DWade or Harden?

[FkLA]

Not that farfetched of an opinion by Teague, imho.

1684215913631961088

[baseline bum]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.

[baseline bum]

This is like asking who is better, Dirk Nowitzki or Chris Webber?

[MultiTroll]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.

[MultiTroll]

Wade sure turned into a massive phaggot but had several good years as a 1.

[FkLA]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.

It's not that black and white though, imo.

That Wade title as a #1 was aided by a healthy dose of questionable FTs and more importantly a complete collapse/choke job from the Mavs. Up 2-0, up 13 going into the 4th Qtr of Game 3 and then the Mavs went into full blown Chokericks mode.

Harden nearly knocked off arguably the greatest team ever assembled. And he was by far the best player on those Rockets teams. Way bigger gap than the Wade/Shaq gap.

Does Wade ring as a #1 if he goes up against a team of Golden State's caliber? Does Harden ring if he doesn't come across a historic team?

[baseline bum]

That Wade title as a #1 was aided by a healthy dose of questionable FTs and more importantly a complete collapse/choke job from the Mavs. Up 2-0, up 13 going into the 4th Qtr of Game 3 and then the Mavs went into full blown Chokericks mode.


Harden got more foodstamps than Wade and still couldn't capitalize.



Harden nearly knocked off arguably the greatest team ever assembled. And he was by far the best player on those Rockets teams. Way bigger gap than the Wade/Shaq gap.


Nearly knocked off the Warriors? He shot 2-13 from the three point line in blowing Game 7 at home.



Does Wade ring as a #1 if he goes up against a team of Golden State's caliber? Does Harden ring if he doesn't come across a historic team?

No and no.

[timtonymanu]

Harden has been embarrassing in the twilight of his career. Toxic to his team and no one wants him anymore. Wade still landed in places because of his veteran prowess and championship experience. I think Harden being an all time great was out of the picture the moment he let 40 year old Manu block his shot in a crucial playoff game.

[Thread]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.

bum

[Thread]

...

[JamStone]

Not an easy answer for me. Wade is the better athlete, he has the more aesthetically pleasing game. He’s an NBA champion and considered by a lot of basketball people to be the 3rd best SG ever. Harden meanwhile has had unquestionable production despite unlikable parts of his game. And while Wade has rings, Harden has a League MVP trophy, something Wade does not. And while we can note Wade’s playoff successes and Harden’s playoff chokes and no-shows, I do think context is necessary.

Wade led teams without Shaq or LeBron were slightly better than average, .500ish, low playoff seed teams that didn’t do shit and usually lost in the first round. Harden led a Rockets team to a #2 seed and the WCF with a supporting cast of Dwight Howard whose game was already becoming a relic in the suddenly quickly evolving NBA at the time, along with guys like Donatas Motiejunas and Trevor Ariza as part of their core. Also led the Rockets to a #1 seed and 65 wins and another WCF appearance with career loser Chris Paul and Eric Gordon. Even without Dwight and CP3, Harden got the Rockets to 55 wins and got them out of the first round with Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson as his best teammates.

I might lean towards Wade because I like his game better. But I don’t think it’s an easy answer. Certainly not a slam dunk. Least not for me.

[Thread]

Harden has been embarrassing in the twilight of his career. Toxic to his team and no one wants him anymore. Wade still landed in places because of his veteran prowess and championship experience. I think Harden being an all time great was out of the picture the moment he let 40 year old Manu block his shot in a crucial playoff game.

...one never knows when a player will pull an ('10 Artest). I heartily believed and wanted that out of Westbrook with the Lakers, but it failed. I still feel that Westbrook has a '10 Artest in him. Perhaps Harden is finally going to see the light before it is extinguished and go whole hog.

[baseline bum]

Not an easy answer for me. Wade is the better athlete, he has the more aesthetically pleasing game. He’s an NBA champion and considered by a lot of basketball people to be the 3rd best SG ever. Harden meanwhile has had unquestionable production despite unlikable parts of his game. And while Wade has rings, Harden has a League MVP trophy, something Wade does not. And while we can note Wade’s playoff successes and Harden’s playoff chokes and no-shows, I do think context is necessary.

Wade led teams without Shaq or LeBron were slightly better than average, .500ish, low playoff seed teams that didn’t do shit and usually lost in the first round. Harden led a Rockets team to a #2 seed and the WCF with a supporting cast of Dwight Howard whose game was already becoming a relic in the suddenly quickly evolving NBA at the time, along with guys like Donatas Motiejunas and Trevor Ariza as part of their core. Also led the Rockets to a #1 seed and 65 wins and another WCF appearance with career loser Chris Paul and Eric Gordon. Even without Dwight and CP3, Harden got the Rockets to 55 wins and got them out of the first round with Eric Gordon and Ryan Anderson as his best teammates.

I might lean towards Wade because I like his game better. But I don’t think it’s an easy answer. Certainly not a slam dunk. Least not for me.

Wade is clearly a tier above Harden since he actually led his team to a title as a #1 option, and it's not like he was piloting a superteam. I can't hold Wade not taking his team to 50+ wins in the late 2000s against him either since we're not trying to argue he is in the Magic/Bird/LeBron tier and since the Heat were just hoarding capspace for LeBron once Shaq got old. Those W/L records Harden led the Rockets to from 15-19 were fools gold since they were based on a parade to the free throw line that stops happening in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles a lot more and quit rewarding his flopping so much.

[TD 21]

Wade, but it is closer than most will give it credit for because of RINGZ! and the former being far more liked than the latter.

Harden probably has Wade on peak and definitely on longevity. Of course, he's the worst big game playoff performer for an otherwise all timer of at least his generation.

[Obstructed_View]

Harden scores points.
Wade wins games.

[JamStone]

Wade’s win loss records

Regular season

With LeBron 177-71 (.714)
Without LeBron 434-372 (.538)

Playoffs

With LeBron 59-28 (.678)
Without LeBron 46-44 (.511)

Those seasons and post seasons without LeBron include those couple seasons with Shaq. Take those out, Wade is a career loser, regular seasons and playoffs. You’re giving Wade credit for one great playoff run where he ran through a terribly weak Eastern Conference, one he couldn’t have gotten out of especially against Detroit back then without Shaq, and what has universally been panned as a free throw red carpet NBA finals for him. He has the 2006 title run, four years of coattailing LeBron, and everything else he’s done, regular season and postseason, was leading mediocre Miami Heat teams as a poor man’s Tracy McGrady.

Wade wins games like Kevin Durant wins rings. Have to stack the deck in his favor for things to line up perfectly.

[Thread]

Harden scores points.
Wade wins games.

Obst

[Obstructed_View]

Wade’s win loss records

Regular season

With LeBron 177-71 (.714)
Without LeBron 434-372 (.538)

Playoffs

With LeBron 59-28 (.678)
Without LeBron 46-44 (.511)

Those seasons and post seasons without LeBron include those couple seasons with Shaq. Take those out, Wade is a career loser, regular seasons and playoffs. You’re giving Wade credit for one great playoff run where he ran through a terribly weak Eastern Conference, one he couldn’t have gotten out of especially against Detroit back then without Shaq, and what has universally been panned as a free throw red carpet NBA finals for him. He has the 2006 title run, four years of coattailing LeBron, and everything else he’s done, regular season and postseason, was leading mediocre Miami Heat teams as a poor man’s Tracy McGrady.

Wade wins games like Kevin Durant wins rings. Have to stack the deck in his favor for things to line up perfectly.
That's...a lot of work to make him look bad. Take away all the winning and every player is a career loser. :lol

[LkrFan]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.

Stern hated Cuban so much, he robbed Dirk of a ring. D-Whistle shot the most free throws in a 6-game Finals, in NBA history. Talk about a ref induced, manufactured 'superstar'.

More than Duncan
More than Shaq
More than Bird
More than Jordan

I don't like Harden, but he would have won with the likes of LeBron, Shaq, and Bosh too.

Harden won an MVP. Wade did not. If not for the loaded Dubs, Harden likely wins a title in Houston.

