Musings from the Mainstream NBA Fan/Media Demographic

[Barfunk]

Not much of a thread starter, but couldn't help but post this. This is what Spurs fans now have to hear/read since in Pop's system, not even a SMIDGEN of stat stuffing/compiling/padding was allowed. ZERO. I'll start with this comment, as this is only an example of it. Feel free to post ones you find. If not, all good. I see these stupid comments all the time
though on social media, YouTube, etc.

"AS FAR AS BASKETBALL (OVERALL RAW TALENT) GARNETT WAS BETTER TIMMY CAPITALIZE ON A GREAT SYSTEM IF THEY WERE TO SWITCH PLACES....... THE DEBSTE WE HAVING RIGHT NOW WOULDN'T EVEN EXIST 💯"

[Barfunk]

If you switch Garnett and Duncan in 2003, the Spurs get knocked out of the first round, maybe don't even make the playoffs (not with those iterations of Parker and Ginobili).

Mainstream fans don't get that shiny stats don't always equal being a game changer and making everyone better, all while being able to lift a team that otherwise wouldn't make the playoffs to a whole championship.

If you're talking about the 2005 Spurs, then yes, that team makes the playoffs without Tim Duncan (much much better versions of Parker and Ginobili) but of course don't win the ship.

[Obstructed_View]

The KG/Timmy debate was put to rest years ago, and should be beneath discussion for any Spurs fan.

[Barfunk]

The KG/Timmy debate was put to rest years ago, and should be beneath discussion for any Spurs fan.

I hear that but it's just a tad irking. And it's not just Garnett, I see absolute gold all the time about Kobe being way better than Duncan.

[Obstructed_View]

I hear that but it's just a tad irking. And it's not just Garnett, I see absolute gold all the time about Kobe being way better than Duncan.

And the Kobe thing was put to rest years ago. A guy did a great series on Youtube called "Making the Case" where he makes an argument for eight NBA players to be the greatest of all time. Duncan is on the list of 8, Kobe and KG are not. My question is always, if you could draft one player from history at 19, who would it be? It's really hard to make a case for picking anyone but Duncan. And absolutely nobody has KG or Kobe as their answer.

[Barfunk]

And the Kobe thing was put to rest years ago. A guy did a great series on Youtube called "Making the Case" where he makes an argument for eight NBA players to be the greatest of all time. Duncan is on the list of 8, Kobe and KG are not. My question is always, if you could draft one player from history at 19, who would it be? It's really hard to make a case for picking anyone but Duncan. And absolutely nobody has KG or Kobe as their answer.

Definitely of course Duncan. And I've read from many people who say that they would take KG and Kobe over Duncan when starting a team. Good thing they aren't GMs. No intelligent GM would pick those players over Duncan. If the GM is a mumble rapper, then yes, that GM would pick Kobe or Garnett (shit maybe even someone like CP3) over Timmy.

[Barfunk]

And honestly, no disrespect to players like Kobe and KG, they were great, with Kobe being top 10 for sure, but Tim Duncan was a step above them. I don't understand why mainstream fans and media simply don't look to the 2002-2003 season, for evidence that proves this notion.

[SpursFan86]

This is nothing new. It’s beating a dead horse at this point but Duncan is criminally underrated amongst casual NBA fans.

I’ll say the thing that annoys me the most is how much credit Dirk gets for the 2011 title run. What Duncan did in ‘03 is far more impressive, but when you hear people talk about “most impressive playoff runs” it’s never mentioned while Dirk’s 2011 run is always brought up.

[Barfunk]

CRIMINALLY. And Dirk's 2011 run is actually amazing but like you said, Duncan's 03 run simply never gets mentioned amongst the verse dropping mainstream fans. Really never.

Edit: thought I quoted!

[scott]

It's all based on an obsession with athleticism and a confusion for athleticism with being a good basketball player. Many people on this forum make that mistake.

[Mr. Body]

Garnett isn't really being pushed by anyone but Celtics fans. But then Celtics fans are drooling morons who don't understand the NBA outside of their own players.

[Obstructed_View]

Garnett isn't really being pushed by anyone but Celtics fans. But then Celtics fans are drooling morons who don't understand the NBA outside of their own players.

And I've gotten to the age where I hate taking away from great players. Especially guys like KG and Kobe, who in my opinion were so committed to being great that they squeezed every drop of talent that they were capable of into production on the court.

Duncan was just better. He was a better player, he was a far better leader, and he was, far and away, the greatest teammate in the history of the NBA, and probably in the history of team sports.

[KobesAchilles]

I once went year by year to “prove” that kinda BS about KG vs Duncan. These are the Spurs teams with KG instead of Duncan
98 lose 2nd round Utah
99 lose 2nd round lakers
00 lose 2nd round Lakers
01 lose first round Dallas
02 lose first round Lakers
03 lose first round Phx
04 lose WCF to Lakers
05 maybe a championship
06 maybe a championship
07 lose 2nd round to Phx
08 lose WCF to Lakers(manu got hurt)
09 lose first round Dallas (Manu hurt again)
10 WCF but maybe lose to phx in 2nd round
11 lose 2nd round to thunder
12 2nd round to clippers
13 2nd round golden st
14 1st round Dallas
15 1st round clippers
16 2nd round Thunder

[timtonymanu]

Meh, Duncan was dominating in the era where casuals were tuned out because the Lakers were looking like shit. All that scowling by KG and all he got out of it was ONE championship and also having to team up with two other stars. No different than most superstars that join super teams.

