Wembanyama working on the sky hook

[R. DeMurre]

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/07/19/spurs-victor-wembanyama-practicing-skyhook-possible-addition-repertoire

Good news! It has always mystified me that more bigs don't try to add this to their games.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I posted a month ago the skyhook would be the perfect addition for him. If he became proficient at it we’d be talking 5 plus MVPs. It’s unstoppable, low injury risk, and exerts minimal energy. He could be a scoring monster and still have energy to play balls out on defense.

[TekXX]

I'm sure Kareem would gladly work with him if was asked.

[exstatic]

I'm sure Kareem would gladly work with him if was asked.

The last player we had work with a retired Laker HOFer defected. No fucking thanks. He can watch film.

[tonight...you]

The last player we had work with a retired Laker HOFer defected. No fucking thanks. He can watch film.
https://media.tenor.com/grJTbOk3JGAAAAAC/frozen-elsa.gif

[playblair]

the skyhook requires use of the off arm to shield defender which is illegal........the move can not be used in modern nba for that reason.....

[KobesAchilles]

the skyhook requires use of the off arm to shield defender which is illegal........the move can not be used in modern nba for that reason.....
Superstars get away with everything. We got one. I expect the league to let that shit go

[Ariel]

Wemby is already cheating as it is, if he adds a sky hook he should be outlawed.

[lefty20]

Superstars get away with everything. We got one. I expect the league to let that shit go

Exactly. Nephew, PG 13, Giannis & LBJ use that off arm illegally every fucking time they get into the paint. League aint got the balls to call that on the superstars. At least not more than once every two weeks or so.

[BatManu20]

Doesn’t even have to be a sky hook. Just a consistent go-to jump hook would be lethal at 7’4.

[rogcl1]

the skyhook requires use of the off arm to shield defender which is illegal........the move can not be used in modern nba for that reason.....

Thats bullshit. The off arm is used all the time. It can be used to fend off defenders. When it is used to extend and push off that is the foul.

[Obstructed_View]

It's such a fucking easy shot to master with both hands.

The other shot I think Victor should bring back is the shot that put the Spurs on the map: the finger roll. Wilt had a finger roll that he would use in the post that was amazing.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

He could easily be well above the rim every time he shoots this shot. If he learns to just toss the ball down towards the hoop anyone blocking it would be goaltending. Basically an unstoppable move.

[TDMVPDPOY]

needs to get into position first...dude always gets pushed out of position when he catches the ball down low

[playblair]

needs to get into position first...dude always gets pushed out of position when he catches the ball down low

http://youtu.be/oyvnm6TfmpQ

[Millennial_Messiah]

Superstars get away with everything. We got one. I expect the league to let that shit go

Meh... Timmy always got called for the dumbest shit and on offense he got fouled WAY more times than was ever called

[CGD]

http://youtu.be/oyvnm6TfmpQ

That is no sky hook

[Twisted_Dawg]

It's such a fucking easy shot to master with both hands.

The other shot I think Victor should bring back is the shot that put the Spurs on the map: the finger roll. Wilt had a finger roll that he would use in the post that was amazing.

Might need to bring back the master of the finger tip roll and let him tutor Victor.

[Spurs Homer]

Kareem had great footwork which is the first thing to master when learning a proper hook shot...
Wemby has great footwork already and will only get better.

Kareem would keep defenders off balance by being able to back up and "place defenders" on his hip and in position to take his steps and the actual shot was automatic.

Kareem also could shoot the sky hook from 12-15 feet consistently.

Wemby is going to nail it pretty quickly - i think.

[slick'81]

So i guess were going to will this shit into existence :lol

[Knoxxx]

It would be better than the Admiral who had two moves, dribble past you or take a jumper...

[south side spur]

Don’t forget Jokic. “He’s a genius in the paint” It looks like he’s throwing chicken wings and hooking the defender every time he scores down low.

[Dex]

Don’t forget Jokic. “He’s a genius in the paint” It looks like he’s throwing chicken wings and hooking the defender every time he scores down low.

I would say his passing is on genius level...but yeah, his personal post offense is basically him just being gigantic and overpowering people (plus he can shoot, which helps)

[Knoxxx]

Don’t forget Jokic. “He’s a genius in the paint” It looks like he’s throwing chicken wings and hooking the defender every time he scores down low.

The joker is obviously crafty and can shoot, but what also stands out to me is his exceptionally high release point, from inside all the way out the 3-point line.

[couchman]

I don't think Wemby needs a sky hook.
It's a fun idea to imagine him with an unblockable shot, but the tradeoff on the sky hook is that it makes the shot longer than it has to be and it is vulnerable to the blind double team.
Most of Wemby's jumpers and jump hooks and anything else he can do will already be unblockable without making those sacrifices.

