ESPN: Gregg Popovich, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwyane Wade among HOF nominees

[scott]

Tony as well

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35299436/gregg-popovich-dirk-nowitzki-dwyane-wade-hof-nominees


Gregg Popovich has been at the Hall of Fame enshrinement ceremony many times over the years, always there to show support for someone on the stage.Next year, he might be there in a different capacity.
The NBA's all-time winningest coach -- who has quietly declined overtures from the Hall in the past -- is among the list of prominent first-time nominees for the 2023 class released Wednesday by the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame. (https://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2023/)
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https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/photo/2017/0401/r195673_1296x1296_1-1.jpg&w=130&h=130&scale=crop&location=center (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28220366/basketball-hall-fame-class-2023-nominees-schedule-more)Basketball Hall of Fame: Class of 2023 nominees, schedule and more (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28220366/basketball-hall-fame-class-2023-nominees-schedule-more)1h


Also on the ballot for the first time: Dirk Nowitzki, Tony Parker, Pau Gasol and Dwyane Wade. They were all expected; Popovich was the biggest surprise on the list, since it's never been clear until now when he would allow the Hall to list him as a candidate.

[lefty20]

Was just about to post this.

He's been eligible for a while. I'm surprised that he finally decided to agree to the listing while he's still coaching.

Maybe he was waiting for the final member of the Big 3 to be enshrined or maybe it means that this is his last year of coaching.

[scott]

Was just about to post this.

He's been eligible for a while. I'm surprised that he finally decided to agree to the listing while he's still coaching.

Maybe he was waiting for the final member of the Big 3 to be enshrined or maybe it means that this is his last year of coaching.

yeah, i was thinking this might be a signal that he is retiring.

also, would be fitting to go in with TP.

[slick'81]

The goat pop is hanging them up:(

[baseline bum]

yeah, i was thinking this might be a signal that he is retiring.

also, would be fitting to go in with TP.

Damn it's going to suck going back to the mid 80s to mid 90s style coaching carousel after 25 years of Pop.

[Mugen]

Stacked class tbh.

[scott]

Damn it's going to suck going back to the mid 80s to mid 90s style coaching carousel after 25 years of Pop.

Even the Pre-Pop DRob era was pretty rough from a coaching POV. Lucas and Bob Hill both had .650+ winning %s but still didn't inspire the kind of long-term confidence and security Pop has given us. The average tenure of an NBA coach is 2.4 years... in all likelihood, that is what is in store.

[Mugen]

Don't be too sad when Pop retires. The fact is the team won't have enough talent for at least another 5-6 years for the coaching to matter tbh :lol

[heyheymymy]

lol at JUICE Wade aka growth hormone Jawbone Dwyane.

[wildbill2u]

The thing about Pop is that he has been more than a coach. He's also been a life mentor for players and coaches who came into his orbit.

[tonight...you]

The thing about Pop is that he has been more than a coach. He's also been a life mentor for players and coaches who came into his orbit.
His coaching tree is one of the most influential phenomena in all of the NBA's history and it's still ongoing.
Phil Jackson's coaching tree is like two twigs and some leaves that died.

[spurraider21]

His coaching tree is one of the most influential phenomena in all of the NBA's history and it's still ongoing.
Phil Jackson's coaching tree is like two twigs and some leaves that died.
part of that is just coaching long enough that you end up having tons of assistants

[Tyronn Lue]

Probably wants to get in before Tony so there will still be food left at the banquets.

[John B]

Tony should be a first ballot. But with the stacked class, and now the unexpected inclusion of Coach Pop, would Tony be pushed off? But two of the Big 3, and for sure the coach as 1st ballot, it would be an insult not to do the same for Tony.

[tonight...you]

part of that is just coaching long enough that you end up having tons of assistants
You can diminish his legacy all you want. Matters not to me.

[spurraider21]

You can diminish his legacy all you want. Matters not to me.
you could also just look at that and say longevity in this business is a good thing. dont have to be such a downer lol

[baseline bum]

Don't be too sad when Pop retires. The fact is the team won't have enough talent for at least another 5-6 years for the coaching to matter tbh :lol

Coaching is going to matter hugely for player development.

