The Search for a Second Star

[Dejounte]

I think a few things are clear:

-The Spurs are not going to have a losing season with Wemby on board, so relying on future drafts with their own picks to find the second guy is unlikely
-They are hitching their wagon on the current group of young guys. The young core might be here for a long time. I think the Spurs will want to show Wemby how different they are from the rest of the NBA, and keeping continuity or big parts of their roster intact is the “Spurs way” vs other teams where they’re constantly shifting things around. Wemby loves the Spurs for a reason, and it isn’t only because they won championships. Anyone who is a fan of the Spurs know the Spurs are the Spurs because of the unique things they do.


Tbh, the bar isn’t high anymore for a second guy to rise up. Jamal Murray isn’t a spectacular player compared to big time second fiddles like Shaq, Pippen, Paul Pierce. Who was second fiddle to Butler? Jalen Brown is about to be an overpaid player because he’s overrated. Anthony Davis is probably the only “second” star that qualifies as one who is better than or equal to the primary star on the Lakers (LeBron).

and finding the second star doesn’t always have to be through a top 5 pick in the lottery. There are a lot more ways a second star can be found, and most oftentimes, they can be homegrown. It’s not out of the question yet for most guys on the current roster. Someone may rise up and surprise us. Or it could be a guy we draft with the 20th pick in coming years.

There’s always an option of signing or trading for an established player, similar to what they did to get Aldridge. I’m sort of not a fan of this route because of what we could potentially give up and the chance they might bring their own ego to the team that the team wouldn’t be able to control. I think this path is more suited to when we have our 1 and 2 already.

[Dejounte]

I think it’s worth noting that the Grizzlies are heading into their 5th season with Ja Morant and still no second star to show for it. That’s how hard it is to find a second guy. However, no one is highlighting that lack of a second star yet because they make the playoffs year after year. After a few more years, it’s going to be painfully obvious that Ja needs a Robin (or he needs a Batman) in order to get a ring. That’s always how this cycle goes. I think the Spurs recognize it and will waste no time trying to find that second guy for Wemby, my example with Ja shows that it won’t be easy.

edit: Luka finally got his second star in his 5th season with the Mavericks, but that doesn’t look promising at all… this is actually what I meant in my original post where I don’t think it’s best to find that second guy via trade or free agency.

[Collins21]

I think a few things are clear:

-The Spurs are not going to have a losing season with Wemby on board, so relying on future drafts with their own picks to find the second guy is unlikely
-They are hitching their wagon on the current group of young guys. The young core might be here for a long time. I think the Spurs will want to show Wemby how different they are from the rest of the NBA, and keeping continuity or big parts of their roster intact is the “Spurs way” vs other teams where they’re constantly shifting things around. Wemby loves the Spurs for a reason, and it isn’t only because they won championships. Anyone who is a fan of the Spurs know the Spurs are the Spurs because of the unique things they do.


Tbh, the bar isn’t high anymore for a second guy to rise up. Jamal Murray isn’t a spectacular player compared to big time second fiddles like Shaq, Pippen, Paul Pierce. Who was second fiddle to Butler? Jalen Brown is about to be an overpaid player because he’s overrated. Anthony Davis is probably the only “second” star that qualifies as one who is better than or equal to the primary star on the Lakers (LeBron).

and finding the second star doesn’t always have to be through a top 5 pick in the lottery. There are a lot more ways a second star can be found, and most oftentimes, they can be homegrown. It’s not out of the question yet for most guys on the current roster. Someone may rise up and surprise us. Or it could be a guy we draft with the 20th pick in coming years.

There’s always an option of signing or trading for an established player, similar to what they did to get Aldridge. I’m sort of not a fan of this route because of what we could potentially give up and the chance they might bring their own ego to the team that the team wouldn’t be able to control. I think this path is more suited to when we have our 1 and 2 already.

[Collins21]

I think You're selling Jamal Murray way short. The dude was injured for a season and a half. If he would have had the opportunity to build on his performance from the bubble he would be thought of very differently by now. There's not to many players that can do what Murray does he's a special player in fact as good as Jokic is they don't get past the second round without Murray. Murray was the reason the Nuggets won. Thye couldn't advance in the playoffs without him the past few seasons.

[cutewizard]

Out of the bat thought >>>> Devin Vassell

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-BMZh_dKO0

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJaMzLl7sCk

[Dejounte]

I think You're selling Jamal Murray way short. The dude was injured for a season and a half. If he would have had the opportunity to build on his performance from the bubble he would be thought of very differently by now. There's not to many players that can do what Murray does he's a special player in fact as good as Jokic is they don't get past the second round without Murray. Murray was the reason the Nuggets won. Thye couldn't advance in the playoffs without him the past few seasons.

I’m not taking away any of Murray’s contributions in their championship run.

My point is that his level of talent (as a second star) isn’t one that we’ve grown accustomed to from past greats.

Would you build around Jamal Murray? No.

Could you build around Shaq? Yes. Replace Paul Pierce with Jamal Murray on that era of the Celtics and they are nowhere near as successful.

[JPB]

I think You're selling Jamal Murray way short. The dude was injured for a season and a half. If he would have had the opportunity to build on his performance from the bubble he would be thought of very differently by now. There's not to many players that can do what Murray does he's a special player in fact as good as Jokic is they don't get past the second round without Murray. Murray was the reason the Nuggets won. Thye couldn't advance in the playoffs without him the past few seasons.

nah, Murray might be a nice player but not even close to Jokic level.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Good thread.

It appears that there are two ways to build a winning team with the new CBA - having two stars and a carefully built cheap-ish team around them, or a single superstar + a number of very high level role players. The issue in terms of team building isn't even which players you're going to call stars or role players but who's going to be paid like one. Denver, for example, have 3 players on max contracts, but we don't think of them as a 3-star team like Phoenix. There is also the very important distinction between the fun max - 2nd contract max of players like Jamal Murray or Bam, which is in the 30s mil per (25% of the cap) and the 3rd contract star player max, which goes in the 50s (35% of the cap).

The Spurs have to get a clear sense of their timeline before committing hard to either strategy. Is Wemby going to be MVP level good within 2/3 years like Duncan (who was older) or 5/6 year like Jokic, for example. Obviously if he doesn't reach that level we can't talk about contending, so let's go with these 2 timelines. Point is, that they're very different in terms of how they should build the team. If it's the quick track one then they could use their stash of picks to trade for another star and rely on players like Vassell, Sochan, Keldon, Branham to be good role players before they have to be paid too much. However, if we're talking about contending 6 years down the line then it's unlikely you can rely on the current players and you can't blow your future picks on a star only for that star not to align with the Wemby timeline. In that case they'd have to carefully develop players, slowly assemble a team of the best talents they could have but with cost controlled contracts and trade those who wouldn't match the timeline, or who would be too expensive. Kicking picks and assets further back in time could also be helpful as you'd ideally want those just in time to trade them for that 2nd star or those importnat role players that you haven't produced yourself.

This is why they probably want to go very carefully in season one. They need a clearer perspective on where they stand and which plan they should act on. I'm sure they have plenty of scenarios and plans, as timvp has been suggesting for a long time. It'll be such a fun ride for us as fans.

[Spurs Homer]

Pretty sure Sochan will be that guy...


Now...how do the Spurs find a THIRD star?

[LeBowen]

Here I go again, but I still think Garland would be perfect.

Elite triple threat with the ball, 21/8 while playing with that chucker Mitchell. Around 40% from deep on high volume while taking a lot of difficult ones.
Could easily be a 25/10 guy for us, is still just 23.

Obviously Cavs aren't trading him right now, but they have zero wings and playing two undersized guards who bad defensively just can't work.
I'm sure they'll eventually put Garland on the market.

Is his contract an overpay? Yes, it is.
Are there better players? Obviously.

But I think that out of all the point guards currently in the league he's the most realistic all-star caliber target that fits the timeline.
And his defense wouldn't be an issue with the projected core of Devin, Jeremy and Victor.

Anyhow, regardless of the name, we need an elite triple threat of pnr to pair with Victor.
Devin can develop into a 25ppg scorer, but he won't be the primary creator.
The beautiful game 2.0 would be nice, but again, we need a primary creator.

Maybe we get someone else, but my take that we need that type of point guard will remain the same.
I just keep mentioning Garland because other targets aren't realistic.

We're not getting Jamal, Luka, Ja, Edwards, SGA, Booker, Fox, Lamelo, Haliburton or Brunson.
Leaving Garland as the most relistic target that's not too old for the timeline.

Or another future prospect.

I don't think Spurs will be chasing trades in other positions unless some proven star is a good fit and asks out.