[Seventyniner]

So i guess were going to will this shit into existence :lol

Wemby himself said he was working on it. This isn't just message board speculation.

[Obstructed_View]

It would be better than the Admiral who had two moves, dribble past you or take a jumper...
So stupid.

[spurraider21]

It would be better than the Admiral who had two moves, dribble past you or take a jumper...
The admiral was a more prolific and efficient scorer than duncan who had all the moves in the world

[baseline bum]

The admiral was a more prolific and efficient scorer than duncan who had all the moves in the world

Bend over, I'll show you all the moves in the world

[koriwhat]

It would be better than the Admiral who had two moves, dribble past you or take a jumper...

Bro, Robinson had the iconic behind the head dunk! Got to love the Admiral!!!

[baseline bum]

Bro, Robinson had the iconic behind the head dunk! Got to love the Admiral!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DR-FjAUrGU

[koriwhat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DR-FjAUrGU

I miss those days so much. They seemed magical even though we got romped by the Blazers in the PO's all the time in the early 90's. Take me back!

[spurs10]

With Tim and David as mentors, Wemby is tight where he belongs. Come on October!

[dbestpro]

Jabbar was 7-2 225 pounds. Wemby is 7-4 230 pounds. Jabbar played to the age of 42 going against much more fierce players the like Chamberlin 7-1,275. Wemby is gonna be around for a long while.

[BillMc]

Look at this analysis and see if it would work today.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91u98O0IfUY

[koriwhat]

With Tim and David as mentors, Wemby is tight where he belongs. Come on October!

That's what the MSM is missing rn... They haven't even touched on the mentorship Wemby is getting from our top 4 HOF's rn in Parker, Ginobili, Duncan, and Robison. Wemby was at dinner with 3 of those HOF's day 1 and day 3, I believe, Wemby was reviewing film with Parker. He's going to be unstoppable with those 4 HOF's plus Pop in his corner for the foreseeable future. :tu

[kobyz]

I don't see the point, with his ability and standing reach he could just take a regular jumper instead

[slick'81]

Wemby himself said he was working on it. This isn't just message board speculation.

let me see him use that shit in a game though :lol

[Knoxxx]

The admiral was a more prolific and efficient scorer than duncan who had all the moves in the world

Robinson was amazing off the dribble and had a sweet jumper. Then of course the incredible athleticism. Nothing but love but at the same time we know he was never known for much of any post moves because he didn’t really need to develop any. There were certainly times many of us wished he had a couple go to post moves though, beyond just dribbling past people or dunking.

[cd98]

It would be better than the Admiral who had two moves, dribble past you or take a jumper...

No reason for Admiral to develop post moves when he could dribble past any center, even when he got old, and dunk on them. He did have a few moves, but to be honest, I don't know that I've seen a player more easily get alley op dunks than David Robinson. It's not like James Harden was passing him the ball either. It was alley ops with Willie Anderson.

[Obstructed_View]

Robinson was amazing off the dribble and had a sweet jumper. Then of course the incredible athleticism. Nothing but love but at the same time we know he was never known for much of any post moves because he didn’t really need to develop any. There were certainly times many of us wished he had a couple go to post moves though, beyond just dribbling past people or dunking.
This is such a dumb fuck take. Robinson was an elite post player. He routinely beat players with his back to the basket. He didn't rely on his post game because he was far and away the best face up center in the history of the game.

What are all these times we wished he had post moves? When was Robinson the reason his team got upset in the playoffs? Because I remember seeing a guy who carried his team every year and had teammates who couldn't do their jobs to take any pressure off him at all.

[Knoxxx]

This is such a dumb fuck take. Robinson was an elite post player. He routinely beat players with his back to the basket. He didn't rely on his post game because he was far and away the best face up center in the history of the game.

What are all these times we wished he had post moves? When was Robinson the reason his team got upset in the playoffs? Because I remember seeing a guy who carried his team every year and had teammates who couldn't do their jobs to take any pressure off him at all.

I stand by the comment and think your take is much dumber, actually.

[Obstructed_View]

I stand by the comment and think your take is much dumber, actually.
You stand by it without being able to name a single time a Spurs fan walked away from a game, a series, or a season saying, "gee, if only David had a couple go-to post moves".

Retard.

[Knoxxx]

You stand by it without being able to name a single time a Spurs fan walked away from a game, a series, or a season saying, "gee, if only David had a couple go-to post moves".

Retard.

Troll bait accepted, though I think you are just being disingenuous.

