New CBA agreed upon, includes “expanded opportunities for trades and free agencies for mid and smaller team payrolls”

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1642054942700584963?s=46

Good news for the Spurs who thrive on being opportunistic with their roster moves.

[stnick2261]

I love April 1st announcements

[The Truth #6]

So Woj is doing April fools? Hmmm…

[Degoat]

This isn’t April fools lol it’s legit

[scott]

Curious to read about these “expanded opportunities”

Mis-season tournament also part of this, will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[JPB]

Curious to read about these “expanded opportunities”

Mis-season tournament also part of this, will be interesting to see how that plays out.

the mid-season tournament (the equivalent of "cups" in Soccer) is intriguing I believe, with the excitment of the NCCA Tournament and its one game elimination bracket but actual basketball on the field, and another trophy to win for any team with more uncertainty and surprises than in a 7 game series.

[scott]

the mid-season tournament (the equivalent of "cups" in Soccer) is intriguing I believe, with the excitment of the NCCA Tournament and its one game elimination bracket but actual basketball on the field, and another trophy to win for any team with more uncertainty and surprises than in a 7 game series.

I'm intrigued by how these "cups" are integrated into the regular season (the games will count as regular season games) unlike the way Cups are running in Soccer (to use your example). Cool concept, IMO.

[Ariel]

the mid-season tournament (the equivalent of "cups" in Soccer) is intriguing I believe, with the excitment of the NCCA Tournament and its one game elimination bracket but actual basketball on the field, and another trophy to win for any team with more uncertainty and surprises than in a 7 game series.
Football teams (I refuse to call the sport soccer :tongue) normally play once a week (weekends) in their domestic league, and mid week for the International tournaments / domestic cups. The calendar is completely different, the workload in the NBA is already so high that IMO they'd have to shorten the regular season if they want to add something like that. 82 games + playoffs is already too much.

[baseline bum]

Gross, I was hoping the owners would get some leverage against players signing long term deals and then forcing their way out. No one should get the the security of guaranteed years while also effectively becoming free agents whenever they want like we have seen with George, Leonard, Davis, Harden, and Simmons. Silver is such a shit commissioner, wish Stern was still here.

[TD 21]

McDaniels (Jalen) and Reid, here "we" come . . .

[Mr. Body]

Gross, I was hoping the owners would get some leverage against players signing long term deals and then forcing their way out. No one should get the the security of guaranteed years while also effectively becoming free agents whenever they want like we have seen with George, Leonard, Davis, Harden, and Simmons. Silver is such a shit commissioner, wish Stern was still here.

The league wants those players in the big markets. They have to reload the Lakers every time they can. The small markets just can't stop it.

[BacktoBasics]

Gross, I was hoping the owners would get some leverage against players signing long term deals and then forcing their way out. No one should get the the security of guaranteed years while also effectively becoming free agents whenever they want like we have seen with George, Leonard, Davis, Harden, and Simmons. Silver is such a shit commissioner, wish Stern was still here.
Yeah none of this shit was addressed. At the very least some kind of final year termination if you missed 80% of games. Injury or not.

[JPB]

Football teams (I refuse to call the sport soccer :tongue) normally play once a week (weekends) in their domestic league, and mid week for the International tournaments / domestic cups. The calendar is completely different, the workload in the NBA is already so high that IMO they'd have to shorten the regular season if they want to add something like that. 82 games + playoffs is already too much.

National cups are played the week end too in place of league games.. Mid-week (in Europe f.e) is reserved for cups like the Champions league or Europa League for the few qualified teams meaning most teams will only play one game a week, for a lower workload indeed... Then there's 3 dates I believe reserved for national team meetings... Meaning top players may play more than 60 games a season, plus official off season tournaments (World cup, Euro) and there's also debates about too big of a workload for star players...

But I agree with you and can't conceive an NBA mid season tournament without shortening the season, which I'm all in for no matter what. There are too many irrelevant games in a season where you can see the players are not in, wich many of them will confess, admitting they are throwing games here or there. That would also prevent load management but from a business pov, I've a hard time imagining Silver taking that road before mid season tournament really prove lucrative and entertaining so everyone agree to shorten the season

[Ariel]

McDaniels (Jalen) and Reid, here "we" come . . .
I'm in, especially Naz Reid
https://sports.yahoo.com/lakers-still-exploring-ways-to-improve-with-potential-russell-westbrook-deal-174912465.html

