The Skunker

[Millennial_Messiah]

The Skunker

2023

Both games at home, Cully? At home?


CROFL :lmao Thread (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19320) Giuseppe (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19565) Koolaid_Man (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19058) lakaluva (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11493) history2b (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=22058) @culburn316 21_Blessings (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6981) 21_Dickings (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19136) Killakobe81 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=10786) Bynumite (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=31924)


Boiled down :::


Duncan : 5


the tired old shit bag LeBitch : 4



Let us proceed....

[Raven]

think they did the best they could, given how half the season went.

[LkrFan]

The Skunker! smells like chicken :lol

[LkrFan]

think they did the best they could, given how half the season went.

^ this. Still sucks tho :lol

[Cry Havoc]

think they did the best they could, given how half the season went.

Also this series if anything heightens LeBron's legacy and heavily damages AD's. LeBron put up god-tier numbers, arguably one of the greatest post-seasons ever by a 38+ year old. It just wasn't enough because the Lakers outside of LeBron have been terrible for ages.

[Tyronn Lue]

They are spinning like an overachievement that the Lakers reached the WCF given where they were just a few weeks before the playoffs began, however I think they underachieved all year and just begin to care late in the season when they realized they were going to make the playoffs. Anthony Davis and Lebron James on the floor at the same time, that should not end in them being swept by Denver.

[Tyronn Lue]

Also this series if anything heightens LeBron's legacy and heavily damages AD's. LeBron put up god-tier numbers, arguably one of the greatest post-seasons ever by a 38+ year old. It just wasn't enough because the Lakers outside of LeBron have been terrible for ages.
AD doesn't really have much of a legacy to damage. He's an All Star game performer who doesn't bring it when it matters.

[Chris Fall]

Right. As a talent, AD had the potential of an all timer. But he's merely been a pretty good, sometimes really good, player in his career outside a couple of great playoff performances in New Orleans against Portland in the first round. Definitely a second tier star. Reminds me a bit of Kevin Garnett, but KG was at least consistently leading those Minny teams to the playoffs, even if they never did anything.

[koriwhat]

think they did the best they could, given how half the season went.

I hate the Lakers and Lebron but damn they went above and beyond in the playoffs. Towards the end of the season I thought they'd miss out on the PO and be a middle of the pack team.

[The Gemini Method]

There are no moral victories. I mean, where the season started and the malaise of the Westbrook period, it was a season in which was up and down from Feb 9th. I wasn't delusional enough to think we'd win it all, but in a weird West, they made a nice run. When you biggest fear is seeing if your two best players will make it the 3 month sprint to the Finals w/o getting hurt, you're on thin ice. AD hasn't been consistent since 2020. Not that he was really halcyon back then either as he ebbed and flowed through the bubble run and ran roughshod over the youthful Nuggets team. Not winning Game 1/2 sunk the feel good story, but the franchise doesn't count WCF appearances. However, it was nice having relevant bball in April/May for a change.

[Millennial_Messiah]

think they did the best they could, given how half the season went.

Same could be said about the 2010 Spurs

The Laker residents of this website couldn't stop giving us shit over The Skunker for years, despite the fact that that was the worst Spurs team (50-32) in the entire Duncan era, so now I'm pushing in their own shit. :tu

Do unto others as others do unto you. No mercy

[Obstructed_View]

Remember when the Lakers fans were saying AD was better than Duncan and Robinson?

[LkrFan]

They are spinning like an overachievement that the Lakers reached the WCF given where they were just a few weeks before the playoffs began, however I think they underachieved all year and just begin to care late in the season when they realized they were going to make the playoffs. Anthony Davis and Lebron James on the floor at the same time, that should not end in them being swept by Denver.
Started 2-10. Had a 0.3% chance to even make the play-in.

Yeah, it sucks to see them get swept...but it was better than the alternative if we didn't trade det LA native :lol

We move. :tu

[ambchang]

Lakers made some good moves that o my the lakers can make. Like trading away westbrick without giving up significant capital or getting rui for nothing. The other small market teams have to do it or they would be labelled as unreasonable.

[LkrFan]

Lakers made some good moves that o my the lakers can make. Like trading away westbrick without giving up significant capital or getting rui for nothing. The other small market teams have to do it or they would be labelled as unreasonable.

My ideal Lakers offseason:

1) Re-sign Austin Reaves

2) Re-sign my pet cat Rui

3) S&T D'Lo/Beasley/#17 for Killa

4) Re-sign Mo Bamba (cheaply)

5) Execute Vando's option

6) Re-sign Dennis to back up Killa

7) Bring back Stanley Johnson

Then run it back. AD and Killa can dominate the regular season, making Bron a 3rd option. Bron can coast until the playoffs come back around. :tu

[JamStone]

Financially not possible to make all those moves and still sign Kyrie unless you think he’s signing with the Lakers for the MLE. Hell, they couldn’t do all those things if Kyrie accepted just $20 million per. They’ll be hard pressed to keep just Reaves and sign Kyrie, even if they got rid of everybody else except LeBron and Davis. I guess we’ll see what considerations Kyrie and guys like Reaves and Rui are willing to make.

I think they’d be better off not even considering Kyrie. And then looking at cheaper options who may end up playing up with more minutes and playing with James, Davis. I think they need to add a cheap big to help defend the likes of Jokic, someone like Plumlee who has good knowledge of Joker. And they need a guard who can shoot and defend with some PG abilities. Someone like Coby White, who I’ve felt for a while could be a really good starter in the league if given the opportunity and more minutes.

[Cry Havoc]

Financially not possible to make all those moves and still sign Kyrie unless you think he’s signing with the Lakers for the MLE. Hell, they couldn’t do all those things if Kyrie accepted just $20 million per. They’ll be hard pressed to keep just Reaves and sign Kyrie, even if they got rid of everybody else except LeBron and Davis. I guess we’ll see what considerations Kyrie and guys like Reaves and Rui are willing to make.