Harden flops, but skillwise he was betterPERIOD.

Harden > D-Whistle

[baseline bum]

Wade, but it is closer than most will give it credit for because of RINGZ! and the former being far more liked than the latter.

Harden probably has Wade on peak and definitely on longevity. Of course, he's the worst big game playoff performer for an otherwise all timer of at least his generation.

There is no way Harden has Wade on peak. Wade's 2006 ECF and 2006 Finals were unreal.

[baseline bum]

Stern hated Cuban so much, he robbed Dirk of a ring. D-Whistle shot the most free throws in a 6-game Finals, in NBA history. Talk about a ref induced, manufactured 'superstar'.

More than Duncan
More than Shaq
More than Bird
More than Jordan

I don't like Harden, but he would have won with the likes of LeBron, Shaq, and Bosh too.

Harden won an MVP. Wade did not. If not for the loaded Dubs, Harden likely wins a title in Houston.

Harden flops, but skillwise he was betterPERIOD.

Harden > D-Whistle

If not for the Dubs Harden loses to LeBron in the Finals in 2015 and 2018. LOL a Kobe Stan complaining about parades to the free throw line. LOL the MVP argument too. Yes tell me how Nash was so much better than Kobe and Iverson was an equivalent player to Kobe because of MVP count. Also ROFL Laker fan talking about anyone getting robbed of a title after 2002.

[lefty]

Ridiculous. Wade won a title as a #1 guy while Harden is an even worse choker than Karl Malone.
Wade was better but those zebras were fantastic sidekicks

[JamStone]

That's...a lot of work to make him look bad. Take away all the winning and every player is a career loser. :lol

Simple arithmetic is a lot of work?

I took out the four seasons he played with LeBron. That’s all. Four seasons out of 16 total seasons. I didn’t take out his seasons with Shaq. I didn’t try to manipulate numbers. I looked at his total games played. And subtracted the games played in the four seasons he played with LeBron. Is that really a lot of work to you? Because I gotta be honest, if it is, your professional ceiling is probably retail or data entry.

16 total seasons, four seasons with LeBron. Regular season some 800 games without LeBron, some 250 games played with LeBron. 90 playoff games with LeBron in four post seasons. And 87 playoff games in 13 post seasons without LeBron. It’s simple arithmetic.

It’s not a lot of work. And it’s all statistically factual. Without LeBron, in his career, he led a bunch of mediocre first round exit teams. That’s facts. 2006 was his singular career work of art, his Monet, his Picasso. And an outlier. The rest of his seasons and playoffs, he was Cowboy Willie drawing cartoon faces of tourists on the River Walk.

[FrostKing]

The massive difference on the Defensive end is tough to look past

Also Harden exploited a rule that allowed him to turn from All Star to MVP but then back down once the rule was changed

Teammates wise, considering Harden ended up on Brooklyn and now with Embiid, does he actually have the edge in players he played alongside?



Harden has actually had an impressive career for a guy that started off as a #3 and considering his physical limitations. But when comparing the two players it would be a special circumstance why I'd pick Harden over Wade when constructing a Dream starting 5. Wade is so much more versatile and has a number of less weaknesses.

[baseline bum]

You’re giving Wade credit for one great playoff run where he ran through a terribly weak Eastern Conference

I can't really consider the East weak in 05-06 when the Pistons were a 64 win team with four allstars who had just come one Robert Horry shot from being the two time defending champions against the two main powers of the west from that era. Seems like revisionist history to discount that team and thus Wade's accomplishment in leading the Heat past them.

[TD 21]

There is no way Harden has Wade on peak. Wade's 2006 ECF and 2006 Finals were unreal.

Series are small sample sizes though. When I say peak, typically it's a half decade or so give or take.

[Tyronn Lue]

I wouldn't compare Harden to Wade other than their ability to get to the charity stripe.

[JamStone]

I can't really consider the East weak in 05-06 when the Pistons were a 64 win team with four allstars who had just come one Robert Horry shot from being the two time defending champions against the two main powers of the west from that era. Seems like revisionist history to discount that team and thus Wade's accomplishment in leading the Heat past them.

Fair enough if you believe that. And the Pistons were very much a formidable team back then, obviously I recall. The Pistons were a challenge for the Heat. And Miami and Wade deserve credit for beating them. However, singling out one team does not refute the claim.

2005-06 Eastern Conference had 15 teams. Among them that season, three teams won 50 games or more that season, the aforementioned Heat and Pistons, and LeBron’s Cavs. Two other EC teams had winning records, the Kidd-Vince Nets and Gilbert-Jamison-Caron Wizards. 5 of 15 teams with records over .500. Should I switch adverbs from terribly to depressingly?

[baseline bum]

Fair enough if you believe that. And the Pistons were very much a formidable team back then, obviously I recall. The Pistons were a challenge for the Heat. And Miami and Wade deserve credit for beating them. However, singling out one team does not refute the claim.

2005-06 Eastern Conference had 15 teams. Among them that season, three teams won 50 games or more that season, the aforementioned Heat and Pistons, and LeBron’s Cavs. Two other EC teams had winning records, the Kidd-Vince Nets and Gilbert-Jamison-Caron Wizards. 5 of 15 teams with records over .500. Should I switch adverbs from terribly to depressingly?

Most title teams don't take out a 64 win team on the route to winning it all and they also beat a 49 win Nets team in the previous round. I don't see that as an easy route to the Finals at all. Yeah the Bulls team they faced in the first round sucked but that's kind of par for the course a lot of the time to have an easy first round matchup.

[baseline bum]

Series are small sample sizes though. When I say peak, typically it's a half decade or so give or take.

Harden has a large sample size in the playoffs and has been mostly unimpressive in them with some of the worst chokes we have ever seen. All the Spurs had to do to beat him in his prime was play the hands up don't shoot defense and they skullfucked him at home with Leonard in street clothes. Meanwhile you gotta give Wade some credit for having a big Game 7 to eliminate the Spurs in the 2013 Finals too. Gotta factor in that Wade has some injury problems in the mid to late 2000s too. But having a peak where you lead a team to a title in such impressive fashion, especially against the competition he faced in 06, is huge to me. Same reason I'd take Bill Walton over Patrick Ewing for example despite Walton only having two healthy seasons.

[Obstructed_View]

Simple arithmetic is a lot of work?

I took out the four seasons he played with LeBron. That’s all. Four seasons out of 16 total seasons. I didn’t take out his seasons with Shaq. I didn’t try to manipulate numbers. I looked at his total games played. And subtracted the games played in the four seasons he played with LeBron. Is that really a lot of work to you? Because I gotta be honest, if it is, your professional ceiling is probably retail or data entry.

16 total seasons, four seasons with LeBron. Regular season some 800 games without LeBron, some 250 games played with LeBron. 90 playoff games with LeBron in four post seasons. And 87 playoff games in 13 post seasons without LeBron. It’s simple arithmetic.

It’s not a lot of work. And it’s all statistically factual. Without LeBron, in his career, he led a bunch of mediocre first round exit teams. That’s facts. 2006 was his singular career work of art, his Monet, his Picasso. And an outlier. The rest of his seasons and playoffs, he was Cowboy Willie drawing cartoon faces of tourists on the River Walk.

You took out four seasons with Lebron, the results of which were still a winning record, and then said taking away the years with Shaq make him a loser. That is an extremely blatant case of twisting stats while ignoring what he did as a player who stepped up and carried the franchise that drafted him, without demanding trades, resting on defense or team hopping.

Nobody who is starting a franchise and wants to win takes Harden over Wade.

[Texas_Ranger]

this is as retarded as asking Curry or Westbrick?... I guess Teague is pretty retarded.

[djohn2oo8]

Teague is an idiot

[JamStone]

You took out four seasons with Lebron, the results of which were still a winning record, and then said taking away the years with Shaq make him a loser. That is an extremely blatant case of twisting stats while ignoring what he did as a player who stepped up and carried the franchise that drafted him, without demanding trades, resting on defense or team hopping.