The name to keep an eye on most may be Timberwolves center Naz Reid, who has declined varied contract extension offers from Minnesota, sources told Yahoo Sports, and is said to be seeking salary in the ballpark of $10 million next season. While the Wolves have clearly shown interest in retaining Reid, Minnesota already has a mountain of money committed to Karl-Anthony Towns and Rudy Gobert, plus the Wolves seem unlikely to be able to afford both Reid and guard Jaylen Nowell at the price points each player desires.
He'll turn 24 just before the next season starts, 6'9" barefoot, 7'3" wingspan, can stretch the floor (~34% from 3), adequate FT shooter (~70%), skilled, can put the ball on the floor and slash, decent rebounder, plenty of room to grow. He'd be an interesting gamble to throw in the big man rotation, with Zach Collins and hopefully Bassey. He's supposedly looking for 10M per year, which is below non taxpayer MLE, and if Minnesota is looking to cut costs I think it'd be a very good option for both him (as a team rebuilding that can provide him ample opportunities to develop) and the Spurs (as a young guy with upside for cheap).
I'd also be interested in Jalen McDaniels, but the fact that Charlotte traded him makes me suspect he's looking for a very big paycheck, and IMO he hasn't proven he's worth it. But if he commands close to MLE money, I'm in as well.

[Mr. Body]

Apparently NBA players will now be able to invest in gambling companies.

[BackHome]

Cups are just stupid no one is going to watch NBA is going down the drain

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/money23green/status/1642204723297267712?s=46

So free agents who want to join a winning team will have to take an even bigger pay cut than ever before.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/jamesabaileyjr/status/1642325147716579328?s=46

[baseline bum]

The league wants those players in the big markets. They have to reload the Lakers every time they can. The small markets just can't stop it.

Silver works for the owners here. Though maybe they want that too for the TV deals? I expected some hardball from the small market owners after all the forced trade faggotry though.

[baseline bum]

https://twitter.com/jamesabaileyjr/status/1642325147716579328?s=46

If they wanted to help small market teams should have addressed players forcing their way out after getting the security of long term deals. It's like heads I win, tails you lose for teams not in LA, Miami, or NYC. Like you give a big contract to Kawhi Leonard and he's worth it, and he can just force his way out when he wants. You give a big contract to John Wall and he never lives up to it and you're either stuck with him or have to give up assets to get rid of him. Bullshit.

[Harry Callahan]

Gross, I was hoping the owners would get some leverage against players signing long term deals and then forcing their way out. No one should get the the security of guaranteed years while also effectively becoming free agents whenever they want like we have seen with George, Leonard, Davis, Harden, and Simmons. Silver is such a shit commissioner, wish Stern was still here.

I also hate the signing of $100M contracts that aren't treated as actual contracts (the Nephew situation). I wonder when interest becomes apathy for the NBA.

[Ice009]

If they wanted to help small market teams should have addressed players forcing their way out after getting the security of long term deals. It's like heads I win, tails you lose for teams not in LA, Miami, or NYC. Like you give a big contract to Kawhi Leonard and he's worth it, and he can just force his way out when he wants. You give a big contract to John Wall and he never lives up to it and you're either stuck with him or have to give up assets to get rid of him. Bullshit.

Yeah, I 100% agree. I didn't think a deal would be reached this easily. I thought the owners would try to come up for something in both situations/scenarios like you mentioned (both the Kawhi and John Wall ones). Both really should have been addressed IMO as small market teams get screwed over a lot of times in those exact same scenarios. It's not fair at all.

[K...]

No one cares about the drug testing changes?

[exstatic]

No one cares about the drug testing changes?

Are they actually going to do some, unannounced?

[cjw]

If they wanted to help small market teams should have addressed players forcing their way out after getting the security of long term deals. It's like heads I win, tails you lose for teams not in LA, Miami, or NYC. Like you give a big contract to Kawhi Leonard and he's worth it, and he can just force his way out when he wants. You give a big contract to John Wall and he never lives up to it and you're either stuck with him or have to give up assets to get rid of him. Bullshit.

A guy who is one of the best players in the world forced his way out of New York (Brooklyn). I think we’ve moved into a different era that looks more like Euro soccer where players get unhappy over a weekend and want a new job. It’s bad for the sport and fanbases.

[K...]

Are they actually going to do some, unannounced?

I read they will stop testing pot.

https://www.wweek.com/sports/2023/04/02/nba-will-stop-testing-players-for-cannabis-use/

I guess they were already not testing temporarily but is now permanent part of the CBA

[exstatic]

I read they will stop testing pot.

https://www.wweek.com/sports/2023/04/02/nba-will-stop-testing-players-for-cannabis-use/

I guess they were already not testing temporarily but is now permanent part of the CBA

Makes sense, since it's legal in many states now.

[Mr. Body]

There's some buzz about how teams above a double apron or something in luxury tax will not be able to pick up players in the buyout market, include cash considerations in trades, or trade draft picks for the next seven years out, and some other hardships?

If so, this would make adjusting contending teams that are in salary hell very difficult.

They might need a team with a lot of cap space to eat contracts to free them. Expiring contracts will also become even more valuable. Hmm...

