Manu Ginobili vs Gilbert Arenas

[JohnnyMax]

After Gilbert's remarks about Manu on his recent podcast, I thought it would be appropriate to make this thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qi_rhbtrS8

[GAustex]

Is Jamal Crawford a HoFer?

[DMC]

Manu's international resume pushes him past Crawford but Crawford wasn't a slouch either. Just because they both came off the bench doesn't mean they are comparable players. Love how people instantly cross out the rings as an argument for someone they want to push down, but bring it up right away for someone they want to lift up. Rings matter, especially since he was part of the big 3.

[FkLA]

He's an idiot. I bet he also thinks that he himself was easily better than Manu.

[spurraider21]

the thought process just seems so wrong... he ultimately boils it down to "who would you take one on one, thats the better player." lets grant his point that crawford is a better one on one player (arguable). why is that the determining factor in a team game? crawford was an isolation scoring specialist. he's going to be a great one on one player. manu's best trait was his ability to orchestrate an offense and pass, which is something that wouldnt show in a one on one situation.

doesnt surprise me that arenas wants to rank players that way, since it probably makes him feel better about himself given that he was also a brilliant one on one scorer in his day.

[GAustex]

Manu will be first ballot HoF
Crawford or Arenas?

[ducks]

Manu put those stats up because he was the 6 man
If he was a starter the whole time his stats would not be as good as they were

He was special because he gave 150 percent on court he knew he could with the minutes he played

[BacktoBasics]

Manu put those stats up because he was the 6 man
If he was a starter the whole time his stats would not be as good as they were

He was special because he gave 150 percent on court he knew he could with the minutes he played
As usual I completely disagree with you. Manu sacrificed statistics when he came off the bench to be everything our team needed him to be. If he started somewhere else he would have had much more glamorous stats and been way more widely talked about throughout his prime.

[rogcl1]

the thought process just seems so wrong... he ultimately boils it down to "who would you take one on one, thats the better player." lets grant his point that crawford is a better one on one player (arguable). why is that the determining factor in a team game? crawford was an isolation scoring specialist. he's going to be a great one on one player. manu's best trait was his ability to orchestrate an offense and pass, which is something that wouldnt show in a one on one situation.

doesnt surprise me that arenas wants to rank players that way, since it probably makes him feel better about himself given that he was also a brilliant one on one scorer in his day.

No. Yes , Manu is far more the better all around player but if he was in the ball hog iso role like Crawford he would be as much or more than Crawford in that regard. Absolutely stupid conversation.

[SPURt]

Arenas argument shows why he never won diddly ding dong. Neither did Crawford for that matter. Sure, Crawford could score better in clear out, one-on-one situations than Manu, but Crawford isn’t towering over Manu in that regard. Literally every other facet of the game of basketball Manu was the better player. Manu is the better defender, passer, intelligence in regards to floor spacing, drawing fouls, scoring in traffic, Manu was the complete player. Manu beating team USA for gold while being clearly the best player on his team shows how he could pull the best out of the players around him.

I feel dumber for feeding into this click bait garbage content lol

[hoopdreams11]

If crawford or sweet lou could play D they might have some rings

[TDMVPDPOY]

if manu was a starter playing starters minutes, his stats would go up...dunno about efficiency, but it still be avg...manu aint no chucker

if u dont wanna talk about championships, why not talk about all nba team awards, allstar teams, olympic or wc medals...oh wait, GA is a wanker

[Proxy]

dumbass shot himself in the foot

[RC_Drunkford]

put Manu on the D'Antoni Rockets and he would be considered better than Harden which he is in fact

[Dejounte]

Damn, I miss watching Manu play. No one like him these days.

[Atl Spur]

Manu was easily a better complete basketball player than GA; Manu was not only skilled but ultra competitive & self driven!

[Dex]

First of all, listening to anything Gilbert Arenas has to say is usually a mistake. That guy is a bonehead if there ever was one.

Secondly, this is where Manu sacrificing his stats and coming off the bench will always hurt his "legacy".

If Manu played for any other team and was a starter and played 35 mins a game, he would be just as highly regarded as Crawford or Arenas or whoever you want to put on the list.

He also would have probably won less rings, and his career would have been half as long with his style of play.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty sure Manu rests easy knowing he contributed to four titles, an Olympic gold medal, and was solidly one third of one of the best trios in NBA history.

[rjv]

gilbert arenas will never sniff the hall of fame; crawford-maybe.

[KingKev]

Damn Agent Zero made 160mm from salary alone plus some Adidas money.

[TimDunkem]

Meh who cares?

[kw780101]

What a brain dead take by Gilbert Arenas. I don't even feel like making any points on why Manu is 100% better.

[jbspurs]

He thinks crossover's makes a better individual player:rollin Zero just want attention.

[exstatic]

What a brain dead take by Gilbert Arenas. I don't even feel like making any points on why Manu is 100% better.

Manu is a better passer, rebounder, defender, 2 point shooter, 3 point shooter. Jamal has the edge on FT shooting and ppg.

[KobesAchilles]

It’s weird how players are so fascinated with one on ones. I mean neither would be able to defend the other in a one on one anyways. I think what Gilbert is trying to say is that Jamal is the greater one on one player who can break down another player without help. But seriously who gives a fuck about that. Basketball isn’t a one on one game.

[rascal]

Arenas argument shows why he never won diddly ding dong. Neither did Crawford for that matter. Sure, Crawford could score better in clear out, one-on-one situations than Manu, but Crawford isn’t towering over Manu in that regard. Literally every other facet of the game of basketball Manu was the better player. Manu is the better defender, passer, intelligence in regards to floor spacing, drawing fouls, scoring in traffic, Manu was the complete player. Manu beating team USA for gold while being clearly the best player on his team shows how he could pull the best out of the players around him.

I feel dumber for feeding into this click bait garbage content lol

You swap Manu for Arenas or Crawford and the Spurs still ring.

[rascal]

The Spurs may have won more titles with Arenas instead of Manu.

[KingKev]

You swap Manu for Arenas or Crawford and the Spurs still ring.

Not that simple but a simple player swap in O3, 05, 07 probably.

[R. DeMurre]

If you look at advanced stats, it's not even remotely close. Crawford had a negative career BPM, an upside down 106/113 career ORtg/DRtg, and a career negative +/- on/off. Manu was a monster in all of those categories. Manu's impact was greater than that of many so-called superstars, and Crawford's impact was exactly what you'd expect for a traditional 6th man. Manu was never a liability on D, but Crawford had 21 seasons in a row where he was. Gilbert Arenas generally has terrible takes on basketball.

[couchman]

These idiots don't understand what winning team basketball is about.
They get lost in their idea of what 1on1 ability is, and forget defense, rebounding, passing, and all of the little dirty work that wins games and titles.
Manu could have been an all time leading scorer if he had focused on that alone, like these fools did. Instead he got rings and immortal glory.

Manu is one of the top 25 playoff VORP performers OF ALL TIME.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career_p.html

He is also top 40 ALL TIME in regular season VORP.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_career.html

Pick any decent advanced metrics for career and it is easy to see why Manu is one of the all time greats.
One last thing. I don't think the Spurs win the 2005 Title if you swap Arenas and Manu. Manu was a beast in that series, not just scoring but rebounding, assists, and steals.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Not that simple but a simple player swap in O3, 05, 07 probably.
Pistons would have 4 championships.
https://sun9-82.userapi.com/impg/pBPdygWPPCNLFFv5lui9SQfY0_SpRm8_HTY9Iw/2E1B7p6r0Ns.jpg?size=1001x281&quality=96&sign=d0413f70142709c2fe095e55dbcceaa4&type=albumhttps://sun9-85.userapi.com/impg/HlvCqTh1Kc8RagkAuZ2km8rQH8bSFmg4o1IZxA/c0fn0VE3wqM.jpg?size=997x350&quality=96&sign=25fd992dbe2eb83b159828cfe64d58f1&type=albumhttps://sun9-66.userapi.com/impg/_2hO6q8e2CF5cKjK-33ZaXEceEm9w4s9hwzwtg/d3Dl1V14Re4.jpg?size=988x424&quality=96&sign=fa6e1ff40410aa1a3cdd07f587d86b55&type=album

[KingKev]

Pistons would have 4 championships.
https://sun9-82.userapi.com/impg/pBPdygWPPCNLFFv5lui9SQfY0_SpRm8_HTY9Iw/2E1B7p6r0Ns.jpg?size=1001x281&quality=96&sign=d0413f70142709c2fe095e55dbcceaa4&type=albumhttps://sun9-85.userapi.com/impg/HlvCqTh1Kc8RagkAuZ2km8rQH8bSFmg4o1IZxA/c0fn0VE3wqM.jpg?size=997x350&quality=96&sign=25fd992dbe2eb83b159828cfe64d58f1&type=albumhttps://sun9-66.userapi.com/impg/_2hO6q8e2CF5cKjK-33ZaXEceEm9w4s9hwzwtg/d3Dl1V14Re4.jpg?size=988x424&quality=96&sign=fa6e1ff40410aa1a3cdd07f587d86b55&type=album


Cue the advanced analytics crew who work in the HR department. What would those players advanced analytics look like for JC, GA playing on those Spurs teams.