It’s sort of strange, ironic on this board full of Spurs fans that for pretty much its entire existence hated, criticized, qualified, and caveated Kobe’s success because he played second banana to Shaq and “needed” MVPau to carry him to his 4th and 5th titles, and also destroyed Kevin Durant for joining the 73 win Warriors in order to get his rings BUT now find it twisting facts or stats by doing the same thing to Wade. Players you despise, it’s cool to qualify their success. A player you somewhat respect, all of a sudden it’s crazy to qualify the winning by separating when they coattailed or stacked the deck.

I think there’s merit to criticizing Kobe and Durant for their career successes being at least partly dependent on the situations they were in with other great players. I think it’s even fair to question them being able to win any rings at all had they not been in those situations and on those teams. And I think the very same thing about Wade without LeBron or Shaq. And if you’re being fair and unbiased, without LeBron and Shaq, Wade would likely (nothing is absolute in hypotheticals) have zero rings and be viewed more like Dominique or T-Mac than being a top 3-5 SG ever.

[JamStone]

Most title teams don't take out a 64 win team on the route to winning it all and they also beat a 49 win Nets team in the previous round. I don't see that as an easy route to the Finals at all. Yeah the Bulls team they faced in the first round sucked but that's kind of par for the course a lot of the time to have an easy first round matchup.


Again, fair enough. The East was weak. But the 2006 Miami Heat title run in the playoffs was not an “easy route” to the playoffs. I’ll stand that Wade and the Heat don’t get out of the East without Shaq. They likely don’t get out of the first round without him.

[ambchang]

It’s sort of strange, ironic on this board full of Spurs fans that for pretty much its entire existence hated, criticized, qualified, and caveated Kobe’s success because he played second banana to Shaq and “needed” MVPau to carry him to his 4th and 5th titles, and also destroyed Kevin Durant for joining the 73 win Warriors in order to get his rings BUT now find it twisting facts or stats by doing the same thing to Wade. Players you despise, it’s cool to qualify their success. A player you somewhat respect, all of a sudden it’s crazy to qualify the winning by separating when they coattailed or stacked the deck.

I think there’s merit to criticizing Kobe and Durant for their career successes being at least partly dependent on the situations they were in with other great players. I think it’s even fair to question them being able to win any rings at all had they not been in those situations and on those teams. And I think the very same thing about Wade without LeBron or Shaq. And if you’re being fair and unbiased, without LeBron and Shaq, Wade would likely (nothing is absolute in hypotheticals) have zero rings and be viewed more like Dominique or T-Mac than being a top 3-5 SG ever.

The issue is harden had Durant westbrook Chris Paul embiid and still didn’t get it done. His game is extremely ball dominant and when he doesn’t have the ball he doesn’t produce. Wade is like that to a degree but he still found success being 2nd banana to Lebron.
For the record I agree with you. It’s much closer than people make it out to be. I’d put them on the same tier but wade a little higher.

[TD 21]

Harden has a large sample size in the playoffs and has been mostly unimpressive in them with some of the worst chokes we have ever seen. All the Spurs had to do to beat him in his prime was play the hands up don't shoot defense and they skullfucked him at home with Leonard in street clothes. Meanwhile you gotta give Wade some credit for having a big Game 7 to eliminate the Spurs in the 2013 Finals too. Gotta factor in that Wade has some injury problems in the mid to late 2000s too. But having a peak where you lead a team to a title in such impressive fashion, especially against the competition he faced in 06, is huge to me. Same reason I'd take Bill Walton over Patrick Ewing for example despite Walton only having two healthy seasons.

I get it, but I still think Harden probably had the higher extended peak. He was about as good as it gets as an offensive load carrier in the regular season, which encompasses significantly more games obviously.

Of course, Wade getting his torn meniscus snipped instead of repaired in college cut his prime and career short, so maybe it'd have been different otherwise.

[baseline bum]

I get it, but I still think Harden probably had the higher extended peak. He was about as good as it gets as an offensive load carrier in the regular season, which encompasses significantly more games obviously.

Of course, Wade getting his torn meniscus snipped instead of repaired in college cut his prime and career short, so maybe it'd have been different otherwise.

All you gotta do is not send Harden to the free throw line and he folds. When I think Harden, this is the signature game that comes to mind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBF5VU5-oqI

In a long regular season when other players can be disinterested he used to put up video game numbers but ultimately you're judged by what you do in the playoffs and Harden has truly hideous performances in the biggest playoff games. Even as a supporting player in OKC he was awful in the 2012 Finals. Playoff failure is his legacy.

[Tyronn Lue]

It’s sort of strange, ironic on this board full of Spurs fans that for pretty much its entire existence hated, criticized, qualified, and caveated Kobe’s success because he played second banana to Shaq and “needed” MVPau to carry him to his 4th and 5th titles, and also destroyed Kevin Durant for joining the 73 win Warriors in order to get his rings BUT now find it twisting facts or stats by doing the same thing to Wade. Players you despise, it’s cool to qualify their success. A player you somewhat respect, all of a sudden it’s crazy to qualify the winning by separating when they coattailed or stacked the deck.

I think there’s merit to criticizing Kobe and Durant for their career successes being at least partly dependent on the situations they were in with other great players. I think it’s even fair to question them being able to win any rings at all had they not been in those situations and on those teams. And I think the very same thing about Wade without LeBron or Shaq. And if you’re being fair and unbiased, without LeBron and Shaq, Wade would likely (nothing is absolute in hypotheticals) have zero rings and be viewed more like Dominique or T-Mac than being a top 3-5 SG ever.
Pretty sure people here are more than willing to put Kobe and Wade together in the all time rankings.

[Chris Fall]

this is as retarded as asking Curry or Westbrick?... I guess Teague is pretty retarded.

I think it's more like asking Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups.

[lefty]

I wouldn't compare Harden to Wade other than their ability to get to the charity stripe.

[Arcadian]

Wade for his 2006 run alone.

[baseline bum]

Wade for his 2006 run alone.

Could also say Wade for Harden's 2017 run alone tbh

[JamStone]

The issue is harden had Durant westbrook Chris Paul embiid and still didn’t get it done. His game is extremely ball dominant and when he doesn’t have the ball he doesn’t produce. Wade is like that to a degree but he still found success being 2nd banana to Lebron.
For the record I agree with you. It’s much closer than people make it out to be. I’d put them on the same tier but wade a little higher.

For the record, in my first post, I said I’d lean Wade because I like his game better. I just feel it’s actually close and a tough decision. The points I bring up about Wade without LeBron and Shaq are not so much to disparage Wade. It’s my reason why I think it’s closer than some some have contended it is. I don’t think there’s some huge gulf between the two because Wade had one great title run with a FMVP. If that’s what makes it a no-brainer and it isn’t even close for some, then cool, people can feel that way. What Wade did the other have of his career without playing next to a top 10 player in the history of the game gives me a little more context to believe it’s close.




Pretty sure people here are more than willing to put Kobe and Wade together in the all time rankings.

Ok that’s cool. Don’t see how that has anything to do with what I said.

[Tyronn Lue]

For the record, in my first post, I said I’d lean Wade because I like his game better. I just feel it’s actually close and a tough decision. The points I bring up about Wade without LeBron and Shaq are not so much to disparage Wade. It’s my reason why I think it’s closer than some some have contended it is. I don’t think there’s some huge gulf between the two because Wade had one great title run with a FMVP. If that’s what makes it a no-brainer and it isn’t even close for some, then cool, people can feel that way. What Wade did the other have of his career without playing next to a top 10 player in the history of the game gives me a little more context to believe it’s close.





Ok that’s cool. Don’t see how that has anything to do with what I said.
The reason people here bag on Kobe is Kobestan puts him in the top 10. Riding Shaq's coattails snuffs that out. He can sit with Wade though. That's how it fits. Harden isn't in the same conversation. James has never been on that level despite specific teams allowing him the lion's share of touches.