I think they’d be better off not even considering Kyrie. And then looking at cheaper options who may end up playing up with more minutes and playing with James, Davis. I think they need to add a cheap big to help defend the likes of Jokic, someone like Plumlee who has good knowledge of Joker. And they need a guard who can shoot and defend with some PG abilities. Someone like Coby White, who I’ve felt for a while could be a really good starter in the league if given the opportunity and more minutes.

It's interesting with the new salary cap structure -- teams are going to have to seriously think about who they want to invest in, because it's much easier to get punished for overpaying a player and getting "locked" into a contract where you simply cannot throw extra money at another guy because of cap restraints.

The only saving grace for these teams is that expirings are still highly coveted as a way to make cap room fast. But I wouldn't be surprised to see teams struggling with cap space, even as it increases. Mid/high level guys are still overpaid relative to their value on the team (since a young borderline all-star level guy can always go out and find someone to pay him the max if not close to it).

Someone like Rui, who showed a ton of promise and good range, should be able to command an impressive salary on the open market right now. Someone is going to take a potshot at him. The Lakers have bird rights but it'll still hurt them to pay him what he's going to get offered elsewhere.

I'm betting someone offers Rui a 3-4 year deal worth 55-70 million. A 25 year old potential breakout two way PF who can defend pretty well and hit shots is going to entice a lot of teams. I expect the Lakers will match it, but it might make it more difficult to go out and get other guys.

[Millennial_Messiah]

:lol at the idea Kyrie would sign with the Lakers for the MLE

[Mugen]

I don't ever want to hear AD being mentioned in Timmy's stratosphere ever again tbh

[Cry Havoc]

I don't ever want to hear AD being mentioned in Timmy's stratosphere ever again tbh

AD shouldn't be mentioned in the top 25 stratosphere. He's a perennial underperformer who had a few good seasons. Dude isn't even close to KG's level to say nothing of Timmy's.

[JamStone]

AD is not Duncan or KG. But I don’t think it’s wrong or disrespectful to compare him to either of them, even if he is not necessarily in the same class. Sometimes, people look at accomplishments, specifically championships and team success, and make that a significant separater between players, when most of us basketball junkies know and acknowledge that championships not only don’t simply belong to the one individual star player, but it requires an entire team and organizational effort. That’s why Bulls fans lament the pre Phil and Scottie Bulls. That’s why some (I’d like to say most but haters gonna hate) fans understand why LeBron took his talents to South Beach. That’s why damn near every other starter on Russell Celtics also made it to the Hall of Fame. It’s not a one-on-one tournament. It’s a team game. Championships are a team accomplishment.

Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. He doesn’t have the same team success as the franchise player, not the same MVP consideration or championship rings. But on just talent, he’s there. Championship pedigree, team success, sure, he gets moved down to the kiddie table. But as the franchise player, he was sleepwalking 28/12 and 2+ blocks. In the playoffs in New Orleans, he upped his production to 30 and 12 on 52%+ shooting. He was a stud. And then injuries and deferring to LeBron the last four years has gotten everyone thinking and saying he’s not that great. No, dude is still great. He’s just not Tim Duncan great, not even Kevin Garnett great. And that’s no shame.

[Spurs Homer]

AD is not Duncan or KG. But I don’t think it’s wrong or disrespectful to compare him to either of them, even if he is not necessarily in the same class. Sometimes, people look at accomplishments, specifically championships and team success, and make that a significant separater between players, when most of us basketball junkies know and acknowledge that championships not only don’t simply belong to the one individual star player, but it requires an entire team and organizational effort. That’s why Bulls fans lament the pre Phil and Scottie Bulls. That’s why some (I’d like to say most but haters gonna hate) fans understand why LeBron took his talents to South Beach. That’s why damn near every other starter on Russell Celtics also made it to the Hall of Fame. It’s not a one-on-one tournament. It’s a team game. Championships are a team accomplishment.

Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. He doesn’t have the same team success as the franchise player, not the same MVP consideration or championship rings. But on just talent, he’s there. Championship pedigree, team success, sure, he gets moved down to the kiddie table. But as the franchise player, he was sleepwalking 28/12 and 2+ blocks. In the playoffs in New Orleans, he upped his production to 30 and 12 on 52%+ shooting. He was a stud. And then injuries and deferring to LeBron the last four years has gotten everyone thinking and saying he’s not that great. No, dude is still great. He’s just not Tim Duncan great, not even Kevin Garnett great. And that’s no shame.

mental midget and a china doll = NOT in TD or KG’s level

[JamStone]

China doll is absolutely fair. Don’t agree that he’s a mental midget. Certainly not an alpha or a closer. And he can be inconsistent. But I don’t believe that makes him mentally soft.

Houston Rockets James Harden. Now that to me is a mental midget to a tee. Even as critical as people were of Tatum in game 3 for quitting, being mentally weak, game 7 of the Philly series and game 4 to stave off the sweep show that a player can have moments of both mental weakness and mental toughness. I’ve even seen Tim Duncan broken down and dejected in the playoffs before, multiple times. None of the greats have unblemished resumes. And none wear a Teflon vest.

[Millennial_Messiah]

China doll is absolutely fair. Don’t agree that he’s a mental midget. Certainly not an alpha or a closer. And he can be inconsistent. But I don’t believe that makes him mentally soft.

Houston Rockets James Harden. Now that to me is a mental midget to a tee. Even as critical as people were of Tatum in game 3 for quitting, being mentally weak, game 7 of the Philly series and game 4 to stave off the sweep show that a player can have moments of both mental weakness and mental toughness. I’ve even seen Tim Duncan broken down and dejected in the playoffs before, multiple times. None of the greats have unblemished resumes. And none wear a Teflon vest.

????