I’m not taking anything away from Manu as he is the better player and a two way player.

[DMC]

As usual I completely disagree with you. Manu sacrificed statistics when he came off the bench to be everything our team needed him to be. If he started somewhere else he would have had much more glamorous stats and been way more widely talked about throughout his prime.

Not sure who you're disagreeing with but that wasn't ducks' take, it was copypasta from some sports website.

[DAF86]

Manu put those stats up because he was the 6 man
If he was a starter the whole time his stats would not be as good as they were

He was special because he gave 150 percent on court he knew he could with the minutes he played

Manu played more games as a starter than as a reserve only two years in his career. Both seasons he made the all-star game. Do you think that's coincidence?

[DAF86]

First of all, listening to anything Gilbert Arenas has to say is usually a mistake. That guy is a bonehead if there ever was one.

Secondly, this is where Manu sacrificing his stats and coming off the bench will always hurt his "legacy".

If Manu played for any other team and was a starter and played 35 mins a game, he would be just as highly regarded as Crawford or Arenas or whoever you want to put on the list.

He also would have probably won less rings, and his career would have been half as long with his style of play.

At the end of the day, I'm pretty sure Manu rests easy knowing he contributed to four titles, an Olympic gold medal, and was solidly one third of one of the best trios in NBA history.

You started off well but then made that paragraph. :lol

Manu is already regarded more highly than Arenas and Crawford by anyone with a functional set of eyes and brain. If Manu had the chance of being the number one option on a team he would be placed among the Nowitzkis, Garnetts, etc. In the second group of franchise players just behind the true great ones like Lebron, Duncan, etc. Ahead of lesser franchise players like Iverson, Nash, Kidd, etc.

That's how good Manu really was. Too bad even some Spurs fans don't realize it.

[DAF86]

You swap Manu for Arenas or Crawford and the Spurs still ring.

The Detroit Pistons would like to take that bet.

[DAF86]

Not that simple but a simple player swap in O3, 05, 07 probably.

How the heck are they winning in '05 when Manu was the Spurs best player during that entire playoffs run and they needed every bit of him to outlast the Pistons in 7?

Swap Manu and Crawford in 2005 and the Pistons beat the Spurs in 5 like they did with Kobe and the Lakers the previous year.

[DAF86]

Cue the advanced analytics crew who work in the HR department. What would those players advanced analytics look like for JC, GA playing on those Spurs teams.

I’m not taking anything away from Manu as he is the better player and a two way player.

Probably right about the same, if not worse. That's why they are called "advanced stats". Some of them take into considerstion competition and the team you have around.

If you don't believe me, just go ahead and check the advanced stats of Richard jefferson, LaMarcus Aldridge, DeMar DeRozan and every fringe all-star before and after joining the Spurs.

[Leetonidas]

The Spurs would not win with Areans in Manus place. Lmao at even comparing him to Crawford

[cd98]

It's kind of silly logic of who could beat who one-on-one when it comes to NBA players. Crawford had a great NBA career so no disrespect to him. But I mean two NBA players playing one on one? My guess is that they beat each other many times over. One on one is a different game than a 5 on 5 game and one on one, I would imagine that most NBA greats would just trade baskets.

That said, I think Manu was a better defender and I don't think Crawford could stop Manu drives. But let's be honest, it takes a team defense to stop both of these guys. One on one either of these guys are going to mostly score at will.

[Dex]

You started off well but then made that paragraph. :lol

Manu is already regarded more highly than Arenas and Crawford by anyone with a functional set of eyes and brain. If Manu had the chance of being the number one option on a team he would be placed among the Nowitzkis, Garnetts, etc. In the second group of franchise players just behind the true great ones like Lebron, Duncan, etc. Ahead of lesser franchise players like Iverson, Nash, Kidd, etc.

That's how good Manu really was. Too bad even some Spurs fans don't realize it.

I only brought up Crawford or Arenas because those were the two people brought up in this post.

I love Manu as much as any Spurs fan...I own his jerseys, I went to his retirement ceremony, etc.

I also don't think he would as high as a Nowitzki, Garnett, or Nash even with more opportunity. Just real talk.

[KingKev]

It's kind of silly logic of who could beat who one-on-one when it comes to NBA players. Crawford had a great NBA career so no disrespect to him. But I mean two NBA players playing one on one? My guess is that they beat each other many times over. One on one is a different game than a 5 on 5 game and one on one, I would imagine that most NBA greats would just trade baskets.

That said, I think Manu was a better defender and I don't think Crawford could stop Manu drives. But let's be honest, it takes a team defense to stop both of these guys. One on one either of these guys are going to mostly score at will.

There is also very big difference between the blacktop and the hardtop. Ginobilli is easily the better player between all 3, especially over the course of a career but Gilbert Arenas boneheadedness aside, he was an elite scorer during his prime.

[ambchang]

For some reason, Ginobili has the higher points per 36 mins and points per 100 possessions in his best season than Crawford did, and Crawford's job was to score and do nothing else. Not sure how that better 1 on 1 thing came from.

[cd98]

The player that I would comp with Manu in terms of great player would be Ray Allen. I think Manu could have had a Ray Allen career if he was a starter. Not that they played exactly the same way, but in terms of their stature in the game.

[cd98]

There is also very big difference between the blacktop and the hardtop. Ginobilli is easily the better player between all 3, especially over the course of a career but Gilbert Arenas boneheadedness aside, he was an elite scorer during his prime.

I agree that Gilbert Arenas was a great player, who's career was cut short by a bad injury and getting a gun to shoot a teammate over a gambling debt. But in terms of playing a one on one game, you can be a great scorer, but one on one, so is Manu. It literally would just be great players trading baskets. Who wins? Well they could play ten times and they would split it. I just don't think that tells you who is better. I mean, if the standard is who can score more points in a game, there are a lot of factors, including who the primary scorer is on a team, how the offense is run, the pace, and use of the three point line. Just a lot of variables, but career scoring wise, Manu will get bested by those during the regular season. My guess is that he has scored more points in the playoffs, but then again, he was in the playoffs a lot and the other guys, not nearly as much.

[DAF86]

I only brought up Crawford or Arenas because those were the two people brought up in this post.

I love Manu as much as any Spurs fan...I own his jerseys, I went to his retirement ceremony, etc.

I also don't think he would as high as a Nowitzki, Garnett, or Nash even with more opportunity. Just real talk.

Put Manu on those mid 2000's SSOL Suns and he's Harden before Harden, but being a better leader, more clutch and playing defense.

[heyheymymy]

East was insanely weak back then too and Gilbert still didn't do enough, swap him into the West and you'd see how fools gold Gilbert would be compared to Manu

[weebo]

Kirvy Bryan talking about Manu in Kobe Doin' Work: "That's a bad boy right there. I have so much respect for his game. He's an incredible competitor."
Did Crawlfort ever get that kinda of love?

[Proxy]

How the heck are they winning in '05 when Manu was the Spurs best player during that entire playoffs run and they needed every bit of him to outlast the Pistons in 7?

Swap Manu and Crawford in 2005 and the Pistons beat the Spurs in 5 like they did with Kobe and the Lakers the previous year.

yeah there's no way either swap would cut into that Pistons D like Manu did

[KingKev]

dumbass shot himself in the foot

You sure?

[lefty20]

You sure?

Not in the Plexcio Burres sense. More like he shot his career in the foot by being a fucking idiot.