[JamStone]

The reason people here bag on Kobe is Kobestan puts him in the top 10. Riding Shaq's coattails snuffs that out. He can sit with Wade though. That's how it fits. Harden isn't in the same conversation. James has never been on that level despite specific teams allowing him the lion's share of touches.

I’m a big Kobe fan but I don’t give a damn where anyone ranks him. I personally put him somewhere in the bottom of the top 10, maybe 8-10, but have zero issue if someone ranks him outside the top 10. You want to put him outside of the top 10, ok. You want to put him 12 or 25 or 58 or outside the top 100 completely, cool. Rankings are all subjective. What’s funny to me is that Spurs fans on these boards try to paint Kobe fans or Laker fans as delusional and unreasonable when it comes to Kobe. But Kobe fans aren’t the only ones that consider Kobe top 10. Hell, a lot of basketball heads have Kobe in the top 5 and in the discussion as goat. NBA players, past and present, even rivals of Kobe do that. Former coaches, NBA analysts, basketball nerds. From Charles to Jamal Crawford to Kevin Durant to the guy we’re talking about in this thread Dwyane Wade to JVG to Coach K, ranking Kobe in the top 10 isn’t a Kobe homer take. It’s not only Kobestans. It’s actually a consensus majority basketball take.

Gregg freaking Popovich the man himself said Kobe belongs with the handful of greats like Jordan, Magic and Bird. The best one though, the one Spurs fans should really love, is Bruce Bowen. Back in 2020 when ESPN did their rankings of the greatest NBA player of all time, and they ranked Kobe 9th, sandwiched between Tim Duncan at #8 and Shaq at #10. On air, in response, Bruce gave his top 5, ranking Kobe #2 and Tim #5. Bruce Bowen. Your Bruce Bowen. Not a Kobestan. The guy who guarded Kobe, battled Kobe. The guy who witnessed Tim Duncan daily in practice and in games. Kobe #2. Timmy #5.

Maybe, just maybe, Kobestans aren’t the ones that are overly biased, let alone delusional.

[ambchang]

Maybe marketing works.

[Tyronn Lue]

I’m a big Kobe fan but I don’t give a damn where anyone ranks him. I personally put him somewhere in the bottom of the top 10, maybe 8-10, but have zero issue if someone ranks him outside the top 10. You want to put him outside of the top 10, ok. You want to put him 12 or 25 or 58 or outside the top 100 completely, cool. Rankings are all subjective. What’s funny to me is that Spurs fans on these boards try to paint Kobe fans or Laker fans as delusional and unreasonable when it comes to Kobe. But Kobe fans aren’t the only ones that consider Kobe top 10. Hell, a lot of basketball heads have Kobe in the top 5 and in the discussion as goat. NBA players, past and present, even rivals of Kobe do that. Former coaches, NBA analysts, basketball nerds. From Charles to Jamal Crawford to Kevin Durant to the guy we’re talking about in this thread Dwyane Wade to JVG to Coach K, ranking Kobe in the top 10 isn’t a Kobe homer take. It’s not only Kobestans. It’s actually a consensus majority basketball take.

Gregg freaking Popovich the man himself said Kobe belongs with the handful of greats like Jordan, Magic and Bird. The best one though, the one Spurs fans should really love, is Bruce Bowen. Back in 2020 when ESPN did their rankings of the greatest NBA player of all time, and they ranked Kobe 9th, sandwiched between Tim Duncan at #8 and Shaq at #10. On air, in response, Bruce gave his top 5, ranking Kobe #2 and Tim #5. Bruce Bowen. Your Bruce Bowen. Not a Kobestan. The guy who guarded Kobe, battled Kobe. The guy who witnessed Tim Duncan daily in practice and in games. Kobe #2. Timmy #5.

Maybe, just maybe, Kobestans aren’t the ones that are overly biased, let alone delusional.
Returning to the point I was making, the reason people use caveats for greatness is 1st the claim of greatness. No one is saying Wade is all time great, if they were you'd see caveats regarding Shaq, Zo, Lebron, Bosh, Allen, etc. Harden isn't in the same conversation with Wade, mostly because James didn't play defense most of the time and laughably so. James' offense was on point, for sure, but the game happens at both ends. Wade has always been a good defender. Harden isn't respected for that reason.

[FrostKing]

Let's go JamStone

Haven't read yet but I love the commitment

[JamStone]

Returning to the point I was making, the reason people use caveats for greatness is 1st the claim of greatness. No one is saying Wade is all time great, if they were you'd see caveats regarding Shaq, Zo, Lebron, Bosh, Allen, etc. Harden isn't in the same conversation with Wade, mostly because James didn't play defense most of the time and laughably so. James' offense was on point, for sure, but the game happens at both ends. Wade has always been a good defender. Harden isn't respected for that reason.

But defense wasn’t even mentioned but once in this thread before your post. Most of the arguments initially were that Wade led a team to a title as the #1 while Harden has choked in the playoffs multiple times. You’re changing the argument, moving the goal posts. Defense is an easy and generic argument, and generally a convenient cop out when used. No one takes Magic out of the top 10 because he was a bad defender. No one qualifies Stephen Curry’s greatness with a “but his defense.” And we watched in real time the past couple years and this post season especially how the criticism of lack of defense of a great player is pretty much bullshit with the Joker-Embiid debates and Joker leading his team to a title with his “terrible defense.” And while Harden was never a good individual defender, particularly in space and in isolation, he did make up for it by being a good guard post defender when he switched on bigs and being a very good defensive rebounder especially for a guard. Doesn’t make him as good a defender as Wade. But it closes the gap quite a bit.

Right or wrong, the vast majority of greatest players rankings are based on offensive ability, individual offensive statistics, and the player’s ability to help his team win games, and ultimately rings. Not defense. You bring up defense like it’s some absolute decider. Let’s be real. It’s not. It’s offensive production. It’s winning.

The truth is if you line up the careers of Dwyane Wade and James Harden and you compare statistical production (both standard stats and deeper advanced stats) and team record over their respective careers, they’re extremely similar. Wade’s playoff team record is better, not surprisingly as my “he played with LeBron” argument highlighted. But the difference still isn’t lopsided. Wade has a FMVP, Harden a League MVP. But the rest of their careers are very similar.

A “but his defense” argument is bullshit imo.

[TD 21]

Maybe marketing works.

You might just call them brainwashed masses . . . I remember Raja Bell once speaking about how so much of the discourse is basically playing into what they know the league wants to the point where he'd always say Bryant when asked who was the most difficult for him to guard, but that it was actually Ginobili due to how unorthodox he is.

ESPN does it themselves. On air, Bryant (and Curry) are the most coddled/mythologized players and Duncan is largely ignored, but every time they update their GOAT rankings online, even they have Duncan ahead of Bryant.

[Tyronn Lue]

But defense wasn’t even mentioned but once in this thread before your post. Most of the arguments initially were that Wade led a team to a title as the #1 while Harden has choked in the playoffs multiple times. You’re changing the argument, moving the goal posts. Defense is an easy and generic argument, and generally a convenient cop out when used. No one takes Magic out of the top 10 because he was a bad defender. No one qualifies Stephen Curry’s greatness with a “but his defense.” And we watched in real time the past couple years and this post season especially how the criticism of lack of defense of a great player is pretty much bullshit with the Joker-Embiid debates and Joker leading his team to a title with his “terrible defense.” And while Harden was never a good individual defender, particularly in space and in isolation, he did make up for it by being a good guard post defender when he switched on bigs and being a very good defensive rebounder especially for a guard. Doesn’t make him as good a defender as Wade. But it closes the gap quite a bit.

Right or wrong, the vast majority of greatest players rankings are based on offensive ability, individual offensive statistics, and the player’s ability to help his team win games, and ultimately rings. Not defense. You bring up defense like it’s some absolute decider. Let’s be real. It’s not. It’s offensive production. It’s winning.

The truth is if you line up the careers of Dwyane Wade and James Harden and you compare statistical production (both standard stats and deeper advanced stats) and team record over their respective careers, they’re extremely similar. Wade’s playoff team record is better, not surprisingly as my “he played with LeBron” argument highlighted. But the difference still isn’t lopsided. Wade has a FMVP, Harden a League MVP. But the rest of their careers are very similar.

