Jeremy Sochan: Future Elite Role Player or Future Star?

[Dejounte]

I’d argue that he’s one step away from being an elite role player right now. Once he starts hitting 3’s consistently, he’s there.

But with the emergence of him being a point forward because he’s been thrusted into that role, does that change anyone’s perception of him? I think it was always wishful thinking that he’d have that kind of responsibility in a Boris Diaw kind of way, but he’s handling the ball more than a Boris Diaw in these last two games. It seems like it’s trending more towards a true secondary playmaker instead of a third option type, handle-the-ball-when-you-have-to player.

I think this opens up his upside by a ton. A 6-8” playmaker is going to be fun to watch as a Spurs fan.

[XDT76]

If his shooting/finishing and handling can improve like DjM he will be a star.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

From a “potential” standpoint he has star written all over him. It will take (early career) Kawhi-like commitment to get there, as his game has some big holes to fill in order for him to reach ‘star’ level. But he’s got the tools to get there.

[rankingtear]

He has star equity for sure. All-NBA ceiling. Him and Devin has that.

[spursparker9]

Any player comparison? Max ceiling

[Ariel]

He's already on the path to becoming an elite role player. If he hits jumpers at a league average % or better, he's going to be a star. Not the kind that puts up earth shattering numbers, but the kind that influences the outcome of games, like Manu did.

[mo7888]

Elite role player is my expectation and I think there's a chance at becoming a future star. It will come down to his outside shooting. I'm not overly confident that he will ever solve that and that's why I didn't have him higher on my BB at the draft. He's fun to watch though and I'm really hoping he can fix his mechanics and become a plus outside shooter.

[Dejounte]

Any player comparison? Max ceiling

The real question is if there has ever been a player who reached elite role player status in their first or second year and remained that way for the rest of their career.

[Ariel]

He's not just a first year player, he's a 19 y.o first year player. He's going to grow in every aspect of the game, the question is how much can his shooting improve, because it's bad... worse than I thought. The good news is, he doesn't seem to have mental struggles a la Ben Simmons, and he's willing to put in the work, so I'm optimistic he'll get it done (to a degree).

[Atl Spur]

This boy has even more skills than we are currently witnessing; shoot for the star designation! I like his mental makeup.

[rankingtear]

Any player comparison? Max ceiling

Pop is playing him like his Ben Simmons right now. Transition PG, POA defender.

[Ariel]

Pop is playing him like his Ben Simmons right now. Transition PG, POA defender.
He's not explosive like Ben Simmons is, he doesn't have that first step, and coupled with his poor outside shooting, that's what limits his PG duties to specific moments or in transition. I like the Draymond Green comparison better, but more agile and with better offense.

[The Truth #6]

That’s a good starting point, can he be better than Draymond Green? Seems like yes, but feels early to say that.

[ginobilized]

He really reminds me of a Rookie Rodman. His footwork, pest-like qualities, great positioning as a rebounder, even his frame.
15 games into the season and how many times has he beaten everybody downcourt? Elite role player will come with some seasoning. Future star is up to him.
If he has the off-season fire to go for it, look out.

[Seventyniner]

He really reminds me of a Rookie Rodman. His footwork, pest-like qualities, great positioning as a rebounder, even his frame.
15 games into the season and how many times has he beaten everybody downcourt? Elite role player will come with some seasoning. Future star is up to him.
If he has the off-season fire to go for it, look out.

One nice thing about this soft tanking/lineup experimentation is that the Spurs get 82 full games of player development at full speed against the best talent in the world. I expect the current young players to improve even more quickly than those in the past.

[offset formation]

Just so it's crystal clear, I've been touting his ability to be what everyone thinks or at least thought Ben Simmons could be for a year now. Watching his tape at Baylor pointed that out.

The shocking thing is from Pop, and it's incredibly surprising. The same pop that barely played rookies is now not only playing, but starting Sochan. Furthermore, not even 15 games into the season, he's experimenting with letting a 4 run the point. Why? Partly because our shortage there mandated someone else giving it a go, but also because the kid must be really showing this staff he has the ability to do it. That is a mind-blowing transformation coming from the stick in the mud 73 year old Pop.

[offset formation]

Following up on my post above. Can you imagine if we were somehow fortunate enough to snag Wembanyama???!!??

We could have the league's first 4 & 5 points on the same team in NBA history. Would totally re-write how the game is played, especially if Sochan could develop a consistent 3 like Wembanyama already has. Sky would absolutely be the limit for this team. Gotta tank though.

You could play a big lineup defensive lineup with Poeltl guarding the 5, Wembanyama the 4, Sochan the 3, Devin the 2, and whomever at the 1. Talk about length for miles.

And because if Wembanyama and Sochans athleticism and hopeful shooting ability, you could even get away with that offensively for stretches.

[Ariel]

Question: many people here were skeptic of taking Sochan at no. 9, for many reasons: perceived lack of athleticism, poor shooting, and no. 9 being too high a pick to take a role player with supposedly limited potential. How do you feel about it now, with what we've seen? is he the best option available at no. 9? of those taken before him, how many would you take over him?
Me: he was always one of my favorite options at no. 9, and I'd still take him there. Other than Banchero and Ivey, there's no one I'd take clearly over him, with Mathurin (who was my other option then) and Sharpe (who I was very wary of and proved his upside is real) being the ones I'd also consider in a do over (but neither were available, so).

[rankingtear]

He's not explosive like Ben Simmons is, he doesn't have that first step, and coupled with his poor outside shooting, that's what limits his PG duties to specific moments or in transition. I like the Draymond Green comparison better, but more agile and with better offense.

He is not being played like Dray though. He is legit running pick and rolls as the ball handler.

[Ariel]

Following up on my post above. Can you imagine if we were somehow fortunate enough to snag Wembanyama???!!??

We could have the league's first 4 & 5 points on the same team in NBA history. Would totally re-write how the game is played, especially if Sochan could develop a consistent 3 like Wembanyama already has. Sky would absolutely be the limit for this team. Gotta tank though.

You could play a big lineup defensive lineup with Poeltl guarding the 5, Wembanyama the 4, Sochan the 3, Devin the 2, and whomever at the 1. Talk about length for miles.

And because if Wembanyama and Sochans athleticism and hopeful shooting ability, you could even get away with that offensively for stretches.
This is what I'm hoping for. We've assembled a group that can grow into a very good supporting cast for a contender, but needs a true centerpiece. Wembanyama & Henderson could be that, maybe someone else too. If we get lucky come next lottery, watch out, give this young group a couple of years and we're back were we left off.

[The Truth #6]

In the end he’s a great fit for Pop and a position of need. Good thing we avoided Jonny Davis, he hasn’t done well. I still like Tari Eason but not sure he would be as good a fit with Pop. So in the end, seems like a perfect fit.

[exstatic]

If he can legit be a 6’9” PG? Potential all the way up to Superstar.

[John B]

In Pop I trust. And when I see Pop do not hesitate to throw Sochan in there to play starting PG against the defending Champs, on top of guarding the best shooter this game has known, there must be a reason why. Sochan embraces the challenges. He doesn’t do too much, he doesn’t gamble. He just stays in front of you. That much discipline on a 19 years old says A LOT! A lot of times the best defense is to deny the entry or just be there. Too many wants to reach and get silly foul, overplay and you get burn. And that’s the problem I had with DJM. He gambles and baits his guy to get the steal, but often times he gets burn, but he gets his 2-3 steals, stats padding imo. Kawhi just stays in front of his guy, and that’s enough.

Offensively, Sochan’s shooting is still suspect. But he’s not shy to send them when open. I have no doubt he will work to get better. But putting the ball in his hands opens more opportunities for him, he can rimrun, bully a smaller defender while zooming fast slower big men. The best part is, he relishes the opportunity to get better. Again in Pop I trust. Keldon, Devin and soon Jeremy. I think there’s our big 3.

I’ve been curious why not sign another backup PG? Damn. If you don’t have one, then Sochan will be forced to be one :lol

[LeBowen]

What do you define as star? An all-star? Sure.
First or 1A/1B option on a legit contender? We'll see. Not the Spurs way, anyway.

His defense is just ridiculous for a rookie. If nothing goes wrong, he'll easily be the best defender in the league in 3 to 5 years.

I don't really watch college or bother with all the potential picks we don't get, so his playmaking really surprised me. If he's this good so early on, he can become a legit secondary ballhandler.
I don't think he'll ever run the point, but I'd like to be surprised.

Call me biased, but after watching all these kids so far, if I had to do a redraft I'd even take him as the first pick.
It's way easier to turn an elite defender into a star on offense than the other way around. Nephew and Jimmy being the best examples.
How many elite scorers developed into elite defenders later on?

[John B]

What do you define as star? An all-star? Sure.
First or 1A/1B option on a legit contender? We'll see. Not the Spurs way, anyway.

His defense is just ridiculous for a rookie. If nothing goes wrong, he'll easily be the best defender in the league in 3 to 5 years.

I don't really watch college or bother with all the potential picks we don't get, so his playmaking really surprised me. If he's this good so early on, he can become a legit secondary ballhandler.
I don't think he'll ever run the point, but I'd like to be surprised.

Call me biased, but after watching all these kids so far, if I had to do a redraft I'd even take him as the first pick.
It's way easier to turn an elite defender into a star on offense than the other way around. Nephew and Jimmy being the best examples.
How many elite scorers developed into elite defenders later on?

Kobe, MJ, Garnet to name a few

I respect your opinion, but the game of basketball is putting the ball in the hoops first. More often your best scorer beats your best defender, and it would take team defense to stop a great scorer. I’d start with a scorer first and try to make him a better defender than the other way around, just for arguments sake. :bobo

[Chomag]

This would have been the Perfect time to have Chip....damn...

[LeBowen]

Kobe, MJ, Garnet to name a few

Lmao Kobe.
He developed on both ends of the floor naturally. He didn't become a 25ppg scorer and then learned to play defense.
It took him a couple of years to become a high level starter, even.
I'm talking about lottery talent that will come in and average 20ppg+ in their rookie season while obviously being polished on offense, but have low IQ players.



I respect your opinion, but the game of basketball is putting the ball in the hoops first. More often your best scorer beats your best defender, and it would take team defense to stop a great scorer. I’d start with a scorer first and try to make him a better defender than the other way around, just for arguments sake.

Yeah, it's about putting the ball in the hoop...except that every single championship team over the past 15 or so years was led by one or two elite two-way players, with Steph being the obvious exception.
But he's an exception in everything, so you can't take him as a norm.

Everyone else's best players were also elite defenders: Giannis-Jrue, Lebron-AD, nephew-Siakam-Lowry, then back to nephew-Duncan etc.
Warriors lost to Lebron because their defense wasn't good enough and their only elite defender got himself suspended.

Everyone can become a better defender, but it's way harder and less common for bad defenders to become elite. Can't teach stuff like lateral movement, size and wingspan. Some players just can't do it.