[CGD]

By this logic Rod Strickland, Stephan Maurbury, and Steve Francis should all be in the HoF just because they were flashy one on one players. Hell throw Sebastian Telfair in there while your at it Gilbert!

Bottom line is you gotta have big balls to get to the HoF. That or have a high scoring average which is the only reason Harden, Melo, and that archetype of empty calorie “star” will get in.

[BacktoBasics]

Not sure who you're disagreeing with but that wasn't ducks' take, it was copypasta from some sports website.

Fuck him anyway

[KingKev]

By this logic Rod Strickland, Stephan Maurbury, and Steve Francis should all be in the HoF just because they were flashy one on one players. Hell throw Sebastian Telfair in there while your at it Gilbert!

Bottom line is you gotta have big balls to get to the HoF. That or have a high scoring average which is the only reason Harden, Melo, and that archetype of empty calorie “star” will get in.


Stephon Marbury.

Point Gods on Showtime just aired. I’m blown away how 75% of this forum has no respect, love, knowledge of the game and definitely were never athletes but still think they know something.

[Proxy]

You sure?

haha, Lefty called it, got him mixed up with Plaxico

[KingKev]

haha, Lefty called it, got him mixed up with Plaxico

Cheddar Bob ass

[benefactor]

Who gives a flying fuck what ducks and rascal think about anything?

[gilmor2002]

This is like comparing Jordan (Manu) vs Morant (Arenas)..

[tmtcsc]

Manu Ginobili was one of the most exciting and competitive players to ever play the game. Top 5 on the Spurs for sure. Gervin, Alvin Robertson, David Robinson, Duncan and Ginobili (In no specific order). All the comparisons of best 6 man stuff is really insulting. I NEVER thought of Manu as a 6th man. The guy could have easily started for any team in the league (maybe should have) - including the Spurs. How many of those dudes he's compared to were on the floor at the end of the game? Probably none. He wasn't just a scorer, he was a playmaker and a winner.

I'd take Manu over a bunch of dudes who started for their teams. D Wade, Michael Finley, James Harden, Westbrook, Kobe, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, all those dudes. Manu was a beast.

[rascal]

How the heck are they winning in '05 when Manu was the Spurs best player during that entire playoffs run and they needed every bit of him to outlast the Pistons in 7?

Swap Manu and Crawford in 2005 and the Pistons beat the Spurs in 5 like they did with Kobe and the Lakers the previous year.

No they don't Duncan was too good.

[rascal]

Manu Ginobili was one of the most exciting and competitive players to ever play the game. Top 5 on the Spurs for sure. Gervin, Alvin Robertson, David Robinson, Duncan and Ginobili (In no specific order). All the comparisons of best 6 man stuff is really insulting. I NEVER thought of Manu as a 6th man. The guy could have easily started for any team in the league (maybe should have) - including the Spurs. How many of those dudes he's compared to were on the floor at the end of the game? Probably none. He wasn't just a scorer, he was a playmaker and a winner.

I'd take Manu over a bunch of dudes who started for their teams. D Wade, Michael Finley, James Harden, Westbrook, Kobe, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry, all those dudes. Manu was a beast.

Wade, Kobe and Curry are clearly better only a homer spur's fan thinks differently. Manu could never be the main top guy on a top NBA team.

[Biggems]

After Gilbert's remarks about Manu on his recent podcast, I thought it would be appropriate to make this thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qi_rhbtrS8

I take Manu over Crawford one on one. Manu was by far the better defender.

[tmtcsc]

Wade, Kobe and Curry are clearly better only a homer spur's fan thinks differently. Manu could never be the main top guy on a top NBA team.

Homer? Nah, I've got eyes. His career may not have lasted as long if he was the main guy, but his stats would've been other level or at the very least on par with those dudes. Curry's the better 3 point shooter, that's it. Kobe was selfish as hell and Wade was always just meh to me. Too small, way too often out of shape.

[tmtcsc]

I take Manu over Crawford one on one. Manu was by far the better defender.

Gilbert Arenas' remarks are as stupid as it gets and that's saying something. Dude is on the same panel with JR Smith. Hey Gilbert, who are you taking? A USA team featuring: Tim Duncan, Lebron James, DWade, Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson, Amare Stoudamire or the one with Manu Ginobili and no other Hall of Famers ? Just stupid. Manu was an Alpha. A killer on the court.

[Em-City]

By this logic Rod Strickland, Stephan Maurbury, and Steve Francis should all be in the HoF just because they were flashy one on one players. Hell throw Sebastian Telfair in there while your at it Gilbert!

Bottom line is you gotta have big balls to get to the HoF. That or have a high scoring average which is the only reason Harden, Melo, and that archetype of empty calorie “star” will get in.


I'd say marbury is a HoF candidate for what he did for basketball in china moreso than his NBA career

[Ice009]

I'd say marbury is a HoF candidate for what he did for basketball in china moreso than his NBA career

Was his China career that good? Why did he move over to China anyway? Did no NBA teams want him at that stage?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Arenas, Crawford, etc. are like those playground basketball 'stars', who like to discuss and boast how they're better than the pros.

Until an actual pro comes and wipes the floor with them.

[Brazil]

I'd take Manu over a bunch of dudes who started for their teams. D Wade, , Kobe, Paul Pierce, Steph Curry, all those dudes. Manu was a beast.

:lol

[lefty]

Both better than Parker ....

[DAF86]

Manu could never be the main top guy on a top NBA team.

That's such a dumb, lazy opinion. DeRozan was the "main top guy" on a 60 wins team in the NBA. Chauncey Billups was the "main top guy" on a champion. Manu would have easily been a succesful franchise player if given the chance.

[RC_Drunkford]

from what I know Manu has been widely recognized as one of the top 5 SGs of all time at the end of his prime

[rascal]

from what I know Manu has been widely recognized as one of the top 5 SGs of all time at the end of his prime

Where is he top 5 regarded? Jordan, Kobe, Gervin, Jerry West, Curry all better

[KingKev]

Where is he top 5 regarded? Jordan, Kobe, Gervin, Jerry West, Curry all better

Jordan and Kobe are a different tier.

I’d argue Ginobilli is at the upper echelon in the next tier of guys like D Wade, Clyde Drexler, Vince, TMac, Gervin, Ray Allen.

[CGD]

Stephon Marbury.

Point Gods on Showtime just aired. I’m blown away how 75% of this forum has no respect, love, knowledge of the game and definitely were never athletes but still think they know something.

I didn't have to be captain of my HS's basketball varsity team to understand that the type of ball played in the NYC cages wasn't NBA champion level ball. Those shimmies and crossovers do look cool, though, so there is that.

[TD 21]

:lmao No one should be surprised by this or entertaining it as a legitimate debate.

Robinson, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker, will always be disrespected by and underrated to the majority of inner city Black Americans, who don't view them or their style as "black enough".



Put Manu on those mid 2000's SSOL Suns and he's Harden before Harden, but being a better leader, more clutch and playing defense.

You always got to go overboard. Harden is one of the greatest regular season offensive players in history and combined an sustained efficiency and mpg/usage load for about a decade that Ginobili and most players almost certainly couldn't have.


Bottom line is you gotta have big balls to get to the HoF. That or have a high scoring average which is the only reason Harden, Melo, and that archetype of empty calorie “star” will get in.

Harden is not an empty calorie star.

[Em-City]

Was his China career that good? Why did he move over to China anyway? Did no NBA teams want him at that stage?
It's more about cultural influence and the redemption journey

[RC_Drunkford]

Where is he top 5 regarded? Jordan, Kobe, Gervin, Jerry West, Curry all better

Curry is a PG as was Jerry West. It was widely said on discussions on TV stations etc. back in the day as far as I remember. People mentioned Jordan, Kobe, Wade and then Manu

[John B]

After Gilbert's remarks about Manu on his recent podcast, I thought it would be appropriate to make this thread.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qi_rhbtrS8

Manu played a 6th because the system demanded him to, and win more games and eventually championships. Manu could very well start on all teams, not just the Spurs, and would have better stats if not playing in an egalitarian style offense. The guy plays 100% on both sides of the court, every-single-night! Neither Jamal nor Lou played defense. Manu is so crafty and tenacious that he could will his team to win. Neither Jamal nor Lou could do that. They could score bunches, but can they win ballgames and especially when it’s on the line. It’s insulting to even make the comparison, and not only because Manu is my all-time favorite player. Timmy is only second. Not Jordan nor Magic nor Bird. It was Manu.