He was visibly upset and dejected after missing the layup in Game 7 2013 at the end, but it's not like we got blown out or something, of the series or the game. It was just a horrifically frustrating way to end the one and only one opportunity to redeem ourselves from 6 and Duncan's miss over 6'7" Battier was the nail in the coffin.

The only other argument you can make is the three years in between 1999 and 2003 years where Duncan three years in a row lost in the playoffs, the first time being in street clothes with the bum knee, the second time I'll admit he was a bit embarrassed but the Spurs were way outmatched that year; and the third time again showed that the Spurs needed to make significant changes on the roster to beat LA. Duncan was great in '02 but couldn't do it literally by himself and it was painfully obvious by that point David Robinson was beyond finished as a #2 option.

[LkrFan]

I don't ever want to hear AD being mentioned in Timmy's stratosphere ever again tbh
Agreed. AD is in the Dirk/KG/Mailman/C-Webb tier.

[ambchang]

AD is not Duncan or KG. But I don’t think it’s wrong or disrespectful to compare him to either of them, even if he is not necessarily in the same class. Sometimes, people look at accomplishments, specifically championships and team success, and make that a significant separater between players, when most of us basketball junkies know and acknowledge that championships not only don’t simply belong to the one individual star player, but it requires an entire team and organizational effort. That’s why Bulls fans lament the pre Phil and Scottie Bulls. That’s why some (I’d like to say most but haters gonna hate) fans understand why LeBron took his talents to South Beach. That’s why damn near every other starter on Russell Celtics also made it to the Hall of Fame. It’s not a one-on-one tournament. It’s a team game. Championships are a team accomplishment.

Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. He doesn’t have the same team success as the franchise player, not the same MVP consideration or championship rings. But on just talent, he’s there. Championship pedigree, team success, sure, he gets moved down to the kiddie table. But as the franchise player, he was sleepwalking 28/12 and 2+ blocks. In the playoffs in New Orleans, he upped his production to 30 and 12 on 52%+ shooting. He was a stud. And then injuries and deferring to LeBron the last four years has gotten everyone thinking and saying he’s not that great. No, dude is still great. He’s just not Tim Duncan great, not even Kevin Garnett great. And that’s no shame.

You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.

[ambchang]

Agreed. AD is in the Dirk/KG/Mailman/C-Webb tier.

No, just no for the bolded.

[benefactor]

You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.
Rasheed Wallace is arguably a top three most talented big man ever to pick up a basketball. His brain was his problem

[Bill_Brasky]

The Lakers ran into a buzz saw. Each game was competitive, and then Denver would put them away easily in the 4th quarter. The shots that Jokic was hitting was just like come on now.

Still a Skunker either way.....

[TD 21]

AD is not Duncan or KG. But I don’t think it’s wrong or disrespectful to compare him to either of them, even if he is not necessarily in the same class. Sometimes, people look at accomplishments, specifically championships and team success, and make that a significant separater between players, when most of us basketball junkies know and acknowledge that championships not only don’t simply belong to the one individual star player, but it requires an entire team and organizational effort. That’s why Bulls fans lament the pre Phil and Scottie Bulls. That’s why some (I’d like to say most but haters gonna hate) fans understand why LeBron took his talents to South Beach. That’s why damn near every other starter on Russell Celtics also made it to the Hall of Fame. It’s not a one-on-one tournament. It’s a team game. Championships are a team accomplishment.

Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett. He doesn’t have the same team success as the franchise player, not the same MVP consideration or championship rings. But on just talent, he’s there. Championship pedigree, team success, sure, he gets moved down to the kiddie table. But as the franchise player, he was sleepwalking 28/12 and 2+ blocks. In the playoffs in New Orleans, he upped his production to 30 and 12 on 52%+ shooting. He was a stud. And then injuries and deferring to LeBron the last four years has gotten everyone thinking and saying he’s not that great. No, dude is still great. He’s just not Tim Duncan great, not even Kevin Garnett great. And that’s no shame.

Probably the most inexplicably, incessantly criticized player extant. I don't get it for the life of me. More likeable than most of the divas today, often plays hurt and has tried to play through injuries, is willing to do the non glamor work and defer offensively (although the latter has become an issue) and generally raises his game in the playoffs.

Of course his precious ppg fluctuates on a team with four perimeter creators, naturally plummeting his usage rate. He's also not back to the basket based and any big man who isn't can't be the hub of an offense on a championship contender. That makes him more Robinson and Garnett than Olajuwon and Duncan. What a crime.

[JamStone]

????

He was visibly upset and dejected after missing the layup in Game 7 2013 at the end, but it's not like we got blown out or something, of the series or the game. It was just a horrifically frustrating way to end the one and only one opportunity to redeem ourselves from 6 and Duncan's miss over 6'7" Battier was the nail in the coffin.

The only other argument you can make is the three years in between 1999 and 2003 years where Duncan three years in a row lost in the playoffs, the first time being in street clothes with the bum knee, the second time I'll admit he was a bit embarrassed but the Spurs were way outmatched that year; and the third time again showed that the Spurs needed to make significant changes on the roster to beat LA. Duncan was great in '02 but couldn't do it literally by himself and it was painfully obvious by that point David Robinson was beyond finished as a #2 option.

Yeah, one of the series against the Lakers when they got swept I think, where Tim and really all the Spurs couldn’t even put up a fight. Think they got blown out the last couple games because they were admitting defeat before the series was even really over. Tim was already the star. Admitting defeat before defeat happens is mentally weak.

The Spurs-Pistons finals which most of us on these boards are intimately familiar. I believe it was after game 4 and the Pistons returned the favor of two lopsided wins. It’s vaguely in my memory that Pop was sitting next to and trying to console an inconsolable Tim because he had no answers after getting flustered by the Wallace brothers. It’s not as memorable to you because the Spurs ended up winning the series. Horry for game 5 and Manu in game 7 stepped up. It’s not that Tim didn’t put up numbers, but he was clearly and visibly dejected after game 4 and needed his teammates to pick him up.