[scott]

There's some buzz about how teams above a double apron or something in luxury tax will not be able to pick up players in the buyout market, include cash considerations in trades, or trade draft picks for the next seven years out, and some other hardships?

If so, this would make adjusting contending teams that are in salary hell very difficult.

They might need a team with a lot of cap space to eat contracts to free them. Expiring contracts will also become even more valuable. Hmm...

3 FRPs for Doug!

[Mr. Body]

3 FRPs for Doug!

I'm not sure if that means that double-apron luxury tax teams cannot trade future FRPs to get rid of salary. That's confusing.

Draymond seems to be having a fit on Twitter over the CBA, apparently. The team that got super-lucky with the last CBA and is so far in luxury tax hell this might mean making roster changes is completely impossible.

[scott]

Yeah Draymond's complaints are hilarious, like we're supposed to feel bad about the team with the $200MM payroll.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah Draymond's complaints are hilarious, like we're supposed to feel bad about the team with the $200MM payroll.

And the team where a sudden, miracle leap in salary cap allowed them to sign Kevin Durant outright. Unbelievable.

[exstatic]

I'm not sure if that means that double-apron luxury tax teams cannot trade future FRPs to get rid of salary. That's confusing.

Draymond seems to be having a fit on Twitter over the CBA, apparently. The team that got super-lucky with the last CBA and is so far in luxury tax hell this might mean making roster changes is completely impossible.

I think he's gone, regardless. His punch sent them from a defending champ to a bottom half playoff team.

[Dejounte]

I’ll take Draymond on this team. The perfect vet, IMO.

[Mr. Body]

I’ll take Draymond on this team. The perfect vet, IMO.

I can only imagine which of our players he'd punch in the offseason.

[scott]

Draymond would be an excellent mentor for Sochan, tbh

[Dejounte]

I can only imagine which of our players he'd punch in the offseason.

I don’t think we have any smug players like Poole, tbh. Dude has a punchable face.

[lefty20]

Draymond wouldn't work on a small market team with no must-see superstars on the roster. His antics wouldn't be ignored like they are rn. He'd prolly pick up his 16th tech in the 8th game of the season and keep averaging 2 T's per game.

[exstatic]

Draymond wouldn't work on a small market team with no must-see superstars on the roster. His antics wouldn't be ignored like they are rn. He'd prolly pick up his 16th tech in the 8th game of the season and keep averaging 2 T's per game.

Wrong timeline. He should go somewhere like Memphis, where they are a lot further along on their rebuild.

[Chinook]

If they wanted to help small market teams should have addressed players forcing their way out after getting the security of long term deals. It's like heads I win, tails you lose for teams not in LA, Miami, or NYC. Like you give a big contract to Kawhi Leonard and he's worth it, and he can just force his way out when he wants. You give a big contract to John Wall and he never lives up to it and you're either stuck with him or have to give up assets to get rid of him. Bullshit.

This really isn't the problem you're making it out to be. Leonard had every right to want a trade and to tell the Spurs that. He fucked up because he didn't do that and instead evaded the team and had his folks poison the well. Kawhi was an expiring contract who wanted to go to a specific team in free agency. You aren't going to legislate that out of the league, and it's gross to want to. Had Kawhi not tanked his value, the Spurs could've gotten a tidy haul from LAC or Philly or whatever. That's the best teams can hope for without dipping into paternalistic or authoritarian tendencies. If there was a way to punish that kind of toxic leaking from all sides, I'd've been a huge fan of it. The constant circus is definitely something we can do without. But it makes the NBA money, and it'd be impossible to enforce any measures aimed at fixing the media culture around the league.

We'll see if SA can take advantage of the changes that actually did happen to the CBA. There's a very good chance that teams are going to go into the summer believing the league is wide open, and the flip side of no one having firsts to trade this year is that more teams will have them to trade next year. McDermott has decent value, but I think Graham's has fallen. It altogether feels like it's a year too late for the Spurs. The higher extension cap would've made it more possible to keep Poeltl and maybe even Murray. They may be better off having traded them, but even having the leverage to give them a new deal might've helped. Hopefully if someone like Johnson shows he's worth it, the extension adjustment might help the Spurs down the road.

[baseline bum]

This really isn't the problem you're making it out to be. Leonard had every right to want a trade and to tell the Spurs that. He fucked up because he didn't do that and instead evaded the team and had his folks poison the well. Kawhi was an expiring contract who wanted to go to a specific team in free agency. You aren't going to legislate that out of the league, and it's gross to want to.

The fuckface tried to force his way out with two seasons left on his contract. Unless you don't count going AWOL on the team as part of his move to force his way out.

[daslicer]

Draymond wouldn't work on a small market team with no must-see superstars on the roster. His antics wouldn't be ignored like they are rn. He'd prolly pick up his 16th tech in the 8th game of the season and keep averaging 2 T's per game.

