Shams: Spurs Trade for Reggie Bullock and Unprotected 2030 First Round Pick Swap

[exstatic]

I posted elsewhere that Dallas really, really wanted Thybulle before Portland matched. Wild guess is that Portland is getting involved to get him to Dallas in exchange for something.

They can't. Once the contract is matched, he can't be traded to Dallas for a year. Dallas must be after someone else.

[exstatic]

Is this shit falling through?

Dallas can't cancel it without losing Grant, which they don't want to do. Boston doesn't want any salary. If they did, they would have just re-signed Grant. The contract Dallas offered him was larger than the MLE, so they can't just sign him.

[Ariel]

Trades are made by teams conference calling with a League official. If that call has happened, that trade official pending a physical. If they're still negotiating it, they probably haven't made any calls. During the calls teams can alter the deal, though it's not realistic to think there'd be major changes if it got to that point.
Even if not formally approved, you'd think if there was a handshake agreement in place and it was publicly communicated it as such, barring some major unforeseen event (injury, catastrophe of some nature) teams won't go back on their word because it'd be bad for business.
A lot of things depend on trust, and many teams may let go of opportunities because of a prior commitment, so it'd be pretty costly in terms of reputation and future deals for one team to unilaterally go back on an already agreed upon trade. Even if they got cold feet they should take the bullet and move on, like say Portland with Jerami Grant.

[CorrectCrusader]

Wemby would be what? 26 and hopefully in his prime while Luka will be an old 31.
Wemby being 26 in 2030 blows my mind

[Obstructed_View]

Even if not formally approved, you'd think if there was a handshake agreement in place and it was publicly communicated it as such, barring some major unforeseen event (injury, catastrophe of some nature) teams won't go back on their word because it'd be bad for business.
A lot of things depend on trust, and many teams may let go of opportunities because of a prior commitment, so it'd be pretty costly in terms of reputation and future deals for one team to unilaterally go back on an already agreed upon trade. Even if they got cold feet they should take the bullet and move on, like say Portland with Jerami Grant.

Mark Cuban has precisely zero honor. They made a trade for a protected pick and then literally threw games in order to not have to live up to that trade.

[spurraider21]

Mark Cuban has precisely zero honor. They made a trade for a protected pick and then literally threw games in order to not have to live up to that trade.
thats an inherent risk when protected picks are traded. way different from reneging on an agreement

and that protected pick is still owed, just didnt convey this year

[Seventyniner]

Mark Cuban has precisely zero honor. They made a trade for a protected pick and then literally threw games in order to not have to live up to that trade.

The Warriors shamelessly tanked for almost half the 2012 season to get to the 7th worst record because they owed Utah a top 7 protected pick. They got Harrison Barnes and were not punished by the basketball gods.

[Obstructed_View]

thats an inherent risk when protected picks are traded. way different from reneging on an agreement

and that protected pick is still owed, just didnt convey this year
It won't be number ten. If teams are stupid enough to trade with Dallas again, they get what they deserve.

[Ice009]

I thought this trade was done. Is it likely that the Mavs pull out after this has already been announced. It wouldn't be a good look for them at all if they did so.

[spurraider21]

It won't be number ten. If teams are stupid enough to trade with Dallas again, they get what they deserve.
it cant be number ten. its top ten protected

[exstatic]

I thought this trade was done. Is it likely that the Mavs pull out after this has already been announced. It wouldn't be a good look for them at all if they did so.

There's some thought that they're expanding the trade to include other teams, maybe even merging into some giant Dame trade. If they pull out, they lose Williams, after losing Thybulle to Portland's match. I don't think they want that. Boston doesn't want salary back, and what Dallas offered Williams is more than the MLE, so they can't just sign him. There is also the risk that if they try, Boston matches, and flips him to someone else later.

[spurraider21]

There's some thought that they're expanding the trade to include other teams, maybe even merging into some giant Dame trade. If they pull out, they lose Williams, after losing Thybulle to Portland's match. I don't think they want that. Boston doesn't want salary back, and what Dallas offered Williams is more than the MLE, so they can't just sign him. There is also the risk that if they try, Boston matches, and flips him to someone else later.
its less than 1 mil above the MLE over the course of 4 years. its probable that williams would still agree to it if push came to shove, imo

[R. DeMurre]

Mark Cuban has precisely zero honor. They made a trade for a protected pick and then literally threw games in order to not have to live up to that trade.


I'm no Cuban defender, but the Spurs threw an entire season in a gamble and won it by landing Wembanyama. It's hard to justify tanking on a large scale to improve an organization and then also criticize it on a small scale when done by someone else.

[BatManu20]

Yea honestly if I were the Mavs, I would’ve purposely lost that game too tbh. They needed that pick badly and it was obvious they would’ve been a first round exit with how awful their defense was. It’s shitty optics for sure and we’d never really seen that before, but strategically it was 100% the right move tbh.

[exstatic]

its less than 1 mil above the MLE over the course of 4 years. its probable that williams would still agree to it if push came to shove, imo

And Boston can still match, and likely would, being deprived of picks, just to fuck Cuban back. Hell, we’d probably agree to broker the inevitable trade for cheap , again to get back at Cuban.

[spurraider21]

And Boston can still match, and likely would, being deprived of picks, just to fuck Cuban back. Hell, we’d probably agree to broker the inevitable trade for cheap , again to get back at Cuban.
all true

[RC_Drunkford]

Gotta thank the Mavs for throwing that game, cause otherwise Wemby would be a Rocket right now

[Obstructed_View]

I'm no Cuban defender, but the Spurs threw an entire season in a gamble and won it by landing Wembanyama. It's hard to justify tanking on a large scale to improve an organization and then also criticize it on a small scale when done by someone else.
Meh. Let's see if anyone trades a conditional pick with him ever again.

[duncan2150]

https://hoopswire.com/mavs-could-be-revisiting-trade-talks-for-pistons-bojan-bogdanovic/

[spurraider21]

guess we had time for that reaves offer sheet after all :lol

[Mugen]

guess we had time for that reaves offer sheet after all :lol

This :lol

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1679208429829648386

[exstatic]

Noice!