So it should be a Wemby-Jeremy-Devin core alongside an elite point guard.

[Spursfanfromafar]

The Spurs way was developing Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili into 2A/2B respectively. Can they do it with Vassell and Keldon. We will see. Only when they don't manage to develop relative to championship expectations in the medium term will the Spurs look for a FA second star. Build it organically as the Spurs themselves did around Duncan and later how the Nuggets did it around Jokic.

[Silverheart80]

I think a few things are clear:

-The Spurs are not going to have a losing season with Wemby on board, so relying on future drafts with their own picks to find the second guy is unlikely
-They are hitching their wagon on the current group of young guys. The young core might be here for a long time. I think the Spurs will want to show Wemby how different they are from the rest of the NBA, and keeping continuity or big parts of their roster intact is the “Spurs way” vs other teams where they’re constantly shifting things around. Wemby loves the Spurs for a reason, and it isn’t only because they won championships. Anyone who is a fan of the Spurs know the Spurs are the Spurs because of the unique things they do.


Tbh, the bar isn’t high anymore for a second guy to rise up. Jamal Murray isn’t a spectacular player compared to big time second fiddles like Shaq, Pippen, Paul Pierce. Who was second fiddle to Butler? Jalen Brown is about to be an overpaid player because he’s overrated. Anthony Davis is probably the only “second” star that qualifies as one who is better than or equal to the primary star on the Lakers (LeBron).

and finding the second star doesn’t always have to be through a top 5 pick in the lottery. There are a lot more ways a second star can be found, and most oftentimes, they can be homegrown. It’s not out of the question yet for most guys on the current roster. Someone may rise up and surprise us. Or it could be a guy we draft with the 20th pick in coming years.

There’s always an option of signing or trading for an established player, similar to what they did to get Aldridge. I’m sort of not a fan of this route because of what we could potentially give up and the chance they might bring their own ego to the team that the team wouldn’t be able to control. I think this path is more suited to when we have our 1 and 2 already.

There's a one-on-one conversation somewhere on YouTube between Gervin and Vassell. My favorite part is when Ice gently chastizes him for only being a 20ppg scorer on 15 shots (Devin's estimate, not mine). He says if he was more aggressive, he would get more free throws and because he doesn't, he's leaving points on the table. Even in a staged interview, you could tell that comment landed hard.

I think we'll know in the first 60 games if Devin is capable of being the Robin to VW's Batman. His arc so far has been spotty (injuries, DNPs via shadow-tanking), but if he's scoring 25ppg in that first 60 and his FT attempts escalate, we might have our answer.

[Big Empty]

Its whoever hires the best scouts with the new cba going foward. If they can spot solid role players, we can pay Wemby his 5 year $300 million extension in a few years if he is who he’s hyped up to be, and surround him with solid role players. Who know? Could be this current group. We have a ton draft picks to trade for solid players also if our current roster doesnt pan out. I think we all have a bit of Kawhi PTSD wanting the front office to be aggressive now to make sure Wemby stays happy and stays here.

[JPB]

spurs are clearly focusing on developing their young core they believe in. Keldon, Devin, Malaki, Jeremy... that's a very promising group there around Wemby who will make everyone better. I believe they'll chase a proven PG this summer but no major moves (probably no opportunities for that anyway).

that should be interesting to see how excited these guys will be to play with Wemby and vice and versa. I believe it's a perfect situation for Wemby, that will be his team from day one, even as a rookie and spurs will focus on making sure of that... Putting another star in his feet right away might not be the best idea... Let the kid show them, then only eventually bring a second star the following years year if you can and you believe you don't have it already.

[Extra Stout]

I think it’s worth noting that the Grizzlies are heading into their 5th season with Ja Morant and still no second star to show for it. That’s how hard it is to find a second guy. However, no one is highlighting that lack of a second star yet because they make the playoffs year after year. After a few more years, it’s going to be painfully obvious that Ja needs a Robin (or he needs a Batman) in order to get a ring. That’s always how this cycle goes. I think the Spurs recognize it and will waste no time trying to find that second guy for Wemby, my example with Ja shows that it won’t be easy.

edit: Luka finally got his second star in his 5th season with the Mavericks, but that doesn’t look promising at all… this is actually what I meant in my original post where I don’t think it’s best to find that second guy via trade or free agency.
Jaren Jackson Jr. made the All-Star team this past season. Also they have Desmond Bane who is close to that level.

The Spurs have a ton of draft capital and lots of swings at the ball to nab another elite player. They can help themselves by “being patient,” “seeing what they have,” and “finding out what works” in 2023-24, i.e. sandbagging the season to net a better draft pick. This does not mesh with your premise, but it’s what I predict will happen.

[rankingtear]

PNR guard. We have 2-3 years to find one. Someone would be available for a trade in that window. All star guards move all the time.

[dbestpro]

That player is on the team or will be drafted. What makes a star is not how many points they score but rather how much better they make everyone else.

[DAF86]

I'm having a really hard time seeing anyone on the current roster becoming that 2nd banana, tbh.

[BacktoBasics]

The Spurs are not going to “sandbag” this coming season for a high pick. I’m hoping they build a cohesive team with strong chemistry before seeking out a second star. Today’s stars are whiners, regularly injured with agents constantly working to move their player to a bigger market. I’d rather have a homegrown team of elite role player alongside Wemby.

[DAF86]

Also, if significant signings aren't made, the Spurs could easily have a losing record in the following season, tbh.

[exstatic]

Pretty sure Sochan will be that guy...


Now...how do the Spurs find a THIRD star?

Yup. He played 6 games in Feb, 6 games in March, and zero in Apr. They literally had to shut him down to keep from winning games.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/zE_Z8XJMfg4

Pop would sit this guy down after he’d score 10 straight in the first quarter. He would come back in the third quarter or something. High hopes for Sochan, tbh.

For someone with perceived lack of skill on the offensive end, he sure was showing a lot as the season went on.

[Larry O]

It appears that the immediate chemistry will be Sohan. There is history between the two, along with other mutual similarities. I think once Wemby gets aclamated with his teammates, other bondings will happen, ala Vassell, but I can see Sohan being Wemby's "Batman. " Sohan has Star and All Star potential. Granted, he will require to continue to work on his BB skills, but I believe that it will begin with these two. GSG!!!

[Mr. Body]

Already on the team.

[Obstructed_View]

https://youtu.be/zE_Z8XJMfg4

Pop would sit this guy down after he’d score 10 straight in the first quarter. He would come back in the third quarter or something. High hopes for Sochan, tbh.

For someone with perceived lack of skill on the offensive end, he sure was showing a lot as the season went on.
Yeah, it was a task to keep losing lineups on the floor. Branham blew up at the end of the season too. There are four guys who could get really good really soon, and that's without seeing how Wesley looks in summer league.

[exstatic]

https://youtu.be/zE_Z8XJMfg4

Pop would sit this guy down after he’d score 10 straight in the first quarter. He would come back in the third quarter or something. High hopes for Sochan, tbh.

For someone with perceived lack of skill on the offensive end, he sure was showing a lot as the season went on.

One of the huge flaws of this board is thinking that shooting = offense. There’s a lot more to offense than that, and Jeremy has all of it.

[Philthemage]

I like what the bucks did around Giannis. Instead of getting a second superstar, they got two high quality all stars in jrue and Middleton. And then surrounded the team with other quality two way players.

I feel that we can replicate it with Sochan, Keldon, Vassell, Brenham and Collins.

The biggest question is, who is going to be that crunch time bucket getter when the game is on the line.

[dbestpro]

Yeah, it was a task to keep losing lineups on the floor. Branham blew up at the end of the season too. There are four guys who could get really good really soon, and that's without seeing how Wesley looks in summer league.

This is why they passed on #33.

[Atl Spur]

Vic and a strong / versatile supporting cast should do the trick.

[RC_Drunkford]

I like what the bucks did around Giannis. Instead of getting a second superstar, they got two high quality all stars in jrue and Middleton. And then surrounded the team with other quality two way players.

I feel that we can replicate it with Sochan, Keldon, Vassell, Brenham and Collins.

The biggest question is, who is going to be that crunch time bucket getter when the game is on the line.

Wemby cause he can play on the perimeter. Other than that only Vassell and Branham can get their own shot. Branham should become a good closer.

[BacktoBasics]

Also, if significant signings aren't made, the Spurs could easily have a losing record in the following season, tbh.

If relatively healthy and not deliberately tanking I think this team even without Wemby is arguably closer to 500 than a losing record.

If we stay healthy I think this team should hover around or just above 500

[mo7888]

Excellent thread....lot's of good stuff in here..