[rastaspur]

Manu put those stats up because he was the 6 man
If he was a starter the whole time his stats would not be as good as they were

He was special because he gave 150 percent on court he knew he could with the minutes he played

Manu could have dropped 25 a game as the main option of a lesser team. Easily. He didn't give a shit about his stats.

He's a first ballot hall and hall of famer. Gilbert and Crawford will never sniff the hof.

End of debate.

And I'd put my money on Manu in a one on one. Crawford can't guard him.

[rascal]

Curry is a PG as was Jerry West. It was widely said on discussions on TV stations etc. back in the day as far as I remember. People mentioned Jordan, Kobe, Wade and then Manu

West was both a pg and sg and considered more a sg.

Manu is in the top 20 on many sites, not even in the top 10. He didn't have high enough stats.

[rascal]

Manu could have dropped 25 a game as the main option of a lesser team. Easily. He didn't give a shit about his stats.

He's a first ballot hall and hall of famer. Gilbert and Crawford will never sniff the hof.

End of debate.

And I'd put my money on Manu in a one on one. Crawford can't guard him.

He's a Hall of Famer mainly based on his international resume, doesn't get anywhere close only on his NBA resume.

[rascal]

Curry is a PG as was Jerry West. It was widely said on discussions on TV stations etc. back in the day as far as I remember. People mentioned Jordan, Kobe, Wade and then Manu

What people mention Manu as 4th?

[DAF86]

You always got to go overboard. Harden is one of the greatest regular season offensive players in history and combined an sustained efficiency and mpg/usage load for about a decade that Ginobili and most players almost certainly couldn't have.

Tell me what could Harden do better than Manu. He wasn't a better slasher. He wasn't more athletic. He wasn't a better shooter. He wasn't a better passer. He wasn't a better defender. He wasn't more clutch. He didn't have more intangibles. What did he have, other than the chance of proving himself as a number one option?

[Em-City]

Tell me what could Harden do better than Manu. He wasn't a better slasher. He wasn't more athletic. He wasn't a better shooter. He wasn't a better passer. He wasn't a better defender. He wasn't more clutch. He didn't have more intangibles. What did he have, other than the chance of proving himself as a number one option?

I'm a Manu guy but I'd say harden is the better shooter

[DAF86]

I'm a Manu guy but I'd say harden is the better shooter

Statistically, he isn't.

[TD 21]

Tell me what could Harden do better than Manu. He wasn't a better slasher. He wasn't more athletic. He wasn't a better shooter. He wasn't a better passer. He wasn't a better defender. He wasn't more clutch. He didn't have more intangibles. What did he have, other than the chance of proving himself as a number one option?

You like to selectively utilize advanced stats. When they support your argument (or at least you believe them to, like "Poeltl is a top 10 center"), they're the gospel. When they don't, suddenly they don't matter nearly as much.

:lmao At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

[KingKev]

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/first-nft-featuring-spurs-legend-manu-ginobili-has-been-released-nba-san-antonio/273-d5b020ab-7047-405c-8b50-7236e77fea0f

Arenas pulling the strap on his teammate would make a legendary NFT though.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

:lmao At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

dude this is settled science

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/05/10/sports/10NBAfinal/10NBAfinal-superJumbo.jpg

[RC_Drunkford]

You like to selectively utilize advanced stats. When they support your argument (or at least you believe them to, like "Poeltl is a top 10 center"), they're the gospel. When they don't, suddenly they don't matter nearly as much.

:lmao At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

yet your only argument for "Davis is better than Aldridge" was general consensus and your "supreme basketball knowledge" :lmao :lmao so you don't have any as I expected

[TD 21]

yet your only argument for "Davis is better than Aldridge" was general consensus and your "supreme basketball knowledge" :lmao :lmao so you don't have any as I expected

You forgot advanced stats.

:lmao Results without context and Aldridge better than Davis, yet having the audacity to ask for reasons to the contrary.

[DAF86]

You like to selectively utilize advanced stats. When they support your argument (or at least you believe them to, like "Poeltl is a top 10 center"), they're the gospel. When they don't, suddenly they don't matter nearly as much.

:lmao At this board. From "Aldridge is better than Davis" (not saying you said it, so relax) to "Ginobili is better than Harden" in less than a week.

Don't know what you're talking about but I've always used advanced stats in a context.

Just because Harden got the chance to play on a gimmicky offense that allowed him to stat pad like no other player in history, it doesn't mean I'm going to automatically put him above any player with lesser advanced stats. For example, I'm not going to put him over Duncan just because Harden has a higher BPM.

On the same sense, if Manu and Harden reversed roles, Harden would have stayed forever a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook, and Manu would have went to be the number one guy on Dantoni's system, who do you think would have the better advanced stats?

Also, Manu's advanced stats are compromised from playing like 7 or 8 season well past his prime. Let's wait 'till Harden retires to see if his advanced stats remain as good as now.

[TD 21]

Don't know what you're talking about but I've always used advanced stats in a context.

Just because Harden got the chance to play on a gimmicky offense that allowed him to stat pad like no other player in history, it doesn't mean I'm going to automatically put him above any player with lesser advanced stats. For example, I'm not going to put him over Duncan just because Harden has a higher BPM.

On the same sense, if Manu and Harden reversed roles, Harden would have stayed forever a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook, and Manu would have went to be the number one guy on Dantoni's system, who do you think would have the better advanced stats?

Also, Manu's advanced stats are compromised from playing like 7 or 8 season well past his prime. Let's wait 'till Harden retires to see if his advanced stats remain as good as now.

I said selectively, not context.

Harden's regular season offensive peak/advanced stats were insane. Of course they're aided in part by him/the Rockets taking the math to the extreme (which is the main reason why I think it's difficult to compare the Duncan/O'Neal era to the James era), but still.

He carried a mpg/usage role that Ginobili likely couldn't have and mostly did so without so much as a Parker, let alone Duncan, which makes it all the more impressive.

[rascal]

Harden is better offensively.

Manu had his moments of high offensive play but was very inconsistent overall.

[DAF86]

He carried a mpg/usage role that Ginobili likely couldn't have

This is the only argument folks can come up against Manu being on the same tier with these guys: the unproven notion that Manu can't carry the workload of a number one option. Because they know Manu has all the rest: skill, leadership, intangibles, clutchness.

Either way, is weird that you of all people bring this up as a parameter to determine which player is better when you have been so outspoken in favour of Anthony Davis. A guy we all know can definitely not carry that load (or any type of load apparently).


and mostly did so without so much as a Parker, let alone Duncan, which makes it all the more impressive.

Not having those kind of guys as teammates actually works in your favour when it comes to advanced stats. When you aren't on the court there's nobody that can make up for your contribution, therefore your impact stats will tend to be even better.

[TD 21]

This is the only argument folks can come up against Manu being on the same tier with these guys: the unproven notion that Manu can't carry the workload of a number one option. Because they know Manu has all the rest: skill, leadership, intangibles, clutchness.

Either way, is weird that you of all people bring this up as a parameter to determine which player is better when you have been so outspoken in favour of Anthony Davis. A guy we all know can definitely not carry that load (or any type of load apparently).



Not having those kind of guys as teammates actually works in your favour when it comes to advanced stats. When you aren't on the court there's nobody that can make up for your contribution, therefore your impact stats will tend to be even better.

Ginobili is not in the same class as Harden by advanced metrics, the ones you like to allude to long as they support your argument at the time.

Except I didn't say it was a parameter in a general sense and clearly meant it more so as another point in Harden's favor over Ginobili. Also, Davis generally plays 34-36 mpg and about 60+ games per season, so this isn't Scumbag who needed to be babied throughout his 20s.

No, it doesn't. It's rare that efficiency improves with greater mpg/usage and lesser surrounding talent.

[DAF86]

Ginobili is not in the same class as Harden by advanced metrics, the ones you like to allude to long as they support your argument at the time.

For the difference in roles they have had and the fact that Manu's stats are hampered by so many non-prime years, they actually are pretty much on the same class. Just to name an example, Manu is a lot closer to Harden, than Reggie Miller (a top 75 player of all time, and someone most casual NBA fans would rank ahead of Manu) is to Ginobili.


