Game Thread: Pre-Season Game #2 - 10/6 Spurs vs. Magic 7pm CDT

[Leetonidas]

Revving up the tank :flag: lets get another L tomorrow

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[tonight...you]

Revving up the tank :flag: lets get another L tomorrow
We gotta lose pre-season too?
Damn... tanking's hard.

[KingKev]

Magic have some solid length upfront between Franz, Bamba, Paulo, Isaac (if healthy) and WCJ. That’s a nice young core if PB is the real deal on the offensive end.

Still frustrated we didn’t take a chance on Bamba this summer given our cap situation. He and Jalen Smith were two cheap, possible high reward players at a position of need.

[The Truth #6]

Magic have some solid length upfront between Franz, Bamba, Paulo, Isaac (if healthy) and WCJ. That’s a nice young core if PB is the real deal on the offensive end.

Still frustrated we didn’t take a chance on Bamba this summer given our cap situation. He and Jalen Smith were two cheap, possible high reward players at a position of need.

I'm not upset with Roby in that he seems like he will be a rotation player if not starter for us during the tank. Roby seems like what Pop wanted Trey Lyles to be. (Take that for what it's worth). And he could end up being more useful than the other players, I suppose.

But yes, Jalen Smith seemed like an obvious candidate to pursue. I wonder if they were fixated on Zollins and didn't want another reclamation project? It's weird.

[heyheymymy]

:flag:

NO SPURS NO!!

[Dex]

We gotta lose pre-season too?
Damn... tanking's hard.

We can't risk establishing a winning culture.

[jjspur]

I've seen highlights of the Magic's last game. They don't look bad at all. They at least come to play to win, which is more than I can say for the spurs ( I know its only one game but man did they look bad). Hopefully no one hits the side of the backboard in this game. Our shooting really sucks now that Chip Engelland left for more money.

[Chomag]

WE are going to make the magic look like a contender arnt we... oh well the tank goes on!

[Leetonidas]

1578062983124914177

no official telecast but feed on league pass means we should be able to find a the game streaming online somewhere

[KingKev]

League Pass has been absolutely shit these last few years for pre-season games. I don’t even know why I subscribe.

[Mugen]

:flag:

NO SPURS NO!!

:lol

[Mugen]

My girl Kori with the gambling advice, love it tbh!

[KingKev]

My girl Kori with the gambling advice, love it tbh!

hahah this is the first year I will actively bet against the Spurs if it makes financial sense. As a die hard Spurs fan is that faux pas?

Made a quick 2 hundy Sunday.

[John B]

Is it going to be a lob party on Poeltl tonight? Damn

[Mugen]

hahah this is the first year I will actively bet against the Spurs if it makes financial sense. As a die hard Spurs fan is that faux pas?

Made a quick 2 hundy Sunday.

I think it was 2019 or 2020 when Bryn started every single game and Pop absolutely refused to play Dejounte and DWhite together. It was the easiest 2-3 months of gambling that I can remember betting against the Spurs tbh :lol

[KingKev]

Is it going to be a lob party on Poeltl tonight? Damn

Vassell about to go for 30/12/10/18/6. Mamba mentality.

[timvp]

Damn, after watching Wemby, I don't even want the Spurs to win preseason games, tbh :lol

[heyheymymy]

who's got that solid linkage

[timvp]

Same starting lineup...

[timvp]

Not sure there are even 100 fans in the stands :lol

[heyheymymy]

Some League news but damn Draymond punched Poole in the face at practice

[Dejounte]

Will be able to follow this game more closely than the last.

[jeebus]

https://vimeo.com/757763186

[emanueldavidginobili]

NBA League Pass is working for the game tonight.

[Russ]

https://vimeo.com/757763186

Great link! (As opposed to the usual.)

[heyheymymy]

game just came up on methstreams.com good to go

[jeebus]

Great link! (As opposed to the usual.)

It's just the jumbotron stream but that's typical of Spurs preseason broadcasts unfortunately

[lefty20]

NBA League Pass is working for the game tonight.

How's the audio quality for u?

Mine sounds like shit. Video is fine.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Video is good as well, audio for sure delayed a bit

[baseline bum]

This is the first year I have ever watched Spurs games to see the other team. God this team is so fucking devoid of talent. Even in other losing years at least the team had guys like Alvin Robertson or Dominique Wilkins but this year? :lmao

[heyheymymy]

love that SPURS 50 court art

The gold is for the rings

[jeebus]

Spurs might have to bench Vassell if he over produces

[heyheymymy]

Vass squares the shoulders on a good jumper

[heyheymymy]

2 drives by JR now where he bobbles a TO

[baseline bum]

Spurs might have to bench Vassell if he over produces

I'm confident he can be quality empty stats

[heyheymymy]

PB5 gonna be the real deal imo

Suggs was a bad pick

[Dejounte]

Almost every possession by Vassell so far has been a bad one. Dude is not convincing me that he is ready for that bigger role.

[heyheymymy]

KBD making his case to stay on wow

[heyheymymy]

Tre Jones does not look like he has the flow from the end of last season at all

[timvp]

McDermott the sixth man . . . .

Looks like there might be a new backup point guard tonight. Hmm...

[timvp]

That starting lineup is so bad. If they don't hit contested threes, they really can't do much else.

[timvp]

So Josh Richardson is the backup point guard . . .

[jeebus]

Sochan in makes me happy

[heyheymymy]

JRich is running point right now

[heyheymymy]

They ran Jrich at point a little towards the end last season and it was mixed. He was getting burned on D

[emanueldavidginobili]

The fact that J-Rich is playing point right now definitely makes me think the Spurs are actually going to play Primo at the point this year.

[heyheymymy]

wow

JR
Vass
McD
Sochan
Zollins

[emanueldavidginobili]

I love that Sochan is trying to create his own shot.

[Dejounte]

These are some BIG lineups. Tre, McDermott, Roby, Sochan, Collins

[stephen jackson]

What da he’ll is going on here

[timvp]

Roby backup SF? Interesting ... especially since he played center last season, tbh.

[heyheymymy]

Oh wow Roby is playing SF right now


Roby
Sochan
Zollins

[GB20]

The spurs are moving the ball really well, totally different team from last game.

[Dejounte]

The Spurs are running “reverse position-less”: Their PFs are playing SF, their SFs are playing SG, their SGs are playing PG. Is this the new way?

[heyheymymy]

Spurs roster has some pretty good balance. Lots of guys that can shift up or slide down a position

[heyheymymy]

well gave it right back but that was a solid half court trap that led to the steal

[timvp]

Roby's decision-making in transition needs a lot of work . . .

[heyheymymy]

the lineup is still pretty athletic for its size

[Dejounte]

That full court press by Sochan on Cole… bigs don’t normally do that.

[LeBowen]

This is bad, hooefully they get it together for actual games. Can't have such big leads after just one quarter.

Bring back Marco and Bryn, tbh. Double digits in W column are unacceptable this season.

[PhantomDashCam]

Full Court press…and with length too.
Sochan always seemingly in the right place.

[Dejounte]

I like this new lineup

Wesley
Vassell
Roby
KBD
Poeltl

[Dejounte]

Very nice pass from Wes to KBD!

[PhantomDashCam]

KBD in “shutting arena down” form. :wow

[Dejounte]

That lockdown defense by Sochan on Hampton!

[Maddog]

Full Court press…and with length too.
Sochan always seemingly in the right place.

