Factors that led to Spurs being irrelevant?

[JakeCuenca]

If you’d have to put a number on it, who were the main culprits? imo.

1. Uncle Dennis - 20%
2. PATFO not babying superstars like all other superstars - 5%
3. The Hiring of Brian’s Wright - 40%
4. The Draft Picks - 30%
5. Coaching - 5%

[offset formation]

1. The retirement of The Big 3 -- 85%
2. neph and his family entourage -- 15%

[KingKev]

1. Kawhi - 50%
2. PATFO stubborness/ineptness - 50%

Another 5 yrs from now if we are still striving for the play-in or a first round KO, ST will still be blaming Uncle Denis.

[spurraider21]

if "uncle dennis" just means "whatever happened with the kawhi situation" that is #1 and there isn't a close second

the other part would be wasting draft picks

[Mr. Body]

100% - Steve Kerr ordering Zaza Pachulia to stick his fat foot under an already gimpy Kawhi Leonard when they were down 20+ in game one of their series.

[GAustex]

100% - Steve Kerr ordering Zaza Pachulia to stick his fat foot under an already gimpy Kawhi Leonard when they were down 20+ in game one of their series.
What a sickening turning point in franchise direction

[JPB]

Wright isn't responsible for what is happening now. He's been hired for what is happening now.

[JakeCuenca]

Meh the Spurs has 3-4 years to build a team with a bright future. No one is saying they should be great now, but the draft picks, the trades have been so abysmal that I can’t even see this team competing 5 years from now.

[MultiTroll]

1. The retirement of The Big 3 -- 85%
2016-17 Spurs 61-21.
Leading the Golden Phaggots by 25 and about to go up 1-0 in the WCF.
Kawhi Leonard MVP.

Duncan was retired. Manu was limited to 15-18 mpg and Porker also limited, esp in the playoffs R2.

[JPB]

2016-17 Spurs 61-21.
Leading the Golden Phaggots by 25 and about to go up 1-0 in the WCF.
Kawhi Leonard MVP.

Duncan was retired. Manu was limited to 15-18 mpg and Porker also limited, esp in the playoffs R2.

They don't lose that game after Nephew's injury with prime Big 3. And that was one game anyway.

[MultiTroll]

They don't lose that game after Nephew's injury with prime Big 3. And that was one game anyway.
So they'd be a Prime Big 4 with Kawhi?

What happened in 2004, 2006, (lets leave out abysmal 2008-11) 2013?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

25 years without a top 10 pick will drain any team of assets. At some point it catches up, usually wayyyy earlier than it did the Spurs.

Also the big 3 (essentially, Tony's Charlotte cameo notwithstanding) all retiring as Spurs only players, which is great in its own way but didn't provide a bridge to the following era.

[DeRozan m8]

1. Kawhi - 50%
2. PATFO stubborness/ineptness - 50%

Another 5 yrs from now if we are still striving for the play-in or a first round KO, ST will still be blaming Uncle Denis.

Dennis wanted Kawhi out of SA and back home in the big market of LA

So unless SA could magically appear back in LA, then nephew was gone, nothing to do with PATFO, you absolute clown

[KingKev]

Dennis wanted Kawhi out of SA and back home in the big market of LA

So unless SA could magically appear back in LA, then nephew was gone, nothing to do with PATFO, you absolute clown

so 5 yrs later we are still irrelevant. How long are clowns like yourself going to use that as an excuse? That is the other 50%. Aussie tosser.

[Spursfanfromafar]

25 years without a top 10 pick will drain any team of assets. At some point it catches up, usually wayyyy earlier than it did the Spurs.

Also the big 3 (essentially, Tony's Charlotte cameo notwithstanding) all retiring as Spurs only players, which is great in its own way but didn't provide a bridge to the following era.

I think the Big 3 retiring as Spurs only players (TP Hornets' gig notwithstanding) was the reason why the Spurs' contention years were stretched out to two decades and change.

I think the Spurs missed the plot after Nephew left. They tried to compensate for him by getting Derozan and kept the role players when they should have done what they are doing now. Get more FRPs and tank and get more FRPs. But hindsight is always 20-20. The Derozan-Dejounte-Derrick-Rudy Gay-Patty-LMA Spurs at least gave us some good moments, if not contention. The Spurs' real and possibly only bad screw-up was last year when they drafted Joshua Primo over Sengun. Other than that, they have been hitting singles and doubles with the hand that they have been dealt with (sorry for the mixed metaphor).