He's a grossly overrated player. His antics only works on a stacked team. On a regular team it wouldn't work and like you said it would have no effect on his opponents. He's a front running POS troll. Trolling only works when you are in a position of power.

[daslicer]

I’ll take Draymond on this team. The perfect vet, IMO.

He would be a great tank commander but nothing else.

[Chinook]

The fuckface tried to force his way out with two seasons left on his contract. Unless you don't count going AWOL on the team as part of his move to force his way out.

Why would I count that? Do you think players only ever freak out because they want a trade? There was never any report that Kawhi asked for a trade during the season. Him acting the way he did was not an attempt to force the Spurs to trade him. It makes way more sense to believe his freak out was mostly about what he said it was: disbelief over the diagnosis the Spurs gave his knee. It's likely not going to be said much on this forum anymore, but a Kawhi who avoided any major injury situation might have had a chance at GOAT-candidate status. Even if you wouldn't go that far, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't've passed up guys like David Robinson. He basically was told he'd be a part-time player the rest of his career and would thus likely fail to make the same kind of legacy on his own. At best, he'd get accolades mostly as part of the Spurs' system, ala Duncan where dumbasses still think Pop made him despite his own greatness.

If you actually look back at the leaks and don't project Leonard wanting to go to LA on them, it seems pretty clear. The Spurs gave Kawhi a career-altering diagnosis just as he was hitting his prime, and he went through multiple stages of grief about it. Kawhi was like 25 when that happened; it's not surprising that he didn't handle it well. Seeing as he had a group of hangers-on who were hoping he'd be this huge cash-cow, he had a lot of people who were perfectly willing to lash out on his behalf. I do think Kawhi wanted to go home, but I believe the push for it was a response to the crisis he and his group had over the injury. The Spurs accommodated Leonard pretty soon after he actually asked to be traded. There's not a ton of reason to believe they sat on the request for a whole season.

[baseline bum]

Why would I count that? Do you think players only ever freak out because they want a trade? There was never any report that Kawhi asked for a trade during the season. Him acting the way he did was not an attempt to force the Spurs to trade him. It makes way more sense to believe his freak out was mostly about what he said it was: disbelief over the diagnosis the Spurs gave his knee. .

He went AWOL and refused to be around the team most of that season. Those actions speak pretty loudly as get me the fuck out of here.

[exstatic]

Why would I count that? Do you think players only ever freak out because they want a trade? There was never any report that Kawhi asked for a trade during the season. Him acting the way he did was not an attempt to force the Spurs to trade him. It makes way more sense to believe his freak out was mostly about what he said it was: disbelief over the diagnosis the Spurs gave his knee. It's likely not going to be said much on this forum anymore, but a Kawhi who avoided any major injury situation might have had a chance at GOAT-candidate status. Even if you wouldn't go that far, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't've passed up guys like David Robinson. He basically was told he'd be a part-time player the rest of his career and would thus likely fail to make the same kind of legacy on his own. At best, he'd get accolades mostly as part of the Spurs' system, ala Duncan where dumbasses still think Pop made him despite his own greatness.

If you actually look back at the leaks and don't project Leonard wanting to go to LA on them, it seems pretty clear. The Spurs gave Kawhi a career-altering diagnosis just as he was hitting his prime, and he went through multiple stages of grief about it. Kawhi was like 25 when that happened; it's not surprising that he didn't handle it well. Seeing as he had a group of hangers-on who were hoping he'd be this huge cash-cow, he had a lot of people who were perfectly willing to lash out on his behalf. I do think Kawhi wanted to go home, but I believe the push for it was a response to the crisis he and his group had over the injury. The Spurs accommodated Leonard pretty soon after he actually asked to be traded. There's not a ton of reason to believe they sat on the request for a whole season.

He literally left a championship team where he won FMVP and had Bird Rights, to go team up with Playoff Pee with a smaller than possible contract. It was always about LA.

Oh, and they did NOT accommodate him. After he fucked them over and essentially stole $19M, they were never sending him to LA.

[Chinook]

He went AWOL and refused to be around the team most of that season. Those actions speak pretty loudly as get me the fuck out of here.

They don't actually speak that way. Most of the time people avoid going to work, it's not explicitly a cry to get a job somewhere else. It's usually about personal shit they're going through. We heard about Aldridge asking out. More recently we heard about Kyrie and Durant (and basically every other star) asking out long before they were actually traded. There's no reason to believe Leonard did what he did particularly because the Spurs wouldn't trade him. Given the leaks coming out, we would've heard much sooner he'd asked to be moved if he actually did ask. If he didn't ask, what would acting out do to make it happen? That's why it makes more sense to believe he acted the way he did for the reasons he actually said, since they make sense on their own and would fit the timeline much better.

