Spurs descent into the worst defensive NBA team ever

[offset formation]

Figured this was worthy of its own thread.

I ran across a tweet today and although I knew we were bad -- I've recently been ranting about our poor defense over the last multiple years, and our current league worst defensive stats like +/-, and PPG -- until I saw the tweet, I had no idea we were currently the worst defensive team in NBA history. And rank near the worst ALL-TIME in several other categories.

The Spurs have one of the worst defenses in NBA history...

-Worst Defensive Rating (119.9) EVER
-3rd-worst opponent 3P% (39.9%) EVER
-25th-worst opponent FG% (50.7%) EVER
-First team to allow <120 PPG since '90-'91

Just a strange sight from a team coached by Gregg Popovich...

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1615377113497964550?s=19

[Ariel]

Just in time. Thanks Pop!

[lefty20]

Whatever it takes, tbh.

[bluebellmaniac]

Whatever it takes, tbh.

If true, Pop deserves a bonus!

Way to go guys, we getting serious.

#1 Tank Commander!

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If true, Pop deserves a bonus!

Way to go guys, we getting serious.

#1 Tank Commander!

Would agree if this wasn't a trend. But it is. Several years running now. Not sure Wembanyama changes that substantially. Which is my main concern.

[exstatic]

Figured this was worthy of its own thread.

I ran across a tweet today and although I knew we were bad -- I've recently been ranting about our poor defense over the last multiple years, and our current league worst defensive stats like +/-, and PPG -- until I saw the tweet, I had no idea we were currently the worst defensive team in NBA history. And rank near the worst ALL-TIME in several other categories.

The Spurs have one of the worst defenses in NBA history...

-Worst Defensive Rating (119.9) EVER
-3rd-worst opponent 3P% (39.9%) EVER
-25th-worst opponent FG% (50.7%) EVER
-First team to allow <120 PPG since '90-'91

Just a strange sight from a team coached by Gregg Popovich...

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1615377113497964550?s=19

Worst team ever, in an 82 game season was the 72-73 Philadelphia 76ers, who went 9-73. We’ve already won more games than that and it’s not even All Star break yet. I don’t care about stats, since most of them are relevant only in their era. This is the You Cannot Defend Shooters era.

[TD 21]

It's actually 8th worst in history because the true measure is relative to league average, as opposed to just total since so many stats are so inflated now.

But yeah, I was harping on this months ago. Despite mostly having players with defensive reputations in prominent roles and the genius, who'd supposedly waive his magic wand (that coincidentally seemed to break or go missing when one of the GOAT players/cores aged out) and will a baseline of competency out of any group, they're even worse than the much maligned Rockets.

[cd98]

I think you have to look at it differently. Good defense = bad lottery pick; bad defense = good lottery pick. This is a necessary evil. If we get the number one pick, our defense will improve dramatically.

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Worst team ever, in an 82 game season was the 72-73 Philadelphia 76ers, who went 9-73. We’ve already won more games than that and it’s not even All Star break yet. I don’t care about stats, since most of them are relevant only in their era. This is the You Cannot Defend Shooters era.

There's certainly merit to that argument but the only constant we have to measure the teams over the years is in fact the statistics.

It should be noted also that even within this era, the Spurs are several points below/worse than the next closest team.

Additionally, to me this is about the reality of this still being a pop-coached team as the tweet underscores. A guy that historically demanded excellence on that end, that's allowed a multi-year slide into historical ignominy

[offset formation]

I think you have to look at it differently. Good defense = bad lottery pick; bad defense = good lottery pick. This is a necessary evil. If we get the number one pick, our defense will improve dramatically.

You sure about that? What about the last several years makes you think one player, even someone as long as Wembanyama, makes a significant difference? We are who our talent says we are, and that isn't a good defensive BB team.

[Mr. Body]

I discount the "WORST EVAH" moniker because this era it's practically impossible to actually and legally play defense in many sets. You get called for so much shit, contact that's created by the offense, contact that's not fouls... it's absurd. And I'm not sure why it's not more of an issue.

That said... the team SUCKS at covering shooters and most rotations and it's completely baffling why.

[Thomas82]

Too bad it didn't show up tonight when we needed it most.

[SPURt]

That’s covid vaccine at a super spreader event level defense lol

[couchman]

I really wonder if Pop knows how to coach defense in this era.
He needs to quit whining about 3 pointers, accept reality, and figure out how to defend modern offenses

[DPG21920]

Figured this was worthy of its own thread.

I ran across a tweet today and although I knew we were bad -- I've recently been ranting about our poor defense over the last multiple years, and our current league worst defensive stats like +/-, and PPG -- until I saw the tweet, I had no idea we were currently the worst defensive team in NBA history. And rank near the worst ALL-TIME in several other categories.

The Spurs have one of the worst defenses in NBA history...

-Worst Defensive Rating (119.9) EVER
-3rd-worst opponent 3P% (39.9%) EVER
-25th-worst opponent FG% (50.7%) EVER
-First team to allow <120 PPG since '90-'91

Just a strange sight from a team coached by Gregg Popovich...

