[Shams] Spurs are waiving Lamar Stevens

[Dejounte]

I feel like if we were waiving Osman or Bullock, they would have been included in this report too?

[Ariel]

Most obvious decision ever. We'll see, but I'd expect Birch to be next (not necessarily now). Bullock especially deserves a chance IMO, I could see him and Cam Payne being interesting to a contender later on if they play well.

[BacktoBasics]

I believe we have time to make a decision on the others. Time was up on Stevens

[sfernald]

No way man, he was my favorite spur!

[Trill Clinton]

https://media.tenor.com/BqKsC7_DjjwAAAAC/snoop-dogg-who.gif

[spurraider21]

I feel like if we were waiving Osman or Bullock, they would have been included in this report too?
nah, Stevens specifically had to be cut by today. we were able to waive him for only 400k. the rest of his salary guaranteed today, so he was time sensitive. they have more time to figure out what to do with Osman/Bullock or anybody else really. think they're trying to find a consolidation trade or two before resorting to just waiving guys. birch will probably be waived tho. doubt any team would want him back as part of a deal. we have so many expiring deals to send out in potential deals that teams would simply ask for another piece and not take on birch

[RC_Drunkford]

good

[Mr. Body]

Sucks for him, but had to be done. Hope he lands somewhere else.

[exstatic]

I feel like if we were waiving Osman or Bullock, they would have been included in this report too?

Stevens was given a small guarantee because he was traded, but his full salary kicked in tomorrow if they didn't waive him today. I don't believe anyone else has any kind of partial guarantee. They're all fully guaranteed deals that we will eat if we waive them, which is OK because they helped get us to the salary floor.

[Mr. Body]

The team worked with him to move up the cut-by date from January, I believe, in order to get this done. I assume it was moved to somewhat as soon as possible to give him a chance to sign on with someone else.

[jjspur]

Should have cut/waived Birch, or at least try for a disabled player exception. Stevens will land somewhere, he wasn't that bad of a player or as constantly injured like Birch or Romeo Langford.

[Kurik]

I feel like if we were waiving Osman or Bullock, they would have been included in this report too?

I don’t believe there’s a reason for the Spurs to waive anyone else from now until late September, once another big trade happens other teams may need depth, Spurs may still be trying to decide who to keep, or if they do decide to waive someone it would be because they’ve exhausted every other option and want to do what’s right by the player.

[spurraider21]

Should have cut/waived Birch, or at least try for a disabled player exception. Stevens will land somewhere, he wasn't that bad of a player or as constantly injured like Birch or Romeo Langford.
stevens and langford are both camp fodder at this point until proven otherwise

if anything id expect langford to latch on somewhere first as stevens is already 26

[DPG21920]

I feel like if we were waiving Osman or Bullock, they would have been included in this report too?

Nah- there was a timing thing with Stevens not present with Cedi/Bullock. Stevens had to be today due to his contract guarantee

[CGD]

stevens and langford are both camp fodder at this point until proven otherwise

if anything id expect langford to latch on somewhere first as stevens is already 26

Langford gone

[Chinook]

I don't think Langford is on the roster. This is what I mean about folks just assuming Wesley will make the team. He is likely to, but he won't be saved by easy cuts. Barring a trade, he'll have to beat out multiple vets.

[spurraider21]

Langford gone
i know

i think both guys are "camp fodder" caliber of players. im not losing any sleep or waiving stevens or renouncing langford

[MultiTroll]

Nice of the Spurs to let Steven showcase himself.

Not sure his Kobme chucking for the game helped. Also not sure he teamates trying to earn a spot somewhere were digging it but.....
From what little i saw some possessions no one else showed any inclination to shoot so he went ahead and fired.

[exstatic]

Nice of the Spurs to let Steven showcase himself.

Not sure his Kobme chucking for the game helped. Also not sure he teamates trying to earn a spot somewhere were digging it but.....
From what little i saw some possessions no one else showed any inclination to shoot so he went ahead and fired.

Different dude. Stevens is an NBA player who was on Cleveland's roster last year that we received along with Cedi Osman in that salary dump trade earlier this month. He's 26, and would not play SL ball. Stevenson was on the SL roster chucking every shot in sight.

[Mr. Body]

I don't think Langford is on the roster. This is what I mean about folks just assuming Wesley will make the team. He is likely to, but he won't be saved by easy cuts. Barring a trade, he'll have to beat out multiple vets.

Like, dude, no.

[spurraider21]

Like, dude, no.
so who gets cut to trim the roster to 15 (putting aside cissoko and barlow)

the spurs would have to cut veterans to preserve wesley's spot on the roster. so yes, by default, he's going to have to beat them out.

[MultiTroll]

Different dude. Stevens is an NBA player who was on Cleveland's roster last year that we received along with Cedi Osman in that salary dump trade earlier this month. He's 26, and would not play SL ball. Stevenson was on the SL roster chucking every shot in sight.
Any speculation on why coach and players were tolerating?

[Mr. Body]

so who gets cut to trim the roster to 15 (putting aside cissoko and barlow)

the spurs would have to cut veterans to preserve wesley's spot on the roster. so yes, by default, he's going to have to beat them out.

You really think the Spurs are going to keep Cam Payne or Reggie Bullock for a year, guys who have no future on the team and are at best on the decline or are just who they are, over a kid who had an injury-marred single season and has a huge vista of development in front of him?

I mean, don't take this personally, but are you brain damaged? How does this make even a tiny lick of sense to you?

[Mr. Body]

Any speculation on why coach and players were tolerating?

Because all shooting guards on the SL team were given a huge green light. You didn't notice Champagnie or Branham shooting all the time, too?

[duncan2150]

so who gets cut to trim the roster to 15 (putting aside cissoko and barlow)

the spurs would have to cut veterans to preserve wesley's spot on the roster. so yes, by default, he's going to have to beat them out.

Birch and two off graham, osman, bullock imo and spurs can do a trade also

if the spurs choose graham over wesley, that's the one he can fight with, that'll be the weirdest thing off this offseason by far.