Sort of a quiet intelligent intensity
He might really be the guy who's stats don't convey his impact

[emanueldavidginobili]

KBD might be enticing for some teams come the trade deadline

[heyheymymy]

remember that lakers game KBD went off

[emanueldavidginobili]

Will Branham make an appearance in the first half this preseason lmao

[jeebus]

Now this is the Spurs basketball I want to see

[Chomag]

Why are Pop's line up rotations always so shit

[Dejounte]

That drive by Sochan looked good. Too bad it didn’t go in.

[John B]

let's go

[KingKev]

Holy fk this team is BAD.

Sochan has incredible upside as a defender though.

Jak looks like shit without DJ spoon feeding him.

Vassell has shown nothing to warrant the exuberant expectations this board has for him. He might be more overrated than Primo.

[John B]

Zollins can't buy a basket

[John B]

that was ugly

[Dejounte]

Tre is playing better than last game but Collins continues to free fall. He’s playing completely selfish and without a brain out there.

[stephen jackson]

No one looks like a real rotation player. They all suck lol

[Russ]

Is Branham injured or has he committed some sin?

[John B]

I hate to say Spurs cheerleaders are not the prettiest :lmao

[timvp]

I like how this is Pop's version of throwing the rookies in the fire :lol

[Russ]

I hate to say Spurs cheerleaders are not the prettiest :lmao

I don't think they're cheerleaders (anymore).

[John B]

I don't think they're cheerleaders (anymore).

I mean everything just went downhill :cry

[objective]

Is Branham injured or has he committed some sin?

Biggest sin of all: making people wonder Pop didn't play him more and making Pop look bad.

[baseline bum]

Sochan in makes me happy

Get NieR Automata on Switch man, that game is so great and just came out today.

[KingKev]

Devin Vassell wouldn’t start on 25 other NBA teams.

[emanueldavidginobili]

High key this team might be a lock for a top 3 pick in the draft, minimum.

[John B]

Vassell!!

[Dejounte]

Did Banchero lose his mojo? Looks bad.

[KingKev]

Vassell!!

He looks like shit.

[KingKev]

Did Banchero lose his mojo? Looks bad.

Jabari Smith stole it

[stephen jackson]

How do we not have one man that can dunk. It’s shocking

[John B]

Did Jakob practice his shooting during the offseason??

[KingKev]

Jak looks terrible on both sides of the ball.

[stephen jackson]

You would think after twenty years of getting abused by athletic big men you’d think we’d wanna have one but nah not the spurs

[spurraider21]

Lol vassell hype. Of course he’s looked good in camp. He’s up against g leaguers

[Dejounte]

Wesley showing he’s the second best (maybe someday the best) natural point guard on the team.

[GB20]

Guys! I think we got a special player on sochan.

[KingKev]

Sochan’s upside is sky high.

[Dejounte]

Wesley just outrebounded Mo Bamba.

Malaki with the beautiful jumper.

[Dejounte]

Has Wesley improved his ability to draw fouls? Seems like he’s getting a lot of calls tonight.

[Dejounte]

The rookie trio have good chemistry on the court. No one gets in the other person’s way.

[GB20]

It looks like our young guys are better than the Magic’s young players.

[tonight...you]

Almost every possession by Vassell so far has been a bad one. Dude is not convincing me that he is ready for that bigger role.
He was doing the same, forcing things, at the beginning of the last pre-season and the first few of the season and then settled into what was working for him.

Pre-season is for looking and striving for your limits.
Then settle in to win games as you learn about yourself.

[tonight...you]

Has Wesley improved his ability to draw fouls? Seems like he’s getting a lot of calls tonight.
Ref crew maybe also.

Remember that one guy who kicked Timmy out for laughing while on the bench?

[Dejounte]

ok, game is pretty much done.

Decent bounce back game by Tre.

Center play between Poeltl and Collins was subpar.

All three rookies shined tonight. Wesley looked super competent as a PG, Sochan had great defensive possessions, and Malaki can be relied on for a bucket.

KBD has pretty much secured a spot on the roster. People don’t like to give him credit, but if he’s become a reliable shooter then he’s a rotation player for sure.

Roby sucks at transition passes. Surprising that he’s getting minutes at the 3.

[objective]

Overreaction too early hot takes:

Wesley might have the worst touch for a spur in over a decade. No vertical explosion plus no touch, not very enjoyable to watch

And unpopular opinion, but I'm contextually unimpressed by Sochan. Should be a good glue guy and that's more or less it. Unremarkable size, unremarkable length, unremarkable vertical pop, doesn't project as a scorer. Not a tremendous standout in advanced stats with blocks or steals. I'm not down on him like I was with Luka, think he'll have a solid career, I just don't share the excitement over him or see anything special. Don't see what the big deal is.

If he starts and if Keldon is the SF then maybe he looks better and I'll be able to see what everyone else sees.

[SPURt]

Kuhse looking embarrassing

[stephen jackson]

Yeah sochan definitely is no savior, we are developing him for a championship contender down the line.

[KingKev]

The biggest takeaway from tonight is that our 3 rookies have upside.

The remainder of this team are basically deep bench guys. Jak and JRich combined might only be worth 1 FRP.

[DesignatedT]

Gotta remember how young some of these dudes are. I like what I see from Sochan and can see him turning into a really good pro down the line. Not superstar potential but not sure anyone ever said that.

[KingKev]

Kori is 1/2 re gambling advice.

[jjspur]

Kuhse looking embarrassing

He'll be the first cut. I expect Langford to be gone soon also.

[Mr. Body]

Really unfortunate Keldon and Primo out. Need to figure out the starting chemistry into the bench guys, spacing, all that. Interesting to see Roby and Sochan out there together. Feel some of this is necessary if Poeltl won't be around much longer and Zollins is always a question mark. I have a lot of doubts about Vassell. The young guys to me clearly need to be on the main team and getting playing time.

[Seventyniner]

High key this team might be a lock for a top 3 pick in the draft, minimum.

Someone needs to tell them that going 3-79 won't get them zeroth pick.

[TD 21]

Is Branham injured or has he committed some sin?

Yeah, he has this thing called talent, a foreign concept around here.

[stephen jackson]

Yeah, he has this thing called talent, a foreign concept around here.
Lol that’s what it seems like

[John B]

Seriously Poeltl looked like he gained weight. I’ve mentioned that I’m leaning on keeping him if Sochan/Poeltl click. But looks like Poeltl lookimh bad coming from off-season… again

[Rito3d30]

Really unfortunate Keldon and Primo out. Need to figure out the starting chemistry into the bench guys, spacing, all that. Interesting to see Roby and Sochan out there together. Feel some of this is necessary if Poeltl won't be around much longer and Zollins is always a question mark. I have a lot of doubts about Vassell. The young guys to me clearly need to be on the main team and getting playing time.

Seems both of them are playing in the last two preseason games as per Pop

[ragas]

Seriously Poeltl looked like he gained weight. I’ve mentioned that I’m leaning on keeping him if Sochan/Poeltl click. But looks like Poeltl lookimh bad coming from off-season… again

I don‘t say that you‘re right, but why should he even care to be in top shape now? To loose 60+ games?

[Atl Spur]

Let Wesley develop in austin, Sochan will be a solid pro, and Malachi will need some split duty between austin / San Antonio. Our defense will be better than expected….. oh yeah, Roby looks good minus the bonehead passes!!!!!