[RC_Drunkford]

I got high hopes for Vassell and Sochan to be the 2nd/3rd star. They might also be able to do it by committee between Vassell, Sochan, Keldon and Branham who should all be able to drop 20 on any given night.

I think it's solely about PG. There ain't a lot of options under 30 out there. Maybe if Luka asks for a trade bringing back DJ or Zach LaVine, but he has a huge long contract and injury issues. Otherwise we'll have to draft that guy. Branham/Sochan/Wesley extensions will kick in in 26/27 until then, the Spurs have plenty of cap space and could afford to take on a max contract, but like I said the options that fit are limited.

I also think building a strong bench unit will be key, since the west is pretty flat and the contending teams really don't have a bench at all (Phoenix) or only about 2 players (Denver). A strong bench unit that can help you change line ups depending on the match up will be very valuable and we almost have that as well.

[rascal]

There is extreme blind optimism after getting lucky with Wemby thinking the current roster is good as it is.

Outside of Wemby the roster is the worst in the league. And no Sochan and Vassell are not future all star level players.

Still need to surround Wemby with a better core.

[Mr. Body]

There are two players already on the team who I think will make All-Star.

I think we're all underestimating the impact Wembanyama will have. It's almost impossible to comprehend yet. I know I'm still getting there. Like, my dad who hates anything but college basketball is talking about Wembanyama. The /nba_spurs sub on reddit is around 140,000 subscribers. I think it was closer to 100,000 before the draft lottery. It's going to go over 200,000 within a year, and those are Thunder numbers (a lot of millennials follow them due to Durant/Westbrook when they were kids). Wembanyama is going to bring in a lot of new fans.

First, Sochan and Vassell are All-Star capable already. With Victor's gravity, they're both going to shine. Not 100% on either, of course, but I think they're both going to shine. Other players on the roster, too. Second, we're not going to be begging for All-Star votes anymore. Wembanyama is going to get kids not only in France but China and other places voting for him. And then these other guys are going to get tack-on votes. Sochan is extremely presentable. People going to tune in to watch Wemby play and see what Sochan can do.

The days of SAS languishing in the dark are over.

[exstatic]

There are two players already on the team who I think will make All-Star.

I think we're all underestimating the impact Wembanyama will have. It's almost impossible to comprehend yet. I know I'm still getting there. Like, my dad who hates anything but college basketball is talking about Wembanyama. The /nba_spurs sub on reddit is around 140,000 subscribers. I think it was closer to 100,000 before the draft lottery. It's going to go over 200,000 within a year, and those are Thunder numbers (a lot of millennials follow them due to Durant/Westbrook when they were kids). Wembanyama is going to bring in a lot of new fans.

First, Sochan and Vassell are All-Star capable already. With Victor's gravity, they're both going to shine. Not 100% on either, of course, but I think they're both going to shine. Other players on the roster, too. Second, we're not going to be begging for All-Star votes anymore. Wembanyama is going to get kids not only in France but China and other places voting for him. And then these other guys are going to get tack-on votes. Sochan is extremely presentable. People going to tune in to watch Wemby play and see what Sochan can do.

The days of SAS languishing in the dark are over.

Jeremy has that cachet. He’s going to get LOTS of votes outside of SA.

[Thomas82]

That player is on the team or will be drafted. What makes a star is not how many points they score but rather how much better they make everyone else.

This is where I believe the Atlanta picks/pick swap will come in handy.

[mo7888]

I'm pumping the brakes a little bit on Sochan. I think he's got a chance to be an All-star, but he's going to have to be at least an average 3-point threat to accomplish it. Can he become that? Maybe... on Devin, it's all about health... if that's good then he's got a legit shot..

[John B]

Production wise, I think its Wemby, Vassell, Keldon and Sochan in that order. I’m optimistic Spurs already got their big 3 (or 4), with very qualified group of role players, Tre, Zollins, Malaki, Mamu, Wesley and now Sidy. Crazy but that feels like the Coffee Gang already.

I think Wemby, very much like Timmy, will corral everybody with his offense and defense. Vassell will have a free pass to just keep shooting. Keldon will electrify the 6th man role if he’s so willing. And Sochan? I think like Manu, he will be a beloved Spur. He has that aura of bringing the troops together, will sacrifice for the team.

I hate bringing an established “All Star” potentially stirring the pot. I like our guys already. I think the PATFO has assembled a very good high character young guys. Can’t wait.

[Mr. Body]

I'm pumping the brakes a little bit on Sochan. I think he's got a chance to be an All-star, but he's going to have to be at least an average 3-point threat to accomplish it. Can he become that? Maybe... on Devin, it's all about health... if that's good then he's got a legit shot..

No, he doesn't.

[mo7888]

No, he doesn't.

Yea, he does... he's good at alot of things but not elite enough to make it to that level without being a threat from outside..

[LeBowen]

Yea, he does... he's good at alot of things but not elite enough to make it to that level without being a threat from outside..

Draymond was a parennial all-star and one could argue that Jeremy's potential is higher in every aspect of the game.

[mo7888]

Draymond was a parennial all-star and one could argue that Jeremy's potential is higher in every aspect of the game.

Nobody can legitimately make that argument based on what we've seen from Sochan.

[Mr. Body]

I get that shooting is even more important in today's NBA, but ST becomes obsessed with it in this insane, almost psychotic way.

[LeBowen]

Nobody can legitimately make that argument based on what we've seen from Sochan.

He's already making passes Draymond never did and obviously has great vision.
Averaged nearly 2 offensive rebounds per game, same as Draymond in his best season.
We'll have to see if he can become a leader on defense like Draymond, but he's going to be way more versatile because he can actually match up with quick guards.
His handles are way better than Draymond's.

Shooting is a big question mark, but he's doing everything he can to improve asap. How many players in today's NBA wouldn't be embarrassed to shoot one-handed FTs?

He's also way more athletic. Obviously needs more strength, but he just turned 20, while Draymond barely played before he turned 24.

[Mr. Body]

Like, you could teleport Isiah Thomas onto this team from 1989 and most of SpursTalk would be like, NOPE, HE'S 6'1" and SHOOTS UNDEr 30% FROM DEEP.

[BatManu20]

If Blake Wesley would just learn to finish contested layups at the rim, he’d be a big piece of the puzzle moving forward tbh. He’s really good defensively, he’s already a plus 3-point shooter (on low volume), his midrange is coming along, and most importantly, he’s got explosive speed and one of the quickest first steps in the entire NBA already. He just misses everything around the rim and often takes unnecessarily wild shots once he gets there. Even his FT shooting was poor last season at 60%, which isn’t promising. His injury last season derailed his development. I’m hoping he takes a big step this season. If he doesn’t, I’ll assume he just doesn’t have the capability and he’s not part of the future of the Spurs.

As for that “2nd guy,” Vassell definitely has the highest potential of any player on the roster, especially with Wemby being the focus now. We’ll see if he can stay healthy enough games to prove it. As much as I love Sochan, I don’t ever see him being the second scorer on this team. He’s a 3rd or 4th imo, more of a Swiss army glue-guy and defensive menace than a go-to scorer. That could change if he he continues to develop his 3-point shot, but we’ll see.

Free Agency 2024 & 2025 wills be interesting. Depending on how Wemby looks, his health, and how much we improve over the next year or two, you could see a big name talent potentially wanted to come play with him tbh. Giannis, Paul George, Anthony Davis, Jaylen Brown, etc. Time will tell. This upcoming season will tell us a lot more about the direction of the franchise.

[mo7888]

He's already making passes Draymond never did and obviously has great vision.
Averaged nearly 2 offensive rebounds per game, same as Draymond in his best season.
We'll have to see if he can become a leader on defense like Draymond, but he's going to be way more versatile because he can actually match up with quick guards.
His handles are way better than Draymond's.

Shooting is a big question mark, but he's doing everything he can to improve asap. How many players in today's NBA wouldn't be embarrassed to shoot one-handed FTs?

He's also way more athletic. Obviously needs more strength, but he just turned 20, while Draymond barely played before he turned 24.

His defense cant even be compared to Draymond's at this point. His court vision, handle, etc are all good. As for his shooting, I'm NOT saying he can't become an average threat from deep. He is working hard on that and i believe it's within his reach. I'm just saying he's going to have to have that as part of his game to reach an all-star level.

We seem to have two prevailing views...the Mr Body camp that he's a can't miss all-star and the rascal camp that he's never going to be an All-star. I'm in neither.... I think he's got a chance, even a better chance than alot of others, but hes going to have to become a threat from deep to achieve it.