If the Spurs luck out with Wemby.. it could mark a new beginning. Lets see.

[offset formation]

I think the Big 3 retiring as Spurs only players (TP Hornets' gig notwithstanding) was the reason why the Spurs' contention years were stretched out to two decades and change.

I think the Spurs missed the plot after Nephew left. They tried to compensate for him by getting Derozan and kept the role players when they should have done what they are doing now. Get more FRPs and tank and get more FRPs. But hindsight is always 20-20. The Derozan-Dejounte-Derrick-Rudy Gay-Patty-LMA Spurs at least gave us some good moments, if not contention. The Spurs' real and possibly only bad screw-up was last year when they drafted Joshua Primo over Sengun. Other than that, they have been hitting singles and doubles with the hand that they have been dealt with (sorry for the mixed metaphor).

If the Spurs luck out with Wemby.. it could mark a new beginning. Lets see.

Sengun is going to hurt watching for 15 years. And it's the curse of neph. The only reason we reached for Primo is because PATFO thought they had the next neph and were desperate to replace him and slot him where they thought he needed to play, like neph. So he was not only a reach but being played out of position, chasing the ghost of neph.

When they could and should have just taken the BPA.

At 20, Sengun is starting to put up some really nice numbers -- his assist stats already look like a top end center. He rebounds well and is starting to score at a efficient clip. He just started to start, too. He's being called their cog by Rocket insiders/fans. They know what they have.

[CGD]

- Nephew 80%
- delaying tear down thereafter 15%
- Dak Prescott’s interceptions 5%

[rascal]

Duncan retiring

[rascal]

Even the Romans didn't stay on top forever.

It was inevitable the Spurs dynasty would fall.

[MultiTroll]

It was obviously when a group of perverts within PATFO decided to disband these fine creatures:

https://news4sanantonio.com/resources/media/0eeced84-0ff6-44c6-8524-7a8af946bdaa-medium16x9_silverdancers_660_100226.jpg?1527030916 341

[LeBowen]

Noone could've predicted what was going to happen with nephew, but desperately trying to stay relevant with DDR and LMA was just delaying the inevitable. Easy to say in hindisght, but PATFO should've done a full rebuild in 2018.

Hopefully squid Silver realizes biggest prospect since Lebron shouldn't go to a trainwreck franchise like the Rockets, Pistons or Hornets. If not, then we're in for another year of blatant tanking.

[daslicer]

80 percent of this is on Kawhi/Uncle Dennis. 20 percent of it is on Pop for being obsessed with chasing the all-time wins record for coaching and hence the reason why the rebuild was delayed by 5 years.

[MultiTroll]

How bout the fat contract that was given to Pao Gasol.
Wonder if that stirred some chit up among some Spurs players including Nephew.

Real n!gger Dewayne Dedmon cut after he rightly told Patrick Beverly to shove it during Beverleys 100 illegal prance into DDs free throw shooting area.
:cry Classy Pop :cry quit playing DD after then and cut him.
One of Klaws best friend on team.

[james evans]

I will never understand investing damn near $100 million in Gasol and Mills. That was the downfall of this team. Shit made no fukin sense whatsoever, but people have their head up popovich's ass so deep, they will defend it.

[Jordan Jackson]

Duncan retiring

Only right answer. The man was carrying this franchise and masked a lot of the incompetent/dysfunctional aspects of it - which lots of winning often does. Greatest thing to ever happen to us as sports fans.

[JeffDuncan]

I will never understand investing damn near $100 million in Gasol and Mills. That was the downfall of this team. Shit made no fukin sense whatsoever, but people have their head up popovich's ass so deep, they will defend it.


Add to that, Marco Belinelli. Quincy Pondexter. Dante Cunningham. Drew Eubanks. The incomparable Bryn Forbes. All of the waste and dead weight the Spurs kept adding to the roster.

People fantasize that if Leonard had stayed - with his injury and load management - the Spurs would have been in title contention. That is foolish nonsense. There’s no chance. Not with the kind of roster construction the Spurs displayed, they would not. First-round exit, is where they would have been, every time.

Yeah, sure, Leonard supported by Beli, Mills and Forbes will win the title. What are people smoking?