A “but his defense” argument is bullshit imo.
This in bold is enough to make the Wade vs Harden debate silly. It's not a Wade vs Kobe debate, you seem to want to make it so. In my previous response I was ignoring your tangents to get back to the Wade vs Harden question. I already told you why the Kobe tangent wasn't relevant. I have no idea why you're dragging so many other names in.

If your claim of offense is correct, Karl Malone>>>Tim Duncan.

[FkLA]

Teague is an idiot

Stop being such a female about Harden leaving Houston, dude.

I remember you claiming he should've won 3 MVPs in a row when he was still in Houston. He abandons y'all and now he's a lesser player. I hate what Kawhi did to the Spurs but I can't deny his greatness (when healthy).

[JamStone]

This in bold is enough to make the Wade vs Harden debate silly. It's not a Wade vs Kobe debate, you seem to want to make it so. In my previous response I was ignoring your tangents to get back to the Wade vs Harden question. I already told you why the Kobe tangent wasn't relevant. I have no idea why you're dragging so many other names in.

If your claim of offense is correct, Karl Malone>>>Tim Duncan.

That’s fine if you believe that. But it’s absolutely a debatable argument. My points have been to argue that one Finals MVP run does not simply decide it. Just as Cedric Maxwell’s Finals MVP cannot make an argument he was better than Dominique, or Andre Iguodala’s Finals MVP doesn’t make him better than Vince. Ignoring everything else and the context of Wade’s 2006 Finals run is short sighted and small picture. Wade doesn’t get out of the East without Shaq and even many Spurs fans on these boards have argued that there felt like a league manipulated and manufactured Finals outcome with all the free throws in the 2006 Finals.

I only brought up Kobe to show the hypocrisy in arguments on these boards. I wasn’t dragging him in for any other reason. It’s just drawing a parallel to make a point. Why are you talking about me going on tangents when your last post was all tangental to the discussion?

I have other examples but I’ll “drag” only one more. Chauncey Billups’ 2004 Finals run and I believe 6 straight deep conference final runs did NOT make him a better player than Jason Kidd. I’m a Pistons fan. Loved the Going to Work Pistons. Loved Chauncey. Jason Kidd was the better player. One Finals run as “the guy” is not enough to make a discussion like this “silly.” It ignores too much else.

As for the last part, Karl Malone was great. And for a long time before the likes of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, he was viewed as the goat PF. There are no caveats or asterisks to Duncan’s championship or MVPs the way I believe there are with Wade’s. If there were, then maybe there could be a debate. You’re not following the discussion properly if that’s how you’re trying to spin my arguments.

[Tyronn Lue]

That’s fine if you believe that. But it’s absolutely a debatable argument. My points have been to argue that one Finals MVP run does not simply decide it. Just as Cedric Maxwell’s Finals MVP cannot make an argument he was better than Dominique, or Andre Iguodala’s Finals MVP doesn’t make him better than Vince. Ignoring everything else and the context of Wade’s 2006 Finals run is short sighted and small picture. Wade doesn’t get out of the East without Shaq and even many Spurs fans on these boards have argued that there felt like a league manipulated and manufactured Finals outcome with all the free throws in the 2006 Finals.

I only brought up Kobe to show the hypocrisy in arguments on these boards. I wasn’t dragging him in for any other reason. It’s just drawing a parallel to make a point. Why are you talking about me going on tangents when your last post was all tangental to the discussion?

I have other examples but I’ll “drag” only one more. Chauncey Billups’ 2004 Finals run and I believe 6 straight deep conference final runs did NOT make him a better player than Jason Kidd. I’m a Pistons fan. Loved the Going to Work Pistons. Loved Chauncey. Jason Kidd was the better player. One Finals run as “the guy” is not enough to make a discussion like this “silly.” It ignores too much else.

As for the last part, Karl Malone was great. And for a long time before the likes of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett, he was viewed as the goat PF. There are no caveats or asterisks to Duncan’s championship or MVPs the way I believe there are with Wade’s. If there were, then maybe there could be a debate. You’re not following the discussion properly if that’s how you’re trying to spin my arguments.
I don't feel like you've offered anything to support Harden in the debate. Instead you've offered other irrelevant comparisons. Why is Harden as good as if not better than Wade?

[lefty]

When you think about it, even thought hey are both SG's, it's still comparing apples to oranges.

Wade was a score first athletic SG.

Harden is actually a combo guard. he can score and make plays for others.


- Defensively I'm guessing Wade was better; at least on the perimeter; TBH I don't remember how good he was but he has to be better than Harden in that department, Harden is actually pretty decent when defending bigger dudes in the post... so defense is a wash

- Titles: eeeeh... Wade has rings but 2006 was a Christmas gift from Stern, combined with the Mavs' multiple brain farts
and the other 2 titles Lebron was the leader; also, Wade started to decline rather quickly, around 2011-2012.... he didn't exactly have a long prime, and let's not forget he played for the Cavs and the Bulls as a TOSB

Offensively I think Harden is the better player; yes he is a flopper but that doesn't take anything way from his offensive skills
Wade didn't flop as much but he had an all time food stamps record in his first Finals
Defense is a wash



So who gives a shit tbh

[Texas_Ranger]

I think it's more like asking Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups.

yes, if Billups had 3 rings.

[resistanze]

For me Wade was clearly better. Wade's 2006 run even if you remove the ring, is better than anything Harden has done in his playoff career :lol

They have similar regular season accolades but Harden has an MVP and a higher scoring peak..but that's about it...
- Wade was lead scorer in the 2006 championship playoff run by over 10 ppg over Shaq ... he was clearly the #1
- Wade was the 1a option in the playoff run in LeBron's first year in Miami and wins FMVP if LeBron chokes even a little bit less
- Defensively...not even close
- Wade's stats in the playoffs stay pretty much the same (or a bit better) while Harden does the Malone thing and regresses in the playoffs..with some all-time horrific performances
- If having a declining Shaq and having Lebron leads to 3 rings for Wade...Having KD (twice), Westbrook, Kyrie, Chris Paul, and Embiid as teammates should lead to at least one ring? More than one finals appearance that happened when Harden was a sixth man?

[baseline bum]

For me Wade was clearly better. Wade's 2006 run even if you remove the ring, is better than anything Harden has done in his playoff career :lol

They have similar regular season accolades but Harden has an MVP and a higher scoring peak..but that's about it...
- Wade was lead scorer in the 2006 championship playoff run by over 10 ppg over Shaq ... he was clearly the #1
- Wade was the 1a option in the playoff run in LeBron's first year in Miami and wins FMVP if LeBron chokes even a little bit less
- Defensively...not even close
- Wade's stats in the playoffs stay pretty much the same (or a bit better) while Harden does the Malone thing and regresses in the playoffs..with some all-time horrific performances
- If having a declining Shaq and having Lebron leads to 3 rings for Wade...Having KD (twice), Westbrook, Kyrie, Chris Paul, and Embiid as teammates should lead to at least one ring? More than one finals appearance that happened when Harden was a sixth man?

Harden has the Malone act down 95%; namely, always completely shitting the bed in the elimination game. Can't give him 100% though since I have never seen his season end on an 8 point game in what was supposed to be his year to win a title like we saw with Warm Karl.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199905270POR.html

[resistanze]

Harden has the Malone act down 95%; namely, always completely shitting the bed in the elimination game. Can't give him 100% though since I have never seen his season end on an 8 point game in what was supposed to be his year to win a title like we saw with Warm Karl.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199905270POR.html

That pedo is the most overrated fagg0t in NBA history :lol

But I hope that 5% is for molesting children, because Harden's 2015 (2-11 FG, 14PTS, 12 TO) and 2017 (no Kawhi or Parker, 39 point blowout, 2-11FG, 10PTS, 6 TO) elimination games have to be on par.