Worst case scenario, obviously barring any injuries, Sochan becomes a parennial 1st team defense, while being a solid passer and secondary playmaker who can hit a shot here and there.
How many of those can you find in the league? While almost every single team has someone who's a great scorer or has the tools to get there.
We already have two guys who will surely develop into 25ppg scorers and Devin is also a good defender.
Ever since nephew fucked us over, we desperately needed someone who's going to prevent opposing wings from torching us game in and game out. Jeremy is that guy and will be for many years to come.

But yeah, I agree, we need a playmaker now. I like Tre, his IQ is great, but he's just too undersized and has no range. Will be a good backup for playoff teams, but nothing more.
Imo, if we acquire a potentailly all-star PG, we're more or less good to go and no more tanking is needed.

[Larry O]

Listening to opposing play-by-play announcers and commenters, they immediately notice the hair and the number 10, and immediately associate him with Rodman. So, Sochan's persona, in that regard, has that immediate impact on others, perhaps with the players included. Hearing that he has the knack of being a pest and a trash talker on the court as well. If he can improve on his 3 point shooting, as well as other aspects of his game, I can see him not becoming just only a Spurs fan favorite, but he can also garner attention around the league for his playing style and growing reputation as a "Rodman-lite" player, with potential to possibly exceed him, in other ways, minus the drama. I believe he has the potential to elevate himself to "Star Status." Today's NBA seems to like "character colorization" and drama, and Sohan seems to fit that mold.

[slick'81]

Dude has all the tools just needs pop to stick around and mold him

[daslicer]

It could take 4-5 years of hard work before he can be a star. Remember Kawhi didn't make it to his first all-star game until 2016. There will be a lot of growing pains with Sochan. I think at worst he will be an elite role player at best he can be an all-star.

[poopbox]

Will be a super utility player. I doubt he ever has the offense to be a future star. I doubt he even wants to shoot that much.

[The Truth #6]

If not shooting, then his rebounds and stocks need to improve for atypical star status, with the assumption that his scoring improves somehow, likely through backdowns and going coast to coast.

[lefty20]

Calling Peak Draymond a star was sure to result in a heavy debate no matter which forum or platform u did it on. That's Jeremy's ceiling rn, imo.

If he can add a couple of consistent ways to get buckets then we'll talk about potential Stardom. He's got a lot of work to do on that end, like a hell of a fucking lot.

So I'm voting ERP. I hope he proves me wrong.

[BackHome]

I see a little of Green and Diaw in him as far as who he will be well that is TBD - Only thing I want from him now is to continue working on his craft and I love Pop giving him PG duties that will definitely help with his growth. I just wish we had Chip but I am sure they are other very good shooting coaches out there Hell just get with who ever been working with Kelldon this past summer.

[daslicer]

I see a little of Green and Diaw in him as far as who he will be well that is TBD - Only thing I want from him now is to continue working on his craft and I love Pop giving him PG duties that will definitely help with his growth. I just wish we had Chip but I am sure they are other very good shooting coaches out there Hell just get with who ever been working with Kelldon this past summer.

Ultimately it comes down to work ethic. I remember hearing Jason Kidd in an interview talk about how he was terrible 3-point shooter at the start of his career but by the end of his career became a good shooter. He said the way he turned it around is that later on his career he decided to focus on shooting for hours before and after games and that it eventually paid off. If Sochan has the work ethic, then he will be able to fix his shooting problems.

[TD 21]

Question: many people here were skeptic of taking Sochan at no. 9, for many reasons: perceived lack of athleticism, poor shooting, and no. 9 being too high a pick to take a role player with supposedly limited potential. How do you feel about it now, with what we've seen? is he the best option available at no. 9? of those taken before him, how many would you take over him?
Me: he was always one of my favorite options at no. 9, and I'd still take him there. Other than Banchero and Ivey, there's no one I'd take clearly over him, with Mathurin (who was my other option then) and Sharpe (who I was very wary of and proved his upside is real) being the ones I'd also consider in a do over (but neither were available, so).

I feel exactly the same way. He looks like what I expected, which is underwhelming (the rebounding is pathetic and even the much-ballyhooed ball handling/passing for his position are more so par for the course than standout the way they would have been prior to this era), both relative to draft slot and team needs.

But then, I didn't particularly like any option at 9 all that much and when Branham fell to 20 and to a lesser extent Wesley at 25, I was fine with the draft.

[exstatic]

Kobe, MJ, Garnet to name a few

I respect your opinion, but the game of basketball is putting the ball in the hoops first. More often your best scorer beats your best defender, and it would take team defense to stop a great scorer. I’d start with a scorer first and try to make him a better defender than the other way around, just for arguments sake. :bobo

Most players think the way you do, which is why it’s difficult to turn a scorer into a top flight defender. Those three players you listed were all good defenders already, and just needed some polishing.

[exstatic]

It could take 4-5 years of hard work before he can be a star. Remember Kawhi didn't make it to his first all-star game until 2016. There will be a lot of growing pains with Sochan. I think at worst he will be an elite role player at best he can be an all-star.

Kawhi won the FMVP after his 3rd year. It took a while for the media to catch on, but he had already arrived.

[exstatic]

Calling Peak Draymond a star was sure to result in a heavy debate no matter which forum or platform u did it on. That's Jeremy's ceiling rn, imo.

If he can add a couple of consistent ways to get buckets then we'll talk about potential Stardom. He's got a lot of work to do on that end, like a hell of a fucking lot.

So I'm voting ERP. I hope he proves me wrong.

I think the comparisons to Draymond aren’t that great. His creativity is in the half court, and usually from the top of the circle, more like Poeltl than Sochan. If Sochan starts operating off the bounce, and running the pick and roll, his ceiling becomes much higher.

[Uriel]

He's a hybrid of Boris Diaw and Draymond Green. Of course he's going to be a star.

[wildbill2u]

Thinking about "elite defense first" guards and came up with Gary Payton and Patrick Beverley. Can anyone come up with some others? I just don't see Sochan being able to play PF over the long haul with his slight frame. Right now we can't shift him to SF because we need KJ on the floor there.

[exstatic]

Thinking about "elite defense first" guards and came up with Gary Payton and Patrick Beverley. Can anyone come up with some others? I just don't see Sochan being able to play PF over the long haul with his slight frame. Right now we can't shift him to SF because we need KJ on the floor there.

He’s a rookie, and 19
And
He’s not that fucking slight
And
It’s not 1995. He’s as big at the other PFs on the squad.

All that being said, it would be fucking amazing to have a 6’9” PG.

[exstatic]

Thinking about "elite defense first" guards and came up with Gary Payton and Patrick Beverley. Can anyone come up with some others? I just don't see Sochan being able to play PF over the long haul with his slight frame. Right now we can't shift him to SF because we need KJ on the floor there.

JKidd and MJ were both 9x all D, and MJ won a DPOY.

[ambchang]

Thinking about "elite defense first" guards and came up with Gary Payton and Patrick Beverley. Can anyone come up with some others? I just don't see Sochan being able to play PF over the long haul with his slight frame. Right now we can't shift him to SF because we need KJ on the floor there.

Walt Frazier comes to mind. Dennis Johnson. John Stockton was very underrated as a defender because he was so dirty. Rondo was good but somewhat overrated. CP3 is there somewhere just based on accolades but I always thought he was overrated on d. Maurice cheeks was pretty darn good too.

[B1gduff]

How about pascal Siakam? From what I've seen out of Sochan, he had more upside on offense than green ever did.

[timvp]

Good thread.

I saw Sochan's ceiling before the draft as him being a super elite role player or like the third best player on a championship team.

Now? I think there are more right tail and left tail outcomes. So far he's even a worse shooter than advertised so there's a chance he never learns to shoot at all (not even like a 30% three-point shooter) and basically becomes a more coordinated Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. But if this point guard stuff is for real, Sochan's ultimate, ultimate upside could be as a biggie Scottie Pippen :wow

[rankingtear]

Yeah even before the draft Vecenie the athletic draft guy stated he has different paths to all star player outcome. He is definitely a top tier development piece and perfect fit for a development team like us. That shot is not a deal breaker if he can be a primary initiator at that size. He has star equity in multiple development paths because of that deep playoff level versatility on defense.

[Mr. Body]

I feel like he'll get his shot in better shape, but it's not great at this point.

But if he's both able to facilitate, whether as primary or secondary, AND guard perimeter players without fall-off, then the potential of these big line-ups that are perhaps more perfected than we saw last night opens up. You need to find the right pieces, but it gets intriguing.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

1592963561550073857

[tbdog]

Way to early and our team is way to crap to see it come together. He isn't a great athlete, so he has more work to do to become that elite role player.

[Dejounte]

Yeah, it isn’t great athleticism at all when you’re a 6’8” player who can keep up with guards and hold your own against bigs.

[The Truth #6]

He seems like a very good athlete to me. Or are we only talking about vertical leaping? I mean, he’s finishing alley oops, blocking Gobert at the rim, moving fluidly…seems good to me.

Elite role player seems more likely.

Lots of comps thrown around, but my thought is will he be better than Scottie Barnes? A lot of similarities, generally speaking.

[John B]

For now I will reserve the Superstar category because of his limited scoring ability. But Jason Kidd was a terrible shooter as well, but was able to improve on that. And like Jason Kidd, Sochan is a high bball IQ player, able to read plays developing and reacting defensively on time. For now, I will say Bobo-type Elite role player if he continuous to work as a facilitator. Bobo was an integral part of the Beautiful Game, of which maybe none would've happened if Boris was not here. His ability to see the whole court, the extra passes, the range. It’s still a lot of work for Sochan to replicate the beloved ex-Spur, but I don’t doubt he could as he embraces challenges.

Note, people should stop the Rodman comparison. Sochan might have the same hairstyle, and could get into people's skin with his defense, but Rodman was a rebounding machine, which I don’t see Sochan is. Feisty defender he is.

[John B]

Most players think the way you do, which is why it’s difficult to turn a scorer into a top flight defender. Those three players you listed were all good defenders already, and just needed some polishing.

I love defense as much as the next guy. But if I'm going to pick a player, whether in draft or at the park, I'd pick the baller first before defense. Grizzlies made the big mistake on Thabeet. Where is he now? I understand with Sochan because he was a pick-of-need. We already had DJM (at that time), Keldon, Vassell, but missing a big defensive hole at 4, plus Sochan's other intangibles. I don't know of any team, for what we know now, who would pass on Curry for Gobert. But maybe they do that in the NFL? :lol:toast

[The Truth #6]

The challenge with the direct Bobo comp is that Bobo started as a point guard and through indulgences in fine cuisine his BMI expanded and he changed positions. Sochan will still have to learn to be a point guard, whereas Bobo learned to be a power forward.

[exstatic]

Way to early and our team is way to crap to see it come together. He isn't a great athlete, so he has more work to do to become that elite role player.

Kawhi’s max vert was 28”. You don’t have to be a great athlete to be a great player. This far into his rookie season, Kawhi looked like a slightly better version of Bowen, and he was coming off the bench.

[BatManu20]

If he ever learns to hit open 3’s, he’s gonna be a real problem.