[spurraider21]

didnt think anybody would reneg or anything but nice to see it official

really curious to see what happens with the roster spots. we either have to consolidate via trade, or just start outright waiving guys.

the 2 obvious waives to get us down to 15 would be Stevens and Birch. gets interesting past that if we need to make room for Cissoko, or even Barlow. Mamu probably goes next, followed by one of Cedi or Bullock

hopefully we find ways to make trades

[John B]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1679208429829648386

So the FRP swap is unprotected??? Sweet :lol

[exstatic]

didnt think anybody would reneg or anything but nice to see it official

really curious to see what happens with the roster spots. we either have to consolidate via trade, or just start outright waiving guys.

the 2 obvious waives to get us down to 15 would be Stevens and Birch. gets interesting past that if we need to make room for Cissoko, or even Barlow. Mamu probably goes next, followed by one of Cedi or Bullock

hopefully we find ways to make trades

I think Stevens has a 1 August guarantee date, so he probably goes first. I also think Birch is another certain cut if he isn't combined into a trade. They have some sort of plan, so I doubt they waive Mamu after just signing him, although it's not impossible.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

So three SRPs (all in years where they have multiple SRPs and in some years when they will have multiple FRPs) for Bullock and his expiring contract plus an unprotected Mavs swap. That Mavs swap could end up being a big nothingburger, but they can't possibly use all those picks anyway. This is a no risk, all reward move.

[spurraider21]

So three SRPs (all in years where they have multiple SRPs and in some years when they will have multiple FRPs) for Bullock and his expiring contract plus an unprotected Mavs swap. That Mavs swap could end up being a big nothingburger, but they can't possibly use all those picks anyway. This is a no risk, all reward move.
its also possible they recoup 1-2 SRPs for bullock at the deadline if he plays well

[Excessive Egotist]

The Spurs probably have multiple options for reducing their roster in discussion.

I'd guess they have a couple 3 for 1 consolidation trades in conversation, which would also create room for Barlow.

~21M in outgoing of Graham, Birch, and Stevens plus SRPs, either sending or receiving, depending on who is coming back in the deal.

Alternately, addressing roster spots by continuing to rent cap space. Or, just waiving Stevens and Birch. Or, finding a team to take Birch, Bullock, or Osman, so long as the compensation piece is fair. The Spurs can be patient.

[Bruno]

A classical trade would have been Spurs getting 1 or 2 SRP to take Bullock contract which means Spurs paid 4 or 5 SRPs to get that swap.

[exstatic]

A classical trade would have been Spurs getting 1 or 2 SRP to take Bullock contract which means Spurs paid 4 or 5 SRPs to get that swap.

Who cares about a classical trade? Yes, it's a risk they get nothing, but they essentially put down 3 $1 bills, and are rolling the dice on $1000, and it's not all or nothing. They may win $100 or $10.

The stat heads on the board crunched the numbers, and the mean return is a jump of 5 draft places. Dallas swapped 2 positions to offload Bertans on draft night, about the same $$ as Bullock, so if we just hit the mean, we go an additional 3 slots for 3 SRPs. I like our chances of being the better team in 2030. I like them a lot.

[timvp]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1679208429829648386

Nice, love it. A swing for the fences type of move with very little downside. None of those second rounders appear to be owned by teams who are tanking, so unlikely to amount to anything. Getting a completely unprotected first round swap from a team built around Kyrie and soon-to-be-disgruntled Luka sounds great.

Consolidating second rounders (which would become worthless if not consolidated at some point) is an extra layer of win.

Reggie Bullock isn't very good or anything but his contract is fine and he can easily eat minutes at a satisfactory level -- and will probably be able to be turned into more second round picks at the deadline if the Spurs are able to give him enough minutes.

Bullock and Osman are the type of high character vets that are good to have around a young player like Wemby. You want to make sure Wemby has capable wings around him and Bullock and Osman are capable, if it comes to them playing.

[scott]

Who cares about a classical trade? Yes, it's a risk they get nothing, but they essentially put down 3 $1 bills, and are rolling the dice on $1000, and it's not all or nothing. They may win $100 or $10.

The stat heads on the board crunched the numbers, and the mean return is a jump of 5 draft places. Dallas swapped 2 positions to offload Bertans on draft night, about the same $$ as Bullock, so if we just hit the mean, we go an additional 3 slots for 3 SRPs. I like our chances of being the better team in 2030. I like them a lot.

The 5 draft spot jump is a good way of looking at it, but also (credit all to Ariel (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=3526) for this) we've been able to value an unprotected Pick Swap as roughly equivalent of the #19 pick (not in terms of EV, but in terms of pick valuation - if each pick has a number of "points" it is worth - then an unprotected pick swap has a point value equal to the #19 pick per Ariel's analysis using the pick valuation model found here: https://thedatajocks.com/nba-draft-pick-values/)

So... one way of looking at this is the Spurs traded 3 SRPs for Bullock and the value equivalent of the #19 pick in the draft (not accounting for the time value of picks). I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

[Russ]

Nice, love it. A swing for the fences type of move with very little downside. None of those second rounders appear to be owned by teams who are tanking, so unlikely to amount to anything. Getting a completely unprotected first round swap from a team built around Kyrie and soon-to-be-disgruntled Luka sounds great.

Consolidating second rounders (which would become worthless if not consolidated at some point) is an extra layer of win.

Reggie Bullock isn't very good or anything but his contract is fine and he can easily eat minutes at a satisfactory level -- and will probably be able to be turned into more second round picks at the deadline if the Spurs are able to give him enough minutes.

Bullock and Osman are the type of high character vets that are good to have around a young player like Wemby. You want to make sure Wemby has capable wings around him and Bullock and Osman are capable, if it comes to them playing.

Got a lot a nada.

"Swing for the fences" doesn't exactly come to mind.

