Spurs add new shooting coach Jimmy Baron

[TXstbobcat]

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/san-antonio-spurs-hire-new-shooting-coach-jimmy-baron-nba-tracker#:~:text=The%20San%20Antonio%20Spurs%20are, successful%2011%2Dyear%20career%20overseas.

[poopbox]

We going to hire a don't pull your dick out at work coach ? We desperately need one:downspin:

[NickiRasgo]

OT: Tiago just bid a farewell to Nets on his Instagram.

[Ocotillo]

OT: Tiago just bid a farewell to Nets on his Instagram.

All of the assistants are being cut loose so Vaughn can hire his own staff.

[Philthemage]

Do we know what was the reason Chip left? Was it just due to the Presti relationship?

[Ice009]

Do we know what was the reason Chip left? Was it just due to the Presti relationship?

Yeah, I never really asked this. I assume it's because Pop is probably going to retire soon and maybe Chip didn't want to stick around with a rebuilding team. I guess if he knows Sam Presti quite well, and then also the chance to go to an up and coming exciting young team may have been the reasons?

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/JeremySochan/status/1671228311635099685

[GAustex]

Pop would doghouse him for the last shot

[tonight...you]

Pop would doghouse him for the last shot
Pop's mellowed out.
Age, it does that to you.

[rankingtear]

Do we know what was the reason Chip left? Was it just due to the Presti relationship?

I recall reading somewhere that he wants to work less. Maybe he is strictly a shooting coach there and someone else handles other player development duties.

[RC_Drunkford]

I mean he taught John Wall how to shoot. He gotta be good right?

[TD 21]

I mean he taught John Wall how to shoot. He gotta be good right?

It didn't take.

[exstatic]

It didn't take.

His second year, he shot .071 from three, 7%. The fact that he has a career rate of 32% means that something took.

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm not high at all on our new shooting coach. But I hope he proves me wrong

[TD 21]

His second year, he shot .071 from three, 7%. The fact that he has a career rate of 32% means that something took.

:lmao So caught up in being an apologist that you can't even decipher a joke from criticism.

[playblair]

I'm not high at all on our new shooting coach. But I hope he proves me wrong
new coach says shooting form doesnt matter.......

http://youtu.be/DaDy8k0qbW4

[RC_Drunkford]

interesting. I mean it does matter, but then you see guys like Kevin Martin who have an unorthodox form, but still shoot at a high percentage. So he's not wrong.

[exstatic]

interesting. I mean it does matter, but then you see guys like Kevin Martin who have an unorthodox form, but still shoot at a high percentage. So he's not wrong.

People think Black or Sochan have this awful form. They don't. MKG had an awful form. Both Sochan and Black just need to remove the left hand earlier in the shooting process.

[RC_Drunkford]

People think Black or Sochan have this awful form. They don't. MKG had an awful form. Both Sochan and Black just need to remove the left hand earlier in the shooting process.

sure it's in the details. Follow thru, having the ball go off middle or index finger, triple threat position, keeping the elbow in, etc. I'm pretty confident Sochan can become a decent shooter

[Dingle Barry]

God dammit I was checked out about the team last year and didn't know we lost Chip. I was expecting Wemby would get to work with him. That sucks ass.

[playblair]

thoughts on his performance :huh

[scott]

What do we think this guy does in practice?

[spurraider21]

1851809412064702483

[objective]

He has Castle building new parapets with all them bricks

[james evans]

1851809412064702483
and this is how he will be defended as long he is with us because we simply don't like signing or drafting shooters. We always are asking why Wemby isn't posting up. He can't post up when 3 or 4 players are guarding him in the paint daring the other 4 players on the floor to shoot

[james evans]

new coach says shooting form doesnt matter.......

http://youtu.be/DaDy8k0qbW4
i hope he's saving and investing his money because the performance of our players the past 2 seasons is ensuring there won't be a bidding war for him in the future.

[RC_Drunkford]

Playing Wesley and Castle together certainly helps. Throw some Sochan and Zach Collins in there too. :pop: „why are you not scoring?“

[widowmaker]

I coined the defense as “the wemby zone”

[NASpurs]

Another guy collecting checks. Must be nice to have these kinds of connections.

[z0sa]

Whoever he is, he sucks at his job.

[thOOdee]

new coach says shooting form doesnt matter.......

http://youtu.be/DaDy8k0qbW4


sounds great, but the completely opposite of what sochan is actually doing. Shooting like he's counting steps in his head, with an extra hitch while rasing up just for fun.

[DPG21920]

Concerning for sure. Castle just got here so we wont include him.

But Sochan made no progress. Keldon 3 ball still wildly inconsistent. Wemby 3 ball not bankable just yet. Spurs have to have some of these guys develop a solid consistent 3 ball or it’s going to be bad.

Dev has it. Need 2 more out of Keldon/Wemby/Castle/Sochan with Sochan already looking like a lost cause and Keldon looking like he may not be here in 2 years. So really need Dev + Castle + Wemby to show the type of shooting growth that so many on OKC have shown working with Chip.

[DPG21920]

I mean we seemingly see SO many success stories on other teams; guys who are good defenders but questionable shooters but are really progressing and spurs just really have not had anyone make that shooting leap in that same regard. It’s a little concerning

Look at Coulibaly, all the guys on OKC, Bridges (although hes regressing and something is going on there), Herb Jones, etc….

[exstatic]

God dammit I was checked out about the team last year and didn't know we lost Chip. I was expecting Wemby would get to work with him. That sucks ass.

He’s been gone since summer of 2022. None of the three picks that year got a chance to work with him.