[LeBowen]

His defense cant even be compared to Draymond's at this point. His court vision, handle, etc are all good. As for his shooting, I'm NOT saying he can't become an average threat from deep. He is working hard on that and i believe it's within his reach. I'm just saying he's going to have to have that as part of his game to reach an all-star level.

We seem to have two prevailing views...the Mr Body camp that he's a can't miss all-star and the rascal camp that he's never going to be an All-star. I'm in neither.... I think he's got a chance, even a better chance than alot of others, but hes going to have to become a threat from deep to achieve it.

It can't be compared right now, I agree, but he has all the tools necessary.
And since he'll be playing with Victor, he's obviously going to be more of a 1v1 defender than playing safety like Draymond does.

Something like 15/8/5 with elite defense would be my projection for Jeremy.

[mo7888]

It can't be compared right now, I agree, but he has all the tools necessary.
And since he'll be playing with Victor, he's obviously going to be more of a 1v1 defender than playing safety like Draymond does.

Something like 15/8/5 with elite defense would be my projection for Jeremy.

Victor is going to help everybody.... but the discussion I was referring to was about Sochan beciming an all-star. For that, he'll need to learn to shoot. Can he? I think so, but I wanna see it before I get to excited about that..

[LeBowen]

Victor is going to help everybody.... but the discussion I was referring to was about Sochan beciming an all-star. For that, he'll need to learn to shoot. Can he? I think so, but I wanna see it before I get to excited about that..

Do you think a 15/8/5 DPOY candidate can be an all-star?

All-star selections are often about team's success.
If Spurs are one of the top teams in the league, he'll probably get one or two apperances.

There's no doubt that he'll be the vocal leader of the team and that's worth a lot when it comes to media and fan perception.
Would anyone be rating Draymond if he was a silent guy without any personality?

[mo7888]

Do you think a 15/8/5 DPOY candidate can be an all-star?

All-star selections are often about team's success.
If Spurs are one of the top teams in the league, he'll probably get one or two apperances.

There's no doubt that he'll be the vocal leader of the team and that's worth a lot when it comes to media and fan perception.
Would anyone be rating Draymond if he was a silent guy without any personality?

I think it really depends on how he gets it, but I doubt that hets him in.. hopefully hos shot develops

[RC_Drunkford]

I get that shooting is even more important in today's NBA, but ST becomes obsessed with it in this insane, almost psychotic way.

and you're obsessed with players who can't shoot

[RC_Drunkford]

the thing about Sochan is we have seen him shoot fadeaway jumpers out of a spin move and hit them consistently. That's not some role player move. If he can hit the 3 consistently he can become a problem on offense. He's already to quick for bigs and can post up smaller players. If he has a jump shot, there's no telling how far his offense can develop

[JuneJive]

This season will show what works and what/who doesn't.

Good thing is all the guys have potential, some more than the others, but all in all, a promising core to build around.

I think the second / third star will come within the existing core.

Eventually, a couple of bolstering moves will be made, no doubt.

[SpursFan86]

Seems funny to me that Spurs fans would think you need a clear-cut “2nd star”. Is everyone forgetting 2014? We didn’t have a 2nd star…hell we didn’t even really have a first star :lol You could argue Kawhi broke out in the playoffs but the reality is we didn’t have a single 20 ppg scorer in the regular season or postseason.

Not saying that was a normal title team; there were obviously a lot of things we’ll never be able to recreate with that team (big 3 leadership + motivation after the devastating loss in 2013) but the point is that we’ve seen a team be dominant with a well-rounded approach. If Victor truly is the real deal, he’d have a far greater impact than anyone on that 2014 title team. I see no reason why we couldn’t win a title just by surrounding him with several really good players in their own role as opposed to what people are talking about in here with needing some 20 ppg+ clear-cut all star.

If Vassell and Sochan reach their ceiling potential, that’d already put us well on our way. Let’s pretend Vassell turns into a Khris Middleton and Sochan turns into a Draymond Green-type guy…those 2 + Wembanyama would be a hell of a big 3, even if Sochan and Vassell aren’t 20+ ppg guys. Throw in Branham being a 6th man of the year caliber guy off the bench…that’s a really solid foundation.

I’m absolutely not saying we don’t need to make any moves and we’ll just win a title with this core in 2-3 years. Inevitably guys will disappoint and not reach their potential (for example maybe Branham flames out). Just arguing against the notion that we need a definitive 2nd option to be a title team. You can have a title-contender team made up of several elite “role players”, especially if we’re operating under the assumption that Victor will be an all-time great player.

[JPB]

Seems funny to me that Spurs fans would think you need a clear-cut “2nd star”. Is everyone forgetting 2014? We didn’t have a 2nd star…hell we didn’t even really have a first star :lol You could argue Kawhi broke out in the playoffs but the reality is we didn’t have a single 20 ppg scorer in the regular season or postseason.

Not saying that was a normal title team; there were obviously a lot of things we’ll never be able to recreate with that team (big 3 leadership + motivation after the devastating loss in 2013) but the point is that we’ve seen a team be dominant with a well-rounded approach. If Victor truly is the real deal, he’d have a far greater impact than anyone on that 2014 title team. I see no reason why we couldn’t win a title just by surrounding him with several really good players in their own role as opposed to what people are talking about in here with needing some 20 ppg+ clear-cut all star.

If Vassell and Sochan reach their ceiling potential, that’d already put us well on our way. Let’s pretend Vassell turns into a Khris Middleton and Sochan turns into a Draymond Green-type guy…those 2 + Wembanyama would be a hell of a big 3, even if Sochan and Vassell aren’t 20+ ppg guys. Throw in Branham being a 6th man of the year caliber guy off the bench…that’s a really solid foundation.

I’m absolutely not saying we don’t need to make any moves and we’ll just win a title with this core in 2-3 years. Inevitably guys will disappoint and not reach their potential (for example maybe Branham flames out). Just arguing against the notion that we need a definitive 2nd option to be a title team. You can have a title-contender team made up of several elite “role players”, especially if we’re operating under the assumption that Victor will be an all-time great player.

Kawhi wasn't the second star in the 2014 finals, he was the first, next to Duncan, TP and Manu.

TP got his finals MVP too, along with 6ths All Star appareances and finished 5th once in the regular season MVP race. That's what you call a star. Manu didn't have more than 2 all star selections because he was a sixth man but we all know he was a star.... Reason they were called the Big 3 (stars).

And 2014 was the most beautiful BB ever played, that's nothing you can mimick or reproduce deliberatly. It just magically happened with the right combniation of players at the right time. End of story, you need at least two big stars to ring.

[Obstructed_View]

There is extreme blind optimism after getting lucky with Wemby thinking the current roster is good as it is.

Outside of Wemby the roster is the worst in the league. And no Sochan and Vassell are not future all star level players.

Still need to surround Wemby with a better core.
I feel exactly the opposite from you. We shall see who is right.

[ginobilized]

I fully understand the title of this thread, 2nd star search.

However, I have a feeling that Tre Jones will be a better player with Wemby. Not a 2nd star by any means. But, he might have the most to gain from having Wemby on board.
If his 3pt shot develops, he might surprise some folks. He already excels at a bunch of other valuable skills: natural leader, gets the team in its sets, harassing defender, highly coachable, hustle machine. He averaged over 6 assists last season.

Can't wait to find out how this squad develops.

[Obstructed_View]

Nobody can legitimately make that argument based on what we've seen from Sochan.
I would.

[SpursFan86]

Kawhi wasn't the second star in the 2014 finals, he was the first, next to Duncan, TP and Manu.

TP got his finals MVP too, along with 6ths All Star appareances and finished 5th once in the regular season MVP race. That's what you call a star. Manu didn't have more than 2 all star selections because he was a sixth man but we all know he was a star.... Reason they were called the Big 3 (stars).

I’d rather avoid arguing the semantics of what defines a “star”, but in my opinion none of those guys were consistently playing at a true “star” level throughout the entire season. Members of the big 3 would have their games where they showed flashbacks to their prime, but none of them were top 15 players in the league that year IMO. Also TP didn’t win final FMVP in 2014.

My point is that the 2014 team’s dominance wasn’t rooted in having some first or 2nd clear-cut option who consistently took over games. It was a well-rounded team where you could hardly predict who would be the leading scorer on any given night. In the playoffs we had 4 guys averaging 14-17 ppg, and then another four averaging 7-10 ppg. If you want to argue that all four of the big 3 + Kawhi were “stars” in 2014 then go for it but personally I think that’s a stretch.

[Obstructed_View]

His defense cant even be compared to Draymond's at this point. His court vision, handle, etc are all good. As for his shooting, I'm NOT saying he can't become an average threat from deep. He is working hard on that and i believe it's within his reach. I'm just saying he's going to have to have that as part of his game to reach an all-star level.