Mark Cuban may not mold a title contender every year but he's vain and he hates to be irrelevant, he hates to be really bad -- he'd rather just hang around the edges and smile for the cameras. Not exactly the type of owner you want to have draft pick swap with.

But nothing too bad in all of this, either. You're right, second round picks are pretty "worthless" in certain scenarios.

Does Bullock have any value as an expiring contract? If so, that might be the only tangible thing of value in any of this.

[Kurik]

Let’s assume in 2030 Spurs are picking 25 and Mavs are picking 21, isn’t moving up four spots at that range roughly worth at least 2 SRPs?

[Russ]

Let’s assume in 2030 Spurs are picking 25 and Mavs are picking 21, isn’t moving up four spots at that range roughly worth at least 2 SRPs?

Maybe it's better to simply be lucky when the picks are that close in that range.

The two teams may not even be going after the same players at that point.

[exstatic]

Got a lot a nada.

"Swing for the fences" doesn't exactly come to mind.

Mark Cuban may not mold a title contender every year but he's vain and he hates to be irrelevant, he hates to be really bad -- he'd rather just hang around the edges and smile for the cameras. Not exactly the type of owner you want to have draft pick swap with.

But nothing too bad in all of this, either. You're right, second round picks are pretty "worthless" in certain scenarios.

Does Bullock have any value as an expiring contract? If so, that might be the only tangible thing of value in any of this.
Their franchise overall record is barely .500. Although a lottery pick would be nice, if we’re at 25, and they’re at 18, a playoff team, that’s a huge win.

[exstatic]

Maybe it's better to simply be lucky when the picks are that close in that range.

The two teams may not even be going after the same players at that point.

It’s always good to move up 4 spots. To try to spin that it doesn’t matter is ridiculous.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Got a lot a nada.

"Swing for the fences" doesn't exactly come to mind.

Mark Cuban may not mold a title contender every year but he's vain and he hates to be irrelevant, he hates to be really bad -- he'd rather just hang around the edges and smile for the cameras. Not exactly the type of owner you want to have draft pick swap with.

But nothing too bad in all of this, either. You're right, second round picks are pretty "worthless" in certain scenarios.

Does Bullock have any value as an expiring contract? If so, that might be the only tangible thing of value in any of this.

Obviously there are no guarantees and this is a gamble (most agree that it's a low-risk/high reward type). That being said, the Mavs have drafted in the top 10 of the draft 3 times in the last 7 years. That makes it worth the gamble in my eyes.

EDIT: Considering the fact that the Mavs did not have first round picks in two of the drafts in the last 7 years, they have only picked outside of the top 10 twice during that span. :wow

[Darkwaters]

Got a lot a nada.

"Swing for the fences" doesn't exactly come to mind.

Mark Cuban may not mold a title contender every year but he's vain and he hates to be irrelevant, he hates to be really bad -- he'd rather just hang around the edges and smile for the cameras. Not exactly the type of owner you want to have draft pick swap with.

But nothing too bad in all of this, either. You're right, second round picks are pretty "worthless" in certain scenarios.

Does Bullock have any value as an expiring contract? If so, that might be the only tangible thing of value in any of this.

I doubt any team whose 1st Rounder had an unprotected pick swap against it would just casually tank for the Spurs' benefit. Be it Cuban or anybody else.

[Russ]

It’s always good to move up 4 spots. To try to spin that it doesn’t matter is ridiculous.

The Spurs just essentially moved down 11 spots (from 33 to 44) and didn't blink an eye. Their #33 this year was within about ten picks of that four pick delta in hypothetical regarding the late 1st round.



I doubt any team whose 1st Rounder had an unprotected pick swap against it would just casually tank for the Spurs' benefit. Be it Cuban or anybody else.

Cuban would (will) make it his business to see that the hated Spurs (and their dirty Riverwalk) don't benefit from this pick swap!

[Extra Stout]

Nice, love it. A swing for the fences type of move with very little downside. None of those second rounders appear to be owned by teams who are tanking, so unlikely to amount to anything. Getting a completely unprotected first round swap from a team built around Kyrie and soon-to-be-disgruntled Luka sounds great.

Consolidating second rounders (which would become worthless if not consolidated at some point) is an extra layer of win.
Seems more like a regular at-bat for a .750 hitter. They could hit a home run and get the #1 pick. They also could hit a single and move up a few spots. Or anywhere in between. It’s unlikely with a 26-year-old Wemby on the team that they’d be drafting ahead of very many teams, so the swap is unlikely to fizzle.

[spurraider21]

Cuban would (will) make it his business to see that the hated Spurs (and their dirty Riverwalk) don't benefit from this pick swap!
tank jobs arent always intentional

when the celtics moved up to the #1 overall pick due to a pick swap with the nets, why were the nets so kind to them? they werent. they were just a bad team.

and this doesnt have to involve the mavs being a bottom 5 team or anything like that to be fruitful. if a 26 year old wemby is getting into his prime and the spurs are a playoff team picking in the mid 20's, moving from 24 to 16 or something would also be a big deal and worth the cost of 3 SRPs. the mavs would also be coming off the 2029 offseason where they are currently slated to not have any draft picks at all

[Russ]

tank jobs arent always intentional

when the celtics moved up to the #1 overall pick due to a pick swap with the nets, why were the nets so kind to them? they werent. they were just a bad team.

and this doesnt have to involve the mavs being a bottom 5 team or anything like that to be fruitful. if a 26 year old wemby is getting into his prime and the spurs are a playoff team picking in the mid 20's, moving from 24 to 16 or something would also be a big deal and worth the cost of 3 SRPs. the mavs would also be coming off the 2029 offseason where they are currently slated to not have any draft picks at all

Okay, you're right, it's better to have a pick swap than not to have one.

But it would be interesting to see (seven years from now) how (1) the 2nd rounders the Spurs traded away worked out, (2) how the Spurs' 1st round pick in 2030 worked out, and (3) how the Mavs' 1st round pick in 2030 worked out.

