Jrue holiday?

[tonski117]

Can the spurs acquire him? Or he’s old for the spurs timeline?

[spurraider21]

he's the same age as Lillard

[spurs10]

Blazers will want a heap for him after today.

[rjv]

nyet

[Mr. Body]

Thirty-three years old. Cost good assets to acquire. Not on the timeline.

[TekXX]

The Spurs have settled on another tank, he's not on the "timeline".

[BacktoBasics]

Not only would he be pissed if we acquire him but we’d be stupid to give up assets. You move assets for vets once you’ve put yourself into playoff position.

[k830713]

Holiday - Osman, Birch, Bullock, Graham + 2picks

[spurraider21]

Holiday - Osman, Birch, Bullock, Graham + 2picks
ah yes. the old "we can receive a good player for Bonner, Blair, Neal" trade theories

[CorrectCrusader]

He's not good offensively, great defensively. Old.
Not happening

[spurraider21]

He's not good offensively, great defensively. Old.
Not happening
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg?1315930535

[CorrectCrusader]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg?1315930535

Watch him in the playoffs. Against playoff level defense he just doesn't have it

[baseline bum]

ah yes. the old "we can receive a good player for Bonner, Blair, Neal" trade theories

Not interested in giving up Neal tbh. De Culo or James Anderson can be the sweetener in the deal.

[FutureMan]

Philly just makes too much sense. Something like:

PHI: Holiday & Covington
LAC: Harden & Tucker
POR: Powell, Morris, & draft compensation

Sixers fans still love Holiday and Covington. Harden gets to pretend to try to win a championship with his other pretender friend. Powell heads back to Portland and the Clippers get to move on from Morris which is what they tried to do with the Brogdon trade.

[Dex]

Rumor has it that Portland will be shopping him for two firsts, and even with the Spurs drove of picks he ain't worth it. Rather see what all of our young guards can do instead of creating a logjam there

[Chinook]

I'd be down for Holiday. The team needs a vet leader to keep the non-Wemby core from tipping. Getting an unselfish, defense-first guy at a position of need who has experience playing with both a young superstar big and a freak forward feels like a slam dunk. Yes, the price tag matters. Jrue supposedly wants to retire when his contract is up, and it's extremely unlikely the Spurs will be in a position to win anything by time that happens. So this is specifically not a "win-now" move. But if we're talking about shit like the Charlotte pick and the worst 2025 pick, I would be quite interested, much more so than in someone like Herro.

[SpursBills]

Agree with this. I think Spurs actually try and make a play for Holiday and would depend on price. Historically, the organization has valued a winning culture over maximizing asset collection. Jrue represents the perfect archetype of point guard for this team - veteran, defense first, shoots the 3, championship experience, true point guard and excellent distributor. The organization may feel that bringing Wemby into a winning culture is more important than the cost of multiple draft picks and the opportunity cost of getting a better draft pick down the line. He will be way too old by the time Wemby is ready to compete, but the team may feel that he brings intangible value in terms of maximizing Wemby's development in his early years.

[SPURt]

No spanks

[MultiTroll]

Not motivated.
After he got his Chip and then the World Commercialism Games Gold seems like he's just cashed a check with Milwaukee.

Pass.

[sfernald]

I’ve heard that he came back on the idea he would retire at the end of this contract. Next feb he could sign one more maybe four year contract if the spurs org and team philosophy inspire him and he’ll give five great years helping Wemby get off to the right start to his career. The right vet point guard can really make a difference.. if the price is right, I say do it!!

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

i'll take him

trust wright to hammer out a good deal

[Mr. Body]

Rumor has it that Portland will be shopping him for two firsts, and even with the Spurs drove of picks he ain't worth it. Rather see what all of our young guards can do instead of creating a logjam there

Portland ain't gonna get two FRPs for Jrue. I just don't see it. There's an extremely small number of teams that could use him, have a FRP to spare (much less two), and can make up $35 million in contracts to get him. Boston can't, for example.