[Chinook]

He literally left a championship team where he won FMVP and had Bird Rights, to go team up with Playoff Pee with a smaller than possible contract. It was always about LA.

Oh, and they did NOT accommodate him. After he fucked them over and essentially stole $19M, they were never sending him to LA.

You seem to be misreading what I'm saying. Leonard wanted to go to LA. No one is disputing that. What's not clear is if he was away from the team in 2017 because he wanted to go to LA. It's likely his desire to go there was just as strong in 2016 as it was in 2017, but he wasn't doing that then. Everyone else seems who seems to act out to be traded manages to actually ask out before escalating.

[The Truth #6]

His actions or inaction, really, read like a bitter spouse. Poor communication sure, but he took it to a very weird space. That seems fairly objective.

As far as his Five Stages of Grief over his diagnosis, I don’t know if the timeline for that is accurate. He had a chronic knee issue that I thought was discussed earlier. And the Spurs were accurate in their diagnosis. He denied it like an idiot at best. If anything his uncle realized debating this diagnosis would extend his career by letting him sit out and see specialists as if there was something mysterious about his knee. Why defend that guy?

[Chinook]

His actions or inaction, really, read like a bitter spouse. Poor communication sure, but he took it to a very weird space. That seems fairly objective.

Pretty sure I never defended Kawhi. BB didn't come in here and say, "Leonard sucks". He instead came in and said the league should find a way to stop players like Leonard from forcing their way off teams. My point is that Leonard didn't actually do that. He asked to be traded with one year left on his deal and showed he was perfectly willing to leave a bit of cash on the table to sign in LA as a free agent. You can't legislate that out of the game; you shouldn't want to. There's nothing wrong with not liking Leonard. I don't want him to win anything at this point either. But strictly in terms of his trade request, it was fine. Just like George with Indy, Kawhi did the Spurs a favor by asking out if he had no intention of staying with them when his contract was up. The other stuff was bad, but there's not very good evidence that it was him trying to force his way out, because a player has to actually ask out before it makes any sense to throw a fit about it.


As far as his Five Stages of Grief over his diagnosis, I don’t know if the timeline for that is accurate. He had a chronic knee issue that I thought was discussed earlier. And the Spurs were accurate in their diagnosis. He denied it like an idiot at best. If anything his uncle realized debating this diagnosis would extend his career by letting him sit out and see specialists as if there was something mysterious about his knee. Why defend that guy?

You list some the stages of grief while questioning whether he was going through them. Mind you I'm not a pop-psychologist. I don't care about it fitting that specific model. But if you actually go back and look at what was leaked, it's much more about Leonard fighting the reality of the diagnosis than him trying to get traded. If that was his goal, he could've just asked to be traded.

[Ariel]

Draymond Green doesn't want to take less money and a back seat to mentor someone else. His recent track record speaks very loudly. He'll most likely join the Lakers, Dallas, or some team like that where he can continue collecting big bucks while remaining in the spotlight to feed his ego and media career.

[The Truth #6]

Pretty sure I never defended Kawhi. BB didn't come in here and say, "Leonard sucks". He instead came in and said the league should find a way to stop players like Leonard from forcing their way off teams. My point is that Leonard didn't actually do that. He asked to be traded with one year left on his deal and showed he was perfectly willing to leave a bit of cash on the table to sign in LA as a free agent. You can't legislate that out of the game; you shouldn't want to. There's nothing wrong with not liking Leonard. I don't want him to win anything at this point either. But strictly in terms of his trade request, it was fine. Just like George with Indy, Kawhi did the Spurs a favor by asking out if he had no intention of staying with them when his contract was up. The other stuff was bad, but there's not very good evidence that it was him trying to force his way out, because a player has to actually ask out before it makes any sense to throw a fit about it.



You list some the stages of grief while questioning whether he was going through them. Mind you I'm not a pop-psychologist. I don't care about it fitting that specific model. But if you actually go back and look at what was leaked, it's much more about Leonard fighting the reality of the diagnosis than him trying to get traded. If that was his goal, he could've just asked to be traded.

Yeah, we might be having two separate, overlapping conversations.

And sure maybe he was going through grief, I did mention denial, touche. Yet, he never acted like someone who wanted to be part of the team after that. And that odd behavior seems to have followed him. Is he still grieving or just “neurodivergent”. I agree he could have been an all-timer but his chronic knee injury prevented that, ultimately.

Anyway…

[offset formation]

Makes sense, since it's legal in many states now.

Tell my employer that.

[exstatic]

Tell my employer that.

The NBA overlaps many states, both cannabis legal, and not. Wouldn’t be fair to test those in legal states. Wouldn’t be fair to ONLY test those in non-legal states. Best option is to not test for cannabis.