By then, hopefully the Spurs will have a couple (or more) of titles and this will be seen as the highly abstract debate that it always was.

[SpursFan86]

It’s not that the Mavs will be tanking in 2030 - there’s just a lot of uncertainty which means there’s a lot of upside. There’s the aforementioned scenario where the Spurs are one of the top teams in the league while the Mavs are a low seed playoff team: in that case we’d get to move up from 25-30 to 15-20. That’s a big win. There’s the dream scenario, albeit unlikely, where the Mavs have a rough year with injuries and underperform expectations and wind up being a lottery team. There’s also a world where this pick swap entices another team with its unprotected upside potential and we trade it off in 2026 or 2027 to help land a proven player.

It’s really not hard at all to envision a world where this pick swap is far more valuable than 3 SRPs - especially given we already have a metric fuck ton of SRPs over the next several years :lol I love the idea of consolidating to give ourselves a higher upside outcome down the road. Lastly, it’s also not that farfetched to imagine a scenario where we end up recouping an SRP or two mid-season if we end up playing Bullock and he performs moderately well…and in that case it becomes an even clearer no-brainer.

[Extra Stout]

Russ perhaps is suggesting that Cuban will have the Mavs go over the second tax apron this year and another year in the next four to ensure that 2030 pick is at the end of the first round. That would be cutting off his nose to spite his face, but following the line of thinking he just hates the Spurs that much.

[spurraider21]

Okay, you're right, it's better to have a pick swap than not to have one.

But it would be interesting to see (seven years from now) how (1) the 2nd rounders the Spurs traded away worked out, (2) how the Spurs' 1st round pick in 2030 worked out, and (3) how the Mavs' 1st round pick in 2030 worked out.

By then, hopefully the Spurs will have a couple (or more) of titles and this will be seen as the highly abstract debate that it always was.
in the last decade, tre jones is the only spurs SRP who has cracked the rotation. there isnt a huge track record for SRPs being successful.

there will always be outliers of course

[Extra Stout]

LJ Ellis has alluded to this possibility:

The Spurs could offer as part of a trade for a star player:
2026: The better of the ATL and SAS picks
2028: The better of the BOS and SAS picks
2030: The better of the DAL and SAS picks

This would be more valuable than trading just for the Spurs’ own picks, which would probably always be near or at the end of the first round.

[Russ]

in the last decade, tre jones is the only spurs SRP who has cracked the rotation. there isnt a huge track record for SRPs being successful.

there will always be outliers of course

Of course, the elephant (literally) in the room is Jokic.

[RC_Drunkford]

Cuban would (will) make it his business to see that the hated Spurs (and their dirty Riverwalk) don't benefit from this pick swap!

well when the Spurs are the best team in the west, how is he going to do this?

[Russ]

well when the Spurs are the best team in the west, how is he going to do this?

Ya got me there. But he'll try to make the "pick gap" as little as possible and I wouldn't bet against him.

[spurraider21]

Of course, the elephant (literally) in the room is Jokic.


there will always be outliers of course

[spurraider21]

Ya got me there. But he'll try to make the "pick gap" as little as possible and I wouldn't bet against him.
the way to make the pick gap as little as possible is for the mavs to be a very good team. thats not some nefarious mark cuban plot... to make the mavs good!

[Joseph Kony]

:lol thinking mark cuban is suddenly going to make the Mavs good just to spite the Spurs in 7 years. this is the guy that made absolutely no attempt at defending their lone title. what an awful take

[exstatic]

Russ perhaps is suggesting that Cuban will have the Mavs go over the second tax apron this year and another year in the next four to ensure that 2030 pick is at the end of the first round. That would be cutting off his nose to spite his face, but following the line of thinking he just hates the Spurs that much.

The pick that would be frozen would be 2031, since they wouldn’t be 2nd apron offenders until they have a chance to shed salary in season. There’s a lot of other scary shit that even Cuban wants no part of, like you can’t take $1 more salary in trade than you send out. No more buffer amount over/under. You also cannot send picks out to shed salary. Your cap/tax figure can only fall by letting players roll off.

[Seventyniner]

The pick that would be frozen would be 2031, since they wouldn’t be 2nd apron offenders until they have a chance to shed salary in season. There’s a lot of other scary shit that even Cuban wants no part of, like you can’t take $1 more salary in trade than you send out. No more buffer amount over/under. You also cannot send picks out to shed salary. Your cap/tax figure can only fall by letting players roll off.

I hope they throw a CBA amendment in that closes this loophole. If the idea is to give disincentives for teams going over the second apron too often, they shouldn't be allowed to trade away useless swaps like that. An easy fix is to just have the offending team's first round pick moved to the end of the first after all swaps have been used.

[exstatic]

I hope they throw a CBA amendment in that closes this loophole. If the idea is to give disincentives for teams going over the second apron too often, they shouldn't be allowed to trade away useless swaps like that. An easy fix is to just have the offending team's first round pick moved to the end of the first after all swaps have been used.

Technically, a swap is a possible pick trade, and they’re not allowed to trade the pick even before it’s sent to the end of the round a year later.

[scott]

LJ Ellis has alluded to this possibility:

The Spurs could offer as part of a trade for a star player:
2026: The better of the ATL and SAS picks
2028: The better of the BOS and SAS picks
2030: The better of the DAL and SAS picks

This would be more valuable than trading just for the Spurs’ own picks, which would probably always be near or at the end of the first round.

Bingo. This is where the real value comes in for us.