Also Kobe will at this point be overrated by casuals and some analysts now that he’s passed away. Kobe’s death was tragic but I still remember some of the sociopathic behavior (like tweeting about how much his team sucks during a playoff game while he was injured) and many other things to count.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Even KG admits in so many words that TD was unsolvable for him and better than him. As for what he did to his teammates, here's something from KG himself - he ran Rasho Nesterovic off to the Spurs and who won a ring with Duncan as his leader. That made KG evaluate his attitude towards teammates and towards winning. It made him rethink his approach to the game and refocus his madness towards opponents than to his teammates. He admits that openly. Yet another page in the book of Duncan and his superiority as a player, a star and a teammate who just won without gloating about it.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The only thing worse than listening to casual fans is listening to ex NBA players. It’s worthless even discussing. A couple of years ago after the bubble a lot of people were saying Davis was equal or better than Timmy. It’s nonsense of course.

That said, Timmy’s legacy will unfortunately continue to be downplayed in the future because he was so low key and because he was playing at a time when raw stats weren’t as crazy. It is what it is. We know.

[exstatic]

It's all based on an obsession with athleticism and a confusion for athleticism with being a good basketball player. Many people on this forum make that mistake.

His name is rascal.

[Ice009]

And I've gotten to the age where I hate taking away from great players. Especially guys like KG and Kobe, who in my opinion were so committed to being great that they squeezed every drop of talent that they were capable of into production on the court.

Duncan was just better. He was a better player, he was a far better leader, and he was, far and away, the greatest teammate in the history of the NBA, and probably in the history of team sports.

I agree 100%. TD is better at those things you mentioned than most any player in NBA history, but my stance hasn't changed in the last 10+ years. If starting a team, I'd either go with TD or Hakeem. That's pretty much it. Hakeem wasn't as great of a teammate or leader IMO (he did get better towards the end of his career), but his skills were off the charts and fortunately/unfortunately, his athleticism lasted longer than TD's. If Tim was able to keep his athleticism from his first few seasons as long as Hakeem did for his athletic prime (in his 30s), it wouldn't even be a debate between the two for me.

[NickiRasgo]

Can't stand KG - Fake Tough Guy.


https://youtu.be/5Flmf6LklAc

[TD 21]

The only thing worse than listening to casual fans is listening to ex NBA players. It’s worthless even discussing. A couple of years ago after the bubble a lot of people were saying Davis was equal or better than Timmy. It’s nonsense of course.

That said, Timmy’s legacy will unfortunately continue to be downplayed in the future because he was so low key and because he was playing at a time when raw stats weren’t as crazy. It is what it is. We know.

Generally speaking, analytics too. The game wasn't about "shot profile", efficiency and spacing (granted, he preferred another C to start next to him and that was back before the notion of them stretching the floor was in vogue). Defense wasn't yet virtually outlawed either.

Drop the late 90s/early 00s (before the knees started going) version into today's game and he'd have been even greater than he was.

[ginobilized]

Duncan is the ultimate winner as a PF in the history of the NBA
KG was among the ultimate PF warriors, maybe the most fierce

However, KG's shit did not work on Timmy. At all.

KG/Pop would not have survived together for long, imo

People are obsessed with all the metrics, stats and numbers today, except winning. That's really the only metric that truly matters. No one has a winning career that compares to TD in my years of watching the game, started in 1974.

[spurraider21]

If you switch Garnett and Duncan in 2003, the Spurs get knocked out of the first round, maybe don't even make the playoffs (not with those iterations of Parker and Ginobili).

Mainstream fans don't get that shiny stats don't always equal being a game changer and making everyone better, all while being able to lift a team that otherwise wouldn't make the playoffs to a whole championship.

If you're talking about the 2005 Spurs, then yes, that team makes the playoffs without Tim Duncan (much much better versions of Parker and Ginobili) but of course don't win the ship.
I don’t think KG chokes as hard as Duncan did in game 5 of the finals tho :lol

that shits really ugly when rewatching

[exstatic]

Duncan is the ultimate winner as a PF in the history of the NBA
KG was among the ultimate PF warriors, maybe the most fierce

However, KG's shit did not work on Timmy. At all.

KG/Pop would not have survived together for long, imo

People are obsessed with all the metrics, stats and numbers today, except winning. That's really the only metric that truly matters. No one has a winning career that compares to TD in my years of watching the game, started in 1974.
Those two things are not incompatible, and in fact there is a correlation. The Spurs have always been on the cutting edge of advanced stats.

[couchman]

Can we talk about how Timmy may have been the best defender in NBA history?

[CGD]

Can we talk about how Timmy may have been the best defender in NBA history?

Preach

[TDMVPDPOY]

how when snaq always puts kirby into top10, then has to put someone out of the top10 who has a better resume...

wilt needs to be out of the top10 list imo for a guy who is athletic freak but didnt win much as a his peers...dominant on the state sheet is all he is

as for snaq MDE...only win 3 championships

[KobesAchilles]

Wilt is the greatest basketball player of all time

[Maddog]

Wilt is the greatest basketball player of all time

statistically he stood out in a small sample size

[exstatic]

statistically he stood out in a small sample size

15 seasons and 47859 minutes is a small sample size?