[offset formation]

Pretty sure I never defended Kawhi. BB didn't come in here and say, "Leonard sucks". He instead came in and said the league should find a way to stop players like Leonard from forcing their way off teams. My point is that Leonard didn't actually do that. He asked to be traded with one year left on his deal and showed he was perfectly willing to leave a bit of cash on the table to sign in LA as a free agent. You can't legislate that out of the game; you shouldn't want to. There's nothing wrong with not liking Leonard. I don't want him to win anything at this point either. But strictly in terms of his trade request, it was fine. Just like George with Indy, Kawhi did the Spurs a favor by asking out if he had no intention of staying with them when his contract was up. The other stuff was bad, but there's not very good evidence that it was him trying to force his way out, because a player has to actually ask out before it makes any sense to throw a fit about it.

Come on Chinook. Did the Spurs a favor...the fuck???!!!???

You know what he did. He basically stopped supporting his teammates and even hid from team officials (reportedly even Pop himself) and would have undoubtedly played tge injury card in his last contract year.

He went total bitch ass. And because of those behaviors and the actions of his uncle, ought to never be shown the grace or benefit of the doubt. For all intents and purposes, nephew is the precipitating factor that led to the current modus operandi for getting out of your contract early. And since followed by others.

Pretty shocked by your take here quite frankly.

[offset formation]

The NBA overlaps many states, both cannabis legal, and not. Wouldn’t be fair to test those in legal states. Wouldn’t be fair to ONLY test those in non-legal states. Best option is to not test for cannabis.

My company is in like 35 states. Again, I wish someone would tell my employer so I could just stop being tested too.

[MannyIsGod]

Unless you drive or operate machinery for a job its pretty shit to be tested in 2023 tbh. And even then.

[offset formation]

Unless you drive or operate machinery for a job its pretty shit to be tested in 2023 tbh. And even then.

Should clarify...I'm not tested, but we are subject to it at any time or at supervisor's request. Which is basically a way for people to fire people they know that smoke regardless of job performance.

[wildbill2u]

I don't know how you deal with the brazen efforts by some players to get out of contract situations and certain cities by simply using bullshit tactics like phantom injuries, deliberately not following coaching orders, not playing at the level they are being paid for or just being jerks. we've seen all of these tactics over the past few years. If the league tries to come up with some reasonalbe rules, they will be too weak to enforce them--and failing all else, players will simply claim racism and indentured servitude to back off the league. The league has to face the fact that the U.S. government will ultimately be the decider as to what can and can't be done IMO.

Perhaps it is time we stop looking at the NBA as a performance league based on real competition and just enjoy it as entertainment, much like when the Harlem Globetrotters used to come into town with their tame opposition.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Feels like small market teams still will be getting the shaft.

[spurraider21]

Why would I count that? Do you think players only ever freak out because they want a trade? There was never any report that Kawhi asked for a trade during the season. Him acting the way he did was not an attempt to force the Spurs to trade him. It makes way more sense to believe his freak out was mostly about what he said it was: disbelief over the diagnosis the Spurs gave his knee. It's likely not going to be said much on this forum anymore, but a Kawhi who avoided any major injury situation might have had a chance at GOAT-candidate status. Even if you wouldn't go that far, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't've passed up guys like David Robinson. He basically was told he'd be a part-time player the rest of his career and would thus likely fail to make the same kind of legacy on his own. At best, he'd get accolades mostly as part of the Spurs' system, ala Duncan where dumbasses still think Pop made him despite his own greatness.

If you actually look back at the leaks and don't project Leonard wanting to go to LA on them, it seems pretty clear. The Spurs gave Kawhi a career-altering diagnosis just as he was hitting his prime, and he went through multiple stages of grief about it. Kawhi was like 25 when that happened; it's not surprising that he didn't handle it well. Seeing as he had a group of hangers-on who were hoping he'd be this huge cash-cow, he had a lot of people who were perfectly willing to lash out on his behalf. I do think Kawhi wanted to go home, but I believe the push for it was a response to the crisis he and his group had over the injury. The Spurs accommodated Leonard pretty soon after he actually asked to be traded. There's not a ton of reason to believe they sat on the request for a whole season.
the way i remember it the spurs wanted him back on the court and their doctors said he's good to go, and it was kawhi who was skeptical because he didnt feel right, or something along those lines

[exstatic]

Feels like small market teams still will be getting the shaft.

Nah, this will pretty much spell the end of Superteams. That second salary apron is a bitch. They almost can’t do anything to improve, or even keep an even keel.

