Latest Intel as Spurs Training Camp Nears

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/spurs-trade-intel-training-camp/

The post-Dejounte Trade offseason didn't go as planned, unfortunately.

[JuneJive]

Indy, Utah and SA should all get on the phone together and set their price for the other teams.

So if anyone makes a deal it will be a good one.

[KingKev]

Unfortunate outcome here. Utah and Indy are well ahead of us in terms of facilitating deals at this point.

I’m very doubtful JRich nets you an FRP outright. That asking price for Jak is very fair given the outrageous price for Gobert but he value will only decline from here. I’d take a top 10 protected FRP and keep moving along with the rebuild.

It shouldn’t surprise anyone McD is viewed as a negative asset in most scenarios. He has more value to us as a tank commander. If we want to get his value up let him show he can shoot that 3pt % on volume. He’s never averaged more than 5 attempts a game. If he can shoot 40% on 8-10 shots I think his value will increase toward the trade deadline but still not to an FRP.

[The Truth #6]

So if no trades materialize, and they probably won’t soon, I guess training camp will have some minor intrigue as far as which marginal players get cut.

[KingKev]

20 choose 17 with Barlow and Hall likely the two ways we have to cut 3 of:

- Romeo Langford (fully guaranteed)
- Isaiah Roby (fully guaranteed)
- Joe Weiskamp (guaranteed opening night)
- KBD (believe he is partially guaranteed and becomes fully guaranteed opening night)
- Tommy Kuhse (training camp deal so basically guaranteed opening night)
- Alize Johnson (training camp deal guaranteed opening night)

I’m cutting KBD, Kuhse, Johnson.

[NASpurs]

"4) I’m told the Spurs have shopped Doug McDermott this summer but they have only received lukewarm interest. Rival scouts insist that McDermott has a negative trade value due to the two years and $27.5 million he has remaining on his contract. However, the Spurs aren’t interested in attaching an asset to McDermott in order to move him."

You don't say...

[BatManu20]

McDermott having a negative trade value should come as a surprise to one. The guy’s making nearly $14M a year. PATFO never should’ve given him that contract to begin with. One of many errors by this front office over the past 4 years.

[MultiTroll]

McDermott having a negative trade value should come as a surprise to one. The guy’s making nearly $14M a year. PATFO never should’ve given him that contract to begin with. One of many errors by this front office over the past 4 years.
Who the F was involved in this decision?

[The Truth #6]

McDermott was to help with stability on a bad team so Pop can get the record, in my opinion. I think/hope those type of deals are done while we “rebuild”.

[MultiTroll]

Getting rejected for a date with the Lakers. :lol
For a date with Russell Westbrook. :lmao
https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,w_720,ar_16:9,f_auto,q_auto,g_auto/shape/cover/sport/Screen-Shot-2019-05-27-at-32305-PM-dd498b9b3fcde42d5ca0e74c80e9ae1b.jpg

[KingKev]

McDermott having a negative trade value should come as a surprise to one. The guy’s making nearly $14M a year. PATFO never should’ve given him that contract to begin with. One of many errors by this front office over the past 4 years.

Because I enjoy beating a dead horse…. The guy had no market. His best offer away couldn’t have been more than the MLE at the time and probably on a shorter deal.

If Dougie at 14mm is your worst contract that is manageable still this signing represents the epitome of PATFO having their heads firmly up their asses in the post Duncan era. Thank-fully it appears Pop has removed Wrights chastity belt these last 8 months with PATFO slowly showing they are capable again.

[K...]

McDermott having a negative trade value should come as a surprise to one. The guy’s making nearly $14M a year. PATFO never should’ve given him that contract to begin with. One of many errors by this front office over the past 4 years.


Who the F was involved in this decision?

Stop it you drama queens. The spurs can overpay vets they got a huge cap space to waste on vets. Dermot is the least of our problems. You want guys like that for depth on a tanking team.

[DPG21920]

https://www.spurstalk.com/spurs-trade-intel-training-camp/

The post-Dejounte Trade offseason didn't go as planned, unfortunately.

Check your DM mang

[Leetonidas]

This was all very predictable tbh

[DPG21920]

The Doug signing was the most obvious stupid signing - so unfortunate. Oh well. At least SA has done well to realize their situation, extract solid value for others and still has some guys like Richardon/Jakob to keep going in that direction.

The FO has done a MUCH better job and turned me from hater to quasi-believer

[Ariel]

The points made are fair and I do think Indy and Utah are ahead in term of making good deals, but I think it's a matter of letting everything settle down and some opportunity will present itself. I think Indiana will likely end up taking Westbrook and picks for Myles Turner and Buddy Hield, and Utah will trade a few of their chips (Bodganovic, Clarke) and taking some some longer term salary in the process. When that happens, that should leave the Spurs in better position to take advantage of other deals. Not the scenario we expected, but something good can still come from it... I expect 3 first round picks plus maybe an interesting player for all our assets (Poeltl + Richardson + capspace) when it's all said and done.

[The Truth #6]

The signing was worse than I thought. But at the time my thought was, it felt like another Belinelli signing but at least he was taller, I guess?

[jjspur]

As always, the spurs are playing a waiting game, with very few callers. As was stated, Indiana and Utah are in a more favorable position than the spurs right now. However if the Pacers and Jazz make a few few trades fairly soon, the spurs will probably be waiting until the trade deadline to make a move, when teams are a little more desperate. Now we all know the spurs don't make many trades at the deadline so that may be a moot point as well. The strategy probably is to play with what we got and tank at the same time for the best chances in next years draft. We're going to be bad no matter what we do this season. Getting picks for our players is great but there have to be two teams willing to tango and right now the spurs are all alone on the dance floor. Embracing the tank is our best option for the spurs.

[Mugen]

:lol They're not getting 2 first rounders for Jakob tbh.

[CGD]

Utah is not a cap space threat this year unless they dump big contracts without taking money back. They are way over the cap still. The Indy thing makes a lot of sense, but so does the fact that there are just fewer outright terrible contracts out there than their were 10 years about (Allen Crabb deals).

Like others have stated before Richardson (and even Doug) become more valuable towards the deadline. The guy they need to move now though is Jakob. His value - what the spurs will be able to get for him that is - continues to decline following the failure to move him after the last trade deadline.

[The Truth #6]

Definitely trade Yak now. Orchestrating a sign and trade next off-season seems like a long shot. He needs to be on a good team, bot giving us extra wins. We scored with Dejounte but not all trades are home runs. Take a first and move on.

[KingKev]

Utah is not a cap space threat this year unless they dump big contracts without taking money back. They are way over the cap still. The Indy thing makes a lot of sense, but so does the fact that there are just fewer outright terrible contracts out there than their were 10 years about (Allen Crabb deals).

Like others have stated before Richardson (and even Doug) become more valuable towards the deadline. The guy they need to move now though is Jakob. His value - what the spurs will be able to get for him that is - continues to decline following the failure to move him after the last trade deadline.

Utah’s cap space is largely irrelevant in this race as they are under the luxury cap threshold and between Conley, Bogdonovich, Clarkson and Gay that is 57mm dollars they can use to eat bad contracts for picks. They are absolutely a competitor of ours in cap utilization for picks.

Why does Jak’s value fall while JRich’s increases? Basically same contract.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Lakers are going to deal Westbrick. That team will likely be due for another shitty year with the aging King, the inept point gawd, and the center cut from glass.

[Ariel]

Utah’s cap space is largely irrelevant in this race as they are under the luxury cap threshold and between Conley, Bogdonovich, Clarkson and Gay that is 57mm dollars they can use to eat bad contracts for picks. They are absolutely a competitor of our ls in cap utilization.

Why does Jak’s value fall while JRich’s increases? Basically same contract.
Utah for sure can use expiring contracts to achieve roughly the same goal, but it's not exactly the same situation. We should leave Bogdanovic and Clarkson out since whatever return they get will come from their value as players rather than their status as expiring contracts, much like we expect to collect assets from Poeltl & Richardson besides the fact that they come off the books. Gay can be used for the same purpose, same as Conley, but his contract extends beyond this season. Once Bogdanovic & Clarkson are traded (soon I suspect) their ability to take in bad contracts will go down significantly.

EDIT - Just checked, Gay & Clarkson have a player options for next season.

[KingKev]

Utah for sure can use expiring contracts to achieve roughly the same goal, but it's not exactly the same situation. We should leave Bogdanovic and Clarkson out since whatever return they get will come from their value as players rather than their status as expiring contracts, much like we expect to collect assets from Poeltl & Richardson besides the fact that they come off the books. Gay can be used for the same purpose, same as Conley, but his contract extends beyond this season. Once Bogdanovic & Clarkson are traded (soon I suspect) their ability to take in bad contracts will go down significantly.

There are only so many bad contracts out there. Even Hayward probably doesn’t get moved for a cost.

It’s a race to the bottom for teams in the rebuilding stage and Utah is a formidable opponent as their assets are better.

[spurraider21]

who in their right minds would trade 2 first for jakob :lol

[KingKev]

who in their right minds would trade 2 first for jakob :lol

If Gobert can return 5 (some of which even have limited protections) and a pick swap plus two usable players for Gobert and his albatross 170mm remaining contract, Jak is probably worth 2 FRPs for a team looking to add a defensive minded center for the long term.