[spurraider21]

Not interested in giving up Neal tbh. De Culo or James Anderson can be the sweetener in the deal.
James Anderson is untouchable

[spurraider21]

I'd be down for Holiday. The team needs a vet leader to keep the non-Wemby core from tipping. Getting an unselfish, defense-first guy at a position of need who has experience playing with both a young superstar big and a freak forward feels like a slam dunk. Yes, the price tag matters. Jrue supposedly wants to retire when his contract is up, and it's extremely unlikely the Spurs will be in a position to win anything by time that happens. So this is specifically not a "win-now" move. But if we're talking about shit like the Charlotte pick and the worst 2025 pick, I would be quite interested, much more so than in someone like Herro.
As much as i love Holiday as a player and see the easy need/fit, dumping even bad firsts for a player we can basically guarantee will never win with us seems like bad practice

I’d rather toss a couple of SRPs for Lowry than FRPs for Holiday

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Watch him in the playoffs. Against playoff level defense he just doesn't have it
First you need to get to the playoffs

[Dejounte]

Trading for any player isn’t all about the direct win/loss outcome that comes from having said player. Sometimes it’s about the impact they have for years to come for the young core. Jrue is one of the best type of players to pave the way for that and is a perfect on court commander. What the Spurs pay here is worth it if they go this route.

It’s like buying a Toyota Corolla now to get from point A to C instead of driving a shitty car that gets you from A to C. It’s not about the fun (in this case, the wins) that you get driving from A to C, the point is that you reliably get to destination C with a car that runs well (Jrue).

Wemby said in an interview how he would love to do stuff that helps the community. What better way to learn how to do that than to learn from someone like Jrue, who is known for doing so much community service? Jrue will keep Wemby grounded and help shape him to be a caring adult. We want Wemby to not only become one of the best Spurs players ever but if he had Kareem-level impact after his career is over too? That would be special.

[rankingtear]

The problem is bidding against teams with more to gain. You lose that trade every time.

[Bruno]

Spurs are going through a full rebuilding process and there is a blueprint for that with three stages:

Stage 1: The tear down.
The team is trading away its good vets for prospects, draft picks and cap space.

Stage 2: Building a young core.
The team is adding, mostly through the draft and sometimes with some tanking, a bunch of good young players to build the team around.

Stage 3: Being competitive.
The team is adding through trades and free agency players to fill voids on the team.

That's the theory. In reality, these stages can overlap and have a various length.


Spurs have finished the stage 1 with the Pöltl trade and are fully in stage 2. To me their young core is basically 2 good but not great players (Vassell and Johnson) and 2 promising prospects (Sochan and Wembanyama). Spurs still need to expand their core of young players before starting the third stage. They're just too early in the rebuilding process to trade for Jrue Holiday.

[tbdog]

Just want to say, this is so good for the NBA, for a small market team still going all in and prying Lillard from forcing himself to a big market team.

[JeffDuncan]

…
They're just too early in the rebuilding process to trade for Jrue Holiday.


It’s actually too late to trade for Jrue. The Spurs needed him in 2018.

Trying to get him now is patently absurd, of course, but it’s the offseason and people need something to talk about.

[Dejounte]

The myth about rebuild processes having to revolve around an all-youth team is a myth that needs to be busted. Teams that went through that process successfully always had key vets in their line-up. I argue that it wasn’t until vets joined those teams was the point where true development finally started. Those years before an old ass Chris Paul joined the Suns were wasted years and that young core learned nothing.

[Chinook]

As much as i love Holiday as a player and see the easy need/fit, dumping even bad firsts for a player we can basically guarantee will never win with us seems like bad practice

I’d rather toss a couple of SRPs for Lowry than FRPs for Holiday

The Spurs may literally end up cutting the guys taken with those firsts anyway. We keep assuming they're going to consolidate those picks, but it very rarely works out that way. The gap between Holiday and Lowry is gigantic. I wouldn't pay for Lowry at all if I were the Spurs. At best, he'd've had utility on the team when compared to the cap space and expirings it took to get him.