It’s a pipe dream. The Spurs were not going to win a title with Leonard. It’s just as well he’s gone.

[wildbill2u]

When you have 3 great players winning championships over two decades then you have no serious openings via high draft choices and TBH no openings on the court for the most part to give deserving youngsters much playing time. DJM was complaining about that in his recent interview. It doesn't matter that his opinion was pretty stupid for a 29th pick with lots of problems in his skillsets like handling, shooting, etc. , it was a probably a popular perception around the league that no one was going to break into a prominent role while we still had the Big 3.

The Kwahi thing might have broken the logjam and given us some continuing excellence, but for whatever reason, he didn't want to play here anymore. We still don't have the definitive explanation for this as all the folks involved have their own stories about what happened. But there is no doubt in my mind that we could have continued to be one of the best teams in the league if he had stayed.
However, once Kwahi left there was no putting Humpty Dumpty together again, even with the addition of LMA and DDR. I think folks should give the FO and coaching staff E for Effort on those moves.

Years of excellence have consequences, however, and twenty years of low draft choices finally took their inevitable toll.

[RC_Drunkford]

1. Uncle Dennis 50%
2. DeRozan trade 25%
3. Marcus Morris and Demarre Carroll signings 15%
4. Gasol/Mills extensions 10%

[RC_Drunkford]

Add to that, Marco Belinelli. Quincy Pondexter. Dante Cunningham. Drew Eubanks. The incomparable Bryn Forbes. All of the waste and dead weight the Spurs kept adding to the roster.

People fantasize that if Leonard had stayed - with his injury and load management - the Spurs would have been in title contention. That is foolish nonsense. There’s no chance. Not with the kind of roster construction the Spurs displayed, they would not. First-round exit, is where they would have been, every time.

Yeah, sure, Leonard supported by Beli, Mills and Forbes will win the title. What are people smoking?

It’s a pipe dream. The Spurs were not going to win a title with Leonard. It’s just as well he’s gone.

that's not true. The Spurs were about to trade for DeRozan regardless, while keeping either Murray or White.

LA/Gay/Kawi/DeRozan/White could've gone toe to toe with the Dubs

[JeffDuncan]

that's not true. The Spurs were about to trade for DeRozan regardless, while keeping either Murray or White.

LA/Gay/Kawi/DeRozan/White could've gone toe to toe with the Dubs


Dream on.

[TDMVPDPOY]

How bout the fat contract that was given to Pao Gasol.
Wonder if that stirred some chit up among some Spurs players including Nephew.

Real n!gger Dewayne Dedmon cut after he rightly told Patrick Beverly to shove it during Beverleys 100 illegal prance into DDs free throw shooting area.
:cry Classy Pop :cry quit playing DD after then and cut him.
One of Klaws best friend on team.

loyalty contracts destroyed the spurs from rebuilding or being able to keep the bench players...

i think the year the spurms loss dedmon, simmons, lee, west was a waste...didnt even bother trying to retain someone...i guess thats when kawhi saw the drawing on the wall with big3 on its last legs, the players around him slowly being casts away...but then again kawhi was going to leave anyway with or without those players leaving is another discussion....

[Sugus]

:lol everyone quickly pointing fingers thinking about the question seriously. The true, and only, factor that led to the Spurs' current irrelevance is.... The NBA system itself.

Tell me which of the 30+ NBA teams have managed continued, unbroken, permanent relevance through the years - I'll wait. The fact is, no matter how high the highs (and there certainly have been dynasties and superteams for days throughout the NBA's 75 years), every single team that once dominated, has seen the "turn of the wheel" and, with it, the eventual drop to the bottom. Players age, the wheels fall off, talent drought, and the human factor of course - literally not a single team has managed to avoid it. Not the Celtics, nor the Lakers, nor the Spurs.

But of course, the Spurs should be singled out and excruciated for it, nevermind the 20 years of sustained excellence they've gifted to their arrogant fans. It's a "what have you done for me lately" kind of league, after all.

[John B]

The big 3 retirement was inevitable, and Spurs had heir apparent in Kawhi from 15th overall pick, then Uncle Dennis happened.

The big missis in the draft (Luka and Primo) imo were more Spurs trying to swing for a franchise player where Spurs were picking. It was a necessary risk for a small market team. It was the same risk that got them Kawhi, trading favorite GH for an unknown, but panned out, again until uncle Dennis happened.

