said the Heat didn't. And Curry was a 7th pick, hardly different than the 9th pick of the Spurs. And those Boston picks? Not from tanking, from trading with Brooklyn. They simply got incredibly lucky. Even the Mavs got super lucky by having 3 other teams pass on Luka. So if your argument is that you have to tank, your examples don't even prove that.

People here severely overrate tanking. Even if the Spurs were some kind of treadmill team, after a few years at their current position, they'd end up with a top 4 pick about 50% of the time.

The Heat are the needle in the haystack with their success. That type of success is very rare. Whether these teams got lucky in the Mavs with Doncic or the Warriors with Curry it still proves my point you have to have a top 10 pick usually to get a star in this league. In the last 30 years only, the Raptors won a title along with the Bucks with having a star player who wasn't a top 10 pick. Tanking unfortunately does work more often then not. The only other option to acquire top picks is through trade like you mentioned.

[MannyIsGod]

The Heat are the needle in the haystack with their success. That type of success is very rare. Whether these teams got lucky in the Mavs with Doncic or the Warriors with Curry it still proves my point you have to have a top 10 pick usually to get a star in this league. In the last 30 years only, the Raptors won a title along with the Bucks with having a star player who wasn't a top 10 pick. Tanking unfortunately does work more often then not. The only other option to acquire top picks is through trade like you mentioned.

Except the fact that 6 out of 15 all NBA slots from last year shows its not a needle in a haystack, is it. Its the exact opposite. You don't need a top 10 player to get a star in this league.

God damn I show you X and you still think that it has to be Y even when you yourself are giving examples of how its not. 1/4 is not needle in a haystack. How about the Bucks? Nothing higher than a 15th pick in their big 3. Shit is so much a needle in a haystack I can name another team right off the bat that has done it. Damn., rare AF!

[exstatic]

Ok, but you just said the Heat didn't. And Curry was a 7th pick, hardly different than the 9th pick of the Spurs. And those Boston picks? Not from tanking, from trading with Brooklyn. They simply got incredibly lucky. Even the Mavs got super lucky by having 3 other teams pass on Luka. So if your argument is that you have to tank, your examples don't even prove that.

People here severely overrate tanking. Even if the Spurs were some kind of treadmill team, after a few years at their current position, they'd end up with a top 4 pick about 50% of the time.

Portland ABSOLUTELY went into the shitter, kept Dame inactive, Kept Nurk inactive when he was ready, played 50% gleague teams nearly every night, fell all the way to the six spot, and will pick seventh.

[Dex]

I'm not sure his abilities have diminished but the more he takes on the offensive end the less energy he'll have to be a lock up defender. Not that he ever was that, but yeah, point stands.

Still, you'd think leading the league in steals would give you an instant spot on All-NBA even if just 2nd team. It's not like he's been a slouch on either end.

[KingKev]

Still, you'd think leading the league in steals would give you an instant spot on All-NBA even if just 2nd team. It's not like he's been a slouch on either end.

Who is he really replacing? If they had a 3rd team he probably makes it but at the end of the day it’s another pretty useless accolade.

[TD 21]

The Heat are the needle in the haystack with their success. That type of success is very rare. Whether these teams got lucky in the Mavs with Doncic or the Warriors with Curry it still proves my point you have to have a top 10 pick usually to get a star in this league. In the last 30 years only, the Raptors won a title along with the Bucks with having a star player who wasn't a top 10 pick. Tanking unfortunately does work more often then not. The only other option to acquire top picks is through trade like you mentioned.

The Heat play in a glamor market which primarily led to Butler's (don't buy this "culture" propaganda) signing the same way it did James and Bosh and by the time the former signed, he was a 1st overall pick caliber player.

The same goes for the Raptors and Scumbag.

[KingKev]

The Heat play in a glamor market which primarily led to Butler's (don't buy this "culture" propaganda) signing the same way it did James and Bosh and by the time the former signed, he was a 1st overall pick caliber player.

The same goes for the Raptors and Scumbag.


Can’t fault Miami for being a player destination as they really do have a solid culture of hard work. Pat Riley is a pretty damn good GM and Spo is a pretty damn good coach.

[TD 21]

Can’t fault Miami for being a player destination as they really do have a solid culture of hard work. Pat Riley is a pretty damn good GM and Spo is a pretty damn good coach.

:lmao The Heat were going nowhere fast at the time and had the same exact situation existed in Denver, Milwaukee, Utah, etc. he wouldn't have even given them the time of day.

[KingKev]

:lmao The Heat were going nowhere fast at the time and had the same exact situation existed in Denver, Milwaukee, Utah, etc. he wouldn't have even given them the time of day.