[DPG21920]

who in their right minds would trade 2 first for jakob :lol

I can see a few. Especially if SA adds say the CHA pick and gets back 2 more “certain” firsts etc

[The Truth #6]

Sounds like they tested the market but per this report still have a very high asking price, which is probably the challenge. He’s an acquired test I guess for some teams. We probably overvalue him a little as well as the league undervaluing him. I suppose things could change before training camp but it doesn’t sound like it.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

who in their right minds would trade 2 first for jakob :lol
Timofey Mozgov
January 7, 2015: Traded by the Denver Nuggets (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2015.html) with a 2015 2nd round draft pick (Sir'Dominic Pointer (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pointsi01.html) was later selected) to the Cleveland Cavaliers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html) for a 2016 1st round draft pick (Furkan Korkmaz (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/korkmfu01.html) was later selected) and a 2017 1st round draft pick (Harry Giles (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilesha01.html) was later selected). (CLE sends pair of 1st-Rd picks to DEN. One of the picks is from OKC, which is top-18 protected in 2015 & top-15 protected afterwards. The other pick is from MEM & is conveyed if between 6-14 in 2015 or 2016 & and is top-5 protected in 2017 & 2018).

[baseline bum]

The Lakers are going to deal Westbrick. That team will likely be due for another shitty year with the aging King, the inept point gawd, and the center cut from glass.

Lakers don't seem to understand that Westbrook is one of the most negative assets in the league.

[Ariel]

If Gobert can return 5 (some of which even have limited protections) and a pick swap plus two usable players for Gobert and his albatross 170mm remaining contract, Jak is probably worth 2 FRPs for a team looking to add a defensive minded center for the long term.
In theory you're right, in practice it's all supply and demand, and Gobert's return is a result of one desperate GM and can't be used for reference. Also Myles Turner being available lowers Poeltl's price. Unfortunately circumstances are not the best for us in this aspect either, which is why maybe we're going to have to sell cheaper than expected or wait until Indy & Utah make their moves now and the dust settles, and wait until the trade deadline approaches for some team's creeping desperation to yield good dividends for us.

[CGD]

Utah’s cap space is largely irrelevant in this race as they are under the luxury cap threshold and between Conley, Bogdonovich, Clarkson and Gay that is 57mm dollars they can use to eat bad contracts for picks. They are absolutely a competitor of ours in cap utilization for picks.

Why does Jak’s value fall while JRich’s increases? Basically same contract.

My understanding is that they would have to ship out many contracts in order to open up the space, so they can't just eat bad money like Indy and we could. I suppose the counter is that they have many more desirable expirings that other teams would like than what we can offer.

Unlike Richardson, i think who ever offers value for Jak will want to know they can keep him long term or else theyll just wait until the offseason. Rich is just a gunner rental for a deep playoff push.

[Mr. Body]

NEWSFLASH: No news.

None of this is a surprise. The market froze when the Nets brats started wailing and it never picked back up. Westbrook is way too expensive for two picks years from now.

I favor Poeltl and Richardson staying for now. Right now we only have Tre as a PG and there's only Zollins as a center if Poeltl goes -- Dieng is old as fuck and Collins' health should still be regarded as uncertain. Trade those two players to contenders as things shape up during the year.

That's pretty much it.

[TD 21]

Bad luck and the Spurs? Nah.



Definitely trade Yak now. Orchestrating a sign and trade next off-season seems like a long shot. He needs to be on a good team, bot giving us extra wins. We scored with Dejounte but not all trades are home runs. Take a first and move on.

I understand they're still trying to somewhat repair their reputation and obviously need to maximize value, but they'd be fools to risk slightly hurting their draft odds and risking injury.

They've also got to be realistic. Poeltl plays arguably the most oversaturated position and unlike White and Murray, with them gone and his contract expiring, the league knows he's next.

He's probably worth a mid-rounder and a recent first whose value has declined. Something like Plumlee, Jones and getting the Hornets to lessen the protections on their '23 1st.

Richardson is probably worth two seconds, one in the early and another in the mid round.

[KingKev]

I don’t see Charlotte back at the table. They are a bottom feeding east team for the foreseeable future. That FRP isnmt going to convey as a first.

Jak’s value is now is probably realized in a much broader deal. Solo he’ll maybe fetch a far out top 10 protected.

Keep in mind we can easily outbid anyone next summer regardless of where he is traded. We will probably have to pay a premium to retain him next summer anyways so get something now and revisit his fit in summer 2023.

[objective]

I agree with those who feel the Spurs assets for trade are poor, the only way they get Westbrook and picks is if Utah and Indiana don't feel like it. Bogdanovic & Clarkson or Conley, or Turner & Hield will help the Lakers win games more than McDermott & Richardson even if they added Collins.

[Extra Stout]

The other teams can afford to wait out the Spurs, who will be forced to dump Jak and Rich for whatever they can get at the trade deadline.

It’s weird how the glow of eight years ago is so bright that it keeps so many from seeing that the Spurs are now a rudderless bottom-feeding franchise with no plan to return to the playoffs, much less contention. Probably nobody on the roster will still be on the team the next time the Spurs finish above .500.

[TD 21]

I don’t see Charlotte back at the table. They are a bottom feeding east team for the foreseeable future. That FRP isnmt going to convey as a first.

Jak’s value is now is probably realized in a much broader deal. Solo he’ll maybe fetch a far out top 10 protected.

Keep in mind we can easily outbid anyone next summer regardless of where he is traded. We will probably have to pay a premium to retain him next summer anyways so get something now and revisit his fit in summer 2023.

They've got to do something to stem the tide and appease Ball. I realize Poeltl isn't a starry name, but he could go aways to helping stabilize the defense and the cost isn't prohibitive enough to prevent them from attempting to but their way into the sweepstakes for the next star.

In terms of '23, top 10 protected would have a chance to convey, but obviously it couldn't be exclusive to next year.

Maybe or maybe the Spurs would be fine with another pick further out, so long as it's a likely late lottery one.

[KingKev]

They've got to do something to stem the tide and appease Ball. I realize Poeltl isn't a starry name, but he could go aways to helping stabilize the defense and the cost isn't prohibitive enough to prevent them from attempting to but their way into the sweepstakes for the next star.

In terms of '23, top 10 protected would have a chance to convey, but obviously it couldn't be exclusive to next year.

Maybe or maybe the Spurs would be fine with another pick further out, so long as it's a likely late lottery one.

Charlotte’s short term timeline will be defined by the Bridges situation. If he is a no go this year it’s time to reboot/rebuild and that means asset gathering and their most baluable assets the jext few years are probably their own FRPs.

[KingKev]

NEWSFLASH: No news.

None of this is a surprise. The market froze when the Nets brats started wailing and it never picked back up. Westbrook is way too expensive for two picks years from now.

I favor Poeltl and Richardson staying for now. Right now we only have Tre as a PG and there's only Zollins as a center if Poeltl goes -- Dieng is old as fuck and Collins' health should still be regarded as uncertain. Trade those two players to contenders as things shape up during the year.

That's pretty much it.

Pop has a major fetish for playing guys out of position. Sochan could potentially be playing material minutes at the 5.

[Mr. Body]

The other teams can afford to wait out the Spurs, who will be forced to dump Jak and Rich for whatever they can get at the trade deadline.

It’s weird how the glow of eight years ago is so bright that it keeps so many from seeing that the Spurs are now a rudderless bottom-feeding franchise with no plan to return to the playoffs, much less contention. Probably nobody on the roster will still be on the team the next time the Spurs finish above .500.

How does this make a lick of sense? Waiting out the Spurs?

Man people have a foul idea of how shit works. Teams will play the season. Whether due to injuries or otherwise, some playoff teams will realize they need a player or two. That's the market. No one is 'waiting out' the Spurs whatever the fuck that means.

[Mr. Body]

Pop has a major fetish for playing guys out of position. Sochan could potentially be playing material minutes at the 5.

:lol Have you not been watching the NBA for the last eight years? :lol

[TD 21]

Charlotte’s short term timeline will be defined by the Bridges situation. If he is a no go this year it’s time to reboot/rebuild and that means asset gathering and their most baluable assets the jext few years are probably their own FRPs.

In a practical sense, yes, but they've got to be concerned with shades of '20 Young sooner than later.

Emerging young star who sees his draft mate Edwards flanked by two All-NBA caliber players and probably thought his own team was up and coming, has seen their fortunes turn on a dime and wants immediate reinforcements to stay invested in non glamor market.

Their pick is most likely to land in the mid-late lottery.

[KingKev]

:lol Have you not been watching the NBA for the last eight years? :lol

What are you arguing. On one hand you said we have lack of depth at the center position if Jak is moved and now you are arguing a 6’8 Socahn (whom has never played center) makes a whole lotta sense.

Sochan should be playing the 4 out the gate. Especially on a roster that hasn’t had a true decent PF in years. He can moonlight as a center, matchup dependent.

[Dex]

What are you arguing. On one hand you said we have lack of depth at the center position if Jak is moved and now you are arguing a 6’8 Socahn (whom has never played center makes sense) makes a whole lotta sense.

Sochan should be playing the 4 out the gate. Especially on a roster who hasn’t has a true decent PF in years.