Except I didn't say it was a parameter in a general sense and clearly meant it more so as another point in Harden's favor over Ginobili. Also, Davis generally plays 34-36 mpg and about 60+ games per season, so this isn't Scumbag who needed to be babied throughout his 20s.

Another point in favour of Harden over Ginobili? What are those "other points"? I asked you what could Harden do better than Ginobili and you couldn't answer.


No, it doesn't. It's rare that efficiency improves with greater mpg/usage and lesser surrounding talent.

Efficiency might not improve, but impact does. It is why Jokic has been a beast on this regard the last couple of years without Murray. Manu's best statistical season in terms of advanced metrics is the year where he played the most minutes and Tim and Tony missed some time.

[The Truth #6]

Longevity vs prime. That’s another debate, and I think longevity trumps a brief prime window typically, and to me that favors Manu.

Ginobili is a winner. Harden is a regular season statistical gem, I’ll admit, but a loser overall. He had refs benefitting him egregiously, so much that the NBA had to correct course from making the game look so pathetic, in my opinion.

[R. DeMurre]

The advanced stats of Manu vs Harden are not that far apart. Harden's peak BPM and VORP are higher than Manu's, but Manu's career +/- on/off per 100 is higher than Harden's, his peak seasons for that stat are far better, and that includes his years from age 35-40. Harden is already showing signs of dropping off at age 32, and Manu's impact stats at age 32 were better than his. If you take away Manu's BPM numbers from ages 35-40, he and Harden are nearly identical. But beyond that, I'd say are the intangibles. Ginobili never had a single beef with another player in his career as far as I know. Harden had trouble getting along with Chris Paul, with Westbrook, with Dwight Howard, with Kyrie, with Durant etc., etc., plus he had the reputation as one of the NBA's most uninterested defenders and biggest partiers... Manu was the consummate teammate and pro his entire career. Harden has contributed to team disharmony at some point everywhere he has gone. Manu never did that.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

[TD 21]

For the difference in roles they have had and the fact that Manu's stats are hampered by so many non-prime years, they actually are pretty much on the same class. Just to name an example, Manu is a lot closer to Harden, than Reggie Miller (a top 75 player of all time, and someone most casual NBA fans would rank ahead of Manu) is to Ginobili.



Another point in favour of Harden over Ginobili? What are those "other points"? I asked you what could Harden do better than Ginobili and you couldn't answer.



Efficiency might not improve, but impact does. It is why Jokic has been a beast on this regard the last couple of years without Murray. Manu's best statistical season in terms of advanced metrics is the year where he played the most minutes and Tim and Tony missed some time.


No, they're not. As usual you can't be objective when it comes to Ginobili. Harden was a perennial top 5 regular season player in his prime, while Ginobili only had a few seasons where he could have been considered top 10ish. I agree he's clearly better than someone like Miller though.

The fact that Harden is a a greater generator of offense and not just in volume (TS%, AST%, etc.). You thinking this is a legit debate is absurd even for you.

Not necessarily. Generally counting stats do and they fool casuals in the process.

[DAF86]

No, they're not. As usual you can't be objective when it comes to Ginobili. Harden was a perennial top 5 regular season player in his prime, while Ginobili only had a few seasons where he could have been considered top 10ish. I agree he's clearly better than someone like Miller though.

Do you think Harden would have reached those peaks if he stayed a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook? Dumbasses would probably still be saying Westbrook is better.

Is it really that hard for you to vizualize how Manu could have done similar to Harden if he had went to become a number one option on another team, specially under a coach like D'antoni? Sure, Manu probably wouldn't have averaged a 37 ppg/10 apg season. He's too smart to ball hog like. But he could have easily averaged 25, 7 and 7 while making folks around him much better and saving himself for the playoffs.


The fact that Harden is a a greater generator of offense and not just in volume (TS%, AST%, etc.). You thinking this is a legit debate is absurd even for you.

Again, all part of the system. It's obvious that your AST% will be higher than the norm when the entire offense revolves around you dribling the air of the ball 90% of the time. When you have other playmakers on your team, you won't hog most of the assists.

Same thing with TS%. When you are told to shoot as many 3's as you like and you are a good free throw creator (as was also Manu) you will tend to have a higher TS% the more chances you get to hog the ball.


Not necessarily. Generally counting stats do and they fool casuals in the process.

Not necessarily, but most times. Specially if the player is good. Manu was that good as to increase his metrics when he was asked to do more. The stats prove it.

It's really your problem, not mine, that you can't realize just how good a player Manu actually was, after seeing him play for so long.

[TD 21]

Do you think Harden would have reached those peaks if he stayed a 6th man behind Durant and Westbrook? Dumbasses would probably still be saying Westbrook is better.

Is it really that hard for you to vizualize how Manu could have done similar to Harden if he had went to become a number one option on another team, specially under a coach like D'antoni? Sure, Manu probably wouldn't have averaged a 37 ppg/10 apg season. He's too smart to ball hog like. But he could have easily averaged 25, 7 and 7 while making folks around him much better and saving himself for the playoffs.



Again, all part of the system. It's obvious that your AST% will be higher than the norm when the entire offense revolves around you dribling the air of the ball 90% of the time. When you have other playmakers on your team, you won't hog most of the assists.

Same thing with TS%. When you are told to shoot as many 3's as you like and you are a good free throw creator (as was also Manu) you will tend to have a higher TS% the more chances you get to hog the ball.



Not necessarily, but most times. Specially if the player is good. Manu was that good as to increase his metrics when he was asked to do more. The stats prove it.

It's really your problem, not mine, that you can't realize just how good a player Manu actually was, after seeing him play for so long.

I think they both ended up in the appropriate role. Having 3 young, high usage perimeter superstars in the making was never going to last with the Thunder, while Ginobili, for much of his prime, got to be something like a co first option (all of the big 3 were).

Of course Ginobili could have beefed up his counting stats, but no, I don't think he could have done what Harden did. Probably no one in the league could have (even the few who were better), especially his latter Rockets years when they mostly did away with the p-n-r and went straight ISO.

Except Harden was the "system" and that's irrelevant to assist % (it's not assists per game).

You can spin and take shots at him all you want, the fact remains he was inarguably a greater generator of offense.

I realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, I'm just not a blind homer like you.

[DAF86]

Except Harden was the "system"

Just like Manu would have been the system under that same team philosophy and roster construction. Manu could do anything that Harden does and then some. Seriously, tell me one thing, ONE, that Harden did that Manu couldn't. Off the drible, step back threes? Got it. Draw fouls? The original "flopper". Pass the ball? Even better than Harden. Attack the basket? Ditto. The only difference is that Harden had the freedom to ball hog as much as he wanted and Manu had to share it with two fellow hall of famers. Go check Harden's advanced stats when he had to share the rock and tell me how good they were.


and that's irrelevant to assist % (it's not assists per game).

I know what AST% is. It is the % of assists you get from your team. How in the fuck being the only playamker of your team is irrelevant to AST%? If you have no other playmaker on your team you will have a higher AST% than a guy that has to share it with two other playmakers. That doesn't necessarily mean you are the better "offense genrator", though. It just means you have the ball in your hands a hell of a lot more.


You can spin and take shots at him all you want, the fact remains he was inarguably a greater generator of offense.

I realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, I'm just not a blind homer like you.

If you realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, then you are overrating the fuck out of Harden and the inflated regular season stats he was able to put up under a system that gave him the loosest of reigns. Again, just go and check how Harden does everytime he's matched with a fellow star.

[TD 21]

Just like Manu would have been the system under that same team philosophy and roster construction. Manu could do anything that Harden does and then some. Seriously, tell me one thing, ONE, that Harden did that Manu couldn't. Off the drible, step back threes? Got it. Draw fouls? The original "flopper". Pass the ball? Even better than Harden. Attack the basket? Ditto. The only difference is that Harden had the freedom to ball hog as much as he wanted and Manu had to share it with two fellow hall of famers. Go check Harden's advanced stats when he had to share the rock and tell me how good they were.



I know what AST% is. It is the % of assists you get from your team. How in the fuck being the only playamker of your team is irrelevant to AST%? If you have no other playmaker on your team you will have a higher AST% than a guy that has to share it with two other playmakers. That doesn't necessarily mean you are the better "offense genrator", though. It just means you have the ball in your hands a hell of a lot more.