[exstatic]

THIS is the coach that should be fired. A LOT of problems would just evaporate if 3-4 guys could elevate their long ball to just 35-36%. Not asking for Curry level results.

[spurraider21]

I mean we seemingly see SO many success stories on other teams; guys who are good defenders but questionable shooters but are really progressing and spurs just really have not had anyone make that shooting leap in that same regard. It’s a little concerning

Look at Coulibaly, all the guys on OKC, Bridges (although hes regressing and something is going on there), Herb Jones, etc….
Ryan Dunn seemingly overnight :lol

[DPG21920]

Ryan Dunn seemingly overnight :lol

There are an awful lot of guys improving their shooting across the league where Spurs are not having anyone pop….still time especially for Wemby/Castle but man we need them to show similar growth in shooting as we’ve seen elsewhere or we need to really start asking questions.

[spurraider21]

There are an awful lot of guys improving their shooting across the league where Spurs are not having anyone pop….still time especially for Wemby/Castle but man we need them to show similar growth in shooting as we’ve seen elsewhere or we need to really start asking questions.
sochan still cant make them (has stopped taking them, really), and he takes even longer to get the shots off now

[objective]

Ryan Dunn seemingly overnight :lol

Who needs 3&D when you can have a future draft pick from a team with a young top 5 player?

It's not just the improvements, I think scouting comes into it also

Spurs happily made sure the media knew that they were at EVERY practice for Castle. Why? They couldn't figure out his game in only half the time? After they were convinced ... They couldn't move on?

They couldn't have spent ANY of those practices scouting other players? They just had to see every single brick instead of spending time on other players when they knew they had a good chance for a second first round pick?

Once their pets were off the board, it was either trade out or pick a name of a player they never scouted like Alfrederick Hughes, a glorious Spurs tradition

[playblair]

Who needs 3&D when you can have a future draft pick from a team with a young top 5 player?

It's not just the improvements, I think scouting comes into it also

Spurs happily made sure the media knew that they were at EVERY practice for Castle. Why? They couldn't figure out his game in only half the time? After they were convinced ... They couldn't move on?

They couldn't have spent ANY of those practices scouting other players? They just had to see every single brick instead of spending time on other players when they knew they had a good chance for a second first round pick?

Once their pets were off the board, it was either trade out or pick a name of a player they never scouted like Alfrederick Hughes, a glorious Spurs tradition


when you hire from losing franchises u get loser results...........this is the head scout/director

Adam Glessner comes on as director of basketball intelligence Glessner joins the Silver and Black after spending the last four seasons with the Detroit Pistons. He spent the last two years as Detroit’s director of player personnel after being promoted from pro scout in 2016. Glessner worked with the Charlotte Hornets as a coaching associate for one season after six years with the Orlando Magic. After graduating from the University of Florida, Glessner joined the Magic as an assistant video coordinator in 2007 and was later elevated to video coordinator and analyst.

[R. DeMurre]

I suppose someday the full story of why Chip Engelland wasn't paid/retained will come out, but for now it's still a mystery. I wouldn't be surprised if Pop's lack of enthusiasm for the three point shot played at least a small part.

[exstatic]

I suppose someday the full story of why Chip Engelland wasn't paid/retained will come out, but for now it's still a mystery. I wouldn't be surprised if Pop's lack of enthusiasm for the three point shot played at least a small part.

Pop has never been a proponent of the three ball, yet Chip stayed for 17 years. Don’t think that’s it.

[objective]

when you hire from losing franchises u get loser results...........this is the head scout/director

I've never heard of this guy until today and it makes me sick to find out

He's obviously a B.Wrong nepotism buddy hire, I didn't know Wrong was infecting the franchise and remaking it in his own image until now after how vigorously people defend him as a helpless observer with zero power

Looks like Glessner was a fellow Magic simptern with B.Wrong in Orlando, who then followed him to Detroit like the Castleberry to Kawhi cling-on connection

Then he follows him to San Antonio, and soon as B.Wrong gets promoted to General Manager, that's when his comfort scout Glessner gets his first of 2 promotions, and now he's the Senior Director of Player Personnel.

Fantastic. The 2 scouting architects who laid the foundation for the success of the Detroit Pistons the past 10 years are running the Spurs

[vy65]

Holy shit, this dude was literally coaching high schoolers before the Spurs hired him. You can't make this shit up.


Since 2020, he served as the Head Skills Coach at IMG Academy in Florida. Prior to IMG, he ran several professional skills clinics for a decade before joining IMG in 2020. At the pro level, he’s counted Blake Griffin, John Wall, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Love, and Derrick Rose as his clients.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2023/7/31/23814018/what-to-expect-san-antonio-spurs-jimmy-baron-shooting-coach

He really did wonders for Westbrook's jump shot.

[Robz4000]

Fire this clown tbh.

[J_Paco]

Holy shit, this dude was literally coaching high schoolers before the Spurs hired him. You can't make this shit up.



https://www.poundingtherock.com/2023/7/31/23814018/what-to-expect-san-antonio-spurs-jimmy-baron-shooting-coach

He really did wonders for Westbrook's jump shot.

Not sure when he was working with them, but Griffin, Love & Rose all became solid outside shooters over time.

On the Spurs front, it doesn't look good when only Champagnie is your biggest success and the team refuses to add 'ready made' shooters from the draft.

I get wanting multifaceted players or guys that have unteachable traits (Wesley's open court speed), but eventually you need to add just that are natural shooters.

I'm hoping Riley Minix balls out in the G-League and there is an eventual path for him on the main roster. The team needs to invest in movement shooting and (young) 3-point shooters badly.