As I said, I don't think the team is going to be a contender over the next two years. But I do think they can be a playoff team in that span. Guys like Keldon and Vassell need to figure out how to be actual good players and probably shouldn't be spending these years as the "established vets" of the rotation. In all honesty, I would've preferred if this opportunity were around next summer after the Spurs got one more high pick. But it's here now, and there probably isn't going to be a better combination of traits available next summer. Unless PATFO thinks the Spurs need to tank another year, they should try to build a real support system around Wemby. They shouldn't instantly go all-in like NOLA seems to keep trying to do every time they win the lottery. But they should absolutely give the guys on their roster the best chance to showcase their talent as they look to build a core. Getting an elite role-playing PG does that.

[Chinook]

Spurs are going through a full rebuilding process and there is a blueprint for that with three stages:

Stage 1: The tear down.
The team is trading away its good vets for prospects, draft picks and cap space.

Stage 2: Building a young core.
The team is adding, mostly through the draft and sometimes with some tanking, a bunch of good young players to build the team around.

Stage 3: Being competitive.
The team is adding through trades and free agency players to fill voids on the team.

That's the theory. In reality, these stages can overlap and have a various length.


Spurs have finished the stage 1 with the Pöltl trade and are fully in stage 2. To me their young core is basically 2 good but not great players (Vassell and Johnson) and 2 promising prospects (Sochan and Wembanyama). Spurs still need to expand their core of young players before starting the third stage. They're just too early in the rebuilding process to trade for Jrue Holiday.

I can't say I agree with this. Well, I can agree that rebuilding often involves tearing down and then hopefully building back up. But I don't think one will find many examples of teams that have followed this path to success. Instead, it feels like a team will tear down, sit as a bad team as long as it takes to get a star through the draft, free agency or a trade and then try to capitalize on that star by aggressively adding talent. We don't know for sure if the Spurs have their star or even multiple stars yet and in general if what kind of talent they have. That's why getting players to help determine that and who can help refine whatever talent they do have is a worthwhile goal. Trade assets are not money -- they don't just sit in a bank and keep gaining value. The Spurs HAVE to use the six picks they're looking at somehow (with the exception of the Chicago pick). They won't necessarily be any closer to having their young core by then. In fact, if the roster is clogged with even more meh first-rounders they might be further from that goal. Holiday wouldn't make the Spurs contend, but he could improve guys who might be on the team when it contends.

[Seventyniner]

The myth about rebuild processes having to revolve around an all-youth team is a myth that needs to be busted. Teams that went through that process successfully always had key vets in their line-up. I argue that it wasn’t until vets joined those teams was the point where true development finally started. Those years before an old ass Chris Paul joined the Suns were wasted years and that young core learned nothing.

Do you think Holiday could be to the Spurs what CP3 was to the Thunder? That's the closest parallel I can think of.

[exstatic]

The myth about rebuild processes having to revolve around an all-youth team is a myth that needs to be busted. Teams that went through that process successfully always had key vets in their line-up. I argue that it wasn’t until vets joined those teams was the point where true development finally started. Those years before an old ass Chris Paul joined the Suns were wasted years and that young core learned nothing.

The Suns went 8-0 in the bubble the year before CP0 arrived, and missed the playoffs by an eyelash. They did learn and advance over a period of years, going from 4 years of winning less than 30% of their games to winning 46% that year before Paul arrived. He led them to the Finals, but I think they would have made the playoffs, regardless.

[rascal]

The Spurs aren't making any major moves. They already said they're going into the year with the same core team and Wemby.

[Leetonidas]

Holiday would be a great vet to add to the roster. But he costs too much and the assets we'd need to give up aren't worth it imo. I'm sure he'd be a professional no matter what but I highly doubt he wants to play babysitter/mentor to a young team at this point in his career

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, the Spurs aren't going for this guy. Team already has vets, etc.

The question is whether they can jump into any trade Portland makes. They do have expirings. I'm not sure I see a trade where they can get in, though.

[MultiTroll]

Wemby said in an interview how he would love to do stuff that helps the community. What better way to learn how to do that than to learn from someone like Jrue, who is known for doing so much community service? Jrue will keep Wemby grounded and help shape him to be a caring adult.
And no one is available to "mentor" Wemby how to do community service other then a 36 million dollar per year negro?

Quite sure since the Patty coffee club and with CIA Pops rep for being generous that a "mentor" for community service can be found.