If Sochan's defensive abilities are real, I think he could spot some minutes at 5....but I agree, I'd rather let him focus on his true position and cut out this small ball bullshit. We just don't have the personnel to make it work

[exstatic]

I agree with those who feel the Spurs assets for trade are poor, the only way they get Westbrook and picks is if Utah and Indiana don't feel like it. Bogdanovic & Clarkson or Conley, or Turner & Hield will help the Lakers win games more than McDermott & Richardson even if they added Collins.

Utah can’t absorb his contract. They can only send out expirings for Russ’s expiring, and that doesn’t generate a trade exception. Only Indy and us can create that exception. Once Indy makes a deal, we become the only game in town for cap rental.

[KingKev]

Utah can’t absorb his contract. They can only send out expirings for Russ’s expiring, and that doesn’t generate a trade exception. Only Indy and us can create that exception. Once Indy makes a deal, we become the only game in town for cap rental.

If they send out a combination of Bogdonovich, Clarkson, Conley and/or Gay they easily can. For the Lakers having players who immediately help their team is probably more valuable than a TE when you are paying draft capital to remove Russ.

The proper way to look at how this all shakes down is cap space plus useful vets.

Utah may not have the cap but they are loaded with useful players/contracts.

Similar to us Indiana has useful players/contracts and cap space. Their players are arguable better fits.

[objective]

Utah can’t absorb his contract. They can only send out expirings for Russ’s expiring, and that doesn’t generate a trade exception. Only Indy and us can create that exception. Once Indy makes a deal, we become the only game in town for cap rental.


If they send out a combination of Bogdonovich, Clarkson, Conley and/or Gay they easily can. For the Lakers having players who immediately help their team is probably more valuable than a TE when you are paying draft capital to remove Russ.

The proper way to look at how this all shakes down is cap space plus useful vets.

Utah may not have the cap but they are loaded with useful players/contracts.

Similar to us Indiana has useful players/contracts and cap space. Their players are arguable better fits.

I agree with KingKev

An exception is not the only game in town. Spurs can't absorb 47 million, they can only get halfway there without any other players.

A straight trade of Westbrook and picks for Bogdanovic, Conley and Gay works. Bogdanovic has scored 17+ a game for 4+ seasons, I'm sure he's more valuable desirable than McDermott.

[objective]

Bogdanovic, Conley and Clarkson for Westbrook and Nunn works in the trade machine also

[The Truth #6]

I think Ainge can eventually get more for Conley and Bogdonavich than Westbrick.

[Seventyniner]

I think Ainge can eventually get more for Conley and Bogdonavich than Westbrick.

The point would be to get two firsts from the Lakers. Westbrook would probably be immediately waived or bought out.

[MarCowMar]

I'm no cap guru but is another route for the Spurs to take to just sit where they are and let the $18 million or so be distributed to the players on roster as a sort of bonus?

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c9ab74316b64065dcedea07/t/5c9b86246e9a7f4e16e546f8/1553696297253/2017-NBA-NBPA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement.pdf

(see "Minimum Team Salary" on page 159)

"In the event that a Team’s Team Salary for a Salary Cap Year
as of the start of the Team’s last Regular Season game of that
Article VII 161
Salary Cap Year is less than the applicable Minimum Team Salary
for that Salary Cap Year, the NBA shall cause such Team to make
payments to the players who were on the Team’s roster during the
Regular Season covered by such Salary Cap Year equal to the
shortfall"

I'm not sure if the "minimum team salary" is a separate term from the "cap floor" at this link which lists it at $111 million:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/cap/

Basically just use the $$ as goodwill? For the rookies especially that makes it a bit easier to stomach a non-competitive, developmental season. It may lead to a more cohesive locker room than seeing that money go to Russell Westbrook for a future pick.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

:lol They're not getting 2 first rounders for Jakob tbh.
They received a first-round pick for Thaddeus Young, although he sat on the bench for half of the games.
Jakob is one of the best defensive centers in the league. Plus, he gives a bunch of impact on offense (screens, offensive rebounds, and so on).

[Vince Carter's ankle]

What are you arguing. On one hand you said we have lack of depth at the center position if Jak is moved and now you are arguing a 6’8 Socahn (whom has never played center) makes a whole lotta sense.

Sochan should be playing the 4 out the gate. Especially on a roster that hasn’t had a true decent PF in years. He can moonlight as a center, matchup dependent.
1) Sohan was used as a point center in college sometimes.
2) Kevon Looney at UCLA was a small forward and shoot threes. Isn't he the center right now?

[tbdog]

They received a first-round pick for Thaddeus Young, although he sat on the bench for half of the games.
Jakob is one of the best defensive centers in the league. Plus, he gives a bunch of impact on offense (screens, offensive rebounds, and so on).

Spurs moved up 13 spots. We gave our 33rd pick to get 20.

[Dejounte]

For a forum picky about a team’s position in the draft (literally 2 spots make people scream), you’d think they’d be wise enough not to value second round picks the same way as first round picks. It might as well be 23 spots up than 13 since no one here will genuinely say that any pick after the 30th selection amounts to much anyway. And if they tell you it does, they’re hypocrites and are lying to you. Logic gets blown out of the water here frequently.

[Dejounte]

Another example of logic getting blown out of the water:

Spurstalk god flip flops on inside info from a month or so ago saying it was a sure thing a player gets traded. People eat it up. Now that’s not the case— no one bats an eye.

[PuzzBeterson]

Weirdly enough, all I want is to see more of Zach Collins.

[KingKev]

For a forum picky about a team’s position in the draft (literally 2 spots make people scream), you’d think they’d be wise enough not to value second round picks the same way as first round picks. It might as well be 23 spots up than 13 since no one here will genuinely say that any pick after the 30th selection amounts to much anyway. And if they tell you it does, they’re hypocrites and are lying to you. Logic gets blown out of the water here frequently.

It’s not a science; the relationship in draft order is never linear and these relationships change each year depending on the talent pool. Did you notice how many early second rounders netted 4yr deals this summer?

We traded Thad for an in the money pick swap. It was a solid move but it wasn’t an outright FRP.

[Extra Stout]

How does this make a lick of sense? Waiting out the Spurs?

Man people have a foul idea of how shit works. Teams will play the season. Whether due to injuries or otherwise, some playoff teams will realize they need a player or two. That's the market. No one is 'waiting out' the Spurs whatever the fuck that means.
I’ll explain it to you like you’re five. Think of Jak like lemonade at a lemonade stand. You charge a dollar for a cup but nobody is buying because your price is too high. Mommy is going to make you come inside when it gets dark. You need to sell your lemonade before it gets dark. So as it starts to get dark you cut your price to 25 cents so the other kids will buy your lemonade.

[mo7888]

I’ll explain it to you like you’re five. Think of Jak like lemonade at a lemonade stand. You charge a dollar for a cup but nobody is buying because your price is too high. Mommy is going to make you come inside when it gets dark. You need to sell your lemonade before it gets dark. So as it starts to get dark you cut your price to 25 cents so the other kids will buy your lemonade.

But you don't have to sell the lemonade today because you have a refrigerator and tomorrow's forecast is for blistering heat and the kids playing will be very thirsty....

[Chinook]

People underestimate how much the market has calcified. That's not a "leverage" thing. It's a result of training camp coming up. Few teams have the capacity and willingness to make medium moves before seeing guys play. Yes, the Spurs getting two firsts for Poeltl is very unlikely to happen. If they were to get them, they'd be the ultra shitty firsts. One decent first from a lower-level playoff team would make more sense. Or maybe Poeltl isn't a liar and the team isn't trying to trade him. They can offer Jakob an extension on 10/01. I can't imagine they'd entertain any trade before seeing if he'll take a deal. Even if their goal is to move him, they'd get way more value trading him this off-season with three years left on his deal than they would right now as an expiring.

Richardson is a JAG and would need to play well to actually fetch a first-rounder. I see no reason to not give him the opportunity to improve his stock with guys like Branham and/or Wesley in Austin. Unless Wieskamp shows up and is an instant rotation player, there's a clear spot for a wing shooter off the bench.

Jones, Vassell, McDermott, Johnson, Poeltl
Primo, Richardson, Sochan, Roby, Collins

Even if fans get what they want and McDermott comes off the bench and Sochan starts, that still leaves the second-unit with a glut of bigs and in need of Richardson's defense and mobility.

Speaking of McD, that this article made so much folks hand-wring about his contract is hilarious. He's coming off an injury, and the Spurs are rebuilding. It's not surprising that teams aren't lining up to pay him. The suggestion that he was a horrible contract is overblown. First, he was actually really good the year before the Spurs signed him. I didn't like them targeting him and still think it was a bad idea, but the issue was not that they were massively outbidding his production. Comparable players like Bertans and Robinson got much bigger deals, and they weren't better players. The reasons why the Spurs signed him (to improve offensive flow and to give their young play-makers an outlet) are only more important now. The idea of the Spurs having to keep McD for another year shouldn't scare anyone. He'll be good for the offense, and his bad defense will help the Spurs lose games. The combo is basically perfect for the team. The absolute downside is not having $14 Million more in space next year, and given how hard it's been for the team to use cap space recently, I don't think I'm too worried.

[KingKev]

^I agree with most of this. JRich is more likely to jet you a few SRPs or can be used to trade up similiar to Thad. Still a nice return.

Jak has already stated his intent to explore free agency and seems to have a good idea of his worth. His extension eligibility amount is probably 2-5mm less than what he gets next summer. The Spurs will eventually get something for him I suspect whether via trade under the current deal, or in a sign and trade next summer. Hell they could even move him this season and re-sign him next given our cap situation.