[tonight...you]

you could also just look at that and say longevity in this business is a good thing. dont have to be such a downer lol
No downer,
Just saying...

[Mr. Body]

He just wants to overshadow Parker.

[Uriel]

Pop's successor (Quin Snyder) is already waiting in the wings. He's doing a great job this year, but it's time.

[exstatic]

Pop's successor (Quin Snyder) is already waiting in the wings. He's doing a great job this year, but it's time.

Quin Synder walked away, and is sitting on his ass this year. Will Hardy is the Utah coach, and has a better chance of succeeding Pop, although the smart money should be on the very obvious coach in waiting, Bret Brown.

[CGD]

Good class. some nice parity among the players here.

An aside, I still find it nuts that people were putting KG in the same stratosphere as Kobe and Duncan during that class. No shade on KG, but come on now, he doesn’t touch those other two…

[XDT76]

I remember Pop did said he will not consider HOF until the big 3s are in probably he is sure that Parker will be in an allowed the HOF to list him as eligible .

[exstatic]

Good class. some nice parity among the players here.

An aside, I still find it nuts that people were putting KG in the same stratosphere as Kobe and Duncan during that class. No shade on KG, but come on now, he doesn’t touch those other two…

KG was an extremely talented player, but wasn’t a franchise guy. Never led his own team to a title. Had to connect with two other All Stars before he got his one ring.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

wasn’t a franchise guy. Never led his own team to a title.
MVP-04 wasn't a franchise guy. Yeah.
https://a.d-cd.net/518e369s-960.jpg

[XDT76]

KG was an extremely talented player, but wasn’t a franchise guy. Never led his own team to a title. Had to connect with two other All Stars before he got his one ring.

By your definition there is almost no franchise Player even Curry and Durant are not.

[exstatic]

By your definition there is almost no franchise Player even Curry and Durant are not.

Curry actually led GS to a title before Durant mercked his way there. Durant isn’t. Just look at BKN.

Do you think there are 30 franchise players? One per team?

[XDT76]

Curry actually led GS to a title before Durant mercked his way there. Durant isn’t. Just look at BKN.

Do you think there are 30 franchise players? One per team?

Aren't klay and Draymond all stars? Franchise players are players who people can immediately associate with a Franchise and immediately make the team a contentor whether they eventually win a championship is not mandatory. Like Yao Ming and Rockets like Malone to Jazz like Payton to Supersonics. What you describe is more in line with GOAT status.

[exstatic]

Aren't klay and Draymond all stars? Franchise players are players who people can immediately associate with a Franchise and immediately make the team a contentor whether they eventually win a championship is not mandatory. Like Yao Ming and Rockets like Malone to Jazz like Payton to Supersonics. What you describe is more in line with GOAT status.
Difference of opinion. Everybody wants a franchise guy in the draft. They’re not looking for a face for the franchise. We have that in Keldon, but he won’t lead us to a title, or even the playoffs. KG never made the Timberwolves contenders. That’s why I don’t consider him a franchise guy. He played with 5 different All Stars, Starbury, Gugliotta, Sczerbiak,cassell, and Spree, and made only one conference final as The Guy.

Draymond was really exposed when the other two were out, and would you be saying Tim wasn’t a franchise guy because he had Tony and Manu? They were All Stars BECAUSE of Tim, just like Klay and Draymond because of Steph. Tim or Steph never moved around to make super teams like KG did, because he couldn’t get it done.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Difference of opinion. Everybody wants a franchise guy in the draft. They’re not looking for a face for the franchise. We have that in Keldon, but he won’t lead us to a title, or even the playoffs. KG never made the Timberwolves contenders. That’s why I don’t consider him a franchise guy. He played with 5 different All Stars, Starbury, Gugliotta, Sczerbiak,cassell, and Spree, and made only one conference final as The Guy.

Draymond was really exposed when the other two were out, and would you be saying Tim wasn’t a franchise guy because he had Tony and Manu? They were All Stars BECAUSE of Tim, just like Klay and Draymond because of Steph. Tim or Steph never moved around to make super teams like KG did, because he couldn’t get it done.
So Robinson wasn't a franchise guy?