[slick'81]

It looks like our young guys are better than the Magic’s young players.

atleast theres that

[ismael-robert]

Alpha Doug doing alpha things as I've always said and leading the team
And thanks sochan n tre for proving me right when everyone said yall couldn't play together cause weren't shooters n I said only poetl nonshooter

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FecMRKaWIAEzPsO?format=jpg&name=large

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1578244564204273666

[Dejounte]

I’m getting the sense that KBD is the starting four next to Keldon on opening night. He’s much improved. It’s like a version of Kawhi before he blew up. Long arms, instincts on defense, shoots 3s.

[duncan2150]

I’m getting the sense that KBD is the starting four next to Keldon on opening night. He’s much improved. It’s like a version of Kawhi before he blew up. Long arms, instincts on defense, shoots 3s.

I agree, if he can be a decent shooter he totally deserves a roster spot.

I'm not concerned about the rookies, they all shows some good things. Give them time and playing time and they will be good imo.

The biggest concern for me is the play of our "vets" : Vassell particularly, i still have big doubts about him and Primo being really good players ( better than just starters).

Poetl looked bad also....

We'll see but i hope some players will develop well.

[Dejounte]

KBD could very well be our Danny Green part II, tbh

[jeebus]

Gotta remember how young some of these dudes are. I like what I see from Sochan and can see him turning into a really good pro down the line. Not superstar potential but not sure anyone ever said that.

Nope. People have seen enough with these two preseason games.

Blow the team up and start over.

[wildbill2u]

Our #9 pick, Sochan, failed to take some open shots and got three out of 6 attempted shots blocked. A couple were bunnies when he got in close to the basket and one on a perimeter attempt that looked really bad. He's no K Bates-Diop fer sure. :lmao I;d say his defense was average. When you're a #9 pick and the main thing people talk about is what color you dyed your hair for this game, then you might not be what we are looking for or hoped to get. I remain to be convinced that we made the right choice over Tari Eason who continues to shine in Houston after a great Summer League. Perhaps "wild and erratic"" combined with physical talent simply means playing with a lot of energy and making good things happen. Oh well, we will have lots of time to think about that in the future, eh?

Surprise player of the night. Dieng made some veteran plays/passes and seemed to be directing the defense in his short stint--but it is scary to think he might be a keeper for this team.

I think we will be making excuses for Vassel this season simply because we want someone to become a seriously productive player on this team. It doesn't matter that this is preseason for him. It was for everyone and he just looked below par on his shooting. YOu have to believe he was working on his shot all summer and we get 1-6 on 3s?

Wesley keeps using his speed to get himself in trouble faster than other players can, but at least he is picking up some fouls. It is going to be hard to develop a floater (rumored) at warp speed. Good luck with that.

Collins looked ok. Had some nice footwork on a couple of shots and didn't suck on defense. Outplayed Poertle IMHO> but that wasn't hard on a night where Poertle didn't bring it at all.

Has anyone EVER seen Langford do anything at all that looks like he should be on an NBA team? Anything? Anyone? Any Thing?

If Pop truly will use the competition between players to determine the lineups, the next game should be interesting.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Our #9 pick, Sochan, failed to take some open shots and got three out of 6 attempted shots blocked. A couple were bunnies when he got in close to the basket and one on a perimeter attempt that looked really bad. He's no K Bates-Diop fer sure. :lmao I;d say his defense was average. When you're a #9 pick and the main thing people talk about is what color you dyed your hair for this game, then you might not be what we are looking for or hoped to get. I remain to be convinced that we made the right choice over Tari Eason who continues to shine in Houston after a great Summer League. Perhaps "wild and erratic"" combined with physical talent simply means playing with a lot of energy and making good things happen. Oh well, we will have lots of time to think about that in the future, eh?.
How can you watch the NBA for 20 years and draw conclusions about the draft from 2 preseason games?

[heyheymymy]

Saw Blake Wesley take a moving screen from Bamba and also take the charge from Bol. Both resulted in the Spurs getting the ball back. Loved Wes getting to the line often too. That's gonna come in handy when SA needs to slow the game down, get Blake established, and get some opposing players in early foul trouble.

Also LOVED that assist from Blake where he finds Sochan in the corner for three. There was a bit of a penetration collapse and then Blake had the slick vision to spot and fling that pass out across to the open corner guy. Heady stuff early on from Blake Wesley.

[spurraider21]

KBD could very well be our Danny Green part II, tbh
a danny green type has no business on a tanking/rebuilding team tbh

id be very disappointed if kbd plays big minutes this year. this is the year to give heavy minutes to keldon (to try to develop is a more primary option... im skeptical he has that in him), vassell, branham, roby, let them shit the bed, and learn from it all while we start stacking L's

does KBD really have a long term future here?

[Chinook]

Why does KBD have less of a future than Roby? Also, KBD is nowhere near LDN. If he were though, you certainly don't cut him to tank. You boost his value and then trade him. We're talking about a two-person draft. There's no difference between being the worst and fourth-worst team in that regard. If you have valuable players you play them. KBD isn't going to be goo enough to really win games for the team. Hand-wringing over a guy playing well is ridiculous.

[mo7888]

Why does KBD have less of a future than Roby? Also, KBD is nowhere near LDN. If he were though, you certainly don't cut him to tank. You boost his value and then trade him. We're talking about a two-person draft. There's no difference between being the worst and fourth-worst team in that regard. If you have valuable players you play them. KBD isn't going to be goo enough to really win games for the team. Hand-wringing over a guy playing well is ridiculous.

I may be wrong but I think he's just saying KBD is to good to play here this year and will cost us losses..... he's wrong but still...

[Dejounte]

Uhh of course KBD is nowhere near the accomplished 3-time champ Danny Green. But Danny Green was at one point almost out of the league and even in his first few years where he became good, it wasn’t like he was at his peak yet. Saying KBD could become that isn’t blasphemy.

[objective]

KBD and Roby are both fringe players, neither belong in an NBA rotation

[Chinook]

I may be wrong but I think he's just saying KBD is to good to play here this year and will cost us losses..... he's wrong but still...

I take it more that SR21 is saying the Spurs should avoid playing KBD because he can't be part of a rebuilding team/future solution. My issue is that he lists Roby as someone who could be part of the solution even though they actually play pretty similar roles. In fact, if the point is to try to lose, then I would say Roby has a better chance of breaking out than KBD, though I think there's room to give them all run.


Uhh of course KBD is nowhere near the accomplished 3-time champ Danny Green. But Danny Green was at one point almost out of the league and even in his first few years where he became good, it wasn’t like he was at his peak yet. Saying KBD could become that isn’t blasphemy.

Danny's peak years were arguably 2012, 2015 and 2016. Those are his third, sixth and seventh seasons. Keita is entering year five. I'd argue he's pretty comfortably that he's behind Green's curve. Moreover, though, I think using Green as a measuring stick implies that having his career arc is a more realistic goal than a player developing into a star, and I don't agree. I think stars and role-players tend to be forged rather than molded. Certainly there are other role-players in the league who weren't obvious players like Bowen, Tucker and Covington. But highlighting those examples overlooks the sheer amount of detritus that teams sift through. While the chances that a team can find a Danny Green aren't impossible or anything, the odds that a random scrub is the next Danny Green is actually pretty low. Three-and-D wings are actually pretty highly drafted nowadays. Guys who fill those roles around the league are as likely to be lotto picks as they are to be drafted after the first.