[Chinook]

I’ll explain it to you like you’re five. Think of Jak like lemonade at a lemonade stand. You charge a dollar for a cup but nobody is buying because your price is too high. Mommy is going to make you come inside when it gets dark. You need to sell your lemonade before it gets dark. So as it starts to get dark you cut your price to 25 cents so the other kids will buy your lemonade.

The Spurs not getting "whatever they can get" for Poeltl only hurts them insofar as they miss out on whatever teams were willing to offer. We don't know if anyone is offering a first-plus right now. If teams are offering seconds, then the Spurs can easily just say no and let Jakob go to free agency. The team's fate is very, very likely to be tied to what happens with their natural picks over the next few years. It's unlikely that anything they get for Poeltl will materially affect their trajectory. At the same time, any team trying to "wait out" the Spurs will be missing out on Poeltl's production. The longer they wait, the less his expected impact on their team would be. There could be games earlier in the season where he could have helped them win, but because they were too worried about leverage, they lost them instead. That could hurt their standings. I don't actually think the situation is in their favor at all.

[LkrFan]

https://www.spurstalk.com/spurs-trade-intel-training-camp/

The post-Dejounte Trade offseason didn't go as planned, unfortunately.

1572224651467669508

:wow

[stnick2261]

Haha..... the source of that article is SpursTalk and literally says the trade talks have died off.

[BatManu20]

Haha..... the source of that article is SpursTalk and literally says the trade talks have died off.

:lol

[baseline bum]

For a forum picky about a team’s position in the draft (literally 2 spots make people scream), you’d think they’d be wise enough not to value second round picks the same way as first round picks. It might as well be 23 spots up than 13 since no one here will genuinely say that any pick after the 30th selection amounts to much anyway. And if they tell you it does, they’re hypocrites and are lying to you. Logic gets blown out of the water here frequently.

Yeah the only second round picks the Spurs have made this century who played anything but garbage minutes were Blair and Tre Jones. Seconds aren't at all valuable these days when scouting is a lot better than it was say 40 years ago when you'd get lots of good players outside the top 30 picks.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Jones, Vassell, McDermott, Johnson, Poeltl
Primo, Richardson, Sochan, Roby, Collins

If Keldon is a four, then I would like to see Jones and Primo in the starting five. Last season, a similar line up was already played against Portland.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202204010SAS.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202204030SAS.html

[KingKev]

If Keldon is a four, then I would like to see Jones and Primo in the starting five. Last season, a similar line up was already played against Portland.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202204010SAS.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202204030SAS.html

That lineup was because McD was out.

It's likely going to be what Chinook wrote although if the runours are true Primo may challenge Tre for starting point.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

That lineup was because McD was out.

It's likely going to be what Chinook wrote although if the runours are true Primo may challenge Tre for starting point.
Right.
But I don't get what the point is in the tanking season to give Doug 25+ minutes.
Primo is better on defense and can move without the ball, judging by the games for Alabama. Although it is inferior in this aspect to McBuckets.

[Mr. Body]

I’ll explain it to you like you’re five. Think of Jak like lemonade at a lemonade stand. You charge a dollar for a cup but nobody is buying because your price is too high. Mommy is going to make you come inside when it gets dark. You need to sell your lemonade before it gets dark. So as it starts to get dark you cut your price to 25 cents so the other kids will buy your lemonade.

Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?

[KingKev]

Right.
But I don't get what the point is in the tanking season to give Doug 25+ minutes.
Primo is better on defense and can move without the ball, judging by the games for Alabama. Although it is inferior in this aspect to McBuckets.

Neither will win you a single game… but realize Pop is still going to coach like we are competitors. He doesn’t have a strategic mindset from a general management standpoint. He never has even when he held multiple hats.

[The Truth #6]

Just curious what people thought. Who would help win more games—Yak or Westbrick? I can see arguments either way. I obviously can see arguments that neither one should be on the team when we’re trying to rebuild. It also feels like San Antonio is still going to have to either lower their trade demands or somehow maybe make something work with the Lakers… Otherwise, yeah it’s resigning Yak to trade later (which seems unlikely) or waiting till the trade deadline or the off-season, which is probably what will happen.

[KingKev]

Just curious what people thought. Who would help win more games—Yak or Westbrick? I can see arguments either way. I obviously can see arguments that neither one should be on the team when we’re trying to rebuild. It also feels like San Antonio is still going to have to either lower their trade demands or somehow maybe make something work with the Lakers… Otherwise, yeah it’s resigning Yak to trade later (which seems unlikely) or waiting till the trade deadline or the off-season, which is probably what will happen.

Russ would never play a game here. It wouldn’t even be considered, even if he was excited to come. Guaranteed imminent buyout and probably doesn’t have a conversation with PATFO, would be left to his agent.

Jak was a huge reason for us out perfroming expectations last year. His absence was felt regularly. If Russ played he’d be more useless than DDR. He’d be solid from a tank standpoint

[MultiTroll]

… Otherwise, yeah it’s resigning Yak to trade later (which seems unlikely) or waiting till the trade deadline or the off-season, which is probably what will happen.
Yak is in contract year so would have to be by trade deadline.

Entirely possible a contending team is looking for backup or average starter Center at the deadline.
Seems 100Xs more reasonable then paying 47 million for 2 very future draft picks for Westchuck.

[TD 21]

Jones, Vassell, McDermott, Johnson, Poeltl
Primo, Richardson, Sochan, Roby, Collins

Agreed that Jones begins the season as the starter at the point.

Asking Primo, yet to prove himself as a bona fide NBA player, to not only transition to primary ball handler but do so against starters and in a lineup bereft a secondary ball handler, is a lot.

No way Sochan or Roby play backup three though. Both in the rotation would require rotational gymnastics, so most likely Langford and Wieskamp, will simultaneously be battling for a roster and fringe rotation spot to begin the season.

[KingKev]

^ I understand the hierarchy argument but I think Sochan is the exception to this rule. His intangibles are immediately applicable and he is in a position of need. Should not be hard for him to secure a a backup role very esrly if not out the gate.

Romeo and to a lesser extent Weiskamp are fighting for a roster spot.z

[TD 21]

Agreed, but what I'm saying is it'll be at the expense of Roby.

Fourth wing is wide open. Branham likely seizes it at some point, but not immediately due to a toxic mix of politics and archaic thinking.

[jjspur]

Yak is in contract year so would have to be by trade deadline.

Entirely possible a contending team is looking for backup or average starter Center at the deadline.
Seems 100Xs more reasonable then paying 47 million for 2 very future draft picks for Westchuck.

How much do you think JAk is worth considering we traded 2 players making in the mid teens, and have 2 current players making above 10 million per year. He's not old yet and does have some value still. If he would sign for something like McDermott money it would not kill the budget. If we trade him, we may get a first but probably not a starting 1st at least not right away. Depending on who we trade him to, gets a very very good backup if not a starter in Poeltl.

All young teams need at least a few vets to guide the younger players and I wouldn't mind Poeltl being one of them. Trading him for a player and a pick is what his value is right now. You won't get two 1st's unless they are 5-7 years from now, or 2 highly protected 1st's even a few years from now.

Resigning him is probably the best move.

[KingKev]

Agreed, but what I'm saying is it'll be at the expense of Roby.

Fourth wing is wide open. Branham likely seizes it at some point, but not immediately due to a toxic mix of politics and archaic thinking.

Truthfully I’m most excited for those 7th-12th man battles because hierarchy aside it should show who is hungriest.

Wesley is the one guy I’d like to see get the gears early though and get tough lovin’ via a near full time Austin assignment.

[TD 21]

Truthfully I’m most excited for those 7th-12th man battles because hierarchy aside it should show who is hungriest.

Wesley is the one guy I’d like to see get the gears early though and get tough lovin’ via a near full time Austin assignment.

I'm "excited" (relatively speaking) for midseason - post trade deadline, when Poeltl and Richardson will have presumably been traded, Primo and Sochan potentially promoted to starters and Branham to rotation and finally, at long last, a starting lineup with reasonable positional size/shooting throughout and bereft a clear defensive liability.

[Ariel]

I'm excited to just watch our recent additions (Sochan, Branham, Wesley, Roby, Barlow) play, and up and coming guys (KJ, Vassell) continuing to grow. I'm actually optimistic about most of them taking a leap forward, except for one who shall remain nameless to avoid the sh!tstorm :lol

[J_Paco]

I'm just hoping Wesley can show out during training camp and preseason, thus force Pop's hand to play (and start) him much sooner then anticipated.

He is the "lowest" picked prospect but his combination of raw skills, size and athleticism is tantalizing.

[poopbox]

Why do the spurs think they can get two 1st round pick for a center with bricks for hands who can't make free throws and gets shit on by any big who realizes their skin is darker than poeltl's?

[diego]

Haha..... the source of that article is SpursTalk and literally says the trade talks have died off.

ha, im reading this thread because an argentine newspaper says spurs are interested in campazzo and i figured someone posted the thought in here :lol

must be another forum i guess

[GAustex]

campazzo Is a most excellent tank commander

[Ariel]

ha, im reading this thread because an argentine newspaper says spurs are interested in campazzo and i figured someone posted the thought in here :lol

must be another forum i guess
Campazzo to the Spurs makes no sense, unless Pop plans to use him as an inspirational figure like the guy in the movie "Rudy". He should go back to Europe and be an important player on a Euroleague team, rather than a fringe rotation guy in the NBA.