We seem to have two prevailing views...the Mr Body camp that he's a can't miss all-star and the rascal camp that he's never going to be an All-star. I'm in neither.... I think he's got a chance, even a better chance than alot of others, but hes going to have to become a threat from deep to achieve it.

I think he can be an outstanding pro for a number of years even if his three doesn't ever develop, but watching him working on his form during the season, I simply don't believe that he is the type of guy who won't find a way to become a good shooter.

[Obstructed_View]

I’d rather avoid arguing the semantics of what defines a “star”, but in my opinion none of those guys were consistently playing at a true “star” level throughout the entire season. Members of the big 3 would have their games where they showed flashbacks to their prime, but none of them were top 15 players in the league that year IMO. Also TP didn’t win final FMVP in 2014.

My point is that the 2014 team’s dominance wasn’t rooted in having some first or 2nd clear-cut option who consistently took over games. It was a well-rounded team where you could hardly predict who would be the leading scorer on any given night. In the playoffs we had 4 guys averaging 14-17 ppg, and then another four averaging 7-10 ppg. If you want to argue that all four of the big 3 + Kawhi were “stars” in 2014 then go for it but personally I think that’s a stretch.
I'll come out and say that Kawhi showed signs of becoming a star in 2014 but he didn't show up the first two games of the finals. The FMVP was his as much as 2007's was TP's, which is to say only because of Timmy.

[Das Texan]

Its also hard to judge the guys on the current roster when none of them had a great star around them to pivot off of.

[Obstructed_View]

the thing about Sochan is we have seen him shoot fadeaway jumpers out of a spin move and hit them consistently. That's not some role player move. If he can hit the 3 consistently he can become a problem on offense. He's already to quick for bigs and can post up smaller players. If he has a jump shot, there's no telling how far his offense can develop
He and Wemby together are going to absolutely terrorize the NBA. I'm so excited to see it.

[SpursFan86]

End of story, you need at least two big stars to ring.

Who was Golden State’s 2nd big star in 2022? Klay Thompson averaging 19 ppg in the playoffs playing heavy minutes on mediocre efficiency? Sure he was a star by name recognition, but post injury Klay was not playing at the level of a “big star” unless you have a very generous definition. If Draymond was a “big star” in 2022 (far worse player than he was in his prime) then I see no reason Sochan can’t play at that level. Are we going to call Jordan Poole a “big star”?

[SpursFan86]

I'll come out and say that Kawhi showed signs of becoming a star in 2014 but he didn't show up the first two games of the finals. The FMVP was his as much as 2007's was TP's, which is to say only because of Timmy.

He absolutely showed signs of it and it was his coming out party to an extent, but you said it yourself: it’s not like it was a consistent night in/night out thing. He wasn’t particularly effective in our hardest series that year against OKC. I really don’t think you can call 2014 Kawhi a “big star” unless you’re just focusing on the highs and ignoring the times where he was dropping 12 ppg.

[RC_Drunkford]

I’d rather avoid arguing the semantics of what defines a “star”, but in my opinion none of those guys were consistently playing at a true “star” level throughout the entire season. Members of the big 3 would have their games where they showed flashbacks to their prime, but none of them were top 15 players in the league that year IMO. Also TP didn’t win final FMVP in 2014.

My point is that the 2014 team’s dominance wasn’t rooted in having some first or 2nd clear-cut option who consistently took over games. It was a well-rounded team where you could hardly predict who would be the leading scorer on any given night. In the playoffs we had 4 guys averaging 14-17 ppg, and then another four averaging 7-10 ppg. If you want to argue that all four of the big 3 + Kawhi were “stars” in 2014 then go for it but personally I think that’s a stretch.

I don't think the 2014 team can be used as an example. We had 4 hall of famers on that team. 1 before his prime and 3 past theirs, although you could say Tony was still at the end of his. You can't replicate that . Those guys were still superstars, old or not.

[RC_Drunkford]

Who was Golden State’s 2nd big star in 2022? Klay Thompson averaging 19 ppg in the playoffs playing heavy minutes on mediocre efficiency? Sure he was a star by name recognition, but post injury Klay was not playing at the level of a “big star” unless you have a very generous definition. If Draymond was a “big star” in 2022 (far worse player than he was in his prime) then I see no reason Sochan can’t play at that level. Are we going to call Jordan Poole a “big star”?

again 3 hall of famers. Old, coming off injuries or not, hall of famers are a different breed. Also both teams had a player who has won MVP before on the squad.

[Mr. Body]

Warriors won in 2022 mostly because someone had to. The whole league was terrible that year, Denver was hurt, and the Celtics are pathetic. Cheapest ring in a long time.

[R. DeMurre]

Seems funny to me that Spurs fans would think you need a clear-cut “2nd star”. Is everyone forgetting 2014? We didn’t have a 2nd star…hell we didn’t even really have a first star :lol You could argue Kawhi broke out in the playoffs but the reality is we didn’t have a single 20 ppg scorer in the regular season or postseason.

Not saying that was a normal title team; there were obviously a lot of things we’ll never be able to recreate with that team (big 3 leadership + motivation after the devastating loss in 2013) but the point is that we’ve seen a team be dominant with a well-rounded approach. If Victor truly is the real deal, he’d have a far greater impact than anyone on that 2014 title team. I see no reason why we couldn’t win a title just by surrounding him with several really good players in their own role as opposed to what people are talking about in here with needing some 20 ppg+ clear-cut all star.

If Vassell and Sochan reach their ceiling potential, that’d already put us well on our way. Let’s pretend Vassell turns into a Khris Middleton and Sochan turns into a Draymond Green-type guy…those 2 + Wembanyama would be a hell of a big 3, even if Sochan and Vassell aren’t 20+ ppg guys. Throw in Branham being a 6th man of the year caliber guy off the bench…that’s a really solid foundation.

I’m absolutely not saying we don’t need to make any moves and we’ll just win a title with this core in 2-3 years. Inevitably guys will disappoint and not reach their potential (for example maybe Branham flames out). Just arguing against the notion that we need a definitive 2nd option to be a title team. You can have a title-contender team made up of several elite “role players”, especially if we’re operating under the assumption that Victor will be an all-time great player.


Kawhi wasn't a star yet in the traditional sense, but his impact stats were already the best on the team. He had the same Drtg as Duncan, which was tied for first as the best on that team, and the highest ORtg on the team. He also led the team in BPM, VORP, and WS. His impact stats for the season were better than everybody's on the Heat that year except for LeBron.

[JPB]

I’d rather avoid arguing the semantics of what defines a “star”, but in my opinion none of those guys were consistently playing at a true “star” level throughout the entire season. Members of the big 3 would have their games where they showed flashbacks to their prime, but none of them were top 15 players in the league that year IMO. Also TP didn’t win final FMVP in 2014.

My point is that the 2014 team’s dominance wasn’t rooted in having some first or 2nd clear-cut option who consistently took over games. It was a well-rounded team where you could hardly predict who would be the leading scorer on any given night. In the playoffs we had 4 guys averaging 14-17 ppg, and then another four averaging 7-10 ppg. If you want to argue that all four of the big 3 + Kawhi were “stars” in 2014 then go for it but personally I think that’s a stretch.

that's precisely because they were playing team ball that none off them was standing out... But potentially they were all stars who accepted to cut their stats and accolades to the benefice of the team... And TP was actually an all star in 2014. Tim was not because Pop cut his time to 30 min a game and Manu becasue he was 6th man. then Kawhi happened during the finals.

Maybe more than stars, whe should talk about star power, specially when it matters the most.

[KobesAchilles]

I fully understand the title of this thread, 2nd star search.

However, I have a feeling that Tre Jones will be a better player with Wemby. Not a 2nd star by any means. But, he might have the most to gain from having Wemby on board.
If his 3pt shot develops, he might surprise some folks. He already excels at a bunch of other valuable skills: natural leader, gets the team in its sets, harassing defender, highly coachable, hustle machine. He averaged over 6 assists last season.

Can't wait to find out how this squad develops.
The dude is a back up. We need an actual PG of starter quality.

[Mr. Body]

the thing about Sochan is we have seen him shoot fadeaway jumpers out of a spin move and hit them consistently. That's not some role player move. If he can hit the 3 consistently he can become a problem on offense. He's already to quick for bigs and can post up smaller players. If he has a jump shot, there's no telling how far his offense can develop

Yeah, he has a really nice turnaround on the post. His three is completely fucked up but it's not like he doesn't have touch. His ft % shot up once he got his guiding hand off it. Just needs to tinker and improve.