[ambchang]

Good class. some nice parity among the players here.

An aside, I still find it nuts that people were putting KG in the same stratosphere as Kobe and Duncan during that class. No shade on KG, but come on now, he doesn’t touch those other two…

If you go by narratives. By any objective measures, Garnett is up there.

He is definitely below Duncan in the all time rankings, and all of that really comes down to playoffs success, and that is really a function of two things:
1) The make up of the team, of which they were gutted due to the Joe Smith signing; and
2) Garnett couldn't carry a team on offence like Duncan or Kobe could

Hypothetically, I don't think Garnett would win 5 titles if you were to replace him with Duncan, or even particularly close. I don't see him carrying the Spurs offence like Duncan did in those 4 down years (99, 03 and 05), and by 2014, Garnett was just totally done. The only title I see them winning was 2007, and that would be a stretch as it would be tough for the Spurs to go past the Suns with Garnett carrying that offence.

That said, I don't see Duncan winning one single title with the Wolves either, that franchise was just so poorly run.

If you replace Garnett with Kobe on the Wolves team, they don't even make the playoffs most years, and if you replace Kobe with Garnett on those 3 peat Lakers team, the Lakers will likely win a couple of titles, at minimum, with 02 being the only maybe as Shaq was that dominant.

Looking at the numbers:




Garnett
Duncan
Kobe


MVPs
1
2
1


League Leader
RPG 4 times, total points once
Tot Reb once
Points 4 times, PPG twice


League Leader Career
10th in Reb, 55th in assists, 19th in steals, 20th in blocks, 22nd in points
7th in rebs, 6th in blocks, 18th in points
33rd in assists, 17th in steals, 4th in points


Career Playoffs
42nd in points, 18th in rebounds, 61st in assists, 36th in steals, 23rd in blocks
6th in points, 3rd in rebounds, 34th in assists, 44th in steals, 1st in blocks
4th in points, 46th in rebounds, 11th in assists, 6th in steals, 41st in blocks


Advanced Stats Lead
1st in PER twice, 1st in WS twice, 1st in BPM twice, 1st in VORP twice, 1st in DRtg twice
1st in WS twice, 1st in DWS 5 times, 1st in DBPM once, 1st in VORP once, 1st in Drtg 4 times
1st in usage thrice :lol



When you look at the numbers, Kobe does not even compare other than points, and especially when you look at advanced stats. Garnett's advanced stats peak is higher than Duncan's peak, and that is a function of him having to carry everything because his team sucks. Kobe's peak years is comparable to Duncan's and Garnett's career average in advanced stats. The only thing that saved his butt was a) He had Shaq or the most dominate frontline in the league (MVPau, Odom, and to a lesser extent Bynum), and b) He died early. Before his death, he was routinely rated as a top 10 to 15 player, while Duncan was in the 5 to 7 range, with Garnett in the 15 to 20 range, after his death, he is in all the top 10 lists, and often finish top 5 or even top 3 by some of those fanbois.

If I were to start a team, I would still choose Duncan over both of them any day, but it's a tough choice between Garnett and Kobe. It's much easier to find another Pierce than it is to find another Shaq.

[ambchang]

Difference of opinion. Everybody wants a franchise guy in the draft. They’re not looking for a face for the franchise. We have that in Keldon, but he won’t lead us to a title, or even the playoffs. KG never made the Timberwolves contenders. That’s why I don’t consider him a franchise guy. He played with 5 different All Stars, Starbury, Gugliotta, Sczerbiak,cassell, and Spree, and made only one conference final as The Guy.

Draymond was really exposed when the other two were out, and would you be saying Tim wasn’t a franchise guy because he had Tony and Manu? They were All Stars BECAUSE of Tim, just like Klay and Draymond because of Steph. Tim or Steph never moved around to make super teams like KG did, because he couldn’t get it done.

I am not ready to put Stephon Marbury and Wally Szcerbiak in the same library section, let alone sentence, as Ginobili and Parker.

[exstatic]

So Robinson wasn't a franchise guy?

He’s KG, with a late career savior. Without Duncan, he’d be lumped in with Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Barkley as a guy who couldn’t get it done.