Olajuwon dominates Robinson - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0)

Shaq vs. Duncan '03 West Semis Game 6 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ)

Those are two perfect examples of what I was talking about. Hakeem and Duncan were able to turn their games up to another level in the playoffs that we never saw Robinson achieve. Was Robinson great? Of course! But not viewed as on par with Hakeem and Duncan which was the entire point of why post moves development and other fundamentals like footwork are key to reaching that pinnacle.

I don't appreciate you pretending to be less knowledgeable on this than you likely are. If you keep that up, you may need to change your moniker to "Obstructed_Douche".

Now, maybe you were trying to flame me for not explicitly providing those obvious examples. No need to be such a dick head to make that type of point, "tbh".

Maybe you are just angrily constipated, and need to change your moniker to "Obstructed_Poop". Try drinking more water, if so.

Thank you for your patronage.

[exstatic]

Up until he was 20, Robinson was a wing player. Then, he grew an additional 6”. I always considered him to be a face up scorer, what they would call a jumbo wing today.

[Extra Stout]

Often, the strengths of Robinson’s game were neutralized by the slower pace and greater physicality of the playoffs. His face-up game was taken away, and so he was reduced to a mid-range jump shooter.

Not always, though. For example, he dismantled Golden State in 1990-91, but his teammates were extremely shitty. His true number of win shares that year was probably something like 30.

He’s like Garnett. As soon as he got another star to play with, he won. The narrative is that he couldn’t do it as the #1 guy, that he needed to be the sidekick to win, but his +/- in 1999 was absurd. Robinson probably should have been DPOY in ‘99.

[Extra Stout]

Wembanyama has kind of a perverse advantage over Robinson, being 19 rather than 24. First, the team is not going into win-now mode and assembling a still-flawed team with a short shelf life like the early ‘90s Spurs did. Second, it’s going to take him a few years to have the impact that 50 did as a rookie, so if his teammates are shitty, he won’t be able to carry them to a winning record by himself, so there will be more high draft picks to buttress the talent level around him.

I don’t think Victor needs a sky hook. Kareem developed it because his handles as a kid weren’t great and he was always being stripped. With the hook shot, he hardly needed to dribble — just receive the ball in his spot and immediately go high. Wemby’s jump shot already is unguardable.

[Knoxxx]

The admiral was a more prolific and efficient scorer than duncan who had all the moves in the world

As was stated, Robinson was carrying his team while Duncan played with teams stacked with fellow hall of famers. Using Robinson vs Duncan career scoring isn’t apples to apples at all, if that is what your were thinking.

The fundamentals was exactly why people rate Duncan over Robinson. Otherwise the Admiral seemed to have the edge to me.

[Extra Stout]

The fundamentals was exactly why people rate Duncan over Robinson. Otherwise the Admiral seemed to have the edge to me.
On the other hand, Robinson himself has said it was obvious almost immediately that Duncan could do things on offense David never could. It’s why 50 was so easily willing to concede the primary role on offense.

[spurraider21]

On the other hand, Robinson himself has said it was obvious almost immediately that Duncan could do things on offense David never could. It’s why 50 was so easily willing to concede the primary role on offense.
Robinson also was more efficient from the field

[Knoxxx]

On the other hand, Robinson himself has said it was obvious almost immediately that Duncan could do things on offense David never could. It’s why 50 was so easily willing to concede the primary role on offense.

Yes I recall and became the messenger that got shot for saying it, LOL.

Actually I assumed a few good Spurs fans would speak up for the Admiral, seeings how great a player he was and and even better person. That said, I’m as big a DRob fan as anyone. The idea was coupling DRobs talents with some more fundamentals and/or post moves. Imagine that! The what could have been element.

On the sky hook topic, to me it will all boil down to whether it is a high percentage shot. Do we have any idea if Kareem’s was or did it mostly just look great on the highlights?

Edit: it was an easy Google to find this link estimating the Kareem sky hook at 50 FG%:

https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2020/3/27/21191474/skyhook-kareem-abdul-jabbar

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Robinson also was more efficient from the field
Duncan played in a more competitive era and was more efficient in the playoffs

[R. DeMurre]

One very interesting angle for me is the possible connection of the sky hook to Kareem's longevity-- as a shot it has less physicality attached to it than a typical paint post move. It's hard to make a definite connection, but Kareem's longevity and durability were legendary-- 11 seasons of 80 or more games played, and 18 seasons of 70 or more. Is it possible to view the sky hook as a relative to a type of load management, but one that discards sitting? I think it's a reasonable theory.

