Ja said What???/

[lebomb]

Ja is a balla, but ummmmmm.............not a chance in hell he is beating MJ period. :lol


https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/grizzlies-star-ja-morant-says-he-wouldve-cooked-michael-jordan-if-he-played-against-him/

[monosylab1k]

Of course Ja would win, Jordan is like 60 years old.

[lebomb]

Of course Ja would win, Jordan is like 60 years old.

Yeah maybe now, but it would be a damn close game.

[Neo.]

cooked, sure. mike frequently got cooked by guards and wings with actual scoring ability. there just werent that many during his prime years

beaten? doubtful.

[Dirks_Finale]

I guess that is what he is supposed to say. But we all know it's not true.

[Killakobe81]

cooked, sure. mike frequently got cooked by guards and wings with actual scoring ability. there just werent that many during his prime years

beaten? doubtful.

Fair post all around …
Ja wouldnt beat MJ 1 on 1
But those acting like he couldn’t even get a bucket are wild too
Don’t mind irrational confidence in a young lion, your Tony Parker had it even took Brent Barry manhood with it
Kobe and MJ had it too
Unfortunately fir ja as much as I like him he will be lucky to have the full resume Tony had especially since he already has balky knees early

[DMC]

Anyone who thinks anyone today could beat Michael never watched Michael play. Just go watch his highlights, then understand he played like that every game. When Mike would come to your city to play your team, you almost accepted defeat and could only hope your team stopped the other players, but Mike was going to go off. No one in the league at that time came close, not a single player. Only Lebron has come close to the effectiveness Mike had, but Lebron never had that brutality and cold blooded drive to destroy your team. He was just incredibly gifted athletically, genetically and with lack of health concerns. If Lebron had Mike's desire to destroy the opponent night and and night out, you wouldn't see Lebron dancing like an idiot on the sidelines while losing, and he would never have left Cleveland. Cleveland would have multiple rings.

[Neo.]

Anyone who thinks anyone today could beat Michael never watched Michael play. Just go watch his highlights, then understand he played like that every game. When Mike would come to your city to play your team, you almost accepted defeat and could only hope your team stopped the other players, but Mike was going to go off. No one in the league at that time came close, not a single player. Only Lebron has come close to the effectiveness Mike had, but Lebron never had that brutality and cold blooded drive to destroy your team. He was just incredibly gifted athletically, genetically and with lack of health concerns. If Lebron had Mike's desire to destroy the opponent night and and night out, you wouldn't see Lebron dancing like an idiot on the sidelines while losing, and he would never have left Cleveland. Cleveland would have multiple rings.

so full of retarded it's not even funny

[monosylab1k]

It’s funny how a few dumb tweets and letting your dad sit courtside every game will turn you from one of the most likable players in the league to one of the most hated :lol

I love that the Grizz are trying so hard to be villains but I don’t see enough juice there tbh

[FrostKing]

Did Morant even cook Curry this past postseason?

[DMC]

so full of retarded it's not even funny

^Wasn't even alive when Jordan was in his prime :lol

[ambchang]

Some random middle aged CEO beat jordan one on one so it could happen.

[Dirks_Finale]

Anyone who thinks anyone today could beat Michael never watched Michael play. Just go watch his highlights, then understand he played like that every game. When Mike would come to your city to play your team, you almost accepted defeat and could only hope your team stopped the other players, but Mike was going to go off. No one in the league at that time came close, not a single player. Only Lebron has come close to the effectiveness Mike had, but Lebron never had that brutality and cold blooded drive to destroy your team. He was just incredibly gifted athletically, genetically and with lack of health concerns. If Lebron had Mike's desire to destroy the opponent night and and night out, you wouldn't see Lebron dancing like an idiot on the sidelines while losing, and he would never have left Cleveland. Cleveland would have multiple rings.

All true.

Nobody demoralized their opponents like MJ did. Even the refs asked him for autographs like some giddy little school girls.

I doubt we ever witness that sort of dominance in our lifetime's again.

[monosylab1k]

Did Morant even cook Curry this past postseason?

Game 2 he destroyed Curry, and if he doesn’t get hurt that series goes to Game 7 with the Grizz at home.

[monosylab1k]

tbh i head Michael Jordan did perform Christlike miracles, he turned millions of poker chips into a dead father.

[Neo.]

^Wasn't even alive when Jordan was in his prime :lol

except I was. saw his prime. goat. but not the fabrications you just described.

[Neo.]

All true.

Nobody demoralized their opponents like MJ did. Even the refs asked him for autographs like some giddy little school girls.

I doubt we ever witness that sort of dominance in our lifetime's again.

already seen dominance that completely dwarfs mike

russell and wilt

[Rummpd]

Morant could not take Jordan but maybe with his length on both sides of ball Durant maybe on a hot shooting day could? (Not saying Durant as great as Jordan just in one on one)

[Bynumite]

Is Morant allowed to carry the ball against Jordan? If so, he might have a slight chance of winning.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzM-5oXV1jI&ab_channel=UNCUTSPORTSTV

[LkrFan]

Ja is a balla, but ummmmmm.............not a chance in hell he is beating MJ period. :lol


https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/grizzlies-star-ja-morant-says-he-wouldve-cooked-michael-jordan-if-he-played-against-him/

Pip guarded the best perimeter players while clowned and dominated plumbers and fishermen. :lol

Ja would cook MJ Ole sweet and sour chicken ass :lol

[DMC]

except I was. saw his prime. goat. but not the fabrications you just described.

What were you, 5?

Mike won 6 rings and 10 scoring titles, his accolades are ridiculous. You can try to revise history and say he had no comp, but the original Dream Team was his comp and he beat the others on the regular.

Couldn't play a lick of baseball though.

[DMC]

Pip guarded the best perimeter players while clowned and dominated plumbers and fishermen. :lol

Ja would cook MJ Ole sweet and sour chicken ass :lol

On cue :lol


What were you, 5?

Mike won 6 rings and 10 scoring titles, his accolades are ridiculous. You can try to revise history and say he had no comp, but the original Dream Team was his comp and he beat the others on the regular.

Couldn't play a lick of baseball though.

[DMC]

Let's make it simple: Ja's mother named him god. Larry Bird named Jordan god. Ja is a great player, but stop being stupid by comparing him to Mike.

[JamStone]

Michael Jordan is/was the greatest basketball ever when you look at combination of talent and skill, physical and athletic abilities, and translating those things into winning. But also, when you look at it from a propaganda point of view. The league made him a poster boy early on, and then his shoes and TV commercials and then the exposure of the Dream Team in the Olympics all helped make him a global superstar the likes of the Beatles and Michael Jackson, and has only since been challenged by superstars like Tiger Woods and Beyoncé. That said, his legend on the court often gets egregiously exaggerated thru the lens of nostalgia.