In hindsight, Spurs should’ve tanked immediately after Kawhi, but did the “noble” way to showcase the Vets to best situations which was the biggest mistake to many. But it says big about the Spurs as a class act organization. I think that was the legacy that PATFO wants to leave. By the end of the day, that makes me a Spurs fan - despite where Spurs records now, doing what is right.

[Sugus]

The big 3 retirement was inevitable, and I thought Spurs had heir apparent in Kawhi, then Uncle Dennis came.

The big missis in the draft (Luka and Primo) were more trying to swing for a franchise player where Spurs were picking.

In hindsight, Spurs should’ve tanked immediately after but did the “noble” way to showcase the Vets to best situations which was also the biggest mistake. But in the long run it says big about the Spurs as a class act organization. I think that was the legacy that PATFO wants to leave. By the end of the day, that makes me a Spurs fan I guess.

Not that I disagree with your points, but they highlight just what's ridiculous about the hair-splitting in this thread. Should the Spurs have tanked sooner, or not traded for DDR/LMA? Maybe. We can have that discussion all day.

But the bottomline is, no matter when the Spurs should've had to tank.... They would've had to tank. They were gonna be irrelevant, eventually, anyways. That's the way the NBA cycle goes, and no team has escaped or will escape it forever. You always, always, end up tearing it up, building through the draft (or trades if you're LA/Miami), and starting over.

[KingKev]

I agree with Sugus that it was inevitable and it party of the cycle of even great franchises. Even the Kawhi sauga; trams lose stars via free agency all the time. At least we got something for him.

Regarding blowing it up sooner I don’t support the view that it is hindsight. Most knew in those early DDR/LMA days we needed to blow it up. It was a very common view from Spurs fans and media alike. I fully hold PATFO accountable for delaying the inevitable. Maybe we get lucky and win the VW sweepstakes and most will forget just how bad PATFO has been these last 5yrs or so.

[John B]

Not that I disagree with your points, but they highlight just what's ridiculous about the hair-splitting in this thread. Should the Spurs have tanked sooner, or not traded for DDR/LMA? Maybe. We can have that discussion all day.

But the bottomline is, no matter when the Spurs should've had to tank.... They would've had to tank. They were gonna be irrelevant, eventually, anyways. That's the way the NBA cycle goes, and no team has escaped or will escape it forever. You always, always, end up tearing it up, building through the draft (or trades if you're LA/Miami), and starting over.

I think “tanking” is not in Pop’s vocabulary, more like “rebuilding.” It’s frustrating but it’s what makes Spurs different from any other team, imo. Pop will always compete and will not deliberately throw games. He would have players in DNP during the championship years, which resulted to game losses, but kept them fresh for the playoffs which was the “ultimate goal.” Likewise, the ultimate goal is to rebuild core players, then take a “big swing” at a franchise player(s). I agree with trading DDR/LMA asap and it frustrates, but again PATFO always did right why I just leave to their better judgements. I always say, none of us here won 5 rings with a small market during Kobe/Shaq, LeBron/Banana Boat prime. So I stand by what the best organization would do.

[Slippy]

if "uncle dennis" just means "whatever happened with the kawhi situation" that is #1 and there isn't a close second

the other part would be wasting draft picks

This and number 3 pop overstaying the coaching role while being president of spurs... related to number 2.

[K...]

Number 1mistake on this board is saying spurs should tank after kawhi left. You 99/100 try derozan, LMA. We will be lucky to see talent like that for many years and you have to let players work it out. Derozan sucked but the spurs will draft 15players before reaching a derozan talent.

Look at the league now. Garbage. Prime LMA would be a top 5 player today.

[KingKev]

We barely had Prime LMA and certainly not in the DDR years. Didn’t help he showed up overweight and out of shape in the DDR era.

[JPB]

:lol everyone quickly pointing fingers thinking about the question seriously. The true, and only, factor that led to the Spurs' current irrelevance is.... The NBA system itself.

Tell me which of the 30+ NBA teams have managed continued, unbroken, permanent relevance through the years - I'll wait. The fact is, no matter how high the highs (and there certainly have been dynasties and superteams for days throughout the NBA's 75 years), every single team that once dominated, has seen the "turn of the wheel" and, with it, the eventual drop to the bottom. Players age, the wheels fall off, talent drought, and the human factor of course - literally not a single team has managed to avoid it. Not the Celtics, nor the Lakers, nor the Spurs.