[Ariel]

One very interesting angle for me is the possible connection of the sky hook to Kareem's longevity-- as a shot it has less physicality attached to it than a typical paint post move. It's hard to make a definite connection, but Kareem's longevity and durability were legendary-- 11 seasons of 80 or more games played, and 18 seasons of 70 or more. Is it possible to view the sky hook as a relative to a type of load management, but one that discards sitting? I think it's a reasonable theory.
Yup, Kareem retired at 42 with mind boggling availability, this is the breakdown of games played for all of his 20 seasons career: 62, 65, 74, 76 (x2), 78, 79 (x3), 80 (x4), 81 (x2), 82 (x5). Even at his lowest, the guy played a very respectable amount of games, never missing more than 20 games a season. And that doesn't even doesn't count his college career, where he played 3 seasons (apparently freshmen weren't eligible at the time).
The point about the hook shot is very good, in that having a go to move that's gentler on your body both allows you to lessen the damage and also keeps you effective even when your athleticism has declined significantly. With how mobile a big needs to be nowadays I don't think 42 is a reasonable, but if Wemby adds a bag of tricks to his repertoire (hook shot in the paint, improves on his jump shot from the perimeter) and plays alongside a more physical partner, that along with his training routine will go a long way into keeping him healthy and available far longer than projected by most.

[Knoxxx]

Kareem was lanky and his heavy jump rope workouts were legendary. Wemby looks like a workout fiend and the emphasis on core and not adding weight just for the sake of it but rather strength bodes well for his longevity IMO. He needs to get a bit stronger as we saw and bring the ball to his body quicker on defensive rebounds but he’s real wiry and stronger already than many realize. He also seems to have that knack for controlled use of his size and using a measured level of effort that Duncan so beautifully displayed.

On that last note, I suspect DRob may have advised Duncan against trying to fly around like he did and stay closer to the ground to avoid the type of injuries that he experienced.

[deanoden]

It depends on what type of player Wemby develops to. A high percentage sky hook requires good low post positioning to catch the ball as close to the basket as possible.

[rogcl1]

Duncan played in a more competitive era and was more efficient in the playoffs

Duncan had a better supporting cast.

[TD 21]

Jabbar was 7-2 225 pounds. Wemby is 7-4 230 pounds. Jabbar played to the age of 42 going against much more fierce players the like Chamberlin 7-1,275. Wemby is gonna be around for a long while.

That was Abdul-Jabbar's and Chamberlain's listed weights when drafted. They eventually would go on to to play at 267 and 292-301, respectively.



Duncan had a better supporting cast.

Not in the early aughts, yet they still had a top few winning percentage in the league and dethroned the three-time defending champions with no second star.

Robinson, for all his efficiency (which was boosted by a combination of superior physical tools and playing no pre-prime and few post prime seasons), didn't have the skillset to be the hub of an offense on a championship team.

[Obstructed_View]

Troll bait accepted, though I think you are just being disingenuous.

Olajuwon dominates Robinson - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0)

Shaq vs. Duncan '03 West Semis Game 6 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ)

Those are two perfect examples of what I was talking about. Hakeem and Duncan were able to turn their games up to another level in the playoffs that we never saw Robinson achieve. Was Robinson great? Of course! But not viewed as on par with Hakeem and Duncan which was the entire point of why post moves development and other fundamentals like footwork are key to reaching that pinnacle.

I don't appreciate you pretending to be less knowledgeable on this than you likely are. If you keep that up, you may need to change your moniker to "Obstructed_Douche".

Now, maybe you were trying to flame me for not explicitly providing those obvious examples. No need to be such a dick head to make that type of point, "tbh".

Maybe you are just angrily constipated, and need to change your moniker to "Obstructed_Poop". Try drinking more water, if so.

Thank you for your patronage.
Robinson dominated Hakeem head to head for their careers. The exception was the playoff series, where Hakeem had Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Clyde Drexler and Mario Elie. Swap Robinson to the rockets and Hakeem to the Spurs and it's a sweep.

Regardless, there is not a person on earth who has ever suggested that the Spurs would have won that series if Robinson had more moves in the post.

The Spurs won in 03. Duncan was the post player. Nobody wished Robinson had more post moves after that game.

Still a retard.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Robinson dominated Hakeem head to head for their careers. The exception was the playoff series, where Hakeem had Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Clyde Drexler and Mario Elie. Swap Robinson to the rockets and Hakeem to the Spurs and it's a sweep.

Regardless, there is not a person on earth who has ever suggested that the Spurs would have won that series if Robinson had more moves in the post.

The Spurs won in 03. Duncan was the post player. Nobody wished Robinson had more post moves after that game.

Still a retard.
because the Rockets didn't have a roster until the mid-90s because of Sampson's injuries and a drug scandal.
as soon as good players appeared around Hakim, it became immediately clear to everyone who was the top 2 player of the 90s and who was the choker in the playoffs
only homer would seriously compare these two players

[cutewizard]

Who has better post moves?

Hakeem? Or Duncan? or McHale?