Michael may have demoralized “some” opponents. Some lesser opponents. Bird wasn’t scared of Jordan. Isiah wasn’t scared of Jordan. Now, Jordan may have still punked those guys, their teams some of the time. But they weren’t demoralized by him. You want to say he demoralized Craig Ehlo and John Starks and Byron Russell, ok, sure. But not every player, certainly not star players, not every team bowed down and cowered to Michael in reverence. And everyone knows Michael couldn’t get over on the likes of Bird and Magic and even Isiah until they got old. That’s just historic fact.

As far as one-on-one, I think a lot of the all time great players could “hang” with Michael and would have a 50/50 shot or close to it to beating him in any given game. LeBron, Kobe, McGrady, Durant, Bird, Vince, Dirk. Guys with size and skill to match up and at least make it difficult for Michael to also stop them. Not saying any of them beat Michael for sure, certainly not convincingly. Only, I’d give those caliber of players a 50/50 shot, any given game. Hell, I think Joker and Dream would give Michael hell in a game of one-on-one. And how in the hell is Michael stopping Wilt one-on-one?

As for Ja, I think for him to have any shot, similar to like an Iverson, it matters who gets the ball first and if they game is make it, take it. Because maybe guys like Iverson and Morant can’t stop Michael, but I don’t think Michael stops either one of those guys either. So it’s a matter of getting the ball first. Do I think Ja beats Michael? No. But if he got the ball first and it’s make it, take it, he improves his chances significantly.

[LkrFan]

On cue :lol

Jordan would be an all star in today's NBA, but not other worldly like back in the day. Ja is better than 95% of the competition Jordan faced in his hey day. I watched Zeke send him home and cooked him.

Ja is as explosive and jumps higher than Zeke did. He would cook Jordan. You farmers act like dude was some invincible urban legend. SMH

[Rummpd]

Pip guarded the best perimeter players while clowned and dominated plumbers and fishermen. :lol

Ja would cook MJ Ole sweet and sour chicken ass :lol

Kobe with his non efficiency game and low PER a quick out - that’s a lock

[Neo.]

What were you, 5?

Mike won 6 rings and 10 scoring titles, his accolades are ridiculous. You can try to revise history and say he had no comp, but the original Dream Team was his comp and he beat the others on the regular.

Couldn't play a lick of baseball though.

not even gonna compare the competition.

the rules clearly favored his style of play. it would be laughable to see guys like lebron get to go either purely one-on-one, or be able to completely pick apart the defense should they decide to blatantly double. and :lmao at anyone who thinks more leniency on hand checking is going to do anything to stop him from getting to the rim at will.

either we have to judge all eras as is, or we have to analyze them all fairly. we cant dismiss wilt and russell because they played weak and had stacked teams, in favor of mike, while completely throwing it all out the window when comparing mike to more modern generations.

i still feel overall, mike is the goat. but there is definitely arguments to be had otherwise, and he certainly had circumstances that he greatly benefitted from as much as anyone, while others didnt have near the same luxuries.

and to act as if he just demoralized and put the fear of god into every opponent he played, absolutely not. teams and players had a deep respect for him as a player, but its not like they just bent over and gave up as soon as they saw him. and if we are going to bring guys like bird into the equation, then thats just stupid because mike went 0-6 against bird in the playoffs. by time mikes teams reached their peak, bird was pretty much broken down as a player. highly doubt those bulls teams would win 6 championships if they were battling the lakers and celtics at their primes, as opposed to coming to power after they faded and the league had a severe lack of quality wing players

[lefty]

Ja would easily dominate Jorbum tbh

[LkrFan]

Kobe with his non efficiency game and low PER a quick out - that’s a lock
This is not a Kobe thread. - 20 points son :lol

[lebomb]

Ja would easily dominate Jorbum tbh

Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja. :claw

[lebomb]

Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja. :claw

I meant to add boil and fry Ja as well.

[LkrFan]

Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja. :claw

Jordan usually rested on defense playing against CPAs and real estate agents. He wouldn't be able to do so in today's NBA. Even today's "scrubs" are more skilled and more athletic than Jeff Hornacek, Craig Ehlo, John Starks and another 95% of the perimeter players Jordan faced. He dominated scrubs because he was skilled and superior to them athletically.

And defensively, he can't hand check, so let's not act like he'd really lock anybody down. I still remember Kobe dropping 55 on his head (42 at the half; Phil basically benched Kobe in the 2nd half to protect Jordan).

But but but Jordan was old. So is Bron right now - and Bron has more mileage/years right now than Jordan ever had. Who ever did that to Bron?

Needless to say Bron > Jordan. But let's not blindly say Ja wouldn't cook Jordan.

By the way, cooking someone does not mean he's better than Jordan. Cooking to me means Jordan cannot shut Ja down. In his prime he never shut down Zeke. Ja is more explosive than Zeke.

[lefty]

Bullsh, Jordan would average 45pts a game with no hand checking or clotheslining his arse when he drives to the bucket. I love Ja, but prime Jordan would, roast, bake, sauté and cook Ja. :claw

:loll Jorbum would average DeRozan numbers today

[ambchang]

The legend of jordan is getting hilarious. It’s one of those tall tales now. It’s like hearing somebody’s great uncle killing a mountain lion with his bare hands right after fighting away a pack of 25 wolves with a toothbrush. It’s at a preposterous level and things are basically based on wild exaggeration and conjecture. The funniest thing is that we can all find his videos on YouTube.

Was jordan great? No doubt about it? GoAT? He’s definitely the front runner. But is he really that much better than anyone else? No. He lost multiple times in the playoffs. To better teams. He was largely a ballhog out for his individual glory rather than team success early on in his career. He was not greater than magic until he won his third title. Bird owned jordan so badly that jordan started acting like a white guy to be more like his son.

Zeke destroyed jordan multiple times as well.

If it wasn’t for Pippen jordan would be another excellent player. I’d argue Lebron, shaq and Duncan were easier to build around than jordan.

[Dirks_Finale]

Michael Jordan is/was the greatest basketball ever when you look at combination of talent and skill, physical and athletic abilities, and translating those things into winning. But also, when you look at it from a propaganda point of view. The league made him a poster boy early on, and then his shoes and TV commercials and then the exposure of the Dream Team in the Olympics all helped make him a global superstar the likes of the Beatles and Michael Jackson, and has only since been challenged by superstars like Tiger Woods and Beyoncé. That said, his legend on the court often gets egregiously exaggerated thru the lens of nostalgia.