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

A lot of this and other bad tales are the medias fault though. They only cover stories that are easy to do and don’t deep dive when it isn’t. The Spurs organization has always been very tight knit and don’t share a lot of information. Tim was always very close to the vest with stuff also. This makes it hard for the journalist to do their job. Certain players and teams are more media friendly which helps promote them and their teams.

a perfect modern day example is this finals run the Nuggets have been on. They’ve been good all season and so has Jokic, and the media still seems surprised or doesn’t know how they do what they do. Lmao. Then you have all these talking heads who spew out uninformed takes and try to set the narrative that this finals will be boring and not get ratings. Funny enough it actually has had pretty good television ratings, but it’s not uncommon to hear casual fans of the league spew bad takes that they’ve heard from these talking heads about this finals.

the big sports media entities definitely need to do a better job of promoting folks who actually know the league as a whole to assist with the talking heads who appeal to the causal fans. It should be no reason that Lisa Salters (who is an accomplished individual in the sports media field) should publicly state she didn’t realize how good a back to back MVP is. SMH.

[Dex]

If you switch Garnett and Duncan in 2003, the Spurs get knocked out of the first round, maybe don't even make the playoffs (not with those iterations of Parker and Ginobili).

Mainstream fans don't get that shiny stats don't always equal being a game changer and making everyone better, all while being able to lift a team that otherwise wouldn't make the playoffs to a whole championship.

If you're talking about the 2005 Spurs, then yes, that team makes the playoffs without Tim Duncan (much much better versions of Parker and Ginobili) but of course don't win the ship.

You'll never change the minds of the Garnett-stans. Just because he was loud and flashy and would yell in people's face, casual fans view him as being the more aggressive and passionate player.

History speaks for itself. Duncan five rings with various casts both young and old, Garnett one ring and needed two HoF players next to him to get there. He doesn't get that ring without Pierce and Allen, and even then they came up short several times during their run.

[KobesAchilles]

statistically he stood out in a small sample size
There’s a lot of reasons why I believe it to be so but typically people point to 2 things to discredit him. His lack of championships. He “only” won 2. And his era where he was playing against midgets. Which is funny bc todays nba where Draymond Green plays center and is “short” and Rudy Gobert has way more height advantage than Wilt did in his era but he can’t dominate offensively at all.

One thing nobody brings up is his stamina. It’s literally the greatest of all time. There is zero argument on that. He averaged 48.5 minutes one season and 47.4 minutes another. There’s nobody else in the history of the league that is able to do that. And this guy traveled on regular buses, and flights, and played in shitty Converse. It’s so remarkable that people can’t even fathom how difficult that is and just pass over this fact.

Then he had a great vertical and could outjump anybody. He was faster than anybody and he went after every rebound and every block and tried to score every play. People shit on his ball hogging ways and say he’s a stay padder but how tf do you statpad 25 rebounds a game? It’s impossible. And then to still have the energy to put up 45-50 points a game. He would dominate any era bc nobody had his motor at his size and his strength and his speed.

Jordans career high in rebounds was like 7 a game. Wilt nearly quadrupled that. Jordan’s highest ppg was 35. Wilt added 15 points to that and made it to the CF. There were no blocks during that time but it’s speculation that he averaged like 9 a game. Jordan averaged 1 a game. Assists Wilt had a better career high. Idgaf that his team lost to a team that had 9 HOFs on it. When Kobe and Shaq kicked Duncan’s ass in 01 and 02 nowhere did i hold that against Duncan. They were the better team. Same when Lebron lost to Durant and Steph’s Warriors. I didn’t think Durant was better than Lebron. He just had a better team.

[Maddog]

There’s a lot of reasons why I believe it to be so but typically people point to 2 things to discredit him. His lack of championships. He “only” won 2. And his era where he was playing against midgets. Which is funny bc todays nba where Draymond Green plays center and is “short” and Rudy Gobert has way more height advantage than Wilt did in his era but he can’t dominate offensively at all.

One thing nobody brings up is his stamina. It’s literally the greatest of all time. There is zero argument on that. He averaged 48.5 minutes one season and 47.4 minutes another. There’s nobody else in the history of the league that is able to do that. And this guy traveled on regular buses, and flights, and played in shitty Converse. It’s so remarkable that people can’t even fathom how difficult that is and just pass over this fact.

Then he had a great vertical and could outjump anybody. He was faster than anybody and he went after every rebound and every block and tried to score every play. People shit on his ball hogging ways and say he’s a stay padder but how tf do you statpad 25 rebounds a game? It’s impossible. And then to still have the energy to put up 45-50 points a game. He would dominate any era bc nobody had his motor at his size and his strength and his speed.

Jordans career high in rebounds was like 7 a game. Wilt nearly quadrupled that. Jordan’s highest ppg was 35. Wilt added 15 points to that and made it to the CF. There were no blocks during that time but it’s speculation that he averaged like 9 a game. Jordan averaged 1 a game. Assists Wilt had a better career high. Idgaf that his team lost to a team that had 9 HOFs on it. When Kobe and Shaq kicked Duncan’s ass in 01 and 02 nowhere did i hold that against Duncan. They were the better team. Same when Lebron lost to Durant and Steph’s Warriors. I didn’t think Durant was better than Lebron. He just had a better team.