[Bruno]

To me, it's really difficult to judge a shooting coach as an outsider observer. It's clearly not as simple as "Spurs don't shoot well, the shooting coach sucks." I don't know what to think about Jimmy Baron.

Baron was hired just before the Wembanyama draft. At that point, it was kinda logical to go after a shooting coach with no previous NBA experience given that Spurs were going through a slow rebuild. With Wembanyama speeding the rebuild, it's more questionable.

Even if it's hard to properly evaluate Baron for fans, it's quite easy for Pop, especially since he has worked with one of the best shooting coach for years. If Pop thinks he isn't good enough, Spurs shouldn't hesitate to hire an upgrade, even if it's costly.

[objective]

I remember the pre-Chip days when Pop would shit on reporters asking about having adding shooting coach to the staff. His voice would drip with disdain as he explained with agitation that the coaches on staff worked with players shots everyday as it was, what the hell was a shooting coach going to go different?

Who knows what's going on in Pop's head nowadays?

[RC_Drunkford]

when you hire from losing franchises u get loser results...........this is the head scout/director

wow so we got the Pistons GM and scout? No wonder we suck. Let's hire their headcoach from back then too, he can't be worse than the one we currently have.

[Raven]

1851809412064702483

yeah, that's an awful take from this guy, since the guy can just walk his way to a 10 foot jumper.. how long does he expect the spurs offence to not figure that out ?

[exstatic]

yeah, that's an awful take from this guy, since the guy can just walk his way to a 10 foot jumper.. how long does he expect the spurs offence to not figure that out ?

He needs to start shooting that jumper over the shorter defenders to force teams to guard him with a big.

[RC_Drunkford]

THIS is the coach that should be fired. A LOT of problems would just evaporate if 3-4 guys could elevate their long ball to just 35-36%. Not asking for Curry level results.

I'd rather fire the guy who hired him to be on his staff...

[J_Paco]

yeah, that's an awful take from this guy, since the guy can just walk his way to a 10 foot jumper.. how long does he expect the spurs offence to not figure that out ?

Yeah, two guys - that are both a foot shorter than him - standing in front of Wemby is "building a wall." LOL

Wemby needs to learn to be more physical and fucking fight for positioning.

[exstatic]

I'd rather fire the guy who hired him to be on his staff...

Will that make us shoot better?

[exstatic]

Yeah, two guys - that are both a foot shorter than him - standing in front of Wemby is "building a wall." LOL

Wemby needs to learn to be more physical and fucking fight for positioning.

He’s not built for that. He needs to shoot that fucking shot right over the top of them. That’s the only way he breaks that defense.

[J_Paco]

He’s not built for that. He needs to shoot that fucking shot right over the top of them. That’s the only way he breaks that defense.

Playing with toughness and punishing teams that played him with a guard or small forward is what got Dirk a ring. Victor is gonna have to make that shot over smaller defenders but also needs to punish them inside on the block.

He has some post moves and game, yet he's too enamored with playing 'like a guard' to use it constantly.

[DPG21920]

To me, it's really difficult to judge a shooting coach as an outsider observer. It's clearly not as simple as "Spurs don't shoot well, the shooting coach sucks." I don't know what to think about Jimmy Baron.

Baron was hired just before the Wembanyama draft. At that point, it was kinda logical to go after a shooting coach with no previous NBA experience given that Spurs were going through a slow rebuild. With Wembanyama speeding the rebuild, it's more questionable.

Even if it's hard to properly evaluate Baron for fans, it's quite easy for Pop, especially since he has worked with one of the best shooting coach for years. If Pop thinks he isn't good enough, Spurs shouldn't hesitate to hire an upgrade, even if it's costly.

Fair points but at end of the day if you’re seeing results every where else but not within your own program? It will raise some questions from outside looking in.

[playblair]

1849578928370762181

[exstatic]

Playing with toughness and punishing teams that played him with a guard or small forward is what got Dirk a ring. Victor is gonna have to make that shot over smaller defenders but also needs to punish them inside on the block.

He has some post moves and game, yet he's too enamored with playing 'like a guard' to use it constantly.

It’s not about wanting to. He’s not built to punish guys by posting them up. He’s not Joel fucking Embiid. He’s 7’4” and 225. That’s the reason they check him with a solidly built wing. The only way to beat that defense is to shoot over the top of it until they decide to put someone bigger on him.

[spurraider21]

It’s not about wanting to. He’s not built to punish guys by posting them up. He’s not Joel fucking Embiid. He’s 7’4” and 225. That’s the reason they check him with a solidly built wing. The only way to beat that defense is to shoot over the top of it until they decide to put someone bigger on him.
he can also step past them. we've seen him take the long strides then the weird little scoop shot. there are ways to post players up without having a big strength advantage

[R. DeMurre]

Pop has never been a proponent of the three ball, yet Chip stayed for 17 years. Don’t think that’s it.

Yeah, but the league has changed. In 2015, Houston led the entire league with 31.8 3ptFGA per game. Last season, 31.8 3ptFGA per game would've ranked 27th.

[objective]

1849578928370762181

Are they trying to lengthen the hitch? Get some wiggle and jiggle in the pause?

[Ice009]

1849578928370762181

Yeah, this guy doesn't look like a good shooting coach as I have no idea what he's trying to teach Jeremy.

[Bruno]

Fair points but at end of the day if you’re seeing results every where else but not within your own program? It will raise some questions from outside looking in.

It for sure raises questions, especially since as a new NBA shooting coach, he doesn't have a pedigree to have some trust in him. It's just that he has been here for a year and a half and I won't throw him under the bus because he hasn't turn Sochan, Wesley and Cissoko into good shooters.