Those organizations do many things right also. Butler went to a decent team as the best player and leader. Didn’t want to play with perennial losers in Minny and Philly who couldn’t match his energy. I don’t see the problem?

[R. DeMurre]

I'd say that just as there is no single way to win basketball games, there is no single way to assemble good basketball teams. Smart GMs are open to everything: draft work (moving up, moving down), trades, free agency, in house development, analytics, short tanks, etc...

[Chinook]

:lmao The Heat were going nowhere fast at the time and had the same exact situation existed in Denver, Milwaukee, Utah, etc. he wouldn't have even given them the time of day.

Yes, but also no. They were missing a star, but most of their best players are home-grown talent, including Richardson, whom they were able to use as the main trade piece. It's not very easy to imagine the Spurs as a destination a star would force his way to, but Butler had been traded multiple times before that, and the Spurs could have been one of those teams. If they prepare like Miami did and then strike like Minnesota did, they could have had the same success. As far as we've heard, Butler would have stayed in both Minny and Philly had they been willing to offer a max. He didn't seem obviously worth it at the time, but in retrospect, he was.

Miami definitely has a lot of advantages, but the Spurs can adopt or emphasize a lot of the Heat's philosophies. They don't need to tank to get their stars, but they can't afford to not be ready in a situation where one becomes available. I don't know who the next Butler would be, but the Spurs can't afford to be in a bad position to make an offer and capitalize on the talent when he does show up.

[KingKev]

I'd say that just as there is no single way to win basketball games, there is no single way to assemble good basketball teams. Smart GMs are open to everything: draft work (moving up, moving down), trades, free agency, in house development, short tanks, etc...

Yes! I’ll add perceived character issues but elite talent…

[MannyIsGod]

I'd say that just as there is no single way to win basketball games, there is no single way to assemble good basketball teams. Smart GMs are open to everything: draft work (moving up, moving down), trades, free agency, in house development, analytics, short tanks, etc...

100%

[daslicer]

The Heat play in a glamor market which primarily led to Butler's (don't buy this "culture" propaganda) signing the same way it did James and Bosh and by the time the former signed, he was a 1st overall pick caliber player.

The same goes for the Raptors and Scumbag.

I agree with you that the Heat are basically Lakers' East due to their destination which makes it very easy to rebuild through FA and even trades since players can force trades to go over there much like they do with the Lakers.

[TD 21]

Those organizations do many things right also. Butler went to a decent team as the best player and leader. Didn’t want to play with perennial losers in Minny and Philly who couldn’t match his energy. I don’t see the problem?

You're missing the point. I'm saying, places like the ones I mentioned can do as many things "right" as anyone and still not have a chance to sign a player of his caliber due to location. Meanwhile, the Heat can have a bleak looking situation and still have a chance.

When James signs with the Lakers it's primarily for off court reasons, but when Butler signs with the Heat it's because of "culture"? Don't believe the hype.



Yes, but also no. They were missing a star, but most of their best players are home-grown talent, including Richardson, whom they were able to use as the main trade piece. It's not very easy to imagine the Spurs as a destination a star would force his way to, but Butler had been traded multiple times before that, and the Spurs could have been one of those teams. If they prepare like Miami did and then strike like Minnesota did, they could have had the same success. As far as we've heard, Butler would have stayed in both Minny and Philly had they been willing to offer a max. He didn't seem obviously worth it at the time, but in retrospect, he was.

Miami definitely has a lot of advantages, but the Spurs can adopt or emphasize a lot of the Heat's philosophies. They don't need to tank to get their stars, but they can't afford to not be ready in a situation where one becomes available. I don't know who the next Butler would be, but the Spurs can't afford to be in a bad position to make an offer and capitalize on the talent when he does show up.

Prepare? The infallible geniuses that the media makes them out to be had overpaid for mediocrity (Whiteside, Winslow, Waiters, Johnson), Dragic was aging and Adebayo and Herro (overrated) were random decent prospects with uncertain futures.

I don't buy that Butler would have stayed in Minnesota and Philadelphia is a big market with a future Hall of Fame player and at the time another thought to have that potential.

So all they have to do is unearth a good core out of late lottery picks who fit a narrow minded criteria, simultaneously build up a treasure trove to acquire the next available star and have a team leftover that'll appeal to him enough to forgo preferring a big and/or glamour market? Good luck threading that needle.

[Chinook]

Prepare? The infallible geniuses that the media makes them out to be had overpaid for mediocrity (Whiteside, Winslow, Waiters, Johnson), Dragic was aging and Adebayo and Herro (overrated) were random decent prospects with uncertain futures.