[spurraider21]

Pretty sure I never defended Kawhi. BB didn't come in here and say, "Leonard sucks". He instead came in and said the league should find a way to stop players like Leonard from forcing their way off teams. My point is that Leonard didn't actually do that. He asked to be traded with one year left on his deal and showed he was perfectly willing to leave a bit of cash on the table to sign in LA as a free agent. You can't legislate that out of the game; you shouldn't want to. There's nothing wrong with not liking Leonard. I don't want him to win anything at this point either. But strictly in terms of his trade request, it was fine. Just like George with Indy, Kawhi did the Spurs a favor by asking out if he had no intention of staying with them when his contract was up. The other stuff was bad, but there's not very good evidence that it was him trying to force his way out, because a player has to actually ask out before it makes any sense to throw a fit about it.



You list some the stages of grief while questioning whether he was going through them. Mind you I'm not a pop-psychologist. I don't care about it fitting that specific model. But if you actually go back and look at what was leaked, it's much more about Leonard fighting the reality of the diagnosis than him trying to get traded. If that was his goal, he could've just asked to be traded.
this is a VERY generous interpretation of events. "asking" to be traded is like, ok im showing up to work and giving it my all, but i've let my preference be known. he refused to play for much of 2018. and by the time that offseason rolled around it was pretty clear he never intended to play for the spurs again. that's not "asking" to be traded.

when a team signs a player to a contract, they make plans around those players. when you get a guy on a 4 year deal, you cant plan for him to bolt in 2 years. and if a player whines and cries about wanting to be traded, and letting it be known publicly (either directly or through intentional leaks), it tanks the team's leverage to actually make something happen. so even if that situation where a team is forced to abandon their 4 year plan, now you've kneecapped their ability to make lemonade.

i do agree with you that there probably isnt a great way to legislate this. or at least none that any of us have thought of

[Chinook]

the way i remember it the spurs wanted him back on the court and their doctors said he's good to go, and it was kawhi who was skeptical because he didnt feel right, or something along those lines

The Spurs, I believe, told Leonard that his knee was basically what it was from now on and that he'd have to learn to manage the pain. Leonard played on it, and it hurt, so he stopped. The Spurs were right that Kawhi was always going to be hurt, but Leonard was hoping he had some injury that could be cured, hence his search for a doctor who agreed.

[Chinook]

this is a VERY generous interpretation of events. "asking" to be traded is like, ok im showing up to work and giving it my all, but i've let my preference be known. he refused to play for much of 2018. and by the time that offseason rolled around it was pretty clear he never intended to play for the spurs again. that's not "asking" to be traded.

when a team signs a player to a contract, they make plans around those players. when you get a guy on a 4 year deal, you cant plan for him to bolt in 2 years. and if a player whines and cries about wanting to be traded, and letting it be known publicly (either directly or through intentional leaks), it tanks the team's leverage to actually make something happen. so even if that situation where a team is forced to abandon their 4 year plan, now you've kneecapped their ability to make lemonade.

i do agree with you that there probably isnt a great way to legislate this. or at least none that any of us have thought of

You and Off both seem to have missed what I'm saying. Leonard was planning on leaving as a free agent. No one was going to stop that. We shouldn't want there to be a mechanism to stop that. So if he was going to leave anyway, asking to be traded when he actually asked (summer of 2018) was fine. How he behaved was bad, and I've never said it wasn't. But it's only seen as a trade demand retroactively. Leonard (through leaks) was not subtle about what the issue was. People want to act like it's silly to think Leonard could've spiraled because of his injury when John Wall wrote about how much his injury caused him to spiral/. (Yes, his mother dying is what almost sent him over the edge, but he was already spiraling before that according to the article.) Kawhi's human. He got devastating news and he, and definitely his followers who wanted to grow his brand, and he took it really poorly. That's actually what was being reported at the time, but people want to ignore that and push the idea that Leonard alienated himself in order to be traded when he could've just asked to be traded. If there was evidence that he did, the Spurs denied him and then he started acting weird, that would be one thing. But people want to just assume that, and it's not parsimonious.

Leonard didn't make it known until the final year of his deal. Leonard was actually hurt in 2017 -- he's still hurt. That's just who he is now. In an ideal world, the Spurs get a good asset for him in either 2017 or 2018 and can move forward relieved that they avoided giving Kawhi the DPE with his injury prognosis. Outside of scenarios where Leonard gets Clockwork Oranged into staying (or a scenario where Leonard both stays but somehow no longer has a degenerative knee condition), that's the best outcome. That it didn't happen is something that Leonard is largely at fault for. But I don't particularly think Leonard likes the way his career has turned out. I don't think he likes being the poster child for load management. Leonard's legacy took a huge hit because of his injury (ignoring the literal pain it causes). He's not Brandon Roy, but he could've been in the conversation with Kobe in my opinion. It's a huge fall for him. I don't expect Leonard to ever really talk about what happened to that level publicly, but I do think he and Pop have talked about it. I think that's why the two of them are much cooler with each other than a lot of fans can believe is warranted.