There is also a little bias when looking at other teams. When looking at Spurs, you see the whole picture fails and success (mostly fails, sadly). When looking at other teams you see the successful players and not the failures because you don't notice the end of the bench player who never develops a jumpshot.

At the end, I'm hardly defending Baron. I have no reason to believe he is a good shooting coach. It's just that I don't have enough knowledge about him to say he is a bad one.

[Raven]

It’s not about wanting to. He’s not built to punish guys by posting them up. He’s not Joel fucking Embiid. He’s 7’4” and 225. That’s the reason they check him with a solidly built wing. The only way to beat that defense is to shoot over the top of it until they decide to put someone bigger on him.

there's actually so many ways to beat that it is almost laughable.. anything other than dribble around

[Strategic]

Maybe nobody’s familiar with this coach because he’s working from home. “Don’t shoot til I reboot.” Pop likes to keep up with the times.

[Pauleta14]

I remember the pre-Chip days when Pop would shit on reporters asking about having adding shooting coach to the staff. His voice would drip with disdain as he explained with agitation that the coaches on staff worked with players shots everyday as it was, what the hell was a shooting coach going to go different?

Who knows what's going on in Pop's head nowadays?

This.

I remember clearly his sarcasm, downplaying the impact of a shooting coach as if it was diminishing his role in the players's performances.

God complex

[MarCowMar]

1849578928370762181

I hope Sochan was clowning with him. That looked fucking awful.

[spurraider21]

I hope Sochan was clowning with him. That looked fucking awful.
its exactly how it looked in preseason and so far this year. theyve gotten rid of the sideways rotation and 2 handed shot, but replaced it with the worst hitch this side of kyle anderson

[CGD]

its exactly how it looked in preseason and so far this year. theyve gotten rid of the sideways rotation and 2 handed shot, but replaced it with the worst hitch this side of kyle anderson

Lesser evil. That sidewinder was gross.

[hoopdreams11]

new shooting coach is needed fast

[hoopdreams11]

Oh my Collins just airballed a three

[exstatic]

Lesser evil. That sidewinder was gross.

Yeah, take steps. First get rid of the side spin. A hitch is easier to fix than that.

I still want a new shooting coach though, if this is all he can do with Jeremy and Blake in two years.

[ginobilized]

Who was the shooting coach's shooting coach?

[8FOR!3]

Yeah, take steps. First get rid of the side spin. A hitch is easier to fix than that.

I still want a new shooting coach though, if this is all he can do with Jeremy and Blake in two years.

Maybe ya'll are right. But this hitch looks atrocious. To the eye it looks like a regression to me. I just want to see something more natural, like his jumper in the paint. If he can't do that I'd rather him not take 3's for now. But maybe they think him taking 3's is essential for his progression if they're really overhauling his shot that much. That's fine and I can live with it.

The good news is he's clearly improving as a player. He's one guy I think is always going to make some sort of an impact and not just disappear like Keldon when his shot isn't falling (it never falls).

[Ice009]

Yeah, take steps. First get rid of the side spin. A hitch is easier to fix than that.

I still want a new shooting coach though, if this is all he can do with Jeremy and Blake in two years.

Just finished watching the game (glad that the Spurs at least got the win, so I was happy with that). I think it's time to let this guy go. I watched closely when Jeremy shot his three pointers, and man, those shots looked awful. Did this shooting coach also implement the one handled free throws? He missed both of those two. Didn't even look close.

Bottom line IMO, all the guys that couldn't shoot, their shots look fucked up.

I was a fan of Reggie Miller when I was a kid, so I have no issue with guys shooting unorthodox (I also shot unorthodox to start with, but even though it was going in, I tweaked my own shot to be even more efficient - I always had a feel for shooting, though) if they're a good shooter shooting that way, but IMO, if you can't shoot, I believe the shooting coach should be making the player/s shot have a more traditional picture perfect form (it's the best chance of the ball going in IMO if you aren't a great shooter to begin with).

All this bullshit with one handed free throws and hitches in 3 point shots, I don't believe that's anywhere close to being the right way to go. How is the player supposed to develop any consistency shooting differently when he takes free throws and midrange and 3 pointers? You've got the player thinking. It's going to make the player think before shooting depending where he is on the court, and that is THE worst thing possible. You don't want to be thinking about the shot, it should flow automatically. I am beyond seriously questioning this guy's methods. This guy could seriously fuck up player's shooting doing stuff like this. I mean, I'd also worried that if the team gets a new guy in, Jeremy could be so discombobulated and never end up getting a decent shot.

[exstatic]

Just finished watching the game (glad that the Spurs at least got the win, so I was happy with that). I think it's time to let this guy go. I watched closely when Jeremy shot his three pointers, and man, those shots looked awful. Did this shooting coach also implement the one handled free throws? He missed both of those two. Didn't even look close.

Bottom line IMO, all the guys that couldn't shoot, their shots look fucked up.

I was a fan of Reggie Miller when I was a kid, so I have no issue with guys shooting unorthodox (I also shot unorthodox to start with, but even though it was going in, I tweaked my own shot to be even more efficient - I always had a feel for shooting, though) if they're a good shooter shooting that way, but IMO, if you can't shoot, I believe the shooting coach should be making the player/s shot have a more traditional picture perfect form (it's the best chance of the ball going in IMO if you aren't a great shooter to begin with).