Then there was the Phoenix series when Amare was giving Tim the business, raw no condom. I mean, Tim might as well have bent over on defense. Tim already a multiple time champ, two time MVP, all defensive guy still in his prime getting worked by a young buck. Again masked by the fact the Spurs won the series.

And as you already mentioned the missed layup, so I’ll also mention the first round upset against the Grizz when an old man Duncan couldn’t get it up to match up with old man game Zach Randolph. Tim had already relinquished keys to the team to Tony by that time, and age and wear and tear had gotten to him. And he couldn’t do what some of the greats have been able to do late in their careers and find a way to bring it. I don’t remember if he looked sad or dejected in that particular series loss, but it’s an example of a series he could be criticized for not being mentally tough enough.

Those instances are few and some masked by the fact they still won the series. But Tim still has had his tough performances and ones that could have been justifiably criticized. However, because he also won his share and stepped up in his share of big games and series, Spurs fans particularly aren’t going to dwell on those.

[RC_Drunkford]

Agreed. AD is in the Lamar Odom/Antonio McDyess/Amare Stoudamire tier.

FIFY

[JamStone]

You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.

I think the difference is that Rasheed never cared if he was great or not. Even all the way back in high school, he asked to sit entire second halves of blowout games so his teammates could get more playing time and more touches. He’s always seemingly put team first. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a bad thing. But he didn’t want to be great, he didn’t need to be great. And all time greats need to have at least a little bit of selfishness in order to be great.

Sheed never put up regular seasons or playoff performances that Anthony Davis has. Anthony Davis has put up all NBA seasons. He’s put up great playoff numbers. Sheed was always content with playing second, third, or even fourth fiddle. Anthony Davis is closer to Tim Duncan and KG than he is to Sheed. And Sheed is closer to Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom than is to Anthony Davis.

[Bill_Brasky]

Probably the most inexplicably, incessantly criticized player extant. I don't get it for the life of me. More likeable than most of the divas today, often plays hurt and has tried to play through injuries, is willing to do the non glamor work and defer offensively (although the latter has become an issue) and generally raises his game in the playoffs.

Of course his precious ppg fluctuates on a team with four perimeter creators, naturally plummeting his usage rate. He's also not back to the basket based and any big man who isn't can't be the hub of an offense on a championship contender. That makes him more Robinson and Garnett than Olajuwon and Duncan. What a crime.

I think for me it's the injury-proneness of AD that holds me back from saying he's on TD or Garnett's level. Those dudes just were a little more durable. But it's undeniable that when you watch AD play basketball, he is dominant every night on the defensive end, with a surprisingly good offensive game. Better than he gets credit for.

[ambchang]

I think the difference is that Rasheed never cared if he was great or not. Even all the way back in high school, he asked to sit entire second halves of blowout games so his teammates could get more playing time and more touches. He’s always seemingly put team first. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a bad thing. But he didn’t want to be great, he didn’t need to be great. And all time greats need to have at least a little bit of selfishness in order to be great.

Sheed never put up regular seasons or playoff performances that Anthony Davis has. Anthony Davis has put up all NBA seasons. He’s put up great playoff numbers. Sheed was always content with playing second, third, or even fourth fiddle. Anthony Davis is closer to Tim Duncan and KG than he is to Sheed. And Sheed is closer to Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom than is to Anthony Davis.

Maybe I am romanticizing the past, but I think Sheed has always been closer to the KGs and Duncans than he was to the Odoms and Martins, he, to me, is in the same tier as C-Webb, who was a mighty fine player. But then, I love Sheed, still one of my non-Spurs player of all time. The way he could post up, shoot, dribble facilitate, and most of all defend was just amazing. I always felt he was a better defender than Ben Wallace, who was putting up those crazy block and rebound numbers, but Sheeds rotations and help defense, as well as his man to man defence was just divine.

Most people hate him because he mouths off, but I felt he was more misunderstood than anything. His "both teams played hard" and "ball don't lie" phrases just put him in God like status.

[JamStone]

Maybe I am romanticizing the past, but I think Sheed has always been closer to the KGs and Duncans than he was to the Odoms and Martins, he, to me, is in the same tier as C-Webb, who was a mighty fine player. But then, I love Sheed, still one of my non-Spurs player of all time. The way he could post up, shoot, dribble facilitate, and most of all defend was just amazing. I always felt he was a better defender than Ben Wallace, who was putting up those crazy block and rebound numbers, but Sheeds rotations and help defense, as well as his man to man defence was just divine.

Most people hate him because he mouths off, but I felt he was more misunderstood than anything. His "both teams played hard" and "ball don't lie" phrases just put him in God like status.

I guess perception is subjective. Just like MVP debates, depends what your criteria is.

People differentiate Davis from Tim and KG because Davis couldn’t lead successful teams like they did, not as the clear cut franchise player. Pretty similar difference, in fact, between Tim and KG because Tim’s team successes clearly outshined KG’s. And this goes back to my point about team success is more than just credit to the individual franchise star. Winning, and winning rings, is a team accomplishment. Successful teams are more than just the franchise star.

And so when I spoke about Davis being at the same table as Tim and KG when it comes to individual talent, I say that because of what he has done individually, with his production and what he’s been able to do throughoit a season, season after season in his career. Rasheed may have had similar talent to KG and Tim, but he never produced at that level, certainly not consistently, not for seasons, not even for a single season. Never had a 20 PPG season or a 10 RPG season. No all NBA seasons, no all defensive teams. His one great statistical post season was a first round sweep by the Lakers where he played just three games. His actual individual production never met that elite talent level. I don’t think you can say the same for Davis. Maybe you want more from him. Maybe you wish he was an alpha or a clutch closer. But dude was still putting up great seasons, great playoff performances. He was meeting his talent potential. Just not exceeding it, or maximizing it the way a Tim Duncan did for much of his career.