So yeah, hate Kawhi. He did the Spurs wrong. I hope he never wins a thing again. But there's no way the league can prevent that situation, just like it can't prevent Simmons basically losing his mind two years ago. Fans refusing to consider nuance does not make those situations simple.

[The Truth #6]

I typically agree with Chinook but I think you are accepting Kawhi at his word too much, and I’m still trying to confirm the timeline of his chronic knee issue. I thought we later learned that he was aware of his knee issues before the season when he sat out. And so I don’t see it as a sudden revelation. He didn’t have an acute injury it was a chronic degeneration.

Also, I think it should be considered that he was feeling disrespected that Lamarcus got a new contract before he did… Isn’t that right? Didn’t Lamarcus get an extension or something to that effect that summer before the lost season for Kawhi?

Initially when Kawhi didn’t suit up for preseason that’s what I assumed it was and I still think it’s a valid theory. It’s a lot of factors but I think Kawhi wanted out and convinced himself the Spurs were the villains to justify his actions. It’s human nature, but still very childish.

[exstatic]

I typically agree with Chinook but I think you are accepting Kawhi at his word too much, and I’m still trying to confirm the timeline of his chronic knee issue. I thought we later learned that he was aware of his knee issues before the season when he sat out. And so I don’t see it as a sudden revelation. He didn’t have an acute injury it was a chronic degeneration.

Also, I think it should be considered that he was feeling disrespected that Lamarcus got a new contract before he did… Isn’t that right? Didn’t Lamarcus get an extension or something to that effect that summer before the lost season for Kawhi?

Initially when Kawhi didn’t suit up for preseason that’s what I assumed it was and I still think it’s a valid theory. It’s a lot of factors but I think Kawhi wanted out and convinced himself the Spurs were the villains to justify his actions. It’s human nature, but still very childish.

Kawhi had completed 2 seasons of his 5 year deal, and was not eligible for an extension.

[spurraider21]

The Spurs, I believe, told Leonard that his knee was basically what it was from now on and that he'd have to learn to manage the pain. Leonard played on it, and it hurt, so he stopped. The Spurs were right that Kawhi was always going to be hurt, but Leonard was hoping he had some injury that could be cured, hence his search for a doctor who agreed.
Was this reported on or are these just best guesses. Honest question as i don’t recall

[JPB]

Should clarify...I'm not tested, but we are subject to it at any time or at supervisor's request. Which is basically a way for people to fire people they know that smoke regardless of job performance.

That's stupefying.

[wildbill2u]

I seem to remember that he played pretty well after leaving the Spurs. Championship in Toronto and MVP of Finals while continuing to receive All this and All that during that year. I don't buy that he found a miracle cure. He just wanted to play somewhere else for whatever reason. He also wanted to keep his career on track at Toronto with some outstanding play that would guarantee him a move to his desired area of the country. He obviously put in the necessary work in Toronto. He got the move he wanted, but the team he got didn't bring him another championship.

I think you can argue that we got a fair share of his good performances/years. I wish he had stayed until retirement, but it's his life in the end and he wanted to change it. Let it go.

[Chinook]

Was this reported on or are these just best guesses. Honest question as i don’t recall

It was in the reporting. Wanna say Michael C Wright.

[spurraider21]

It was in the reporting. Wanna say Michael C Wright.
thanks. ive blocked a lot of this out of memory :lol

[Chinook]

I typically agree with Chinook but I think you are accepting Kawhi at his word too much, and I’m still trying to confirm the timeline of his chronic knee issue. I thought we later learned that he was aware of his knee issues before the season when he sat out. And so I don’t see it as a sudden revelation. He didn’t have an acute injury it was a chronic degeneration.

Also, I think it should be considered that he was feeling disrespected that Lamarcus got a new contract before he did… Isn’t that right? Didn’t Lamarcus get an extension or something to that effect that summer before the lost season for Kawhi?

Initially when Kawhi didn’t suit up for preseason that’s what I assumed it was and I still think it’s a valid theory. It’s a lot of factors but I think Kawhi wanted out and convinced himself the Spurs were the villains to justify his actions. It’s human nature, but still very childish.

We learned a lot of stuff in retrospect with pieces like that one MCW put out. But that the Spurs and Kawhi disagreed about his injury was always the story. That he was trying to get out of SA was the retroactive thing.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Nah, this will pretty much spell the end of Superteams. That second salary apron is a bitch. They almost can’t do anything to improve, or even keep an even keel.

That would be great. The NBA might become watchable again.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Kawhi didn't want to think it was a chronic issue, the Spurs correctly thought it was but manageable.

That is all well and good but the NBA contract is what it is and you should not be able to just ghost your employer for months during the production cycle and still honor an employment contract.

[baseline bum]

That's stupefying.

It's pretty standard in a lot of jobs in the US. You work construction or you're an electrician or anything like that and a lot of places you get injured on the job your company will drug test you to try to get out of responsibility.