If you realize exactly how good a player Ginobili was, then you are overrating the fuck out of Harden and the inflated regular season stats he was able to put up under a system that gave him the loosest of reigns. Again, just go and check how Harden does everytime he's matched with a fellow star.

He was pre and post prime. When he was in his prime, he was an MVP caliber player; Ginobili wasn't and there was never an indication he could have been in a bigger role.

Assist % = estimate of the % of team field goals a player assisted while on the floor. Doesn't necessarily make one an elite play maker (see Westbrook and Murray), but in this case they were both were, only one did it to a higher degree.

Nah, you're just underrating him by allowing bias to cloud your judgement. The reality is, if Ginobili were better than Harden, the Spurs would definitely have more than 5 championships.

[DAF86]

He was pre and post prime. When he was in his prime, he was an MVP caliber player; Ginobili wasn't and there was never an indication he could have been in a bigger role.

How very convinient that his prime only lasted the specific period of time where he could take as many shots as he wanted.


Assist % = estimate of the % of team field goals a player assisted while on the floor. Doesn't necessarily make one an elite play maker (see Westbrook and Murray), but in this case they were both were, only one did it to a higher degree.

I think I was giving you too much credit up to this point because it's not possible that you can't comprehend such a basic principle.

Let's try it one more time, if you still don't get it I was definitely giving you more credit than you deserve.

A basketball team has 5 players on the court at any given time. When you share a lineup with a bunch of role players just waiting for you to pass it to them so they can shoot it, your AST% will inevitably tend to get inflated.

Now, if you are in a lineup with 2 other playmakers that share offense creation responsabilities with you, your AST% will obviously be lower because you aren't the only guy creating offense out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are a lesser "ofense creator", it just means you can't have the ball in your hands all of the time.

After leaving the Warriors, Durant upped his AST%, does that mean that he suddenly became a better "offense creator" or that, as the Nets weren't as stacked as the Warriors, he just had the ball in his hands more?


Nah, you're just underrating him by allowing bias to cloud your judgement. The reality is, if Ginobili were better than Harden, the Spurs would definitely have more than 5 championships.

Now this is the most retarded shit I've read/heard in a long time. Even more retarded than what Arenas said. So, you are telling me that the guy that played with 2 fellow MVP's and couldn't win shit; the guy that got an MVP to join his team and couldn't win shit, the guy that demanded a trade to join the MVP he previously played with and another hall of famer and still couldn't win shit, the guy that is known for checking out when not getting his way and coming up short in the most important of times, that guy would have helped the Spurs win more than Manu did? :lol

The 90's Bulls only got 6, the Warriors only got 4, Shaq and Kobe only won 3, but one of the biggest losers of all-time, a guy that has a reputation for choking in the playoffs was going to help his team win more than all those dynasties? :lol

[Slippy]

He was pre and post prime. When he was in his prime, he was an MVP caliber player; Ginobili wasn't and there was never an indication he could have been in a bigger role.

Assist % = estimate of the % of team field goals a player assisted while on the floor. Doesn't necessarily make one an elite play maker (see Westbrook and Murray), but in this case they were both were, only one did it to a higher degree.

Nah, you're just underrating him by allowing bias to cloud your judgement. The reality is, if Ginobili were better than Harden, the Spurs would definitely have more than 5 championships.

This is an odd statement . Your reality exists
through selective words.

Thats like me saying spurs would only have 1 championship if they had Harden instead of Manu. Numbers are overrated.

Its the impact they have on both ends while blending in with your teammates. There are intangibles that cant be measured by numbers and are a big reason why teams win titles.

Manu the competitor easily surpasses.

[rjv]

harden's game, to me, has always been overrated. he hogs the ball for most of a shot clock, plays crappy defense and shrinks in the bright lights. none of that shows up in stats but i guarantee it shows up in the win/loss column. and if a picture says a thousand words:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvgescSSpx49L3Z_A9YXiyF6Gr1bwSD pUqNunp5lEmymRZzom7LKqHXRryBMl6w53z7jU&usqp=CAU

[rjv]

How very convinient that his prime only lasted the specific period of time where he could take as many shots as he wanted.



I think I was giving you too much credit up to this point because it's not possible that you can't comprehend such a basic principle.

Let's try it one more time, if you still don't get it I was definitely giving you more credit than you deserve.

A basketball team has 5 players on the court at any given time. When you share a lineup with a bunch of role players just waiting for you to pass it to them so they can shoot it, your AST% will inevitably tend to get inflated.

Now, if you are in a lineup with 2 other playmakers that share offense creation responsabilities with you, your AST% will obviously be lower because you aren't the only guy creating offense out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are a lesser "ofense creator", it just means you can't have the ball in your hands all of the time.

After leaving the Warriors, Durant upped his AST%, does that mean that he suddenly became a better "offense creator" or that, as the Nets weren't as stacked as the Warriors, he just had the ball in his hands more?



Now this is the most retarded shit I've read/heard in a long time. Even more retarded than what Arenas said. So, you are telling me that the guy that played with 2 fellow MVP's and couldn't win shit; the guy that got an MVP to join his team and couldn't win shit, the guy that demanded a trade to join the MVP he previously played with and another hall of famer and still couldn't win shit, the guy that is known for checking out when not getting his way and coming up short in the most important of times, that guy would have helped the Spurs win more than Manu did? :lol

The 90's Bulls only got 6, the Warriors only got 4, Shaq and Kobe only won 3, but one of the biggest losers of all-time, a guy that has a reputation for choking in the playoffs was going to help his team win more than all those dynasties? :lol

https://tenor.com/view/goodstuff-damn-good-stuff-tom-hiddleston-gif-5045002.gif

[LkrFan]

Is Jamal Crawford a HoFer?
Manu








Jamal Crawford

Any questions?

[LkrFan]

I clown on here all the time but Manu was the truth. That MFer didn't discriminate either. Anybody could get that work. Just ask Jim and 2004 Olympic team :lol

[TD 21]

How very convinient that his prime only lasted the specific period of time where he could take as many shots as he wanted.



I think I was giving you too much credit up to this point because it's not possible that you can't comprehend such a basic principle.

Let's try it one more time, if you still don't get it I was definitely giving you more credit than you deserve.

A basketball team has 5 players on the court at any given time. When you share a lineup with a bunch of role players just waiting for you to pass it to them so they can shoot it, your AST% will inevitably tend to get inflated.

Now, if you are in a lineup with 2 other playmakers that share offense creation responsabilities with you, your AST% will obviously be lower because you aren't the only guy creating offense out there. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are a lesser "ofense creator", it just means you can't have the ball in your hands all of the time.

After leaving the Warriors, Durant upped his AST%, does that mean that he suddenly became a better "offense creator" or that, as the Nets weren't as stacked as the Warriors, he just had the ball in his hands more?



Now this is the most retarded shit I've read/heard in a long time. Even more retarded than what Arenas said. So, you are telling me that the guy that played with 2 fellow MVP's and couldn't win shit; the guy that got an MVP to join his team and couldn't win shit, the guy that demanded a trade to join the MVP he previously played with and another hall of famer and still couldn't win shit, the guy that is known for checking out when not getting his way and coming up short in the most important of times, that guy would have helped the Spurs win more than Manu did? :lol

The 90's Bulls only got 6, the Warriors only got 4, Shaq and Kobe only won 3, but one of the biggest losers of all-time, a guy that has a reputation for choking in the playoffs was going to help his team win more than all those dynasties? :lol

So he should have been in his prime from ages 20-22?

You can keep spinning, crying and taking shots all you want, the bottom line is Harden is inarguably a better player and if you said Ginobili were better on any non Spurs forum on the internet, you'd be laughed out of the place.



This is an odd statement . Your reality exists
through selective words.

Thats like me saying spurs would only have 1 championship if they had Harden instead of Manu. Numbers are overrated.

Its the impact they have on both ends while blending in with your teammates. There are intangibles that cant be measured by numbers and are a big reason why teams win titles.

Manu the competitor easily surpasses.

Unsurprisingly, the point went over both of your heads. I'm not arguing intangibles or Harden's playoff performance, I'm saying, Ginobili stays the same except for getting the talent/durability boost of prime Harden tacked on, I'd like their chances of winning more than 5 with 2 MVP caliber players who would have complemented one another well, plus a third All-Star.