And Kream needs to take care of his own knife stabbing kid 1st.

[couchman]

The question for the Spurs FO is this:
"Do we already have the core of future stars on the team to compete for a title?"

If the answer is YES:
All of our resources, including draft capital, become dedicated to giving those players the help they need to develop, and then win.
That means we don't need 5-6 FRPs in the next two drafts and instead we need some veteran leadership that will help these kids develop and will help them learn how to win games.
That means we start to trade away some of our draft capital to get that veteran help. Guys like Jrue.

If the answer is MAYBE:
You keep your powder dry for another year to "see what we have."
This seems to be where the Spurs are.
We don't make major moves and hope that we get enough data in this upcoming season to make decisions going forward.

If the answer to the question is NO:
We keep all of our draft capital and just churn like OKC has done until the answer becomes YES.

What does YES look like?
To say definitively that we have a future core on the roster that can win titles then we need:
Wemby to look like a reliable future superstar
TWO of Sochan, Devin, Keldon, or Branham to show that they can become borderline All-star level players (or better)

[BacktoBasics]

And no one is available to "mentor" Wemby how to do community service other then a 36 million dollar per year negro?

Quite sure since the Patty coffee club and with CIA Pops rep for being generous that a "mentor" for community service can be found.

And Kream needs to take care of his own knife stabbing kid 1st.

Why are you such a piece of shit?

Who hurt you?

I want them to do it again.

[MultiTroll]

:lol The shtistain poster is back. ^

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Rumor has it that Portland will be shopping him for two firsts, and even with the Spurs drove of picks he ain't worth it. Rather see what all of our young guards can do instead of creating a logjam there

Holiday has always been one of my favorite players. If the Spurs were further along he'd be great in that Mario Elie sort of veteran role. Unfortunately I think the Spurs need a couple years to be ready for that sort of role player.

I'm super curious to see how well the Spurs play this year. He's not worth giving up two firsts if the team isn't going to make any noise for a few years.

[spurraider21]

The Spurs may literally end up cutting the guys taken with those firsts anyway. We keep assuming they're going to consolidate those picks, but it very rarely works out that way.
whether they're consolidated or not, or they're thrown away for not, those still represent valuable opportunities to build out a roster that allows you to timely pounce and add the big players via trade/FA to really launch the team. they certainly wont all hit. but trading 2 firsts either costs you one of those opportunities, or costs you some of the ammunition you'd need to make one of those timely moves


The gap between Holiday and Lowry is gigantic. I wouldn't pay for Lowry at all if I were the Spurs. At best, he'd've had utility on the team when compared to the cap space and expirings it took to get him.
i basically agree with all this. the gap between them is huge. but thats also reflected by their gap in cost. i dont think we should have to pay for lowry either, and while i dont think the scenario to acquire him for free exists anymore (if they pulled of the lillard deal, i think the avenue was there), im saying i would rather "overpay" and toss low value SRP or two than pay market rate for Holiday given where the team is


As I said, I don't think the team is going to be a contender over the next two years. But I do think they can be a playoff team in that span. Guys like Keldon and Vassell need to figure out how to be actual good players and probably shouldn't be spending these years as the "established vets" of the rotation.
this is fair tbh. dont want a rudderless ship. im just juggling it against the opportunity cost


In all honesty, I would've preferred if this opportunity were around next summer after the Spurs got one more high pick. But it's here now, and there probably isn't going to be a better combination of traits available next summer. Unless PATFO thinks the Spurs need to tank another year, they should try to build a real support system around Wemby. They shouldn't instantly go all-in like NOLA seems to keep trying to do every time they win the lottery. But they should absolutely give the guys on their roster the best chance to showcase their talent as they look to build a core. Getting an elite role-playing PG does that.
it does appear they're going to "tank" again, depending on one's definition of tank. and to be fair, we do still have a lot of unanswered questions about what the roster needs going forward. we know we dont have a PG. we think Vassell should be able to be a starting 2/3, but he has to prove it still. i dont think keldon is a starter, but he wont be ask to carry the load this year to the same extent as last year, so he can be evaluated now under different circumstances. zollins may leave. we dont really know if branham/wesley can be rotation nba players. sochan still has a lot of question marks as to what his final product looks like.

basically the entire 15 man roster is a question mark. point being, they might not need to consolidate their FRPs... its plausible that we may actually need to use them to keep swinging until we find a few core players to surround around wemby before getting into aggressive mode

[Extra Stout]

The Spurs aren’t going to trade for Jrue Holiday for the same reason that Portland isn’t going to keep him. He is a valuable piece on a contender. On a rebuilding team draft capital is worth more. So Portland, which is rebuilding, is going to trade him to a contender for draft capital.