Michael may have demoralized “some” opponents. Some lesser opponents. Bird wasn’t scared of Jordan. Isiah wasn’t scared of Jordan. Now, Jordan may have still punked those guys, their teams some of the time. But they weren’t demoralized by him. You want to say he demoralized Craig Ehlo and John Starks and Byron Russell, ok, sure. But not every player, certainly not star players, not every team bowed down and cowered to Michael in reverence. And everyone knows Michael couldn’t get over on the likes of Bird and Magic and even Isiah until they got old. That’s just historic fact.

As far as one-on-one, I think a lot of the all time great players could “hang” with Michael and would have a 50/50 shot or close to it to beating him in any given game. LeBron, Kobe, McGrady, Durant, Bird, Vince, Dirk. Guys with size and skill to match up and at least make it difficult for Michael to also stop them. Not saying any of them beat Michael for sure, certainly not convincingly. Only, I’d give those caliber of players a 50/50 shot, any given game. Hell, I think Joker and Dream would give Michael hell in a game of one-on-one. And how in the hell is Michael stopping Wilt one-on-one?

As for Ja, I think for him to have any shot, similar to like an Iverson, it matters who gets the ball first and if they game is make it, take it. Because maybe guys like Iverson and Morant can’t stop Michael, but I don’t think Michael stops either one of those guys either. So it’s a matter of getting the ball first. Do I think Ja beats Michael? No. But if he got the ball first and it’s make it, take it, he improves his chances significantly.

Valid points...however, once Jordan hit his prime, nobody else ate in the 90's unless he was retired stemming from boredom.

[Dirks_Finale]

The legend of jordan is getting hilarious. It’s one of those tall tales now. It’s like hearing somebody’s great uncle killing a mountain lion with his bare hands right after fighting away a pack of 25 wolves with a toothbrush. It’s at a preposterous level and things are basically based on wild exaggeration and conjecture. The funniest thing is that we can all find his videos on YouTube.

Was jordan great? No doubt about it? GoAT? He’s definitely the front runner. But is he really that much better than anyone else? No. He lost multiple times in the playoffs. To better teams. He was largely a ballhog out for his individual glory rather than team success early on in his career. He was not greater than magic until he won his third title. Bird owned jordan so badly that jordan started acting like a white guy to be more like his son.

Zeke destroyed jordan multiple times as well.

If it wasn’t for Pippen jordan would be another excellent player. I’d argue Lebron, shaq and Duncan were easier to build around than jordan.

That's like saying Lebron was owned by Duncan and KG until they got old. :lol

Those guys were more seasoned and arguably had more talent to work with. Same situation with young Jordan vs Bird, Zeke, etc.

[ambchang]

Valid points...however, once Jordan hit his prime, nobody else ate in the 90's unless he was retired stemming from boredom.

The bulls had the greatest perimeter tandem (both o and d) in jordan and Pippen. But they still require outside shooting centres to open up the lane and a rugged interior defender and rebounder to get their misses.

As the years go by people make it sound like jordan dragged the hapless bulls to six titles when the reality is that Pippen is one of the most amazing perimeter players ever. Outside of Lebron (massive upgrade) and a healthy grant hill (non existent) I can’t think of a single player who could’ve replaced Pippen with that type of defender creator role.

The east was also ridiculously weak those years that by the time the bulls get to the finals they were well rested. Year in and year out, four of the top five teams were in the west (Portland, Seattle, Houston, Phoenix, spurs, jazz we’re all better than Knicks, pacers and heat).

The teams are generally weak due to massive expansions in the late 80s mid 90s with heat, wolves, magic, hornets and later raptors and grizzlies) that it spread out the talent too much. Teams with talent at the top would dominate. Really, how would a team like the Knicks with Ewing and a bunch of nobodies with50+ year in year out? Ditto hakeem with the rockets (even won two titles), sonics with Payton and kemp, spurs with robinson, Portland with Clyde and a combination of porter kersey and duck worth, magic with shaq and penny. The league had some megastars but the talent was spread thin. There were no longer deep teams like the bad boys, showtime lakers or Celtics. Jordan was simply a beneficiary of it.

[ambchang]

That's like saying Lebron was owned by Duncan and KG until they got old. :lol

Those guys were more seasoned and arguably had more talent to work with. Same situation with young Jordan vs Bird, Zeke, etc.

Nobody is saying Duncan and Garnett were trembling in fear when they say Lebron though.

[monosylab1k]

1546928760552816640

[FrostKing]

not even gonna compare the competition.

the rules clearly favored his style of play. it would be laughable to see guys like lebron get to go either purely one-on-one, or be able to completely pick apart the defense should they decide to blatantly double. and :lmao at anyone who thinks more leniency on hand checking is going to do anything to stop him from getting to the rim at will.

either we have to judge all eras as is, or we have to analyze them all fairly. we cant dismiss wilt and russell because they played weak and had stacked teams, in favor of mike, while completely throwing it all out the window when comparing mike to more modern generations.

i still feel overall, mike is the goat. but there is definitely arguments to be had otherwise, and he certainly had circumstances that he greatly benefitted from as much as anyone, while others didnt have near the same luxuries.

and to act as if he just demoralized and put the fear of god into every opponent he played, absolutely not. teams and players had a deep respect for him as a player, but its not like they just bent over and gave up as soon as they saw him. and if we are going to bring guys like bird into the equation, then thats just stupid because mike went 0-6 against bird in the playoffs. by time mikes teams reached their peak, bird was pretty much broken down as a player. highly doubt those bulls teams would win 6 championships if they were battling the lakers and celtics at their primes, as opposed to coming to power after they faded and the league had a severe lack of quality wing players
MJ fucked with his own teammates. I'm Duke but I tip my hat he's North Carolina upbringing. Best fundamentals.

[FrostKing]

https://youtu.be/NQ1UldU1hJs

[FrostKing]

Suns and Jazz up late. MJ steals their hearts.

[FrostKing]

Lebron has the skills but not the brain. Didn't go to North Carolina. MJ was humbled playing under Worthy.

[Dirks_Finale]

The bulls had the greatest perimeter tandem (both o and d) in jordan and Pippen. But they still require outside shooting centres to open up the lane and a rugged interior defender and rebounder to get their misses.

As the years go by people make it sound like jordan dragged the hapless bulls to six titles when the reality is that Pippen is one of the most amazing perimeter players ever. Outside of Lebron (massive upgrade) and a healthy grant hill (non existent) I can’t think of a single player who could’ve replaced Pippen with that type of defender creator role.

The east was also ridiculously weak those years that by the time the bulls get to the finals they were well rested. Year in and year out, four of the top five teams were in the west (Portland, Seattle, Houston, Phoenix, spurs, jazz we’re all better than Knicks, pacers and heat).