[spurraider21]

You really think the Spurs are going to keep Cam Payne or Reggie Bullock for a year, guys who have no future on the team and are at best on the decline or are just who they are, over a kid who had an injury-marred single season and has a huge vista of development in front of him?

I mean, don't take this personally, but are you brain damaged? How does this make even a tiny lick of sense to you?
so wesley will have to beat out vets like Cam Payne and Reggie Bullock for his roster spot

:tu

are age, draft capital, and long term cost control all factors in his favor? absolutely

[duncan2150]

so wesley will have to beat out vets like Cam Payne and Reggie Bullock for his roster spot

:tu

are age, draft capital, and long term cost control all factors in his favor? absolutely

why bullock ? he needs to beat payne or graham imo, pretty sure it's him or graham for the 3rd spot at pg

[spurraider21]

why bullock ? he needs to beat payne or graham imo, pretty sure it's him or graham for the 3rd spot at pg
because for wesley to make the roster, he probably needs at least two of bullock/osman/payne to get waived

graham does not appear to be at risk of being waived

its unclear exactly how many guys need to be waived/traded until we know what's happening with Cissoko and Barlow, though

[duncan2150]

because for wesley to make the roster, he probably needs at least one of bullock/osman to get waived

graham does not appear to be at risk of being waived

So we disagree here, we'll see but imo payne will be our back up pg and graham will be traded or waived.

[Chinook]

There are 20 players on the roster counting Barlow and Cissoko but not counting Stevens. Wesley and every other Spur has to beat out at least four guys (Rice is a two-way) to make the roster. People need to stop trying to get cute about this. Barring a trade (that isn't followed up by more deals that bring in other players) the Spurs are going to have to make hard choices. Pretending like they don't won't fix anything

[duncan2150]

There are 20 players on the roster counting Barlow and Cissoko but not counting Stevens. Wesley and every other Spur has to beat out at least four guys (Rice is a two-way) to make the roster. People need to stop trying to get cute about this. Barring a trade (that isn't followed up by more deals that bring in other players) the Spurs are going to have to make hard choices. Pretending like they don't won't fix anything

Agreed

a lot about wesley will also depends on barlow accepting another two way, i just don't see the spurs keeping both graham and payne while cutting wesley.

[spurraider21]

There are 20 players on the roster counting Barlow and Cissoko but not counting Stevens. Wesley and every other Spur has to beat out at least four guys (Rice is a two-way) to make the roster. People need to stop trying to get cute about this. Barring a trade (that isn't followed up by more deals that bring in other players) the Spurs are going to have to make hard choices. Pretending like they don't won't fix anything
i think people think waiving bullock/osman/payne are easy choices and might be where some of the disconnect is

[sfernald]

There are 20 players on the roster counting Barlow and Cissoko but not counting Stevens. Wesley and every other Spur has to beat out at least four guys (Rice is a two-way) to make the roster. People need to stop trying to get cute about this. Barring a trade (that isn't followed up by more deals that bring in other players) the Spurs are going to have to make hard choices. Pretending like they don't won't fix anything

Can someone who is very smart and knowledgeable about spurs list the 20 players in their expected position and ranking in the roster? Maybe then we can figure out what they are going to do.

[duncan2150]

i think people think waiving bullock/osman/payne are easy choices and might be where some of the disconnect is

spurs will keep bullock and payne imo so it's not easy, as for osman or graham i don't think it's easy but more obvious

again it's just some different ways of thinking about shaping up the roster

[spurraider21]

spurs will keep bullock and payne imo so it's not easy, as for osman or graham i don't think it's easy but more obvious

again it's just some different ways of thinking about shaping up the roster
if they waive osman/graham/birch that does bring us down to 14

but if cissoko and barlow need to be signed, we'd still have to waive 1 more. then who is it.

obviously, it would be ideal if barlow agrees to a 2-way (at least for now, they can convert it later), and for cissoko to stay under his euro contract for now. not sure what the likelihood is for either of those happening, let alone both

the other preferred solution to just waiving guys would be to find a way to make a consolidation trade.

[duncan2150]

if they waive osman/graham/birch that does bring us down to 14

but if cissoko and barlow need to be signed, we'd still have to waive 1 more. then who is it.

I said above that a big part of wesley future could be barlow accepting another two way

[sfernald]

if they waive osman/graham/birch that does bring us down to 14

but if cissoko and barlow need to be signed, we'd still have to waive 1 more. then who is it.

obviously, it would be ideal if barlow agrees to a 2-way (at least for now, they can convert it later), and for cissoko to stay under his euro contract for now. not sure what the likelihood is for either of those happening, let alone both

I think the odd man out is Wesley. I don’t think they want a bunch of young prospects around Wemby anyway. They want a bunch of good complimentary players. The time to try to develop super raw prospects like Wesley is probably over. I’d rather have Osman or Graham, decent three point shooters around Wemby anyway.

[exstatic]

Miami is going to need players. They lost two already to FA, and will be on the wrong end of a many to one trade to get Dame. We get Lowry, they get Bullock, Osman, Payne to replace Lowry, and for getting an entire decent bench for one player that has no future there, they get to eat Birch’s deal. We get roster spots enough to sign Sidy, and sign Barlow to an NBA contract instead of a 2way.

[duncan2150]

I think the odd man out is Wesley. I don’t think they want a bunch of young prospects around Wemby anyway. They want a bunch of good complimentary players. The time to try to develop super raw prospects like Wesley is probably over. I’d rather have Osman or Graham, decent three point shooters around Wemby anyway.

Cutting a young player with a rookie contract for below averages vets like osman or graham ( with one year contracts) will be strange and different from what the spurs did last years

[sfernald]

Cutting a young player with a rookie contract for below averages vets like osman or graham ( with one year contracts) will be strange and different from what the spurs did last years

With Wemby I expect a different tact. They don’t need to wait around to see if raw prospects develop. It’s pretty clear at this point he’s not going to be the next Kawhi or something. I know he’s young and cheap, but in trade I don’t think he’s worth even a second to another team so he’s pretty much trash at this point unless the spurs spend the years necessary to develop him properly and even then at the end of the day I’m not sure he would move the needle in his prime.