This is a discussion forum, though. The Spurs have made it clear 100,000 different ways that they don’t intend aggressively to improve the roster around Wemby, but rather to stand pat. Standing pat does not provoke a lot of discussion. That is why for a while there were threads with no responses for 2 weeks lingering on the first page. There wasn’t much to talk about. But speculation about things that aren’t going to happen at least gives posters something to talk about.

Other things that get discussed when there isn’t much to talk about:
What constitutes tanking?
Is Wemby’s dye job temporary?
Who are the draft prospects for 9 months from now?
Is the wood trim in the new practice facility good or bad?

Only the San Antonio Spurs could make the acquisition of Victor Wembanyama so anticlimactic that their own fans are bored.

[poopbox]

I'd be down for Holiday. The team needs a vet leader to keep the non-Wemby core from tipping. Getting an unselfish, defense-first guy at a position of need who has experience playing with both a young superstar big and a freak forward feels like a slam dunk. Yes, the price tag matters. Jrue supposedly wants to retire when his contract is up, and it's extremely unlikely the Spurs will be in a position to win anything by time that happens. So this is specifically not a "win-now" move. But if we're talking about shit like the Charlotte pick and the worst 2025 pick, I would be quite interested, much more so than in someone like Herro.

Holiday definitely won't be this guy since I doubt he is looking to close out his career on a team probably headed for another top 5 pick. I bet if he got asked what 20 teams he would want to play for the Spurs wouldn't be on the list.

People think every "veteran player" wants to "teach" young guys something. Most don't. Most have made the money they wanted and now probably want to ring chase.

[Chinook]

whether they're consolidated or not, or they're thrown away for not, those still represent valuable opportunities to build out a roster that allows you to timely pounce and add the big players via trade/FA to really launch the team. they certainly wont all hit. but trading 2 firsts either costs you one of those opportunities, or costs you some of the ammunition you'd need to make one of those timely moves

I don't think we're disagreeing that much, honestly. I just think that using two of the shittier picks is them enjoying an opportunity that most other teams can't. Most team's aren't going to have multiple firsts they can trade with it not being a big deal. For most other teams, it's a real future sacrifice. For the Spurs, we're talking completely moveable assets. For the reasons I've said, I think it could be worth the gamble. Even the shitty firsts have real value, as you said, but they don't have that value forever. They passed on potential opportunities to convert some of those picks into more immediate opportunities during the draft. Even after this, they'll have more opportunities. I just hope they don't "hold" their ways into pissing away those assets. That feels way more likely than not at this point though.


it does appear they're going to "tank" again, depending on one's definition of tank. and to be fair, we do still have a lot of unanswered questions about what the roster needs going forward. we know we dont have a PG. we think Vassell should be able to be a starting 2/3, but he has to prove it still. i dont think keldon is a starter, but he wont be ask to carry the load this year to the same extent as last year, so he can be evaluated now under different circumstances. zollins may leave. we dont really know if branham/wesley can be rotation nba players. sochan still has a lot of question marks as to what his final product looks like.

basically the entire 15 man roster is a question mark. point being, they might not need to consolidate their FRPs... its plausible that we may actually need to use them to keep swinging until we find a few core players to surround around wemby before getting into aggressive mode

I don't see "seeing what we have" to mean that they have to let the players run around like headless chickens. Most players are not stars or have rotations built around their leadership or skill. In theory it's nice to see if Vassell or Keldon can become stable players with a higher option in the lineup. But what are we actually hoping for here? Do we wish that Vassell becomes a ball-dominant scorer or that Keldon gets a good iso game? Are we hoping that Tre Jones learns to score to the point that he's a decent PG? Personally, I'm hoping that they can become decent role-players who can fit in with stars when those develop or are brought in.