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1615377113497964550?s=19

And we are still better than HOU who is in third year of their rebuild with 2 top 3 picks and better than CHA who is supposed to have their centerpiece in LaMelo lol

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And we are still better than HOU who is in third year of their rebuild with 2 top 3 picks and better than CHA who is supposed to have their centerpiece in LaMelo lol

Yes in the standings by 3 or so games. But to the point of this thread, our defensive rating currently makes this the worst team in NBA history. That's a record that will stay on the books -- until broken at least. Who finished 3rd or 4th in the 2023 season matters not other than who gets the golden ticket for Wembanyama.

[Sugus]

And we are still better than HOU who is in third year of their rebuild with 2 top 3 picks and better than CHA who is supposed to have their centerpiece in LaMelo lol

:cry :cry B-but muh worst future in the division!! Inescapable darkness!!! :cry :cry

[Sugus]

Yes in the standings by 3 or so games. But to the point of this thread, our defensive rating currently makes this the worst team in NBA history. That's a record that will stay on the books -- until broken at least. Who finished 3rd or 4th in the 2023 season matters not other than who gets the golden ticket for Wembanyama.

Records don't mean shit, and are meant to be broken. Especially so in this era of a dozen 40-a-game type players.

Who cares about defensive rating on a tanking season? Believe it or not, a triple-A prospect like Wembanyama can absolutely, significantly shape not only the defensive composition of the team, but its entire working. Can you really tell me that replacing Sochan (or sliding him to the 3, even better), and putting another 7 foot player, who just so happens to be so freakishly nimble and agile as to guard the perimeter with excellence as well, will not result in a complete overhaul of the Spurs' identity and play?

Let's freak out about defensive performance once the Spurs are no longer trying to actively tank, but still suck at it. As many have pointed out already, it's pretty likely that most, if not all, of the current roster will be gone by the time the Spurs are ready to compete again. Why worry about such non-consequential stats like these?

----------

Besides that, I absolutely wouldn't put the difference between the Rockettes and the Spurs as "only 2-3 wins in the standings". Have you watched them at all? It's no wonder that, as talent-deprived and actively-tanking as we are, the Spurs beat them convincingly each time they faced (that I got to watch at least). There's a big gap between both teams in multiple areas, including offensive and defensive sets, ball distribution, player discipline, teamwork, good and healthy player development, team identity, and of course coaching itself, which impacts development significantly.

It's why I was never on board with a Rockettes-level tank job. Once the wheels come off completely, it ain't so easy to get them back on, at all... You gotta fix the entire car first, from the ground up. Spurs are, relatively, much closer to "getting back on track", despite having had no access to top lottery picks yet.

[John B]

Spurs traded their best defenders DJ and Derrick to rebuild. Plus I have been very critical of Poeltl as overrated and lacks the consistency. I thought he’d be much better with a bigger defender like Sochan at PF. But basically, Poeltl’s on-man defense leaves much to be desired. He seems to cower against dominant bigs. Still I think this season we cannot really read too much as Spurs being last in defensive rating. They are rebuilding, DNP’s and playing young rookies. I will not read too much of it. I think they will be better than average simply because it’s Pop’s team, and that’s where he hangs his hat on - defense. I think we have young athletic team who should be able to defend better. Tre is actually a good point-of-attack defender, likewise Vassell, Sochan. Keldon is moving well. I know JRich could be gone, but Stanley Johnson could be a good defender off the bench who can theoritically defend 1-5. Collins is always fighting for position. Spurs might need a bigger guard next draft and could very possibly be one of the Thompson Twins. Let’s see.

[wildbill2u]

I watch Sochan a lot on defense. Seems like he is playing roving zone a lot instead of staying with his man. As a result he often gets caught out of position near the lane with his man open for a corner 3. (Probably worked for him more in college)
My questions are:
1. Is this a tactic approved and put in place by the coaches because they think he is all league on defense?
2. Rookie mistake in perception of how good NBA shooters are and can be corrected?

I hope someone has been watching as well and can confirm or correct my analysis.

[cd98]

You sure about that? What about the last several years makes you think one player, even someone as long as Wembanyama, makes a significant difference? We are who our talent says we are, and that isn't a good defensive BB team.

One player can make a great impact on defense. Wembanyama and Poetl in the middle would be a crazy shot blocking combination and both are mobile. Plus the other positions are not manned with bad defenders. Sochen's best skill is defense. Vassel was drafted mostly because of his great defensive instincts and three point shooting. Getting defense and shooting at the 4 with that kind of size would make this a very good defense.

[KingKev]

One player can make a great impact on defense. Wembanyama and Poetl in the middle would be a crazy shot blocking combination and both are mobile. Plus the other positions are not manned with bad defenders. Sochen's best skill is defense. Vassel was drafted mostly because of his great defensive instincts and three point shooting. Getting defense and shooting at the 4 with that kind of size would make this a very good defense.

Disagree. This NBA is about wing defenders and Stanley Johnson or Romeo Langford might be our best. Rim protection means less in this new run and gun, 3ball era.

Vassell isn’t even an average wing/guard defender. Keldon was active last night but is still a horrible man to man defender.