The game was very different in the early 60s when he ran up these ungodly numbers. If you watch what little tape there is while the pace was high- no where near the intensity.
Little to no team defense.
Despite playing 48.5 he only averaged 1.5 fouls!
Also over 10% of players averaged over 40 minutes per game in 61/62
Today zero

[KobesAchilles]

The game was very different in the early 60s when he ran up these ungodly numbers. If you watch what little tape there is while the pace was high- no where near the intensity.
Little to no team defense.
Despite playing 48.5 he only averaged 1.5 fouls!
Also over 10% of players averaged over 40 minutes per game in 61/62
Today zero
I mean Duncan averaged 40 minutes. So did Kobe and so did MJ and Lebron. I have seen 40 minutes a game. But never 48 minutes a game for an entire season AND on top of that he put up godly numbers. I know pace was crazy back in the day but really pace was fast in the 70s and also in the 80s. Pace went down in the 90s. And really defense wasn’t great until the mid 90s to the mid 00s. Before and after that defense kinda was shit.

[exstatic]

One measure of a player's dominance is how many rules did they change to keep him in check. Wilt had two. They widened the lane so he couldn't score as easily on putbacks, and they changed the rebounding ability of the FT shooter so that the ball must hit the rim before they can cross the FT line for a rebound.

[Ice009]

I don’t think KG chokes as hard as Duncan did in game 5 of the finals tho :lol

that shits really ugly when rewatching

You do know/remember that TD had two sprained ankles in those playoffs, right? He had a very bad ankle sprain going into the playoffs and then sprained the other one in the Sonics series, then had to battle against one of the best defensive frontcourts in NBA history (Spurs being the other greatest defense, but we couldn't play ourselves ;) ). The point is, I don't think he was anywhere close to 100% physically going up against that frontline and still held his own. He may have had a bad game, but battled his ass off all series and took us home in game 7. His performance against the frontcourt IMO was great considering he was playing on two bad wheels.

[RC_Drunkford]

people acting like going against a rotation of Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess is a cakewalk :lol

[CorrectCrusader]

Can we talk about how Timmy may have been the best defender in NBA history?

May? Is.

[Thomas82]

I agree 100%. TD is better at those things you mentioned than most any player in NBA history, but my stance hasn't changed in the last 10+ years. If starting a team, I'd either go with TD or Hakeem. That's pretty much it. Hakeem wasn't as great of a teammate or leader IMO (he did get better towards the end of his career), but his skills were off the charts and fortunately/unfortunately, his athleticism lasted longer than TD's. If Tim was able to keep his athleticism from his first few seasons as long as Hakeem did for his athletic prime (in his 30s), it wouldn't even be a debate between the two for me.

Yeah, that knee injury towards the end of Year 3 was brutal.

[Thomas82]

people acting like going against a rotation of Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess is a cakewalk :lol

And he did it with 2 sprained ankles.

[T Park]

people acting like going against a rotation of Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess is a cakewalk :lol

With Tayshaun Prince Rip hamilton Billups Hunter and others chopping down to double team.

that 05 Pistons series i will ALWAYS hold up, as the pinnacle of th dynasty. that Pistons team was ridiculous.

[T Park]

Yeah, that knee injury towards the end of Year 3 was brutal.

a knee injury that prob wouldnt have set him back as much now as it did back then.

bad timing of medicine etc etc

[TimmehC]

Can we talk about how Timmy may have been the best defender in NBA history?

Best DRtg of the 3-point era, with Robinson right behind him.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

[CorrectCrusader]

Best DRtg of the 3-point era, with Robinson right behind him.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

Manu at 50th is actually crazy

[R. DeMurre]

Yeah, people forget how good that 2005 Detroit team was-- they'd just dismantled the prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers the year before to win a championship, and got to the finals in '05 by beating the Wade/Shaq Heat, who themselves would go on the next season to win a championship. I'll always remember that 2004 championship series because nearly all the pundits had the Lakers, but Bill Russell picked the Pistons because of their defense, and a bunch of people online were clowning him and calling him a dinosaur who didn't understand the modern NBA.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, people forget how good that 2005 Detroit team was-- they'd just dismantled the prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers the year before to win a championship, and got to the finals in '05 by beating the Wade/Shaq Heat, who themselves would go on the next season to win a championship. I'll always remember that 2004 championship series because nearly all the pundits had the Lakers, but Bill Russell picked the Pistons because of their defense, and a bunch of people online were clowning him and calling him a dinosaur who didn't understand the modern NBA.

The Shaq/Kobe Lakers that year beat the Spurs by waiting to double-team Timmy in the last few minutes of the games, which was the difference in the series. Timmy came into the next year completely unfazed by double teams, as evidenced by his performance against the Pistons.

[exstatic]

The Shaq/Kobe Lakers that year beat the Spurs by waiting to double-team Timmy in the last few minutes of the games, which was the difference in the series. Timmy came into the next year completely unfazed by double teams, as evidenced by his performance against the Pistons.

The double teams were because Parker couldn't rise up in the PnR and hit the J. Both defenders went into drop coverage, doubling Tim. This directly led to Chip Englland being hired.