When you create mediocrity from UDFAs and castoffs, that's impressive. The key after that is knowing how to leverage that created value into trade pieces. As I said, the benefit of someone like Richardson isn't what he actually did for Miami on the court, but that he could be a centerpiece in a trade for Butler. The Heat also developed many players but fell in love with basically none of them outside of Winslow. That's a lesson the Spurs would be wise to implement going forward. The Spurs have a decent amount of created value now, but if they sign them to big money and pretend like they're a franchise core, they are going to waste their opportunities. The White trade makes me think they'll be willing to make the moves they need to, but they'll have to be apply that to some of the other players too.


I don't buy that Butler would have stayed in Minnesota and Philadelphia is a big market with a future Hall of Fame player and at the time another thought to have that potential.

You can believe that if you want, but if a player is willing to sign an extension and THEN force a trade, that's way better than them just walking. Butler wanted and extension from Minny. That much we were told. Had he gotten it, maybe he still holds out, maybe he presses the Wolves to dump Towns or whatever. Maybe he's still there. All of those maybes are better than the reality of not ever having him for a team like the Spurs.


So all they have to do is unearth a good core out of late lottery picks who fit a narrow minded criteria, simultaneously build up a treasure trove to acquire the next available star and have a team leftover that'll appeal to him enough to forgo preferring a big and/or glamour market? Good luck threading that needle.

We don't know what trades are out there now, but I strongly doubt the Spurs can't get multiple top-10 picks in this draft if they wanted to. They don't actually have to continue to try to draft and develop a core in such a linear fashion. Intermediate trades and signings are part of that, as is taking the risk of trading for a player who isn't directly trying to force his way to SA and then selling the team to them. Not every star wants to go to a big market. I'd contend that fewer want to go than end up there. Big markets tend to have the capital to afford big tax bills and stars that do care about that sort of thing. What guys want is to be paid and to look good. Any franchise can do that if they can field the team. When you have a bad front office like the Wizards, guys like Beal will get wandering eyes. But a bunch of smaller-market teams in the league right now have stars who at best only get mentioned for leaving because the media loves pushing the narratives.

[TD 21]

When you create mediocrity from UDFAs and castoffs, that's impressive. The key after that is knowing how to leverage that created value into trade pieces. As I said, the benefit of someone like Richardson isn't what he actually did for Miami on the court, but that he could be a centerpiece in a trade for Butler.



You can believe that if you want, but if a player is willing to sign an extension and THEN force a trade, that's way better than them just walking. Butler wanted and extension from Minny. That much we were told.

Not every star wants to go to a big market. I'd contend that fewer want to go than end up there. Big markets tend to have the capital to afford big tax bills and stars that do care about that sort of thing. What guys want is to be paid and to look good. Any franchise can do that if they can field the team.

What you call "create", I call stumbling into. Mediocrity isn't difficult to achieve; the Spurs just approached/achieved it with one of the least talented rosters in the league mostly by having a cadre of competent two-way young veterans.

Richardson was a centerpiece for Butler only because the latter's antics tanked his value and teams almost always trade players of or above that caliber out of conference and to non re-building teams, which narrows the field considerably.

Fine, but no matter what Butler thought of Towns, he was and is a significantly better asset than any the Spurs have had since Scumbag.

Nah, just virtually every American one. That may be true elsewhere, but here you barely register on the national scale even if you're a superstar.

[daslicer]

Except the fact that 6 out of 15 all NBA slots from last year shows its not a needle in a haystack, is it. Its the exact opposite. You don't need a top 10 player to get a star in this league.

God damn I show you X and you still think that it has to be Y even when you yourself are giving examples of how its not. 1/4 is not needle in a haystack. How about the Bucks? Nothing higher than a 15th pick in their big 3. Shit is so much a needle in a haystack I can name another team right off the bat that has done it. Damn., rare AF!

Do you lack reading comprehension skills? I mentioned "In the last 30 years only, the Raptors won a title along with the Bucks with having a star player who wasn't a top 10 pick." It is rare AF. The Bucks and Raptors are the only 2 teams in the last 41 years to win titles with their stars not being a top 10 pick. When you do the math 2/41 is 4.8 percent. That's a very small percentage of having a chance to win a title without a top 10 pick. You wouldn't be confident if your doctor told you had only a 4.8 percent chance of surviving a deadly illness. I like to be optimistic about things but I don't like to be blindly optimistic.

[MannyIsGod]

Wow, on a spurs forum and you don't count a spurs team in your list. Duncan wasn't the star on that team. Furthermore, there's a reason that the teams that have done this have happened recently yet you're still going back 30 years. Who gives a shit what happens 15-30 years ago. It's not the same era.