But of course, the Spurs should be singled out and excruciated for it, nevermind the 20 years of sustained excellence they've gifted to their arrogant fans. It's a "what have you done for me lately" kind of league, after all.

/thread.

[JPB]

To be continuously relevant that litterally means you should continuously be able to replace a Duncan/Manu/TP big 3 with late 20s FRPs and late SRPs, which isn't gonna happen, Nephew was an exception.... And teams prefer riding the tank road when their stars are gone than navigating into mediocrity. Took just a bit more time for Spurs because that's hard when you've been so good so long to become bottom feeders.

[ambchang]

It’s comical how spurs fans knew exactly what the front office is wrong in ever move but can’t give any reasonable alternatives. Trading away DDR and LMA? For what? What was the market? They developed DJM, White, Johnson and poetl way beyond expectations but all the spurs fans kept talking about were Luka and primo. Vassell and sochan are looking at least reasonable at their draft spots.

Of course I want the spurs to be contending for a title now, but those are unreasonable expectations.

Start rebuild early? Spurs fans think that miraculously they will always be at spots to pick up doncic, morant, lamelo and Cade in the drafts, when reality is that even if the spurs started tanking a few years earlier they would’ve been picking in the low lottery anyways.

[spurraider21]

It’s comical how spurs fans knew exactly what the front office is wrong in ever move but can’t give any reasonable alternatives. Trading away DDR and LMA? For what? What was the market? They developed DJM, White, Johnson and poetl way beyond expectations but all the spurs fans kept talking about were Luka and primo. Vassell and sochan are looking at least reasonable at their draft spots.

Of course I want the spurs to be contending for a title now, but those are unreasonable expectations.

Start rebuild early? Spurs fans think that miraculously they will always be at spots to pick up doncic, morant, lamelo and Cade in the drafts, when reality is that even if the spurs started tanking a few years earlier they would’ve been picking in the low lottery anyways.
No you’re right the best thing to do with sit on LMA, unnecessarily guarantee his contract, wait wait wait until he had no value, then waive him

[ambchang]

No you’re right the best thing to do with sit on LMA, unnecessarily guarantee his contract, wait wait wait until he had no value, then waive him

Aldridge started going downhill in 19-20 and it was apparent then the spurs will not be close to contention with that core at all. He had a heart condition and that was it. Even then who were the spurs going to trade with? And for what? Nets for a first?

[KingKev]

Aldridge started going downhill in 19-20 and it was apparent then the spurs will not be close to contention with that core at all. He had a heart condition and that was it. Even then who were the spurs going to trade with? And for what? Nets for a first?

After summer 2019 it was very apparent it was time to break up that team. Had Marcus Morris honoured his word, DeMarre Carrol had something left and LMA showed up to training camp in shape that team could have been more competitive but 20 games into that season it was clear it was time to break it up and LMA still had value at that time. He had strong value on 2020 draft day. PATFO just dropped the ball.

[scott]

:lol everyone quickly pointing fingers thinking about the question seriously. The true, and only, factor that led to the Spurs' current irrelevance is.... The NBA system itself.

Tell me which of the 30+ NBA teams have managed continued, unbroken, permanent relevance through the years - I'll wait. The fact is, no matter how high the highs (and there certainly have been dynasties and superteams for days throughout the NBA's 75 years), every single team that once dominated, has seen the "turn of the wheel" and, with it, the eventual drop to the bottom. Players age, the wheels fall off, talent drought, and the human factor of course - literally not a single team has managed to avoid it. Not the Celtics, nor the Lakers, nor the Spurs.

But of course, the Spurs should be singled out and excruciated for it, nevermind the 20 years of sustained excellence they've gifted to their arrogant fans. It's a "what have you done for me lately" kind of league, after all.

This is a great point that so many take for granted. The Spurs 22-season playoff streak is not normal (hence why it is a record). The Spurs were so dominant during this stretch that they still have by far the highest winning % in NBA history, to the point where they would have to go on a 70-game losing streak that is matched by a 70-game winning streak by the Lakers or Celtics for either of those teams to tie our win %.