[couchman]

The tools are there for elite role player, but his shooting and health will ultimately decide if he becomes a legit star. I like what I see so far. In the short term I’d like him to focus on grabbing boards better. He can rebuild his shot in the off-season

[Ariel]

I love defense as much as the next guy. But if I'm going to pick a player, whether in draft or at the park, I'd pick the baller first before defense. Grizzlies made the big mistake on Thabeet. Where is he now? I understand with Sochan because he was a pick-of-need. We already had DJM (at that time), Keldon, Vassell, but missing a big defensive hole at 4, plus Sochan's other intangibles. I don't know of any team, for what we know now, who would pass on Curry for Gobert. But maybe they do that in the NFL? :lol:toast
Thabeet flunked because he was bad all around. As for Sochan, we didn't pass on any offensive wizard to get him, in any case he was a pick-of-need over other not better picks-of-not-need. Good enough for me.

[itzsoweezee]

Way too early to tell. People comparing him to Draymond are out of their minds. Dray can legitimately guard positions 1-5 at an elite level. Sochan is a pretty good perimeter defender, but needs a lot of work in all other aspects of defense.

On offense, he’s still pretty bad. But, he’sa 19 year old rookie, so that’s to be expected. Hopefully he turns out to be really good.

[BackHome]

One thing from watching our last draft picks growth is big jump from rookie to there third year ie; Keldon, Vassell. So far he is playing pretty good if he follows the above players growth he definitely has the possibility of being special. One thing that stood out with all three picks is that they all 3 have a high work ethic and genuine Love for the Game.

[John B]

Thabeet flunked because he was bad all around. As for Sochan, we didn't pass on any offensive wizard to get him, in any case he was a pick-of-need over other not better picks-of-not-need. Good enough for me.

I totally get Sochan’s pick. That was a reply on a reply from “will pick 1st overall…It’s way easier to turn an elite defender into a star on offense than the other way around.” I said I’d pick a baller for overall pick especially if there’s a player who has more complete game. Kawhi was not expected to develop a ridiculous offensive game. You just don’t make that big gamble on a #1 overall pick, that’s all.

[BackHome]

Yeah can’t even hate last draft easily a “A” we finally got a true PF that has definite upside will see if he lives up to his potential but very happy with pick

[John B]

Yeah can’t even hate last draft easily a “A” we finally got a true PF that has definite upside will see if he lives up to his potential but very happy with pick

Bruh PF/PG :bobo

[jjspur]

He is already a decent role player for the team, and only after like 15 games. Give him time. I see he improving even more as the season extends into next year. Props to the front office for drafting him.
Surely he'll be at least 2nd team all rookie team if not first team. Who know how good he'll be after a year of experience.

[tbdog]

Kawhi’s max vert was 28”. You don’t have to be a great athlete to be a great player. This far into his rookie season, Kawhi looked like a slightly better version of Bowen, and he was coming off the bench.

Leonard first games he had a dependable jumper. He also played a key role for a title contending team. He was a plus rebounder for his position from the get go. Sochan is such a different player. He reminds me of a stronger and faster Kyle Anderson.

[NickiRasgo]

Elite Role Player. He won't be a star and he could even the next "Triple Single" (but great advanced stats) guy but he'll be good complimentary player in a contending team (hopefully it'll be the Spurs).

[Mr. Body]

Jeremy and Jakob developing some good PnR action. Once Sochan gets better hitting mismatches there he's going to be trouble.

[JPB]

What do you define as star? An all-star? Sure.
First or 1A/1B option on a legit contender? We'll see. Not the Spurs way, anyway.

His defense is just ridiculous for a rookie. If nothing goes wrong, he'll easily be the best defender in the league in 3 to 5 years.

I don't really watch college or bother with all the potential picks we don't get, so his playmaking really surprised me. If he's this good so early on, he can become a legit secondary ballhandler.
I don't think he'll ever run the point, but I'd like to be surprised.

Call me biased, but after watching all these kids so far, if I had to do a redraft I'd even take him as the first pick.
It's way easier to turn an elite defender into a star on offense than the other way around. Nephew and Jimmy being the best examples.
How many elite scorers developed into elite defenders later on?

Still hesitating for that poll tbh.

I don't wanna embarass myself...

[LeBowen]

Still hesitating for that poll tbh.

I don't wanna embarass myself...

Are you really this pathetic and is your life really this sad?
Especially after I pointed out actual arguments in Castle topic for like dozenth time which you refused to reply to?
Instead you ghosted from there and went on hours upon hours of searching to find a bad take of mine. All the way up to November 2022.
You're a degenerate, tbh. Like I'm legit concerned that you need a psychological diagnosis.


His defense is just ridiculous for a rookie. If nothing goes wrong, he'll easily be the best defender in the league in 3 to 5 years.

His defense was ridiculous for a rookie, but hasn't improved much since. Still great, but Pop ruined him with point guard assignments where he had no chance in most schemes.
Still has the potential to be one of the best (wing/perimeter) defenders in the league.


I don't really watch college or bother with all the potential picks we don't get, so his playmaking really surprised me. If he's this good so early on, he can become a legit secondary ballhandler.
I don't think he'll ever run the point, but I'd like to be surprised.

And he proved he can't run the point.
Playmaking stagnated, didn't improve much.


Call me biased, but after watching all these kids so far, if I had to do a redraft I'd even take him as the first pick.

That's a bad one, but Chet was redshirted and that's a weak class.
Still arguably a top5 pick from players picked in the lottery and who did well early on.


It's way easier to turn an elite defender into a star on offense than the other way around. Nephew and Jimmy being the best examples.
How many elite scorers developed into elite defenders later on?

I'll never change my take on this. Still true, name someone who was a bad perimeter defender and developed into an elite one?
Obviously doesn't mean everyone lacking offensive game will develop it.

Jeremy's entire problem is that he's more or less the same player he was as a rookie. Didn't improve anything other than his FT form.
And a lot of it is on Pop.
Sometimes with fundamentally flawed players who simply must develop certain aspects of the game, you don't let them be themselves, but you need to force them to do it.
That's why Castle's awful 3pt percentages are way better than Jeremy straight up not shooting unless he really has to.

He showed great promise from the first game, but didn't develop. Who's to blame, you decide, but he still has time.
Other than draft position prediction, my post isn't that outrageously bad.

As for ghosting me in Castle's topic after getting embarrassed over and over again by many users, you really shouldn't have done this.
If this is the road you decided to take, better be prepared for me to pull all the shit you spew in your 5000 posts when I get the time.
I actually thought you're a good poster, but you're another one from wide assortiment of degenerates who loves playing dumb when things don't go his way.
Fucking pussy, actually one of the biggest ones I've seen in my lifetime on the internet.

But since you're in for war, you picked the wrong guy to take on.

[exstatic]

LeBowen, I’ll leave you with a quote from Mark Twain.


Never Argue With Stupid People. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level And Beat You With Experience.

Don’t let him waste your time. You won’t convince him of anything. He’ll just hare off in another direction, and waste more of your time. It’s like the movie War Games, when Joshua had his realization. The best move is not to play the game.

[scott]

Everyone is allowed to be wrong (I definitely have been), but I just wish we could enjoy looking back at poorly aged takes with some humility and just enjoy them for the comedic value they provide. No one here is ever going to get paid for their basketball opinions, we're all just fans with a take. No need to take anything personally.

With that said... half the people who voted think he's a future star, which is hilarious to me. This guy needs a big season to prove he's worth of a starting role going forward or if he's destined to just be an MLE-level rotation player.

[John B]

The thing I like with Jeremy is his willingness to learn and try new things. I hopeful that something good will come out from there. Also he has that cocky attitude and will not backdown on anyone. This reminds me of Cassell. He was a rookie then and playing against Barkeley, who was playing with a sore leg. Both jumped for a 50/50 possession, and Cassell leaned on Barkeley’ going up, with Barkeley grimacing. I thought then, the kid got a lot of guts.

[Leetonidas]

:lmao the takes in this thread

[Joseph Kony]

why didnt OP include a neither option? as if these are the only two paths for Sochan :lol

[DAF86]

I guess this thread could make sense in a World where the PG experiment worked and Sochan became a triple-double threat with elite positional size ala Ben Simmons, but man it's funny to read it now. :lol

I never believed in the Sochan at PG thing, so, yeah, I never saw Jeremy with a star ceiling, tbh.

[The Truth #6]

The PG experiment set him back for sure. It was a disaster for the ages. Pop should have had a better idea if it would succeed or at least try it gradually. But I still like him and think he can do well in a role initially and then build up from there. His shooting is obviously a huge question mark that will determine part of his ceiling. But I still like him. I think he can be a fifth option on a good team. Possibly more. But time is,needed and he isn't there yet.

[Big Empty]

Ill judge after 2 more seasons, he’s barely 20/21 years old, alot of time to work on his game & mechanics. Once u’ve been in the nba 4/5 years ur pretty close to you’re peak.

[jjspur]

Good NBA players do better in the NBA than in college, somewhere around 25-50 % better. Really good NBA players even more than that, especially if they eventually become a main focus of the team. Sochan was not the focus at Baylor but merely a cog to make the team better, much like he does for the spurs. Does he play decent defense ..yes. Does he score a lot of points .. no, but he does have his moments sometimes. Does he rebound well ..yes he does. All this means is that we drafted an average player and not necessarily a star- for now. I'd give him one more season. At that point we'll know if we have an average joe or someone destined for better things. He isn't a flop by any means, but one more season should tell us in what direction he's going.

Getting drafted in the lottery doesn't mean anything other than some team liked your play more than another player. Something to think about when offering him his next contract if he makes it that far.

[scott]

Does he rebound well ..yes he does.

Does he? This is one of the areas I've actually been most disappointed in.

[tonight...you]

Are you really this pathetic and is your life really this sad?
Especially after I pointed out actual arguments in Castle topic for like dozenth time which you refused to reply to?
Instead you ghosted from there and went on hours upon hours of searching to find a bad take of mine. All the way up to November 2022.
You're a degenerate, tbh. Like I'm legit concerned that you need a psychological diagnosis.



His defense was ridiculous for a rookie, but hasn't improved much since. Still great, but Pop ruined him with point guard assignments where he had no chance in most schemes.
Still has the potential to be one of the best (wing/perimeter) defenders in the league.



And he proved he can't run the point.
Playmaking stagnated, didn't improve much.



That's a bad one, but Chet was redshirted and that's a weak class.
Still arguably a top5 pick from players picked in the lottery and who did well early on.



I'll never change my take on this. Still true, name someone who was a bad perimeter defender and developed into an elite one?
Obviously doesn't mean everyone lacking offensive game will develop it.

Jeremy's entire problem is that he's more or less the same player he was as a rookie. Didn't improve anything other than his FT form.
And a lot of it is on Pop.
Sometimes with fundamentally flawed players who simply must develop certain aspects of the game, you don't let them be themselves, but you need to force them to do it.
That's why Castle's awful 3pt percentages are way better than Jeremy straight up not shooting unless he really has to.