[MannyIsGod]

Not to mention that not every team that won with a top 10 pick drafted that player.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and if you want to talk about percentages, what percentage of top 10 picks win NBA titles? Its fucking low. Insert stupid doctor analogy here too. The chances of any NBA team winning a title in any given year, whether they have top 10 picks or not, are fucking low so I don't know why you think pulling one bullshit low percentage chance over others somehow makes a point. Especially when you're skewing the percentages in a dishonest and irrelevant way just to make your point "stronger".

[MannyIsGod]

Look the point isn't that you don't see a positive relationship with the quality of players and the earlier draft picks. Obviously that is the case. A #1 pick is more likely to be a franchise player than later draft position. This isn't debatable. My initial post you replied to was showing that tanking for a top pick isn't the only way to get a star. Plenty of all NBA players are drafted at later positions. This too isn't debatable. The Spurs don't need to go on an all out tank in order to get a - by your definition the important threshold - a top 10 pick. They have a top 10 pick this year without a tank. But thinking that you have to draft a top 10 player in order to win in TODAY'S NBA is demonstrably false as there are plenty of recent examples of teams that this doesn't apply to and its sure as fuck not 5%.

[rascal]

Wow, on a spurs forum and you don't count a spurs team in your list. Duncan wasn't the star on that team. Furthermore, there's a reason that the teams that have done this have happened recently yet you're still going back 30 years. Who gives a shit what happens 15-30 years ago. It's not the same era.

Because if you go back you get more data points to support the argument. He buried you in this argument.

[daslicer]

Wow, on a spurs forum and you don't count a spurs team in your list. Duncan wasn't the star on that team. Furthermore, there's a reason that the teams that have done this have happened recently yet you're still going back 30 years. Who gives a shit what happens 15-30 years ago. It's not the same era.

Statically during the playoffs Duncan was the best player on the '14 Spurs title team. He was still an all-star caliber player back then. Yes who gives a shit about what happened the last 40 years lol. Lets go by the last 11 years. Only the Bucks and Raptors won a title in the last 11 years with a star player that wasn't a top 10 pick. 2/11 is 18 percent which is still not a good percentage. You and I both want the Spurs to get better but you are delusional.

The Spurs may get lucky in this draft and get a hidden gem but it's highly unlikely. I just like to play the odds and the odds are not with the Spurs getting a superstar out of this draft

[daslicer]

Look the point isn't that you don't see a positive relationship with the quality of players and the earlier draft picks. Obviously that is the case. A #1 pick is more likely to be a franchise player than later draft position. This isn't debatable. My initial post you replied to was showing that tanking for a top pick isn't the only way to get a star. Plenty of all NBA players are drafted at later positions. This too isn't debatable. The Spurs don't need to go on an all out tank in order to get a - by your definition the important threshold - a top 10 pick. They have a top 10 pick this year without a tank. But thinking that you have to draft a top 10 player in order to win in TODAY'S NBA is demonstrably false as there are plenty of recent examples of teams that this doesn't apply to and its sure as fuck not 5%.

Usually, you actually do have to have a top 10 draft pick to have a chance at being elite in the NBA. Denver with Jokic and the Bucks with Giannis are the only exceptions and that's still less than 5 percent.

[MannyIsGod]

Usually, you actually do have to have a top 10 draft pick to have a chance at being elite in the NBA. Denver with Jokic and the Bucks with Giannis are the only exceptions and that's still less than 5 percent.

You know how many top 10 picks in the past 10 drafts have won a title? 2. Anthony Davis and Harrison Barnes. 2%. That is less than any of the percentages you have given. You can go back 20 years and it improves slightly, but the percentage is still under 10% and that is with guys like Dwight Howard, Shaun Livingston, and Bogut picking up rings where they were role players at best.

There's a reason why I mentioned all NBA players, as NBA titles are extremely rare to begin with as only 1/30 teams wins it each year. If either the Celtics or Warriors win the title this year, this will go up, but only as role players for the Warriors and either way its not going up more than 2-3% at best. This is why your percentage bullshit is nonsense. You're taking extremely rare events, saying that WOW THIS IS RARE AND CAN ONLY BE DONE BY X when X itself is ALSO incredibly unsuccessful in general. Its a completely stupid way to look at the situation and only works if you take it out of context.

[MannyIsGod]

Because if you go back you get more data points to support the argument. He buried you in this argument.