[MultiTroll]

How much do you think JAk is worth considering we traded 2 players making in the mid teens, and have 2 current players making above 10 million per year. He's not old yet and does have some value still. If he would sign for something like McDermott money it would not kill the budget. If we trade him, we may get a first but probably not a starting 1st at least not right away. Depending on who we trade him to, gets a very very good backup if not a starter in Poeltl.

All young teams need at least a few vets to guide the younger players and I wouldn't mind Poeltl being one of them. Trading him for a player and a pick is what his value is right now. You won't get two 1st's unless they are 5-7 years from now, or 2 highly protected 1st's even a few years from now.

Resigning him is probably the best move.
Probably the only way we get a juicy offer for Yak is if a contending team has an injury and needs to fill for the Championship run.
Boston, Golden Phaggots, Lakers? I dunno we'll have to see how this season progresses.

You would think the Lakers would be most willing to give up picks as they always know their true reload is free agency and scams. They just don't have any!

[DPG21920]

Tre
Vassell
Keldon
Sochan
Jak

Wesley
Primo
Josh Richardson
Doug
Collins

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Spurs moved up 13 spots. We gave our 33rd pick to get 20.

Precisely the point - moving 13 spots up in this draft is the value of a very decent FRP, considering Memphis traded pick 29 to move 3 spots up, from 22 to 19.

[ragas]

Dear Spurs,

please trade Jakob as soon as possible to a contender.
I wanna get out of here.
This is a dark place for years to come.

Thank you!

[exstatic]

How much do you think JAk is worth considering we traded 2 players making in the mid teens, and have 2 current players making above 10 million per year. He's not old yet and does have some value still. If he would sign for something like McDermott money it would not kill the budget. If we trade him, we may get a first but probably not a starting 1st at least not right away. Depending on who we trade him to, gets a very very good backup if not a starter in Poeltl.

All young teams need at least a few vets to guide the younger players and I wouldn't mind Poeltl being one of them. Trading him for a player and a pick is what his value is right now. You won't get two 1st's unless they are 5-7 years from now, or 2 highly protected 1st's even a few years from now.

Resigning him is probably the best move.

It would be nice to get him into an extension, but he’s said he wants to go into free agency. Even if you have a framework for a deal sketched out, you can’t ever know who might swoop in and overbid. You absolutely cannot let him walk for nothing when he has value.

We’re in a rebuild, and anyone who can be flipped for assets should be.

[KingKev]

It would be nice to get him into an extension, but he’s said he wants to go into free agency. Even if you have a framework for a deal sketched out, you can’t ever know who might swoop in and overbid. You absolutely cannot let him walk for nothing when he has value.

We’re in a rebuild, and anyone who can be flipped for assets should be.

Assuming Jak’s value is ~15mm when he becomes a free agent teams that will likely have cap space next summer to compete with us are the usual suspects: Indiana, Detroit, Orlando, Charlotte, Utah.

If the Grizz renounce Adams they could probably resign D Brooks and go after Jak also and he’d be a great fit.

A sign and trade next summer is possible but this isn’t the DDR scenario where you knew know one could pay him outright.

Get what you can for him now and if you want him back you can easily outbid his suitors.

[jjspur]

It would be nice to get him into an extension, but he’s said he wants to go into free agency. Even if you have a framework for a deal sketched out, you can’t ever know who might swoop in and overbid. You absolutely cannot let him walk for nothing when he has value.

We’re in a rebuild, and anyone who can be flipped for assets should be.

You're right he wants to test free agency and try to go to the best situation or for the most money, every athlete want that. However not all teams have money to throw around in free agency much like this year where the spurs and pacers have all the cap space. The situation will be a bit different next year. So the spurs still have a small advantage, to make decent trade but that advantage gets smaller as the year goes on to the trade deadline. Make a move now while we still have an advantage or watch that advantage slip away come February if nothing gets done. The spurs should be able to get decent value for Poeltl if they choose to make a trade, just don't trade him for like 2 second rounders 5 years from now. They could also try to resign him if they make a decent offer while its early. Either way they need to act soon or lose an advantage they won't have later.

[The Truth #6]

I would think teams would prefer to have Yak in training camp. He isn’t a scoring specialist like Crawford who just comes in and jacks up threes. Yak is a defensive anchor. Anyway. To me that suggests trading him now.

[tbdog]

I think Jak stays and we resign him. That's my theory.

[Ice009]

I'm excited to just watch our recent additions (Sochan, Branham, Wesley, Roby, Barlow) play, and up and coming guys (KJ, Vassell) continuing to grow. I'm actually optimistic about most of them taking a leap forward, except for one who shall remain nameless to avoid the sh!tstorm :lol

Who are you referring to to avoid the shitstorm?

[Atl Spur]

I think Jak stays and we resign him. That's my theory.

I really hope so!

[exstatic]

Who are you referring to to avoid the shitstorm?

Primo. He’s the current hate target here, in spite of the fact that he’s the same age as our flock of FRPs from this year.

[Atl Spur]

Primo. He’s the current hate target here, in spite of the fact that he’s the same age as our flock of FRPs from this year.

Hey, stop speaking logically!

[cjw]

The Doug signing was the most obvious stupid signing - so unfortunate. Oh well. At least SA has done well to realize their situation, extract solid value for others and still has some guys like Richardon/Jakob to keep going in that direction.

The FO has done a MUCH better job and turned me from hater to quasi-believer

In retrospect, it would have been better to just pay him more than the $14 million per year but make it a two year deal. If he were expiring at say $17-$18, he’d be an asset right now instead of a liability.

That said, if I’m the Lakers and in cap hell anyway, I’d do anything I can to get the Westbrick contract broken up into 2-3 smaller deals that can be traded separately. I’d have to canvas the league, but getting back two McDermott contracts for one Westbrook probably means not having to attach picks to dump Westbrook. Their idea that Westbrook had any positive value is insane. I need at least an unprotected first to absorb him unless you’re also taking back my dead weight.

[The Truth #6]

With the Lakers, it’s possible they are just gonna play Westbrook minimally or even put him on the shelf rather than to further jeopardize their draft picks. It sounded to me like there was some of the conflict between Pelinka and LeBron, because they didn’t make any trades at the trade deadline, and as time goes along, and teams are happy to see the Lakers fail, they might just have to deal with the mess they created. Of course there always have to be a scapegoat with the Lakers, and that makes me wonder about the new coach.

[exstatic]

With the Lakers, it’s possible they are just gonna play Westbrook minimally or even put him on the shelf rather than to further jeopardize their draft picks. It sounded to me like there was some of the conflict between Pelinka and LeBron, because they didn’t make any trades at the trade deadline, and as time goes along, and teams are happy to see the Lakers fail, they might just have to deal with the mess they created. Of course there always have to be a scapegoat with the Lakers, and that makes me wonder about the new coach.

Westbrook isn’t going to sit quietly on the sidelines like John Wall did. It isn’t in his nature. If they’re not going to play him at least rotation minutes, he’s going to be a problem.

[jjspur]

Westbrook isn’t going to sit quietly on the sidelines like John Wall did. It isn’t in his nature. If they’re not going to play him at least rotation minutes, he’s going to be a problem.

Unfortunately for Russ, he's been a bit of a problem wherever he's been, more so as he ages, loses his skills and importantly as he gets paid lots more for doing considerably less. Don't think that changes.

[The Truth #6]

We’ll see. Yeah, he’ll probably go crazy because that’s all he knows, but it’s possible Lebron makes peace with him. Or it is what it is, and he rants but they play better without him. If the team plays well without him, I would think that lowers his leverage. It’s going to be chaotic no matter what, but will the recent additions help them win more games…I think that’s the biggest issue in all this.

[wildbill2u]

Once a player like Poertl says he wants to try free agency (while we are in the midst of a rebuild) that should be a signal to trade him asap. He might be needed somewhere now, but as the season progresses and free agency looms large, his value as a trade asset will diminish as a lot GMs will want to buy him instead of trade away a good player and/or draft choice.

Personally, I don't like the sound of the desire to explore free agency because it makes clear that he realizes the situation and knows he might have a shot at a ring only on another team. Lots of players will take less money to get that ring if they have a chance.

[KingKev]

Once a player like Poertl says he wants to try free agency (while we are in the midst of a rebuild) that should be a signal to trade him asap. He might be needed somewhere now, but as the season progresses and free agency looms large, his value as a trade asset will diminish as a lot GMs will want to buy him instead of trade away a good player and/or draft choice.

Personally, I don't like the sound of the desire to explore free agency because it makes clear that he realizes the situation and knows he might have a shot at a ring only on another team. Lots of players will take less money to get that ring if they have a chance.

Don’t agree with any of this. His extension eligible deal is below market value so of course he will become a free agent. The Spurs have a track record of low balling home grown guys. Why wouldn’t he keep his options open?

You should also realize few desirable teams will have the cap space to sign him as he will garner > the MLE which is the most playoff teams are likely to have outside of the Grizz.

[wildbill2u]

King, he isn't a home grown guy. I suspect the reasoning behind low-balling some of those "homegrown" guys is the FO appeals to their loyalty. (Hey, we picked you when no-0ne else would give you a chance) or they have a better grasp of their talents fromm long exposeure or a tactical decision as to where they fit into the roster and plans, Can you say, "Lonnie?" I knew that you could.