He showed great promise from the first game, but didn't develop. Who's to blame, you decide, but he still has time.
Other than draft position prediction, my post isn't that outrageously bad.

As for ghosting me in Castle's topic after getting embarrassed over and over again by many users, you really shouldn't have done this.
If this is the road you decided to take, better be prepared for me to pull all the shit you spew in your 5000 posts when I get the time.
I actually thought you're a good poster, but you're another one from wide assortiment of degenerates who loves playing dumb when things don't go his way.
Fucking pussy, actually one of the biggest ones I've seen in my lifetime on the internet.

But since you're in for war, you picked the wrong guy to take on.

https://j.gifs.com/KeaQ0o.gif

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJ0JZbT5Ws

[JPB]

Are you really this pathetic and is your life really this sad?
Especially after I pointed out actual arguments in Castle topic for like dozenth time which you refused to reply to?
Instead you ghosted from there and went on hours upon hours of searching to find a bad take of mine. All the way up to November 2022.
You're a degenerate, tbh. Like I'm legit concerned that you need a psychological diagnosis.



His defense was ridiculous for a rookie, but hasn't improved much since. Still great, but Pop ruined him with point guard assignments where he had no chance in most schemes.
Still has the potential to be one of the best (wing/perimeter) defenders in the league.



And he proved he can't run the point.
Playmaking stagnated, didn't improve much.



That's a bad one, but Chet was redshirted and that's a weak class.
Still arguably a top5 pick from players picked in the lottery and who did well early on.



I'll never change my take on this. Still true, name someone who was a bad perimeter defender and developed into an elite one?
Obviously doesn't mean everyone lacking offensive game will develop it.

Jeremy's entire problem is that he's more or less the same player he was as a rookie. Didn't improve anything other than his FT form.
And a lot of it is on Pop.
Sometimes with fundamentally flawed players who simply must develop certain aspects of the game, you don't let them be themselves, but you need to force them to do it.
That's why Castle's awful 3pt percentages are way better than Jeremy straight up not shooting unless he really has to.

He showed great promise from the first game, but didn't develop. Who's to blame, you decide, but he still has time.
Other than draft position prediction, my post isn't that outrageously bad.

As for ghosting me in Castle's topic after getting embarrassed over and over again by many users, you really shouldn't have done this.
If this is the road you decided to take, better be prepared for me to pull all the shit you spew in your 5000 posts when I get the time.
I actually thought you're a good poster, but you're another one from wide assortiment of degenerates who loves playing dumb when things don't go his way.
Fucking pussy, actually one of the biggest ones I've seen in my lifetime on the internet.

But since you're in for war, you picked the wrong guy to take on.

First, get you nerves and control back, man. No need to go crazy like that for basketball takes.

Then for the sake of it, you're THE one, who started to "attack", patronize and insult me (awful, "stop embarassing yourself") just because you visibly viscerally couldn't stand somebody disagreed with your opinion about Castle in a freaking BB forum where people share opinions...

So i believe it's fair I playfully exposed you a little and remind everyone we should always be wary before overracting about our picks (which is part of the argument). I honestly don't know why you got so mad and took it so furiously that someone else wants to wait and see more of him before being so defiinitve about his ceiling, then also believe his shooting will define who he is...

But one last time, I guess:

- My arguments: 2 summer leagues is not enough to judge, but he can't shoot now and developing as shoot and finding a role will be important for Castle to really have a big impact.

- Yours argument: shooting isn't the point, he shot terribly there but did great in 2 godam summer league games otherwise. Zero doubts, future star! Never mind if I super confidently said the same about Sochan 2 years ago when we drafted him! It's different this time! Stop embarassing yourself for thinking shooting will matter for him!

I'll let eveybody judge.

As I told you, I enjoyed reading you, but since it really got too freaky, passionate, and personal for my taste (seriously, relax mate. It's just BB), I'm the one who's gonna block you for a month or so, so we let it cool down a bit.

[JPB]

LeBowen, I’ll leave you with a quote from Mark Twain.



Don’t let him waste your time. You won’t convince him of anything. He’ll just hare off in another direction, and waste more of your time. It’s like the movie War Games, when Joshua had his realization. The best move is not to play the game.

I really don't like to go that way but since you entered the weirdness:

You're probalby THE poster other members make the most fun of, man, for the way you're always so arrogantly and confidently say stuff that proves wrong 99% of time, then still so confidently arrogantly say exactly the opposite, like you knew it all along, when you realize you were wrong... Like no one noticed :lol

Oh, and for that giant stick you seem to have in your ass.

You guys really need to relax and learn humility.

[LeBowen]

First, get you nerves and control back, man. No need to go crazy like that for basketball takes.


It's not about basketball, it's about you being a degenerate.
It wasn't just me, it was a few of us who kept pointing things over and over again, showing long videos from respectable analysts about Castle's upside and you kept dismissing everyone over and over and over again...only to reappear a few days later with exact same rethoric, without ever disputing any of our arguments.

Of course I'll tell you that you're embarrassing yourself when I spend time and effort on a post, only for you to ghost.
Then I stopped quoting you, just ignored like half a dozen more "time to shit on Castle with whataboutism" posts.
And you quote me again. And again you don't provide any counter-arguments.
Instead, you waste a lot of time to find a bad take of mine that's a year and a half old and then you start being patronizing.
And you go back to comparing Castle and Sochan.

If you didn't put time in that, whatever, just another annoying troll.
But since you invested time into shitting on me personally instead of disputing any of my arguments after I almost begged you to do it, you crossed the line.
I'm a very patient person nowdays, but if you cross the line, it's over.

And even in this last post, you're completely twisting not just mine, but everyone's optimistic take and strawmanning us.
Who the fuck ever wrote he's a guranteed future star?

LeBowen: Posts about Castle's upside, posts videos and stats, never says he's a guranteed star.
JPB: He's shit and a couple of SL games won't change my opinion that he's not a point guard.
LeBown: Posts some more videos, one of them like half an hour long analysis of just his passing and lead guard play.
JPB: Here's what you said about Sochan two years ago and that's my entire argument against Castle.

You got a couple more days of free reign, but I'm fully committed to wasting some hours during the weekend to find all the shit takes you posted over the years and you better be sure I'll remind you of them every single damn time you post.
Just because you're a scumbag who's using personal attacks instead of replying to arguments. Better use the embarrassment-free time you have left in here to the full extent. Once I come for you, it's over.

[poopbox]

The PG experiment set him back for sure. It was a disaster for the ages. Pop should have had a better idea if it would succeed or at least try it gradually. But I still like him and think he can do well in a role initially and then build up from there. His shooting is obviously a huge question mark that will determine part of his ceiling. But I still like him. I think he can be a fifth option on a good team. Possibly more. But time is,needed and he isn't there yet.

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

[Trueblood]

The PG experiment set him back for sure. It was a disaster for the ages. Pop should have had a better idea if it would succeed or at least try it gradually. But I still like him and think he can do well in a role initially and then build up from there. His shooting is obviously a huge question mark that will determine part of his ceiling. But I still like him. I think he can be a fifth option on a good team. Possibly more. But time is,needed and he isn't there yet.

I disagree. I don't believe the PG experiment was ever meant to be a long term solution. I'm pretty confident they knew his skill set wouldn't translate over. But I did read somewhere that his passing efficiency went up and his turnover rate went down after that time. I think overall that was the goal. To use that time to make him more effective when the ball was in his hands. Additionally it gave the team more losses which led to a better draft pick. I don't know, maybe they genuinely believed because of his size he could learn to be a pick and roll partner with Wemby, but either way it actually helped him grow as a player and got us a better pick.

[exstatic]

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh
There are top 10 picks that don’t even stay in the league. Someone recently posted that Killian Hayes signed a 1 year deal to try to make a roster, and he was #7 overall. Being a 5th option on a championship team, while not ideal, is probably the median outcome for pick #9, and not the disaster you’re painting it to be.

Going back to the 2019 draft, the first with the flattened odds, the three #9 picks before Jeremy were Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, and Davion Mitchell. None of them are still with their drafting team, and none will likely ever be the #5 on a championship team. Perhaps we need to manage our expectations better.

[The Truth #6]

A quote from a few preeminent military intellectuals of our time.

Colonel Trautman: "You've done enough damage. This mission is over."

Rambo: "They drew first blood, not me!.'

[The Truth #6]

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

A disappointment, but not necessarily a waste. If the team continues to improve and he does as well, I could totally see him being the 5th starter on a championship team. He would have to be sort of the defensive menace, glue guy.

[The Truth #6]

I disagree. I don't believe the PG experiment was ever meant to be a long term solution. I'm pretty confident they knew his skill set wouldn't translate over. But I did read somewhere that his passing efficiency went up and his turnover rate went down after that time. I think overall that was the goal. To use that time to make him more effective when the ball was in his hands. Additionally it gave the team more losses which led to a better draft pick. I don't know, maybe they genuinely believed because of his size he could learn to be a pick and roll partner with Wemby, but either way it actually helped him grow as a player and got us a better pick.

I think it is widely considered a failure for his time playing point guard. I didn't suggest or mean to suggest that I thought it was going to be permanent either. I suppose to respond to your point about Jeremy learning new skills, I agree that would be a good goal, but they went too fast. I think that's a reasonable way to look at it.

[BacktoBasics]

A top 10 pick being a 5th option on a good team is a pretty big waste of a top 10 pick tbh

There are other things in basketball than offensive option.

[BacktoBasics]

A disappointment, but not necessarily a waste. If the team continues to improve and he does as well, I could totally see him being the 5th starter on a championship team. He would have to be sort of the defensive menace, glue guy.

With this upcoming season we’ll see a more complete roster with less experimentation. I think that’ll free up Sochan to be what he’s supposed to be.

This will be a good season to make decisions on his future here.

[Kevin]

There are top 10 picks that don’t even stay in the league. Someone recently posted that Killian Hayes signed a 1 year deal to try to make a roster, and he was #7 overall. Being a 5th option on a championship team, while not ideal, is probably the median outcome for pick #9, and not the disaster you’re painting it to be.

Going back to the 2019 draft, the first with the flattened odds, the three #9 picks before Jeremy were Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, and Davion Mitchell. None of them are still with their drafting team, and none will likely ever be the #5 on a championship team. Perhaps we need to manage our expectations better.

This is why draft picks are overrated in general outside the top 5. Gotta cash them for a proven player.

[exstatic]

This is why draft picks are overrated in general outside the top 5. Gotta cash them for a proven player.

Aaron Gordon wound up being a 4/5 option on a champion team, and he was drafted #4 overall. According to your logic, we should just trade a 4 overall, and cash out.

Draft picks are the only chance we have to get stars, the kind of players who are never on the market for any kind of picks because they are forcing their way to a specific team. I like Markannen,but we shouldn’t throw any ATL picks into the pot.