[diego]

i dont feel like getting into the stat debates... but can anyone remember a game like this one from harden, aren:lols or crawf:lolrd?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD7R1TOwNBc

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504300DEN.html

[DAF86]

So he should have been in his prime from ages 20-22?

Should he be out of it at age 31?


You can keep spinning, crying and taking shots all you want, the bottom line is Harden is inarguably a better player and if you said Ginobili were better on any non Spurs forum on the internet, you'd be laughed out of the place.

Can you answer this question with honesty: If Harden would have stayed on OKC as the 6th man, and Manu would have went to another team to be the number one option, who do you think would have the better stats now (both raw and advanced) and would be seen as the better player?


Unsurprisingly, the point went over both of your heads. I'm not arguing intangibles or Harden's playoff performance, I'm saying, Ginobili stays the same except for getting the talent/durability boost of prime Harden tacked on, I'd like their chances of winning more than 5 with 2 MVP caliber players who would have complemented one another well, plus a third All-Star.

No, the one that doesn't seem to get it is you. The only reason Harden got to prove he was an MVP level player is because he went to another team to be a number one option, if he played with Duncan all his career you wouldn't be saying James is an MVP caliber player. Just like you don't say Ginobili is an MVP caliber player now.

[The Truth #6]

Manu’s prime was affected by a bad ankle that took awhile to get right iirc. I mean, Curry’s early years were worse until he got his ankle right. What’s weird about Harden is not injury but borderline obesity and an unwillingness to adapt to rule changes that no longer benefit him. Harden has more durability and better luck with his Houston situation. As Harden sticks around and begins to fade quickly, his shine will dull, and the argument for Manu should improve for casual fans. I mean, Harden is on his way to being a Ben Simmons joke the way his career has started to precipitously nosedive.

[TD 21]

Should he be out of it at age 31?



Can you answer this question with honesty: If Harden would have stayed on OKC as the 6th man, and Manu would have went to another team to be the number one option, who do you think would have the better stats now (both raw and advanced) and would be seen as the better player?



No, the one that doesn't seem to get it is you. The only reason Harden got to prove he was an MVP level player is because he went to another team to be a number one option, if he played with Duncan all his career you wouldn't be saying James is an MVP caliber player. Just like you don't say Ginobili is an MVP caliber player now.

People exit it at different times for different reasons, but I've never understood why in this sport if you're a good-great prospect you're expected to be immediately in your prime and there's little context provided to team wide results.

I already did, you just can't handle the answer because you're a shameless fanboy. I never could stand Bryant and would argue McGrady, Wade and Harden all peaked higher, but you don't see me ranking them ahead of him because of what might have happened had X, Y and Z been different.

Nah, as usual it's you. You can absolutely have multiple MVP caliber players, we've seen it many times and given the contrast in styles and age, there'd have been ample opportunity for Harden to emerge as such alongside Duncan.

[DAF86]

People exit it at different times for different reasons, but I've never understood why in this sport if you're a good-great prospect you're expected to be immediately in your prime and there's little context provided to team wide results.

I already did, you just can't handle the answer because you're a shameless fanboy. I never could stand Bryant and would argue McGrady, Wade and Harden all peaked higher, but you don't see me ranking them ahead of him because of what might have happened had X, Y and Z been different.

Nah, as usual it's you. You can absolutely have multiple MVP caliber players, we've seen it many times and given the contrast in styles and age, there'd have been ample opportunity for Harden to emerge as such alongside Duncan.

Where?

[DAF86]

I never could stand Bryant and would argue McGrady, Wade and Harden all peaked higher, but you don't see me ranking them ahead of him because of what might have happened had X, Y and Z been different.

Not at all comparable. All those guys had the chance of getting undisputed number one touches. So there are no hypotheticals there. We never saw Manu as the undisputed number one option of an NBA team.

[DAF86]

Nah, as usual it's you. You can absolutely have multiple MVP caliber players, we've seen it many times and given the contrast in styles and age, there'd have been ample opportunity for Harden to emerge as such alongside Duncan.

As usual, you don't adress my point, but since you brought it up, tell me how many teammates won MVP while being on the same team.

Of course a team can have multiple MVP caliber players at the same time, in fact many (if not most) championship teams in history have had multiple MVP caliber players, specially dinasties. That's exactly why they dominate.

[TD 21]

Where?

Various times I alluded to it, but specifically here: but no, I don't think he could have done what Harden did. Probably no one in the league could have (even the few who were better), especially his latter Rockets years when they mostly did away with the p-n-r and went straight ISO.



Not at all comparable. All those guys had the chance of getting undisputed number one touches. So there are no hypotheticals there. We never saw Manu as the undisputed number one option of an NBA team.

I can't decipher whether you're being intentionally obtuse or you're really this dense. I'm saying, I'm able to view things objectively and injuries derailed all of their primes.



As usual, you don't adress my point, but since you brought it up, tell me how many teammates won MVP while being on the same team.

Of course a team can have multiple MVP caliber players at the same time, in fact many (if not most) championship teams in history have had multiple MVP caliber players, specially dinasties. That's exactly why they dominate.

I did, you just don't like the non homer answers. You don't have to actually win the award to be MVP caliber fool.

[DAF86]

Various times I alluded to it, but specifically here: but no, I don't think he could have done what Harden did. Probably no one in the league could have (even the few who were better), especially his latter Rockets years when they mostly did away with the p-n-r and went straight ISO.

That's not what I asked, yet I'm the obtuse one. :lol

Yeah, no shit Manu wouldn't have averaged 37 and 10 in a season. He's too smart for that.

What I asked you is who do you think would be seen as the better player now if Harden would have stayed all his career as a 6th man in OKC and Manu would have went to become a number one option somewhere.


I can't decipher whether you're being intentionally obtuse or you're really this dense. I'm saying, I'm able to view things objectively and injuries derailed all of their primes.

That seems to be a common theme for you, tbh.


I did, you just don't like the non homer answers. You don't have to actually win the award to be MVP caliber fool.

Of course, and I ackowledged that in the exact post you quoted. The problem is that when that happens some folks don't seem able to DECIPHER when a player is MVP caliber just taking a backseat in favour of the team.

[TD 21]

That's not what I asked, yet I'm the obtuse one. :lol

Yeah, no shit Manu wouldn't have averaged 37 and 10 in a season. He's too smart for that.

What I asked you is who do you think would be seen as the better player now if Harden would have stayed all his career as a 6th man in OKC and Manu would have went to become a number one option somewhere.



That seems to be a common theme for you, tbh.



Of course, and I ackowledged that in the exact post you quoted. The problem is that when that happens some folks don't seem able to DECIPHER when a player is MVP caliber just taking a backseat in favour of the team.

By that logic we could play that game with every athlete in history.

No matter how hard you try to spin this, Harden was the better player and is rightly widely regarded as such.

Ginobili was not a an MVP caliber player and it wasn't because of the role he was in. I agree he's underrated by non Spurs fans/analytic types, but you overrate him.

[DAF86]

By that logic we could play that game with every athlete in history.

No matter how hard you try to spin this, Harden was the better player and is rightly widely regarded as such.

Ginobili was not a an MVP caliber player and it wasn't because of the role he was in. I agree he's underrated by non Spurs fans/analytic types, but you overrate him.

Nah bro, you underrate him. I guess Westbrook was a better player than Manu too. Since not only he was an MVP caliber player, he was actually an MVP winner.

[TD 21]

Nah bro, you underrate him. I guess Westbrook was a better player than Manu too. Since not only he was an MVP caliber player, he was actually an MVP winner.

:lmao Based off of thinking (like any non homer would) that he wasn't as good as a player who was a perennial MVP/All-NBA 1st team candidate for nearly a decade. How dare I.

[DAF86]

:lmao Based off of thinking (like any non homer would) that he wasn't as good as a player who was a perennial MVP/All-NBA 1st team candidate for nearly a decade. How dare I.

So you are telling me you take Westbrook over Manu?

[TD 21]

So you are telling me you take Westbrook over Manu?

More spin. I said it was bizarre to act like it's absurd that I'd take that caliber of player over Ginobili, but despite winning one, Westbrook wasn't on the same level as Harden.

[DAF86]

More spin. I said it was bizarre to act like it's absurd that I'd take that caliber of player over Ginobili, but despite winning one, Westbrook wasn't on the same level as Harden.