[TD 21]

One player can make a great impact on defense. Wembanyama and Poetl in the middle would be a crazy shot blocking combination and both are mobile. Plus the other positions are not manned with bad defenders. Sochen's best skill is defense. Vassel was drafted mostly because of his great defensive instincts and three point shooting. Getting defense and shooting at the 4 with that kind of size would make this a very good defense.

I don't know about the last point, but props for not getting caught up in the big man bias movement and pretending wing/perimeter defenders could ever have the same impact as an elite anchor/rim protector, who are still and always will be the lone archetype able to singlehandedly prop up a defense.

Sure, mobility is more important than ever, but it's not everything. Look no further than Antetokounmpo being unable to maintain the Bucks' perennially elite defense mostly sans Lopez last season and it returning the second the latter did.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

WGAF TBH.

Does it really matter? This team is aiming for a high draft pick. Should we really be upset that the defense sucks?

[MultiTroll]

^ :lol

It kinda looked like the Nets were tanking last night.

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WGAF TBH.

Does it really matter? This team is aiming for a high draft pick. Should we really be upset that the defense sucks?

Sigh...not sure why exactly I have to repeat myself here constantly regarding this issue.

IDGAF about losing or even being bad defensively THIS YEAR. I'm a proud member of team tank since last year.

My concern is that we've been heading into this downward spiral of being a piss poor defensive basketball team for most of the past decade, or at least the last 6-7 years.

One lucky ping ping ball bounce will not make our current talent suddenly better perimeter defenders. Understand, we are presently headed towards the WORST DEFENSIVE RATING SEASON IN NBA HISTORY. We may tick up a few spots from worst ever to still historically bad and win a bunch of games 130-128.

Make no mistake, Wembanyama if we're lucky enough to get him, will absolutely make us better overall but we'll still lose multiple games and maybe return to mediocrity again at best IF we can more often than not outscore our opponents. Because our roster is not winning games on the defensive side.

That should trouble you for *beyond* this year. And these are Pop-coached (defensive genius) teams, not some scrub newbie.

[Chinook]

The bad defense is in large part a product of players just being young, but I also think there are likely more legit bad defenders than there are decent ones, let alone good ones.

By position:


PG: Jones is basically the only consistent bright spot on defense. By RAPTOR, he's a top-20 player at his position, and on the defensive end, he's 13 on a list that includes many bigger guards and wings who moonlight at PG sometimes. The Spurs could improve at the position, but he would totally be able to fit as a cog in a great defense just as Parker fit into the Spurs of old despite his personal limitations.

SG: Vassell is sort of the same in that I think he'd play well with a strong defensive core, but he is more of a product of his surroundings than Jones, who's arguably the only thing keeping the Spurs from absolutely worst. I do worry about him picking up some bad habits, but he has good tools.
Langford is getting a ton of run, and while he's grading out well enough defensively, I don't see how he's a keeper. Maybe on a cheap contract coming off the bench? As a starter, I just think he leaves too much on the table.
Richardson like a few Spurs looks like he's defending well while grading out horribly. On the continuum with Jones and Vassell, Richardson would probably contribute with a strong defensive unit, but he's more in like "He can hold down a seventh man if necessary" category. I like Josh a lot and wouldn't mind him on the team long team if they are somehow able to make a quick pivot after the draft. But it's starting to be too many names who'd be great surrounded by a core and not enough of that core itself.
Branham. Bad as advertised. I think he grades out as literally the worst defender in the league. Yikes. Hopefully the kid can clean that shit up.

SF: Keldon playing SF has been an unmitigated disaster. He's having his worst year, and he's much worse than even the average Spur on that end. I think you can make a good argument that losing the weight has helped his offense, but the insistence that Johnson's ineffectiveness came down to not playing his "natural position" is currently unsupported. He's seen a decline in net-impact, which is insane considering his improved scoring.
McDermott is only not the worst-defending Spur in terms of RAPTOR because Branham exists. He and Johnson trade poor statistical rankings. His is easily the Spurs' weakest position.

PF: Sochan is an ineffective defender who is trying way too hard to be one of those "mind games" guys who honestly went the way of the dinosaurs like 10 years ago. He obviously has potential, but I'm not sure players usually rise to become elite defenders after starting out as bad defenders. This contrasts with someone like Tari Eason who's actually already a good defender.
Stan is grading out to be a bad defender, but he's also the 10th man and contributing a lot on offense to where he's one of the most positive players on the team. It'd be unacceptable long term, but he's not the team's problem right now.
KBD: He's another entry in the "good piece on already great defensive team but not a foundational player to such a defense" ledger. For a team defending as badly as it does, Keita's almost-neutral rating actually suggests he's a positive contributor. But he's a really streaky offensive player who nets out as pretty bad on that end despite the flashes, so the team is probably not missing his minutes.
Roby I feel didn't get much of a chance this season, though he's literally never been more than a below-average defender despite having a profile of someone who'd be good on that end.