All this bullshit with one handed free throws and hitches in 3 point shots, I don't believe that's anywhere close to being the right way to go. How is the player supposed to develop any consistency shooting differently when he takes free throws and midrange and 3 pointers? You've got the player thinking. It's going to make the player think before shooting depending where he is on the court, and that is THE worst thing possible. You don't want to be thinking about the shot, it should flow automatically. I am beyond seriously questioning this guy's methods. This guy could seriously fuck up player's shooting doing stuff like this. I mean, I'd also worried that if the team gets a new guy in, Jeremy could be so discombobulated and never end up getting a decent shot.

I’m ok with the FTs, because he was shooting 45% last December when the change was made, and finished the year at 74% and is shooting 72% so far this year. That wasn’t the shooting coach, either, it was Pop working with Jeremy before a game, and they rolled it out that night. Using one hand forces a good shooting motion. You can’t flare your elbow, or you will drop the ball. Don’t judge it just on one game.

I can usually tell if it’s a make or a miss before he releases it. If he gets set, and holds the ball for a beat, he’s probably 80-85% makes. If he tries to do it all in one motion without the pause, he’s probably as bad as before, 40ish percent.

[DPG21920]

It for sure raises questions, especially since as a new NBA shooting coach, he doesn't have a pedigree to have some trust in him. It's just that he has been here for a year and a half and I won't throw him under the bus because he hasn't turn Sochan, Wesley and Cissoko into good shooters.

There is also a little bias when looking at other teams. When looking at Spurs, you see the whole picture fails and success (mostly fails, sadly). When looking at other teams you see the successful players and not the failures because you don't notice the end of the bench player who never develops a jumpshot.

At the end, I'm hardly defending Baron. I have no reason to believe he is a good shooting coach. It's just that I don't have enough knowledge about him to say he is a bad one.

Absolutely - we as fans can only use the information we have to make decisions and as you said we are operating on limited info most of the time. But Spurs drafted a lot of non-shooters Keldon, Sochan, Castle etc… and it’s those guys (alongside Wemby) that we need to see make progress as they are the ones that matter. We can surely survive Blake, Branham, Cissoko etc….not panning out - spurs have plenty of draft capital to get those guys replaced with much more talented guys. But Wemby, Castle, Dev, Sochan and to a lesser degree Keldon now are much more critical and it will be tough if most of them don’t develop into good shooters.

[Pauleta14]

It for sure raises questions, especially since as a new NBA shooting coach, he doesn't have a pedigree to have some trust in him. It's just that he has been here for a year and a half and I won't throw him under the bus because he hasn't turn Sochan, Wesley and Cissoko into good shooters.

There is also a little bias when looking at other teams. When looking at Spurs, you see the whole picture fails and success (mostly fails, sadly). When looking at other teams you see the successful players and not the failures because you don't notice the end of the bench player who never develops a jumpshot.

At the end, I'm hardly defending Baron. I have no reason to believe he is a good shooting coach. It's just that I don't have enough knowledge about him to say he is a bad one.

I get your point but are the Spurs supposed to be a developmental school for coaches to satisfy Pop's willigness to develop them at his image or should they from time to time hire proven competent coaches?

[Bruno]

I get your point but are the Spurs supposed to be a developmental school for coaches to satisfy Pop's willigness to develop them at his image or should they from time to time hire proven competent coaches?

A shooting coach is a little particular since he mostly works alone. Regarding Baron's background: he is closely linked to Rob McClanaghan, who was a renowned personal trainer few years ago. They are close friends and they have worked together with a lot of NBA players during offseasons.

I agree with you that it's problematic to have only assistant coaches who have learned their job under Pop like Bret Brown, Matt Nielsen or Mitch Johnson. However, it has changed a little this summer. Darius Songaila left and Spurs didn't go with an in house solution. They could have promoted Kenny Trevino after his good SL coaching but they instead went with Michael Noyes, who has previously spend 5 years in Memphis. Spurs also went with someone form the Knicks org to coach in Austin.

[Jordan Jackson]

I guess the question is - is the jumpshot so broken it can’t be fixed?

Chip would evaluate pre-draft whether the shot was broken beyond repair and not worth the development time or if it was one he could fix/improve. Who does that now - if at all?

Right now it’s looking like it’s never going to happen for a few of these guys. And I don’t think you can have players under 36-37% from 3 (at a minimum) around Wemby.

[Pauleta14]

Thx Bruno, I didn't know that.

Let's hope they found some gems

[scott]

1876365176410370487

[BackHome]

I’m ok with the FTs, because he was shooting 45% last December when the change was made, and finished the year at 74% and is shooting 72% so far this year. That wasn’t the shooting coach, either, it was Pop working with Jeremy before a game, and they rolled it out that night. Using one hand forces a good shooting motion. You can’t flare your elbow, or you will drop the ball. Don’t judge it just on one game.

I can usually tell if it’s a make or a miss before he releases it. If he gets set, and holds the ball for a beat, he’s probably 80-85% makes. If he tries to do it all in one motion without the pause, he’s probably as bad as before, 40ish percent.


I think ICE makes a valid point in that shooting two totally different ways is going to have an impact on shooting percentages. To me even if the one hand shooting helps Sochan with his free throws I think it negatively impacts him on his 3 ball or any motion shooting. If Sochan was just a rebounding/shot blocking center you maybe able to live with that but he is a PF in today’s NBA he has to bring his percentages up.

My other question is how evolved was Pop in coaching shooting was he micro managing or was he allowing the coach to do what he thought was the best? Either way shooting is an issue and watching Vassell miss his free throws is just something I don’t see that often from a player of his caliber

[ginobilized]

1876365176410370487

I think I get your point here. Welcome to San Antonio Keegan Murray, Kyshawn George and KPJ!
This would give us 5 of the top 10. That would be formidable. For a masonry company called Bricksville USA.

