Elbow to the face - legal move?

[dougp]

I don't know if this has been brought up ... and the Spurs aren't ones to complain like Karl or VG but ... When did Dirk's Elbow to Bowen's face become a legal move? For a player like Tim to react and take a TF like that, it's a big deal and they blow it off like it's fuqin nothing? And pushing Tim out of bounds isn't a foul?

NBA really needs to take a look at refs sometimes ...

[spursupporter]

fire them all!

[TDMVPDPOY]

dIRKS been takin sleeper classes with sean "ninja" elliot without bowen knowing now he has another enemy....BANZAI

[FromWayDowntown]

I thought that the play that Tim took the technical on was actually a good no-call by the official.

Nowitzki got an elbow into Bruce, but it just grazed Bowen's chest. Bruce took the contact, waited a beat and then fell down. That, my friends, is a flop.

You could see the official (Marc Davis, I think) explain to Bruce and Tim during the technical free throw that he wasn't going to give him "that flop." He saw it and made the right decision to make no call.

Dirk does get away with using his elbows a lot, particularly when smaller defenders body up to him -- Dirk throws that elbow out there to create space (he did it to Parker last night on one possession) and seems to either get away with that or to draw a call on the defender. But the play with Bowen wasn't a foul.

[T Park]

I have to respectfully disagree FWD.

The elbow hit Bruce right in the chin, and he didnt wait to go down, he went right down.

Nowtizki doesn't even come close to getting called enough for when backing down using his off arm to clear out.

Drove me and the others absolutely mad last night that he was getting away with that.

[FromWayDowntown]

I have to respectfully disagree FWD.

The elbow hit Bruce right in the chin, and he didnt wait to go down, he went right down.

Nowtizki doesn't even come close to getting called enough for when backing down using his off arm to clear out.

Drove me and the others absolutely mad last night that he was getting away with that.

I'll give you the fact that it looked like a blatant elbow at full speed. But when TNT slowed it down, you could see Bruce absorb the contact (which didn't look significant to me) come to a halt and then fall backwards. It's the halt in the middle that made me think it was a flop and that the no-call was a good one.

But I agree that Dirk is allowed to do a lot of things that other players can't hope to get away with.

[ChumpDumper]

Swinging the elbows high is supposed to be a tech, no questions asked.

[boutons]

"it just grazed Bowen's chest ... That, my friends, is a flop."

WTF? I saw it last night on replay, and reviewed the slo-mo replay just now on my DVR. Dirk's left elbow hit Bruce's left chest and then hit Bruce's left cheek. Whether Bruce flopped, or not, is totally separate. Elbow to the cheek was extremely clear and a missed foul. The ref blew it, and Tim was right to complain.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/bamboozool2/999_temp/Picture020.jpg

[dougp]

didn't he get fined last year for doing the same thing to Bowen late in the season? Was like $15,000 or something like that I remember.

Also, boutons, resize the dang thing please!

[boutons]

you're welcome.

[Taco]

Dirk Elbow to Bowen Face = Tech on Duncan

[JamStone]

PERSPECTIVE:

Someone on this board quoted Manu Ginobili a few weeks ago in the Barbosa thread: "I don’t like people that cry a lot and complain," Ginobili said in the postseason. "But I’m not going to make that change my way of playing, the way I feel the game."

I think it would be fair that Dirk is not going to change the way he plays either just because Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan complain about it.


Other interesting quotes from that Barbosa thread:


It is amazing how weak some NBA players are. Barbosa's crying and blaming Manu for his injury that was a result of incidental contact places him in the same lack of class as Allen and Carter. These little girls need to learn to nut it up, understand it is a man's game and just play ball.

Well said, 5ToolMan. Basketball is a contact sport. Players will "flop." Players will swing elbows, and sometimes get away with it. "Nut it up" and play ball.


Vince whines
Ray whines
Leandro whines
... not good company for a breaking out youngster like Leandro

Tim doesn't whine
Manu doesn't whine

Well, Tim doesn't USUALLY whine ... in this case he did.

[dougp]

I think it would be fair that Dirk is not going to change the way he plays either just because Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan complain about it.

Throwing Elbows != Flopping

Flopping really only stands a chance to injure the person flopping (stepping on someone and twisting ankle, falling wrong on wrist, etc.)

Throwing an elbow could result in a lot more, a LOT more ...

[JamStone]

A player could go for a block and poke someone's eye out. Someone could set a pick and the player being picked could break his nose (happened last year with Carlos Arroyo).

Point is ... something legal and within the rules could result in something more severe than a flop or an intentional elbow.

It's a CONTACT SPORT. Players go into a game knowing there will be at least some physical contact and some rough play, to a certain extent.

[nkdlunch]

I loved Duncan reaction that got the technical. He even patted Bowen like his little boy to check if he was ok. Duncan is the man.

[pache100]

I loved Duncan reaction that got the technical. He even patted Bowen like his little boy to check if he was ok. Duncan is the man.

Yep! Timmy needs to get all fired up every once in awhile, it does him (and the team) good.

[dougp]

A player could go for a block and poke someone's eye out. Someone could set a pick and the player being picked could break his nose (happened last year with Carlos Arroyo).

Point is ... something legal and within the rules could result in something more severe than a flop or an intentional elbow.

It's a CONTACT SPORT. Players go into a game knowing there will be at least some physical contact and some rough play, to a certain extent.
Football is a contact sport ... get your terms right.