I am one of the bigger KBD fans on this forum. I do think there's a role for him in the league, especially if he can get his shot down. But he's more of a helpful defender who contributes to his team's rebounding than he is a lock-down defender and ball-hawk. I hope the Spurs hold onto him and that he justifies them doing so. But even an actualized KBD would be a starkly different defender than LDN. I would put him much closer to a more agile Kyle Anderson on that end.

[rankingtear]

KBD could develop into Dorian Finney Smith. There are other players in the NBA beside Danny Green and Bryn Forbes.

[dbestpro]

Maybe if people would jsut remember that pre-season is nothing more than practice sessions then perhaps they would not freak out so much.

[KingKev]

KBD pribably doesn’t become a Danny Green type player but if he was going to it’ll be because he is on a winning team surrounded by top NBA players and he fills a role.

While the Spurs have a very impressive track record in player development some of that development still needs to be attributed to Timmy, Tony, Manu, David Robinson etc. Playing with that level of talent (and character) gave other guys opportunities to carve out important niches.

These things don’t work in a silo. There are synergies to be realized by having great players, great coaches, great medical staff in the franchise etc where it’s easier to assimilate, develop grow guys be because your have a few pillars in place.

[Ariel]

Even if KBD can achieve Danny Green type success, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Much better use of resources to allocate that playing time to develop Sochan and others.

[KingKev]

KBD is probably more Danny Green than Trey Lyles. At the risk of flip flopping i’m warming up to the idea he has more ptoential to someone like Eubanks or Forbes who were still able to stick around linger than most expected.

[Chinook]

Even if KBD can achieve Danny Green type success, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Much better use of resources to allocate that playing time to develop Sochan and others.

LDN was way better than any of the Spurs' prospects can expect to be. Dude is in the top 8-15 players in team history. Most lotto picks don't reach that height. If KBD can be him, you don't piss that away to be impatient about a guy who might be the next Lamar Odom or MWP (either of whom would be a really nice plateau for Sochan). Even if Sochan does have that pathway, it wouldn't be ruined by not forcing everyone else aside for him as a rookie. Dude can't even get a shot off right. In this scenario where KBD explodes with the Spurs this year, you 1000-percent play him, feature him then trade him. It would be ridiculous to do anything else. There's a difference between hoping for the best with prospects and fetishizing them to the point of ascribing a level of importance to them they haven't earned.

It's also a note that Green had to play his way onto the team and beat out multiple players the Spurs had more invested in. When guys show themselves to be a cut above, you don't just piss that away. Robert Covington is the obvious example, but Dorian Finny Smith was mentioned earlier too, and when the Mavs found him, they were in the midst of their two worst seasons in a while. When they found Maxi Klebar, they were in their worst season. Sure, if they draft Wemby or Hendy, they might be the main driver of the team's turnaround. But as far the as the other pieces go, history suggests that it'd be a combination of vets already on the team, new additions and random guys who step up to the moment.

[Ariel]

KBD's career 3P% at almost 27 is about the same that Sochan achieved at 19, but somehow he makes 4/5 3s in one preseason game and he's on the path to greatness while (Sochan) "can't even get a shot off right"? And then you argue "difference between hoping for the best with prospects and fetishizing them to the point of ascribing a level of importance to them they haven't earned"? :lol Oh the irony...

[TD 21]

KBD's career 3P% at almost 27 is about the same that Sochan achieved at 19, but somehow he makes 4/5 3s in one preseason game and he's on the path to greatness while (Sochan) "can't even get a shot off right"? And then you argue "difference between hoping for the best with prospects and fetishizing them to the point of ascribing a level of importance to them they haven't earned"? :lol Oh the irony...

Somehow, the Spurs always know better than every other team.

[jjspur]

KBD is probably more Danny Green than Trey Lyles. At the risk of flip flopping i’m warming up to the idea he has more ptoential to someone like Eubanks or Forbes who were still able to stick around linger than most expected.

KBD isn't great at anything but he does work hard and does what pop asks of him. He's limited talent wise but every so often he surprises us with a decent game. Not bad for a minimum salary player. Green did the same and got lots better at doing it to the point of becoming a valuable asset.

Forbes and Eubanks have basically one skill and make the most of it. Lyles has been on how many teams now ?

[Chinook]

KBD's career 3P% at almost 27 is about the same that Sochan achieved at 19, but somehow he makes 4/5 3s in one preseason game and he's on the path to greatness while (Sochan) "can't even get a shot off right"? And then you argue "difference between hoping for the best with prospects and fetishizing them to the point of ascribing a level of importance to them they haven't earned"? :lol Oh the irony...

We don't need another poster who constantly takes people out of context and responds dishonestly.

1) "Getting a shot off" and shooting a good percentage are completely different things. Sochan is likely struggling to get the ball out of his hands without it getting blocked right now. That's okay. It's not a sign he sucks or is irredeemable or anything like that. But it is a sign that his developmental curve wouldn't be negatively impacted by taking a role off the bench or in Austin for the time being. He's not just a KBD away from getting big minutes. Branham and Dieng are also guys who could use minutes without even considering Barlow and Hall or shifting everyone over to give Wesley a chance. The only folks he's hurting by not playing big minutes right away are fans like you who are deferring their entertainment this year in hopes of getting more in future years.

2) Mofo, you set up a hypothetical where KBD would be Danny Green, saying that even if that were the case it wouldn't be worth giving him the nod over Sochan and other young guys. It's that response to the hypothetical that is ridiculous. Bates-Diop isn't Danny Green, and he's extremely unlikely to ever reach those heights. I've already said that. But it's also true that Sochan isn't likely to reach that level either. So if you're going to create a scenario where KBD does that, the "juice is worth the squeeze" because that version of KBD would be very good and very valuable. It would be worth it to encumber Sochan's entire rookie contract for that, but KBD's only signed for one year, so that's not even necessary. Having a guy who's far away from needing a big role to take a back seat for a year while the Spurs experience such a boon from a guy on a minimum contract isn't even a decision. We don't live in that scenario, with KBD, Jones or any of the other vets on the team. But too many people seem to think such a scenario is bad, and that's completely missing the trees for the forest.

3) That last quote isn't even a sentence. Yes, I argue that we should want the best players on the team to play and play well rather than worrying about giving the young guys the bulk of the minutes. This is me who's arguing that -- the guy who was extremely skeptical of the d-league last year. It's one thing when you have a blue-chip on a superstar track. It's another thing when it's just the guys who happen to be the youngest players on the team. The Hinkie Sixers pissed away how many high picks on guys who sat behind or were traded away to make room for second-rounders or UDFAs? I want to be clear that I hated that team for that era. I'm glad Hinkie's out of the league. But so many fans on this board want the Spurs to adopt his philosophy, but they want to discard that Hinkie was never married to any of his picks (ever -- look at MCW -- but especially) before they earned it. He would certainly be looking to trade away the vets, but he would also not look at any of the rookies and bypass showcasing vets to give them playing time. It's bad asset-management on top of being bad roster-management. I hope that all of the Spurs' prospects pan out and end up being the foundation to the team's next contending era. But it's not a certainly that ANY of these guys will be around for that pivot, and there's no reason to assume that if someone is, it'll be one of the rookies. That's just fetishism.

[TD 21]

Generalities that shouldn't apply to a team this bad. It's not a catastrophe that Sochan seems likely to start the season seeing at best spot minutes, it's that it's another sign of archaic ways continuing to rule the day despite finally bottoming out.