Why so much beating around the bush to answer a simple question? :lol

You said Manu Ginobili isn't an MVP caliber player, Westbrook won MVP. Adding 2 + 2 I must infer that you think Westbrook is clearly the better player. Is this correct?

[TD 21]

Why so much beating around the bush to answer a simple question? :lol

You said Manu Ginobili isn't an MVP caliber player, Westbrook won MVP. Adding 2 + 2 I must infer that you think Westbrook is clearly the better player. Is this correct?

Yeah, I didn't say I'd automatically take every player who won an MVP over Ginobili.

[DAF86]

Yeah, I didn't say I'd automatically take every player who won an MVP over Ginobili.

Why bring the "MVP caliber" argument then? :lol

[TD 21]

Why bring the "MVP caliber" argument then? :lol

Like I said, you were acting like it was absurd that I found Harden better than Ginobili (when any non homer would), despite his being that caliber of player.

Whatever you think of him, let's not act like he's chopped liver.

[DAF86]

Like I said, you were acting like it was absurd that I found Harden better than Ginobili (when any non homer would), despite his being that caliber of player.

Whatever you think of him, let's not act like he's chopped liver.

Where did I do that?

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

dude this is settled science

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/05/10/sports/10NBAfinal/10NBAfinal-superJumbo.jpg

[Barfunk]

Sigh. Sometimes, there are things in life that just make you want to pull out your hair. Some people just don't get it.

[Barfunk]

Gino all day everyday and 4 times on Sunday.

[Mr. Body]

Arenas is a baller type. That he goes to one-on-ones just shows why he never won shit in the NBA.

Jamal Crawford is a good dude with a great career. He'd be embarrassed by this take.

There's not a single year Crawford didn't have a negative DBPM. Not a single one. He was straight up a poor defender. Manu wasn't. Manu at his peak was one of the best SGs in the league, Crawford never was. Crawford's playoff numbers dipped badly over his regular season production; Manu's generally didn't -- had bad series here or there, but very good ones, and probably deserved the 2005 Finals MVP.

Playing 300 fewer games, Manu has a WS of 106.5 and a WS/48 of .190.
Playing 300 more games, Crawford has a WS of 60.7 and a WS/48 of .075.

If you look at total BPM or VORP there is simply no comparison.

And given Crawford's poor defense, I'm not sure I'd take him over Ginobili in one-on-one.

[ElNono]

Gilbert who?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[ambchang]

I mean, it's not even close. From a purely statistical perspective (ignoring all the team accolades like titles, or even playoff numbers), Ginobili is simply in every stat. The biggest issue about Ginobili and Crawford, or 6th man in general, are minutes. So let's take a look at minutes and per possession stats (to remove the issue with pace), in the format career/high season:


pp36min pp100p rp36min rp100p ap36min ap100p sp36min sp100p bp36min bp100p
Ginobili 18.8/22.6 27.5/33.9 5/6 7.2/9.1 5.4/7.1 7.8/10 1.9/2.4 2.7/3.6 0.4/0.5 0.6/0.8
Crawford* 17.9/22.0 25.7/30.9 2.7/3.6 3.9/5.2 4.2/6.8 6/9 1.1/1.5 1.6/2.2 0.3/0.5 0.4/0.7

* Crawford played a one game season with the Nets with insane per 36 and per 100 stats, so it won't count because it is a small sample size

While I am not surprised that Ginobili was better in assists, rebounds, steals, I was surprised at how small a margin he had over Crawford in assists, and was more surprised that Ginobili was a better scorer. Crawford has the reputation of being an unstoppable offensive force and was brought in to score and not much else, Ginobili was STILL better.

As for Ginobili vs. Harden is the classic case of why young ballers want to get theirs before "being a team player" and win some chips. Harden will most definitely be remembered as the better and even more accomplished player than Ginobili to most fans, he had better stats, he made way more money, he has his own shoes, he single-handedly fed villages worth of strippers, but he actively chose that route. He chose to go to a team that would give him free reign to have the ball in his hands as much as he did, and he took full advantage of it. I don't blame him, because who grew up aspiring to be a 6th man with zero MVPs and only two all-star appearances? Almost all kids, if not all kids, will choose getting an MVP, bunch of all-star games, making $40m a year, scoring and assist titles, etc ... It's not even close.

But as a GM, it's likely wise to choose the player who helps you win and there is no doubt in my mind Ginobili is the player you want more than Harden if you want to win titles.

[DAF86]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ4QeJQXkAAcsyG?format=jpg&name=900x900

[lefty]

Duncan and Manu making Parker look good tbh

[Brazil]

Duncan and Manu making Parker look good tbh

:lol and you are the one talking shit about Spurs fans obsessed with former players... Tony is retired and you still spend your time dissing him in majority of your post in the spurs forum.. speaking of obsessed, he fucked your wife or something ?

[Brazil]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ4QeJQXkAAcsyG?format=jpg&name=900x900


also :lol Crawford :lol Kobe


also amazing graph... and :lol anyone who does not put Duncan in a top 10 list of all time

[lefty]

:lol and you are the one talking shit about Spurs fans obsessed with former players... Tony is retired and you still spend your time dissing him in majority of your post in the spurs forum.. speaking of obsessed, he fucked your wife or something ?
Nah I'm not obsessed with former players, just making an observation about that graphic
There is a difference

You Parker fans are sensitive and come to his rescue fast :lol

[Brazil]

Nah I'm not obsessed with former players, just making an observation about that graphic
There is a difference

You Parker fans are sensitive and come to his rescue fast :lol

All posters talking about former players Kawhi, Dejounte etc... are just making observation and you are calling them out on the regular... you are using dat double standard.

:cry don't talk about former players only if it is to diss Tony who I hate for whatever reason :cry

[exstatic]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZ4QeJQXkAAcsyG?format=jpg&name=900x900

Look across the top row at those three shining lights. Only ONE of them made the 75th anniversary team. What a fucking joke THAT was...

[lefty]

All posters talking about former players Kawhi, Dejounte etc... are just making observation and you are calling them out on the regular... you are using dat double standard.

:cry don't talk about former players only if it is to diss Tony who I hate for whatever reason :cry
They are just making observations?

:lol I guess you were too busy licking Parker's balls to notice there are multiple, multi-page threads about Kawhi and DJM

Double standards right?

[Seventyniner]

Number Two could join the Big Three above that 70% line, but he has somehow only played 576 games in his career so far and is already 31. If he keeps only playing 60 games per year he might never make it to 1,000 total.

[Brazil]

They are just making observations?

:lol I guess you were too busy licking Parker's balls to notice there are multiple, multi-page threads about Kawhi and DJM

Double standards right?

yes they are :lol they post less about former players than you about Parker .. the thing is you are the only one obsessed with Parker... you have nary room to talk shit.

I would go a bit further... probably two thirds of your posts spurs related are about Parker.. :lol

[lefty]

y
I would go a bit further... probably two thirds of your posts spurs related are about Parker.. :lol
The better than Porker posts?

Nah it's just (lame) trolling tbh

[Brazil]

The better than Porker posts?

Nah it's just (lame) trolling tbh

:lol just asking to not jinx FNT for the WC bro

[lefty]

:lol just asking to not jinx FNT for the WC bro
So you didn't notice the team logo change I made a few weeks ago?

[Brazil]

So you didn't notice the team logo change I made a few weeks ago?

yeah that's why I'm getting worried :lol

[lefty]

yeah that's why I'm getting worried :lol
No don't worry
Barring major injuries, France will win
The 2018 team with more experience and motivation from the early Euro exit + Benzema?
Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

the only question that matters is Manu v Parker

[rastaspur]

He's a Hall of Famer mainly based on his international resume, doesn't get anywhere close only on his NBA resume.. As a four time NBA champion and key piece I'd disagree. He is in on NBA alone but maybe not first ballot.

[Ice009]

. As a four time NBA champion and key piece I'd disagree. He is in on NBA alone but maybe not first ballot.

Yeah, I agree with your take. He's not first ballot with his NBA career, but for sure a hall of famer with those 4 rings and how integral he was towards getting them. Could have had even more rings if things bounced our way a few more times (2004, 2006, 2008, 2011, 2013 etc. Heck even 2015 & 2016 the Spurs had good chances). Man, the Spurs were really darn good in the TD era.