[JuneJive]

Don't forget about Gorgui.

[spurraider21]

Don't forget about Gorgui.
he's not on the roster and they already renounced his rights

[Chinook]

i think people think waiving bullock/osman/payne are easy choices and might be where some of the disconnect is

But that's not enough. Adding Graham on that list makes it very hard to see why this would make sense. Why would the Spurs cut so many proven guys for one of their many (many) prospects if that prospect has performed poorly? This year matters, and they have so, so many options for the future. This isn't 2016 anymore. They will cut guys who still have hope. They may dump a future All-Star. Shit happens. This is what happens when you don't consolidate your draft picks.

[MannyIsGod]

People are acting like a vet on an expiring deal never plays basketball again after this year. I get valuing a young projects potential but older players are potential contributors past this year too.

[MultiTroll]

Because all shooting guards on the SL team were given a huge green light. You didn't notice Champagnie or Branham shooting all the time, too?Just watched the Wemby games.
Ya i saw a lot of YMCA Kobme chucking by the guards including Wesley.

[RC_Drunkford]

I don’t think the Spurs plan on keeping more than 1 of the newly aquired players. Otherwise they would‘ve never resigned Mamu. They clearly have a Plan for another trade in place

[Dejounte]

I don’t think the Spurs plan on keeping more than 1 of the newly aquired players. Otherwise they would‘ve never resigned Mamu. They clearly have a Plan for another trade in place

I’m not so sure Mamu’s spot is secure even with the newly signed contract. Didnt they sign that one power forward last year for $1 million and he was eventually cut? The undersized one. Forgot his name

[duncan2150]

But that's not enough. Adding Graham on that list makes it very hard to see why this would make sense. Why would the Spurs cut so many proven guys for one of their many (many) prospects if that prospect has performed poorly? This year matters, and they have so, so many options for the future. This isn't 2016 anymore. They will cut guys who still have hope. They may dump a future All-Star. Shit happens. This is what happens when you don't consolidate your draft picks.

that’s why i think a trade or two will happen with all the players we are talking about

[Dex]

They will probably cut Wemby so Pop can bring back Forbes, this team needs someone to space the floor

[BackHome]

Yeah, I agree I think the Spurs are looking at making one or two trades - But if it doesn't happen then may the best "MAN" win just as long as it's not another Pop midget "Forbes" we need guys who can play team ball but also have talent both on offense and defense.

I agree with Chinook the next couple of years we get our drafts and other teams draft ie. Raptors, Chicago, Atlanta, so hopefully will see our talent pool increase. But as this happens we are going to have to cut bait with certain players and your just going to have to understand that when your pet cats get waived or traded.

[sfernald]

Yeah, I agree I think the Spurs are looking at making one or two trades - But if it doesn't happen then may the best "MAN" win just as long as it's not another Pop midget "Forbes" we need guys who can play team ball but also have talent both on offense and defense.

I agree with Chinook the next couple of years we get our drafts and other teams draft ie. Raptors, Chicago, Atlanta, so hopefully will see our talent pool increase. But as this happens we are going to have to cut bait with certain players and your just going to have to understand that when your pet cats get waived or traded.

I think that’s hard when most everyone on this board seems to have an unhealthy obsession with the 13th-15th guy on the roster.

[sfernald]

Yeah, I agree I think the Spurs are looking at making one or two trades - But if it doesn't happen then may the best "MAN" win just as long as it's not another Pop midget "Forbes" we need guys who can play team ball but also have talent both on offense and defense.

I agree with Chinook the next couple of years we get our drafts and other teams draft ie. Raptors, Chicago, Atlanta, so hopefully will see our talent pool increase. But as this happens we are going to have to cut bait with certain players and your just going to have to understand that when your pet cats get waived or traded.

god they really need to make at least one more trade to make this whole offseason make sense. Anything that gets rid of a few contracts and brings in a starting caliber point guard would do it.

[Obstructed_View]

god they really need to make at least one more trade to make this whole offseason make sense. Anything that gets rid of a few contracts and brings in a starting caliber point guard would do it.
Agree. Are any likely to become available?

[scottspurs]

Agree. Are any likely to become available?

Point Guards that fit the timeline that could be available in theory:

Darius Garland
Monte Morris
Kevin Porter Jr. Lol
Markelle Fultz
Jalen Suggs
Cole Anthony
Tyus Jones lol
Tyler Herro: more of a 2 guard but whatever

[Mr. Body]

god they really need to make at least one more trade to make this whole offseason make sense. Anything that gets rid of a few contracts and brings in a starting caliber point guard would do it.

It already makes sense. They took on players to get draft captal. They took on players because they had to make a salary floor.

So there's no explanation needed beyond this.

However, they pinpointed decent veteran players who often have playoff experience and are on expiring deals.

This suggests there is something else in mind for them.

[poopbox]

If the Spurs really cut a 1st round pick from last year to keep Bullock...who is trash...and Osman...who is almost trash...Wemby needs to immediately ask for a trade tbh:rollin

Imagine cutting a 1st round pick for marginal rotational players while your team is still bad :rollin

This team played Keldon out of position for two years though so anything can happen :downspin:

[K...]

If the Spurs really cut a 1st round pick from last year to keep Bullock...who is trash...and Osman...who is almost trash...Wemby needs to immediately ask for a trade tbh:rollin

Imagine cutting a 1st round pick for marginal rotational players while your team is still bad :rollin

This team played Keldon out of position for two years though so anything can happen :downspin:

Bullock and Osman are trash with size, and thus nba players. Wesley is playing below jones, cissoko, Payne, graham. Will have to fight sisdoko and rice to get minutes in austin.

It might be for his own benefit to leave because he Won't get minutes this year, and every year after gets harder

[Mr. Body]

Bullock and Osman are trash with size, and thus nba players. Wesley is playing below jones, cissoko, Payne, graham. Will have to fight sisdoko and rice to get minutes in austin.