This would apply if we were talking year 3 Sochan, who's underwhelmed and the shine of being the highest pick in a quarter century has long since worse off. But we're talking year 1, on probably the worst team in the league, with two journeymen as the competition.

Hand him 20 mpg immediately and if he struggles mightily for 4-6 weeks, reassess at that point.

[Kevin]

Everyone supports tanking until they start losing games. Glad the Spurs are off the Murray/White treadmill. Its going to get worse before it gets better but come June it will hopefully be worth it.

[Chinook]

Generalities that shouldn't apply to a team this bad. It's not a catastrophe that Sochan seems likely to start the season seeing at best spot minutes, it's that it's another sign of archaic ways continuing to rule the day despite finally bottoming out.

This would apply if we were talking year 3 Sochan, who's underwhelmed and the shine of being the highest pick in a quarter century has long since worse off. But we're talking year 1, on probably the worst team in the league, with two journeymen as the competition.

Hand him 20 mpg immediately and if he struggles mightily for 4-6 weeks, reassess at that point.

The team being bad is an assumption. I think it's a good assumption, but that's not one that was being made for most of this discussion. We're not talking about the likely real scenario where the Spurs suck, KBD isn't good and there's nothing standing in the way of Sochan getting minutes. We're talking about the unlikely scenario where the Spurs don't suck that badly in large part because folks like KBD break out. In those scenarios, you don't tear your hair out because you're not losing enough games, hit the panic button and bench KBD to give Sochan minutes he may or may not be able to handle. You feature KBD and then either trade him or keep him.

Again, this is not a likely scenario. We're talking about what's almost certainly a moot point. If anything, it would be way, way better for that random breakout player to be Jones or Roby where the Spurs could offer an extension to add option value. KBD would be among the worst players on the team for that to happen to. We aren't arguing over a real point, and most of us agree with the assumptions that the Spurs are a team with very little realized talent compared to the rest of the league and that they will lose a lot of games this year. Very few disagreements that I've seen on this board are about that. Rather, the disagreements are over whether that's just a fact that we have to live with in hopes of being rewarded later or if it's a virtue that has to be protected at all costs. I'm firmly in the first camp. I hope that if the Spurs lose, they win the lotto or otherwise get the guy they want. But I want the Spurs to win, this year, not next year or in 10 years. I watch sports to be entertained, and watching a losing team isn't entertaining to me. I don't have a trophy case in my house for all the championships my teams have won. There are certainly folks in the second camp, and there are many that waffle in between depending on the conversation.

So yeah, I don't think anything will spot Sochan from getting minutes. I don't think KBD will be good enough to block him. But if he is, then he should play. Play the best guys and see what you have in terms of trade assets and future pieces. Don't worry about winning games, but also don't worry if the guys whom you're trying to trade are soaking up touches and increasing their value. Rebuilding is a long process, and it involves more than giving unlimited run to your highest picks.

[cd98]

No question the Spurs are unwatchable. It will improve a little when Johnson comes back. But the Spurs may not win 4 games from what I can see. And we are better off losing and losing often. We bottomed out on moneyball because you can only get away with that when you have Tim Duncan on your team.

[TD 21]

The team being bad is an assumption. I think it's a good assumption, but that's not one that was being made for most of this discussion. We're not talking about the likely real scenario where the Spurs suck, KBD isn't good and there's nothing standing in the way of Sochan getting minutes. We're talking about the unlikely scenario where the Spurs don't suck that badly in large part because folks like KBD break out. In those scenarios, you don't tear your hair out because you're not losing enough games, hit the panic button and bench KBD to give Sochan minutes he may or may not be able to handle. You feature KBD and then either trade him or keep him.

Again, this is not a likely scenario. We're talking about what's almost certainly a moot point. If anything, it would be way, way better for that random breakout player to be Jones or Roby where the Spurs could offer an extension to add option value. KBD would be among the worst players on the team for that to happen to. We aren't arguing over a real point, and most of us agree with the assumptions that the Spurs are a team with very little realized talent compared to the rest of the league and that they will lose a lot of games this year. Very few disagreements that I've seen on this board are about that. Rather, the disagreements are over whether that's just a fact that we have to live with in hopes of being rewarded later or if it's a virtue that has to be protected at all costs. I'm firmly in the first camp. I hope that if the Spurs lose, they win the lotto or otherwise get the guy they want. But I want the Spurs to win, this year, not next year or in 10 years. I watch sports to be entertained, and watching a losing team isn't entertaining to me. I don't have a trophy case in my house for all the championships my teams have won. There are certainly folks in the second camp, and there are many that waffle in between depending on the conversation.

So yeah, I don't think anything will spot Sochan from getting minutes. I don't think KBD will be good enough to block him. But if he is, then he should play. Play the best guys and see what you have in terms of trade assets and future pieces. Don't worry about winning games, but also don't worry if the guys whom you're trying to trade are soaking up touches and increasing their value. Rebuilding is a long process, and it involves more than giving unlimited run to your highest picks.

Please. You're suggesting whatever minor value Bates-Diop might have (dependent on his 3-point %/volume) should not only supersede on court NBA development for the highest pick in a quarter century, but also potentially risk hurting the odds of landing an all-time prospect, an elite one and securing as high a floor as possible. Wow.

We get it: you're fine with mediocrity. Some of us have higher aspirations. Forgive us.

That's an assumption and while the latter is true, you generally have to nail the majority of the should be likely stuff, such as getting quality players out of high picks.

[Ice009]

3) That last quote isn't even a sentence. Yes, I argue that we should want the best players on the team to play and play well rather than worrying about giving the young guys the bulk of the minutes. This is me who's arguing that -- the guy who was extremely skeptical of the d-league last year. It's one thing when you have a blue-chip on a superstar track. It's another thing when it's just the guys who happen to be the youngest players on the team. The Hinkie Sixers pissed away how many high picks on guys who sat behind or were traded away to make room for second-rounders or UDFAs? I want to be clear that I hated that team for that era. I'm glad Hinkie's out of the league. But so many fans on this board want the Spurs to adopt his philosophy, but they want to discard that Hinkie was never married to any of his picks (ever -- look at MCW -- but especially) before they earned it. He would certainly be looking to trade away the vets, but he would also not look at any of the rookies and bypass showcasing vets to give them playing time. It's bad asset-management on top of being bad roster-management. I hope that all of the Spurs' prospects pan out and end up being the foundation to the team's next contending era. But it's not a certainly that ANY of these guys will be around for that pivot, and there's no reason to assume that if someone is, it'll be one of the rookies. That's just fetishism.


I didn't follow the 76ers much during that Sam Hinkie era. I just remember they were dreadful. What was his strategy? Just trade away all the vets of value and play the young guys? Was his primary goal to get higher draft position each year, or was he trying to develop the youth?

[Chinook]

Please. You're suggesting whatever minor value Bates-Diop might have (dependent on his 3-point %/volume) should not only supersede on court NBA development for the highest pick in a quarter century, but also potentially risk hurting the odds of landing an all-time prospect, an elite one and securing as high a floor as possible. Wow.

If KBD were to play well enough to pull the Spurs from the worst team to out of the top four, then we aren't talking about minor value. And because I keep having to say it: Real-life KBD, even with better shooting: speed bump for Sochan. Alternate-world scenario KBD who's all of the sudden a top-three role-player in the NBA, worth not giving a huge role to Sochan. I've said that a half-dozen times, and folks still cartwheel in here saying that I want to banish Sochan forever for someone who's a best a meh rotation player.