[TD 21]

Damn it's going to suck going back to the mid 80s to mid 90s style coaching carousel after 25 years of Pop.

The next coach will be here long term, just like Snyder was with the Jazz, Tomlin with the Steelers, etc. Certain franchises, that becomes part of their schtick.

Like all of them, it won't matter though. The personnel will.




KG was an extremely talented player, but wasn’t a franchise guy. Never led his own team to a title. Had to connect with two other All Stars before he got his one ring.

:lmao At the old RINGZ! without context argument.

Garnett didn't have a legitimate chance until he was traded to the Celtics, where he immediately won a championship.

Meanwhile, Curry benefitted from avoiding/beating decimated teams.

Just because Garnett and Robinson weren't Duncan and Olajuwon in terms of not being back-to-the-basket centric and therefore unable to be go-to scorers on a championship contender, there's no credible argument for their not being franchise players.

[XDT76]

He’s KG, with a late career savior. Without Duncan, he’d be lumped in with Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Barkley as a guy who couldn’t get it done.

Your definition of Franchise guy sets a very high bar, even Bird and Magic has multiple all stars on their team in order to win championship. Also Curry has shown that without Klay the warriors is only an average team 2 years ago.

[KobesAchilles]

Eh there are variations of franchise players which I think shows the wide gulf between Tim and KG. KG needed all stars around him to contend. Tim won a championship without any other all star on the team in 03 and had them in the WCFs with a shitty team as well. KG was never at that level.

As far as the KG ringz count with the Spurs it would probably be at most 3. And the only way he gets 3 is if we 3peat from 06-08. KG wasn’t tough enough in the post to win against the 05 pistons. He isn’t beating Shaq and Kobe in any series from 200-2004 (tel:200-2004). And he would’ve gotten demolished by the Blazers in 99. 09 Manu was hurt and 2010 maybe we make the WCFs with him. I don’t know if we beat Phoenix that year regardless.

KG is an enigma for me to rank. I have DRob well above him bc Drobs teams were worse, his ownership was just as bad, and he least at won in the regular season which is something KG never did. It’s unsettling to me that he was always the 8th seed and bounced in the first round. I think to me that shows KG was immature and a bad leader. I think he learned a lot about leadership in Boston but had zero in Minnesota. You can’t lose in the first round 8 times, miss the playoffs in ur prime twice, and then just be known as a high end franchise guy. Something between his ears just doesn’t click as a franchise player to me.

Also Curry led his team to the finals 6 times. He’s allowed an off year

[Proxy]

KG is great, not in the same sentence as TD. He's in the DRob and Dirk range, under both tho, but top 25 still imo

[exstatic]

Your definition of Franchise guy sets a very high bar, even Bird and Magic has multiple all stars on their team in order to win championship. Also Curry has shown that without Klay the warriors is only an average team 2 years ago.

Bird MADE McHale and Parrish All Stars. Curry MADE Klay and Donkey All Stars. Neither of them failed, and then ran off to form super teams with their friends.

[scott]

All-Star
HOFer
Franchise Player
Superstar
All-Time Great

Is that the proper hierarchy? If so, I see KG definitely being a franchise player, but not quite on the cusp of Superstar. Tim, Kobe, Shaq to me are the ones who fall in the "Superstar" category over this time frame, with Lebron just getting started in that category. Iverson, KG, Wade, Nash, Kidd, Dirk being the "franchise players" of the time. TMac might be the cutoff between right below franchise player. I think having Franchise Player above HOFer is appropriate. Guys like Tony and Manu are clear HOFers, but not franchise guys. I also think it is very possible to be a franchise guy without being a superstar.

Fun message board topic.

[spurraider21]

what an absurd definition of franchise player lmao. so until what, 2012, lebron wasn't a franchise player? jordan wasn't a franchise player for the first 7-8 years of his career?

or once somebody wins a ring, do you retroactively say they were a franchise player all along? laughable

[TD 21]

^

Franchise player = Superstar.

MVP caliber
All-NBA caliber
All-Star caliber

If you're perennially in the first two, you're HOF caliber.