[wildbill2u]

Timmy's problem with plantar fasciitis doesn't get much mention by anyone, much less casual fans, when discussing his career. Probably because he tended to play it down as a reason for his sub-par play at times. As anyone who has had plantar fasciitis can testify, it is damn near disabling at times. It took away Tim's mobility and jumping ability during his prime years. Yet he persevered and continued to play at a high level for years and won most of his championships after the onset.

[RC_Drunkford]

With Tayshaun Prince Rip hamilton Billups Hunter and others chopping down to double team.

that 05 Pistons series i will ALWAYS hold up, as the pinnacle of th dynasty. that Pistons team was ridiculous.

I loved that Pistons team

[TD 21]

Yeah, people forget how good that 2005 Detroit team was-- they'd just dismantled the prime Shaq/Kobe Lakers the year before to win a championship, and got to the finals in '05 by beating the Wade/Shaq Heat, who themselves would go on the next season to win a championship. I'll always remember that 2004 championship series because nearly all the pundits had the Lakers, but Bill Russell picked the Pistons because of their defense, and a bunch of people online were clowning him and calling him a dinosaur who didn't understand the modern NBA.

Context: The O'Neal/Bryant dysfunction had reached a boiling point during '04 and Malone mostly (missed a game) played injured during the Finals, while both O'Neal/Wade (missed a game) got injured though played late in the '05 ECF.

They also benefitted from Duncan playing through two sprained ankles during the '05 Finals.

[Mr. Body]

Lakers got slaughtered by Detroit that one year. Phil Jackson did that thing where if he didn't have overwhelming talent he just turtled.

[Thomas82]

a knee injury that prob wouldnt have set him back as much now as it did back then.

bad timing of medicine etc etc

I can definitely agree with that

[ambchang]

Lakers got slaughtered by Detroit that one year. Phil Jackson did that thing where if he didn't have overwhelming talent he just turtled.

He did have an overwhelming talent advantage that series. He also had kobe bryant who “prioritize winning over everything else” jacking shot after shot in an attempt to win the finals mvp. Even mr billups, who is uncontroversial his entire career, went on record to say their strategy was to let kobe shoot themselves out of the game. Lol. All that revised history about shaq being contained by the Wallace brothers when he shot something like 68% the entire series.

[CorrectCrusader]

He did have an overwhelming talent advantage that series. He also had kobe bryant who “prioritize winning over everything else” jacking shot after shot in an attempt to win the finals mvp. Even mr billups, who is uncontroversial his entire career, went on record to say their strategy was to let kobe shoot themselves out of the game. Lol. All that revised history about shaq being contained by the Wallace brothers when he shot something like 68% the entire series.

Kobe 100% threw the series for ego purposes. Wild how nobody talks about it today.

[Ice009]

Timmy's problem with plantar fasciitis doesn't get much mention by anyone, much less casual fans, when discussing his career. Probably because he tended to play it down as a reason for his sub-par play at times. As anyone who has had plantar fasciitis can testify, it is damn near disabling at times. It took away Tim's mobility and jumping ability during his prime years. Yet he persevered and continued to play at a high level for years and won most of his championships after the onset.

I don't remember if TD had to deal with it throughout the later half of his career. Can anyone confirm that? I remember he had it during the 2006 regular season and it was causing him a lot of issues, but come playoff time, TD was the best player in te entire playoffs up to the point we were eliminated (It never should have come to that as the officiating was dodgy as shit against the Mavs. Then you also had Pop running small ball when he hadn't done it all season, and also, even with Manu's foul on Dirk, TD still should have had two free throws as he was raked across the arms on the final possession of regulation from what I remember).


Context: The O'Neal/Bryant dysfunction had reached a boiling point during '04 and Malone mostly (missed a game) played injured during the Finals, while both O'Neal/Wade (missed a game) got injured though played late in the '05 ECF.

They also benefitted from Duncan playing through two sprained ankles during the '05 Finals.

That front court really was definitely great defensively, but as mentioned, the Pistons did get a little luck in 2004, and as you said, they also benefitted from going against TD not being close to fully healthy in 2005. I think TD could have played even better had his ankles not been injured, so in a way, the Pistons were a little lucky in that regard. Not sure how hurt he was during that series, or what percentage he was operating at health wise, but he still played pretty darn well thought the series IMO. He was amazing in game 7 putting them all in foul trouble and really carrying the Spurs to the Championship. I don't remember hardly anyone expect Manu playing well (offensively) for the Spurs in that series (apart from Horry game 5)., so that wouldn't have helped either as the Pistons could put more attention on Tim.

As for Malone, didn't he miss most of the 2004 finals games? I don't remember. Was it only 1 game that he missed or multiple games? Pretty much if it wasn't for the dysfunction between Shaq and Kobe and Malone being injured, I think the Lakers would have won that series. I also think the Spurs could have beaten the 2004 Pistons too (I really shouldn't take anything away from them as they were a darn good team).

I also don't remember what happened in the ECF in 2005. Was it Wade that was injured? Was he hindered throughout the series Vs the Pistons?

[Obstructed_View]

Kobe 100% threw the series for ego purposes. Wild how nobody talks about it today.

Because they were all front-running Laker fans. Kobe would be top ten all time if basketball were an individual sport.