The teams are generally weak due to massive expansions in the late 80s mid 90s with heat, wolves, magic, hornets and later raptors and grizzlies) that it spread out the talent too much. Teams with talent at the top would dominate. Really, how would a team like the Knicks with Ewing and a bunch of nobodies with50+ year in year out? Ditto hakeem with the rockets (even won two titles), sonics with Payton and kemp, spurs with robinson, Portland with Clyde and a combination of porter kersey and duck worth, magic with shaq and penny. The league had some megastars but the talent was spread thin. There were no longer deep teams like the bad boys, showtime lakers or Celtics. Jordan was simply a beneficiary of it.

I'm definitely not saying that, Pippen and Grant/Rodman played a sizable role in helping them win. But when the games were on the line, MJ came through. Everybody and their momma knew he was getting the rock, yet nobody could stop him. In the closing moments of the 98 Finals, with a hobbled Pippen mainly just a decoy out there, you knew Jordan was going to take over. It was as predictable as Biden saying something stupid every week, because history repeats itself.

The East was kinda weak but I feel like his Final's opponents were not and they get intentionally underrated in order to elevate Lebron. The 96 Sonics are, imo, one of the best teams in NBA history to not win it all. And in 91, almost everyone was picking LA over Chicago before the series started. When the Lakers lost, the narrative became they were old and washed. I see both sides of the argument trying to rewrite history sometimes,

[Dirks_Finale]

Lebron has the skills but not the brain. Didn't go to North Carolina. MJ was humbled playing under Worthy.


He also comes across as a petty little bitch sometimes.

[DMC]

He also comes across as a petty little bitch sometimes.

"And I took that personally"

No one nit picks micro offenses like Mike, but that massive chip on his shoulder is what fueled him. He didn't let off the gas just because he got paid.

[DMC]

Jordan would be an all star in today's NBA, but not other worldly like back in the day. Ja is better than 95% of the competition Jordan faced in his hey day. I watched Zeke send him home and cooked him.

Ja is as explosive and jumps higher than Zeke did. He would cook Jordan. You farmers act like dude was some invincible urban legend. SMH

Outside of the 3pt anomalies, prime Mike would be the best player in the game today. Who would be better, Durant? Devin Booker?

[Chris Fall]

The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell fucking Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.

[DMC]

The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell fucking Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.

Still would be best player (you have to consider both ends of the floor), and Mike could do ok from 3 but as you said, the 3pt shot wasn't as prolific back then as it is now. Rule changes have helped facilitate that, but Mike could score when bigs were allowed to camp out under the basket.

No one said Mike playing 80's style ball vs today's league play style. Mike would do fine in today's system, he'd probably score much easier when bigs cannot camp under the basket. The only comparison to DDR is midrange shooting. Tim Duncan was also a midrange shooter.

[Chris Fall]

Everything is conjecture. For both of us. I don't believe Michael Jordan would be the best player in today's NBA. But you do. Every argument I make, every argument you make is still based on conjecture.

Michael is viewed as the greatest in large part because of his championship success. Keep everything the same, his talent, skill, athletic ability, individual statistics, the era he played in, his competition, the Jordan shoe brand, the Mars Blackmon commercials, Come Fly with Me, Be like Mike, all of that thode things the same, but take away the titles, and well, he's not the Goat. He's not even in the conversation. And if you put Michael in today's game, same talent and skill and athleticism and individual statistics, you cannot guarantee to be able to build a championship team around him, much less a 6 time championship dynasty. The 6'6 uber athletic power guard has been replaced with the do-it-all point forward. LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Luka. Guys with size and length and strength and ability to not only score 25 points a game but collect 8+ assists a game, bring down 8-10 rebounds a game while defending up to 4-5 positions. The Michael Jordan prototype doesn't fit today's game, no matter how talented. Even if you don't like the DeRozan comp, Jordan's prototype is like Jaylen Brown, Zach LaVine. Good players, heck, great players. All stars. But they're not in the discussion of best player in the league.

Jordan would be a great player in any era. In today's game, his game doesn't necessarily translate into multiple championships. And if he's not winning multiple championships, I don't think people are considering him the best player in the league. He'd probably have to go the route of LeBron and Durant and form a superteam to try to build his case and resume.

[monosylab1k]

Boomer basketball takes are always hilarious to read :lol

[monosylab1k]

The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell fucking Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.
At the same time, if Jordan played in today’s league he definitely would have personally hired Chip Engelland and made himself a great 3pt shooter. The years with the shortened 3pt line in the 90’s, he immediately jumped on that advantage, and he would most likely do the same in today’s league.

[Bynumite]

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1024/MTgzMjU5Njg2MTczMTU2Mzkw/232891060_675575033839924_7041269295604769787_n.we bp

[lefty]

Suns and Jazz up late. MJ steals their hearts.
You mean Paxson and Kerr mostly

[LkrFan]

Outside of the 3pt anomalies, prime Mike would be the best player in the game today. Who would be better, Durant? Devin Booker?

If he can't shoot 3s, modern defenses can scheme to stop him. He had free reigns back in the 80s with no one physically capable to guard him and get their own buckets. And he played against antiquated defenses and no zones.

Kobe had everything Mike had in his bag (but with a greater shooting range). Thibbs Celtics defense held him to 6-24 shooting. Why would Jordan do better? For reference, look at what the Glove did to MJ in the 96 Finals (his % was lower in these Finals than the other 5).

I do think KD would be better, at least offensively in today's NBA. You can't teach that kind of size and shooting ability.

[LkrFan]

6-24 in game 7, that is, IIRC.

[Bynumite]

Demar Derozan, Trae Young, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell are all top 10 in scoring this season but Michael fucking Jordan wouldn't be able to adjust to today's defenses :lmao

[Neo.]

Demar Derozan, Trae Young, Devin Booker and Donovan Mitchell are all top 10 in scoring this season but Michael fucking Jordan wouldn't be able to adjust to today's defenses :lmao

who said he couldnt adjust?

i think people simply said he wouldnt be the clear-cut best player in the league, or run away with scoring titles every year like he did when the rules made isolations the most effective offense in the game.

[ambchang]

I'm definitely not saying that, Pippen and Grant/Rodman played a sizable role in helping them win. But when the games were on the line, MJ came through. Everybody and their momma knew he was getting the rock, yet nobody could stop him. In the closing moments of the 98 Finals, with a hobbled Pippen mainly just a decoy out there, you knew Jordan was going to take over. It was as predictable as Biden saying something stupid every week, because history repeats itself.

The East was kinda weak but I feel like his Final's opponents were not and they get intentionally underrated in order to elevate Lebron. The 96 Sonics are, imo, one of the best teams in NBA history to not win it all. And in 91, almost everyone was picking LA over Chicago before the series started. When the Lakers lost, the narrative became they were old and washed. I see both sides of the argument trying to rewrite history sometimes,

Jordan was definitely a clutch mofo, there are no arguments about that.