[ambchang]

I personally have mchale. It was really unreal. The thing is that he doesn’t need much space to make it work. Hakeem’s dream shake requires quite a bit of room to operate and Duncan relies a bit (at least the threat) of his 15 to 18 footers to open up room. Mchale just parks his butt in the paint and ball fake the crap out of everyone using like a five foot radius.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I personally have mchale. It was really unreal. The thing is that he doesn’t need much space to make it work. Hakeem’s dream shake requires quite a bit of room to operate and Duncan relies a bit (at least the threat) of his 15 to 18 footers to open up room. Mchale just parks his butt in the paint and ball fake the crap out of everyone using like a five foot radius.

Good points on KM. Might have to agree with you.

[rjv]

mchale was a beast=amazing footwork.

[spurraider21]

mchale's game was much easier. right handed jump hook. turnaround over his left shoulder. or up and under. those 3 moves required very little setup, very little room to operate, and account for most of his production. didnt need anything else because of his lanky build and long arms. the whole torture rack pump fake stuff are highlights but other than the up and under, not really something he did all that often

i wasnt alive when he played, so just speaking off finals footage that ive seen tbh

also was simply more efficient than hakeem/duncan, but had the luxury of playing alongside a top 5/10 all timer


duncan kinda just like to overpower players a lot of the time. wasnt always the most fancy work, just get right up into a guys chest and kind of throw it up with his right at just about any arm angle that was needed. but he did have the footwork, quickness, and handles for the occasional blow by for a dunk since he could go just about any direction at any time and defenders had to guess to take away the easy jump hook. for all the stuff about the bank shot, the midrange shot wasnt kind to him by the %'s. from 10-16 feet for his career he shot under 41%, and basically shot right at 41% from 16ft thru the 3 point line (mostly that flat straightaway shot from the top of the key)

the bank shot was pretty but was more effective to set up the drive into the jump hook or a sweeping dunk


cant speak nearly as much as to hakeem. but he just appears to be soo much smoother than duncan was. like he was gliding around

[lefty]

I'm sure Kareem would gladly work with him if was asked.
Kream doesn't even acknowledge his own kids

[TekXX]

Kream doesn't even acknowledge his own kids

Not many NBA players do but ask them to help a fellow athlete, they'll do that.

[spurraider21]

Kream doesn't even acknowledge his own kids
duncan barely acknowledged his wife tbh

[Russ]

Yup, Kareem retired at 42 with mind boggling availability, this is the breakdown of games played for all of his 20 seasons career: 62, 65, 74, 76 (x2), 78, 79 (x3), 80 (x4), 81 (x2), 82 (x5). Even at his lowest, the guy played a very respectable amount of games, never missing more than 20 games a season. And that doesn't even doesn't count his college career, where he played 3 seasons (apparently freshmen weren't eligible at the time).

Although freshmen were not allowed to play Kareem's (Lew Alcindor's) freshman year, Kareem's freshman UCLA team did pay the NCAA Champion UCLA varsity that year in an exhibition -- and beat them!

A great sports story if there ever was one.

[baseline bum]

Kream doesn't even acknowledge his own kids

Are you talking about the murderer?

[Knoxxx]

because the Rockets didn't have a roster until the mid-90s because of Sampson's injuries and a drug scandal.
as soon as good players appeared around Hakim, it became immediately clear to everyone who was the top 2 player of the 90s and who was the choker in the playoffs
only homer would seriously compare these two players

I’m glad someone called this out. DRob had some very nice highlights that MVP regular season dunking on Hakeem and that may be what he is referencing. The stats don’t bear out that David dominated Hakeem in any way, shape or form even in the regular season though. In 1994-5 Hakeem outscored DRob by over 7 points per game across 6 regular season games. Anyone comparing regular season success to playoff success is also an obvious tool were that even actually supported by the facts.

What is really lame is for someone to want to argue about this and draw out the discussion. It is better to quickly acknowledge the truth and move on.

Or as the saying goes it is better to be thought an idiot…

[John B]

Now if he can modify that to a fade-away skyhook :lol, man that would be something.

Didn’t Manut Bol have the Space Hook??

[ambchang]

because the Rockets didn't have a roster until the mid-90s because of Sampson's injuries and a drug scandal.
as soon as good players appeared around Hakim, it became immediately clear to everyone who was the top 2 player of the 90s and who was the choker in the playoffs
only homer would seriously compare these two players


I’m glad someone called this out. DRob had some very nice highlights that MVP regular season dunking on Hakeem and that may be what he is referencing. The stats don’t bear out that David dominated Hakeem in any way, shape or form even in the regular season though. In 1994-5 Hakeem outscored DRob by over 7 points per game across 6 regular season games. Anyone comparing regular season success to playoff success is also an obvious tool were that even actually supported by the facts.