C: Poeltl is good, but he's always lacked the top gear to be a truly elite defender. He's pretty mobile for his position and protects the rim smartly. His man defense has always been meh, and his boxing out has been spotty against any decent center. He's not hurting the Spurs, but I do think he has to play better.
I really don't like Collins. He's a goon who tries to injure people. Like Sochan, he seems to have an antiquated idea of what good defense looks like and isn't even effective at that style anyway. Every once in a while, I'll look up to see him have an incredible statline. So maybe he has good trade value somewhere. I'd explore than if I were the Spurs. He has some potential as a former 10th-overall pick and is mostly healthy now. But I can't really root for him.
Bassey's been okay. He's young and dumb. but he's alethic and seems to take some pride in blocking shots. I wouldn't mind seeing him.
Dieng is done.

It's easy to say that the bad defense doesn't matter because the team is tanking anyway. But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end. The level of bad defense we're currently seeing is unacceptable to my mind. While I think it's possible to learn to play a defensive role after not being a good defender, I don't think one can take a club full of bad defenders and get anything positive out of it on that end. They're going to have to strongly limit the number of bad players in their rotation, and right now they're way, way above critical mass.

I'd also question if the defensive concepts Pop and his staff are teaching are really ideal for the modern NBA. I haven't looked too much into what schemes the Spurs are running and what principles they're employing on that side of the floor. But it's weird that even with so much turnover, the Spurs still seem to allow so many wide-open threes. It's possible that they do that way more by design than some may assume. I could see an old scheme allowing those shots if it's from a time when three-point shooting percentages where much lower and hard closeouts were way more effective in disrupting opposing shooters. Even if there is a schematic compromise that the Spurs are unwisely accepting, the personnel is the main culprit for the current nadir, in my eyes.

[JPB]

And I thought my posts were long...

Joking Chinook, good stuff.

[KingKev]

Chinkook with the heat. Very sobering analysis.

[dbestpro]

I would love to see a really bad team play old-school defense. I do not care if the refs call 60 fouls during a game. Eventually, they will stop calling the silly stuff, and the team will get to play in a way others cannot. It could make the game entertaining again.

[TD 21]

It's easy to say that the bad defense doesn't matter because the team is tanking anyway. But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end. The level of bad defense we're currently seeing is unacceptable to my mind. While I think it's possible to learn to play a defensive role after not being a good defender, I don't think one can take a club full of bad defenders and get anything positive out of it on that end. They're going to have to strongly limit the number of bad players in their rotation, and right now they're way, way above critical mass.

My concern is, when (if?) they continue to miss out on the elite prospects, they continue to prioritize players with defensive/"connector" type reputations, who lack freakish physical tools, thinking that between their supposed basketball IQ and hustle and the ability to "coach 'em up", they can build a strong defensive foundation to make up for their lack of talent.

[Ariel]

My concern is, when (if?) they continue to miss out on the elite prospects, they continue to prioritize players with defensive/"connector" type reputations, who lack freakish physical tools, thinking that between their supposed basketball IQ and hustle and the ability to "coach 'em up", they can build a strong defensive foundation to make up for their lack of talent.
We didn't skip any such player, if we want them to be "at hand" then we have to pick higher. Hopefully this is the year.

[J_Paco]

My only issue is with calling Sochan a "bad" defender. He's routinely asked to defend the other team's best offensive player likely with only a glaring idea of said player's tendencies/moves.

While often times creating a mismatch that the opposing team can exploit. Which is usually against Keldon, Devin and sometimes Tre.

He clearly isn't LeBron, who is, but we've seen other players start off as "poor" defenders yet with time & experience they become good or great.

I'm a lot more concerned with Devin's lack of defensive impact through three years and Keldon being in "no man's land" defensively as his career progresses. Not big enough to defend PF's and yet lack the lateral quickness to guard on the perimeter.

[offset formation]

This part sums up the point I'm making:

"But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end."

Great post, Chinook.

[KingKev]

This part sums up the point I'm making:

"But it's very possible the team is going to have excise a fair bit of the roster, including multiple young players who had potential, if they're going to figure it out on that end."

Great post, Chinook.

I think Keldon is the next to be sold high in the next 12-18months. Get Vassell on a similar deal and rinse and repeat.

The good news is that even with a top 5 lottery addition looming we will still likely be a bottom feeding team and should have a few opportunities to build a true high ceiling young core.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

To Keldon is the next to be sold high in the next 12-18months. Get Vassell on a similar deal and rinse and repeat.

The good news is that even with a top 5 lottery addition looming we will still likely be a bottom feeding team and should have a few opportunities to build a true high ceiling young core.

I'm guessing the Spurs FO might see if they land a whale in this next draft in order to determine what decent complimentary pieces to start handing onto (if any). Get Wemby and you build around him. Get another ancillary piece, and you continue to maximize your return on investment and shed your most valuable young assets as you've said.

At least the Spurs wised up and aren't attempting to win with non-winners anymore. Some wasted years with having Aldridge and/or Demar as the centerpiece.

[TD 21]

We didn't skip any such player, if we want them to be "at hand" then we have to pick higher. Hopefully this is the year.

I'm not suggesting they'd pass up no brainer top prospects for preference, I'm saying everything beneath that.

For instance, my sense is they'll have more interest in the Thompson twins than Miller, Smith Jr. and Whitmore, if they pick in the 3-5 range and Black than George if they pick beyond that, which might not necessarily be "wrong" obviously, but all things being relatively equal, they have to start going with the latter types.