For the 91 Lakers, Worthy was hobbling and Scott was in a huge shooting slump (likely because he had to exert so much energy guarding Jordan). The Lakers were leading 0-1 until Pippen started to guarded Magic and forced the Lakers to slow down the offense, it was a great masterful move, which brings me back to the original point of Pippen being a unique player that couldn't be replicated (again, other than Lebron or a healthy in-his-prime Grant Hill). Pippen basically played the role of Kawhi in 14 or Iggy in 15, but with strong offence to go along with it. He is now getting massively underrated because of the Jordan myths.

Sonics was great, and should have won. Rodman on Kemp really changed that series. If it wasn't for Rodman Kemp would have gone nuclear. Which brings me to another point, the Bulls have issues with good bigs. Ewing really wasn't that great but he gave the Bulls some trouble, even Rik Smits gave the Bulls serios trouble. If the Bulls were out West, they would have to face Olajuwon and Robinson, not to mention Kemp and pedo every year just to get to the finals. As history has it, they only had to go through Ewing and Smits instead (Shaq for a few years before he went to the Lakers).

Again, Jordan did very well for himself and I think he took advantage of the situation, but to say that Jordan was undisputedly the best player ever is largely due to narratives. Lebron has the stats and accolades to back up, so does Wilt and Kareem. Jordan is definitely NOT the easiest superstar to build a championship team from scratch. Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron, Wilt and arguably Kareem were all easier to build around.acc

[DMC]

If he can't shoot 3s, modern defenses can scheme to stop him. He had free reigns back in the 80s with no one physically capable to guard him and get their own buckets. And he played against antiquated defenses and no zones.

Kobe had everything Mike had in his bag (but with a greater shooting range). Thibbs Celtics defense held him to 6-24 shooting. Why would Jordan do better? For reference, look at what the Glove did to MJ in the 96 Finals (his % was lower in these Finals than the other 5).

I do think KD would be better, at least offensively in today's NBA. You can't teach that kind of size and shooting ability.

Do you think MJ, who had no midrange game when he entered the league and became probably the best midrange shooter ever, would bring 80's level play to the modern NBA. Just wondering why folks like you think "if you plucked MJ out of the 80's and dropped him into a game today..." which isn't the claim. The claim is, if MJ's prime was now, he'd be the best player in the NBA. Not that his prime then would win today.

[DMC]

Jordan was definitely a clutch mofo, there are no arguments about that.

For the 91 Lakers, Worthy was hobbling and Scott was in a huge shooting slump (likely because he had to exert so much energy guarding Jordan). The Lakers were leading 0-1 until Pippen started to guarded Magic and forced the Lakers to slow down the offense, it was a great masterful move, which brings me back to the original point of Pippen being a unique player that couldn't be replicated (again, other than Lebron or a healthy in-his-prime Grant Hill). Pippen basically played the role of Kawhi in 14 or Iggy in 15, but with strong offence to go along with it. He is now getting massively underrated because of the Jordan myths.

Sonics was great, and should have won. Rodman on Kemp really changed that series. If it wasn't for Rodman Kemp would have gone nuclear. Which brings me to another point, the Bulls have issues with good bigs. Ewing really wasn't that great but he gave the Bulls some trouble, even Rik Smits gave the Bulls serios trouble. If the Bulls were out West, they would have to face Olajuwon and Robinson, not to mention Kemp and pedo every year just to get to the finals. As history has it, they only had to go through Ewing and Smits instead (Shaq for a few years before he went to the Lakers).

Again, Jordan did very well for himself and I think he took advantage of the situation, but to say that Jordan was undisputedly the best player ever is largely due to narratives. Lebron has the stats and accolades to back up, so does Wilt and Kareem. Jordan is definitely NOT the easiest superstar to build a championship team from scratch. Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Lebron, Wilt and arguably Kareem were all easier to build around.acc
This like like the argument that Tim did so well because he had 3 HOFers around him, and that Parker and Manu wouldn't be shit without Tim (in the same breath). Take one or the other. Because Mike dominated the league, people try to downplay the level of competition, like they use today's players and game style to call that era weak, yet the top 10 all time is full of those guys and Mike sits at the top.

Some of you think the most recent champion should be on the all time top 10 list, too bad you see Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq and Tim on that list. Tim who's prime was in 2003 and who played against MJ while MJ was in Chicago. Bird who also played against MJ and called him god, and Magic who acknowledged Jordan is the GOAT even if he might prefer Dick Butkus or Bob Griese.

[LkrFan]

Do you think MJ, who had no midrange game when he entered the league and became probably the best midrange shooter ever, would bring 80's level play to the modern NBA. Just wondering why folks like you think "if you plucked MJ out of the 80's and dropped him into a game today..." which isn't the claim. The claim is, if MJ's prime was now, he'd be the best player in the NBA. Not that his prime then would win today.

Well considering today's game requires you to be a triple threat, no MJ wouldn't be the best.

Today's defensive schemes won't just allow him to stay in the midrange.

Case in point - DeRozan is even shooting 3s now. MJ's 32% 3pt shooting will not unclog the paint or break a zone. There is a plethora of athletic players that can guard him within modern derensive schemes.

[LkrFan]

Speaking of non 3pt shooting MJ, he'd be modern day Demar Derozan for real. In the regular season, he'll look great. In the playoffs, he'd fall off, scoring wise. Why? No 3pt shot. Modern defensiveminded coaches can pick out his weaknesses and exploit them in the playoffs. DD is a prime example:

2022 Regular season
27.9ppg
5.2rpg
4.9apg

2022 Playoffs
20.8ppg
5.4rpg
4.8apg

:lol

[DMC]

Well considering today's game requires you to be a triple threat, no MJ wouldn't be the best.

Today's defensive schemes won't just allow him to stay in the midrange.

Case in point - DeRozan is even shooting 3s now. MJ's 32% 3pt shooting will not unclog the paint or break a zone. There is a plethora of athletic players that can guard him within modern derensive schemes.
:lol You're still trying to pick and place him.

"Well he's prime but in the 80s when few shot the 3, he wasn't that great compared today" makes no sense.

[DMC]

Speaking of non 3pt shooting MJ, he'd be modern day Demar Derozan for real. In the regular season, he'll look great. In the playoffs, he'd fall off, scoring wise. Why? No 3pt shot. Modern defensiveminded coaches can pick out his weaknesses and exploit them in the playoffs. DD is a prime example:

2022 Regular season
27.9ppg
5.2rpg
4.9apg

2022 Playoffs
20.8ppg
5.4rpg
4.8apg

:lol

Dogging on your hero's idol.

[LkrFan]

This how teams in today's NBA would guard Jordan:
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 8153bf7e-76a4-43d1-bfaa-bd9fd4fa7a01_2474x1578.png

:lol

[LkrFan]

:lol You're still trying to pick and place him.