It might be for his own benefit to leave because he Won't get minutes this year, and every year after gets harder

Blake Wesley is now so bad he'll be fighting for minutes in Austin?

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/KeithSmithNBA/status/1681298271887605760

[jjspur]

I don't get it about Wesley. He was an iffy 25th pick, didn't do much in the regular season, and didn't impress in summer league this year. To keep him he would have to be better than Payne - he's not, Graham - he's not, Jones - definitely not. Even Sissoko and Rice looked better at times in the same summer league where Wesley looked rather mediocre for non rookie.

The spurs have some tough choices to make. Keep the not so promising 2nd year player or cut a veteran who makes more but can probably help the team more in the short term. What sucks is that both probably won't be here next year. Maybe another team can help us out with a trade.

[Mr. Body]

I don't get it about Wesley. He was an iffy 25th pick, didn't do much in the regular season, and didn't impress in summer league this year. To keep him he would have to be better than Payne - he's not, Graham - he's not, Jones - definitely not. Even Sissoko and Rice looked better at times in the same summer league where Wesley looked rather mediocre for non rookie.

The spurs have some tough choices to make. Keep the not so promising 2nd year player or cut a veteran who makes more but can probably help the team more in the short term. What sucks is that both probably won't be here next year. Maybe another team can help us out with a trade.

Why would you keep a veteran when we already have veterans, and who won't get any better and who won't be here after a season, over a twenty year old who is still developing?

Someone needs to explain this mentality because it doesn't make any sense.

[Chinook]

Why would you keep a veteran when we already have veterans, and who won't get any better and who won't be here after a season, over a twenty year old who is still developing?

Someone needs to explain this mentality because it doesn't make any sense.

People have explained it multiple times. You just freak out and act like they're stupid when they do.

Vets being (way) better now matters. The Spurs need some stability on the floor, especially at PG, now that they have a star prospect they're trying to build around. They need competent guard play, and last year they only sort of had it with Jones on the court. That standard needs to rise. Jones needs actual competition for him spot, and the team needs backups at or near his level. They can't afford the summer-league guard play when they're trying to evaluate their roster. And as has been pointed out multiple times before, vets can be on the roster beyond this year. Only Bullock is over 30. Graham is signed for another year already. There's zero reason why a guy who's playing well for the team can't stick around. Over the timeline that matters, the Spurs don't have a reason to worry about anyone in question getting too old.

The Spurs have plenty (too many) opportunities to add PG prospects, both now and in the next few years. The opportunity cost on moving Wesley is really low. There are comparable prospects sitting and the end of rosters throughout the league. One or two of them may find their way to competency (like Payne eventually did himself), but their availability for cheap whenever is a constant. The team also has the picks to draft another PG prospect next year. They'll likely end up doing so anyway over the next couple of years. When you have a lot of draft picks, you have a lot of players. Unless you suck at drafting, a lot of players you have will have shown something worth being picked in the first place. You still have to move on from some. The secondary market for prospects sometimes turns up good. The Spurs have benefitted from other teams' roster crunches. That's the nature of things, not something to dread.

Locks:
Jones
Vassell, Branham, Champangie
Johnson
Wembanayam, Sochan

Near-locks:
McDermott
Collins, Bassey

Would be a lock if signed:
Barlow

Likely to make the team if signed:
Cissoko

That's 12 players. There are three slots available for:
Graham, Payne, Wesley
Bullock
Osman, Mamukelashvili
Birch

Birch is an obvious cut barring some miracle turn-around. So we're talking about six guys for three slots (or four if Cissoko ends up staying in Europe). I know folks want to just assume all the vets are going to get cut to make room for Welsey and Mamu, but as KBD/Samanic and Butler/Freddette showed, the Spurs reward camp play. I'd put Wesley as having the best chance of the lot to make it, but with Branham possibly playing his position and some legit competition for him, he doesn't have to. Unlike any other bubble player, Blake is eligible for a two-way contract. It's arguable that him signing one would be best for both sides. He gets more money and gets to see free agency sooner, and the Spurs get a roster spot while still maintaining some long-term control over an asset. I know some people would be worried about Wesley getting claimed. But honestly as I've pointed out plenty of teams have comparable guys at the end of their rosters already, and fewer teams have the exception or cap space to put in a claim. The Spurs could make it even less palatable by picking up his option in conjunction with waiving him.

[DrSteffo]

It's not difficult to explain. Wesley was one of the worst players in the NBA last season and struggled even in summer league. He could be useful for tanking purposes if that's the plan, He should get zero minutes in the NBA if we want to win and that would hurt his development further. Compare him to Sochan and Branham and it's obvious we got two of three draft picks right, which is probably better than expected.

[Mr. Body]

People have explained it multiple times. You just freak out and act like they're stupid when they do.

Vets being (way) better now matters. The Spurs need some stability on the floor, especially at PG, now that they have a star prospect they're trying to build around. They need competent guard play, and last year they only sort of had it with Jones on the court. That standard needs to rise. Jones needs actual competition for him spot, and the team needs backups at or near his level. They can't afford the summer-league guard play when they're trying to evaluate their roster. And as has been pointed out multiple times before, vets can be on the roster beyond this year. Only Bullock is over 30. Graham is signed for another year already. There's zero reason why a guy who's playing well for the team can't stick around. Over the timeline that matters, the Spurs don't have a reason to worry about anyone in question getting too old.

The Spurs have plenty (too many) opportunities to add PG prospects, both now and in the next few years. The opportunity cost on moving Wesley is really low. There are comparable prospects sitting and the end of rosters throughout the league. One or two of them may find their way to competency (like Payne eventually did himself), but their availability for cheap whenever is a constant. The team also has the picks to draft another PG prospect next year. They'll likely end up doing so anyway over the next couple of years. When you have a lot of draft picks, you have a lot of players. Unless you suck at drafting, a lot of players you have will have shown something worth being picked in the first place. You still have to move on from some. The secondary market for prospects sometimes turns up good. The Spurs have benefitted from other teams' roster crunches. That's the nature of things, not something to dread.