[jjspur]

He's the 2nd best rebounder on the team and improved a little bit from his first year. Does he warrant another year, of course he does, a huge or max contract - of course not. Hopefully he improves even more this year and then he and the spurs can talk about money. Some players do real well their 3rd and 4th years and get handsomely rewarded, some do average and still get rewarded a bit, while others still look lost, don't do crap and then get kicked to the curb or the G-League. Its up to him which path he wants to take.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Aaron Gordon wound up being a 4/5 option on a champion team, and he was drafted #4 overall. According to your logic, we should just trade a 4 overall, and cash out.

Draft picks are the only chance we have to get stars, the kind of players who are never on the market for any kind of picks because they are forcing their way to a specific team. I like Markannen,but we shouldn’t throw any ATL picks into the pot.

You got it!

[poopbox]

There are other things in basketball than offensive option.

You are right. Jeremy is pretty bad at those things as well.

[poopbox]

I disagree. I don't believe the PG experiment was ever meant to be a long term solution. I'm pretty confident they knew his skill set wouldn't translate over. But I did read somewhere that his passing efficiency went up and his turnover rate went down after that time. I think overall that was the goal. To use that time to make him more effective when the ball was in his hands. Additionally it gave the team more losses which led to a better draft pick. I don't know, maybe they genuinely believed because of his size he could learn to be a pick and roll partner with Wemby, but either way it actually helped him grow as a player and got us a better pick.

The question I would have is...why would anybody care about Sochan passing efficiency and turnover rate, because he should never have the ball in his hands enough or long enough for that to matter.

I viewed it as a pure tank move the first time...the second time though I am not so sure because all it did was hurt all the other players on the team and destroy Sochan's confidence.

[poopbox]

There are top 10 picks that don’t even stay in the league. Someone recently posted that Killian Hayes signed a 1 year deal to try to make a roster, and he was #7 overall. Being a 5th option on a championship team, while not ideal, is probably the median outcome for pick #9, and not the disaster you’re painting it to be.

Going back to the 2019 draft, the first with the flattened odds, the three #9 picks before Jeremy were Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, and Davion Mitchell. None of them are still with their drafting team, and none will likely ever be the #5 on a championship team. Perhaps we need to manage our expectations better.

Rui helped a team get to the conference finals. I think Deni is just an overall better player than Sochan, and Mitchell helped the Kings make the playoffs for the first time in a 1000 years. I also thnink Mitchell is a better player than Sochan.

That's how bad Sochan is. You pointed out 3 guys who you think haven't done much at the #9 picks and 2 of the 3 have done more than Sochan and the 3rd guy, Deni, is arguably just a flat out better player.

[exstatic]

Rui helped a team get to the conference finals. I think Deni is just an overall better player than Sochan, and Mitchell helped the Kings make the playoffs for the first time in a 1000 years. I also thnink Mitchell is a better player than Sochan.

That's how bad Sochan is. You pointed out 3 guys who you think haven't done much at the #9 picks and 2 of the 3 have done more than Sochan and the 3rd guy, Deni, is arguably just a flat out better player.

The point being,those players are support pieces. You implied it was a bad thing for a top 10 pick to become that.

[poopbox]

The point being,those players are support pieces. You implied it was a bad thing for a top 10 pick to become that.

Sochan isn't even a support piece. The teams he has played on have done nothing but be some of the worst teams in the league, and one of the main reasons they are one of the worst in the league is because Jeremy plays on them.

[Trueblood]

The question I would have is...why would anybody care about Sochan passing efficiency and turnover rate, because he should never have the ball in his hands enough or long enough for that to matter.

I viewed it as a pure tank move the first time...the second time though I am not so sure because all it did was hurt all the other players on the team and destroy Sochan's confidence.

If he has the ball in his hands at all he has the choice to pass, dribble, or shoot. So unless he's shooting 100% of the time, then his ability to handle the ball, control turnovers, and pass well are all important parts of his game...

[Trueblood]

I think it is widely considered a failure for his time playing point guard. I didn't suggest or mean to suggest that I thought it was going to be permanent either. I suppose to respond to your point about Jeremy learning new skills, I agree that would be a good goal, but they went too fast. I think that's a reasonable way to look at it.

This is Spurs Talk. Away with you and your 'reasonable' ways :spin

Just kidding. I can agree with that. No matter how it is spun, I think we all agree it was an abject failure on multiple levels.

[Chomag]

Elite and Jeremy should not be in the same sentence. I just don't understand what some here see in him because I haven't seen 1 thing that he can do that puts him an an elite tier.

[ambchang]

I still see sochan being a high level role player in a few years time. Strong defender, good passer and hub in offence. Nails the open jumper, drive and finish at a decent rate.

Not there yet, but will be there by the end of this year.

[playbonner15]

I still see sochan being a high level role player in a few years time. Strong defender, good passer and hub in offence. Nails the open jumper, drive and finish at a decent rate.

Not there yet, but will be there by the end of this year.

Agree. strong defender/good passer/ nails the open jumper and corner three... it's all i can hope for with Sochan. He's as younger than the Thompson twins so I hope he'll get better in time

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

You people are F'ing morons.

[z0sa]

Not elite at any aspect of the game currently, so nay on elite role player. Future star? :lol

[Pauleta14]

The way some stubborn posters find Sochan a "good passer" is mind boggling considering how many times he missed his 7'5 teammate :lmao

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Not elite at any aspect of the game currently, so nay on elite role player. Future star? :lol

Yeah, definitely not enough options provided.

[Frenchfred]

The way some stubborn posters find Sochan a "good passer" is mind boggling considering how many times he missed his 7'5 teammate :lmao

Agreed. He is not a good passer, just average. He is a below average shooter, has below average athleticism. He is an okay defender. We'll see next year but so far he hasn't done much to prove that he is more than a bench player.

[ambchang]

The way some stubborn posters find Sochan a "good passer" is mind boggling considering how many times he missed his 7'5 teammate :lmao

How many times is it?

[Pauleta14]

How many times is it?

countless times :lol

(Pls don't waste time again with ur perimeter "bailout" passes/stats)

[ambchang]

countless times :lol

(Pls don't waste time again with ur perimeter "bailout" passes/stats)

You mean stats don’t work because it doesn’t align with your eye test?

[Pauleta14]

You mean stats don’t work because it doesn’t align with your eye test?

No. I mean in today's NBA raw stats without eye test can be misleading. For ex, nowadays if u pass the ball at the perimeter u get an assist even if the player receiving does all the job'

Check assists below the FT line for ex, those count a lot more. Tre is also one of the worst PG in the league in that aspect/stat, but still get a very decent ast average even if all he does if getting rid of the ball with a perimeter pass.

Same applies for most of Sochan's assists, because him like Tre don't have the confidence and talent to do those. So they avoid doing them (which lead wrongly ppl to think they hated on Wemby)

[ambchang]

No. I mean in today's NBA raw stats without eye test can be misleading. For ex, nowadays if u pass the ball at the perimeter u get an assist even if the player receiving does all the job'

Check assists below the FT line for ex, those count a lot more. Tre is also one of the worst PG in the league in that aspect/stat, but still get a very decent ast average even if all he does if getting rid of the ball with a perimeter pass.

Same applies for most of Sochan's assists, because him like Tre don't have the confidence and talent to do those. So they avoid doing them (which lead wrongly ppl to think they hated on Wemby)

So sochan missed passing to wemby so many times he still managed to passed to wemby enough times for wemby to create and make a shot. Ok.

Btw, do you have any numbers to back it up, or are you spewing whatever comes to your mind as facts again?

[Uriel]

I would be thrilled if Sochan turned into an elite role player. Derrick White is an elite role player, and now he’s getting more playing time in the Olympics than Jayson Tatum and Joel Embiid.

[Pauleta14]

So sochan missed passing to wemby so many times he still managed to passed to wemby enough times for wemby to create and make a shot. Ok.

Btw, do you have any numbers to back it up, or are you spewing whatever comes to your mind as facts again?

Not sure why you're being so defensive tbh

Of course he had assists, what's your point? With all the playing time he had, why wouldn't he?

I'm not hating on Sochan, he's a bit woke but seems a good lad, still hope he shows improvements (last season tho) but his passing or shooting are far from his main issues, his ball handling is less secure than Victor's, his court vision very poor (always head down ffs), he often doesn't sustain his efforts (gives up on plays a surreal amount of time at this level) and doesn't control his emotions (age isn't an excuse for character, see Vic's or Stephon's).

As for the stats, I've seen some pass on ST but please be my guest and prove me wrong with those, let's just deny what we all saw.

[rankingtear]

Sochan is 2nd in net rating with Wemby in 2024. He does a lot of stuff that does not show up in box scores.

[Dex]

Sochan is 2nd in net rating with Wemby in 2024. He does a lot of stuff that does not show up in box scores.

And that's about where I have him ranked unless he blows up this year. His ceiling is probably a good role player and glue guy who can do a lot of the dirty work, but is never going to be elite at anything. I'd be surprised if he ever makes an All-Star or All-NBA/Defense team.

His shooting, as currently constructed, will always limit his ability and his future in the league is probably coming off the bench...

Don't get me wrong...plenty of teams need guys like that on the roster. But people need to pump the brakes on his "potential" just because he was drafted 9th.

[rankingtear]

And that's about where I have him ranked unless he blows up this year. His ceiling is probably a good role player and glue guy who can do a lot of the dirty work, but is never going to be elite at anything. I'd be surprised if he ever makes an All-Star or All-NBA/Defense team.

His shooting, as currently constructed, will always limit his ability and his future in the league is probably coming off the bench...

Don't get me wrong...plenty of teams need guys like that on the roster. But people need to pump the brakes on his "potential" just because he was drafted 9th.

I would not close the book on all defense. He graded as the 2nd best PF at DEPM last season when he actually plays
PF. That puts him as a top 30 impact defender at 20 yrs old. He would still get stronger as he ages. I think him and the Thompson twins are going to be next up on great perimeter defenders.

[Pauleta14]

I could see him make an all defensive team if he becomes the best version of himself

[Dex]

I would not close the book on all defense. He graded as the 2nd best PF at DEPM last season when he actually plays
PF. That puts him as a top 30 impact defender at 20 yrs old. He would still get stronger as he ages. I think him and the Thompson twins are going to be next up on great perimeter defenders.


I could see him make an all defensive team if he becomes the best version of himself

Problem with All-Defense is there is only two teams...so he basically has to be one of the top 10 defenders in the NBA and he has a lot of competition at his spot. He also will face the challenge of sharing votes with Wemby as long he is with the Spurs (similar to how Bowen and Duncan affected each other in some voter's eyes)

Obviously it would be great if he could reach that potential for us...but I'll have to see it to believe it.

[Pauleta14]

Problem with All-Defense is there is only two teams...so he basically has to be one of the top 10 defenders in the NBA and he has a lot of competition at his spot. He also will face the challenge of sharing votes with Wemby as long he is with the Spurs (similar to how Bowen and Duncan affected each other in some voter's eyes)

Obviously it would be great if he could reach that potential for us...but I'll have to see it to believe it.