"Well he's prime but in the 80s when few shot the 3, he wasn't that great compared today" makes no sense.

Michael Jeffrey DeFrozen :lol

[Neo.]

This like like the argument that Tim did so well because he had 3 HOFers around him, and that Parker and Manu wouldn't be shit without Tim (in the same breath). Take one or the other. Because Mike dominated the league, people try to downplay the level of competition, like they use today's players and game style to call that era weak, yet the top 10 all time is full of those guys and Mike sits at the top.

the talent of the era itself isnt whats weak. its talent at comparable positions. wings were very weak during the time mike dominated. in the mid 80s, about 12 of the top 15 scorers in the league were wing players. by the mid 90s, about 12 of the top 15 were bigs. he rarely had to defend anyone good, and rarely had anyone good defending him. he was a monumental mismatch due to lack of talent at his position, much like shaq and timmy were from 99-07. the rest of the NBA became full of MJ copycats duking it out among each other, while shaq and timmy were unmatched and winning everything until the celtics created a superteam and the lakers colluded and threw the league out of wack.

[LkrFan]

Dogging on your hero's idol.

The truth is the truth. Jordan might even be Andrew Wiggins in today's NBA :lol

[LkrFan]

the talent of the era itself isnt whats weak. its talent at comparable positions. wings were very weak during the time mike dominated. in the mid 80s, about 12 of the top 15 scorers in the league were wing players. by the mid 90s, about 12 of the top 15 were bigs. he rarely had to defend anyone good, and rarely had anyone good defending him. he was a monumental mismatch due to lack of talent at his position, much like shaq and timmy were from 99-07. the rest of the NBA became full of MJ copycats duking it out among each other, while shaq and timmy were unmatched and winning everything until the celtics created a superteam and the lakers colluded and threw the league out of wack.

Truth bombs throughout this post. Especially the bolded part.

Great post man. Spot on.

[DMC]

The truth is the truth. Jordan might even be Andrew Wiggins in today's NBA :lol

Still ranked above your heroes (all of them) :lol

[DMC]

the talent of the era itself isnt whats weak. its talent at comparable positions. wings were very weak during the time mike dominated. in the mid 80s, about 12 of the top 15 scorers in the league were wing players. by the mid 90s, about 12 of the top 15 were bigs. he rarely had to defend anyone good, and rarely had anyone good defending him. he was a monumental mismatch due to lack of talent at his position, much like shaq and timmy were from 99-07. the rest of the NBA became full of MJ copycats duking it out among each other, while shaq and timmy were unmatched and winning everything until the celtics created a superteam and the lakers colluded and threw the league out of wack.

Your "anyone good" is once again trying to put today's players in Michael's era. The people he played against are all time greats and he had actual big men in the paint unlike these clowns like Embiid who shoot 3's all day.

[DMC]

This how teams in today's NBA would guard Jordan:
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F 8153bf7e-76a4-43d1-bfaa-bd9fd4fa7a01_2474x1578.png

:lol
Dam if those two people on the perimeter had their hands up and were wide open, and there was 8 seconds to shoot in the game, and 3 players were guarding Russ, that would be Kobe who would have shot anyhow and airballed. :lol

[DMC]

:lol Payton not a good defender, best Jordan ever faced and still MJ scored 27pts a game average in the Finals. These clowns today like Matador Harden and KD leaking out before the ball hits the rim. Who are the great defenders of today? Donkey? :lol

[LkrFan]

Still ranked above your heroes (all of them) :lol

Dam if those two people on the perimeter had their hands up and were wide open, and there was 8 seconds to shoot in the game, and 3 players were guarding Russ, that would be Kobe who would have shot anyhow and airballed. :lol

:lol

[DMC]

:lol

Was going to say Kobe couldn't hit the side of a mountain but we know better.

[LkrFan]

:lol Payton not a good defender, best Jordan ever faced and still MJ scored 27pts a game average in the Finals. These clowns today like Matador Harden and KD leaking out before the ball hits the rim. Who are the great defenders of today? Donkey? :lol

:lol

[ambchang]

This like like the argument that Tim did so well because he had 3 HOFers around him, and that Parker and Manu wouldn't be shit without Tim (in the same breath). Take one or the other. Because Mike dominated the league, people try to downplay the level of competition, like they use today's players and game style to call that era weak, yet the top 10 all time is full of those guys and Mike sits at the top.

Some of you think the most recent champion should be on the all time top 10 list, too bad you see Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq and Tim on that list. Tim who's prime was in 2003 and who played against MJ while MJ was in Chicago. Bird who also played against MJ and called him god, and Magic who acknowledged Jordan is the GOAT even if he might prefer Dick Butkus or Bob Griese.

Point wasn't Jordan only succeeded with good talent around him (everyone does), my argument (unsubstantiated and most definitely arguable) is that Jordan requires a very specific type of team makeup to win titles, and that is to have one of the best perimeter defender who can also facilitate by his side (being Pippen), rugged interior rebounder defender (Grant/Rodman) and a bunch of three point shooters (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr) and outside shooting centres (Cartwright, Perdue, Wennington) to win. While the three point shooters and outside shooting bigs are a dime a dozen, and the rugged interior rebounder isn't that hard to find, that Pippen role is extremely unique and hard to find. Where as a player like Duncan/Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem/Kareem can win titles with a bunch of shooters (easy to find) and a high scoring slasher (hard to find but there are many), making them comparatively easy to build around.

I'd say Jordan, based on accolades and narratives, should still be #1, the argument for and against it is much closer than people would think. There are legit arguments on both sides.

[Neo.]

Your "anyone good" is once again trying to put today's players in Michael's era. The people he played against are all time greats and he had actual big men in the paint unlike these clowns like Embiid who shoot 3's all day.

what all time great wing players was he playing against during his championships years?

[Dirks_Finale]

The 3pt shot is not an anomaly in today's game though. It has become an integral part of the fabric of the modern game. Without it, a great player is lesser. With it, a lesser player is greater. Look at Westbrook and his consecutive triple double seasons and everything he's able to do on the court outside of shooting. He's a giant among giants in every aspect of basketball but shooting. And because of that, he's Russell fucking Westbrick, Westbroke. He's a joke of a player who gets laughed at by fans, media, and even opponents.

The value of 3pt shooting for NBA players across the board is immense. It's why a guy like Brook Lopez can be a starting center on a championship contending team well into his 30s while Andre Drummond is stuck signing 1-2 year minimum contracts in his prime 20s.

The player comparison of Jordan to DeMarr DeRozan may seem laughable to some, especially Jordan fanbois, but it actually has more merit than at first glance when you really think about it. Imagine Jordan slowing games down to get in the midpost to shoot fadeaway jumper after fadeaway jumper while opposing teams run and gun hitting three after three. You can't build an offense around a halfcourt set midrange fadeaway jumper in today's game, let alone win. That's why he wouldn't be the best player today. He'd either have to change his game or accept a DeRozan type career.