[Ariel]

The pick that would be frozen would be 2031, since they wouldn’t be 2nd apron offenders until they have a chance to shed salary in season. There’s a lot of other scary shit that even Cuban wants no part of, like you can’t take $1 more salary in trade than you send out. No more buffer amount over/under. You also cannot send picks out to shed salary. Your cap/tax figure can only fall by letting players roll off.I hope they throw a CBA amendment in that closes this loophole. If the idea is to give disincentives for teams going over the second apron too often, they shouldn't be allowed to trade away useless swaps like that. An easy fix is to just have the offending team's first round pick moved to the end of the first after all swaps have been used.
The penalty should fall on the first pick currently unavailable for trade, once it kicks in (say, if it were right now it should fall on their '31 pick). That way the value loss falls on the offending team.
But it may be too light, as they'd project themselves (rightly or not) at the end of the first anyway, so I'd go further if they're really serious:
1) take their first round pick outright, leaving them only their second round pick. You strip them of an asset.
or (if that's too harsh)
2) drop that pick to the bottom of the first AND make it ineligible for trade so that they can't use it as an asset.
That should do the trick.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

I think the most hilarious outcome for the swap is the spurs trading it back to Dallas in a package for Luka after he begs out.

[baseline bum]

Of course, the elephant (literally) in the room is Jokic.

If Wemby develops into a yearly MVP candidate the way we are all expecting him to Jokic will probably be 32 or 33 by the time the Spurs are contenders. OKC is going to be a bastard to deal with though.

[Ariel]

If Wemby develops into a yearly MVP candidate the way we are all expecting him to Jokic will probably be 32 or 33 by the time the Spurs are contenders. OKC is going to be a bastard to deal with though.
Agreed, especially because they have so much ammo that even if they screw up they can keep reloading again and again. But if we play our cards right, we're not far behind, just a little behind their schedule.

[scott]

The penalty should fall on the first pick currently unavailable for trade, once it kicks in (say, if it were right now it should fall on their '31 pick). That way the value loss falls on the offending team.
But it may be too light, as they'd project themselves (rightly or not) at the end of the first anyway, so I'd go further if they're really serious:
1) take their first round pick outright, leaving them only their second round pick. You strip them of an asset.
or (if that's too harsh)
2) drop that pick to the bottom of the first AND make it ineligible for trade so that they can't use it as an asset.
That should do the trick.

I wonder if the penalty would still apply in the year of a swap, but be applied after the Swap. So in this example, say the Spurs have pick #24 and the Mavs pick #12 in 2030... the Spurs would move up to #12 with the Swap, and then the Mavs would drop from #24 to #30 as their second apron penalty.

Otherwise, a team would ignore the second apron penalty in a scenario where they have traded all their FRPs and Swaps.

Edit: I now see seventyniner already said the same thing. Though this does not address the penalty of not allowing you to trade your picks.

[exstatic]

Of course, the elephant (literally) in the room is Jokic.

Against Wemby is where his lack of athleticism will be exposed. He can get that soft little floater off against everyone else.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If Wemby develops into a yearly MVP candidate the way we are all expecting him to Jokic will probably be 32 or 33 by the time the Spurs are contenders. OKC is going to be a bastard to deal with though.

Funny, I was just having the OKC conversation with someone else. It’s a little scary what they’ve got in terms of future potential.

They’ll return to being our biggest obstacle for getting to the Finals.

[baseline bum]

Funny, I was just having the OKC conversation with someone else. It’s a little scary what they’ve got in terms of future potential.

They’ll return to being our biggest obstacle for getting to the Finals.

They're scary enough without Holmgren but he has looked like a monster in the summer leagues. Definitely expecting him to be extremely tough competition for Wemby in the ROY race, especially if OKC can win 50 games.

[Bruno]

1679947450940035072

Stevens will likely be waived very soon.

1679932217764757505
It was these talks that slow down the completion of this trade.

[spurraider21]

1679947450940035072

Stevens will likely be waived very soon.
:tu good info

i know that often times guarantees have to be adjusted to make trades work (happened with CP3 as well), so it seemed very odd that Stevens would be included in the deal with 0 guaranteed. 400k is still virtually nothing. easy decision to waive imo

[timvp]

1679947450940035072

Stevens will likely be waived very soon.

Yeah, that sounds like the Spurs basically agreed to waive him. No other reason to move it up to that specific date.

Then again, $1.9 million itself is a rounding error these days so the Spurs may keep him if they have any interest in him at all.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, that sounds like the Spurs basically agreed to waive him. No other reason to move it up to that specific date.

Then again, $1.9 million itself is a rounding error these days so the Spurs may keep him if they have any interest in him at all.
unless we get some consolidation trades, we already are going to need to waive at least 2 guys (more if cissoko needs a big boy contract. also noteworthy that barlow hasnt signed a 2-way either).

other than birch, dont think theres anybody they'd waive before stevens. guys like cedi/bullock are at least decent expiring deals.

[Seventyniner]

Yeah, that sounds like the Spurs basically agreed to waive him. No other reason to move it up to that specific date.

Then again, $1.9 million itself is a rounding error these days so the Spurs may keep him if they have any interest in him at all.

It's more about roster spots than salary at this point.

[BatManu20]

We’ll always have the memories. :cry

1708225701176889773

[Bruno]

Buyout likely means he has agreed to take less than his full salary. We will see how much it is. Good luck to him with his future team.

[Degoat]

Seems like the spurs must have fallen for Cedi? Lol

[Mr. Body]

Never Mind the Bullock

Looks like the chances of facilitating bigger trades disappeared. I'd expect the long weird retential of Birch to be extinguished and we have our team.

[Degoat]

Buyout likely means he has agreed to take less than his full salary. We will see how much it is. Good luck to him with his future team.

Bucks seems like a great option for him

[Mr. Body]

Seems like the spurs must have fallen for Cedi? Lol

Why would you pick Bullock over Osman?

[spurraider21]

As i said in the other thread, i think cedi does more spurs-y things on offense as a good connector type who can put the ball on the floor.

bullock is a 3&d player where the d really comes and goes. If the spurs wanted to keep one who fits this team better it was Osman. If they wanted to maximize the possibility of getting an asset at the deadline, bullock was arguably the better play. If he had a strong half of the season a contender could easily project his fit more so than osman

[Bruno]

BTW, Spurs have do trades for 4 players this summer: Cedi Osman, Lamar Stevens, Reggie Bullock and Cam Payne. 3 of 4 have been cut before the start of training camp.