We get it: you're fine with mediocrity. Some of us have higher aspirations. Forgive us.

Lame. Some of us don't actually attach any of our self-worth to our sports teams. I have aspirations about things that actually matter. I watch basketball for the endorphin hits. Giving up years of those hits for the possibility (not guarantee) that it will lead to slightly more endorphin hits eventually is a trade-off I don't find appealing. That doesn't mean I don't understand the Spurs potentially wanting to do it. It just means it's not something I care for.


That's an assumption and while the latter is true, you generally have to nail the majority of the should be likely stuff, such as getting quality players out of high picks.

Nailing picks and forcing the picks into immediate big-minute roles are different things. The Spurs can nail the Sochan pick despite not seeing him earn a huge role right away. It's possible that Wemby is the perfect center to play with him, and it wouldn't be until he has such a center than things click for him. Or he might need to develop more moves to unlock his offense, and that may not be apparent right now. Or, the Spurs could end up getting a meh return out of their pick with him while nailing the Barlow signing or Roby claiming. Who cares? Time will tell.

[Chinook]

I didn't follow the 76ers much during that Sam Hinkie era. I just remember they were dreadful. What was his strategy? Just trade away all the vets of value and play the young guys? Was his primary goal to get higher draft position each year, or was he trying to develop the youth?

Hinkie believed the draft was a crap-shoot and that getting more picks was important. He also liked to try to collect unprotected picks/swaps, but even second-rounders he went for. Hinkie did develop youth, though he also played (or let Brown play) the best guys without care of their draft stock. That doesn't mean that the rookies didn't play, but it did mean that some old or low-ceiling guys like Mbah a Moute, Ish Smith or Richardson played big roles. Even as time went on and they have more picks, they still played guys like Ilyasova and Henderson. They never got away from playing vets, and they let guys like Jerami Grant ad Robert Covington play if they earned it.

[K...]

Why do people think players are like pokemon and you have play them in lead roles or they won't develop?. This is maybe true of Pg but the idea that Sochan won't develop if we dont make him starter is assinine. Both sochan and kbd will get chances this year.

[slick'81]

Wtf did diop become the key to anything the spurs are doing?

[TD 21]

Lame. Some of us don't actually attach any of our self-worth to our sports teams. I have aspirations about things that actually matter. I watch basketball for the endorphin hits. Giving up years of those hits for the possibility (not guarantee) that it will lead to slightly more endorphin hits eventually is a trade-off I don't find appealing. That doesn't mean I don't understand the Spurs potentially wanting to do it. It just means it's not something I care for.



Nailing picks and forcing the picks into immediate big-minute roles are different things. The Spurs can nail the Sochan pick despite not seeing him earn a huge role right away. It's possible that Wemby is the perfect center to play with him, and it wouldn't be until he has such a center than things click for him. Or he might need to develop more moves to unlock his offense, and that may not be apparent right now. Or, the Spurs could end up getting a meh return out of their pick with him while nailing the Barlow signing or Roby claiming. Who cares? Time will tell.

Oh, so because I want to watch more than mediocrity that means I attach some of my self-worth to it. Lame.

We're not talking slightly more, we're talking hopefully significantly more.

Sure, but there's no excuse to not explore it.

Again, you've got to prioritize the big things and right now he qualifies as that. You're trying to reverse engineer things.

[daslicer]

I didn't follow the 76ers much during that Sam Hinkie era. I just remember they were dreadful. What was his strategy? Just trade away all the vets of value and play the young guys? Was his primary goal to get higher draft position each year, or was he trying to develop the youth?

They had the worst roster and would get rid of anybody young or old who could win them some games to ensure they would have the worst record.

[Chinook]

Oh, so because I want to watch more than mediocrity that means I attach some of my self-worth to it. Lame.

What you want to do is your business. But expecting "Well I don't accept mediocrity in my entertainment, unlike you" to be a rebuttal is why I feel you assigned a status to it.


We're not talking slightly more, we're talking hopefully significantly more.

Nah, the endorphins I get from watching a decent team with good storylines isn't much different than what I get from watching a contender. I'm not saying that for the Spurs' FO or from a ticket-sales perspective it might not be a huge difference. But to me, no. It's not a trade-off that's worth it. This is also accepting the idea that tanking is a clearer path to contention than not tanking. I don't agree with that, but we've had that discussion before and can again in a thread more appropriate for it.


Sure, but there's no excuse to not explore it.

Of course there is. They can see if they can get more immediate returns from guys for whom they have fewer years of control for trades or to re-sign. Unless you can demonstrate that playing the big role now is more likely to improve his developmental plan than not doing that, it's not evidence. It's just your opinion. It's a fine opinion, and I don't think it's irrational. I just don't think it really moves the argument one way or the other. If there are hypothetical benefits to not giving Sochan big minutes immediately, then we need a more concrete view of the drawbacks to know if it's the right move.


Again, you've got to prioritize the big things and right now he qualifies as that. You're trying to reverse engineer things.

As far as I understand, your principle stance is that the Spurs can't make any real movement toward contending until they draft a centerpiece. By that logic, the "big thing" to prioritize is creating value to trade to increase your chances of drafting that player. So the short-term people whose value will walk out the door in a year or two should be the priority for minutes so they can be traded rather than worrying about a guy who you have for four years. If the goal is to build a strong supporting cast for that centerpiece, then it makes sense to play the people who are playing well and not worry so much about creating a hierarchy that's not based on performance. That's how you get a bad locker-room and lack of flow. Under neither paradigm is force-feeding Sochan minutes and ignoring a guy who plays well the answer. Hinkie wouldn't do it. Kerr wouldn't do it. If you think Sochan is ready for the next step but he's being blocked by KBD or Roby playing well, then you trade that player and promote Sochan. It's just an elegant solution.

That's not the same thing as starting Bonner or Beli over them. We'd agree if we were talking about a vet getting the minutes because of hierarchy without them earning it with their play.

[TD 21]

What you want to do is your business. But expecting "Well I don't accept mediocrity in my entertainment, unlike you" to be a rebuttal is why I feel you assigned a status to it.



Nah, the endorphins I get from watching a decent team with good storylines isn't much different than what I get from watching a contender. I'm not saying that for the Spurs' FO or from a ticket-sales perspective it might not be a huge difference. But to me, no. It's not a trade-off that's worth it. This is also accepting the idea that tanking is a clearer path to contention than not tanking. I don't agree with that, but we've had that discussion before and can again in a thread more appropriate for it.



Of course there is. They can see if they can get more immediate returns from guys for whom they have fewer years of control for trades or to re-sign. Unless you can demonstrate that playing the big role now is more likely to improve his developmental plan than not doing that, it's not evidence. It's just your opinion. It's a fine opinion, and I don't think it's irrational. I just don't think it really moves the argument one way or the other. If there are hypothetical benefits to not giving Sochan big minutes immediately, then we need a more concrete view of the drawbacks to know if it's the right move.