Remember he barely got any instruction in England. It was basically him and his mom trying to figure basketball out together. If you watched any tape of him playing for Poland, you'd be, like, what is this guy? He was doing everything.

I'm not saying Sochan is a sure fire star but I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if he becomes one very soon. Not just a face of the team sort of way, which he already is one of them, but in producing on the court.

[SpursFan86]

again 3 hall of famers. Old, coming off injuries or not, hall of famers are a different breed

That’s a somewhat fair point and I already conceded that the 2014 team had other circumstances that would make that team hard/impossible to recreate. But I still disagree with the notion you can’t win a title by surrounding an elite talent with several “borderline stars” (for lack of a better term). Again this is ESPECIALLY true if we’re operating with the belief that Victor will turn into not just an elite player, but an all-time great.

Look at how easily Denver just won a title. Do we really think they couldn’t have potentially won it all this year if you replace Jamal Murray with someone a bit worse who is less of a “star”? They only lost 2 games the entire playoffs. And it’s not like the cast outside of their top 2 was THAT amazing…if you replace Murray with a lesser PG but give them a few additional strong bench pieces then they almost certainly would still win it all.

What about the 2019 Raptors? Are we going to argue that Lowry or Siakam were bonafide stars?

[Ditty]

Well we have possibly six first round picks in the next two drafts to find Wemby's Robin.

[mo7888]

I think he can be an outstanding pro for a number of years even if his three doesn't ever develop, but watching him working on his form during the season, I simply don't believe that he is the type of guy who won't find a way to become a good shooter.

So where do we disagree here?

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Reading a lot of the comments on here, any Spurs related board, and talking to residents in the city has me worried for all the pressure Victor has coming into the season.

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

we need more talent and I fear a lot of fans don’t realize this and will not understand it until we actually start playing regular games. Then fans will turn on Pop, Victor, and the team. Folks need to look at this realistically and expect us to of course be better, but still be drafting in the lotto next season.

[SpursFan86]

Kawhi wasn't a star yet in the traditional sense, but his impact stats were already the best on the team. He had the same Drtg as Duncan, which was tied for first as the best on that team, and the highest ORtg on the team. He also led the team in BPM, VORP, and WS. His impact stats for the season were better than everybody's on the Heat that year except for LeBron.

A lot of those advanced metrics get skewed by playing on the best team in the league. Let me ask you this: if you drop Kawhi on a league-average team in 2014, do you think he has those same impact metrics?

Look I’m not saying the 2014 Spurs were just filled with role players and that’s the blueprint to win a title :lol I’m really just trying to shoot down the notion that Victor needs a clear-cut “2nd banana” or “Robin” for us to win a title. I fully believe you can surround your #1 guy with multiple high level players without needing there to be an explicit “2nd option” who is a true star.

IMO it’s either one or the other: either you widen your definition of a star, in which case Sochan and Vassell absolutely have “star” potential…or you concede that you don’t need a true second star to win a title. If guys like Siakam/Lowry in 2019 or Middleton/Holiday in 2021 or Klay/Draymond in 2022 can be enough, then I see no reason why you’d think there’s no way Sochan or Vassell can’t potentially be the answer.

In the end this year will tell us a lot, and that’s why I don’t entirely fault the FO for wanting to see what they have. Not saying we shouldn’t look to bring in a few quality vets, but ultimately what needs to happen is we need to assess our existing core’s potential and see how they look in a better environment more conducive to winning (AKA playing with a healthy squad and not tanking). If we’re healthy this year and still look like shit then sure, we’ll know that we need much more firepower whether it be through the draft or FA.

Maybe I’ve been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid and am dramatically overestimating Sochan and Vassell’s potential :lol These guys are just so young and people here are acting like we already know what they’ll be. Look at a lot of those names I mentioned above from recent title teams and go back and see what they were doing at 20-22 years old.

[R. DeMurre]

A lot of those advanced metrics get skewed by playing on the best team in the league. Let me ask you this: if you drop Kawhi on a league-average team in 2014, do you think he has those same impact metrics?

Look I’m not saying the 2014 Spurs were just filled with role players and that’s the blueprint to win a title :lol I’m really just trying to shoot down the notion that Victor needs a clear-cut “2nd banana” or “Robin” for us to win a title. I fully believe you can surround your #1 guy with multiple high level players without needing there to be an explicit “2nd option” who is a true star.

IMO it’s either one or the other: either you widen your definition of a star, in which case Sochan and Vassell absolutely have “star” potential…or you concede that you don’t need a true second star to win a title. If guys like Siakam/Lowry in 2019 or Middleton/Holiday in 2021 or Klay/Draymond in 2022 can be enough, then I see no reason why you’d think there’s no way Sochan or Vassell can’t potentially be the answer.

In the end this year will tell us a lot, and that’s why I don’t entirely fault the FO for wanting to see what they have. Not saying we shouldn’t look to bring in a few quality vets, but ultimately what needs to happen is we need to assess our existing core’s potential and see how they look in a better environment more conducive to winning (AKA playing with a healthy squad and not tanking). If we’re healthy this year and still look like shit then sure, we’ll know that we need much more firepower whether it be through the draft or FA.

Maybe I’ve been drinking too much of the Kool-Aid and am dramatically overestimating Sochan and Vassell’s potential :lol These guys are just so young and people here are acting like we already know what they’ll be. Look at a lot of those names I mentioned above from recent title teams and go back and see what they were doing at 20-22 years old.


I actually agree with you-- adding high impact/not quite all stars can absolutely work. I'd much rather have Kirilenko, Manu, or Jrue Holiday over Iverson or DeMarcus Cousins.

But I don't think Kawhi's impact stats that year were an outlier or based on being surrounded by Duncan, Ginobili, etc-- he replicated the same type of numbers in Toronto and with the Clippers. He's always been a high impact guy.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think one thing that people don't realize is how much overlap the Spurs could create. Superteams are hard to build with the new CBA, but the Spurs actually have a chance to do that.

Not only do the Spurs have around 37 million in cap space right now. They also have another 44 million coming off the books next offseason. Although it will be somewhat offset by Tre Jones and Vassells extension, plus maybe Zollins. Sochan, Branham and Wesley are on rookie deals. Their extensions kick in in the 26/27 season. During that season Wemby will still be on his rookie contract.

That gives the Spurs the unique opportunity to bring in a max or near max contract. And I think they should do it. There's no reason to add any Van Vleet's or be conservative with the cap when you have a 2-3-year window where you can add an All-Star. Weather Sochan, Vassell or whoever become the 2nd star doesn't matter either, overload the roster with high level talent to maximize the championship window.

It's perfectly fine to see what you have for this season, but by next season they should absolutely try to add an All-Star caliber guy to the existing team. With that much parity in the league this can get you to contention ASAP while you pay 10 to 12 million for Sochan and Branham combined. The cap will only get tight once we have to max out Wemby in 27/28.

From 2025 to 2027 the ATL picks will hit. If you find another All-Star caliber guy there and a couple servicable role players you now can afford to let certain role players go and have the next guys up on rookie deals, who developed at the back end of the roster. If you have to move that All-Star guy that you signed in FA or got via trade, you should still be able to compensate that somewhat.

That's why I said the Spurs have the chance to build a dominant roster. If executed to perfection they can have another 15-year run of being a contender.

[Obstructed_View]

So where do we disagree here?

I'm not sure we do. I was building on your comment. I think I'm more certain that his three will come around then you are, but that's not a big disagreement.

[daslicer]

Reading a lot of the comments on here, any Spurs related board, and talking to residents in the city has me worried for all the pressure Victor has coming into the season.

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

we need more talent and I fear a lot of fans don’t realize this and will not understand it until we actually start playing regular games. Then fans will turn on Pop, Victor, and the team. Folks need to look at this realistically and expect us to of course be better, but still be drafting in the lotto next season.

Agreed I don't expect a rapid turnaround like the Spurs had when they drafted Duncan back in 97 and went from being a 20-win team to winning 56 wins. I think this current Spurs team can win somewhere between 30-42 games. High chance they won't make it to the playoffs next year.

[Obstructed_View]

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

Not having a true all star is a far fucking cry from not having any talent. I swear a lot of you guys have declared the Spurs players bad because of the point differential and the win loss record.

With Wemby and solid players, the Spurs are automatically even with every team in the division, if not every team in the conference.