[JamStone]

enigma,

Are you saying basketball is NOT a contact sport? Are you serious?

[dmac]

"it just grazed Bowen's chest ... That, my friends, is a flop."

WTF? I saw it last night on replay, and reviewed the slo-mo replay just now on my DVR. Dirk's left elbow hit Bruce's left chest and then hit Bruce's left cheek. Whether Bruce flopped, or not, is totally separate. Elbow to the cheek was extremely clear and a missed foul. The ref blew it, and Tim was right to complain.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/bamboozool2/999_temp/Picture020.jpg

that's what I saw as well. No more Mavs until March! Welcome to SA Dirk Diggler Nowitski!

[dougp]

enigma,

Are you saying basketball is NOT a contact sport? Are you serious?
Not in the sense you're saying ... throwing elbows is not a legit tactic, period. That's a horrible play style, notice Shaq doesn't do it quite as much as he used to when he started getting called?

[JamStone]

Not in the sense you're saying ... throwing elbows is not a legit tactic, period. That's a horrible play style, notice Shaq doesn't do it quite as much as he used to when he started getting called?


Are clutching shorts a legal tactic? How about tapping the elbow of a shooter when he raises to shoot a jumpshot?

Bruce Bowen does that. He gets away with it a lot of times. Are you saying he should stop doing that too?

Swinging elbows might not be a legal tactic, but it's part of the game. If the refs call it, the player will stop doing it. If the refs fail to call it, then the player is going to use it to give himself an advantage. If the refs see Bruce Bowen grab his opponent's shorts when the player is running through screens and they call it, Bruce might not do it as much. If they catch Bruce tapping the elbows of a shooter and give them the two shot foul, maybe Bruce doesn't do it as much. But, if they don't call it, Bruce is going to do it and use it to his advantage.

Basketball is a contact sport. Don't play if you're going to complain about some rough, physical contact. Bruce should know that the way he plays.

[Leetonidas]

Raking someone with an elbow in the face is not the same as "tapping" someone's shoulder or "clutching" someone's shorts.

[boutons]

btw, cropped out of my image is the back of Tim's head just off the lower-left edge of my image, ie, Tim was looking directly the elbowing action.

[dougp]

TexasBalla completely understands where I'm coming from ...

[duncan2k5]

people are just mad Bowen isn't on their team. quit complaining. Dirk was wrong. swinging the elbows to someone's face 9even without contact) is an automatic tech. the refs were just nutriding the two big market teams last night...plain and simple. i bet if timmy elbowed marquis daniels, he might have been ejected the way the officials were moving last night. another thing that pisses me off is how the refs allow the post defender to ALWAYS plant their hand into duncan's back and push when he tries to back down. he needs to hold the ball and point it out while it's happening...the refs HAVE to call it. that happened in a minnesota game where the man guarding KG had his hands in his back and KG held the ball and pointed it out to the ref, then the ref blew the whistle. no complaints from either person after that..they know the rules. abide by it.

[JamStone]

Swinging an elbow might result in a more serious injury than clutching shorts or tapping an elbow, but they are all illegal tactics under the rules that players sometimes use to gain an advantage and sometimes get away with.

Setting a moving pick can result in a serious injury, and it is illegal. But, it's part of the game. Some players swing their elbows to create room. It's part of the game. Some players clutch and grab when they play defense. It's part of the game.

Have you never seen Manu Ginobili use his elbows in a questionable way to either create room or to prevent a defender from blocking his shot attempt? It's part of the game.

When a player is attacking the rim late in the fourth quarter of a very close game, and he is put on his butt with a hard foul so he doesn't make the lay-up or slam dunk, is that not hard, physical action within the rules? Basketball is a contact sport. When Dwyane Wade uses Alonzo Mourning to set a pick on his defender and the unsuspecting defender gets a hard blast to his shoulder and separates his shoulder, is that not hard, physical action within the rules? Basketball is a contact sport. When Manu Ginobili waits for an out-of-control Vince Carter and takes a charge that knocks the wind out of him, is that not hard, physical action within the rules? Basketball is a contact sport. When Dwight Howard goes up for a dunk and Marcus Camby challenges him but is unable to block it and the force of Howard sends Camby to the floor, is that not hard, physical contact within the rules? Basketball is a contact sport.

Swinging your elbows and hitting someone across the face is not legal. But, it happens! If the refs don't call it, you suck it up and continue to play ball. Sometimes players get away with bending the rules or using illegal tactics, like clutching, tapping shooters' elbows, swinging elbows, travelling, flopping, goal-tending. The refs miss calls. Suck it up, and play ball. A lot of Spurs fans make comments to that effect when another team complains about calls or Manu's flopping or Bruce Bowen's defense. Suck it up!

Basketball is a contact sport. Players bend the rules. Referees miss calls.

Get over it.

[Leetonidas]

He didn't just hit Bruce with his elbow, he RAKED him with it hard and knocked Bruce to the floor. Tim doesn't get technicals for no reason.

[Pistons < Spurs]

On the slo-mo replay, it looked like a complete flop to me.

[Leetonidas]

On the slo-mo replay, it looked like a complete flop to me.

Whether it was a flop or not, you can't deny that Dirk raked Bruce with an elbow.

What makes me even more mad is that there was a no-call on that play, but Tim Duncan is called for traveling while he's being shoved out of bounds?