[baseline bum]

That pedo is the most overrated fagg0t in NBA history :lol

But I hope that 5% is for molesting children, because Harden's 2015 (2-11 FG, 14PTS, 12 TO) and 2017 (no Kawhi or Parker, 39 point blowout, 2-11FG, 10PTS, 6 TO) elimination games have to be on par.

The main difference is 1999 was supposed to be Malone's year to ring. All you heard was he'd have two rings if there was no Jordan and this was his chance and instead he got bent over by Hall of Fame franchise bigman Brian Grant.

[Tyronn Lue]

When you think about it, even thought hey are both SG's, it's still comparing apples to oranges.

Wade was a score first athletic SG.

Harden is actually a combo guard. he can score and make plays for others.


- Defensively I'm guessing Wade was better; at least on the perimeter; TBH I don't remember how good he was but he has to be better than Harden in that department, Harden is actually pretty decent when defending bigger dudes in the post... so defense is a wash

- Titles: eeeeh... Wade has rings but 2006 was a Christmas gift from Stern, combined with the Mavs' multiple brain farts
and the other 2 titles Lebron was the leader; also, Wade started to decline rather quickly, around 2011-2012.... he didn't exactly have a long prime, and let's not forget he played for the Cavs and the Bulls as a TOSB

Offensively I think Harden is the better player; yes he is a flopper but that doesn't take anything way from his offensive skills
Wade didn't flop as much but he had an all time food stamps record in his first Finals
Defense is a wash



So who gives a shit tbh
You lost me at "defense is a wash" :lol

But yeah, no one gives a shit

[JamStone]

I don't feel like you've offered anything to support Harden in the debate. Instead you've offered other irrelevant comparisons. Why is Harden as good as if not better than Wade?

Similar career statistics, similar career win%. They’re comparable players. It’s not opinion. Statistically, they are very similar. It also helps to make almost an apples to apples comparison because they played a similar amount of games in both their regular season and post season careers, and their careers overlapped about a decade, so roughly the same era.

James Harden regular season career:
1000 games 651 wins, 349 losses (.651 win percentage)
24.7 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 7.0 APG
.442 FG, .363 3P, .609 TS%
24.4 PER, 158 WS, .218 WS/48, 6.7 BPM, 76 VORP

Dwyane Wade regular season career:
1054 games, 611 wins, 443 losses (.580 win percentage)
22.0 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
.480 FG, .293 3P, .549 TS%
23.5 PER, 120.7 WS, .162 WS/48, 5.0 BPM, 6.8 VORP

James Harden post season career:
160 games, 85 wins, 75 losses (.531 win percentage)
22.7 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG
.424 FG, .338 3P, .585 TS%
22.0 PER, 20.6 WS, .172 WS/48, 6.2 BPM, 11.9 VORP

Dwyane Wade post season career:
177 games, 105 wins, 72 losses (.593 win percentage)
22.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG
.474 FG, .338 3P, .549 TS%
22.4 PER, 21.6 WS, .155 WS/48, 5.3 BPM, 12.3 VORP

Again, my first post in this thread, I said I leaned Dwyane Wade. I’ve just been arguing that it’s close. Wade’s better defense didn’t give him a significant better plus-minus, regular season or post season, which suggests that the difference in defense didn’t impact winning as much as you might believe. Sure, Wade has the 2006 run. And again, my opinion is that Shaq and the free throws in the Finals de-values it some. Not discredit, not take away. Just de-value. And I don’t give Wade much credit for his 2012, 2013 sidekick titles. You’re free to do so. I’m not. So even when we take into consideration Harden’s playoff chokes, I personally don’t think there’s some huge gulf between them as players.

You’re free to disagree. But that’s my opinion. And there’s the “support” you asked for.

[Millennial_Messiah]

How many rings does Harden have?

Just because ZOMG HE SHOOTS THREEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZ doesn't make him better than Wade.

I'm not a fan of Wade's politics lately, but there's no denying his prime was better than anything James Harden had to offer. Harden arguably peaked in OKC in 2012.

[lefty]

The main difference is 1999 was supposed to be Malone's year to ring. All you heard was he'd have two rings if there was no Jordan and this was his chance and instead he got bent over by Hall of Fame franchise bigman Brian Grant.
Fuck Malone, but Dick Bavetta really fucked Utah super deep in game 6

Howard Eisley's 3 should have counted (it was before the 24 shot clock buzzer) and Ron Harper's running 2 shouldn't have (after the buzzer)

5 point swing

"but jOrDaN nEvEr pLaYeD a gAmE 7 in the fInAls"

:lol fuck Bavetta, worst ref ever

[ambchang]

& Bavetta is so bad even his own mother called him "Dick".

[baseline bum]

Fuck Malone, but Dick Bavetta really fucked Utah super deep in game 6

Howard Eisley's 3 should have counted (it was before the 24 shot clock buzzer) and Ron Harper's running 2 shouldn't have (after the buzzer)

5 point swing

"but jOrDaN nEvEr pLaYeD a gAmE 7 in the fInAls"

:lol fuck Bavetta, worst ref ever

Yeah the Eisley three being waived off was a horrible call. I could see the Harper shot going either way in the days before instant replay. Malone has always shown an incredible talent for stealing defeat from the jaws of victory though. Pretty embarrassing he couldn't even win that one game against a Bulls team with a 10% at best Scottie Pippen. Though not as embarrassing as getting wrecked by Brian Grant once Jordan was gone and the road to a title was supposedly cleared for him.

[lefty]

& Bavetta is so bad even his own mother called him "Dick".
:lol

[lefty]

Yeah the Eisley three being waived off was a horrible call. I could see the Harper shot going either way in the days before instant replay. Malone has always shown an incredible talent for stealing defeat from the jaws of victory though. Pretty embarrassing he couldn't even win that one game against a Bulls team with a 10% at best Scottie Pippen. Though not as embarrassing as getting wrecked by Brian Grant once Jordan was gone and the road to a title was supposedly cleared for him.
Yeah no excuse , with Pippen ailing he should have done better

In 1999 Jazz started to show their age, their window was 1988-1998 (the 88 Jazz seemed to be better than the 97-98 team)

Also the shortened 1999 season with its compact schedule wasn't good for old teams ike the Jazz and Rockets; the Blazers were youngers and fresher..
Knicks too except Ewing and LJ, Spree, Houston and Camby just outrun and outjumped other Eastern teams.
Shaq and Kobe under 30 but were coached by Rambis :lol

Sure Spurs were old, but their new franchise player wasn't.

[Tyronn Lue]

Similar career statistics, similar career win%. They’re comparable players. It’s not opinion. Statistically, they are very similar. It also helps to make almost an apples to apples comparison because they played a similar amount of games in both their regular season and post season careers, and their careers overlapped about a decade, so roughly the same era.

James Harden regular season career:
1000 games 651 wins, 349 losses (.651 win percentage)
24.7 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 7.0 APG
.442 FG, .363 3P, .609 TS%
24.4 PER, 158 WS, .218 WS/48, 6.7 BPM, 76 VORP

Dwyane Wade regular season career:
1054 games, 611 wins, 443 losses (.580 win percentage)
22.0 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
.480 FG, .293 3P, .549 TS%
23.5 PER, 120.7 WS, .162 WS/48, 5.0 BPM, 6.8 VORP

James Harden post season career:
160 games, 85 wins, 75 losses (.531 win percentage)
22.7 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 6.3 APG
.424 FG, .338 3P, .585 TS%
22.0 PER, 20.6 WS, .172 WS/48, 6.2 BPM, 11.9 VORP

Dwyane Wade post season career:
177 games, 105 wins, 72 losses (.593 win percentage)
22.3 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.9 APG
.474 FG, .338 3P, .549 TS%
22.4 PER, 21.6 WS, .155 WS/48, 5.3 BPM, 12.3 VORP

Again, my first post in this thread, I said I leaned Dwyane Wade. I’ve just been arguing that it’s close. Wade’s better defense didn’t give him a significant better plus-minus, regular season or post season, which suggests that the difference in defense didn’t impact winning as much as you might believe. Sure, Wade has the 2006 run. And again, my opinion is that Shaq and the free throws in the Finals de-values it some. Not discredit, not take away. Just de-value. And I don’t give Wade much credit for his 2012, 2013 sidekick titles. You’re free to do so. I’m not. So even when we take into consideration Harden’s playoff chokes, I personally don’t think there’s some huge gulf between them as players.