Of course, within' tiers there's subsets. Using the names you provided, since all were regarded as MVP caliber at various points, James is tier 1, Duncan and O'Neal are tier 2, Bryant, Garnett and Nowitzki are tier 3, Wade and McGrady are tier 4, Nash, Kidd and Iverson are tier 5.

[exstatic]

what an absurd definition of franchise player lmao. so until what, 2012, lebron wasn't a franchise player? jordan wasn't a franchise player for the first 7-8 years of his career?

or once somebody wins a ring, do you retroactively say they were a franchise player all along? laughable

Both LeBron and MJ were thought of as choking losers until they won. Detroit beat their asses for like 6 years with less talent. I lived through the totality of both of their careers. LeBrons legacy will also be tarnished for two things: moving around so much to form super teams, and losing so many goddam finals.

[spurraider21]

Both LeBron and MJ were thought of as choking losers until they won. Detroit beat their asses for like 6 years with less talent. I lived through the totality of both of their careers. LeBrons legacy will also be tarnished for two things: moving around so much to form super teams, and losing so many goddam finals.
ok but was lebron a franchise player? and if so, was he only a franchise player specifically in the years that he won championships but none of the years in between?

[XDT76]

Bird MADE McHale and Parrish All Stars. Curry MADE Klay and Donkey All Stars. Neither of them failed, and then ran off to form super teams with their friends.

I am not arguing that Bird or Curry is not a franchise player, but the point that KG needs 2 all stars player with him to win a championship makes him a non franchise player. To me a franchise player is the best player on a team and make them a contender or make general public aware of the team and KG definitely make people notice the wolves. Of course not every best player is a franchise player, like our current team has none. I would be interested to know your definition of a franchise player.

[KobesAchilles]

ok but was lebron a franchise player? and if so, was he only a franchise player specifically in the years that he won championships but none of the years in between?
I think a franchise player can be one who brings regular season success and playoff success. You don’t need to win the title to be considered one, but you can’t be bounced in the first round every year like Carmelo or KG. Like if you lead your team to around 55 wins and make the semis, CFs, or Finals regularly then you are a franchise player.

In this scenario Lebron would be a franchise player bc he led Cleveland to plenty of second rounds and had back to back seasons of 60+ wins. He also led them to the finals. Lebron was a high end franchise player during that span. But he wasn’t an all timer yet bc he hadn’t won anything. He was in the Barkley category (when he played for the Suns).

[XDT76]

I think a franchise player can be one who brings regular season success and playoff success. You don’t need to win the title to be considered one, but you can’t be bounced in the first round every year like Carmelo or KG. Like if you lead your team to around 55 wins and make the semis, CFs, or Finals regularly then you are a franchise player.

In this scenario Lebron would be a franchise player bc he led Cleveland to plenty of second rounds and had back to back seasons of 60+ wins. He also led them to the finals. Lebron was a high end franchise player during that span. But he wasn’t an all timer yet bc he hadn’t won anything. He was in the Barkley category (when he played for the Suns).

At least they did much better than Anthony "who is better than Timmy as claimed by Lakers fan" Davis.

[KobesAchilles]

At least they did much better than Anthony "who is better than Timmy as claimed by Lakers fan" Davis.
That’s a rather long nickname :lol

But I mean I don’t consider AD a franchise player either. The dude is just too wimpy. He has all the talent to be and none of the will power. Just like Carmelo had all the talent and none of the maturity. And KG had all the tools but none of the leadership. None of them are really franchise players but they should’ve been. Also for context the Timberwolves as an actual franchise have 2 playoff series victories. That’s it. Two. If KG is your franchise guy then you and your employees don’t have to worry about any schedule conflicts once April ends. You have wide open summers for any trips you want to plan.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

He just wants to overshadow Parker.

punishment for the mrs barry incident tbh

[talkspurs]

I would say franchise players also have to play most of the time with one franchise. aka Lebron would not be a franchise player because you cant really put him with one franchise.

[Russ]

I'd love to debate whether someone is a franchise player (someday).

In the meantime, Merry Christmas to all.

[TDMVPDPOY]

IF POP is waiting for the big 3 to be all inducted, they he should continue on waiting....coatriders in the hof...wtf