[KingKev]

^ my biggest fear for this draft is we fall to 7 or 8 and proceed to reach for a culture guy over BPA

We probably have a similar chance of this happening as landing Wemby.

[The Truth #6]

Small market teams have a rough road. Culture guys are less likely to force their way out. Better players available have their own baggage. If we get a centerpiece and don’t have pieces to win they may want out, too.

A lot of BS in that Dejounte interview but at the same time there’s a lot of hard “truth” to accept as fans as far as the world of the NBA. And then of course, the hard truth of what the game has slowly devolved into by the management choices of the league management as far as how the game is played and promoted.

All this to say, Spurs fans were so lucky for so long.

Just venting…

[TimDunkem]

Good.

[exstatic]

^ my biggest fear for this draft is we fall to 7 or 8 and proceed to reach for a culture guy over BPA

We probably have a similar chance of this happening as landing Wemby.

Actually, higher. 18.9% as opposed to 12.5% for Wemby. OTOH, our odds for 6,7,8 46.6% are lower than Houston’s odds for #5, 47.9%.

[Ariel]

As it stands right now, we have:
1 chance in 8 of landing Wemby
1 chance in 4 of landing Wemby OR Scoot (slightly less)
(about) equal chances of making the top 4 and not.

[offset formation]

As it stands right now, we have:
1 chance in 8 of landing Wemby
1 chance in 4 of landing Wemby OR Scoot (slightly less)
(about) equal chances of making the top 4 and not.

This sums up where our chances well. Roughly 50/50 we get one of the top 4. And right now, there are 2 that stand above the others, and 1 that clearly stands out. So even picking third or fourth, while a very high pick for PATFO, still might not be franchise changing. That means odds are roughly equal that we only marginally improve next year as opposed to taking a much larger leap with Wembanyama. So much rides on us getting him.

[KingKev]

This sums up where our chances well. Roughly 50/50 we get one of the top 4. And right now, there are 2 that stand above the others, and 1 that clearly stands out. So even picking third or fourth, while a very high pick for PATFO, still might not be franchise changing. That means odds are roughly equal that we only marginally improve next year as opposed to taking a much larger leap with Wembanyama. So much rides on us getting him.

Even with Wemby the tank should ride. Sell high on Keldon. Limit Wemby’s minutes till he gets used to the NBA and we understand what we have in him. Find him a wingman in the 2024 lottery.

Wemby will take this team from a 25 win team to 30-35. I want 2-3yrs in the top 5.

[offset formation]

Even with Wemby the tank should ride. Sell high on Keldon. Limit Wemby’s minutes till he gets used to the NBA and we understand what we have in him. Find him a wingman in the 2024 lottery.

Wemby will take this team from a 25 win team to 30-35. I want 2-3yrs in the top 5.

No argument from me.

[Mr. Body]

I'm pretty convinced the Spurs never practiced defense at all. Not during the off-season, not during the preseason, not during the season. They don't have guys back in case of fast breaks. They don't cover open shooters. It's high school stuff and they're awful.

[offset formation]

I'm pretty convinced the Spurs never practiced defense at all. Not during the off-season, not during the preseason, not during the season. They don't have guys back in case of fast breaks. They don't cover open shooters. It's high school stuff and they're awful.

Spurs about to give up ~120 pts through 3 quarters. Last I researched it, our defensive rating (points per 100 possessions) was 119.9.

We're just solidifying our worst defensive rating in NBA history. Hell, at least we can be spoken about again in the record books for something.

My God if I told this board a pop-coached team would be headed towards this record, and that pop would be smiling and laughing every game, you'd all call me a liar.

[JuneJive]

What's the point here? The Spurs are, finally, tanking.

Now that's no good because of how porous their defense is?

[offset formation]

What's the point here? The Spurs are, finally, tanking.

Now that's no good because of how porous their defense is?

Jesus H. and Mary. The point?

Read my post #26 above.

[JuneJive]

I get your concern, but to me it doesn't seem problematic.

You tank, you get better players and from there the improvement is incremental.

And you have to factor in the impact of one good defensive player ( let's say Sochan ) on a subpar defensive team vs his impact on a good def. team.

Right now he's not impacting the game as much as he could if he were surrounded by a better def. cast.

[KingKev]

I get your concern, but to me it doesn't seem problematic.

You tank, you get better players and from there the improvement is incremental.

And you have to factor in the impact of one good defensive player ( let's say Sochan ) on a subpar defensive team vs his impact on a good def. team.

Right now he's not impacting the game as much as he could if he were surrounded by a better def. cast.

Yeah but this becomes abit of a circular reference. Can only make the argument player a, b, c would be better defensively on a better defensive team.

[CGD]

And I thought my posts were long...

Joking Chinook, good stuff.

Good analysis, and a reminder to me of how many of these guys won’t be on the next really good Spurs team. Maybe Devin and Jeremy only? The name of the game with the others is asset preservation and conversion.

Pop’s quote from earlier this year stuck with me: that the goal of this year is to teach and make sure these young guys have a long careers (read: not necessarily in SA). Seeing Eubanks last night reminded me of that.