As far as I understand, your principle stance is that the Spurs can't make any real movement toward contending until they draft a centerpiece. By that logic, the "big thing" to prioritize is creating value to trade to increase your chances of drafting that player. So the short-term people whose value will walk out the door in a year or two should be the priority for minutes so they can be traded rather than worrying about a guy who you have for four years. If the goal is to build a strong supporting cast for that centerpiece, then it makes sense to play the people who are playing well and not worry so much about creating a hierarchy that's not based on performance. That's how you get a bad locker-room and lack of flow. Under neither paradigm is force-feeding Sochan minutes and ignoring a guy who plays well the answer. Hinkie wouldn't do it. Kerr wouldn't do it. If you think Sochan is ready for the next step but he's being blocked by KBD or Roby playing well, then you trade that player and promote Sochan. It's just an elegant solution.

That's not the same thing as starting Bonner or Beli over them. We'd agree if we were talking about a vet getting the minutes because of hierarchy without them earning it with their play.

If that's supposed to be you quoting me, you might want it to actually be accurate instead of your interpretation of it.

Where the Spurs were, it definitely is and they finally were able to face it which is primarily why they traded Murray.

Roby and Bates-Diop aren't fetching much, if anything on their own even with a good %/volume season from 3.

I'm not concerned with that though. That's not overly difficult once you get the centerpiece(s).

That's just it, again Sochan being in the position he's in isn't performance based, it was clearly predetermined based on archaic think. That's my biggest gripe is that even in this state, it doesn't appear things are changing around here.

[objective]

Not exactly following the discussion about Sochan and KBD and Roby. Don't particularly understand what the dispute is. Maybe Pop is screwing it up, no surprise. Or maybe Sochan was overdrafted?

Hinkie's problem was he didn't have an eye for talent. He knew how to play odds and do simulations like a video game but didn't have the human touch to work the traditional media, give his coaches useful vets to at least be competitive for a half and didn't understand roster construction. Numbers yes people no.

The only young players under Hinkie who didn't while healthy play significant minutes even as rookies were second rounders and free agents, some of whom would take years and multiple teams to develop. Everyone played good minutes from the first round if they weren't injured.

Hinkie would still be there today if he had signed Mills in 2014 to give Brown someone to be his locker room leader and be the leader to the media. They would have been just as bad but at least more entertaining and brown would have had an advocate in a locker room where he didn't have one. They would have been less embarrassing and the NBA would have never stepped in. Even Mills missing the first half of the year with shoulder surgery would have been an excuse to their benefit. But Hinkie was too arrogant.

If Sochan isn't good enough to get minutes ahead of kbd and Roby this season by the break then he's probably safe to rename to SoBust. These are trash, fringe players. KBD is lucky Luka had personality flaws or he would have been cut last year. OKC put Roby on waivers.

This isn't like Parker having to wait 4 games behind Daniels, Antonio was coming off a western conference finals where he scored 19 points a game.

And as frustrated as I am with Branham getting the Pop treatment, at least I can understand it. McDermott, Richardson, Vassell, and soon enough Keldon at the sf means there are real NBA players ahead of him, not 13th men like kbd and Roby.

If Primo and Sochan don't turn into real NBA players real soon then Wright will find himself watching from home like Hinkie once Pop and RC aren't around to protect him. Vassell at least looks like a solid rotation wing, but there's players who went behind him that would definitely go before him now.

When the draft is the only way left to improve your small market team you better nail the draft.

[Chinook]

If that's supposed to be you quoting me, you might want it to actually be accurate instead of your interpretation of it.

If I wanted to quote you directly, I would have. But I did capture the point of what you said. If I had cleaved more strongly to your words, it would've only come across as a stronger indicator that you though you were making a legit value judgment. It's pretty clear that you consider me being willing to "accept mediocrity" was itself an argument in and of itself. As if striving for excellence ... in our entertainment ... was a self-evident virtue.


Where the Spurs were, it definitely is and they finally were able to face it which is primarily why they traded Murray.

Again, your opinion. The Spurs do seem to share that opinion. I agree there. But I also know you don't think the Spurs having an opinion is lockdown evidence that it's the right thing to do.


Roby and Bates-Diop aren't fetching much, if anything on their own even with a good %/volume season from 3.

:rolleyes We're not again going over the KBD thing again. If Roby is randomly one of the best three-and-D players in the league, the Spurs should absolutely extend him and not give a shit about Sochan, especially this year. Again (again) Roby isn't likely at all to be that guy. But if he were, that's near Sochan's eventual ceiling anyway. Trying to toss that away to give the priority to Sochan would be a "boat versus mystery box" scenario.


I'm not concerned with that though. That's not overly difficult once you get the centerpiece(s).

Yes, it is, because those guys are already gone. You don't get a centerpiece and then try to start figuring out a roster from scratch. That's how you end up with that piece walking before you do anything. You either continue to build assets or you continue to try to build a strong supporting cast. You don't piss away both of those options just because you want to prove you were smart to draft a certain guy high as soon as possible.


That's just it, again Sochan being in the position he's in isn't performance based, it was clearly predetermined based on archaic think. That's my biggest gripe is that even in this state, it doesn't appear things are changing around here.

Nah. You may like that in a vacuum, but you've said multiple times in this discussion that Sochan should be getting the minutes regardless of his performance. That's predetermined, and despite whatever angle you're trying to push, playing rookies trying as a way to justifying an investment isn't new-fangled. It's an old idea that itself needed innovation. Sochan started last game, so it's not even clear what role he's in right now, let alone if he's earning a higher one or not. We've yet to see the team at full strength and have no idea who fits where and how much anyone should play. I do feel like even if development is the goal, the Spurs have to try to make a system where guys can get developmental touches.

I doubt the team is so superficial as to care more about Sochan because he had fewer players picked above him than Primo, Vassell, Johnson or even Wesley and Branham. I imagine instead they have certain goals they want to see each guy reach and a place in their developmental pipeline they want the guys to be at. If we are handicapping it, Primo is supposedly the blue-chipper. Johnson is the face of the team. Poeltl is their best player. Vassell was the top option with Johnson out. It's very possible that the Spurs' goal this year is to see if any of those three perimeter guys is a true long-term keeper, and it might serve them to not have a developmental PF who can't score and who could use time learning how to get his shot off in the NBA taking up touches. Maybe having some role-players who can do their job while not demanding game-plan attention might work with that. Maybe once Sochan gets his shot right, he'll be a great fit with them. Maybe that's what next year will bring while this year, they let KBD or Roby do that job. It feels like the Spurs could have a good plan in place with solid priorities while not considering kowtowing to fan curiosity about their picks being chief among them.

[Chinook]

Not exactly following the discussion about Sochan and KBD and Roby. Don't particularly understand what the dispute is. Maybe Pop is screwing it up, no surprise.

TL;DR: We're fanficking a scenario where KBD or Roby gets bitten by a radioactive basketball and becomes an elite role-player ala Danny Green or Robert Covington and if in that situation the Spurs should play them or bench them to develop guys with a perceived higher ceiling. In real life, Sochan started despite KBD and Roby both being active last game. They aren't keeping him from playing. There's no reason to panic. We're just talking about fan theories.

I don't disagree with the Hinkie evaluation except I think he allowed Brown to play whomever he wanted, though he might've pushed for Brown to play two-center combos to justify the three fives he picked in the lotto in consecutive years. The Sixers were rewarded not only by finding a couple of All-Stars with their top picks but also unearthing some solid role-players after the first round. The Spurs could have the same tiered success while avoiding the worst of Hinkie's pitfalls

[objective]

TL;DR: We're fanficking a scenario where KBD or Roby gets bitten by a radioactive basketball and becomes an elite role-player ala Danny Green or Robert Covington and if in that situation the Spurs should play them or bench them to develop guys with a perceived higher ceiling. In real life, Sochan started despite KBD and Roby both being active last game. They aren't keeping him from playing. There's no reason to panic. We're just talking about fan theories.