I think Kawhi is a better comparison. Great midrange game and also excellent defensively. Just as Kawhi made it difficult for the Warriors to hit all those 3's, Jordan would do the same, imho.

[Neo.]

:lmao kawhi making it difficult for the warriors to hit threes, and not the injuries to kd and klay :lmao :lmao :lmao

[DMC]

what all time great wing players was he playing against during his championships years?

That's an arbitrary filter :lol

[lefty]

This like like the argument that Tim did so well because he had 3 HOFers around him, and that Parker and Manu wouldn't be shit without Tim (in the same breath). Take one or the other. Because Mike dominated the league, people try to downplay the level of competition, like they use today's players and game style to call that era weak, yet the top 10 all time is full of those guys and Mike sits at the top.

Some of you think the most recent champion should be on the all time top 10 list, too bad you see Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq and Tim on that list. Tim who's prime was in 2003 and who played against MJ while MJ was in Chicago. Bird who also played against MJ and called him god, and Magic who acknowledged Jordan is the GOAT even if he might prefer Dick Butkus or Bob Griese.

You’re gonna use quotes to prove a point?

ok let’s see how this works

Riley : “if I need a shot to win a game, I take Jordan; if I need a shot to save my life, I take Bird”

Isiah : “if you lock MJ, Bird, Magic and myself in a room, the only one who comes out alive is Bird”

Also Larry Bird himself in the 87 Finals said “ Magic is the best player I’ve ever seen….Unbelievable. I don’t know what to say”

And that was 1 year after he called MJ God which was in 1986


See?

[Neo.]

That's an arbitrary filter :lol

got it. thanks :tu

[TDMVPDPOY]

what all time great wing players was he playing against during his championships years?

this, those fkn turds he played against at his position or those so called jordan stoppers, none of them clowns made any all defensive teams....

[lefty]

this, those fkn turds he played against at his position or those so called jordan stoppers, none of them clowns made any all defensive teams....

:lol The Last Dance trying to sell us the notion that Dan Majerle was a defensive speciast to make Jorpoker and his motivation BS look amazing.

Majerle was a slow footed pylon , just watch the 93 Finals highlights, he was like :

“I love your shoes, Michael, let me allow you to go to the basket, and don’t hesitate if you jeed something else, you can find me standing like a tree on the perimeter “

:lol FFS Majerle got lit up by the corpse of Ricky Pierce in the WCF

[Chris Fall]

I think Kawhi is a better comparison. Great midrange game and also excellent defensively. Just as Kawhi made it difficult for the Warriors to hit all those 3's, Jordan would do the same, imho.

Kawhi is bigger, longer, stronger which gives him advantages at both ends that Michael didn't quite have. But sure. You can use Kawhi as a comp too. That's fine. Despite what some Spurs fans would have argued at the time, still NOT the best player in the league. Maybe a season or two on the peripheral discussion as one of the best players. But not THE best player in the league.

Seems like suggesting Michael wouldn't be the best player today means he'd be a bum. No of course not. He'd still be a great player. Probably a top 5-10 player in the league throughout his prime. Just not concensus best player in the league. A large part of greatness is the winning part. And none of us, arguing either side, could guarantee Michael having the same type of championship success as he did in the 90s. We just can't. It's difficult to build around his game today. It's halfcourt, tempo control, midpost isolation, midrange. It makes less sense for success in an open transitional game with one-third or more shots coming from distance. And if you want to argue he'd have adapted his game, fine. Still no guarantee that him adapting would lead to 4, 5, 6 titles to keep him on top of Mount Rushmore.

I don't deny that Jordan is/was the Goat. Part of that is he took full advantage of his situation. Meaning, he found himself in the right situation at the right time, on a team, with an organization that decided to build around him, give him a supporting cast that fit and helped him put up superstar numbers in an era and in a conference he could dominate for more than half a decade. He gets drafted in today's league, say from the 2012 draft, to the Washington Wizards instead of Brad Beal, playing with young John Wall, Nene, and Martell Webster under Randy Whitman, do we believe in today's game, they build that team around Jordan the same way the mid 80s Bulls did? And that leads to a slew of rings past LeBron and the Warriors over the past decade? Personally not buying it.

In the 90s he dominated other superstars that never won, Charles, Mailman, Ewing, Reggie Miller. You argue it's because Jordan that they didn't win. I say those same superstars had chances in 95, 96, and after Jordan retire in 98. They still didn't win. And the guys that did, Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan didn't face in the playoffs. He had to wait his turn after true championship players Bird, Magic, Isiah were done because he couldn't beat them. And he dominated superstar players who never proved they could ring. All the while, boosting his legend against the likes of Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Byron Russell.

Don't get it twisted. He's the Goat. But some of you act like his balls are platinum plated and his shit never stunk.

[LkrFan]

:lol The Last Dance trying to sell us the notion that Dan Majerle was a defensive speciast to make Jorpoker and his motivation BS look amazing.

Majerle was a slow footed pylon , just watch the 93 Finals highlights, he was like :

“I love your shoes, Michael, let me allow you to go to the basket, and don’t hesitate if you jeed something else, you can find me standing like a tree on the perimeter “

:lol FFS Majerle got lit up by the corpse of Ricky Pierce in the WCF

Truth Social b:lolmbs

[DMC]

You’re gonna use quotes to prove a point?

ok let’s see how this works

Riley : “if I need a shot to win a game, I take Jordan; if I need a shot to save my life, I take Bird”

Isiah : “if you lock MJ, Bird, Magic and myself in a room, the only one who comes out alive is Bird”

Also Larry Bird himself in the 87 Finals said “ Magic is the best player I’ve ever seen….Unbelievable. I don’t know what to say”

And that was 1 year after he called MJ God which was in 1986


See?

What did he say about Ja Morant?

[DMC]

Kawhi is bigger, longer, stronger which gives him advantages at both ends that Michael didn't quite have. But sure. You can use Kawhi as a comp too. That's fine. Despite what some Spurs fans would have argued at the time, still NOT the best player in the league. Maybe a season or two on the peripheral discussion as one of the best players. But not THE best player in the league.

Seems like suggesting Michael wouldn't be the best player today means he'd be a bum. No of course not. He'd still be a great player. Probably a top 5-10 player in the league throughout his prime. Just not concensus best player in the league. A large part of greatness is the winning part. And none of us, arguing either side, could guarantee Michael having the same type of championship success as he did in the 90s. We just can't. It's difficult to build around his game today. It's halfcourt, tempo control, midpost isolation, midrange. It makes less sense for success in an open transitional game with one-third or more shots coming from distance. And if you want to argue he'd have adapted his game, fine. Still no guarantee that him adapting would lead to 4, 5, 6 titles to keep him on top of Mount Rushmore.