I love Rasheed. I’m a Pistons fan. One of my favorite Pistons player all time. His jersey is the only Pistons jersey I’ve ever owned. Truth. But he was never in the class of Tim or KG. He could compete with them. Maybe even outplay them in a game. But he wasn’t their peer. And he really didn’t care that he wasn’t. Dirk and CWebb were closer to Tim and KG than Sheed ever was.

That’s why I can comfortably believe and say Davis is closer to Tim and KG than Sheed is, and Sheed is closer to KMart and Odom than he is to Davis. The individual production proves that.

[LkrFan]

FIFY
:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Davis is KG sans the durability & leadership

[LittleCriminal]

The Skunker

2023

Both games at home, Cully? At home?


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Boiled down :::


Duncan : 5


the tired old shit bag LeBitch : 4



Let us proceed....

Honestly how many chips would LJ have if ALLEN and Irving did not hit those Final shots?? Answer is 2.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Honestly how many chips would LJ have if ALLEN and Irving did not hit those Final shots?? Answer is 2.

yup

To be fair though, less than a coin flip chance we win both games vs. Detroit if Big Shot Bob doesn't make that three in '05 and Detroit gets the rebound... THOUGH I will say that game probably should not have gone to OT because Rasheed Wallace should have been whistled for a technical foul (non-conduct) for calling timeout with 0.3 seconds on the clock and Detroit having had zero timeouts remaining. Manu would have been the FT shooter and despite being a career 78%, he was money that series.

Specific shots turn tides... 2014 had multiple. Bobo's three in game 4 must-win @ Dallas to tie the series. Manu's three @ OKC in regulation, game 6..... 2003 also had some near misses, and more than just Small Shot Bob's three rattling out. Manu's three vs. Phoenix with a minute left in game 2, to increase the lead from 1 to 4, when we were already down 1-0 comes to mind. Hell, Danny Ferry's three in the same game when we were on the verge of that game getting away from us midway thru the 4th. If the Suns win that game, they win the series. Tony Parker's threes and Manu's clutch shot at the end of the comeback game 3 @ the Nets with the series tied 1-1. Not sure the Spurs win in 6 if we go down 2-1. And of course the Jackson/Kerr/Manu three point barrage @ Dallas game 6... 2007 IMO the biggest near-miss was Bowen's three @ Phoenix in game 5, not sure we win the championship if he misses that shot.

1999 IMO there weren't really any near misses. Sure if AJ misses that shot we probably lose to the Knicks, but it's still 3-2 headed back home and we would have beaten them handily back home at the Alamodome.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, one of the series against the Lakers when they got swept I think, where Tim and really all the Spurs couldn’t even put up a fight. Think they got blown out the last couple games because they were admitting defeat before the series was even really over. Tim was already the star. Admitting defeat before defeat happens is mentally weak.

The Spurs-Pistons finals which most of us on these boards are intimately familiar. I believe it was after game 4 and the Pistons returned the favor of two lopsided wins. It’s vaguely in my memory that Pop was sitting next to and trying to console an inconsolable Tim because he had no answers after getting flustered by the Wallace brothers. It’s not as memorable to you because the Spurs ended up winning the series. Horry for game 5 and Manu in game 7 stepped up. It’s not that Tim didn’t put up numbers, but he was clearly and visibly dejected after game 4 and needed his teammates to pick him up.

Then there was the Phoenix series when Amare was giving Tim the business, raw no condom. I mean, Tim might as well have bent over on defense. Tim already a multiple time champ, two time MVP, all defensive guy still in his prime getting worked by a young buck. Again masked by the fact the Spurs won the series.

And as you already mentioned the missed layup, so I’ll also mention the first round upset against the Grizz when an old man Duncan couldn’t get it up to match up with old man game Zach Randolph. Tim had already relinquished keys to the team to Tony by that time, and age and wear and tear had gotten to him. And he couldn’t do what some of the greats have been able to do late in their careers and find a way to bring it. I don’t remember if he looked sad or dejected in that particular series loss, but it’s an example of a series he could be criticized for not being mentally tough enough.

Those instances are few and some masked by the fact they still won the series. But Tim still has had his tough performances and ones that could have been justifiably criticized. However, because he also won his share and stepped up in his share of big games and series, Spurs fans particularly aren’t going to dwell on those.

When the Spurs got swept, their second leading scorer was on the bench with a separated shoulder. When the Spurs best the Suns, the strategy was to let aamare score as much as he wanted.

Don't rewrite Spurs history on a Spurs board, Jam.

[JamStone]

When the Spurs got swept, their second leading scorer was on the bench with a separated shoulder. When the Spurs best the Suns, the strategy was to let aamare score as much as he wanted.

Don't rewrite Spurs history on a Spurs board, Jam.

Not rewriting history. More recalling history from a different, outside perspective other than home t am fan. There’s bias on my part, just as there’s bias from yours.

I wasn’t criticizing Tim for getting swept, or losing. Everybody loses at some point. I was criticizing him giving up in games 3 and 4, conceding defeat. Came to play in the first two games. Knew they couldn’t beat them that year. Sleepwalked in the next two games. You can give all the reasons in the world why they lost. The criticism is about not fighting and conceding defeat. LeBron just got swept. He didn’t go out like Tim in his sweep.

As for the Suns, lol. You would know better what the Spurs strategy was against the Suns. And if you say the plan was to make Amare beat them, I’ll take your word for it. But if you’re telling me Pop and Duncan discussed and wanted Amare to violate and undress Duncan to the point that it made it seem like Tim never learned or knew how to play defense, then I’m calling bullshit. That’s not a strategy, even if the Spurs won the series.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Not rewriting history. More recalling history from a different, outside perspective other than home t am fan. There’s bias on my part, just as there’s bias from yours.