Adding data points doesn't do shit for an argument when the data points aren't representative of the current system. Drafting in the NBA 30 years ago isn't the same as Drafting the NBA the past decade. The G Leauge, international players, and NCAA Basketball are all substantially different not to mention what type of players are necessary for today's NBA. Tim Duncan was drafted after 4 years of college. That was far more common in the 90s than it is now. Scouting now has to happen not just in the NCAA but also overseas in every professional league. Not that drafting was a sure thing back then, but drafting 21 and 22 years olds after years of NCAA scouting is extremely different than drafting 18-19 year olds. There's a reason why - although still low - the success rate for 2nd round draft picks and undrafted players is much higher today than it was 30 years ago.

[Chinook]

Usually, you actually do have to have a top 10 draft pick to have a chance at being elite in the NBA. Denver with Jokic and the Bucks with Giannis are the only exceptions and that's still less than 5 percent.

In case you're wondering, 2/30 is actually more than five percent.

Anyway, I think you can argue that 7/16 teams in the playoffs this year didn't do so thanks to drafting in the top-10. I think it's dishonest to talk about a team like Brooklyn which hasn't drafted in the top-10 since like Derrick Favors as evidence just because they signed stars who years and multiple franchises ago were drafted at the top of the first. I also wouldn't count teams that have top-10 draftees on their team that didn't contribute much like NOP and Chicago. Then you have team Phoenix whose top-10 pick is at best their third-best player but is arguably their fifth-best. Finally, you have Utah, who has also been an elite regular-season team despite not having a top-10 pick besides I guess Conley?

Arguing that the most talented players tend to be drafted highly doesn't do anything. I'd argue that it's willfully ignoring the actual debate. Drafting guys does not mean keeping them, and having RoFR doesn't mean a player is going to see the ends of their contracts. The Spurs should absolutely look for way to get a top pick in this year's draft. But their greater responsibility is to be a team with the infrastructure to take advantage of whatever talent they can acquire. It's my firm belief that a Spurs team that fully tanked to draft Tim back in 1997 would have seen him walk in 2000. That they had a roster who'd basically made it to the WCF a couple of years before is a huge part of why Duncan saw the early success with the Spurs that they were able to use to convince him to stay.

[spurraider21]

Kobe Bryant making the All Defensive First team 9 times vs. Tim Duncan making it 8 tells you all you need to know. Tim Duncan had 20 rebounds and 10 blocks in Finals closeout game for fk sake. Again, just making a point about the bias. Probably big reason why Kwahi weaseled his way outta here.
And Duncan was MVP, finals MVP, all nba first team and all defensive first team that year

[RC_Drunkford]

I don’t get the discussion since the Spurs have 9th pick, which is a top 10 pick. That means they can win a title right?

[Chinook]

I don’t get the discussion since the Spurs have 9th pick, which is a top 10 pick. That means they can win a title right?

Not to mention they have Collins who was a top-10 pick.

[Fireball]

Being the steals leader should have been enough for 2nd team tbh ... I mean how often was the DPoY determined on blocks per game alone? Yes, the Spurs were not good defensively overall but its weird that the media might have used that to not vote for him. One is really screwed in SA when you don't win championships ...

[XDT76]

Not to mention they have Collins who was a top-10 pick.

Jakob was 9

[Chinook]

Jakob was 9

Sure, but 10>9, so Collins gets the shoutout.

[R. DeMurre]

To look on the bright side a bit, Dejounte finished 12th in the league in voting for defensive abilities. That's still an accomplishment in a league with 150 starters (30x5) and 30 6th men. From that pool of 180 or so players, being 12th is still pretty nice.

[BackHome]

Portland ABSOLUTELY went into the shitter, kept Dame inactive, Kept Nurk inactive when he was ready, played 50% gleague teams nearly every night, fell all the way to the six spot, and will pick seventh.

Oklahoma did pretty good for tanking another season

[RC_Drunkford]

Jakob was 9 damn we gonna have 3 top 10 picks on the team to start the next season. We should be the favorites to win the chip

[Barfunk]

And Duncan was MVP, finals MVP, all nba first team and all defensive first team that year

Yeah, I was just pointing out how great Duncan was on that side of the ball. Kobe had no business making the Defensive First Team more than Duncan, I mean in my opinion that is. The mainstream fans will beg to differ of course.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, I was just pointing out how great Duncan was on that side of the ball. Kobe had no business making the Defensive First Team more than Duncan, I mean in my opinion that is. The mainstream fans will beg to differ of course.
i agree but thats a really poor argument for it. all defensive awards should not be lifetime achievement awards. player A shouldnt make more all-defensive teams than player B because player A was really dominant in a given finals game.

its also usually quite different between bigs/guards. for most of the league's history, we think of dominant defenders are rim protectors. 23 of the last 31 DPOY's have been centers.