I don't deny that Jordan is/was the Goat. Part of that is he took full advantage of his situation. Meaning, he found himself in the right situation at the right time, on a team, with an organization that decided to build around him, give him a supporting cast that fit and helped him put up superstar numbers in an era and in a conference he could dominate for more than half a decade. He gets drafted in today's league, say from the 2012 draft, to the Washington Wizards instead of Brad Beal, playing with young John Wall, Nene, and Martell Webster under Randy Whitman, do we believe in today's game, they build that team around Jordan the same way the mid 80s Bulls did? And that leads to a slew of rings past LeBron and the Warriors over the past decade? Personally not buying it.

In the 90s he dominated other superstars that never won, Charles, Mailman, Ewing, Reggie Miller. You argue it's because Jordan that they didn't win. I say those same superstars had chances in 95, 96, and after Jordan retire in 98. They still didn't win. And the guys that did, Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan didn't face in the playoffs. He had to wait his turn after true championship players Bird, Magic, Isiah were done because he couldn't beat them. And he dominated superstar players who never proved they could ring. All the while, boosting his legend against the likes of Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Byron Russell.

Don't get it twisted. He's the Goat. But some of you act like his balls are platinum plated and his shit never stunk.

How can he be the GOAT if there are better players than him today who never get added to the GOAT conversation?

[Chris Fall]

Because the vast majority of people view winning and more specifically winning championships as a vital and heavily weighted part of the criteria for Goat. That's why you will still hear some basketball old heads argue Bill Russell is still the Goat despite the fact most rational fans will agree his less than stellar offensive talents and the era and competition add perspective to his titles that don't place him at the top.

I will tell you now that I believe Wilt Chamberlain was a more dominant player than Jordan, Bird was probably at least as skilled maybe more skilled than Jordan, and LeBron is probably overall the more talented player than Jordan. But they don't have the same accomplishments, titles and individual awards. I'll go further. I think Tracy McGrady was a more talented player than Michael. But entering his name into a Goat discussion is absurd because he doesn't have the rings, the MVPs, the scoring records, etc. Those tangible accomplishments back up a Goat claim. And a guy like McGrady simply doesn't have any of that.

The word "better" is not only general and vague but subjective. What is better? More talented? More dominant? More skilled? Better stats? More individual awards? I can think LeBron is actually a better basketball player than Jordan but Jordan is still Goat because of the comparison of accomplishments. And any players' accomplishments, especially winning titles, is at least in part credited also to teammates, coaching, organization, among other factors. And that's why I can believe that if Jordan played today in this era, on a different team with different teammates and coaches, that he wouldn't have the same success and thereby not be as great now as he was in the 90s.

[lefty]

There is no GOAT

Sure, great individual players can make the difference in specific situations but there are waaaaaaaay to many criterias
and context matters

- 1st of all. it’s a team sport; the GOAT conversation makes much more sense in individual sports but even then context matters

- different eras

- Rules have an impact, as well as advancement in player development, basketball and scientific knowledge, training etc

- different CBA’s and player rights/ power, culture and mentalities

- the quality of your teammates, your coach, GM matter
Not only that, but the quality of your opposition matters

Just appreciate greatness in every era and forget the goat debate because it’s more complex than you think

Use critical thinking instead of nostalgia and dumb narratives that are cultivated by old heads like on ESPN and FOX

[Dirks_Finale]

You guys always mention Ehlo to try to paint this narrative that Jordan only faced slow white dudes :lol

He faced many good defenders as well like Rodman, Dumars, Anthony Mason, Derek Harper, Bobby Phils etc

Starks gets trashed on this board, but the guy showed a lot of grit and even made an all defensive team in 93.

MJ did demoralize players to the point where I truly believe the contest was over before it even started because he was between their ears. You look at that bully ball era and i think it really existed BECAUSE of MJ's dominance. The Pistons were the one team that really had nice success against the bulls and so the Knicks and Heat adopted a similar style to try and gain a puncher's chance. These circumstances also contribute to his sterling legacy which is damn near impeccable.


Kawhi is bigger, longer, stronger which gives him advantages at both ends that Michael didn't quite have. But sure. You can use Kawhi as a comp too. That's fine. Despite what some Spurs fans would have argued at the time, still NOT the best player in the league. Maybe a season or two on the peripheral discussion as one of the best players. But not THE best player in the league.

Seems like suggesting Michael wouldn't be the best player today means he'd be a bum. No of course not. He'd still be a great player. Probably a top 5-10 player in the league throughout his prime. Just not concensus best player in the league. A large part of greatness is the winning part. And none of us, arguing either side, could guarantee Michael having the same type of championship success as he did in the 90s. We just can't. It's difficult to build around his game today. It's halfcourt, tempo control, midpost isolation, midrange. It makes less sense for success in an open transitional game with one-third or more shots coming from distance. And if you want to argue he'd have adapted his game, fine. Still no guarantee that him adapting would lead to 4, 5, 6 titles to keep him on top of Mount Rushmore.

I don't deny that Jordan is/was the Goat. Part of that is he took full advantage of his situation. Meaning, he found himself in the right situation at the right time, on a team, with an organization that decided to build around him, give him a supporting cast that fit and helped him put up superstar numbers in an era and in a conference he could dominate for more than half a decade. He gets drafted in today's league, say from the 2012 draft, to the Washington Wizards instead of Brad Beal, playing with young John Wall, Nene, and Martell Webster under Randy Whitman, do we believe in today's game, they build that team around Jordan the same way the mid 80s Bulls did? And that leads to a slew of rings past LeBron and the Warriors over the past decade? Personally not buying it.

In the 90s he dominated other superstars that never won, Charles, Mailman, Ewing, Reggie Miller. You argue it's because Jordan that they didn't win. I say those same superstars had chances in 95, 96, and after Jordan retire in 98. They still didn't win. And the guys that did, Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan didn't face in the playoffs. He had to wait his turn after true championship players Bird, Magic, Isiah were done because he couldn't beat them. And he dominated superstar players who never proved they could ring. All the while, boosting his legend against the likes of Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Byron Russell.

Don't get it twisted. He's the Goat. But some of you act like his balls are platinum plated and his shit never stunk.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if winning wasnt part of the equation criteria to be goat and just focusing on stats only, then scrubs in todays league will be in discussion for goat, especially empty stat padders....for example kg

[DMC]

if winning wasnt part of the equation criteria to be goat and just focusing on stats only, then scrubs in todays league will be in discussion for goat, especially empty stat padders....for example kg

Stats can be misleading, but stats on a dynastic team aren't hollow, and I'm not saying he didn't pad, but I don't recall Jordan going for trip dubs and stupid shit in losing games.