I wasn’t criticizing Tim for getting swept, or losing. Everybody loses at some point. I was criticizing him giving up in games 3 and 4, conceding defeat. Came to play in the first two games. Knew they couldn’t beat them that year. Sleepwalked in the next two games. You can give all the reasons in the world why they lost. The criticism is about not fighting and conceding defeat. LeBron just got swept. He didn’t go out like Tim in his sweep.

As for the Suns, lol. You would know better what the Spurs strategy was against the Suns. And if you say the plan was to make Amare beat them, I’ll take your word for it. But if you’re telling me Pop and Duncan discussed and wanted Amare to violate and undress Duncan to the point that it made it seem like Tim never learned or knew how to play defense, then I’m calling bullshit. That’s not a strategy, even if the Spurs won the series.

Amare "violated" Nazr fucking Mohammed, Horry, and occasionally Rasho... not Timmy. You're stupid if you think Pop would want Timmy getting in foul trouble considering prime Amare drew tons of fouls at the rim.


When the Spurs got swept, their second leading scorer was on the bench with a separated shoulder. When the Spurs best the Suns, the strategy was to let [Stoudemire] score as much as he wanted.

Don't rewrite Spurs history on a Spurs board, Jam.
100 fucking percent.

Derek Anderson was no prime Manu, but he was quite literally the only thing we had on offense outside of the twin towers and our best perimeter defender as well even though he was no Bowen. Without him our backcourt collapsed into a mish mash of undersized wings and guards trying to play wing like Antonio Daniels, Terry Porter, etc. And AJ, stout as he was, couldn't shoot. It was lopsided and hardly Tim's fault.

[Extra Stout]

As for the Suns, lol. You would know better what the Spurs strategy was against the Suns. And if you say the plan was to make Amare beat them, I’ll take your word for it. But if you’re telling me Pop and Duncan discussed and wanted Amare to violate and undress Duncan to the point that it made it seem like Tim never learned or knew how to play defense, then I’m calling bullshit. That’s not a strategy, even if the Spurs won the series.
The strategy was to contain Nash and stop the Suns’ 3-point barrage. That meant they couldn’t collapse on Amare in the paint, and had to let him eat. It worked though — the series was 4-1 and twice Phoenix didn’t even get to 100.

[JamStone]

You guys are giving reasons and excuses why Tim gave up against the Lakers. The excuses are legitimate. I’m not arguing against them. He still quit in games 3 and 4. That's the point. Doesn’t matter the reason or if you as fans feel he was justified. He came to play in the first two games, mailed it in the last two. The whole point was to say even the greatest players all time have had their moments of not just failure but of what some people criticize of Anthony Davis as mental weakness. That’s how this discussion came about. Idc about Sean Elliot or Derek Anderson or the rest of the roster being crap. Tim conceded defeat in that series when it wasn’t even close to being over. And it’s fine because he’s come up big so many other times, times that ended up in rings. This was to show that some of the criticisms of Anthony Davis being a mental midget is overly harsh. All players, even the greats, have their good days and bad days.

As for the Suns series, whatever you want to say about that “strategy,” keep convincing yourself. They were trying to contain Nash to 23 points, 11 assists on 52% shooting? Strategy to contain their three point shooting when the Suns three main wing shooters shot 27-for-56 for 48% and as a team shot 41%? That strategy? Horseshit. They won the series because they could keep pace and ultimately outscore them. Their plan was to let Amare eat to contain Nash and the three point shooting and they were successful at neither. WTH kind of rose colored koolaid are you guys drinking?

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs won those series. You're a bitter revisionist acting like Amare emasculated Tim Duncan in some way. The Suns lost. Amare's stats were empty.

[RC_Drunkford]

You guys are giving reasons and excuses why Tim gave up against the Lakers. The excuses are legitimate. I’m not arguing against them. He still quit in games 3 and 4. That's the point. Doesn’t matter the reason or if you as fans feel he was justified. He came to play in the first two games, mailed it in the last two. The whole point was to say even the greatest players all time have had their moments of not just failure but of what some people criticize of Anthony Davis as mental weakness. That’s how this discussion came about. Idc about Sean Elliot or Derek Anderson or the rest of the roster being crap. Tim conceded defeat in that series when it wasn’t even close to being over. And it’s fine because he’s come up big so many other times, times that ended up in rings. This was to show that some of the criticisms of Anthony Davis being a mental midget is overly harsh. All players, even the greats, have their good days and bad days.

As for the Suns series, whatever you want to say about that “strategy,” keep convincing yourself. They were trying to contain Nash to 23 points, 11 assists on 52% shooting? Strategy to contain their three point shooting when the Suns three main wing shooters shot 27-for-56 for 48% and as a team shot 41%? That strategy? Horseshit. They won the series because they could keep pace and ultimately outscore them. Their plan was to let Amare eat to contain Nash and the three point shooting and they were successful at neither. WTH kind of rose colored koolaid are you guys drinking?

somebody's really pissed about the 5th pick :lmao

[Extra Stout]

Look at the 3-point shots attempted. The Suns averaged 24 3-point attempts per game in 2004-05 at a 39.3% clip. The Spurs kept them well below that.

[Obstructed_View]

somebody's really pissed about the 5th pick :lmao
Oh yeah. Salty about getting out tanked. :lol

[Millennial_Messiah]

Rasheed Wallace is arguably a top three most talented big man ever to pick up a basketball. His brain was his problem

He was actually an above average intelligence man and a genuinely good person >90% of the time. He just had a short temper and a propensity to go off the deep end and throw temper tantrums when multiple things in a row didn't go his way. Had a competitive spirit that came with rage and audacity. Liked the guy and would have been an awesome Spur. Different from say a Dennis Rodman who was just fucked up in the head in all kinds of ways, or Ron Artest who was just a calculated sociopath 50% of the time and a fake nice guy the other 50%.