These trades were obviously made for the draft compensation but it's still kinda weird.

[Mr. Body]

BTW, Spurs have do trades for 4 players this summer: Cedi Osman, Lamar Stevens, Reggie Bullock and Cam Payne. 3 of 4 have been cut before the start of training camp.

These trades were obviously made for the draft compensation but it's still kinda weird.

I feel like they were hanging on to lubricate a Lillard or possible Harden trade. Once Portland moved Dame to Milwaukee they moved on. The trades were pretty clearly only for draft capital and to see if they could get anything more. Payne and Bullock are attractive to fill out contending rosters but no one has SRPs to cough up for them anymore.

[spurraider21]

Surprised these cuts are all coming before birch

[CGD]

BTW, Spurs have do trades for 4 players this summer: Cedi Osman, Lamar Stevens, Reggie Bullock and Cam Payne. 3 of 4 have been cut before the start of training camp.

These trades were obviously made for the draft compensation but it's still kinda weird.

Yeah by my count the team used approx ~24M of capspace to get:

- Cedi
- DAL FRP swap
- CLE SRP
- NOLA SRP via PHX
- 6M in cash for Cam
- whatever cash Bullock gives back in buyout

It’s not terrible in a world where you have to reach the floor, but leaves you wanting more at the same time.

[Bruno]

Yeah by my count the team used approx ~24M of capspace to get:

- Cedi
- DAL FRP swap
- CLE SRP
- NOLA SRP via PHX
- 6M in cash for Cam
- whatever cash Bullock gives back in buyout

It’s not terrible in a world where you have to reach the floor, but leaves you wanting more at the same time.

Spurs traded away 3 second round picks in the Bullock trade.

If you remove the financial part, Spurs three trades in July can sum up as a second round pick for Cedi Osman and a 2030 unprotected first round pick swap with Mavs.

[TD 21]

Bucks seems like a great option for him

Theoretically, but in reality their open spot is more than likely going to Payne/backup PG TBD.

To fill their need for perimeter defense, they need Beauchamp or Jackson Jr. to become a credible enough shooter to become playable.

Celtics have both the roster space and the rotational opening.

[exstatic]

Spurs traded away 3 second round picks in the Bullock trade.

If you remove the financial part, Spurs three trades in July can sum up as a second round pick for Cedi Osman and a 2030 unprotected first round pick swap with Mavs.

That’s actually a really good trade, even without the $$$, which we did end up with I’m also guessing we get something for Cedi at the deadline. Also, who else gets a player to agree to a buyout in September?

[BacktoBasics]

Never Mind the Bullock

Looks like the chances of facilitating bigger trades disappeared. I'd expect the long weird retential of Birch to be extinguished and we have our team.

I’m surprised they couldn’t pull at least a future 2nd for Bullock.

[jjspur]

So...one more cut and its probably Birch right ? Personally I would have cut Birch before Bullock even if he gave $$$ back.

[Mr. Body]

That’s actually a really good trade, even without the $$$, which we did end up with I’m also guessing we get something for Cedi at the deadline. Also, who else gets a player to agree to a buyout in September?

It was mentioned somewhere that if he was cut before training camp, due to the new CBA, he can sign with any team without restriction. I suppose this is a big cause for the timing.

The Dallas pick swap may be super tasty. Someone posted that list of best draft assets in the league and it ranks very high.

The Spurs had to make salary, they got what they could. As many have said, the market is completely different than it was a year ago. Nothing's there anymore pick-wise. They also picked up Payne, Bullock, etc., hoping to be available for Harden/Lillard trades but those just didn't materialize.

So... I just don't think there was much to squeeze out of the league right now. Detroit only got two SRPs for taking on a $20 million salary (Joe Harris). I'm not being a homer or anything - I legit don't think there was much there, they kept their powder dry, and nothing new materialized. Let's get rid of Birch and convert Dom.

[CGD]

Spurs traded away 3 second round picks in the Bullock trade.

If you remove the financial part, Spurs three trades in July can sum up as a second round pick for Cedi Osman and a 2030 unprotected first round pick swap with Mavs.

True, but the SRP aren’t created equal. I believe the SRPs the spurs sent to Miami and Suns for example where “fake” picks, e.g., 55 protected. Meanwhile the CLE SRP is distant and from one of the dumpiest franchises in the league, and the Suns SRP is past the the current Suns window. Those are real gets.

[sfernald]

So we drop kick birch off the team and call it an offseason then?

[Ditty]

I believe he was in SA working out with the team recently. Maybe he was so awful in pickup games :lol.

[Degoat]

Why would you pick Bullock over Osman?

Bullock has a reputation of being a good dude in the locker room plus 3 point shooting. But if it was up to me both Bullock and Cedi would be cut lol

[poopbox]

And people think this team isn't about to tank again :lol

[Mr. Body]

And people think this team isn't about to tank again :lol

Shit we cut Reggie Bullock. It's all over

[toki9]

So...one more cut and it’s probably Birch right ? Personally I would have cut Birch before Bullock even if he gave $$$ back.

The team may be waiting on insurance resolution for Birch. Also, isn’t Thibs a Bullock fan? I don’t think he was happy that the Knicks let him go.

[FutureMan]

And people think this team isn't about to tank again :lol

Idk about “tanking” but we now have 20+ million in dead money. I wonder what the percentage is for teams making the playoffs with that much dead money. Gotta be less than 20%.

[Bruno]

True, but the SRP aren’t created equal. I believe the SRPs the spurs sent to Miami and Suns for example where “fake” picks, e.g., 55 protected. Meanwhile the CLE SRP is distant and from one of the dumpiest franchises in the league, and the Suns SRP is past the the current Suns window. Those are real gets.

There were some "fake" picks traded both way with Spurs this summer but these 3 picks are real picks.

They are:
- best of 2024 Bulls and 2024 Hornets SRP.
- 2025 Raptors SRP
- 2028 Heat SRP

Spurs gave these 3 "good" second round picks and absorbed Bullock $10.5M contract to get the 2030 Mavs swap. The 2030 Mavs swap is at a whole different level than a second round pick, even an early one. It's logical that Spurs had to give these picks and it's still a great gamble trade made by Wright.