[pookenstein]

I think a few things are clear:

-The Spurs are not going to have a losing season with Wemby on board, so relying on future drafts with their own picks to find the second guy is unlikely
-They are hitching their wagon on the current group of young guys. The young core might be here for a long time. I think the Spurs will want to show Wemby how different they are from the rest of the NBA, and keeping continuity or big parts of their roster intact is the “Spurs way” vs other teams where they’re constantly shifting things around. Wemby loves the Spurs for a reason, and it isn’t only because they won championships. Anyone who is a fan of the Spurs know the Spurs are the Spurs because of the unique things they do.


Tbh, the bar isn’t high anymore for a second guy to rise up. Jamal Murray isn’t a spectacular player compared to big time second fiddles like Shaq, Pippen, Paul Pierce. Who was second fiddle to Butler? Jalen Brown is about to be an overpaid player because he’s overrated. Anthony Davis is probably the only “second” star that qualifies as one who is better than or equal to the primary star on the Lakers (LeBron).

and finding the second star doesn’t always have to be through a top 5 pick in the lottery. There are a lot more ways a second star can be found, and most oftentimes, they can be homegrown. It’s not out of the question yet for most guys on the current roster. Someone may rise up and surprise us. Or it could be a guy we draft with the 20th pick in coming years.

There’s always an option of signing or trading for an established player, similar to what they did to get Aldridge. I’m sort of not a fan of this route because of what we could potentially give up and the chance they might bring their own ego to the team that the team wouldn’t be able to control. I think this path is more suited to when we have our 1 and 2 already.

I get your point and I think this is a good thread, but wtf were you smoking when you made Shaq second fiddle to Kobe? Not in one post, but twice. Kobe also had the alpha mentality, but Shaq was clearly first fiddle during their time in LA.

[rascal]

Reading a lot of the comments on here, any Spurs related board, and talking to residents in the city has me worried for all the pressure Victor has coming into the season.

yes we tanked some games by sitting people out, but we also don’t have a lot of talent on this roster. I do think we have some solid guys, but not another true all star, unless some guys majorly improve. I love Keldon and Sochan, I was big on us drafting Devin and happy I was right that we took him. Those guys are role players and at best fringe all star if they are lucky.

we need more talent and I fear a lot of fans don’t realize this and will not understand it until we actually start playing regular games. Then fans will turn on Pop, Victor, and the team. Folks need to look at this realistically and expect us to of course be better, but still be drafting in the lotto next season.

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

[Dejounte]

I get your point and I think this is a good thread, but wtf were you smoking when you made Shaq second fiddle to Kobe? Not in one post, but twice. Kobe also had the alpha mentality, but Shaq was clearly first fiddle during their time in LA.

Haha absolutely fair comment

[LeBowen]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

How many Pistons and Rockets games did you actually watch last season?
How many Spurs games, even?

[MannyIsGod]

You need to see these players play around Wemby before writing them off. That's the bottom line. Lots of players on this team where being a 2nd star is within their ceiling

[JPB]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

For what the spurs are trying to do, and to surround Wemby, also considering the time they spent on developing these players, no I wouldn't do those trades.

Amen has played zero NBA games and I don't like what I've seen from Ivey in his rookie year.

[tonight...you]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson
I'm sure you're going to get a groundswell of support.

[Mr. Body]

Rascal has moved on from hyping Shaeden Sharpe to hyping cellar-dwelling teams that will be just as bad this year as they were last year.

[rascal]

I'm sure you're going to get a groundswell of support.

Not with the homerism on a Spurs fan board.

[rascal]

Rascal has moved on from hyping Shaeden Sharpe to hyping cellar-dwelling teams that will be just as bad this year as they were last year.

I'm still high on Sharpe.

Portland is going to have an exciting future backcourt with Scoot and Sharpe

[tonight...you]

Not with the homerism on a Spurs fan board.
I know. You got your own thing going on.
It's fine.
Do what you do in worshiping athleticism and speed.
Good stuff.

[Mr. Body]

I'm still high on Sharpe.

Portland is going to have an exciting future backcourt with Scoot and Sharpe

They're going to give up sixty points a game just from backcourts alone.

[Mugen]

:lol I just hope Victor stays healthy and is half as good as the hype tbh.

[Dejounte]

I'm still high on Sharpe.

Portland is going to have an exciting future backcourt with Scoot and Sharpe

Find a sports fan board without homerism in it. Go join the Blazers forum then, dumbass.

[BacktoBasics]

You need to see these players play around Wemby before writing them off. That's the bottom line. Lots of players on this team where being a 2nd star is within their ceiling

Too many video game GM’s want to overhaul the roster while completing ignoring that we have some pretty high level players that produce and could excel in a non-tanking environment.

[rascal]

:lol I just hope Victor stays healthy and is half as good as the hype tbh.

Victor will be great.

It's the rest of the team that needs an upgrade.

[tmtcsc]

I think a few things are clear:

Tbh, the bar isn’t high anymore for a second guy to rise up. Jamal Murray isn’t a spectacular player compared to big time second fiddles like Shaq, Pippen, Paul Pierce.

:lmao @ calling Shaq a "second fiddle" & putting him in the same level of a Paul Pierce and Scottie Pippen. Salinas, you done lost your friggin' mind. Dude is arguably the most physically dominant center to ever play the game. How many MVP's did Pippen or Pierce ever win? Shaq won 3 consecutive Finals MVP's and was practically unstoppable. But go on..

[wildbill2u]

In five pages of this thread not one poster brought up Keldon as a possible, much less probable, second or even third star--any yet he is the only Spur on the roster to have a 20+ ppg average. This seems like a deliberate oversight/omission by a lot of posters who often laud him and say he should remain a starter. And further that he shouldn't be trade bait. WTF. I think you MIGHT be able to cobble up a trade for our second star by using KJ plus some draft choices we have in the bank. If everyone posting that our future second banana is either gonna be Devin or Sochan is consistent with their analysis, then trading KJ is a no brainer. We need to get him out of the way of some players with better skills and higher ceilings.

[T Park]

In five pages of this thread not one poster brought up Keldon as a possible, much less probable, second or even third star--any yet he is the only Spur on the roster to have a 20+ ppg average. This seems like a deliberate oversight/omission by a lot of posters who often laud him and say he should remain a starter. And further that he shouldn't be trade bait. WTF. I think you MIGHT be able to cobble up a trade for our second star by using KJ plus some draft choices we have in the bank. If everyone posting that our future second banana is either gonna be Devin or Sochan is consistent with their analysis, then trading KJ is a no brainer. We need to get him out of the way of some players with better skills and higher ceilings.

He only avg that much cause of the amount of shots he got.

Hes a good player with a low ceiling.

I like Keldon but hes not gonna be a star. Hes not better than a prime Sean Elliott, thats all.

Great pick up at pick 29, but not nor will be a star. thats the reality.

[Obstructed_View]

Exactly and the Spurs are also going to be cautious with Wemby's minutes. They aren't going to play him into the ground early on so those expecting a.500 record or better are not being realistic on how good this roster is.

Outside of Wemby this roster is the weakest in the league. I'd trade the Spurs top three players outside of Wemby for any other team's top three players.

Who wouldn't trade Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, for Cade, Duren, Ivey?

or Houston for Jabari Smith, Green, Amen Thompson for Sochan, Vassell and Johnson

Lol you're a fucking idiot.

[Obstructed_View]

:lmao @ calling Shaq a "second fiddle" & putting him in the same level of a Paul Pierce and Scottie Pippen. Salinas, you done lost your friggin' mind. Dude is arguably the most physically dominant center to ever play the game. How many MVP's did Pippen or Pierce ever win? Shaq won 3 consecutive Finals MVP's and was practically unstoppable. But go on..

The Lakers ring with any number of other shooting guards. Without Shaq they are also-rans in the west.

[wildbill2u]

He only avg that much cause of the amount of shots he got.

Hes a good player with a low ceiling.

I like Keldon but hes not gonna be a star. Hes not better than a prime Sean Elliott, thats all.

Great pick up at pick 29, but not nor will be a star. thats the reality.

Precisely. Time to move him if the consensus is that you need Devin and Sochan developing into that second and third star. He'll never be worth more in a trade than this summer.

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnwJzv0mHsA

[EricB]

Precisely. Time to move him if the consensus is that you need Devin and Sochan developing into that second and third star. He'll never be worth more in a trade than this summer.


which I’m fine with, however, I’ll say this, I’m not giving him up for nothing. Not selling him off just to clear space.

his perfect role is 6th man, and if he embraces it this team is all the better for it.

[Dejounte]

which I’m fine with, however, I’ll say this, I’m not giving him up for nothing. Not selling him off just to clear space.

his perfect role is 6th man, and if he embraces it this team is all the better for it.

He embraced it during the Olympics. It’s a non-issue, really. Keldon’s well aware of talented players on his team.