It would be his ceiling and a lot of stuff (I listed above^^) would need to happen obviously

But Sochan does have a rare affection for being a glue guy, he seems to love defending and with his grit and long arms could become a nightmare defending lead guards & wings especially if he fixes the stuff that keep him off the floor.

We've seen that type of profile in the past like Tony Allen (I know smaller and used to be a baller in highschool but u get my point, can't find other names rn ^^) for ex

[The Truth #6]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C-IS0ZtxR1t/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Basic IG stuff. But buried in there an example of Jeremy's shooting form. Still kind of two handed but seems better than before.

[ambchang]

Not sure why you're being so defensive tbh

Of course he had assists, what's your point? With all the playing time he had, why wouldn't he?

I'm not hating on Sochan, he's a bit woke but seems a good lad, still hope he shows improvements (last season tho) but his passing or shooting are far from his main issues, his ball handling is less secure than Victor's, his court vision very poor (always head down ffs), he often doesn't sustain his efforts (gives up on plays a surreal amount of time at this level) and doesn't control his emotions (age isn't an excuse for character, see Vic's or Stephon's).

As for the stats, I've seen some pass on ST but please be my guest and prove me wrong with those, let's just deny what we all saw.

I’m not sure what’s so defensive about it. I’m not about to do another round of work, waste my time to find stats to backup what I say, only for you to take 20 seconds to spew a bunch of nonsense you gleam from some TikTok video comments as your response. It’s annoying and adds zero value to any discussion when your only purpose is to be a wemby Stan here, not extolling how great he is because he clearly is, but to shoot down all his teammates because wemby didn’t win DPoY, get on the all star team or all nba team. It’s annoying because you have consistently demonstrated that you are more a wemby fan (not an issue in an of itself) masquerading as a spurs fan.

There are stats you can look up yourself, if you can’t find it yourself, it just strengthens my point that you have no interest and/or ability to look up simple things to backup or dispute your own points, instead relying on …. Nothing.

[Pauleta14]

I’m not sure what’s so defensive about it. I’m not about to do another round of work, waste my time to find stats to backup what I say, only for you to take 20 seconds to spew a bunch of nonsense you gleam from some TikTok video comments as your response. It’s annoying and adds zero value to any discussion when your only purpose is to be a wemby Stan here, not extolling how great he is because he clearly is, but to shoot down all his teammates because wemby didn’t win DPoY, get on the all star team or all nba team. It’s annoying because you have consistently demonstrated that you are more a wemby fan (not an issue in an of itself) masquerading as a spurs fan.

There are stats you can look up yourself, if you can’t find it yourself, it just strengthens my point that you have no interest and/or ability to look up simple things to backup or dispute your own points, instead relying on …. Nothing.

There u go! I almost didn't recognised you with ur previous almost respectful posts... :lol

"waste your time"??? lmao are you mentally deranged?? You're the one looking for argmentation

Tiktok?? really? You couln't come up with something better? You'd rather pretend ppl don't watch games but only tiktok videos?? That's how low you're at? :lol

Again the Wemby stan narrative (how lazy tbh) when I've been on ST since 09', criticise him a lot and when it's AT NO POINT the topic of the discussion. You're AGAIN confusing correlation and causation and going ad hominem, a classic of your low IQ narrative on ST. We know you

I'm not shooting down Wemby's teammates... at any point, it's not enough to write things down to make them true. If you took time to read I even said that Sochan could make an All defensive team, wow so much hate!

Your whole post was again pointless, just attention seeking at best, you're just making a fool of yourself :lol Had you really wanted to debate, you'd have gone for those stats you love to refer to but never come up with.

Don't waste my time answering unless you learn how to exchange respectfully. I come on ST to chill not to deal with mental cases like urs

[ambchang]

There u go! I almost didn't recognised you with ur previous almost respectful posts... :lol

"waste your time"??? lmao are you mentally deranged?? You're the one looking for argmentation

Tiktok?? really? You couln't come up with something better? You'd rather pretend ppl don't watch games but only tiktok videos?? That's how low you're at? :lol

Again the Wemby stan narrative (how lazy tbh) when I've been on ST since 09', criticise him a lot and when it's AT NO POINT the topic of the discussion. You're AGAIN confusing correlation and causation and going ad hominem, a classic of your low IQ narrative on ST. We know you

I'm not shooting down Wemby's teammates... at any point, it's not enough to write things down to make them true. If you took time to read I even said that Sochan could make an All defensive team, wow so much hate!

Your whole post was again pointless, just attention seeking at best, you're just making a fool of yourself :lol Had you really wanted to debate, you'd have gone for those stats you love to refer to but never come up with.

Don't waste my time answering unless you learn how to exchange respectfully. I come on ST to chill not to deal with mental cases like urs

What is there to debate. Your entire argument is based on eye test. What am I to do? I have shown stats repeatedly that doesn’t align with your narrative and all you do is continuously moving the goalpost to suit your argument. You started off saying sochan missed countless passes to wemby without any backup, then somehow moved to assists numbers are counted differently as if someone can get assists without passing. It’s bizarre.

And no, it’s not possible to become a player Stan at all after following a team. Convenient Parker was a spur before then. Surprised you weren’t on the site since 02.

[Pauleta14]

What is there to debate. Your entire argument is based on eye test. What am I to do? I have shown stats repeatedly that doesn’t align with your narrative and all you do is continuously moving the goalpost to suit your argument. You started off saying sochan missed countless passes to wemby without any backup, then somehow moved to assists numbers are counted differently as if someone can get assists without passing. It’s bizarre.

And no, it’s not possible to become a player Stan at all after following a team. Convenient Parker was a spur before then. Surprised you weren’t on the site since 02.

What are you to do? :lol

In no specific order...

- Stop going at ppl for basketball takes with mostly ad hominem arguments

- Go take a walk or do some push ups

- If you want to counter one's pov with stats, you need to show or give a link to said stats, not ask ppl to do the job for u

- Most ppl come here to chill, 100% of posters have had stupid and smart takes, u included, it's the life of a forum.

Now for the topic itself...

- Not only I've never been a TP fan, I actually have had a hard time supporting hima a person, he's got so many traits I despise in human beings, I was and still am Manu fan for basketball and personality reasons. Once again your idiotic ad hominem reflex lead you to a wrong conclusion. (stop guessing lmao!)

- FYI I was on ST years before subscribing, following the games play by play bc there were no stream available at that time for most games. I just wasn't comfortable in english enough. Wrong again Sherlock

- As for Sochan, I know ur narrative and even anticipated it asking u not to bother using some non exhautive stats, arguing specifically why those aren't. You can keep thinking I'm a hater to make it easier for ur brain to comprehend, it won't make me one.
One can have doubts, criticism and still be hopefull for a player to turn it around.

- This will be it for me for this convo, as I told u in a previous one, I trully think you're just a contarian with minimalistic intellectual abilities, mostly going at people rather than their points. Always making it hard for ppl to respect you with the agressive way u engage all the time. It doesn't really do any harm but it's pointless in the end.

- I'm an optimistic, we can still have a good exchanges in the future, it's all on u mate :)

[ambchang]

What are you to do? :lol

In no specific order...

- Stop going at ppl for basketball takes with mostly ad hominem arguments

- Go take a walk or do some push ups

- If you want to counter one's pov with stats, you need to show or give a link to said stats, not ask ppl to do the job for u

- Most ppl come here to chill, 100% of posters have had stupid and smart takes, u included, it's the life of a forum.

Now for the topic itself...

- Not only I've never been a TP fan, I actually have had a hard time supporting hima a person, he's got so many traits I despise in human beings, I was and still am Manu fan for basketball and personality reasons. Once again your idiotic ad hominem reflex lead you to a wrong conclusion. (stop guessing lmao!)

- FYI I was on ST years before subscribing, following the games play by play bc there were no stream available at that time for most games. I just wasn't comfortable in english enough. Wrong again Sherlock

- As for Sochan, I know ur narrative and even anticipated it asking u not to bother using some non exhautive stats, arguing specifically why those aren't. You can keep thinking I'm a hater to make it easier for ur brain to comprehend, it won't make me one.
One can have doubts, criticism and still be hopefull for a player to turn it around.

- This will be it for me for this convo, as I told u in a previous one, I trully think you're just a contarian with minimalistic intellectual abilities, mostly going at people rather than their points. Always making it hard for ppl to respect you with the agressive way u engage all the time. It doesn't really do any harm but it's pointless in the end.

- I'm an optimistic, we can still have a good exchanges in the future, it's all on u mate :)so after all that , nothing to back up. Got it.

You came with the assertion that sochan missed many passes to wemby, all I ask is for you to back it up. My problem isn’t you said it. It’s you said it over and over again as it’s some fact. It’s not. Numbers contradict what you said, game play don’t back you up. The only thing that backs you up are a bunch of TikTok videos for click bait throughout the year and you swallowed it hook line and sinker.

As for the Tony vs manu topic, same thing, you came for manu, admitting by my didn’t watch the spurs for a few years conveniently when manu retired, came back for wemby. Player can, not spurs fan.

[Pauleta14]

so after all that , nothing to back up. Got it.

You came with the assertion that sochan missed many passes to wemby, all I ask is for you to back it up. My problem isn’t you said it. It’s you said it over and over again as it’s some fact. It’s not. Numbers contradict what you said, game play don’t back you up. The only thing that backs you up are a bunch of TikTok videos for click bait throughout the year and you swallowed it hook line and sinker.

As for the Tony vs manu topic, same thing, you came for manu, admitting by my didn’t watch the spurs for a few years conveniently when manu retired, came back for wemby. Player can, not spurs fan.

You're an idiot. as "your brain is sick" :lol

I guess you're bored and ST is your whole life but for most of us it's a place to chill and exchange on our passion for the Spurs.

It's clearly A LOT more for u. You've developped a fascinating mind contortion to always find comfort with ur belief (assuming ppl educate themselves on tiktok is a funny 1 tbh!!)

I've answered all ur points many times in this convo and previouses ones, I'm ok with the little entertainement ur funny answers give me daily tbh, if you want to make a point with some stats, be my guest, I have better things to do than proving what everybody with a set of eyes saw the whole season.

Also FYI I took a break from the NBA, not the Spurs, not a fan of hte evolution of the game, lack of defense etc My interest started growing bck with a few players lie Ant and Morant but Wemby was the real motivaton TO MESS UP WITH MY SLEEP because of my passion.

I barely missed 2-3 games (starting from midnight to 2am) this season, living in London and u want to question my commitment or real love for the Spurs? You're funny :lol

Have a nice day Don Quixote

[ambchang]

You're an idiot. as "your brain is sick" :lol

I guess you're bored and ST is your whole life but for most of us it's a place to chill and exchange on our passion for the Spurs.

It's clearly A LOT more for u. You've developped a fascinating mind contortion to always find comfort with ur belief (assuming ppl educate themselves on tiktok is a funny 1 tbh!!)

I've answered all ur points many times in this convo and previouses ones, I'm ok with the little entertainement ur funny answers give me daily tbh, if you want to make a point with some stats, be my guest, I have better things to do than proving what everybody with a set of eyes saw the whole season.