I'm sort of annoyed at how much the Spurs have neglected drafting or developing role-players since 2016. At some point they need to stop playing with the idea that X or Y can be a lead play-maker and instead ask "Can they shoot? Can they defend? Do they know how to do little things on the court?" That means you have to be willing to ramp up the competition guys like Branham, Wesley and the like get. No one who can't beat out Tre Jones is good enough to ignore getting an All-Star and champion player. The scenario that you bring up, where most of the team flops to justify bringing in six to ten new players over the next two drafts is a horror show, and I simply cannot imagine that many players being that irredeemably bad. That would be bad enough to cost basically the entire front office and staff their jobs. The team should absolutely be looking into upgrading their core, but that means they need to actually upgrade it when they have the chance and not just add lotto tickets to it.

Even in the pre-contending phase, they shouldn't just be looking at the draft to gain talent. They have plenty of salary flexibility now that doesn't roll over. Wasting that or selling it for cheap isn't innately smart. They should be looking at every tool to acquire and upgrade talent. They should not be sitting their passively waiting for a contending core to fall into their laps.

[Dex]

The Spurs aren’t going to trade for Jrue Holiday for the same reason that Portland isn’t going to keep him. He is a valuable piece on a contender. On a rebuilding team draft capital is worth more. So Portland, which is rebuilding, is going to trade him to a contender for draft capital.

This is a discussion forum, though. The Spurs have made it clear 100,000 different ways that they don’t intend aggressively to improve the roster around Wemby, but rather to stand pat. Standing pat does not provoke a lot of discussion. That is why for a while there were threads with no responses for 2 weeks lingering on the first page. There wasn’t much to talk about. But speculation about things that aren’t going to happen at least gives posters something to talk about.

Other things that get discussed when there isn’t much to talk about:
What constitutes tanking?
Is Wemby’s dye job temporary?
Who are the draft prospects for 9 months from now?
Is the wood trim in the new practice facility good or bad?

Only the San Antonio Spurs could make the acquisition of Victor Wembanyama so anticlimactic that their own fans are bored.

That's just the offseason for you. The draft was 3+ months ago and while the Spurs made a few interesting moves, it seems pretty clear they are running with what they got now.

Personally, I'm all for it. No one should expect Wemby to come in and make us instant contenders, and there is probably no move the Spurs could have made to enable that.

But yeah, it's been a long time since Spurs fans have gotten any interesting news. Fortunately, preseason is right around the corner.

[Chinook]

Holiday definitely won't be this guy since I doubt he is looking to close out his career on a team probably headed for another top 5 pick. I bet if he got asked what 20 teams he would want to play for the Spurs wouldn't be on the list.

People think every "veteran player" wants to "teach" young guys something. Most don't. Most have made the money they wanted and now probably want to ring chase.

The Spurs can almost not afford to bad top-five pick bad again. Guys like Vassell and Johnson can't afford to be terrible again. The Spurs had to try really hard to tank last year. I don't think they'd be anywhere near a top pick if they changed to a win-now posture.

As far as Holiday goes, they should 100-percent ask him if he's willing to pick up his option and stay in SA through his contract prior to trading for him. I don't actually think Jrue would have an issue with not being on a contender so long as he's on a team trying to win games and play their best players. But they shouldn't trade for him while he still has his PO unless it's for basically nothing. As much as those picks lack value, they have too much value for that.

[Mr. Body]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.

I mean, even NBA.com projects the Spurs last in the West this year, so it's not too far fetched. Hopefully the low expectations will motivate the team a little bit. Is there still such a thing as bulletin-board material? :lol

[poopbox]

The Spurs can almost not afford to bad top-five pick bad again. Guys like Vassell and Johnson can't afford to be terrible again. The Spurs had to try really hard to tank last year. I don't think they'd be anywhere near a top pick if they changed to a win-now posture.