[offset formation]

Good analysis, and a reminder to me of how many of these guys won’t be on the next really good Spurs team. Maybe Devin and Jeremy only? The name of the game with the others is asset preservation and conversion.

Pop’s quote from earlier this year stuck with me: that the goal of this year is to teach and make sure these young guys have a long careers (read: not necessarily in SA). Seeing Eubanks last night reminded me of that.

Lyles was studly last night for Sacramento vs Memphis.

[KingKev]

Good analysis, and a reminder to me of how many of these guys won’t be on the next really good Spurs team. Maybe Devin and Jeremy only? The name of the game with the others is asset preservation and conversion.

Pop’s quote from earlier this year stuck with me: that the goal of this year is to teach and make sure these young guys have a long careers (read: not necessarily in SA). Seeing Eubanks last night reminded me of that.

So true. The patience, opportunity and development PATFO offer is unprecedented.

Till we have a few building blocks need to keep harvesting those developmental gains.

[Mr. Body]

What's the point here? The Spurs are, finally, tanking.

Now that's no good because of how porous their defense is?

A horrid defense isn't something that is easily corrected. It's a sign of laziness, of disinterest, of many other things, none of them good. You'd rather a scrappy, tough team that is overpowered by talent than a team that has no idea what coverage is. Bad habits instilled.

I'm still a bit baffled at how awful it is. Maybe some neophyte coach or a run-and-gun Doug Moe thing. Supposedly Langford, Poeltl, Jones, and Sochan are at least decent defenders, but it doesn't show. Keldon is a terrible defender and that's not enough to be this bad. McDermott's not even the problem.

[Mr. Body]

My guess is Pop is focused entirely on offensive development of the young players, so he doesn't wreck them whenever they defend poorly and make plentiful mistakes on D. There's only so much confidence to go around.

Or else he's mental and cannot do that side of the court anymore.

The one guy I do think has improved is Branham. He was awful early in the season, lost and struggling. He's not terrible at this point.

[KingKev]

This is our best defensive lineup:

Jak
Sochan
Langford
Vassell or JRich
Tre

How long can we argue that each of these guys would be better defenders with better defenders around them? Something has to give.

[Mr. Body]

This is our best defensive lineup:

Jak
Sochan
Langford
Vassell or JRich
Tre

How long can we argue that each of these guys would be better defenders with better defenders around them? Something has to give.

Supposedly they're a good defensive lineup, but they get scorched.

[JeffDuncan]

This is our best defensive lineup:

Jak
Sochan
Langford
Vassell or JRich
Tre

How long can we argue that each of these guys would be better defenders with better defenders around them? Something has to give.


Sochan - rookie. It matters.

Langford - new to the team. It matters.

The Spurs have a lot of rookies and new players. It matters.

Memphis has a highly rated defense. Look at their roster.

Adams - only his 2nd year with the Grizz, but he’s a nine-year vet.

JJJ - in his fifth year, all with Mem.

Bane - third year with Mem.

Brooks - not rated a good defender, but he’s in his sixth season with Mem. At least he should be very familiar with the team.

Morant - fourth year with Mem.

Tyus Jones - in his eighth year and fourth with Mem.

Anyway, the point is, NBA experience does matter, especially experience with the same teammates.

[Chinook]

I get your concern, but to me it doesn't seem problematic.

You tank, you get better players and from there the improvement is incremental.

And you have to factor in the impact of one good defensive player ( let's say Sochan ) on a subpar defensive team vs his impact on a good def. team.

Right now he's not impacting the game as much as he could if he were surrounded by a better def. cast.

As I mentioned, there are a number of guys on the Spurs who'd look good on a good defensive team. But right now, there are too many of those guys and too few of the guys to actually make the team a good defensive team. A guy like Sochan can't just be a weather vane defensively. He's not performing as a good defender on a bad team, ala Tari Eason. He's contributing to the team being bad defensively. The sample size is still too small to get a firm initial read on him, but that initial read is likely going to be way more representative of his future impact than folks believe. As I said, true impact defenders tend to come into league and show that impact. That doesn't mean they don't improve, but they don't usually go from ineffective to dominant. I'm not saying to give up on Sochan in that regard, but it's nothing to completely ignore either.

Jones and Langford are examples of guys who are individually performing well defensively despite the rest of the team being a dumpster fire. It's one think to defend them against talk like, "If they're so good, why is the team horrible?" But guys like Johnson and McDermott are fundamentally hopeless. There are some swing players like Vassell, KBD and even Sochan to some extent, where you aren't writing them off since they are above average for the team but still not performing well leaguewide. Like Sochan is getting put on players of all sizes, but on a whole the average player he's facing is shooting at an above-average level when he's on them. That's not all his fault -- the only rotation player who's actually has above-average success this year is Zach Collins -- but if guys are going to shoot better against him, then he's switchability is not really contributing to any success. It could be useful if better defenders were around him, but then the Spurs are going to have to find better defenders who also are good enough offensive players to build around (since their current best scorers are likely going to be traded due to be just that horrible on D). Sochan is supposed to be a defensive specialist that allows the team to not have to find unicorns. He can't be the guy who needs specialists to function.