Finally, I agree that there might be fewer teams with cap space which limits the upside cash market for him AT THIS TIME but things change as team try to adjust to cap limits during the run up to the trade deadline. But it only takes one team with the capspace and the need, right?

Basically, we have some similar opinions but vary on the timing maybe. I just think the time to pull the trigger is asap so the team and Jak can move on if the trade is inevitable.

[KingKev]

King, he isn't a home grown guy. I suspect the reasoning behind low-balling some of those "homegrown" guys is the FO appeals to their loyalty. (Hey, we picked you when no-0ne else would give you a chance) or they have a better grasp of their talents fromm long exposeure or a tactical decision as to where they fit into the roster and plans, Can you say, "Lonnie?" I knew that you could.

Finally, I agree that there might be fewer teams with cap space which limits the upside cash market for him AT THIS TIME but things change as team try to adjust to cap limits during the run up to the trade deadline. But it only takes one team with the capspace and the need, right?

Basically, we have some similar opinions but vary on the timing maybe. I just think the time to pull the trigger is asap so the team and Jak can move on if the trade is inevitable.

He seems pretty loyal and remember we will have the cap space to outbid anyone next summer. I’m very comfortable taking a first and a project for him right now especially since it will help our draft positioning.

I also think we have some leverage in a sign and trade next off-season so I’m not giving him away if I am Brian Wright.

The time to sell high on him was last deadline and probably misread that situation based on rumours.

At some point we are going to have to start using this cap space we will have annually till we get a couple of actual cornerstone players.

[tbdog]

McDermott will be a plus next season. The guy will put up some numbers.

[KingKev]

McDermott will be a plus next season. The guy will put up some numbers.

He’s a bum and who has never contributed to a good team. All the talk about him being a sniper and he’s never averaged over 5 3pt attempts a game in his career. If he gets that upto 8-10 attempts at 40% we can start talking about him being an asset that might get you an SRP. Otherwise he is a taller Brynn Forbes at 3x the cost.

[lefty20]

McBuckets will be an asset.

He will help the Tank by helping us earn an extra game or two in the L column that we would not otherwise achieve without him. Net negative players don't just grow on trees, we got good one here.

[offset formation]

McDermott having a negative trade value should come as a surprise to one. The guy’s making nearly $14M a year. PATFO never should’ve given him that contract to begin with. One of many errors by this front office over the past 4 years.

Far, far worse than the Patty 4 year/$50M deal.

[offset formation]

Definitely trade Yak now. Orchestrating a sign and trade next off-season seems like a long shot. He needs to be on a good team, bot giving us extra wins. We scored with Dejounte but not all trades are home runs. Take a first and move on.

Hard disagree on only 1 FRP..

1. Jak was a lottery pick, #9 to be specific only 6 years ago.
2. He's still young and ostensibly just coming into his peak years.
3. He's durable.
4. He's a solid defensive anchor in the right system/team.
5. He has 1 more year left on his very team friendly contract.
6. He is adept at finishing close to the rim and a solid PnR player.

If you trade him this year, he's worth 2 FRPs. Periodt.

[offset formation]

Lakers don't seem to understand that Westbrook is one of the most negative assets in the league.

It doesn't matter because they'll just continue getting the best free agents year after year. They get to survive, even thrive with incompetence, where that sinks the chances of every other team in the league. They're the yankees.

Also, bend over and I'll show you a negative asset..

[offset formation]

Primo. He’s the current hate target here, in spite of the fact that he’s the same age as our flock of FRPs from this year.

Hate target?

Speaking for myself, I don't hate the kid one bit. I like him. I think he's got a solid NBA future...as a wing. What I hate is the coaches trying to make him into a PG when his skill set clearly doesn't forecast him as one.

That is evident to probably half the board. It makes so.e probably dislike him but it shouldn't. It's not his fault. I'll be actively cheering for him as he suits up this season as at least an occasional primary ball handler, assuming reporting and PATFO interviews are correct. But I'lladmit to a chuckle or two when he fails miserably too as it will only help the tank.

[spurs10]

Whether the FO admits it or not, the Spurs aren't trying to win and whoever they land for picks will be bench fodder if they have talent. Maybe not getting people like Westbrook is a blessing in disguise. Maybe he can go to the Pacers or Jazz and win them a few games. I hope McBuckets shoots lights out and elevates his trade value. As has been discussed by Kev, he needs to be shooting 8-10 3s a game.

[DPG21920]

Keldon Injured:

1573760987563524096

[BatManu20]

Expected back for the season opener.


1573762854683119617

[KingKev]

I predict Keldon has a tough year. Nothing tells me he can be the main goto scorer in this team. Without DJ his job got much harder. He isn’t a goto scorer. If he can replicate last year but with better passing/play making, defense or rebounding that’s a win for me.

[BacktoBasics]

Hate target?

Speaking for myself, I don't hate the kid one bit. I like him. I think he's got a solid NBA future...as a wing. What I hate is the coaches trying to make him into a PG when his skill set clearly doesn't forecast him as one.

That is evident to probably half the board. It makes so.e probably dislike him but it shouldn't. It's not his fault. I'll be actively cheering for him as he suits up this season as at least an occasional primary ball handler, assuming reporting and PATFO interviews are correct. But I'lladmit to a chuckle or two when he fails miserably too as it will only help the tank.

I’m not completely sold that the team is trying to make him a PG. I think he was utilized in that capacity as a training exercise and to develop other areas of his game. It certainly provided him with a number of games from a different perspective.

If they really do try to make into a PG I’ll walk that back and agree with you and others here.

With DJ gone I think Tre steps in and we’ll see Primo predominately at the 2 with some ball handling duties. He absolutely needed to develop more poise and control in that area so it made sense to overwork him at the 1.

But we’ll see.

[scott]

I think Jak stays and we resign him. That's my theory.

My theory is Jak stays and walks for nothing...

[The Truth #6]

Hard disagree on only 1 FRP..

1. Jak was a lottery pick, #9 to be specific only 6 years ago.
2. He's still young and ostensibly just coming into his peak years.
3. He's durable.
4. He's a solid defensive anchor in the right system/team.
5. He has 1 more year left on his very team friendly contract.
6. He is adept at finishing close to the rim and a solid PnR player.

If you trade him this year, he's worth 2 FRPs. Periodt.

I see it as a choice between holding out to hopefully trade him for two first round picks but with the risk that you might not get anything and he walks in free agency for nothing. Personally, I’d rather just take the first round pick and not have him on the team, which would give us extra wins we don’t really need at this point in rebuilding.

[PuzzBeterson]

IF Keldon would miss time, what would the starting line up look like? Dougie at SF, Sochan PF?

[tbdog]

IF Keldon would miss time, what would the starting line up look like? Dougie at SF, Sochan PF?

I do think Vassell is the starting permanent 3 here. Primo and Jones are the starting backcourt. So it might just be Dougie starting PF or Collins in big lineups. Sochan would need to impress during training camp and pre season to get the start.

[John B]

I don’t wish anyone injury, but Keldon’s injury could force Pop to start his players in their natural positions with Devin in 2, McD in 3 and Sochan in 4. And ultimately Keldon could come back playing 3. I really like Sochan to show what he can do at 4. Ideally if they’re not in rebuilding and not trading Poeltl, I really want to see how effective a Sochan/Poeltl front court, how effective Poeltl be playing along a good size PF.

Regarding Keldon’s position, which would not be a popular opinion here, but I think he’s best suited as a Manu role 6th man. Granted he can knock down 3’s but his short of lateral speed is still suspect to cover faster 3’s. For now I’d start: Tre/Devin/McD/Sochan/Poeltl or Primo at 3 if they traded McD before season opener. Although a Keldon/Sochan/Poeltl frontcourt could be intriguing. Poeltl will really mess-up the tank season because a Tre,Devin,Keldon,Sochan,Poeltl lineup might be quite competitive on paper.

[The Truth #6]

Very possible that Roby starts with Keldon out. I just don’t see pop giving a rookie a starting job right out of the gate.

[Dex]

Very possible that Roby starts with Keldon out. I just don’t see pop giving a rookie a starting job right out of the gate.

Normally I would agree but this is the first top 10 rookie Pop has had since Tim Duncan, fills a real need for the Spurs, and it's not like we are trying to win games anyways.

I think anything is on the table, but yeah...sometimes Pop gonna Pop.

[TD 21]

I do think Vassell is the starting permanent 3 here. Primo and Jones are the starting backcourt. So it might just be Dougie starting PF or Collins in big lineups. Sochan would need to impress during training camp and pre season to get the start.

I don't know why anyone continues to think Primo will be doing anything but playing almost entirely at PG. Jones and Wesley, who is clearly slated to be spending much of the season in the G-League, are literally the only other options at the position.

As The Truth #6 said, expect Roby to start in the interim. It'll allow them to maintain the remainder of the projected rotation, a Pop staple.

[KingKev]

I don't know why anyone continues to think Primo will be doing anything but playing almost entirely at PG. Jones and Wesley, who is clearly slated to be spending much of the season in the G-League, are literally the only other options at the position.

As The Truth #6 said, expect Roby to start in the interim. It'll allow them to maintain the remainder of the projected rotation, a Pop staple.