As far as Holiday goes, they should 100-percent ask him if he's willing to pick up his option and stay in SA through his contract prior to trading for him. I don't actually think Jrue would have an issue with not being on a contender so long as he's on a team trying to win games and play their best players. But they shouldn't trade for him while he still has his PO unless it's for basically nothing. As much as those picks lack value, they have too much value for that.

Sure Vassel and Johnson can afford to be on bad teams again. Johnson already got his extension so it's not like he has any money on the line. Everyone in the league thinks highly of Vassel. You listen to any nba podcast you going to hear either that he could have been a candidate for most improved player last year if the spurs weren't tanking and not playing him or that he will be a most improved player candidate this year. If it don't work out for him in SA he will have plenty of other teams that will want to sign him. I actually think people well be surprised by how much money the Spurs will have to pay to keep him, compared to what they payed to keep Murray, White, and Keldon.

[Mr. Body]

I mean, even NBA.com projects the Spurs last in the West this year, so it's not too far fetched. Hopefully the low expectations will motivate the team a little bit. Is there still such a thing as bulletin-board material? :lol

Yeah, don't believe the chodes at nba.com anymore than I do their buddies at ESPN. It's just a bunch of morons running a website.

[Bruno]

I can't say I agree with this. Well, I can agree that rebuilding often involves tearing down and then hopefully building back up. But I don't think one will find many examples of teams that have followed this path to success. Instead, it feels like a team will tear down, sit as a bad team as long as it takes to get a star through the draft, free agency or a trade and then try to capitalize on that star by aggressively adding talent. We don't know for sure if the Spurs have their star or even multiple stars yet and in general if what kind of talent they have. That's why getting players to help determine that and who can help refine whatever talent they do have is a worthwhile goal. Trade assets are not money -- they don't just sit in a bank and keep gaining value. The Spurs HAVE to use the six picks they're looking at somehow (with the exception of the Chicago pick). They won't necessarily be any closer to having their young core by then. In fact, if the roster is clogged with even more meh first-rounders they might be further from that goal. Holiday wouldn't make the Spurs contend, but he could improve guys who might be on the team when it contends.

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

[spurraider21]

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.
im not sure about this. Tre's lack of shooting congests the offense more than it would with a more typical "modern" point guard. i agree that hes a solid ballhandler and passer (assist/turnover ratio and whatnot), but even things like Wemby as a pick and roll finisher cant really be fully evaluated if the point guard isnt a scoring threat. while wemby can shoot, he's still a guy that requires spacing if he wants to play a face up game, and the difference between holiday and tre there would be significant.

and even defensively, as much as Tre gives effort and is generally fundamentally sound, he's just physically overwhelmed at times. guess it would help evaluate help defense from others...

[JeffDuncan]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.


It’s kind of like a gambling addiction. A guy hits the jackpot, and instead of being satisfied with that, it only makes his gambling habit worse.

The Spurs tanked, and hit the draft jackpot with Wemby, so of course the gamblers want to try it again. But I don’t think the Spurs are in the grip of a gambling addiction. Hope not.

And as far as the Spurs going with what they’ve got, a point about that is, they don’t really know what they’ve got. The only players on the roster who could be considered known quantities are probably McDermott, Graham, Bullock and Osman. There are significant questions about everybody else, questions that need to be answered.

Sochan is a prominent example. He’s got just about everything you’d want in a player, except shooting. 25% from 3pt range. Sux. However, he’s wonderfully coachable. His one-handed free throw shooting proves that. He’s fearless at trying things to improve his game. But can he get the results?

Don’t know yet.

Is Zach Collins a good pairing with Wemby in a two bigs lineup?

Don’t know yet.

Etc, etc, etc. Go down the roster and you’ll see questions all over the place. So, what the heck do the Spurs even have?

There’s only one way to find out for sure. Put them out on the floor in an NBA game and take a look.

As I understand it, that’s the strategy for this season, to try to get answers to as many of those questions as they can, and then decide what moves are needed. Sounds sensible to me.

[spurraider21]

It’s kind of like a gambling addiction. A guy hits the jackpot, and instead of being satisfied with that, it only makes his gambling habit worse.

The Spurs tanked, and hit the draft jackpot with Wemby, so of course the gamblers want to try it again. But I don’t think the Spurs are in the grip of a gambling addiction. Hope not.