A little surprised to see Dejounte and Sengun in the upper reaches of this list.

[exstatic]

I think ICE makes a valid point in that shooting two totally different ways is going to have an impact on shooting percentages. To me even if the one hand shooting helps Sochan with his free throws I think it negatively impacts him on his 3 ball or any motion shooting. If Sochan was just a rebounding/shot blocking center you maybe able to live with that but he is a PF in today’s NBA he has to bring his percentages up.

My other question is how evolved was Pop in coaching shooting was he micro managing or was he allowing the coach to do what he thought was the best? Either way shooting is an issue and watching Vassell miss his free throws is just something I don’t see that often from a player of his caliber

Shooting the FTs one handed forces a good repeatable shooting motion. You can’t flare your elbow. I don’t see how that hurts shooting from 3.

[exstatic]

I think I get your point here. Welcome to San Antonio Keegan Murray, Kyshawn George and KPJ!
This would give us 5 of the top 10. That would be formidable. For a masonry company called Bricksville USA.

A little surprised to see Dejounte and Sengun in the upper reaches of this list.

Sengün has never been a good 3 point shooter. That, and defense are his weaknesses.

[Ice009]

Shooting the FTs one handed forces a good repeatable shooting motion. You can’t flare your elbow. I don’t see how that hurts shooting from 3.

I disagree, it's fucked up his shot, and this shooting coach should have been fired already.

This isn't Shaquille O'neal (when they tried to get him to shoot underhanded), who is so dominant that he doesn't need a jump shot and you can afford to mess with his shot (Shaq didn't go for it anyway). This isn't Jacob Purdle where he's not a shooter, so you can mess with his free throws a little bit. Jeremy actually needs a jump shot. There is no way I could have learned to shoot if I had to take one handers then try and shoot with two hands in other areas. It's just messed up and I don't like the strategy at all. This jump shot he now has looks worse than ever. A slow disgusting looking shot.

[RC_Drunkford]

at least OKC got Chip now...:pctoss

[exstatic]

I disagree, it's fucked up his shot, and this shooting coach should have been fired already.

This isn't Shaquille O'neal (when they tried to get him to shoot underhanded), who is so dominant that he doesn't need a jump shot and you can afford to mess with his shot (Shaq didn't go for it anyway). This isn't Jacob Purdle where he's not a shooter, so you can mess with his free throws a little bit. Jeremy actually needs a jump shot. There is no way I could have learned to shoot if I had to take one handers then try and shoot with two hands in other areas. It's just messed up and I don't like the strategy at all. This jump shot he now has looks worse than ever. A slow disgusting looking shot.

Since the 1960s, no one actually shoots with two hands. When the ball is released, you only have one hand on it. It’s a matter of when you drop the guide hand off. If you watch the YouTube where Tony hosts Jeremy at his house in SA, they even talk about shooting, and Tony mentions that the improvement to HIS shot was dropping his left hand off earlier.

The reality is if Pop didn’t change FT Jeremy’s motion, we’d have another Ben Simmons on our hands. He was shooting 45% from the FT line, and timid about going to the rack because he didn’t want to go to the line. He finished that year at 70% on 2.1 attempts. His second year he was at 77% on 1.9 attempts. This year, he’s at 73% on 3.1 attempts.

The FT change didn’t break his jump shot, working on it did. His tendency was to always have the ball too close to his centerline, forcing his elbow to flair, and keeping his guide hand on too long imparted that weird 45 degree axial spin. I’ve watched the last couple of games, and his shot is flatter and no longer has that axial tilted spin.

When you radically change someone’s shot, it doesn’t immediately improve, it goes backwards first. You don’t go from 30%, then change the shot, and start going up 31,32,33%. His new shot is not natural to him yet, but the old one had to be thrown in the trash.

[CGD]

1876365176410370487

Wonder where Sochan ranks? He shot still hideous and the misses look awful, but it does seem to be going in more this year than last.

[Seventyniner]

Wonder where Sochan ranks? He shot still hideous and the misses look awful, but it does seem to be going in more this year than last.

This looks to be a cumulative stat rather than a rate stat, so Sochan's bad shooting hasn't taken much off the table because he doesn't shoot that often.

Meanwhile, Keldon takes a ton of threes and is shooting terribly, same with Giannis and free throws.

[Knoxxx]

The problem with Sochan 3 point shooting is his low release point, making it easy blocked. He needs to shoot like Jokic, fling it from overhead which is almost unblockable.

[KingKev]

at least OKC got Chip now...:pctoss

Funny thing is we likely offered way more money. Wonder why he still left?

[Ice009]

Since the 1960s, no one actually shoots with two hands. When the ball is released, you only have one hand on it. It’s a matter of when you drop the guide hand off.

Come on man, you know I know this. I didn't mean put two hands behind the ball and do a push shot. You've obviously taken that literally. Obviously the second hand is the guide hand and you take it off as you're shooting the ball. Do you actually think I shot the ball with two hands as a push shot.

Are you a decent shooter yourself? If you were, you'd know that shooting with one hand and then using the second hand as the guide does make a big difference. You can shoot with one hand closer to the rim, but try shooting a three pointer (especially NBA range) with one hand and no guide hand at all. It will make a huge difference without that guide hand. I could never picture myself even trying to shoot it with one hand from three point range. It would have been so much different. You need that guide hand on the ball the further the distance you're shooting from.
Since Jeremy was a shit shooter to begin with and doesn't seem to have much of a feel for shooting the ball, I believe it's messing with him mentally, and once you get messed with mentally as far as shooting the ball goes, it's hard to recover from that, and in some cases, you're done as a shooter if it starts affecting you mentally.