You’re free to disagree. But that’s my opinion. And there’s the “support” you asked for.
My original response was regarding your comment on how posters here held Kobe to a different standard, and it was to point out Kobe wasn't being compared to Harden or Wade. That remains true.

The comparison between Harden and Wade has to ignore Wade's playoffs in 2006, because he won the Finals MVP. Meanwhile Harden didn't do so well during his lone trip to the Finals. Remember, Wade has been to the Finals 5 times and won 3 of them. Shaq wasn't a monster during that 2006 Finals. Also the difference between Wade on defense and Harden on defense is much greater than their difference on offense. If you don't believe that you didn't watch the games. It's unfortunate for James that his legacy will be of someone who folded in the playoffs but excelled during otherwise meaningless regular season games. The eyeball test really indicts James.

[Tyronn Lue]

I'll say one more thing about the comparison, Jamstone then let it rest. You said James only had "career loser Chris Paul" but James is exactly the same, a career loser in terms of post season performances. You cannot discount Chris Paul as help because of his post season legacy, then say James' post season results are someone else's fault.

[JamStone]

I'll say one more thing about the comparison, Jamstone then let it rest.

I’ve never been accused of brevity. I realize and acknowledge I’m long-winded. Sorry, bear with me.

The point of those stats was to show why I think it’s close. It’s not just standard stats, but the catch-all advanced stats even non basketball geeks accept, particularly in the playoffs. Look at WS/48 and BPM specifically. They indicate that when Harden’s teams win, it’s more because of him than it is on Wade when his teams win. I think that’s important because of the perception of playoff Harden. It’s not like Harden is complete no show in the post season. In fact, overall, playoff Harden is nearly indistinguishable from playoff Wade statistically... statistically, I know, relax.

You misinterpreted the Kobe reference. I didn’t compare Kobe with Wade or Harden as players. I compared the narrative of qualifying Kobe’s championship success with qualifying Wade’s championship success. I was criticized for pointing out Wade without LeBron, but Spurs fan love qualifying Kobe getting carried by MVPau. It’s ironic and hypocritical. That’s why Kobe was brought up. Nothing to do with comparing the actual players.

I don’t argue that Harden isn't a career loser. Sure he is. I’m not blaming Harden’s failures on his teammates, just offering context. The point of calling CP3 a career loser is to compare Harden’s teammates to Wade’s. CP3 and Dwight Howard compared to Shaq and LeBron. Harden had two really good players, all stars, playing alongside him. When Wade won, he had two guys that go down as top 10 players in the history of the game that won titles without Wade. That’s why CP3 as a career loser is relevant.

I think Wade is probably the better player. And 2006 can absolutely be the deciding factor. I don’t think defense is because I don’t think Wade’s defense is the reason why Wade won more in the playoffs or won titles. I do think it’s close between the two. And I believe those who don’t think it’s close is because of personal bias against Harden.

[resistanze]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/15hb4yv/so_far_in_his_career_james_harden_has_made_more/

:lol

[baseline bum]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/15hb4yv/so_far_in_his_career_james_harden_has_made_more/

:lol

:rollin

Harden in the company of other NBA legends such as Dolph Schayes, Corey Maggette, and Donald Royal

[Mark Celibate]

The more I rewatch the 2006 Finals as the years go by, the less bitter I actually am about it. I actually don't think it was either a "rigging" nor do I think Wade was "brilliant". Honestly, it was more a combination of a bad matchup and the Chokericks choking (:lmao Chokericks get it??? :lmao). I rewatched Game 3 the other day, and Dallas had them on the ropes with the Terry/Dirk pick and roll late in the game and then for some stupid reason, they went "Jason Garrett" mode and just abandoned it for no reason, outsmarting themselves, and letting the Heat back into the game and series. If they just keep it simple, then it's likely a sweep and all is forgotten.

I also don't think Wade was completely handed free throw after free throw, but I don't think he was "great" either. He just exposed what Dallas was awful at at the time; keeping bigger, aggressive guards out of the paint. All Wade had to do was barrel through the lane and the midget Dallas backcourt would just let him through with their matador defense. Exact same thing that Baron Davis did a year later which is why the 2011 team made it a point to get bigger, stronger frontcourt guys like Kidd, Marion, Butler, and Stevenson. Knowing they were going to have to go through guys like Westbrook, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant, Harden, Wade, and Lebron to get a title

IMO, Dallas was extremely soft in the frontcourt in 2006/07 but there weren't a lot of quality NBA teams that were constructed to expose it. Most of the bigger guards/forwards that would give them trouble were isolated on sh!tty teams.

[lefty]

The more I rewatch the 2006 Finals as the years go by, .
:lol why would you do that to yourself?

[Mark Celibate]

:lol why would you do that to yourself?

meh, they got a ring in 2011 so I don't really care anymore. Considering Dallas isn't LA, Miami, or NY and they have a d!pstick owner I never even expected them to get one tbh imho

[Brazil]

:lol reading Jamstone I almost changed my mind about almost everything tbh... Harden or Wade is debatable and defense does not matter :lol

[FrostKing]

meh, they got a ring in 2011 so I don't really care anymore. Considering Dallas isn't LA, Miami, or NY and they have a d!pstick owner I never even expected them to get one tbh imho
No shame in losing to Wade & Shaq

I think that heartbreak hardened them for victory over the Heatles which is more memorable

[Tyronn Lue]

No shame in losing to Wade & Shaq

I think that heartbreak hardened them for victory over the Heatles which is more memorable
I think only Dirk and JT were from the 2006 squad, and they even had a different coach. No doubt JT shot extremely well and Dirk was Dirk, but the role players, Kidd and Chandler were difference makers also. They didn't have Avery Johnson so that's a plus.

[FrostKing]

I think only Dirk and JT were from the 2006 squad, and they even had a different coach. No doubt JT shot extremely well and Dirk was Dirk, but the role players, Kidd and Chandler were difference makers also. They didn't have Avery Johnson so that's a plus.
Good point. Dirk was possessed though. Signature play is him receiving the ball at the 3point line, pivoting and torching the Heat to the hoop for a slam. 2011 Dirk settles for the J

[Mark Celibate]

No shame in losing to Wade & Shaq

I think that heartbreak hardened them for victory over the Heatles which is more memorable


yeah who knows what would have happened. They probably hold onto Avery, Devin Harris, and Josh Howard for much longer and I doubt they go 67-15 the next season as they would have been somewhat coasting after the championship. Probably never get Rick Carlisle either, imo by 2011 or so they would have been in complete rebuild mode had they rang in 2006

[FkLA]

Tbf LeChoke returned the favor in 2011 for what the Chokericks did in 2006. The way he shrunk and forced Wade to do his best to literally carry him to a ring was embarrassing for a GOAT level player.

Two of the biggest chokejobs in NBA history, imho.

[Rummpd]

Wade never quit or failed to show up playoffs

[Thread]

Tbf LeChoke returned the favor in 2011 for what the Chokericks did in 2006. The way he shrunk and forced Wade to do his best to literally carry him to a ring was embarrassing for a GOAT level player.

Two of the biggest chokejobs in NBA history, imho.

That one down there in Florida was the topping on the cake, daddy. They was sellin' your shit, Fk.

[Thread]

Wade never quit or failed to show up playoffs

In many ways he was the Last of the Mohican's.

[FkLA]

That one down there in Florida was the topping on the cake, daddy. They was sellin' your shit, Fk.

It still hurts, Cubby.

Ten years later and I still can't watch that game or sequence. '14 eased some of the pain but it never got rid of it entirely.

[Thread]

It still hurts, Cubby.

Ten years later and I still can't watch that game or sequence. '14 eased some of the pain but it never got rid of it entirely.