[Mal]

2030 swap with Dallas could be massive. Have to make sure Dallas dissapoint around end of Luka's current deal.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Shit we cut Reggie Bullock. It's all over

Technically, he was bought out.

[Monostradamus]

IMO:

For sure - I think a lot will feel like you. I wont say its something to rave about per se but I look it a few ways:

1)We have SO many 2nds. Think of it this way: Would you trade Josh Richardson for Bullock + unprotected 1st swap? Absolutely right? That’s what Sa just did

2) It’s like buying lotto tickets. If you have plenty of money and you buy a few tickets with pocket money for fun? Then its fun and all upside and no downside. If you are buying lotto tickets trying to pay your rent you are in big trouble….

3) Bullock is not just some throw away player like Cedi. He’s shoots well can play a little Defense and should be able to recoup some of what Sa gave up too which makes it even better IF SA does trade him


Bullock, at least shooting wise, has been much better than Cedi last 3 years.


KD? Bullock is not great by any stretch but he’s fine for his role and expiring etc..


It’s NOT useless salary. We’ll probably be able to flip Bullock at the deadline to get at least two of thos SRPs back.
:lmao

[tonight...you]

:lmao
Lol.

https://media.tenor.com/BziKdyHBGN4AAAAM/high-five-self-high-five.gif

[DPG21920]

:lmao

What’s funny? The logic was sound and I said “IF” in there…the deal was for the swap. The possibility of moving Reggie for some 2nds back was a cursory thing

[scott]

Bullock was in such high demand that after his buy out he agreed to a deal with the ::checks notes:: Houston Rockets.

:lol

[Mr. Body]

Bullock was in such high demand that after his buy out he agreed to a deal with the ::checks notes:: Houston Rockets.

:lol

I think most contending rosters are full, but yah, he's an aging vet who declined last year. For the Rockets he could be a good pick-up. They have a lot of puppies who have no idea what they're doing and he could help.

[rankingtear]

We could have given him 30 min per game and still no one would trade a second round pick for him. He is top 10 in 3pt shot quality last year which means nobody guards him. Does not space the floor and defense has fell off and not getting younger.

[SayTown]

We could have given him 30 min per game and still no one would trade a second round pick for him. He is top 10 in 3pt shot quality last year which means nobody guards him. Does not space the floor and defense has fell off and not getting younger.

Not to mention the distracting hair, we already have Jeremy for that we don't need two hair distractors.

[Bruno]

By looking at various sources about the financial behind the buyout:
https://notradeclause.com/san-antonio-spurs/
https://www.capsheets.com/san-antonio-spurs-cap-sheet/

First, Bullock had a 5% trade bonus in his contract. His contract went from $10,489,600 to $11,014,080.

Second, the buyout negotiated is $7,817,632. It is exactly his salary minus his minimum salary ($3,196,448). If he signs a min salary with Houston, it would be a neutral financial operation for him.

[Seventyniner]

By looking at various sources about the financial behind the buyout:
https://notradeclause.com/san-antonio-spurs/
https://www.capsheets.com/san-antonio-spurs-cap-sheet/

First, Bullock had a 5% trade bonus in his contract. His contract went from $10,489,600 to $11,014,080.

Second, the buyout negotiated is $7,817,632. It is exactly his salary minus his minimum salary ($3,196,448). If he signs a min salary with Houston, it would be a neutral financial operation for him.

I take it a buyout in the amount to make a minimum contract net neutral is a common practice? It makes sense.

Thanks for the links btw. Spotrac has been slow to update Vassell's contract (they have it as a standard increasing contract, 8% per year).

It looks like the Spurs can open up about $42.5M of cap room next just by renouncing Birch, Osman, and McDermott. They can waive Graham and add the non-guaranteed amount for next year (around $10M iirc) to that $42.5M too. If I'm doing the calculations right, that is.

[Bruno]

It looks like the Spurs can open up about $42.5M of cap room next just by renouncing Birch, Osman, and McDermott. They can waive Graham and add the non-guaranteed amount for next year (around $10M iirc) to that $42.5M too. If I'm doing the calculations right, that is.

It's very hard to have a good idea on how much cap space will have next summer mostly for two reasons:
1) NBA hasn't released a 2024 salary cap estimation. "journalists" interested in that aspect of the NBA are using various figures going from $140M to $149.6M.
2) 2024 first round picks will count against the cap. Spurs might 1, 2 or 3 first round with various ranks. The space taken by 2024 first round picks could go from something like $5M to $20M.

Because of these, even a precise salary cap evaluation might end up being $10M or more wrong.

With that in mind let's make one with a $145M cap and spurs having 2 first round picks with a $12M cap hold:
- Spurs have 5 players next year with a fully guaranteed contract (Vassell, KJ, Wemby, Tre and Cissoko) for a total of $72.1M.
- 3 players (Sochan, Branham and Wesley) have a team option that must be picked before the end of this training camp. Let's say Spurs pick all three, it will add $11.4M to the cap.
- Spurs waive Graham and have to pay him $2.9M.
- They have 2 first round picks for $12M.
- Spurs renounce to all their free agents and waive Bassey and Champagnie.
- 2 incomplete roster charges must be added for 2*$1.2M: $2.4M

=> Spurs will have $44.2M in cap space in that scenario. Spurs could have a little less cap space if they decide to keep Champagnie and/or Bassey. If they keep their rights to Zollins, cap space will be around $30M.

[scott]

It's very hard to have a good idea on how much cap space will have next summer mostly for two reasons:
1) NBA hasn't released a 2024 salary cap estimation. "journalists" interested in that aspect of the NBA are using various figures going from $140M to $149.6M.
2) 2024 first round picks will count against the cap. Spurs might 1, 2 or 3 first round with various ranks. The space taken by 2024 first round picks could go from something like $5M to $20M.