Locks:
Jones
Vassell, Branham, Champangie
Johnson
Wembanayam, Sochan

Near-locks:
McDermott
Collins, Bassey

Would be a lock if signed:
Barlow

Likely to make the team if signed:
Cissoko

That's 12 players. There are three slots available for:
Graham, Payne, Wesley
Bullock
Osman, Mamukelashvili
Birch

Birch is an obvious cut barring some miracle turn-around. So we're talking about six guys for three slots (or four if Cissoko ends up staying in Europe). I know folks want to just assume all the vets are going to get cut to make room for Welsey and Mamu, but as KBD/Samanic and Butler/Freddette showed, the Spurs reward camp play. I'd put Wesley as having the best chance of the lot to make it, but with Branham possibly playing his position and some legit competition for him, he doesn't have to. Unlike any other bubble player, Blake is eligible for a two-way contract. It's arguable that him signing one would be best for both sides. He gets more money and gets to see free agency sooner, and the Spurs get a roster spot while still maintaining some long-term control over an asset. I know some people would be worried about Wesley getting claimed. But honestly as I've pointed out plenty of teams have comparable guys at the end of their rosters already, and fewer teams have the exception or cap space to put in a claim. The Spurs could make it even less palatable by picking up his option in conjunction with waiving him.

This isn't an explanation, it's just lists.

Still haven't heard a good rationale why suddenly you guys have a hard on to cut a developmental player over guys you barely knew existed a month ago.

It's legitimately cloud cuckoo land at this point. It makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

But go ahead and make your lists again.

[Mr. Body]

It's not difficult to explain. Wesley was one of the worst players in the NBA last season and struggled even in summer league. He could be useful for tanking purposes if that's the plan, He should get zero minutes in the NBA if we want to win and that would hurt his development further. Compare him to Sochan and Branham and it's obvious we got two of three draft picks right, which is probably better than expected.

If teams cut every rookie that didn't immediately turn out there would be no players in the league. :lol

C'mon guys, try harder.

[spurraider21]

This isn't an explanation, it's just lists.

Still haven't heard a good rationale why suddenly you guys have a hard on to cut a developmental player over guys you barely knew existed a month ago.

It's legitimately cloud cuckoo land at this point. It makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

But go ahead and make your lists again.
you're just being obtuse


People have explained it multiple times. You just freak out and act like they're stupid when they do.

Vets being (way) better now matters. The Spurs need some stability on the floor, especially at PG, now that they have a star prospect they're trying to build around. They need competent guard play, and last year they only sort of had it with Jones on the court. That standard needs to rise. Jones needs actual competition for him spot, and the team needs backups at or near his level. They can't afford the summer-league guard play when they're trying to evaluate their roster. And as has been pointed out multiple times before, vets can be on the roster beyond this year. Only Bullock is over 30. Graham is signed for another year already. There's zero reason why a guy who's playing well for the team can't stick around. Over the timeline that matters, the Spurs don't have a reason to worry about anyone in question getting too old.

The Spurs have plenty (too many) opportunities to add PG prospects, both now and in the next few years. The opportunity cost on moving Wesley is really low. There are comparable prospects sitting and the end of rosters throughout the league. One or two of them may find their way to competency (like Payne eventually did himself), but their availability for cheap whenever is a constant. The team also has the picks to draft another PG prospect next year. They'll likely end up doing so anyway over the next couple of years. When you have a lot of draft picks, you have a lot of players. Unless you suck at drafting, a lot of players you have will have shown something worth being picked in the first place. You still have to move on from some. The secondary market for prospects sometimes turns up good. The Spurs have benefitted from other teams' roster crunches. That's the nature of things, not something to dread.

Locks:
Jones
Vassell, Branham, Champangie
Johnson
Wembanayam, Sochan

Near-locks:
McDermott
Collins, Bassey

Would be a lock if signed:
Barlow

Likely to make the team if signed:
Cissoko

That's 12 players. There are three slots available for:
Graham, Payne, Wesley
Bullock
Osman, Mamukelashvili
Birch

Birch is an obvious cut barring some miracle turn-around. So we're talking about six guys for three slots (or four if Cissoko ends up staying in Europe). I know folks want to just assume all the vets are going to get cut to make room for Welsey and Mamu, but as KBD/Samanic and Butler/Freddette showed, the Spurs reward camp play. I'd put Wesley as having the best chance of the lot to make it, but with Branham possibly playing his position and some legit competition for him, he doesn't have to. Unlike any other bubble player, Blake is eligible for a two-way contract. It's arguable that him signing one would be best for both sides. He gets more money and gets to see free agency sooner, and the Spurs get a roster spot while still maintaining some long-term control over an asset. I know some people would be worried about Wesley getting claimed. But honestly as I've pointed out plenty of teams have comparable guys at the end of their rosters already, and fewer teams have the exception or cap space to put in a claim. The Spurs could make it even less palatable by picking up his option in conjunction with waiving him.
nobody can force you to agree with the explanation. but pretending like explanations arent being given and going on with that charade is just you operating in bad faith

[mo7888]

If teams cut every rookie that didn't immediately turn out there would be no players in the league. :lol

C'mon guys, try harder.

I think they explained it pretty well. Basically, Wesley has some things working for him (age, contract that is cost controled, and upside) and he has things working against him (vets who are currently better to play along side Wemby). The FO will have to evaluate those and decide. I don't think it's automatic either way. In most years you go with upside, but with Wemby on the roster having better players around him may outweigh that? Just not sure..

At any rate, I personally think there's a consolidation trade on the horizon that clears this up. If its with Miami i think the most likely outcome is we keep Wesley, move out vets, and take Lowry.... however, if the FO values Herro then I could see Wesley included to Portland as one of the 'young players with upside' they need to justify their asking price'.