[sammy]

The KG/Timmy debate was put to rest years ago, and should be beneath discussion for any Spurs fan.

I agree! Timmy is a 5 time champion and KG a one hit wonder

[KobesAchilles]

Kobe redeemed himself in 09 and 10. But man 04-07 was ugly for him and most Stan’s act like it never happened. Dude purposefully lost them the finals (according to Phil Jackson himself) by trying ensure he shot more than Shaq. He ran Shaq outta town in 05 and missed the playoffs just so he could ball hog and average 35 a game. Quit in game 7 in 06 vs the Suns and complained about not having talent when again, he’s the one who ran out Shaq. And lost again in round 1 in 07.

[Mr. Body]

Kobe redeemed himself in 09 and 10. But man 04-07 was ugly for him and most Stan’s act like it never happened. Dude purposefully lost them the finals (according to Phil Jackson himself) by trying ensure he shot more than Shaq. He ran Shaq outta town in 05 and missed the playoffs just so he could ball hog and average 35 a game. Quit in game 7 in 06 vs the Suns and complained about not having talent when again, he’s the one who ran out Shaq. And lost again in round 1 in 07.

Kobe had a ridiculous front line in those years -- Bynum, Odom, and an outright gift in Pau Gasol. He never won anything without a ridiculous front line.

[Obstructed_View]

Kobe had a ridiculous front line in those years -- Bynum, Odom, and an outright gift in Pau Gasol. He never won anything without a ridiculous front line.
He also had super clutch shooters and teammates who stepped up and made huge shots for his teams. Great stats guy, but almost never a difference maker.

[KobesAchilles]

He also had super clutch shooters and teammates who stepped up and made huge shots for his teams. Great stats guy, but almost never a difference maker.
Every all time great had clutch teammates that stepped up. I can’t think of one that didn’t. Maybe Bird? Anyways Kobe was more than just a stats guy. To say otherwise is hating to foolishness. He was dominant in the 01 and 02 WCFs and Finals. He kept the Lakers the 4th seed in 03 when Shaq refused to play bc of his toe injury. He played very well in 04 against us and then in the finals he threw the hissy fit.

In 08, his lone MVP year, he was dominant in the WC that year in the playoffs. Yeah he sucked in the finals but that series really proved they went as he went. Same in 09 and 10. He dominated the West. Yes he had a hell of a frontline in Pau, Bynum, Lamar and Metta. But if anybody recalls, Lamar really never had his head in basketball 100% and only Kobe could keep his lazy ass off drugs and in the gym. Metta was seen as a cancer and Kobe helped revive his career and Bynum was extremely childish and was a giant pussy against any type of physical play. He was also extremely immature.

From 01-04 and 08-10 was all time great from Kobe

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Every all time great had clutch teammates that stepped up. I can’t think of one that didn’t. Maybe Bird? Anyways Kobe was more than just a stats guy. To say otherwise is hating to foolishness. He was dominant in the 01 and 02 WCFs and Finals. He kept the Lakers the 4th seed in 03 when Shaq refused to play bc of his toe injury. He played very well in 04 against us and then in the finals he threw the hissy fit.

In 08, his lone MVP year, he was dominant in the WC that year in the playoffs. Yeah he sucked in the finals but that series really proved they went as he went. Same in 09 and 10. He dominated the West. Yes he had a hell of a frontline in Pau, Bynum, Lamar and Metta. But if anybody recalls, Lamar really never had his head in basketball 100% and only Kobe could keep his lazy ass off drugs and in the gym. Metta was seen as a cancer and Kobe helped revive his career and Bynum was extremely childish and was a giant pussy against any type of physical play. He was also extremely immature.

From 01-04 and 08-10 was all time great from Kobe
Lol mmk ESPN.

[ambchang]

Every all time great had clutch teammates that stepped up. I can’t think of one that didn’t. Maybe Bird? Anyways Kobe was more than just a stats guy. To say otherwise is hating to foolishness. He was dominant in the 01 and 02 WCFs and Finals. He kept the Lakers the 4th seed in 03 when Shaq refused to play bc of his toe injury. He played very well in 04 against us and then in the finals he threw the hissy fit.

In 08, his lone MVP year, he was dominant in the WC that year in the playoffs. Yeah he sucked in the finals but that series really proved they went as he went. Same in 09 and 10. He dominated the West. Yes he had a hell of a frontline in Pau, Bynum, Lamar and Metta. But if anybody recalls, Lamar really never had his head in basketball 100% and only Kobe could keep his lazy ass off drugs and in the gym. Metta was seen as a cancer and Kobe helped revive his career and Bynum was extremely childish and was a giant pussy against any type of physical play. He was also extremely immature.

From 01-04 and 08-10 was all time great from Kobe

01 kobe was clearly robin. He was comparable to Vince carter and tmac those years and I wouldn’t call those two all time greats. Iverson was clearly the better player in 01 and I wouldn’t even call iverson an all time great. The only difference is that kobe had shaq. 02 he played well against the likes of Steve smith in the playoffs being single teamed every game because shaq drew double and triple teams every time.