What is really lame is for someone to want to argue about this and draw out the discussion. It is better to quickly acknowledge the truth and move on.

Or as the saying goes it is better to be thought an idiot…

But wouldn’t the argument goes both ways? Why did hakeem get the benefit of the doubt with a bad roster while robinson gets labelled a choker? Hakeem had his greatest years surrounded by three point shooters. Robinson had Avery Johnson and Vinny del negro.

[Knoxxx]

But wouldn’t the argument goes both ways? Why did hakeem get the benefit of the doubt with a bad roster while robinson gets labelled a choker? Hakeem had his greatest years surrounded by three point shooters. Robinson had Avery Johnson and Vinny del negro.

Spurs had prime Elliot and Rodman. Either of those teams gets blown off the floor by the 13-14 Spurs. The 1 v 1 matchup was the point. The larger discussion was about whether big men should develop post moves, such as the sky hook.

All I said was yes, post moves are a must IMO, look at 95 and then 03 Duncan wrecking prime Shaq.

[baseline bum]

Spurs had prime Elliot and Rodman. Either of those teams gets blown off the floor by the 13-14 Spurs. The 1 v 1 matchup was the point. The larger discussion was about whether big men should develop post moves, such as the sky hook.

All I said was yes, post moves are a must IMO, look at 95 and then 03 Duncan wrecking prime Shaq.

Not trying to argue David was as good as Hakeem was, but Rodman was not a plus. He was a statpadder who left Horry wide open for the game winner in Game 1 of that series so he could try to add another rebound to his line on the boxscore and then in a must win Game 2 jacked up three three pointers in the first quarter to force Bob Hill to bench him. Then after the Spurs won two games in Houston to bring the series back to 2-2 he decided to be really late to practice to get in another pissing match with Bob Hill. Fuck Rodman, he was a net negative to the team in 95 which is why Chicago was the only team interested in trading for that cancer and why they only had to give up Will Perdue.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

But wouldn’t the argument goes both ways? Why did hakeem get the benefit of the doubt with a bad roster while robinson gets labelled a choker? Hakeem had his greatest years surrounded by three point shooters. Robinson had Avery Johnson and Vinny del negro.
because Admiral underperformed in the playoffs year after year
here are the statistics of both from 24 to 30 years (even without Hakeem's championship seasons)

Olajuwon
regular season:
23.6 pts 12.8 reb 2.6 ast 2.1 stl 3.8 blk 51.0 fg%
play-offs:
26.8 pts 13.2 reb 3.1 ast 1.8 stl 4.2 blk 54.6 fg%

Robinson
regular season:
25.6 pts 11.8 reb 3.1 ast 1.7 stl 3.6 blk 52.6 fg%
play-offs:
24.0 pts 11.8 reb 2.9 ast 1.3 stl 3.1 blk 48.8 fg%

[Atl Spur]

Wembanyama has kind of a perverse advantage over Robinson, being 19 rather than 24. First, the team is not going into win-now mode and assembling a still-flawed team with a short shelf life like the early ‘90s Spurs did. Second, it’s going to take him a few years to have the impact that 50 did as a rookie, so if his teammates are shitty, he won’t be able to carry them to a winning record by himself, so there will be more high draft picks to buttress the talent level around him.

I don’t think Victor needs a sky hook. Kareem developed it because his handles as a kid weren’t great and he was always being stripped. With the hook shot, he hardly needed to dribble — just receive the ball in his spot and immediately go high. Wemby’s jump shot already is unguardable.

VW needs to use every advantage afforded to him…even the skyhook. The more tools the merrier.

[exstatic]

VW needs to use every advantage afforded to him…even the skyhook. The more tools the merrier.

Kareem went to the sky hook when the NCAA outlawed the dunk for a few stupid years. It was the most efficient non-dunk shot, but there's no reason at his height and length that he shouldn't just dunk everything in sight.

[KobesAchilles]

I love Robinson but he wasn’t as good as Hakeem. He was better than Akeem. But Hakeem was on a different level. But the 95 series doesn’t prove anything other than shitty coaching. Imagine not double teaming Hakeem. I mean seriously who would do such a stupid thing. Meanwhile the Rockets (Rudy T) correctly double and triple teamed Dave the whole series.

That being said, it would’ve been nice to see an actual team built around Robinson. Like imagine if he could kick it out to Horry, Cassell, Maxwell, Smith. Instead he had no shooters other than Elliot. Maybe Chuck Person but he was always a no factor in the playoffs. Vinny, AJ, Rodman couldn’t shoot worth shit.