[Obstructed_View]

Keldon is the one player the Spurs would be stupid to part with for the following reason: he lost for you last year. He plays his guts out and he went along with tanking for the good of the team. You can unleash him this year and tell him that he can win. He will go through a brick wall for this team.

You guys criminally undervalue Keldon as a player while simultaneously overrating his trade value. It's comical.

Keldon Johnson may never become a hall of famer, but it won't be for lack of commitment or work.

[ducks]

There is extreme blind optimism after getting lucky with Wemby thinking the current roster is good as it is.

Outside of Wemby the roster is the worst in the league. And no Sochan and Vassell are not future all star level players.

Still need to surround Wemby with a better core.

The one question is will wemby make others better around him ?

[rascal]

The one question is will wemby make others better around him ?

How so

Expectations are now Wemby making other players more than what they are.

[PhantomDashCam]

I'd wager based on the current criteria for "Star" or All-Star at the very least (ie. Team record Pre All-Star Break, PPG Leaders, perception/relationship to WC coaches), Keldon will be in contention for a reserve selection as soon as next season.
Wemby will likely be in contention for a starting position.

[Pauleta14]

More than a star, imo Wemby/the team needs a veteran who could show him the ropes, be like a big brother
That many young players is bad on the short term (next season)

[Wu36]

Run what you have this year. Add a couple vets for knowledge. I’d think Devin could grow into that 2 or 3 option. But don’t add big money outsiders till the league truly respects Wemby. No need for outside ego right now

[Mr. Body]

More than a star, imo Wemby/the team needs a veteran who could show him the ropes, be like a big brother
That many young players is bad on the short term (next season)

They have McDermott and Graham, who by all accounts are super dudes. I do want to add another, at least. Patty Mills is on his lsat $7 mill this next year and Brooklyn is moving in another direction. Would love to flip a highly protected second to get him back; Nets should be happy to move on. Then there's Nicolas Batum, who is on an expiring for the Clippers. He's still a valuable player, but they're deep in cap hell. Unlikely, but it would be cool to grab him, too, and he could actually spell time at the SF.

[TekXX]

Hopefully all the players get the message that this upcoming season is the chance to prove themselves and stop the inconsistent bullshit or else they're trade fodder after the year. This won't be a carefree tank season.

[Mr. Body]

Hopefully all the players get the message that this upcoming season is the chance to prove themselves and stop the inconsistent bullshit or else they're trade fodder after the year. This won't be a carefree tank season.

I'm sure they have no idea what's going on. I'm glad you can explain it to them.

[TekXX]

I'm sure they have no idea what's going on. I'm glad you can explain it to them.

Says the guy who wants a washed Patty Mills, should we give him another $50 million?

[kht]

Like others have said, Vassell showed off his offensive bag last season, KJ a bonafide 18-20 scorer. And Sochan is literally light years better on offense than we ever would have thought.

[Mr. Body]

Like others have said, Vassell showed off his offensive bag last season, KJ a bonafide 18-20 scorer. And Sochan is literally light years better on offense than we ever would have thought.

If the offense clicks, and it should be good, it could be hard to handle for a lot of teams. The question is PG but we have enough options to keep things going.

[poopbox]

Sochan and Vassell can grow into the no 2 and no 3 role. Hard to know if it will be enough to win a title though.

[spursince#99]

Anfernee Simons. Trade whatever outside of Sochan and Wemby. That’s your trio. Go win playoff games.

[exstatic]

Anfernee Simons. Trade whatever outside of Sochan and Wemby. That’s your trio. Go win playoff games.

Tiny no defense guard? Nope.

The league is moving towards what is known as jumbo creators, guys 6’7” and above with handles and court vision.

[spursince#99]

Tiny no defense guard? Nope.

The league is moving towards what is known as jumbo creators, guys 6’7” and above with handles and court vision.

Good luck with finding that any time soon.

[Mr. Body]

Good luck with finding that any time soon.

Spurs already have two possibilities on the team already. Actually, three.

[exstatic]

Good luck with finding that any time soon.

We have one already in Sochan, and a couple of mini models in Vassell and Malaki.

[spursince#99]

Spurs already have two possibilities on the team already. Actually, three.

This is homer bias. Neither have the necessary handles or first step to consistently break down a defense.

[Mr. Body]

This is homer bias. Neither have the necessary handles or first step to consistently break down a defense.

Guessing you didn't watch any games. Sochan got into the lane any time he wanted. That's kind of his thing.

And facilitating is not really dribbling into the lane anyway. The point of a big facilitator is seeing over the defense. Mamu and Wembanyama already do this, too.

[exstatic]

This is homer bias. Neither have the necessary handles or first step to consistently break down a defense.

Chris Paul hasn’t had burst in a decade. Kyle Anderson has never had it, and yet neither has a problem getting where they want to go. You don’t have to have burst, you have to have a difference in speed. Kyle Anderson has made a living out of slowing players down to his speed, and then taking one of those giant giraffe sized strides to get past them. A really good change of pace move/dribble is as effective as elite burst.

[kht]

Anfernee Simons. Trade whatever outside of Sochan and Wemby. That’s your trio. Go win playoff games.

that would be a lateral move if you include vassell/kj...

its gotta be our rookies last week (minus sochan) and future picks

[spursince#99]

that would be a lateral move if you include vassell/kj...

its gotta be our rookies last week (minus sochan) and future picks

You are severely underrating just how good he is, while simultaneously overrating Keldon and Vassell.

[CorrectCrusader]

Like, you could teleport Isiah Thomas onto this team from 1989 and most of SpursTalk would be like, NOPE, HE'S 6'1" and SHOOTS UNDEr 30% FROM DEEP.

Surprisingly the league has changed since 1989

[Mr. Body]

Surprisingly the league has changed since 1989

Wait... you think Isiah Thomas wouldn't be great in 2023? Oh Lord.

[CorrectCrusader]

Wait... you think Isiah Thomas wouldn't be great in 2023? Oh Lord.

Where did I say that lol

[BacktoBasics]

This is homer bias. Neither have the necessary handles or first step to consistently break down a defense.

With DDR gone we have a team predominantly built on ball movement and team ball. Not to say iso breakdowns aren’t important but I’ll take high level ball movement and team oriented play that stat padding iso guys any day.

[KobesAchilles]

I think for our team we have a lot of holes filled except a second star

I think Vassell is a solid 3rd option. I think Tre is a very good back up PG. Wemby is obviously our one. Sochan is our elite defender that is switchable. KJ is a solid option as a 6th man. And we will eventually fill out our bench with vets who know how to win.

Dejounte is right though. We need a 2 guy. And anyone bringing up 14 is wrong for the simple fact that the big 3 (although not in their prime) were all battle tested to the extreme. They as a core had won 3 rings and been to 4 finals before 2014. You can’t fake that kinda experience. And nobody on our team is as smart as Manu, Tim, and Tony, nor as experienced.

Our team as constructed maybe makes the 6th-8th seed and that gets us one round in the playoffs. That’s not a bad thing but they aren’t going to magically transform and get deep postseason play without adding to this roster talent. A seasoned vet would be nice. I’m hoping we get PG13. I don’t care about the money bc we have it. But we have picks, we have cap space, we have young talent and our franchise guy. PG13 maybe never won a ring but he’s been to 3 CFs and is battle tested.

[Extra Stout]

What’s the point of getting PG13 if he’s injured all the time

[Ariel]

:lmao @ calling Shaq a "second fiddle" & putting him in the same level of a Paul Pierce and Scottie Pippen. Salinas, you done lost your friggin' mind. Dude is arguably the most physically dominant center to ever play the game. How many MVP's did Pippen or Pierce ever win? Shaq won 3 consecutive Finals MVP's and was practically unstoppable. But go on..
Yeah, if anything Kobe was second fiddle, Shaq was a beastly no. 1 even going back to his Orlando years.

[Ariel]

What’s the point of getting PG13 if he’s injured all the time
PG13 is the answer...
to the question: "how do we burn our assets as quick as possible and screw our future at the same time?"

[Ariel]

Anfernee Simons. Trade whatever outside of Sochan and Wemby. That’s your trio. Go win playoff games.
Portland probably already is thinking about moving him (can't have Lillard, Simons and Scoot on your roster, even 2 of them might be a stretch), you wouldn't have to pay all that much to get him (no way do I give up a core piece for him, for sure not Vassell and Keldon, and not a high pick). His contract is bad (26M a year on average for 3 years) and he's an undersized combo guard with bad defense, hardly the backbone of a contender.

[Joseph Kony]

Wait... you think Isiah Thomas wouldn't be great in 2023? Oh Lord.
fucking clown always twisting peoples words :lmao what an idiot