[Chinook]

Body is also ignoring that waiving Wesley wouldn't necessarily be the end of his time with the organization. He may be assuming a team will snatch him up instantly. But that's not all that likely. He was not that high of a draft pick, and it's not like he performed all that well last year. Players who have performed a little like Champ, Mamu and Bass were also waived. Other interesting prospects will be waived by other teams. Most clubs don't have the means or space to snatch him up, and he hasn't given a bunch of reasons to be the team that does so. Yes, if the Spurs really like him, they aren't going to expose him to waivers trying to get him on a two-way. They have to be willing to risk losing him. But this is no different than an NFL team waiving a draft pick to put him on the practice squad. Sometimes they get claimed. But they make it through way more than worrying fans assume they will. If it's not with Wes, it will be with a future prospect that the Spurs run this risk. If they lose him, whatever. But I'd put their chances of being able to sign him as being quite high if they time it right.

[Mr. Body]

I think they explained it pretty well. Basically, Wesley has some things working for him (age, contract that is cost controled, and upside) and he has things working against him (vets who are currently better to play along side Wemby). The FO will have to evaluate those and decide. I don't think it's automatic either way. In most years you go with upside, but with Wemby on the roster having better players around him may outweigh that? Just not sure..

At any rate, I personally think there's a consolidation trade on the horizon that clears this up. If its with Miami i think the most likely outcome is we keep Wesley, move out vets, and take Lowry.... however, if the FO values Herro then I could see Wesley included to Portland as one of the 'young players with upside' they need to justify their asking price'.

So we're going to pretend the Spurs front office is as impulsive, fickle, and besotted with short-term thinking as SpursTalk is.

[Chinook]

So we're going to pretend the Spurs front office is as impulsive, fickle, and besotted with short-term thinking as SpursTalk is.

The Spurs have waived underperforming first-rounders during their first or second camps multiple times. They have proven they are willing to do it.

[Mr. Body]

Basically, my impulsive, fickle, short-termer friends:

Cam Payne - no future with this team
Reggie Bullock - no future with this team
etc. - no future with this team

Blake Wesley, who for some reason must have murdered your grandmother - potential future with this team

That's it. That's the thinking the Spurs have made very, very explicit in how they're taking this summer. They're not going to make costly mistakes. They're going to see what they have.

That's it. I still see no explanation why you think Blake was ready to be developed this summer and play during summer activities and then suddenly they want to blow him out of the water. I think it's just deep personal bias of people on this board, an animus against a player that is causing cloudy thinking. But go on I suppose.

[Mr. Body]

The Spurs have waived underperforming first-rounders during their first or second camps multiple times. They have proven they are willing to do it.

Samanic we've already covered. Primo wasn't because of basketball. You know this, right?

[Chinook]

Samanic we've already covered. Primo wasn't because of basketball. You know this, right?

Not talking about them. Talking about Anderson and Jean-Charles.

[Mr. Body]

Not talking about them. Talking about Anderson and Jean-Charles.

The hurt guys?

[Chinook]

Basically, my impulsive, fickle, short-termer friends:

Cam Payne - no future with this team
Reggie Bullock - no future with this team
etc. - no future with this team

Blake Wesley, who for some reason must have murdered your grandmother - potential future with this team

That's it. That's the thinking the Spurs have made very, very explicit in how they're taking this summer. They're not going to make costly mistakes. They're going to see what they have.

That's it. I still see no explanation why you think Blake was ready to be developed this summer and play during summer activities and then suddenly they want to blow him out of the water. I think it's just deep personal bias of people on this board, an animus against a player that is causing cloudy thinking. But go on I suppose.

And yet, the Spurs (and every other team) has waived young guys many times before in lieu of vets who out perform them. Payne, Bullock, Graham and Osman could easily have a future with the team if they re-sign him. You seem to be harping over a "longer" future with the team, like in 5-7 years. But that's not the only timeline that matters -- hell it might not matter much at all. I saw this on RGM:

https://twitter.com/LawMurrayTheNU/status/1679697663204397056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1679697663204397056%7Ctwgr% 5E83c2f6fd0e6734d962a69e92bcf07ebafb512c75%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2 Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2307882start%3D180

(Fucking Twitter being gross) The following is the text of the Tweet linked above.


How much does the NBA change over in 5 years?
None of the 30 NBA teams have more than 4 players left from the 2018-19 rosters
8 teams have no players left from the 2018-19 season


Trying to pretend like the Spurs can be assumed to prioritize guys years and years out at the expense of this season is off-base. Wesley isn't likely to be on the team in five years regardless. Basically no one besides Wembyanama is a particular lock. Sochan is up there, but even he's only likely rather than certain.

[Joseph Kony]

Mrs. Body posts with the energy of an overly dramatic teenage girl on her period

[Chinook]

The hurt guys?

Yes. The guys who they didn't wait to get healthy even though they looked better than Wesley before they got hurt. Turns out, even a Spurs team starved of prospects only cares so much about the long future. A Spurs team with tons of prospects coming in will be even less patient if the situation calls for it.

[Seventyniner]

I see a desire to keep Wesley through the roster crunch as coming from one or both of the sunk cost fallacy ("we used a first round draft pick on him!") and trying to avoid later regret ("what if the Spurs let him go and he becomes really good on another team?").

[mo7888]

So we're going to pretend the Spurs front office is as impulsive, fickle, and besotted with short-term thinking as SpursTalk is.

No, we're acknowledging that we don't know which way they're going to go and that there are legitimate arguments for both paths.

[Ariel]

Basically, my impulsive, fickle, short-termer friends:

Cam Payne - no future with this team
Reggie Bullock - no future with this team
etc. - no future with this team

Blake Wesley, who for some reason must have murdered your grandmother - potential future with this team

That's it. That's the thinking the Spurs have made very, very explicit in how they're taking this summer. They're not going to make costly mistakes. They're going to see what they have.