Rasheed (not Ben) Wallace actually tried to stop the Malice at the Palace in the early stages when Artest, Jackson, Ben Wallace, and Derrick Coleman were fighting.


You can argue the same for Rasheed. Who, I still think, had all the talent to be an all time great. Guy was too unselfish.
Agreed. Too unselfish at times and had the tendency to chuck too many threes when the refs were in "let them play" mode (i.e. not calling fouls in the paint)... (and cost the team with untimely technical fouls).

But 'Sheed rarely committed flagrant fouls and didn't do the off the court shit.

[Obstructed_View]

Rasheed didn't want to be a team leader or a superstar. So he skated by on his talent. He had enough to skate by on.

[TDfan2007]

Yeah, one of the series against the Lakers when they got swept I think, where Tim and really all the Spurs couldn’t even put up a fight. Think they got blown out the last couple games because they were admitting defeat before the series was even really over. Tim was already the star. Admitting defeat before defeat happens is mentally weak.

The Spurs-Pistons finals which most of us on these boards are intimately familiar. I believe it was after game 4 and the Pistons returned the favor of two lopsided wins. It’s vaguely in my memory that Pop was sitting next to and trying to console an inconsolable Tim because he had no answers after getting flustered by the Wallace brothers. It’s not as memorable to you because the Spurs ended up winning the series. Horry for game 5 and Manu in game 7 stepped up. It’s not that Tim didn’t put up numbers, but he was clearly and visibly dejected after game 4 and needed his teammates to pick him up.

Then there was the Phoenix series when Amare was giving Tim the business, raw no condom. I mean, Tim might as well have bent over on defense. Tim already a multiple time champ, two time MVP, all defensive guy still in his prime getting worked by a young buck. Again masked by the fact the Spurs won the series.

And as you already mentioned the missed layup, so I’ll also mention the first round upset against the Grizz when an old man Duncan couldn’t get it up to match up with old man game Zach Randolph. Tim had already relinquished keys to the team to Tony by that time, and age and wear and tear had gotten to him. And he couldn’t do what some of the greats have been able to do late in their careers and find a way to bring it. I don’t remember if he looked sad or dejected in that particular series loss, but it’s an example of a series he could be criticized for not being mentally tough enough.

Those instances are few and some masked by the fact they still won the series. But Tim still has had his tough performances and ones that could have been justifiably criticized. However, because he also won his share and stepped up in his share of big games and series, Spurs fans particularly aren’t going to dwell on those.

The way the spurs rolled over in that 2001 series was inexcusable, and Tim played a large role in that. He was pretty good in game 1, great in game 2, then totally disappeared in LA. This was after destroying KG and Dirk I’m back to back series, so he had no excuse for folding the way he did.

05 against the Pistons in game 4, I’ll give him a pass because he was playing on 2 bad ankles against arguably the greatest defensive frontcourt ever. He redeemed himself with a solid game 5 outside of free throws, and a great game 7, and we won the series lol.

05 against Amare was tough. Amare gave Timmy the business, but he was killing everyone in that series, and Timmy gave it right back to him averaging 27 pts, 14 rbs 3 ast 2 blk on 53% shooting…again on 2 bum ankles. Amare was incredible, but I wouldn’t say that was a stain on Timmy in any way, especially since the spurs destroyed Phoenix in that series lol.

Tbh the other major playoff series where Timmy (and mostly pop) came short was the backcourt sweep against the lakers in 04. Timmy was bad in games 3, 4, and 6, especially in second halves. And neither he or pop adjusted to Phil’s defense to shadow him at almost all times with a guard in the post. That 04 series is the one time as a fan of his that I felt let down (never saw 01 thank goodness).

[TDfan2007]

And Jam, I think overall your point is that all great players have poor games or even series in the playoffs. I totally agree with that. The thing that distinguishes the greatest players from the pack imo is an overall ability to consistently elevate your game in the playoffs in a way that drives team success. AD is not that guy, mainly because he lacks consistency and competitive fire, relatively speaking of course.

He’s definitely better than Rasheed though lol

[ezau]

The Nuggets have never skunked a team until they faced the Lakers and it all happened under LeSwept's watch. :lol

[Millennial_Messiah]

The Nuggets have never skunked a team until they faced the Lakers and it all happened under LeSwept's watch. :lol

Yup. They couldn't even do it to Katelyn Faber's boy toy. :lol

:lmao Beijing LeBitch

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think the difference is that Rasheed never cared if he was great or not. Even all the way back in high school, he asked to sit entire second halves of blowout games so his teammates could get more playing time and more touches. He’s always seemingly put team first. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a bad thing. But he didn’t want to be great, he didn’t need to be great. And all time greats need to have at least a little bit of selfishness in order to be great.

Sheed never put up regular seasons or playoff performances that Anthony Davis has. Anthony Davis has put up all NBA seasons. He’s put up great playoff numbers. Sheed was always content with playing second, third, or even fourth fiddle. Anthony Davis is closer to Tim Duncan and KG than he is to Sheed. And Sheed is closer to Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom than is to Anthony Davis.

He's got rings. I am sure he can live with himself.

[Millennial_Messiah]

He's got rings. I am sure he can live with himself.

Rasheed has one singular ring (2004). He narrowly missed out in 2000, 2005, and 2010.

Anthony Davis has only a Mickey Mouse ring of the Disney bubble exhibition tournament of 2020 which is worth a souvenir ring you get your 6 year old at a Disney theme park there in Orlando.

[FrostKing]

I think the difference is that Rasheed never cared if he was great or not. Even all the way back in high school, he asked to sit entire second halves of blowout games so his teammates could get more playing time and more touches. He’s always seemingly put team first. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a bad thing. But he didn’t want to be great, he didn’t need to be great. And all time greats need to have at least a little bit of selfishness in order to be great.