Because of these, even a precise salary cap evaluation might end up being $10M or more wrong.

With that in mind let's make one with a $145M cap and spurs having 2 first round picks with a $12M cap hold:
- Spurs have 5 players next year with a fully guaranteed contract (Vassell, KJ, Wemby, Tre and Cissoko) for a total of $72.1M.
- 3 players (Sochan, Branham and Wesley) have a team option that must be picked before the end of this training camp. Let's say Spurs pick all three, it will add $11.4M to the cap.
- Spurs waive Graham and have to pay him $2.9M.
- They have 2 first round picks for $12M.
- Spurs renounce to all their free agents and waive Bassey and Champagnie.
- 2 incomplete roster charges must be added for 2*$1.2M: $2.4M

=> Spurs will have $44.2M in cap space in that scenario. Spurs could have a little less cap space if they decide to keep Champagnie and/or Bassey. If they keep their rights to Zollins, cap space will be around $30M.

Dougie McBuckets extension incoming

[buttsR4rebounding]

So Khem Birch is in camp and according to Pop is going at full speed. He may not be the automatic cut everyone was assuming.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

So Khem Birch is in camp and according to Pop is going at full speed. He may not be the automatic cut everyone was assuming.

Yeah, I'm curious to see what the Spurs do with Birch. Osman was a head scratcher for me, too, but he seems to be fitting into the grand plan. Maybe Birch has a spot.


As for Bullock, I kind of liked him on the roster and thought maybe he'd be trade bait down the road. Spurs must have decided they wouldn't get anything of value for him and that he wasn't a good fit for the rebuild. I always think young teams need a veteran presence at the end of the bench, and since Bullock was considered a good locker room guy, and a player they could bring in for the corner threes when the team was struggling, I thought he'd stick around. Oh well.

[spurraider21]

Bullock signed for the league minimum which kinda tells you what his trade value was.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, I'm curious to see what the Spurs do with Birch. Osman was a head scratcher for me, too, but he seems to be fitting into the grand plan. Maybe Birch has a spot.


As for Bullock, I kind of liked him on the roster and thought maybe he'd be trade bait down the road. Spurs must have decided they wouldn't get anything of value for him and that he wasn't a good fit for the rebuild. I always think young teams need a veteran presence at the end of the bench, and since Bullock was considered a good locker room guy, and a player they could bring in for the corner threes when the team was struggling, I thought he'd stick around. Oh well.

Bullock looked about done last year. Doubt he gets much playing time in Houston unless something's gone very wrong. Osman sticking isn't a surprise. Birch still here is a complete and utter surprise.

[The Truth #6]

Just to clarify, they have to cut either Birch or Cedy, right?

[Mr. Body]

Just to clarify, they have to cut either Birch or Cedy, right?

They have to cut one of anybody.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Bullock looked about done last year. Doubt he gets much playing time in Houston unless something's gone very wrong. Osman sticking isn't a surprise. Birch still here is a complete and utter surprise.

Thanks. My body of reference is probably outdated on Bullock as I hardly paid attention to him last year. I guess the Spurs were sparing him the DeMarre Carroll fate and bought him out so he wouldn't rot on the bench for the next 5 months.

[CGD]

It’s gotta be Berch. Only reason he’s still on the team has to be bc they want the camp body. Doubt there are anymore trades before the start of the season.

[mudyez]

Let's just say, we might not have gotten another 2nd rounder for him, but the nutmeg was worth it.

[Kurik]

Nice.

[RC_Drunkford]

Brian Wright looking more and more like a genius

[Ice009]

So the swap has no protections on it at all? That pick swap may have now just gotten really, really good. Also makes it a more enticing asset.

[Fizziksman]

Reggie Bullock about to get us a top 4 pick lol just in time to retool for our Go for Ocho tour.

[spursparker9]

:lol. 2030 AD will be 36 years old. Kyrie will be 37 years old

Thank you Mavs.

We have a top 1 protected pick from T-wolves as well in 2031 right? (from the Rob DHam trade) Future look good.

[mystargtr34]

:lol. 2030 AD will be 36 years old. Kyrie will be 37 years old

Thank you Mavs.

We have a top 1 protected pick from T-wolves as well in 2031 right? (from the Rob DHam trade) Future look good.

I believe that 2031 Minny swap is the same as how B Wright fucked Nico Harrison in this trade.

Unprotected.

[spursparker9]

I believe that 2031 Minny swap is the same as how B Wright fucked Nico Harrison in this trade.

Unprotected.

:lol B "get it right" Wright fucked Minny twice tbh.

The Timberwolves acquired the rights to 8th overall pick Rob Dillingham from the San Antonio Spurs in exchange for a future first-round pick and a first-round pick swap.

Spurs get:

2031 first-round pick (unprotected)
2030 pick swap (top 1 protected)

[Mal]

Shit, we are all getting excited about some kids born in 2012.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Shit, we are all getting excited about some kids born in 2012.

No no , we're excited about a trade asset being more valuable. As things stand the Spurs will get the best of 2030 SAS, Dallas or Minnesota (top 1 protected, only for Minnesota). This has to be one of the best future assets in the NBA, as there are 3 teams in this.

[Sugus]

Wow, long-term moves having long-term benefits? Who would've thought?

Almost like the Spurs have been aiming to obtain numerous draft swaps from notoriously bad teams?!

[jeebus]

Shit, we are all getting excited about some kids born in 2012.

what a tiktok ass take

[Mr. Body]

Amazing, they got that swap just for facilitating a trade. Dallas was actually making good moves at that point overall getting size around Luca.

[Atl Spur]

Probably because I'm the only one who sees 2030 like some far future date. Shit is like 7 years from now :lol

Still not getting the move dummy? Haven’t I taught you anything?

[NASpurs]

Still not getting the move dummy? Haven’t I taught you anything?

Don't quote me fatty. I didn't give you permission.

[Mugen]

I can't believe the only person dumber than Atl Spur ended up being the GM for the Mavs :lol