I don't disagree with the Hinkie evaluation except I think he allowed Brown to play whomever he wanted, though he might've pushed for Brown to play two-center combos to justify the three fives he picked in the lotto in consecutive years. The Sixers were rewarded not only by finding a couple of All-Stars with their top picks but also unearthing some solid role-players after the first round. The Spurs could have the same tiered success while avoiding the worst of Hinkie's pitfalls

Ehhh, I think kbd or Roby would have popped by now if they were on their way to be Green or Covington. I think both of those guys had signed long term deals worth north of $10 million after year 4 for Covington and year 3 for Green. The only reason Covington didn't get a good deal before that was being locked into the 4 year Hinkie special. He probably would have had decent deal as soon as after year 2. And of course Covington was with 1 team, Green with 2. This is team 3 for both the other guys.

And I realize that is being strict. Sure, they could become useful players, like a Richaun Holmes or Jerami Grant or Christian Wood. I guess in some cases I feel those guys pop early anyway (Grant basically never planning less than 20 minutes a game) or were superior athletes who could grow into their games or relative maturity.

I just think kbd is too stiff and Roby not big enough for those guys to fit that category. Maybe Roby can be a poor man's Dwight Powell, but even Powell won't be playing much this year supposedly.

Back to Hinkie, he even gets too much credit for the under the radar guys. He only had Covington because if I remember right the Rockets cut him, and I suspect Morey had to tell Hinkie to sign him. Hinkie didn't find him on his own.

And I didn't think at the time that Hinkie did enough 'gold panning' if I could borrow a phrase. Yes, he would sign some guys to the Hinkie special, but that team was such trash that he should have turned over every rock in the gleague and cycled through everyone. There's no way Simmons should have been free for the Spurs to get as one example.

Now I'm bracing myself for disappointment with the Spurs not churning through 2 ways and eventually 10 days and spots 13 14 15 to pan for whatever talent they can squeeze out of the gleague and Europe. They should spend this year sifting through the ashes to find anything for the future.

[rankingtear]

Sochan is getting more minutes than Roby , KBD might start though. Pairing Sochan with the bench group with more spacing has its benefits. The ability to control his matchups would give him more confidence his rookie year.

[Chinook]

Ehhh, I think kbd or Roby would have popped by now if they were on their way to be Green or Covington. I think both of those guys had signed long term deals worth north of $10 million after year 4 for Covington and year 3 for Green. The only reason Covington didn't get a good deal before that was being locked into the 4 year Hinkie special. He probably would have had decent deal as soon as after year 2. And of course Covington was with 1 team, Green with 2. This is team 3 for both the other guys.

And I realize that is being strict. Sure, they could become useful players, like a Richaun Holmes or Jerami Grant or Christian Wood. I guess in some cases I feel those guys pop early anyway (Grant basically never planning less than 20 minutes a game) or were superior athletes who could grow into their games or relative maturity.

I just think kbd is too stiff and Roby not big enough for those guys to fit that category. Maybe Roby can be a poor man's Dwight Powell, but even Powell won't be playing much this year supposedly.

Back to Hinkie, he even gets too much credit for the under the radar guys. He only had Covington because if I remember right the Rockets cut him, and I suspect Morey had to tell Hinkie to sign him. Hinkie didn't find him on his own.

And I didn't think at the time that Hinkie did enough 'gold panning' if I could borrow a phrase. Yes, he would sign some guys to the Hinkie special, but that team was such trash that he should have turned over every rock in the gleague and cycled through everyone. There's no way Simmons should have been free for the Spurs to get as one example.

Now I'm bracing myself for disappointment with the Spurs not churning through 2 ways and eventually 10 days and spots 13 14 15 to pan for whatever talent they can squeeze out of the gleague and Europe. They should spend this year sifting through the ashes to find anything for the future.

Yeah, as I said, it's not likely at all for those guys (especially KBD) to break out. Green didn't get eight figure until after year six, through. He had one year with CLE, a partial year with SA, a full (but truncated) season with SA, then a three-year deal for less than the MLE from the Spurs. We're talking about a time when the MLE was $5 Million. Very few players were making eight figures.

I don't like Hinkie and am glad he's gone. I agree with your take on his philosophy. I'm just saying that even the most extreme tanking team is fine with playing guys who earn it. A lot of fans are impatient and want young guys to be better than they are. I get the desire to see them, and sometimes the Spurs are overly cautious like not starting Leonard right away. But they aren't nearly as rigid as some are making them out to be. Green, Mills, Neal, Baynes and even Forbes are examples of that.

[objective]

Yeah, as I said, it's not likely at all for those guys (especially KBD) to break out. Green didn't get eight figure until after year six, through. He had one year with CLE, a partial year with SA, a full (but truncated) season with SA, then a three-year deal for less than the MLE from the Spurs. We're talking about a time when the MLE was $5 Million. Very few players were making eight figures.

I don't like Hinkie and am glad he's gone. I agree with your take on his philosophy. I'm just saying that even the most extreme tanking team is fine with playing guys who earn it. A lot of fans are impatient and want young guys to be better than they are. I get the desire to see them, and sometimes the Spurs are overly cautious like not starting Leonard right away. But they aren't nearly as rigid as some are making them out to be. Green, Mills, Neal, Baynes and even Forbes are examples of that.

Right, but my point on the Green contract which totaled more than $10 over 3 years was that he had 'arrived', enough to get a 'real' multi year deal rather than one of those fake multi-year minimum deals that isn't guaranteed. I was comparing that to KBD for instance, who might be on a multi-year deal but it's a minimum that according to sportrac doesn't even guarantee until opening night. KBD I'm sure would be thrilled to get a 60% MLE deal instead.

[TD 21]

If I wanted to quote you directly, I would have. But I did capture the point of what you said. If I had cleaved more strongly to your words, it would've only come across as a stronger indicator that you though you were making a legit value judgment. It's pretty clear that you consider me being willing to "accept mediocrity" was itself an argument in and of itself. As if striving for excellence ... in our entertainment ... was a self-evident virtue.

Yes, it is, because those guys are already gone. You don't get a centerpiece and then try to start figuring out a roster from scratch.

Nah. You may like that in a vacuum, but you've said multiple times in this discussion that Sochan should be getting the minutes regardless of his performance. That's predetermined, and despite whatever angle you're trying to push, playing rookies trying as a way to justifying an investment isn't new-fangled.

It feels like the Spurs could have a good plan in place with solid priorities while not considering kowtowing to fan curiosity about their picks being chief among them.

:lmao What the hell are you even talking about? You're like the Irving of SpursTalk: I understand all the words, but the way you structure them is so convoluted it's unclear what you're saying half the time.

No, it isn't. I'm not talking at a championship contender level, nor did I say you start after the fact. The way they've delayed the inevitable here, there's already pieces in place that can fit around any centerpiece (Johnson and Vassell) and four others who have legit shots at it (Primo, Sochan, Branham, Wesley).

I said to start. Predetermined is fine in that case, it's not fine when it's hanging onto some archaic nonsense.

Despite your constant defense of them, the Spurs have lost all benefit of the doubt by prioritizing Pop and their precious "culture"/"program" above all else.