Sheed never put up regular seasons or playoff performances that Anthony Davis has. Anthony Davis has put up all NBA seasons. He’s put up great playoff numbers. Sheed was always content with playing second, third, or even fourth fiddle. Anthony Davis is closer to Tim Duncan and KG than he is to Sheed. And Sheed is closer to Kenyon Martin or Lamar Odom than is to Anthony Davis.
Both Rasheed and Davis have lower commitment to Basketball than Tim/KG. KG and Rasheed were lower IQ/headcases but KG had elite athleticism

So Rasheed ranks near the bottom of multiple measurements. There's a reason he was on his 4th team by age 31.

He would be more successful in today's Era. Instead he joined and played during arguably the golden age of Power Forwards. He had the best 3point shot of the 4 before mentioned players.

Where does Chris Bosh fall in this discussion?

[Millennial_Messiah]

So Rasheed ranks near the bottom of multiple measurements. There's a reason he was on his 4th team by age 31.

Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

You realize that he only played for the Wizards for 1 year right? And for the Hawks for literally ONE game in February 2004. :lmao

The ONLY team he actually wore out his welcome on was the Jailblazers who wanted a culture overhaul by the end of 2003. He wasn't some Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson guy who kept getting chances only to squander them and wear out his welcome faster than he could put on his underwear.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Where does Chris Bosh fall in this discussion?

Not even in the same continent. :lol

Bosh barely led his team to the playoffs every other year (and lost in the first round every time he did) as the #1 on the team that drafted him, and only played for one other team, was a distant #3 on a couple championship Heatles teams, and had a short career and retired young.

[Obstructed_View]

Not even in the same continent. :lol

Bosh barely led his team to the playoffs every other year (and lost in the first round every time he did) as the #1 on the team that drafted him, and only played for one other team, was a distant #3 on a couple championship Heatles teams, and had a short career and retired young.

This surprised me, so I had to look it up. Looks like he only made the playoffs twice in seven years in Toronto, and was 3-8. He's one of a lot of guys who can put up big numbers between the 20s.

[Millennial_Messiah]

This surprised me, so I had to look it up. Looks like he only made the playoffs twice in seven years in Toronto, and was 3-8. He's one of a lot of guys who can put up big numbers between the 20s.

Nice football analogy :tu

Iso Joe Johnson was another one of "those guys" from that era. Melo too, to an extent. Westbrick is "that guy" this era.

[FrostKing]

Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

You realize that he only played for the Wizards for 1 year right? And for the Hawks for literally ONE game in February 2004. :lmao

The ONLY team he actually wore out his welcome on was the Jailblazers who wanted a culture overhaul by the end of 2003. He wasn't some Ron Artest or Stephen Jackson guy who kept getting chances only to squander them and wear out his welcome faster than he could put on his underwear.
He wore out his welcome in the place he played 90% of his games before the Age of 30? Not sure that's a good reflection on him. Even if Detroit didn't come calling that soon, you think he would have lasted more than 1 season with the Hawks?

Take a look at the package Atlanta acquired in exchange for a 29-year old Rasheed Wallace...

[ambchang]

Most public personalities are awful people trying to act like good nice guys (jordan, zeke, kobe). Rasheed is the opposite where he is, by all accounts, a nice guy but had this public perception of him being a terrible person. Barkley had that in him but he’s now a rather loveable and popular guy.

[Obstructed_View]

Most public personalities are awful people trying to act like good nice guys (jordan, zeke, kobe). Rasheed is the opposite where he is, by all accounts, a nice guy but had this public perception of him being a terrible person. Barkley had that in him but he’s now a rather loveable and popular guy.

Rasheed didn't like reporters and he didn't like officials. The people that dislike Rasheed because of that also don't like reporters and officials.

[FrostKing]

I don't think anyone dislikes Rasheed, maybe just see a wasted/untapped talent. He ultimately solidified his legacy with those Celtics as a strong teammate and winner.

But we are comparing him to Hall of Famers and well Rasheed just falls short. A goofy almost gentle giant type IMO.

[Brazil]

Fact is, based on talent and skill and natural gifts, Anthony Davis sits at the same table as Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.

I'm sorry but I don't see it... Tim and KG are way better defender than AD and defense is also a matter of talent, skill and natural gifts. Scoring and rebounding are probably the only aspect of his game comparable to Tim, all the rest is not even close in particular on the defensive side.

[Chucho]

Oh wow. Sheed never had a playoff performance like Anthony Davis had??

Those 04 and 05 Pistons aren't in those Finals without Sheed. Period.

Anthony Davis' best playoff performance came after a month or so vacation before the playoffs started and that ring is the biggest asterisk in sports and that Miami team was terribly over matched. And Jokic absolutely cooked him and put him and the rest of the league on notice that Davis is definitely on the downside of his career.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Next season could easily be the last shot for these Lakers. If LeBron is true to his word about playing with Bronny the Lakers are screwed. Bronny is likely a FRP and the Lakers don't have one next year. I could definitely see a borderline playoff team taking Bronny just to get LBJ on some cheap deal for a year or two and that will be all she wrote for this iteration of the Lakers.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Next season could easily be the last shot for these Lakers. If LeBron is true to his word about playing with Bronny the Lakers are screwed. Bronny is likely a FRP and the Lakers don't have one next year. I could definitely see a borderline playoff team taking Bronny just to get LBJ on some cheap deal for a year or two and that will be all she wrote for this iteration of the Lakers.

If it's a really shitty media market like the Hornets or Pelicans, do you foresee him actually going there?

I honestly hope these Lakers are done and cooked. Sick of the bandwagoner era. Glad a home grown team won a championship for a change. I guess in 2021 the Bucks too. But before that? All bandwagon teams since 2014.