08 was the lifetime achievement award when cp3 had a better year and cp3 wasn’t an all time great, then got his shit pushed in by Pierce in the finals. 09 and 10 he was outplayed by Lebron, Chris Paul, Dwayne wade and d12. Even MVPau had better advanced stats than he did. Even Brandon Roy had an argument over him, stats wise.

Funny thing about kobe is that all the talk about him being a top 10/15 all time, there isn’t one single season he was clearly the best player in the league. Not one.

Jordan 91 to 98
bird mid 80s
magic late 80s
russell and chamberlain 60s
Jabbar 70s
Shaq had 00 and 01
Duncan had 02 and 03, arguably 04 and 05.
Lebron had late 00s all the way to most of 10s
Hakeem had 94 95
Moses had early 80s
Whats Kobe’s?

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Lakerfan always overrated every player in purple and gold until Kobe, then Lakerfan becomes Kobefan and labors to minimize the contributions of every teammate he ever had, without whom he would have zero trips to the finals.

[KobesAchilles]

01 kobe was clearly robin. He was comparable to Vince carter and tmac those years and I wouldn’t call those two all time greats. Iverson was clearly the better player in 01 and I wouldn’t even call iverson an all time great. The only difference is that kobe had shaq. 02 he played well against the likes of Steve smith in the playoffs being single teamed every game because shaq drew double and triple teams every time.

08 was the lifetime achievement award when cp3 had a better year and cp3 wasn’t an all time great, then got his shit pushed in by Pierce in the finals. 09 and 10 he was outplayed by Lebron, Chris Paul, Dwayne wade and d12. Even MVPau had better advanced stats than he did. Even Brandon Roy had an argument over him, stats wise.

Funny thing about kobe is that all the talk about him being a top 10/15 all time, there isn’t one single season he was clearly the best player in the league. Not one.

Jordan 91 to 98
bird mid 80s
magic late 80s
russell and chamberlain 60s
Jabbar 70s
Shaq had 00 and 01
Duncan had 02 and 03, arguably 04 and 05.
Lebron had late 00s all the way to most of 10s
Hakeem had 94 95
Moses had early 80s
Whats Kobe’s?
The amount of hating here is unreal. So Kobe isn’t even top 15? Is he top 20? Better be careful with stupid comments bc you have to actually know the league and its history in order to say that. So Durant is better than Kobe? He’s like 13. Steph is better than Kobe? Heck if you’re at 15-20 range then you’re in the Malone and KG level. Barkley was better than Kobe. I’m not even a Kobe fan (heck my profile started out as a troll of him getting injured) but sometimes I wonder if y’all actually watched the league back then.

Yes Shaq was better than Kobe this years. Duh. But the dude averaged 30 ppg was the leader in assists on the team, second in rebounds, and actually played defense. Unlike a Vince Carter (who literally averaged less in every category as the number 1 option). And AI played zero defense. And yes in Kobes later years he was wrongly put on all defensive nba teams. But not early in his career. He was great at it.

And in 2008 you think Chris Paul deserved the MVP? Shit you must think Nash deserved his MVPs too over Shaq and Lebron bc Paul had similar stats to him. Kobe justly won the MVP. Chris Paul wasn’t better than him. And to shit on Kobe for getting his lunch eaten by Pierce but say nothing about your MVP Paul getting his shit pushed in during the second round is disingenuous.

So you’re mad bc Kobe wasn’t better than MJ? Wasn’t better than Duncan? And wasn’t better than Shaq or Lebron? Well no shit. Those are top 8 players of all time. I have Kobe 9th. I’m interested in your list now. Give me the top 20 since Kobe doesn’t make your top 15

[spurraider21]

Lakers got slaughtered by Detroit that one year. Phil Jackson did that thing where if he didn't have overwhelming talent he just turtled.
2010 vs celtics was a hard fought series

[ambchang]

The amount of hating here is unreal. So Kobe isn’t even top 15? Is he top 20? Better be careful with stupid comments bc you have to actually know the league and its history in order to say that. So Durant is better than Kobe? He’s like 13. Steph is better than Kobe? Heck if you’re at 15-20 range then you’re in the Malone and KG level. Barkley was better than Kobe. I’m not even a Kobe fan (heck my profile started out as a troll of him getting injured) but sometimes I wonder if y’all actually watched the league back then.

Strawman, nothing related to what I said. Point is, what year was Kobe clearly the best player? I can't figure out any of the years he was the best player. And he is the only player with a seat at the top 10 that has that. I couldn't find a single year Durant was clearly the best player in a year either. Steph has one, maybe two years. Let's face it, Kobe was ranked top 10/15 strictly due to narratives, he was Pippen 3 out of the 5 titles, and in the other two, somehow Pau Gasol led the team in WS. He had a history of throwing games to satisfy his own ego, he was highly inefficient with questionable shot selection his entire career. Hypothetically, if he spent his entire career in, say NJ, he wouldn't even sniff the top 20, and he did, because he had the best frontcourt more than half his career, which was actually the mismatches that put the Lakers over the top.

For all his dominance, he led the league in scoring, twice. He didn't lead the league in ANY per 36 min stats, ever. He never led the league in any per 100 possession stats, the only advanced stats he ever lead the league in was usage rate.