Been 10 years. Hard to believe. Where does it go?

[FkLA]

What about this one? Most of the replies are saying AI. To me it's clearly Harden.


1719735764328518100

[baseline bum]

The more I rewatch the 2006 Finals as the years go by, the less bitter I actually am about it. I actually don't think it was either a "rigging" nor do I think Wade was "brilliant". Honestly, it was more a combination of a bad matchup and the Chokericks choking (:lmao Chokericks get it??? :lmao). I rewatched Game 3 the other day, and Dallas had them on the ropes with the Terry/Dirk pick and roll late in the game and then for some stupid reason, they went "Jason Garrett" mode and just abandoned it for no reason, outsmarting themselves, and letting the Heat back into the game and series. If they just keep it simple, then it's likely a sweep and all is forgotten.

I also don't think Wade was completely handed free throw after free throw, but I don't think he was "great" either. He just exposed what Dallas was awful at at the time; keeping bigger, aggressive guards out of the paint. All Wade had to do was barrel through the lane and the midget Dallas backcourt would just let him through with their matador defense. Exact same thing that Baron Davis did a year later which is why the 2011 team made it a point to get bigger, stronger frontcourt guys like Kidd, Marion, Butler, and Stevenson. Knowing they were going to have to go through guys like Westbrook, Carmelo, Kobe, Durant, Harden, Wade, and Lebron to get a title

IMO, Dallas was extremely soft in the frontcourt in 2006/07 but there weren't a lot of quality NBA teams that were constructed to expose it. Most of the bigger guards/forwards that would give them trouble were isolated on sh!tty teams.

Ugh same fucking midget backcourt that eviscerated the Spurs in 06

[DeadlyDynasty]

Can’t think of too many athletes who deserve a Dwayne Haskins death more than James Harden. Born loser, cunty, entitled personality, empty stats, took part in ruining the game, etc. So happy that jinx is on the Clippers

[lefty]

Ugh same fucking midget backcourt that eviscerated the Spurs in 06
fucking Devin Harris driving to the basket at will :lol

[FrostKing]

NBA is a paradise. Harden should be relegated to being bodied in some mid level European domestic league right now.

No other major league MLB, NHL, European football - can guy repeatedly force his way out of town by lowering his value thru poor shape, statements in the media or just not showing up to work. And yet next stop is still a contender. NBA is a mindfuck. I think in the 90s a Charlotte would have picked him up.

[lefty]

What about this one? Most of the replies are saying AI. To me it's clearly Harden.


1719735764328518100
2 overrated chuckers tbh

[lefty]

NBA is a paradise. Harden should be relegated to being bodied in some mid level European domestic league right now.

No other major league MLB, NHL, European football - can guy repeatedly force his way out of town by lowering his value thru poor shape, statements in the media or just not showing up to work. And yet next stop is still a contender. NBA is a mindfuck. I think in the 90s a Charlotte would have picked him up.
ngl, the drama in the NBA is entertaining
Meme worthy and some good parodies on YT lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

NBA is a paradise. Harden should be relegated to being bodied in some mid level European domestic league right now.

No other major league MLB, NHL, European football - can guy repeatedly force his way out of town by lowering his value thru poor shape, statements in the media or just not showing up to work. And yet next stop is still a contender. NBA is a mindfuck. I think in the 90s a Charlotte would have picked him up.

Absolutely. If you defend, support or are a fan of James Harden then you’re pretty much advertising that you’re a failure or a lazy spook

[Texas_Ranger]

What about this one? Most of the replies are saying AI. To me it's clearly Harden.


1719735764328518100

taking AI, but not by a lot. I think AI just performed better in big moments, compared to Harden.

[Mark Celibate]

NBA is a paradise. Harden should be relegated to being bodied in some mid level European domestic league right now.

No other major league MLB, NHL, European football - can guy repeatedly force his way out of town by lowering his value thru poor shape, statements in the media or just not showing up to work. And yet next stop is still a contender. NBA is a mindfuck. I think in the 90s a Charlotte would have picked him up.


Absolutely. If you defend, support or are a fan of James Harden then you’re pretty much advertising that you’re a failure or a lazy spook

I think it's two things. The first problem is that the NBA is so much more reliant on having a top superstar (since they can have the ball in their hands at anytime pretty much) than any other sport. That's why the strategy is effective. So whenever some guy decides to fly out to Vegas and 'twerk that thang' at Hakkasan instead of going to practice, all will be forgiven when he gets back onto the court since he could singlehandedly be the difference between being a true title contender or being a fringe playoff contender. Someone like Kawhi Leonard, who you knew was going to get picked up by a team like Toronto because they knew he was the missing piece and they'd do anything to get a title after coming up short year after year.

The second problem is that LeBron being the face of the league has made these antics so widespread. In sports like baseball and football, you could do the same thing to an extent if you're a top player but there's still something of an 'honor code' that is respected in those leagues. If you don't honor the code, in baseball you may get plunked or football they may hit you a little harder if you act like a d0uche. Lebron, however, has been the face of the NBA for so long and has influenced these guys to think they're oppressed victims who can whine their way out of any situation. Also normalized being 'cool' and 'chilling' with your rivals off the court as opposed to guys like MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird etc. Lebron and his f@ggot buddies Chris Paul, Carmelo, Anthony Davis, etc all 'ooga booga' in the club together when not on the court. Why is this important? When players pull off this fagg0try, the other lazy spooks that they're friends with will also whine and complain if owners start blackballing them out of the league. If no team picked up James Harden, it would set off a Category 5 chimpout throughout the league from Lebron and his buddies. The NBA in the 90s and 00s wouldn't stand up for it. Guys like MJ, Barkley, Kobe, etc would call out any lazy f*ck trying to force his way off a team.

Hopefully once Lebron/KD and the rest all retire this sh!t will go away and more and more European players will begin to influence the league's conduct

[ambchang]

Neither of them will help the team win a title, but AI is, shockingly, much less frustrating to root for. So AI.

[timtonymanu]

0-4 since joining the Clippers.

Faggiest generation of players by far (Lebron and all his butt buddies/KD)

[horseshue]

-19 at the half with hardon on the floor, against worst team in the nba. Only way clippers can win, is to bench this mofo. He is comepletely washed up and useless.

[timtonymanu]

Harden just being a cancer for another team. Love to see it. Fuck that fatass for jumping ship and trying to deflect blame.

Meanwhile Maxey looks like a better player than he ever was in Philly.

[mudyez]

-28 with Harden... +24 without him.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Agree. Manu aborted Harden's legacy.

[Obstructed_View]

The Los Angeles Cancer. :lmao

[ambchang]

Harden has always been empty calories and now that he doesn’t have much stats to put up he’s dragging teams down. M

The most egregious example of :lol todays stats manufactured superstar.

[baseline bum]

Lebron, however, has been the face of the NBA for so long and has influenced these guys to think they're oppressed victims who can whine their way out of any situation

Meh LeBron never forced his way out of anywhere and always played out his contract before leaving in free agency. Don't see how any of this crap that started with Kawhi Leonard is his fault.

EDIT: I take it back, he deserves some blame for encouraging Davis to pull this crap with New Orleans

[baseline bum]

-28 with Harden... +24 without him.

:rollin

What a piece of shit

[BillMc]

Harden scores points. He also dominates the ball, plays horrendous defense, doesn't move at all without the ball, chokes in big games, throws teammates under the bus and quits on teams.

Wouldn't want in any other role that when he was young and OKC was using him off the bench. Lousy team leader and #1.

[Obstructed_View]

Meh LeBron never forced his way out of anywhere and always played out his contract before leaving in free agency. Don't see how any of this crap that started with Kawhi Leonard is his fault.

EDIT: I take it back, he deserves some blame for encouraging Davis to pull this crap with New Orleans

Lebron is the king of tampering.

[lefty]

:rollin

What a piece of shit
:lol and the Sixers are now 1st in the East :lol


https://media.tenor.com/ZdHm6jsxETMAAAAd/so-the-system-kind-of-broke-down-joey-tribbiani.gif