Also FYI I took a break from the NBA, not the Spurs, not a fan of hte evolution of the game, lack of defense etc My interest started growing bck with a few players lie Ant and Morant but Wemby was the real motivaton TO MESS UP WITH MY SLEEP because of my passion.

I barely missed 2-3 games (starting from midnight to 2am) this season, living in London and u want to question my commitment or real love for the Spurs? You're funny :lol

Have a nice day Don Quixote

You wrote an entire essay with nothing but insults and I care more about this?

And of course, nothing to back up your claim that sochan missed countless passes to wemby. :tu

[John B]

Derrick is proving he doesn’t need to be a star yet he’s a necessary cog in the championship team, and now in the national team. While Jalen Brown would’ve been the wrong choice and Tatum is not even getting minutes.

[Pauleta14]

You wrote an entire essay with nothing but insults and I care more about this?

And of course, nothing to back up your claim that sochan missed countless passes to wemby. :tu

That was weak ... :lol

[ambchang]

That was weak ... :lol

So no backup yet? Ain’t going to stop you from repeating it like some sort of fact though.

[Pauleta14]

So no backup yet? Ain’t going to stop you from repeating it like some sort of fact though.

Got my daily entertainment!! :lol

Look, clearly there were too many words and you probably missed some or couldn't focus long enough to reach the 2nd or 3rd lines of my posts so let's try again.

Take a deep breathe, just relax...

It's on you to bring the (legendary) datas you keep reffering to, nobody heard of them and we're all looking forward to be stunned by your findings!

I can't wait!

[ambchang]

Got my daily entertainment!! :lol

Look, clearly there were too many words and you probably missed some or couldn't focus long enough to reach the 2nd or 3rd lines of my posts so let's try again.

Take a deep breathe, just relax...

It's on you to bring the (legendary) datas you keep reffering to, nobody heard of them and we're all looking forward to be stunned by your findings!

I can't wait!

I already did months ago. You just chose to ignore it.

Besides. You made the assertion. I didn’t.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&dir=D&sort=PASSES_MADE Interpret this is you want.

[Pauleta14]

I already did months ago. You just chose to ignore it.

Besides. You made the assertion. I didn’t.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&dir=D&sort=PASSES_MADE Interpret this is you want.

See, that's why I can't take you seriously...

There's nothing in those stats that say Sochan is a good passer. Those general stats don't tell the whole story, we already went through that.

A bailout "pass" on the perimeter where the recepient has to do all the work will still result in an assist for ex

If you wanted to contadict my point you'd find the % of assists below the FT line for ex

It says a lot about you that the eye test tells you Sochan is a good passer with a good court vision and that you can't understand basics statistics

[TD 21]

Players Shooting Dashboard General | Stats | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shots-general?CF=FG2A*GE*300&GeneralRange=Overall&PerMode=Totals&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=FG2_PCT)

Players Advanced | Stats | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=FGA*GE*500&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=EFG_PCT)

Players Advanced | Stats | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=GP*GE*40:MIN*GE*20&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=NET_RATING)

One of the worst offensive players in the league. Even if he were a statistical outlier in terms of rebounding, stocks, "event creation" (spoiler alert: he's not), that's untenable for a starter or high level backup in today's NBA.

[ambchang]

See, that's why I can't take you seriously...

There's nothing in those stats that say Sochan is a good passer. Those general stats don't tell the whole story, we already went through that.

A bailout "pass" on the perimeter where the recepient has to do all the work will still result in an assist for ex

If you wanted to contadict my point you'd find the % of assists below the FT line for ex

It says a lot about you that the eye test tells you Sochan is a good passer with a good court vision and that you can't understand basics statistics

Please keep track of your own arguments. I mean, please. We aren’t talking about him being a good passer. The issue is him missing countless passes to wemby. The numbers do not bear that out.

It’s so frustrating trying to talk to you about these things because you do not seem to have the mental capacity to follow a simple logical flow.

And once again, you found nothing. You presented nothing. You made the assertion sochan missed countless passes to wemby and when challenged you threw a hissy fit and demand others to disprove your baseless assertion. It’s comical.

[ambchang]

Players Shooting Dashboard General | Stats | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shots-general?CF=FG2A*GE*300&GeneralRange=Overall&PerMode=Totals&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=A&sort=FG2_PCT)

Players Advanced | Stats | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=FGA*GE*500&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=EFG_PCT)

Players Advanced | Stats | NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=GP*GE*40:MIN*GE*20&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=NET_RATING)

One of the worst offensive players in the league. Even if he were a statistical outlier in terms of rebounding, stocks, "event creation" (spoiler alert: he's not), that's untenable for a starter or high level backup in today's NBA.

Did you just use net rating to say sochan is one of the worst offensive players in the league? Please expand, because I don’t get your logic.

[Pauleta14]

Please keep track of your own arguments. I mean, please. We aren’t talking about him being a good passer. The issue is him missing countless passes to wemby. The numbers do not bear that out.

It’s so frustrating trying to talk to you about these things because you do not seem to have the mental capacity to follow a simple logical flow.

And once again, you found nothing. You presented nothing. You made the assertion sochan missed countless passes to wemby and when challenged you threw a hissy fit and demand others to disprove your baseless assertion. It’s comical.

Try reading my post again, your answer doesn't make any sense. You're just brassing air at this point.

"once again you found nothing".... :lol You're a troll

Not only I gave u an ex of a more exhaustive stat (below FT line) but I also reminded you multiple times that it's on you to bring those datas bc you're the one constesting. I'm still waiting for those legendary datas...

[ambchang]

Try reading my post again, your answer doesn't make any sense. You're just brassing air at this point.

"once again you found nothing".... :lol You're a troll

Not only I gave u an ex of a more exhaustive stat (below FT line) but I also reminded you multiple times that it's on you to bring those datas bc you're the one constesting. I'm still waiting for those legendary datas...

So why don’t you show it to back your claims up? It makes zero sense. Numbers show that sochan do not miss passes more than an average PF.

Wemby misses passes to sochan. Countless ones. Now the onus is on you to dispute that. You are as stupid as they come. Unbelievable. It’s like trump saying Obama wasn’t born in the US and the onus is on Obama to show his birth certificate to disprove it, only people as ridiculously illogical as you would’ve agreed with that train of logic.

And yes, you have shown nothing. No evidence to back up your claim. It’s as if you try to disprove your stupidity by acting more stupid as if that would work. Every single people who makes a claim should have the ability to back up his or her claim when challenged, the onus isn’t on the challenging party to disprove it. How difficult is that? You are a serial rapist, now you have to show evidence to disprove it. I mean, I’m not sure how this train of logic isn’t so ridiculously stupid that I have to spend pages to explain it to you is incorrect and for you to double down on it.

[Pauleta14]

So why don’t you show it to back your claims up? It makes zero sense. Numbers show that sochan do not miss passes more than an average PF.

Wemby misses passes to sochan. Countless ones. Now the onus is on you to dispute that. You are as stupid as they come. Unbelievable. It’s like trump saying Obama wasn’t born in the US and the onus is on Obama to show his birth certificate to disprove it, only people as ridiculously illogical as you would’ve agreed with that train of logic.

And yes, you have shown nothing. No evidence to back up your claim. It’s as if you try to disprove your stupidity by acting more stupid as if that would work. Every single people who makes a claim should have the ability to back up his or her claim when challenged, the onus isn’t on the challenging party to disprove it. How difficult is that? You are a serial rapist, now you have to show evidence to disprove it. I mean, I’m not sure how this train of logic isn’t so ridiculously stupid that I have to spend pages to explain it to you is incorrect and for you to double down on it.

Honestly, not sure where to find those advance stats and don't have that much time. I just visit ST a few times/day

Timvp mentioned those below the FT line stats for Tre in his post season players analysis, he, like Sochan can have "decent" assist/pass stats but it doesn't give a proper picture bc of the instance I gave u regarding the way "regular" assists are counted.
Today those are A LOT more generous than they used to be.

TP passing to TD in the post almost never gave him an assist for ex, today they give u an assist even if you just pass away the ball.

When I criticise Sochan's passing, it's not technically just the ability to pass itself (not rocket science) but his lack of court vision and habbit of dribbling head down that makes him miss countless of obvious and often easy assists.

I never thought that him Tre or Vassel hated on Vic, but each of them have had logical bb explanation .

Tre for ex, is very smart and never/rarely tries anything that he isn't confident he can do, hence his hesitation at throwing lobs or ast below the FT line, those represent a higher risk of TO. Devin is a bit in the same case eventho contrary to Tre he's shown since post ASG a willingness to work on it and take risks. He's shown massive improvement to the point of passing Tre as Vic's best passer. (for all the criticism I've had for the 1st half of the seson, I seem to be among the minority now on ST who really believe in him and can't wait to see his playmaking and passing progesses)

Sochan is different, just a guess, but I think he has so many aspects of his game to work on that passing doesn't appear as a priority compare to his shooting. Let's hope he's had time to work on it this summer.

As for his connection with Wemby, Sochan assisted Vic 49 times this season on 74 games played. That's 1.5 ast/game to Vic, which seems decent at 1st, but then u realised that he had a few games with +3-4 ast to him (I recall the MIL game for ex), which means there have been plenty of games wihtout any ast, in those there's also a month of him playing PG (with a lot of opp to assist Vic).

Now u can keep this debate on the analytic side or u can just use common sense and ur memory of the games. I haven't missed a game and we've all witness Vic's teammates struggle to pass him the ball in postion.

what is really bothering u? That it's Sochan in particular?

I genuinely don't get why you're so defensive when I'm not even a hater and said multiplt time I'm still hopefull Jeremy will improve on his fundamentals.

If you're trying to sell Sochan as a good passer I just don't get it... Forget the stats, we haven't seen the same games

Aside of saying that I'm wrong, you haven't brought any argumwnt that would defend your point. (If I come a tell someone he's wrong, it's on me to justify or argument, not the guy i'm criticising... :lol)

[ambchang]

Honestly, not sure where to find those advance stats and don't have that much time. I just visit ST a few times/day

Timvp mentioned those below the FT line stats for Tre in his post season players analysis, he, like Sochan can have "decent" assist/pass stats but it doesn't give a proper picture bc of the instance I gave u regarding the way "regular" assists are counted.
Today those are A LOT more generous than they used to be.

TP passing to TD in the post almost never gave him an assist for ex, today they give u an assist even if you just pass away the ball.

When I criticise Sochan's passing, it's not technically just the ability to pass itself (not rocket science) but his lack of court vision and habbit of dribbling head down that makes him miss countless of obvious and often easy assists.

I never thought that him Tre or Vassel hated on Vic, but each of them have had logical bb explanation .