Tony's right about dropping the guide hand earlier, because shooting with two hands is just as bad. I used to see someone I played against shoot the ball with two hands like a push shot, but in this guy's case, his shots were actually going in. Terrible shot and form, but hey, he was making them.

I had an unorthodox shot that was going in when I first started playing/learning to shoot the ball (Reggie Miller was one of my favourite shooters/players when I first started following the NBA as a very young kid and I developed an unorthodox shot myself - this is why I don't ever mind someone shooting it differently if he/she can hit a higher percentage of shots, and if it's also not affecting their release time shooting it in an unorthodox manner, that's fine with me), but I didn't like the speed of my release, so eventually I changed to a more traditional form (I watched a lot of other players/shooters and did the changes myself). I didn't need a shooting coach or got told by anyone what to do, I did it myself and my shot didn't get worse while making those changes, but I didn't have to worry about spending time learning everything else (I just took hundreds of shots a day until it became second nature. Again, I didn't play anywhere near the level of these guys, so I don't have all their responsibilities. I could just focus on shooting and I always had a feel for shooting the ball). I know what you're saying about it getting worse when fixing someone's shot, but to me, that is mostly for players that never had a feel for shooting the ball in the first place. If you don't have a feel for shooting the ball, you're never likely to be a great shooter no matter how much you tweak/change your shot. These types of players/shooters unravel sometimes and they never become a good shooter. Players that have a feel for shooting the ball, you're likely to still hit shots with even non-picture perfect form. If you're going to draft someone that doesn't have a feel for shooting the ball, you're taking a huge risk as they are never likely are to improve their shot in any meaningful way no matter how much you tweak it or change it. This is why I think Chip had success with Kawhi and TP. They both could shoot it a little bit even with their uneven forms beforehand, and the tweaks weren't major. I believe both of those guys had some feel for shooting the ball which IMO makes a huge difference when you're changing someones shot.

I hope Jeremy does somehow become a good shooter and that this pays off for him if he can stay mentally focused on it, but as of right now, it looks ugly, and I don't see any confidence in him as a shooter when he's taking those outside shots. His release is so slow and he's mostly been taking them when he's wide, wide open. It looks like he's just trying to do what he's told (to his credit, some of these outside shots are going in for him, but he's also being left completely open and any competent NBA shooter would hit those same wide open shots). It doesn't look like he has much of a feel for shooting the ball (This is the bit I'm worried about).


The problem with Sochan 3 point shooting is his low release point, making it easy blocked. He needs to shoot like Jokic, fling it from overhead which is almost unblockable.

Perfect example of someone who doesn't have an orthodox or traditional shooting form/shot mechanics. I'd be more than happy if you shoot a good percentage and also can get your shot off like Jokic does (he may not have a super quick release, but at least he has a high release point and can get that shot off most of the time - rare exception being when Victor can get to some of his shots), this is no problem. Jeremy does shoot from a lower relese point, has a very slow shot motion and also some sort of extra slowdown in the middle. It's not even close to being a smooth shooting motion. I'm not impressed at all with the work Jimmy Baron is doing. I'm not saying it because he left as I wasn't happy when Chip left, but I would have offered him more money or a more prominent assistant coaches role if that is what it took to keep him. If he still wanted to leave even with all that, OK, fine, at least you tried.

[scott]

Jeremy's wind up on 3PA looks similar to the slow, methodical wind up for those 3-handed FTAs, so what you're saying makes sense, Ice009.

He doesn't do them as much anymore, but Jeremy used to have a pretty decent looking turnaround jumper in the paint where he kept the ball above he head as he was turning. I'm not a shooting expert, and it seems like Ice really knows what he's talking about here so I'm curious as to your further takes... but it just seems really bizarre and counterproductive for Jeremy to have so man different motions.

[SpurSpike]

Funny thing is we likely offered way more money. Wonder why he still left?

OKC offered 10 million and a seat on the bench as an assistant coach which was an offer he couldn't refuse and that the Spurs were unlikely to match. So better job title and more money pulled him away.

[Splits]

This looks to be a cumulative stat rather than a rate stat, so Sochan's bad shooting hasn't taken much off the table because he doesn't shoot that often.

Meanwhile, Keldon takes a ton of threes and is shooting terribly, same with Giannis and free throws.

yeah, from 15+ feet on the year:

Sochan is 13/47 for 27.6%
Castle is 42/157 for 26.7%
Keldumb is 35/131 for 26.7%

god those are some hideous fucking numbers

[KingKev]

OKC offered 10 million and a seat on the bench as an assistant coach which was an offer he couldn't refuse and that the Spurs were unlikely to match. So better job title and more money pulled him away.

Thanks, I didn’t know that I actually would have thought we would have taken care of someone like Chip and he just still wanted to go to a winner given all the BS going on here these days.

Either way we lost out BIG TIME.

[Ocotillo]

I wonder if the impact of a shooting coach can be overstated. The vaunted Chip did not turn Giddey into a shooter while he was under his tutelage, so maybe it has more to do with the player than the coach. Coaches can have an impact as long as said player puts in the work and has the talent to implement. OKC solved the lack of progress on Giddey's part by shipping him out rather than investing Chip's time and the salary that they would have to pay Giddey to turn him into a shooter. Nephew got his marching orders on what to do from Chip over the lock out and became a better shooter.

Maybe Sochan and Castle (shudder) are not destined to be good shooters regardless of who the coach is.

[Robz4000]

Feels like every player has gotten worse at shooting the more they have worked with him tbh.