I can’t compare Duncan to Robinson though since I don’t think even Duncan could’ve done much better than DRob during that early 90s era. Imagine having 6 different coaches in 5 years and your owner won’t pay for anybody good. McCombs would’ve let Manu and Tony walk

[lefty]

I love Robinson but he wasn’t as good as Hakeem. He was better than Akeem. But Hakeem was on a different level. But the 95 series doesn’t prove anything other than shitty coaching. Imagine not double teaming Hakeem. I mean seriously who would do such a stupid thing. Meanwhile the Rockets (Rudy T) correctly double and triple teamed Dave the whole series.

That being said, it would’ve been nice to see an actual team built around Robinson. Like imagine if he could kick it out to Horry, Cassell, Maxwell, Smith. Instead he had no shooters other than Elliot. Maybe Chuck Person but he was always a no factor in the playoffs. Vinny, AJ, Rodman couldn’t shoot worth shit.

I can’t compare Duncan to Robinson though since I don’t think even Duncan could’ve done much better than DRob during that early 90s era. Imagine having 6 different coaches in 5 years and your owner won’t pay for anybody good. McCombs would’ve let Manu and Tony walk
This

Dream was better than Robinson, but a lof of things went wrong during the 95 WCF as well (Rodman being a dumbass for instance lol)

As for context, nobody was going to leave the Spurs backcourt wide open :lol, whereas Dream was surrounded by an army of ultra clutch playoff 3 pt shooters (and it was during the shortened 3 pt era so they were really deadly)

Sean also choked a bunch of FT's at the end of game 1

[CorrectCrusader]

because Admiral underperformed in the playoffs year after year
here are the statistics of both from 24 to 30 years (even without Hakeem's championship seasons)

Olajuwon
regular season:
23.6 pts 12.8 reb 2.6 ast 2.1 stl 3.8 blk 51.0 fg%
play-offs:
26.8 pts 13.2 reb 3.1 ast 1.8 stl 4.2 blk 54.6 fg%

Robinson
regular season:
25.6 pts 11.8 reb 3.1 ast 1.7 stl 3.6 blk 52.6 fg%
play-offs:
24.0 pts 11.8 reb 2.9 ast 1.3 stl 3.1 blk 48.8 fg%

Those playoff drops aren't that big. Embiid dropped what, 12 ppg in these playoffs? 1.6ppg drop isn't crazy.

[ambchang]

Spurs had prime Elliot and Rodman. Either of those teams gets blown off the floor by the 13-14 Spurs. The 1 v 1 matchup was the point. The larger discussion was about whether big men should develop post moves, such as the sky hook.

All I said was yes, post moves are a must IMO, look at 95 and then 03 Duncan wrecking prime Shaq.

Not trying to be smug, but wanted to know if you actually watched the series. The reason I asked is why you would bring up Rodman as he was some sort of positive. He was the primary reason the Spurs lost. He refused to guard anyone and left Horry wide open for shot after shot in the entire series so he could hang around the basket to pad his rebound stats.Horry shot freaking 42.5% from 3 that series when he shot 38% in the regular season and 40% overall in the playoffs. And that game winner he nailed in Game 1? He got it after Sean missed both FTs before that. Speaking of Sean, he shot one more shot than Avery Johnson, a largely non-shooter, in the entire series, you know why? Because the Rockets were leaving Johnson (and also Del Negro) wide open to double, sometimes triple Robinson throughout the entire series. The Spurs, on the other hand, went on record to say they won't double Hakeem. In fact, they were playing 4 on 5 on defence because former DPoY Dennis Rodman would rather leave his man open possession after possession to pad his rebounding stats, and he wasn't even that good at it when compared to his regular season numbers with 15 a game. Rodman had the ORtg of 99 in the series, by far the lowest of any starters. He sucked.

Speaking of Duncan in 03, thoughts on him shooting 42.5% in the series in 02 vs. the Lakers? it wasn't because he didn't have a post move, it's because the paint was crowded as the NY subway during rush hour when Parker, Daniels, Smith can't shoot. Big men needs perimeter to open up the paint for them to operate. Hakeem didn't have that until the mid 90s. Even the 99s Spurs team, known to be severely lacking offensively, had Mario Ellie and Jaren Jackson nailing outside shots. Robinson had Avery Johnson (cut twice as Hakeem's 3rd string point guard) and Vinny Del Negro (as bad a player as he was a coach) in the backcourt, sprinkled with Lloyd Daniels and Negele Knight. Robinson would kill to have Sleepy Floyd Daniels in his backcourt.

Oh, and Shaq scored 25.3ppg on 56% shooting in that series. Duncan was better, but we have Kobe Bryant to thank (along with Kevin Willis, and of course, David Robinson defending him).