Tre for ex, is very smart and never/rarely tries anything that he isn't confident he can do, hence his hesitation at throwing lobs or ast below the FT line, those represent a higher risk of TO. Devin is a bit in the same case eventho contrary to Tre he's shown since post ASG a willingness to work on it and take risks. He's shown massive improvement to the point of passing Tre as Vic's best passer. (for all the criticism I've had for the 1st half of the seson, I seem to be among the minority now on ST who really believe in him and can't wait to see his playmaking and passing progesses)

Sochan is different, just a guess, but I think he has so many aspects of his game to work on that passing doesn't appear as a priority compare to his shooting. Let's hope he's had time to work on it this summer.

As for his connection with Wemby, Sochan assisted Vic 49 times this season on 74 games played. That's 1.5 ast/game to Vic, which seems decent at 1st, but then u realised that he had a few games with +3-4 ast to him (I recall the MIL game for ex), which means there have been plenty of games wihtout any ast, in those there's also a month of him playing PG (with a lot of opp to assist Vic).

Now u can keep this debate on the analytic side or u can just use common sense and ur memory of the games. I haven't missed a game and we've all witness Vic's teammates struggle to pass him the ball in postion.

what is really bothering u? That it's Sochan in particular?

I genuinely don't get why you're so defensive when I'm not even a hater and said multiplt time I'm still hopefull Jeremy will improve on his fundamentals.

If you're trying to sell Sochan as a good passer I just don't get it... Forget the stats, we haven't seen the same games

Aside of saying that I'm wrong, you haven't brought any argumwnt that would defend your point. (If I come a tell someone he's wrong, it's on me to justify or argument, not the guy i'm criticising... :lol)

Sochan and teammates struggling to pass the ball to wemby is very different from them missing wemby. I’m not even sure what your assertions are anymore. It jumps all over the place when challenged and you have now flat out admitted to not having any backup. It’s all eye test.

I don’t deny sochan isn’t a particularly incredible passer, because he’s clearly not, but he is at least a slightly above average passer for a PF with limited offensive skills. That appears to be the general consensus and the numbers back it up. But that won’t stop you from repeating the contrary as some sort of fact when it’s been pointed out to you numerous times.

And no, I’m not saying you are wrong that sochan missed countless passes to wemby, I’m saying you are spewing shit off your ass you can’t back up. It’s comical that you are putting the onus on others to prove your assertion wrong as in you are always right and some sort of authority. Either back your claims up or admit you just eye test everything and can’t back your claims up.

[sfernald]

There’s a lot more nuance to this than these choices offer.

I would say let’s win now by bringing in as many quality vets as possible to surround around Wemby without mortgaging our future to any serious degree.

Which I think is pretty much what they have done so far this offseason with the smart acquisitions of CP3 and Black Falcon.

[Pauleta14]

Sochan and teammates struggling to pass the ball to wemby is very different from them missing wemby. I’m not even sure what your assertions are anymore. It jumps all over the place when challenged and you have now flat out admitted to not having any backup. It’s all eye test.

I don’t deny sochan isn’t a particularly incredible passer, because he’s clearly not, but he is at least a slightly above average passer for a PF with limited offensive skills. That appears to be the general consensus and the numbers back it up. But that won’t stop you from repeating the contrary as some sort of fact when it’s been pointed out to you numerous times.

And no, I’m not saying you are wrong that sochan missed countless passes to wemby, I’m saying you are spewing shit off your ass you can’t back up. It’s comical that you are putting the onus on others to prove your assertion wrong as in you are always right and some sort of authority. Either back your claims up or admit you just eye test everything and can’t back your claims up.

So you're going to waste my time with "struggling to pass is diff than missing"???

Also ignore again the fact that it's on you to bring those legendary datas that support ur pov rather than trying to put it on me?

I genuinely tried. I'm done now :lol

[ambchang]

So you're going to waste my time with "struggling to pass is diff than missing"???

Also ignore again the fact that it's on you to bring those legendary datas that support ur pov rather than trying to put it on me?

I genuinely tried. I'm done now :lol

If you can’t even tell the difference between struggling to pass and missing passes is, I really dont know what to say. M
And again, you bring up the assertion that sochan missed countless passes to wemby. So back it up. Otherwise, you are a proven serial rapist unless proven otherwise.

[Pauleta14]

If you can’t even tell the difference between struggling to pass and missing passes is, I really dont know what to say. M
And again, you bring up the assertion that sochan missed countless passes to wemby. So back it up. Otherwise, you are a proven serial rapist unless proven otherwise.

You're at a level of comfortable idiocy I've rarely encountered tbh.

OK let me help you, got a few min to spare ...

You should start by applying ur own advises to yoursef, you are incapable of bringing any data that support ur points but keep asking for those without realising the irony.

Your same obssesion with those "data" clearly make u miss the big picture and dismiss what you/we've all seen for +100 games (74 games personnaly, haven't watched him last season).

As a result your (funny) brain seems to have lost any ability to trust what you are watching bc of your own bias.

Lastly, FYI stats don't teach anything and should not be isolated, it's the best way to end up with a wrong conclusion. They only confirm in a diff way what you are able to see during the games and should only be interpreted in their globality as it's the cobinaisons of multiple datas that gives the clearer picture.

You are in full intellectual masturbation mode mate, keep playing, you'll end up making those same data say anything you want/need.

I'll let you have the last word, I'm good, this convo isn't going anywhere :lol

[ambchang]

You're at a level of comfortable idiocy I've rarely encountered tbh.

OK let me help you, got a few min to spare ...

You should start by applying ur own advises to yoursef, you are incapable of bringing any data that support ur points but keep asking for those without realising the irony.

Your same obssesion with those "data" clearly make u miss the big picture and dismiss what you/we've all seen for +100 games (74 games personnaly, haven't watched him last season).

As a result your (funny) brain seems to have lost any ability to trust what you are watching bc of your own bias.

Lastly, FYI stats don't teach anything and should not be isolated, it's the best way to end up with a wrong conclusion. They only confirm in a diff way what you are able to see during the games and should only be interpreted in their globality as it's the cobinaisons of multiple datas that gives the clearer picture.

You are in full intellectual masturbation mode mate, keep playing, you'll end up making those same data say anything you want/need.

I'll let you have the last word, I'm good, this convo isn't going anywhere :lol
Follow me, it was your point. I challenged it. Get it?

[KobesAchilles]

Dude is best used as a solid bench player. I think that's a good role for him

[Pauleta14]

Follow me, it was your point. I challenged it. Get it?

Thanks, you finally admit you're a troll

It was good entertainment tho, no hard feeling

[exstatic]

OMG, will you two:

Get a room

Put each other on ignore

Or

Take it to PMs.

[ambchang]

Thanks, you finally admit you're a troll

It was good entertainment tho, no hard feeling

You are so full of yourself that challenging you is considered a troll. It’s pretty amazing.

Sochan, based on stats, have about the same ratio of assists to potential assists with most non PGs. He is limited offensively and doesn’t create particularly well. But to single him out as someone who miss countless passes to wemby (funny how it’s wemby in particular and not his teammates, as if ifs acceptable to miss passes to Vassell and Tre jones but not to wemby) is just pure hate.

Instead of admitting you just eye test everything you out the onus on others to prove you wrong while doing nothing to back up your claim, as if pretending to be stupid is some sort of defence.

[Pauleta14]

You are so full of yourself that challenging you is considered a troll. It’s pretty amazing.

Sochan, based on stats, have about the same ratio of assists to potential assists with most non PGs. He is limited offensively and doesn’t create particularly well. But to single him out as someone who miss countless passes to wemby (funny how it’s wemby in particular and not his teammates, as if ifs acceptable to miss passes to Vassell and Tre jones but not to wemby) is just pure hate.

Instead of admitting you just eye test everything you out the onus on others to prove you wrong while doing nothing to back up your claim, as if pretending to be stupid is some sort of defence.

i forgot about you... :lol

Ok fine, Sochan is great

[ambchang]

i forgot about you... :lol

Ok fine, Sochan is great

So you are stupid, and you have amnesia? Back and forth for a whole week and you forgot? Are you proud to be retarded?

Sochan isn't great, I am just asking what are you basing your assertion of Sochan missed countless passes to Wemby from. You have no backup, take it a move on.

[Pauleta14]

So you are stupid, and you have amnesia? Back and forth for a whole week and you forgot? Are you proud to be retarded?

Sochan isn't great, I am just asking what are you basing your assertion of Sochan missed countless passes to Wemby from. You have no backup, take it a move on.

I gave you an out, almost an olive branch with a little humour and you still come back??? :lol

Are you having a bad day?

Have you done your pushups/pullups as I advised you to do?

What about the breathing exercices? :lol

You take care mate

[ambchang]

I gave you an out, almost an olive branch with a little humour and you still come back??? :lol

Are you having a bad day?

Have you done your pushups/pullups as I advised you to do?

What about the breathing exercices? :lol

You take care mate

An out of what? You are the one who is acting all asinine throughout the entire conversation. I’m not all the surprised you take acting like a retarded dick as being humourous. Explains a lot.

[Pauleta14]

An out of what? You are the one who is acting all asinine throughout the entire conversation. I’m not all the surprised you take acting like a retarded dick as being humourous. Explains a lot.

ffs get a life mate :lol

I told you u won, I don't care. Just put me on ignore if it bothers ur life that much

I'm done with this convo

[ambchang]

ffs get a life mate :lol

I told you u won, I don't care. Just put me on ignore if it bothers ur life that much

I'm done with this convo

You’ve said you are done with this convo about four times and you are still here. So you clearly care.

[Chomag]

You guys keep saying Sochan to be this and that, yet that baffles me because he has not shown anything that says he can be this and that.

Great if he does somehow become something like that but I just don't understand the hype this guy gets here when he has shown nothing above at being any of that.

I'm seeing him being a bench journeyman throughout his career at best and Hopefully Spurs can trade him to find a better piece before other teams catch on to how mediocre a player he is.

[Sugus]

You guys keep saying Sochan to be this and that yet it baffles me because he has not shown anything that says he can be this and that.

Great if he does but I just don't understand the hype this guy gets here when he has shown nothing above at an elite level.

Great if he somehow drastically improves but I'm seeing him being a bench journeyman throughout his career at best.

I can't believe it's been two whole pages of back-and-forth without a single stat being presented to support any argument whatsoever. Let me break the ice on that.

Not that I'm saying Sochan will be "this or that", but I do personally like his defensive presence and switchability, and at least some stats back it up as being good-to-great;

https://i.redd.it/rimtunpz9zed1.jpeg

That's some elite defensive company to be among.

[Pauleta14]

You’ve said you are done with this convo about four times and you are still here. So you clearly care.

That was just related to the unnecessary insults of ur post, not the convo

And u should thx Sugus :lol

[The Truth #6]

I hate to get off topic, but Sochan is likely not ever going to be an on ball player, but he will need time to learn team defense and as the Spurs finally begin to move on from tanking lineups, the team can hopefully start to gel. Like everyone in the NBA, his ceiling will be determined by his shooting. He will need time but I expect gradual growth to continue for several years in his overall game.

[ambchang]

That was just related to the unnecessary insults of ur post, not the convo

And u should thx Sugus :lol

I already presented it and what Sugas said has nothing to do with sochan missing passes to wemby.