[scott]

I wonder if the impact of a shooting coach can be overstated. The vaunted Chip did not turn Giddey into a shooter while he was under his tutelage, so maybe it has more to do with the player than the coach. Coaches can have an impact as long as said player puts in the work and has the talent to implement. OKC solved the lack of progress on Giddey's part by shipping him out rather than investing Chip's time and the salary that they would have to pay Giddey to turn him into a shooter. Nephew got his marching orders on what to do from Chip over the lock out and became a better shooter.

Maybe Sochan and Castle (shudder) are not destined to be good shooters regardless of who the coach is.

Good points, but it did make me pause for a second a consider that maybe Chip has different responsibilities in OKC? I actually don't know, but perhaps he's more of a general assistant in OKC and not just "the shooting coach" and thus the impact is different?

I think you are right though that not all players can be turned into good shooters.

[ginobilized]

I think there's hope for Castle. The shots he makes don't look unfixable. Sochan on the other hand looks like a train wreck whether it goes in or not.

Who knows what Chip actually does. Pop alluded to the fact that he had no idea what Chip did.

By year 3, I predict that Castle will be considerably better.

[spursistan]

Feels like every player has gotten worse at shooting the more they have worked with him tbh.
Feels like the brain drain that the Spurs org has suffered over the years is coming home to roost. I think maybe objective (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=4663) mentioned here how Memphis hired a bunch of Spurs scouts and have been hitting on late firsts & second rounders ever since. Spurs gave Pop the bag but most likely cheaped out on developmental/scouting budget during the treadmill era (that's what happened with Chip who got pried away by Sam Presti)

[Ice009]

Jeremy's wind up on 3PA looks similar to the slow, methodical wind up for those 3-handed FTAs, so what you're saying makes sense, Ice009.

He doesn't do them as much anymore, but Jeremy used to have a pretty decent looking turnaround jumper in the paint where he kept the ball above he head as he was turning. I'm not a shooting expert, and it seems like Ice really knows what he's talking about here so I'm curious as to your further takes... but it just seems really bizarre and counterproductive for Jeremy to have so man different motions.

I do remember that turnaround jumper of his and I agree, it was actually decent. And yeah, now that you mention it, from what little I remember, his current 3 point shot does look a little like his two handed free throws.

So the problem with me is that I never really had a problem shooting the ball (not saying I was Steph Curry or anything close). I was just a natural shooter no matter what form I had/used, I could still make the shot, so I never really had to rebuild a broken shot, I just wanted to tweak it myself. Just had a natural feel for shooting the ball. I really do think having a feel for shooting the ball makes a big difference as a player could be hitting shots with a not so good form, but then if improving/tweaking his/her form, they could be even better, but this is all provided they have a feel for shooting the ball.

Now if a guy can't shoot at all, in my opinion, the best thing to try and do is what Chip does and make small tweaks if the shot isn't completely broken/messed up. If the shot is that broken and you can't make small tweaks, then you rebuild it as close to a traditional shooting form as you can. You want it also to be a fluid, smooth shooting motion without to low of a release point that can easily be blocked either. From there, it's just going to have to be repetition. You also need to learn to shoot against defenders when you're sped up. Jeremy could hit the majority of his shots in the gym when he is unguarded and has time to shoot it, but in a game, you're always going to have to shoot quicker when the defender is closing in on you (this is where shots like his current 3 point shot break down - the accuracy goes way down in game due to his poor shooting motion and lack of feel for shooting).

I will also say in regard to TP, he may have been taking his guide hand off the ball earlier, but he also shooting midrange jumpshots a lot of the time. He never really shot many three pointers. I don't think that technique is a good one if you want to be a distance shooter. You have to leave you guide hand on a touch longer to help stabilize the ball as you're going to shoot it with more force/velocity from three point trange with it being further out. Even if he's going good shooting one handed free throws, the accuracy will go down the toilet if he were to start shooting one handed three pointers. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good tool to help learn to shot closer to the basket (mid-range), but at some point, you'll have to learn to use the guide hand properly. I just think Jeremy is messed up shooting both ways in game. He either shoots with one hand and only takes mid-range or closer jumpers, or learns to shoot with both again (including free throws) and extends out to the three point line with it.

[exstatic]

I wonder if the impact of a shooting coach can be overstated. The vaunted Chip did not turn Giddey into a shooter while he was under his tutelage, so maybe it has more to do with the player than the coach. Coaches can have an impact as long as said player puts in the work and has the talent to implement. OKC solved the lack of progress on Giddey's part by shipping him out rather than investing Chip's time and the salary that they would have to pay Giddey to turn him into a shooter. Nephew got his marching orders on what to do from Chip over the lock out and became a better shooter.

Maybe Sochan and Castle (shudder) are not destined to be good shooters regardless of who the coach is.

Ouseman Dieng also seemed not to benefit.

[Ice009]

In my opinion if you don't have some kind of feel for shooting (even just a little bit), doesn't matter how much you tweak your shot or how hard you work on it, you may never become a good shooter. Of course there are exceptions to this, but probably way more players that have never improved despite working their asses off doing whatever they can, shooting 1000 shots a day etc. I'd still encourage everyone to try, though, as you have no chance if don't at least put in all the effort you can to improve your shot, but having at least a little feel for shooting the ball increases your chances of getting better at it if you put the work in.

[Maddog]

OKC is 20th in 3 pt percentage .351
Of course they are 9th in attempts per 100 possessions

SAS is 24th at .341
Looking at the Spurs volume wise and percentage wise Castle and Keldon are the ones dragging it down
Of course it's more complicated as some like Sochan and Tre probably pass up shots