Yes Shaq was better than Kobe this years. Duh. But the dude averaged 30 ppg was the leader in assists on the team, second in rebounds, and actually played defense. Unlike a Vince Carter (who literally averaged less in every category as the number 1 option). And AI played zero defense. And yes in Kobes later years he was wrongly put on all defensive nba teams. But not early in his career. He was great at it.

Agreed, Kobe was great as a defender, and he was fantastic one on one, no question. Neither Carter nor Iverson were top 10 players, they aren't even top 30 players by most count.


And in 2008 you think Chris Paul deserved the MVP? Shit you must think Nash deserved his MVPs too over Shaq and Lebron bc Paul had similar stats to him. Kobe justly won the MVP. Chris Paul wasn’t better than him. And to shit on Kobe for getting his lunch eaten by Pierce but say nothing about your MVP Paul getting his shit pushed in during the second round is disingenuous.

Chris Paul is not top 10 or 15 all time, either. His peak was comparable to Kobe's, and 08 showed it. CP3 led the league in assists and steals, while Kobe led in points. CP3 led the league in WS, OWS, w/48, while Kobe finished 4th, 5th, 8th. Paul also finished higher in BPM, OPBM, DPBM and VORP.

In 2008, the Lakers were 22-5 in the 27 games Pau Gasol was in, that is an 82% winning percentage and on track to win 67 games. Without Pau Gasol, they were 35-20 for a 64% winning percentage and on pace for 52 wins. And don't give me the bull crap about them getting their footing later in the season after Gasol joined, because after playing 19 games, Gasol was off for 9 games and the lakers were only 5-4 in those games for a winning percentage of 55%, the winning came back after Gasol was back. I am not saying the Lakers were Gasol's team, but Gasol was certainly the one with much more impact on winning that year.


So you’re mad bc Kobe wasn’t better than MJ? Wasn’t better than Duncan? And wasn’t better than Shaq or Lebron? Well no shit. Those are top 8 players of all time. I have Kobe 9th. I’m interested in your list now. Give me the top 20 since Kobe doesn’t make your top 15

I never said he shouldn't be top 20, I am just pointing out him being ranked that high is mostly narratives.

In no particularly order, players I would undoubtedly rank above Kobe:
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Jabbar
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses (I admit I am probably the only one who would, but he was great)

Players I would rank along side Kobe:
Durant
Steph

Players who should be ranked along side Kobe, but people would get shat on for saying due to narratives:
Dirk
Jokic (recency bias)

Players who are below Kobe, but mostly due to circumstances:
Drexler
Wade
Barkley
Robinson
Karl Malone
KG
Havlicek
Pippen

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Fancy offensive stat-padding and false narratives aside, there are a number of players you could swap onto those Laker teams and win more championships than they did with Kobe, just from their being better teammates and not driving coaches and teammates away.

Believe it or not, there are players who beat the Raptors without having to score 81 points.

[R. DeMurre]

I would definitely take a prime healthy Steph over a prime healthy Kobe. He creates more gravity on the court, and creates more harmony on the team. Steph's highs are higher-- three historic years in a row of 67, 73, & 67 wins-- and Kobe's lows are much lower-- multiple seasons of creating turmoil, losing, and being a me-first guy. Kobe's last two seasons are the best bad examples ever of an aging star taking terrible shots on awful teams, and freezing the development of young players.

[KobesAchilles]

Fancy offensive stat-padding and false narratives aside, there are a number of players you could swap onto those Laker teams and win more championships than they did with Kobe, just from their being better teammates and not driving coaches and teammates away.

Believe it or not, there are players who beat the Raptors without having to score 81 points.
There are a number of players that would win more than 5 rings? Really? Bc in NBA history there are only (off the top of my head admittedly) 4 players who weren’t Bill Russell’s teammate that won more than 5 rings. That’s it. Also the last team to win more than 3 championships in a row was the Boston Celtics in the 60s. So how would they have won more? Believe it or not, it’s hard to win more than 5 championships. Believe it or not it’s hard to win 4 in a row.

If your argument is that he would’ve been suckyish had he stayed in Charlotte and not been so highly regarded then yeah I agree with you. Could he lead them to a title. Doubt it. Luck plays a factor. It does with everybody. I mean Duncan got Parker at the end of the 1st round and Gino at the end of the second. Pretty damn lucky. Heck if Doc allowed his wife aboard the plane, then Duncan wouldn’t have ended his career with all his accomplishments. How many championships does Tim win with a broken Grant Hill and a hurt back tmac and choker Doc Rivers as a coach? He wouldn’t be regarded as the best power forward of all time.

You go enough years and you forget about the bad of players. I get that Kobe had a lot of bad. But so did Magic. Dude was a coach killer and won an undeserved finals mvp bc the media hated his teammate. He was also drafted the the Lakers with MVP Kareem. And they won 5 rings together. They are both top 5-7 players of all time and they only won 5 together. And they had another HOF in Worthy. I guess you could e replaced Magic with anybody or Kareem with anybody.

To end my long tangent defending Kobe Bryant (something I thought I would never seriously do) I would not draft Kobe if I were a GM for a team within the Top 10. Hell I wouldn’t draft Mike either. Give me D-Rob and an actual coach to teach him to play basketball instead of one year of Larry Brown and towel guy Tark, Lucas, the waiter at Pico de Gallo, did Bass come back or was it Stan? But as an nba player with nba accomplishments, Kobe is top 9-13.