[offset formation]

Sochan - rookie. It matters.

Langford - new to the team. It matters.

The Spurs have a lot of rookies and new players. It matters.

Memphis has a highly rated defense. Look at their roster.

Adams - only his 2nd year with the Grizz, but he’s a nine-year vet.

JJJ - in his fifth year, all with Mem.

Bane - third year with Mem.

Brooks - not rated a good defender, but he’s in his sixth season with Mem. At least he should be very familiar with the team.

Morant - fourth year with Mem.

Tyus Jones - in his eighth year and fourth with Mem.

Anyway, the point is, NBA experience does matter, especially experience with the same teammates.

Good points, but we were trending downward for quite awhile before this when we had DWhite, DJ, etc.

It's deeper than a young and inexperienced team.

And ppl used to point at LMA as the weak link as he aged and got slower but now we have Poeltl who is supposedly a defensive stud (while we head towards NBA ignominy), and so ppl point to the wing defenders. But Josh Richardson, Vassell, Langford, and Tre are at least average defenders. Johnson not so much.

Quite frankly I'm not sure where the blame rests but something is amiss. Maybe pop has lost some of the spark to get on players or spent as much time in film sessions with them. Or maybe the players we've got just aren't good defensively when playing our system.

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop stays breaking records

[KingKev]

Quite frankly I'm not sure where the blame rests but something is amiss. Maybe pop has lost some of the spark to get on players or spent as much time in film sessions with them. Or maybe the players we've got just aren't good defensively when playing our system.

My thoughts exactly. I’m not smart enough to have a strong view but something is off here and it isn’t simply that we are tanking. I will say mostly having role players be your top 5-7 guys exacerbates this.

[JPB]

A horrid defense isn't something that is easily corrected. It's a sign of laziness, of disinterest, of many other things, none of them good. You'd rather a scrappy, tough team that is overpowered by talent than a team that has no idea what coverage is. Bad habits instilled.

I'm still a bit baffled at how awful it is. Maybe some neophyte coach or a run-and-gun Doug Moe thing. Supposedly Langford, Poeltl, Jones, and Sochan are at least decent defenders, but it doesn't show. Keldon is a terrible defender and that's not enough to be this bad. McDermott's not even the problem.

I honestly do'nt believe we should see or put too much in that tanking season... The tank distorts everything for the players individually and the team. Not to mention Pop seems indeed to focus on other things.

Players know the club is tanking and won't maybe (even unconsciously) leave it all on the floor every night. And it's easier and more punishing to let it go on defense than on offense where you still want your stats and showcase your skills to the NBA or your family and buddies.

[offset formation]

I honestly do'nt believe we should see or put too much in that tanking season... The tank distorts everything for the players individually and the team. Not to mention Pop seems indeed to focus on other things.

Players know the club is tanking and won't maybe (even unconsciously) leave it all on the floor every night. And it's easier and more punishing to let it go on defense than on offense where you still want your stats and showcase your skills to the NBA or your family and buddies.

We're worse than the Rockets (and Hornets and pistons who are all also tanking too), man. Let that sink in. In fact we're worse than every other NBA team in NBA history presently. Those teams are also full of young kids and in the case of Houston, full of some of the most selfish iso players I've seen. We have Pop. They have Silas. We're worse than them...this shouldn't be written off as, oh we're tanking...

[JuneJive]

Good luck finding the fine line between being worrisome-in-the-long-run on defense and staying competitive yet losing games.

I think the numbers from this season don't paint the real picture.

It's like when you are combining eye-test and advanced stats to evaluate a player, the same goes here, but you have to take into consideration the big picture as a part of that eye-test.
Big picture being the process of tanking and all that goes with it behind the scenes.

[Chinook]

Good luck finding the fine line between being worrisome-in-the-long-run on defense and staying competitive yet losing games.

I think the numbers from this season don't paint the real picture.

It's like when you are combining eye-test and advanced stats to evaluate a player, the same goes here, but you have to take into consideration the big picture as a part of that eye-test.
Big picture being the process of tanking and all that goes with it behind the scenes.

The Spurs are bad. They aren't "trying to be bad". It's true that the front office likely wants the team to lose, but they're losing because the players aren't good, and if the players aren't good, they aren't good. The front office changing their minds isn't going to all of the sudden mean those players who aren't good will start playing better again. I haven't seen anyone besides maybe Gambit suggest the Spurs will never be good again because they suck this year, but absolutely you can look at their play and see it's a reflection of the players. That's even more true given how horrible they have been for years. Johnson sucks on D this year, and he sucked basically as bad last year and every other year. He's not playing down to the moment. Dude's giving his all out there. His all is just woefully inadequate.

Most of the Spurs are playing for their next contracts if not their careers. They aren't looking at this tanking team and thinking "Meh, I'll get a better gig next year". Stan Johnson was out of the league. KBD, Roby and Langford are on the edge. Josh Richardson is a journeyman trying to find a home. Tre and Devin have big negotiating windows opening up. Jakob's trying to lock down generational health. Colllins is trying to show he belongs. Pretty much every player has a reason to go out there and try their hardest every night, and the sum total of that is a historically bad defense and one of the worst records in 50 seasons. Some of the guys like Tre and Romeo can at least say they've done their parts, but most can't.