This is just the natural course of the league. How the Spurs respond to the pendulum swing is the real question.

[TD 21]

:lol everyone quickly pointing fingers thinking about the question seriously. The true, and only, factor that led to the Spurs' current irrelevance is.... The NBA system itself.

:lmao Scumbag intentionally screwing the Spurs and the league allowing him to do so is not "the NBA system itself". On the contrary,, I can't think of a single other example of it in league history.

Instead of the Davis like haul he should have been worth, he was worth barely pennies on the dollar due to his antics.

The perception is that the Spurs targeted a win now package because of the playoff streak, coaching record and to a lesser extent having reaching an understanding with Aldridge, but the reality is they couldn't get anything resembling a significant young asset nor draft capital likely to lead to it.

[KingKev]

:lmao Scumbag intentionally screwing the Spurs and the league allowing him to do so is not "the NBA system itself". On the contrary,, I can't think of a single other example of it in league history.

Instead of the Davis like haul he should have been worth, he was worth barely pennies on the dollar due to his antics.

The perception is that the Spurs targeted a win now package because of the playoff streak, coaching record and to a lesser extent having reaching an understanding with Aldridge, but the reality is they couldn't get anything resembling a significant young asset nor draft capital likely to lead to it.

You are such a cry baby. As much as I dislike how he handled himself and drove down his trade value, stars leave their respective teams via free agency for NOTHING often. We at-least got a shit sandwich back for Leonard…. It could have been better if stubborn PATFO didn’t try to fuck him over by sending him to Toronto. That backfired btw but your daddy will tell you all about it if you ever reconcile.

[TD 21]

You are such a cry baby. As much as I dislike how he handled himself and drove down his trade value, stars leave their respective teams via free agency for NOTHING often. We at-least got a shit sandwich back for Leonard…. It could have been better if stubborn PATFO didn’t try to fuck him over by sending him to Toronto. That backfired btw but your daddy will tell you all about it if you ever reconcile.

Says the guy who does nothing but cry about everything Spurs and take the other side in every discussion.

Free agency is part of the game. In most cases, the teams know early and trade them for commensurate return.

What "we" got (and gave someone else) is far worse than that and the idea that they tried to screw him by sending him to Siberia is nonsense.

It was clear the moment it happened he was a Durant/Curry injury away (and they were due) from a tainted championship.

[K...]

You are such a cry baby. As much as I dislike how he handled himself and drove down his trade value, stars leave their respective teams via free agency for NOTHING often. We at-least got a shit sandwich back for Leonard…. It could have been better if stubborn PATFO didn’t try to fuck him over by sending him to Toronto. That backfired btw but your daddy will tell you all about it if you ever reconcile.

How was the trade Toronto bad? Cold weather? Did the spurs have the responsibility to take the lakers shit package?

[XDT76]

It is always amazing to imagine the alternate universe, while forgetting that trade is executed by 2 teams and the other team is not our feeder club. We can point to PATFO making mistakes like not drafting Jokic or giving LMA/Gasol ridiculous high contract beyond necessary but criticizing them about not trading players away is always something fans does not have the full picture. How do we know they did not try?

[ambchang]

After summer 2019 it was very apparent it was time to break up that team. Had Marcus Morris honoured his word, DeMarre Carrol had something left and LMA showed up to training camp in shape that team could have been more competitive but 20 games into that season it was clear it was time to break it up and LMA still had value at that time. He had strong value on 2020 draft day. PATFO just dropped the ball.

Again, for who/what? There weren’t many offers for him at that point as all the teams were aiming to shoot threes (it was a little overboard during that time). The spurs would be trading him away for little value just for the sake of being bad.

[TDMVPDPOY]

how about the years patfo wasted 2-3 years of draft picks looking for that backup pg, when they couldve easily just sign some veteran pg....

how about finding the bowen replacement in the draft also...

[james evans]

It is always amazing to imagine the alternate universe, while forgetting that trade is executed by 2 teams and the other team is not our feeder club. We can point to PATFO making mistakes like not drafting Jokic or giving LMA/Gasol ridiculous high contract beyond necessary but criticizing them about not trading players away is always something fans does not have the full picture. How do we know they did not try?
Jokic wouldn't be doing all of that stuff with us. Popovich would have tried to turn him into Tim Duncan like he did Aldridge.