That's it. I still see no explanation why you think Blake was ready to be developed this summer and play during summer activities and then suddenly they want to blow him out of the water. I think it's just deep personal bias of people on this board, an animus against a player that is causing cloudy thinking. But go on I suppose.
That's too simplistic. I want Blake to stay too, but even if those guys don't have a future with the team (probably true, but not necessarily) they're the best trade candidates on the roster by the trade deadline, if they play well (no reason to think at least some of them can't regain form given the chance), there's a chance you can turn them into further assets (multiple picks, possibly in combination with one year longer contracts). A depleted team that's trying to stay competitive and finds themselves short by the trade deadline may like a Bullock + Payne combination, for instance, in exchange for an injured/out-of-the-rotation vet + multiple picks (like it happens to Josh Richardson). So it's not as simple as comparing Blake vs guys who have no future, but rather guys who, even if are unlikely to have a long term future, have a pretty good chance to be used to get more assets, which may be more valuable to the team.
I think one alternative that Chinook threw out there is interesting to consider: coordinating with Blake's agent a waive + subsequent 2-way deal, with possibly picking up his 3rd year option to disincentivize someone claiming him off waivers. I don't even think the last bit would be necessary, but it's maybe a reasonable gesture that could also help show good will and interest long term in the player. In any case, there are multiple alternatives, and barring a consolidation trade, something's got to give.

[exstatic]

The Spurs have waived underperforming first-rounders during their first or second camps multiple times. They have proven they are willing to do it.

They kept Lonnie for four years, and only dumped Sammich because he was a lazy ass, not for any skills he lacked or development lag. Even his lazy ass got two years.

[Chinook]

They kept Lonnie for four years, and only dumped Sammich because he was a lazy ass, not for any skills he lacked or development lag. Even his lazy ass got two years.

The question isn't whether it's possible that the Spurs will keep Wesley. I think basically all of us think it's likely. The question is whether the Spurs would even waive a guy so early in his career. The Spurs have done so. Some folks don't want to accept it's even possible, which has warped the discussion into this weird castle siege rather than anything productive.

[exstatic]

The question isn't whether it's possible that the Spurs will keep Wesley. I think basically all of us think it's likely. The question is whether the Spurs would even waive a guy so early in his career. The Spurs have done so. Some folks don't want to accept it's even possible, which has warped the discussion into this weird castle siege rather than anything productive.

Other than the weenie-wagger and James Anderson's lisfranc foot fracture, when have they cut a FRP for developmental reasons?

[koriwhat]

Other than the weenie-wagger and James Anderson's lisfranc foot fracture, when have they cut a FRP for developmental reasons?

Primo

update: I take it the weenie-wagger is Primo? :lmao:tu

[Chinook]

Other than the weenie-wagger and James Anderson's lisfranc foot fracture, when have they cut a FRP for developmental reasons?

LJC.

[exstatic]

LJC.

Knee issue reasons. Should have had him in my injury/perversions exception list.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Locks:
Jones
Vassell, Branham, Champangie
Johnson
Wembanayam, Sochan

Near-locks:
McDermott
Collins, Bassey

Would be a lock if signed:
Barlow

Likely to make the team if signed:
Cissoko

That's 12 players. There are three slots available for:
Graham, Payne, Wesley
Bullock
Osman, Mamukelashvili
Birch

Birch is an obvious cut barring some miracle turn-around. So we're talking about six guys for three slots (or four if Cissoko ends up staying in Europe). I know folks want to just assume all the vets are going to get cut to make room for Welsey and Mamu, but as KBD/Samanic and Butler/Freddette showed, the Spurs reward camp play. I'd put Wesley as having the best chance of the lot to make it, but with Branham possibly playing his position and some legit competition for him, he doesn't have to. Unlike any other bubble player, Blake is eligible for a two-way contract. It's arguable that him signing one would be best for both sides. He gets more money and gets to see free agency sooner, and the Spurs get a roster spot while still maintaining some long-term control over an asset. I know some people would be worried about Wesley getting claimed. But honestly as I've pointed out plenty of teams have comparable guys at the end of their rosters already, and fewer teams have the exception or cap space to put in a claim. The Spurs could make it even less palatable by picking up his option in conjunction with waiving him.

I would remove McDermott from the near-locks and move him into the tradeable category. There is a chance that with the addition of Bullock, the Spurs could just trade Graham, McDermott and Osman for a single player who could be a swingman/shooter. And then see who among Mamu and Wesley plays upto potential in camp and then waive one among them. That's my feeling.

[Chinook]

But he wasn't injured. He just couldn't perform after his injury. It was play related. While you can exclude him for whichever reason you choose, there comes a point where the number of exceptions are significant. The Spurs have cut like 20 percent of there last 15 first-rounders within two years. Maybe the belief that they would never do it again.

[poopbox]

Bullock and Osman are trash with size, and thus nba players. Wesley is playing below jones, cissoko, Payne, graham. Will have to fight sisdoko and rice to get minutes in austin.

It might be for his own benefit to leave because he Won't get minutes this year, and every year after gets harder

I don't think Bullock and Osman will have anything to do with Wesley playing time since the Spurs aren't trying to win anything this year. And if they were it sure as shit won't be because of Bullock and Osman.

Expect both to get the Thad Young treatment tbh. Gone at the deadline for some seconds. Bullock already did his job and got a 1st round pick swap in 7 years:rollin

[cjw]

Should have cut/waived Birch, or at least try for a disabled player exception. Stevens will land somewhere, he wasn't that bad of a player or as constantly injured like Birch or Romeo Langford.

Don’t really need a disabled player exception when you’re under the cap (and you also have the room exception available). These random expiring contracts, even if they’re guys who will never play, might be valuable in trades ahead of final roster cutdowns as teams often need to aggregate more salary into deals in order to make trades work.

[timtonymanu]

Mrs. Body posts with the energy of an overly dramatic teenage girl on her period

So condescending for being such a total moron

[sfernald]

So we're going to pretend the Spurs front office is as impulsive, fickle, and besotted with short-term thinking as SpursTalk is.

He’s not popping in his second summer league even a little bit. I’d rather put Wemby around NBA players at this point. We aren’t a developmental team any longer. It’s all about what is best to build around Wemby. It’s very arguable but not certain that Wesley would be a waste of a roster spot and precious team resources (coaching, etc). In other words, the coffee is for closers.