The Spurs are going to have to get rid of basically everyone on the roster in order to fix their issue. That's not the worst thing in the world given how many future picks and cap space the team has. They'll have ample opportunity to figure something out. But the front office is 100-percent using this year to evaluate the roster. They are chucking up the record to tanking, but they were definitely expecting guys to be stepping it up on either or both ends, and the guys who aren't doing that are going to be at a disadvantage going forward. That Sochan is the third-worst rookie in the whole league in terms of DFG differential matters. He's 21 out of 27 rookies (min 252 minutes) in terms of defensive RAPTOR. He's 31/47 draftees in terms of BPM (which isn't separated on that table), and 34 in terms of WS/48. A lot of rookies on tanking teams are not playing nearly as badly as he is. No, he's not hopeless, but it matters.

[wildbill2u]

"That Sochan is the third-worst rookie in the whole league in terms of DFG differential matters. He's 21 out of 27 rookies (min 252 minutes) in terms of defensive RAPTOR. He's 31/47 draftees in terms of BPM (which isn't separated on that table), and 34 in terms of WS/48. A lot of rookies on tanking teams are not playing nearly as badly as he is. No, he's not hopeless, but it matters."

Finally someone with the statistical goods that back up what my eyes have been telling me. Sochan isn't the defensive whiz he was/is cracked up to be. Thanks Chinook for the effort to find these stats. I wouldn't have even known where to look.

[offset formation]

It's because he's mobile and man's up his guy with a squared chest more often than not. It's not his athleticism. It's being out of position too often it appears to me.

[ambchang]

Watching a few games, it seems like the biggest issue is that the Spurs does not have a defensive scheme and they continuously miscommunicate. It is a highly odd thing to say about the Spurs but the defenders are pretty much always out of position, and they can somehow leave three point shooters wide open, fail to cover passing lanes AND fail to block off cuts all in one possession. They often scramble and lead to multiple open shooters and cutters as multiple defenders will just chase the ball. I have no idea why they are doing it. It's like high school basketball.

[TDMVPDPOY]

after the claw fiasco, even with a losing record...spurs still hold the all time winning %? or has boston taken it back

[horseshue]

Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. :lol In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.

[XDT76]

Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. :lol In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.

With 3 of the better defenders out, it would be more surprising if it did not happen.

[offset formation]

Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. :lol In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.

Damn good prediction on the point total. just a bucket shy of the guess

[The Truth #6]

People here are questioning if Jeremy or Devin or Keldon will ever be good defenders. On one hand, it feels like an overreaction, but our defense is so bad you have to put the finger somewhere. I get it. But it seems like Yak has escaped the same criticism. So either our supposed good defenders are actually not that good or maybe it’s something outside the individual players. It’s a conundrum.

[offset formation]

Another 140+ pts game for opposing side incoming. :lol In theese days it seems like everybody is having a field day against spurs.

I remember a stretch of our era of the big 3 when giving up a single 30 point quarter in a game was quite rare. Now our boys are about to break an NBA record of futility where most quarters are seemingly well into the 30s, if not the 40s.

And the kicker is that both were pop-coached. Pop of then would have had a melt down.

Scoring is obviously up universally around the league with the rules changes and the increased efficiency of the 3pt shot, but we ate singularly historically bad. It is quite the mystery.

[poopbox]

"That Sochan is the third-worst rookie in the whole league in terms of DFG differential matters. He's 21 out of 27 rookies (min 252 minutes) in terms of defensive RAPTOR. He's 31/47 draftees in terms of BPM (which isn't separated on that table), and 34 in terms of WS/48. A lot of rookies on tanking teams are not playing nearly as badly as he is. No, he's not hopeless, but it matters."

Finally someone with the statistical goods that back up what my eyes have been telling me. Sochan isn't the defensive whiz he was/is cracked up to be. Thanks Chinook for the effort to find these stats. I wouldn't have even known where to look.

Somebody post some random stats and your are like "finally the truth about Sochan defense is revealed" :lol

Sochan is fine defensively, and as the roster gets better he will become a lot better defensively. If I had to list Sochan's top defensive problems

1. He plays with bigs who are awful at 1 on 1 defense

2. He plays with guards who can't stay in front of anyone so he is always having someone coming at him full speed

3. He plays with forwards who do the same as guards, offer no resistance so any player coming at sochan is coming down hill.

That is what all these advanced metrics don't tell you. They don't tell you that 2 seconds before the guard scored on sochan he just came off a screen and got a full head of steam toward the basket. I am very positive if you took these rookies who rank higher than him in whatever metric and you sandwiched them between Keldon Johnson and Zach Collins their defensive numbers would plummet as well.

And the primary problem with the spurs defense is that Gregg Poppovich has never and will never figure out a good defensive scheme that doesn't involve a top tier perimeter defender and a top tier post defender. Pop and/or the coaching staff, also have no clue how to defend the 3 point line. The defensive is going to be generally bad until he is gone and we just have a better basketball mind on the sidelines.