Yeah whether they see him as a long term PG or not he’s going to have to spend some time there. JRich probably will too unless you think Hall and Kuhse have any type of role which is a stretch.

I think it’s very unlikely to see Tre and Primo even play together. Their minutes need to be staggered and Primo makes most sense coming off the bench to backup both the 1/2.

Tre Jones is about to have a break out year.

[tbdog]

I don't know why anyone continues to think Primo will be doing anything but playing almost entirely at PG. Jones and Wesley, who is clearly slated to be spending much of the season in the G-League, are literally the only other options at the position.

As The Truth #6 said, expect Roby to start in the interim. It'll allow them to maintain the remainder of the projected rotation, a Pop staple.

He played back up point limited times last year and it was not pretty. The guy would be hounded just bringing up the ball over the half court line.

[TD 21]

He played back up point limited times last year and it was not pretty. The guy would be hounded just bringing up the ball over the half court line.

I'm not advocating his doing so, I'm saying based on roster construction he's clearly going to be doing so.

[tonight...you]

He’s a bum and who has never contributed to a good team. All the talk about him being a sniper and he’s never averaged over 5 3pt attempts a game in his career. If he gets that upto 8-10 attempts at 40% we can start talking about him being an asset that might get you an SRP. Otherwise he is a taller Brynn Forbes at 3x the cost.
You may be right, but he's not trying to contribute to a good team right now.
This can skew numbers, inflate importance and this is just me pie-in-the-sky type of thinking, but I might not be wrong.

He might have an opportunity to inflate his worth on this team by the trade deadline.

[KingKev]

You may be right, but he's not trying to contribute to a good team right now.
This can skew numbers, inflate importance and this is just me pie-in-the-sky type of thinking, but I might not be wrong.

He might have an opportunity to inflate his worth on this team by the trade deadline.

Agreed. Shoot 8-10 3’s a game with a similar % and we won’t have to attach an SRP to offload him. He will never return you much in isolation. He’s best kept as a tank commander from my vantage point.

[jjspur]

Very possible that Roby starts with Keldon out. I just don’t see pop giving a rookie a starting job right out of the gate.

At least Roby has some experience and skill , Sochan has the skill but not a lot of experience at least not pro experience. Don't think the spurs have much of a plan, other than to give the kids some experience to see what they can do. When that doesn't work out, they'll throw out last years guys. When that doesn't work, well that's just called tanking 101. It's going to be a weird season.

[The Truth #6]

I don't know why anyone continues to think Primo will be doing anything but playing almost entirely at PG. Jones and Wesley, who is clearly slated to be spending much of the season in the G-League, are literally the only other options at the position.

As The Truth #6 said, expect Roby to start in the interim. It'll allow them to maintain the remainder of the projected rotation, a Pop staple.

That too. If Sochan’s defensive genius is evident immediately then he’ll definitely get more playing time, but Roby supposedly has defensive skills as well, and more importantly can shoot from the outside, which should help him get more playing time in the short term, but I could see it being for the whole year to be honest.

[itzsoweezee]

But but but people told me on here THE SPURS WILL NEVER TANK!

[exstatic]

But but but people told me on here THE SPURS WILL NEVER TANK!

The Spurs will never shut down healthy players, and intentionally lose games. They will Win and lose as many games as the current roster playing all out will dictate.

[itzsoweezee]

The Spurs will never shut down healthy players, and intentionally lose games. They will Win and lose as many games as the current roster playing all out will dictate.

Oh, so purposely fielding a bad roster is not tanking? It’s not intentionally losing games? You people will move the goalposts to whatever suits your agenda. Thankfully, the spurs are finally tanking. Deal with it

[Ariel]

The Spurs will never shut down healthy players, and intentionally lose games. They will Win and lose as many games as the current roster playing all out will dictate.
If roster make up is intentional and influences the outcome of games, and the moves the Spurs have done resulted in reduced chances of winning games, your often cited Occam's razor would suggest the Spurs are not trying to win...

[John B]

Oh, so purposely fielding a bad roster is not tanking? It’s not intentionally losing games? You people will move the goalposts to whatever suits your agenda. Thankfully, the spurs are finally tanking. Deal with it

I don’t think you know your Spurs well. Spurs are rebuilding but not purposely tanking. There is a big difference. They will NOT win a lot of games because of lack of experience but not purposely losing game. And that’s okay because their goal this year is not championship, as you probably already have heard from Pop in his media day. But Pop will teach and that means he will demand defense and good passing, positioning. It’s not going to be pretty, but they will compete, no question about it.

[Ariel]

I don’t think you know your Spurs well. Spurs are rebuilding but not purposely tanking. There is a big difference. They will NOT win a lot of games because of lack of experience but not purposely losing game. And that’s okay because their goal this year is not championship, as you probably already have heard from Pop in his media day. But Pop will teach and that means he will demand defense and good passing, positioning. It’s not going to be pretty, but they will compete, no question about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanking_(sports)

Tanking in sports refers to the practice of intentionally fielding non-competitive teams to take advantage of league rules that benefit losing teams
https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/what-tanking-history-nbas-controversial-lottery-strategy

"Tanking," as we are to understand it, is a team's intent to do less than everything it can to win. It is a concerted effort over several months (and perhaps several seasons) by a team to deliberately not be as good as it could be
I understand the meaning of tanking is open to interpretation, but there are clearly many people who actually would consider what the Spurs are doing as tanking. A more open and honest way of doing so, sure, but the intent is clear.

[Jordan Jackson]

Oh - The Spurs are tanking. Ain’t their first time at the rodeo either, contrary to popular belief.

[Mr. Body]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanking_(sports)

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/what-tanking-history-nbas-controversial-lottery-strategy

I understand the meaning of tanking is open to interpretation, but there are clearly many people who actually would consider what the Spurs are doing as tanking. A more open and honest way of doing so, sure, but the intent is clear.

They're not tanking.

[rjv]

let it be noted that there are several ST posters here that consider any rebuild the equivalent to a tank job.

[offset formation]

I don't know why anyone continues to think Primo will be doing anything but playing almost entirely at PG. Jones and Wesley, who is clearly slated to be spending much of the season in the G-League, are literally the only other options at the position.

As The Truth #6 said, expect Roby to start in the interim. It'll allow them to maintain the remainder of the projected rotation, a Pop staple.

Would love to see Sochan get some Point Forward opportunities. His handles are equal to or better now than Primo's prior to his rookie year. Plus, he appears to be a much better passer and has better vision. I've said before, but my dream is that Sochan is Ben Simmons, Jr. I know he certainly didn't play that in college but his court vision reminds me of Simmons.

[Ariel]

Would love to see Sochan get some Point Forward opportunities. His handles are equal to or better now than Primo's prior to his rookie year. Plus, he appears to be a much better passer and has better vision. I've said before, but my dream is that Sochan is Ben Simmons, Jr. I know he certainly didn't play that in college but his court vision reminds me of Simmons.
He's light years away in terms of handles from Ben Simmons and he's not as athletic, and those 2 things are not likely to change that drastically. His passing and overall feel for the game is great, though. Ithink a more realistic ceiling is a combo of Draymond Green & Boris Diaw.

[Ariel]

They're not tanking.
Persuasive.

[itzsoweezee]

Let it be known that there are homers on here who think it is only tanking when other teams do it. When the Spurs purposely field a bad team and try to trade away their good players, it’s “rebuilding”.

[lefty20]

Yeah idk why we're splitting hairs here.

It's obvious to everyone, including Pop, that Spurs are gonna lose a fuck ton of games this year. Call it what you want, all that matters is that this season is likely to result in the highest pick we've had since '97.

[offset formation]

He's light years away in terms of handles from Ben Simmons and he's not as athletic, and those 2 things are not likely to change that drastically. His passing and overall feel for the game is great, though. Ithink a more realistic ceiling is a combo of Draymond Green & Boris Diaw.

Think youll be surprised theyre much closer than you think. Ive seen dribbling videos of Sochan doing crossovers and between the leg stuff and it looks effortless.

I'm telling you that your perception of him is off on his handle.

[Atl Spur]

Ben is a natural point guard big dog…… Sochan is not.

[tbdog]

Sochan is a hard one to predict. We haven't seen him play in the summer league and his game is said to be unique. Rookie Diaw was athletic as all fuck. Sochan isn't athletic. His true position is unknown. His corner 3 is unknown. Usually rookie defenders are not good even when they are drafted for defense. Is he a Kyle Anderson with more upside and swagger? We don't know. Cannot wait to see how he plays.

[offset formation]

Ben is a natural point guard big dog…… Sochan is not.

Understand. But sometimes people surprise you. You know what surprised me about his game? His handle and passing ability. I am a fairly good judge of talent and am not normally far off on projecting someone's long term contributions. He could develop into a ball handling big...perhaps not ever as a full time Point Forward like Ben, but he has the talent to bring the ball up the floor and facilitate an offense from time to time undoubtedly.

[TD 21]

Would love to see Sochan get some Point Forward opportunities. His handles are equal to or better now than Primo's prior to his rookie year. Plus, he appears to be a much better passer and has better vision. I've said before, but my dream is that Sochan is Ben Simmons, Jr. I know he certainly didn't play that in college but his court vision reminds me of Simmons.

Sochan is more "connector" than point forward.

It'll be difficult enough to play him next to Poeltl and untenable if (when?) Jones starts too.