[tonight...you]

He’s not popping in his second summer league even a little bit. I’d rather put Wemby around NBA players at this point. We aren’t a developmental team any longer. It’s all about what is best to build around Wemby. It’s very arguable but not certain that Wesley would be a waste of a roster spot and precious team resources (coaching, etc). In other words, the coffee is for closers.
Dammit man! Now I know what my late night movie is going to be...

[rascal]

Wesley isn't going anywhere this year.

This year still isn't going to be about winning. It's going to be an experimental season.

The Spurs have already come out and said they are rolling out the same team with minor changes to see what they have. Reason for all the minor moves the Spurs have made so far.
That's why we haven't seen any major trades to bring in anyone who will shake up what they had last year.

[jesterbobman]

Thinking that Wesley being potentially cut is giving up on Development is SO STUPID.

There are other players who need to develop, and the Spurs should value having a good environment for them to develop in.

The Wesley (potential) cut would be valuing the development of Wemby / Sochan / Vassell / Champ / Bassey / Dom... with 48 minutes of competent PG play over Blake / Wemby / Sochan / Vassell / Champ / Bassey / Dom... with whatever amount below 48 minutes you get from Wesley playing PG minutes. You can judge either way on that, and the Spurs will judge based on camp, and what they see until then, and whether they can pull off a consolidation trade.

Entirely possible he's waived, not claimed, and the Spurs put him on the Austin roster with instructions of how he'd need to develop to be valued as a minimum salary pick up in year 3 by them / another team - Rim finishing, drop off passes, shooting off the dribble, etc.

[exstatic]

He’s not popping in his second summer league even a little bit. I’d rather put Wemby around NBA players at this point. We aren’t a developmental team any longer. It’s all about what is best to build around Wemby. It’s very arguable but not certain that Wesley would be a waste of a roster spot and precious team resources (coaching, etc). In other words, the coffee is for closers.

That might be one of the most ridiculous things posted since the end of last season. Other than Doug, devonte, Keldon, and Devin, EVERYONE is on a development track.

[sfernald]

That might be one of the most ridiculous things posted since the end of last season. Other than Doug, devonte, Keldon, and Devin, EVERYONE is on a development track.

not dleague I mean which is what we were until we hit the lottery. All those other players including even a player like Sidy have shown enough promise.

[Mr. Body]

He’s not popping in his second summer league even a little bit. I’d rather put Wemby around NBA players at this point. We aren’t a developmental team any longer. It’s all about what is best to build around Wemby. It’s very arguable but not certain that Wesley would be a waste of a roster spot and precious team resources (coaching, etc). In other words, the coffee is for closers.

Man the collective takes by the forum on this issue get dumber and dumber.

[jjspur]

We can look at this as a developmental thing or as a financial thing. Wesley just hasn't developed as quickly as some would like. He's no one special, the same has happened to many other better players for various assorted reasons, think Cam Reddish, talented but can't quite put it together - and on a minimum contract now. Pretty bad for a former top 10 pick on his fourth team - he's probably just an arrogant asshole or something.

Thing is the spurs do believe in development - you just have to show it. Champagnie over like 20 games developed his talent into a 4 year contract. Mamu also got a new contract. Wesley was told to go to summer league and show what he had and unfortunately it wasn't all that much. Rice and Sissoko took advantage of the situation and will probably get two way contracts. (Rice got one). Time may be running out for Wesley.

Financially, now that we are over the minimum salary floor and with extra players, it may make more sense to cut someone that makes 2.5 million as opposed to someone who makes 6 million plus like Bullock or Payne to keep us above the floor. So again the spurs have to do some smart moves now, rather than just throwing away a player and his salary. A smart trade or two would really help.

This isn't last year any more, just keeping so so players because we were tanking. With Wemby on board we are actually trying to win and that usually happens with players who don't need as much development time as Wesley.

[exstatic]

We can look at this as a developmental thing or as a financial thing. Wesley just hasn't developed as quickly as some would like. He's no one special, the same has happened to many other better players for various assorted reasons, think Cam Reddish, talented but can't quite put it together - and on a minimum contract now. Pretty bad for a former top 10 pick on his fourth team - he's probably just an arrogant asshole or something.

Thing is the spurs do believe in development - you just have to show it. Champagnie over like 20 games developed his talent into a 4 year contract. Mamu also got a new contract. Wesley was told to go to summer league and show what he had and unfortunately it wasn't all that much. Rice and Sissoko took advantage of the situation and will probably get two way contracts. (Rice got one). Time may be running out for Wesley.

Financially, now that we are over the minimum salary floor and with extra players, it may make more sense to cut someone that makes 2.5 million as opposed to someone who makes 6 million plus like Bullock or Payne to keep us above the floor. So again the spurs have to do some smart moves now, rather than just throwing away a player and his salary. A smart trade or two would really help.

This isn't last year any more, just keeping so so players because we were tanking. With Wemby on board we are actually trying to win and that usually happens with players who don't need as much development time as Wesley.

Cut guaranteed contracts do not come of the cap, so there is no danger of dropping below the floor, no matter who gets cut. Short of an aggregating trade, our cap figure will not go lower.

They’ve had no press conferences for Cedi, Bullock, or Payne. No numbers have been assigned. If I’m one of the three, I don’t want to be a training camp cut, I want to be cut before training camp so I can catch on with a team with roster spots open

[sfernald]

Man the collective takes by the forum on this issue get dumber and dumber.

Well, you will see. It will very quickly not be about the young players any more. Not when you have a potential GOAT on your roster.

It will be like what Lebron and Giannis and Jokic built teams do. Get the best players possible that fit for that team each year for a shot at the championship. There will be four or so players that stick from year to year with Wemby, but the rest will literally change every year depending on circumstances.

Development will still happen but it will take a back burner now. Don’t believe me just watch what happens in the coming 2-3 years.

[jjspur]

Gotcha. Since they are guaranteed contracts, they still count against our floor which we've already gotten above. I'd still cut Wesley. He isn't all that valuable in the short term. In the longer term he might develop a bit, but we also have a number of draft picks (thank you Brian Wright) coming in the next several years, some of which will possibly compete with him for minutes. Hopefully the better current or future player(s) get to stick with the spurs.