[ambchang]

because Admiral underperformed in the playoffs year after year
here are the statistics of both from 24 to 30 years (even without Hakeem's championship seasons)

Olajuwon
regular season:
23.6 pts 12.8 reb 2.6 ast 2.1 stl 3.8 blk 51.0 fg%
play-offs:
26.8 pts 13.2 reb 3.1 ast 1.8 stl 4.2 blk 54.6 fg%

Robinson
regular season:
25.6 pts 11.8 reb 3.1 ast 1.7 stl 3.6 blk 52.6 fg%
play-offs:
24.0 pts 11.8 reb 2.9 ast 1.3 stl 3.1 blk 48.8 fg%

Bird:
Regular season:
24.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 49.6 FG%

Playoffs:
23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.5asp, 1.8 spg, 0.9bpg, 47.2 FG%

And that was heavily weighted for his prime when the Celtics were going deep in the playoffs. Was he a choker?

Defending the Robinson Spurs were easy. You just double Robinson and dare the other guys to shoot. That was the formula for every single year and everybody knows. In Robinson's rookie and sophomore seasons, he actually played better in the playoffs, you know why? He had Rod Strickland and Willie Anderson wasn't severely injured then to open up the lanes for him. he had Cummings doing the dirty work and boxing out for him. Every single opponent of the Spurs who beat them chose to limit Robinson with double and triple teams, leaving the "shooters" wide opened instead of staying home with the shooters and let Robinson get his share, because it was the easier way to beat the Spurs. Letting Spurs perimeter players shoot wide open jumpers (and sometimes 3s) yield less points than only single teaming or soft doubling Robinson.

[Knoxxx]

Sean also choked a bunch of FT's at the end of game 1

That was what I remembered the most and why I thought if Robinson could maintain equal footing with Hakeem the series was ours. That is not to blame Robinson for the loss, just one way we could have won it.

Sky hook: Yes - if he can hit 50%
Dream shake - probably overkill on the footwork side for Wemby I still consider that move traveling with my Spurs homer glasses.
Good solid all around post footwork and moves - YES
Duncan "signature" low 40% overrated bank shot - no thanks

Most important item bolded.

As far as Rodman, I don't recall him being that big a clown as he actually was, no argument there as our Big 3 at the time did not get the job done in 95.

[baseline bum]

Not trying to be smug, but wanted to know if you actually watched the series. The reason I asked is why you would bring up Rodman as he was some sort of positive. He was the primary reason the Spurs lost. He refused to guard anyone and left Horry wide open for shot after shot in the entire series so he could hang around the basket to pad his rebound stats.Horry shot freaking 42.5% from 3 that series when he shot 38% in the regular season and 40% overall in the playoffs. And that game winner he nailed in Game 1? He got it after Sean missed both FTs before that. Speaking of Sean, he shot one more shot than Avery Johnson, a largely non-shooter, in the entire series, you know why? Because the Rockets were leaving Johnson (and also Del Negro) wide open to double, sometimes triple Robinson throughout the entire series. The Spurs, on the other hand, went on record to say they won't double Hakeem. In fact, they were playing 4 on 5 on defence because former DPoY Dennis Rodman would rather leave his man open possession after possession to pad his rebounding stats, and he wasn't even that good at it when compared to his regular season numbers with 15 a game. Rodman had the ORtg of 99 in the series, by far the lowest of any starters. He sucked.


What a monster performance from Rodman in a must win Game 2.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199505240SAS.html

[rjv]

I love Robinson but he wasn’t as good as Hakeem. He was better than Akeem. But Hakeem was on a different level. But the 95 series doesn’t prove anything other than shitty coaching. Imagine not double teaming Hakeem. I mean seriously who would do such a stupid thing. Meanwhile the Rockets (Rudy T) correctly double and triple teamed Dave the whole series.

That being said, it would’ve been nice to see an actual team built around Robinson. Like imagine if he could kick it out to Horry, Cassell, Maxwell, Smith. Instead he had no shooters other than Elliot. Maybe Chuck Person but he was always a no factor in the playoffs. Vinny, AJ, Rodman couldn’t shoot worth shit.

I can’t compare Duncan to Robinson though since I don’t think even Duncan could’ve done much better than DRob during that early 90s era. Imagine having 6 different coaches in 5 years and your owner won’t pay for anybody good. McCombs would’ve let Manu and Tony walk

that playoff debacle is basically what got bob hill fired.

[ducks]

Kareem had great footwork which is the first thing to master when learning a proper hook shot...
Wemby has great footwork already and will only get better.

Kareem would keep defenders off balance by being able to back up and "place defenders" on his hip and in position to take his steps and the actual shot was automatic.

Kareem also could shoot the sky hook from 12-15 feet consistently.

Wemby is going to nail it pretty quickly - i think.
Better hope he nails