[Dejounte]

IMO, I think a lot of things about Sochan is better than advertised. I think, even after watching countless hours of his college tape, that it’s still not simple to forecast his NBA role. If people looked at DBook coming out of college— they would say microwave scorer, not number 1 option on offense.

I’ll give it 15 regular season games then we’ll know what Sochan is all about.

My personal opinion is that he has a better handle than he’s credited for. Not (yet? ever?) on the level of a primary or secondary facilitator, but enough to be a potential scoring threat if he adds new ways to score. I think he’s more of a natural ball handler than KJ, for example. Again, I could be way off. I’m not stuck to this perception and am very willing to wait and see how the first 15 games goes.

[Dejounte]

On the other hand, if Sochan’s help defense IS as good as advertised then the improvement on the team’s overall defense would be monumental. If lack of a real go to scorer was last year’s #1 weakness, then #2 was help defense. Opposing teams would often have easy buckets against Poeltl because none of his teammates offered support. Sochan’s IQ to stop a play before it happens will be huge for the team. I don’t think people really understand how many losses resulted from that.

and also, it’s a ridiculous assertion to say that last year’s team was near full health for most of the season and that could be so easy to debunk as easy as it was to debunk the myth that they were one of the worst defensive teams of the year. I don’t know why something like that gets repeated over and over but people cling to their perceptions so hard that it’s hard to change their minds even when confronted with facts.

Primary parts of last year’s team:
Poeltl
Murray
Keldon
White

Poeltl - out for 14 games. Team’s best interior defender and arguably the reason for holding the defense together. Was replaced by Eubanks who had no business being a starter.
Murray - also out for 14 games
Keldon - was pretty much an iron man last season. No comment here.
White - though he was traded, he was a big part of the offense and was replaced by players who weren’t accustomed to playing starter minutes/ playing with the other starters. A shake-up messes with the synergy on both ends.

arguably McDermott - he missed 31 games. though he faces heavy criticism, he was intended to be the starter all year long and provided balance to the starters by being the only other guy aside from Keldon (who didn’t start off as a great 3 pt shooter) that was a reliable shooter. White was an awful shooter all year long.

[KingKev]

On the other hand, if Sochan’s help defense IS as good as advertised then the improvement on the team’s overall defense would be monumental. If lack of a real go to scorer was last year’s #1 weakness, then #2 was help defense. Opposing teams would often have easy buckets against Poeltl because none of his teammates offered support. Sochan’s IQ to stop a play before it happens will be huge for the team. I don’t think people really understand how many losses resulted from that.

and also, it’s a ridiculous assertion to say that last year’s team was near full health for most of the season and that could be so easy to debunk as easy as it was to debunk the myth that they were one of the worst defensive teams of the year. I don’t know why something like that gets repeated over and over but people cling to their perceptions so hard that it’s hard to change their minds even when confronted with facts.

Primary parts of last year’s team:
Poeltl
Murray
Keldon
White

Poeltl - out for 14 games. Team’s best interior defender and arguably the reason for holding the defense together. Was replaced by Eubanks who had no business being a starter.
Murray - also out for 14 games
Keldon - was pretty much an iron man last season. No comment here.
White - though he was traded, he was a big part of the offense and was replaced by players who weren’t accustomed to playing starter minutes/ playing with the other starters. A shake-up messes with the synergy on both ends.

arguably McDermott - he missed 31 games. though he faces heavy criticism, he was intended to be the starter all year long and provided balance to the starters by being the only other guy aside from Keldon (who didn’t start off as a great 3 pt shooter) that was a reliable shooter. White was an awful shooter all year long.

I’ll concede on the defense but having two main players out for about 15% of the season is pretty damn good health in both absolute and relative terms for today’s NBA and especially during a period with strict covid protocols. We will be fortunate to replicate that this season.

[poopbox]

Since we tanking I am surprised we didn't bring back an all time tank commander like Forbes tbh

[Sugus]

Let it be known that there are homers on here who think it is only tanking when other teams do it. When the Spurs purposely field a bad team and try to trade away their good players, it’s “rebuilding”.

I won't say with certainty what the Spurs are or aren't doing - but it's IMO clearly closer to a rebuild than it is to a tank.

And you'll very quickly realize the difference once the Spurs start playing against actually tanking teams. Hope you don't join the B&M'g over them "not tanking hard enough" once that happens, tbh.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Sochan reminds me of a taller version of keldon johnson. His high arch release, dribble penetration and strong inside scoring.

[itzsoweezee]

I won't say with certainty what the Spurs are or aren't doing - but it's IMO clearly closer to a rebuild than it is to a tank.

And you'll very quickly realize the difference once the Spurs start playing against actually tanking teams. Hope you don't join the B&M'g over them "not tanking hard enough" once that happens, tbh.

There’s no need for these wishy washy definitions. If you can predict a team will have a bottom three record before the season even starts, the team is tanking. There is zero chance the spurs are not a bottom 3 team this year. They’ll guarantee it by shipping off poetlt before the season is over. There’s no need to pull an okc maneuver because the spurs don’t have anyone close to the level of SGA, thanks to decisions by the tanking front office

[exstatic]

There’s no need for these wishy washy definitions. If you can predict a team will have a bottom three record before the season even starts, the team is tanking. There is zero chance the spurs are not a bottom 3 team this year. They’ll guarantee it by shipping off poetlt before the season is over. There’s no need to pull an okc maneuver because the spurs don’t have anyone close to the level of SGA, thanks to decisions by the tanking front office

There will be teams that will pull the plug at or around the deadline, shutting down healthy players. The Spurs won’t do that. Even if they’re in the bottom 3 at that time, those 2-3 teams could easily slip behind them.

[KingKev]

There will be teams that will pull the plug at or around the deadline, shutting down healthy players. The Spurs won’t do that. Even if they’re in the bottom 3 at that time, those 2-3 teams could easily slip behind them.

Yep, for better or worse this is the truth. We’ve already sacrificed 3 lotteries and netted Primo, Vassell and Sochan. This is not a winning strategy.

[wildbill2u]

We may (er. scratch that) WILL lose a lot of games, but it won't be because Pop pulls players in order to lose. They don't teach that sort of character at the Air Force Academy. It will be because they simply don't have the horses to compete with most teams in the league. There will be folks on this platform that scream because Pop will continue to ask the players to play hard up to the limits of thier ability in the latter stages of games--and they might just steal a game or two.

[Ariel]

We may (er. scratch that) WILL lose a lot of games, but it won't be because Pop pulls players in order to lose. They don't teach that sort of character at the Air Force Academy. It will be because they simply don't have the horses to compete with most teams in the league. There will be folks on this platform that scream because Pop will continue to ask the players to play hard up to the limits of thier ability in the latter stages of games--and they might just steal a game or two.
Unfortunately this time it won't be enough, because many teams will do anything short of putting the ball in their own hoop to lose games. Utah tops the list, but OKC will sideline SGA for months with a sore eyelash if they have to, and Houston, Indiana and Orlando will likely follow, plus whichever team finds themselves behind by midseason. Being the 7th/8th worst record gives you about half the odds at Wembanyama / Henderson than being a bottom 3 team does, and this time around they'll have to get their hands dirty if they want to make things happen. The good old "we tried hard but came up short" will not suffice.

[illusioNtEk]

Dennis Rodman 2.0?

[Maddog]

IMO, I think a lot of things about Sochan is better than advertised. I think, even after watching countless hours of his college tape, that it’s still not simple to forecast his NBA role. If people looked at DBook coming out of college— they would say microwave scorer, not number 1 option on offense.

I’ll give it 15 regular season games then we’ll know what Sochan is all about.

My personal opinion is that he has a better handle than he’s credited for. Not (yet? ever?) on the level of a primary or secondary facilitator, but enough to be a potential scoring threat if he adds new ways to score. I think he’s more of a natural ball handler than KJ, for example. Again, I could be way off. I’m not stuck to this perception and am very willing to wait and see how the first 15 games goes.


Dennis Rodman 2.0?

No
Sochan 1.0- whatever that may be
Rodman was never a great help defender and would probably struggle in todays NBA where that is really needed. Also as mentioned above he flashes potential as a facilitator.
I don't regularly watch college ball, but his highlights and his short stent on Sunday are really intriguing.
Hard to peg down what he ends up being- or he may just end up be a very good player who is hard to categorize.

[The Truth #6]

With Sochan, he's definitely active on defense. And that chase down block was very impressive; I think he has at the least functional athleticism. Or he just really hates Josh Christopher. He blocked him three times in that first preseason game. Anyway, he doesn't seem overwhelmed by the moment or back down from challenges as far as I can tell, though I heard a podcaster complain about that because evidently Jabari gave him an elbow in the first preseason game and Sochan didn't respond, or something.

Anyway, the guy is not afraid, which I guess should have been evident by his hair style. He could quickly become a leader on the team, as odd as that sounds, given the complete void of leadership that presently exists.

[itzsoweezee]

There will be teams that will pull the plug at or around the deadline, shutting down healthy players. The Spurs won’t do that. Even if they’re in the bottom 3 at that time, those 2-3 teams could easily slip behind them.

The spurs won’t do that because they don’t need to. They purposely constructed a roster that is guaranteed to be one of the worst in the league. They don’t get extra points for getting rid of good players. It’s functionally the same thing as not playing good players.

The cognitive dissonance among spurstalkers is bordering on disturbing at this point.