And as far as the Spurs going with what they’ve got, a point about that is, they don’t really know what they’ve got. The only players on the roster who could be considered known quantities are probably McDermott, Graham, Bullock and Osman. There are significant questions about everybody else, questions that need to be answered.

Sochan is a prominent example. He’s got just about everything you’d want in a player, except shooting. 25% from 3pt range. Sux. However, he’s wonderfully coachable. His one-handed free throw shooting proves that. He’s fearless at trying things to improve his game. But can he get the results?

Don’t know yet.

Is Zach Collins a good pairing with Wemby in a two bigs lineup?

Don’t know yet.

Etc, etc, etc. Go down the roster and you’ll see questions all over the place. So, what the heck do the Spurs even have?

There’s only one way to find out for sure. Put them out on the floor in an NBA game and take a look.

As I understand it, that’s the strategy for this season, to try to get answers to as many of those questions as they can, and then decide what moves are needed. Sounds sensible to me.
could argue the players need some direction and leadership to truly see what they have, and simply throwing them out there and hoping they figure it out among themselves isnt giving them a fair shake

[JeffDuncan]

could argue the players need some direction and leadership to truly see what they have, and simply throwing them out there and hoping they figure it out among themselves isnt giving them a fair shake


Coach Pop has magically changed into a potted plant? I missed that news report.

[Mr. Body]

It’s kind of like a gambling addiction. A guy hits the jackpot, and instead of being satisfied with that, it only makes his gambling habit worse.

The Spurs tanked, and hit the draft jackpot with Wemby, so of course the gamblers want to try it again. But I don’t think the Spurs are in the grip of a gambling addiction. Hope not.

And as far as the Spurs going with what they’ve got, a point about that is, they don’t really know what they’ve got. The only players on the roster who could be considered known quantities are probably McDermott, Graham, Bullock and Osman. There are significant questions about everybody else, questions that need to be answered.

Sochan is a prominent example. He’s got just about everything you’d want in a player, except shooting. 25% from 3pt range. Sux. However, he’s wonderfully coachable. His one-handed free throw shooting proves that. He’s fearless at trying things to improve his game. But can he get the results?

Don’t know yet.

Is Zach Collins a good pairing with Wemby in a two bigs lineup?

Don’t know yet.

Etc, etc, etc. Go down the roster and you’ll see questions all over the place. So, what the heck do the Spurs even have?

There’s only one way to find out for sure. Put them out on the floor in an NBA game and take a look.

As I understand it, that’s the strategy for this season, to try to get answers to as many of those questions as they can, and then decide what moves are needed. Sounds sensible to me.

Exactly. And I understand what people are saying that you need certain types of players in place to help other players develop. This is why I don't think Portland getting Ayton is a bad idea. He's expensive, lazy, may not be there after this contract, etc., but he gives the team structure on both ends and will help the young guards.

Thing is, the Spurs already have all the pieces around them they need to see what they have. They already have veterans. They have players at every fluid position and many with different skillsets. They have an offensive system that de-emphasizes the PG, a spot of weakness. They just need to get serious about defense.

As for how good they'll be -- dunno. I think a lot of people are discounting Wembanyama. Some reason they don't seem to realize he's on this team, he's going to be on the floor, and his impact is not going to be insignificant. I believe this is in part due to a lack of hype. If he went to an ESPN-approved market, expectations of wins would be wild. I think we're discounting the young players we have, like all these 19 and 20 year-olds are as good as they ever will be, when there's already significant talent on the squad. I'd take this group over Houston yet I think many here wouldn't. It's weird.

[spurraider21]

Coach Pop has magically changed into a potted plant? I missed that news report.
is he running point?

[The Truth #6]

So no way the Spurs are bottom 5 then y'all list a bunch of unknowns to support your argument. That doesn't make sense. You have no idea what Pop wants to do. That's the most important unknown. He may be content to go super slow with Wemby and rest him a ton, all with no great point guard options. That's the likely scenario based on what the FO and Pop have been signalling and by how they approached the off-season. So in a sense, if you admit there are so many unknowns you should acknowledge that the lottery is very much a possibility too.

[poopbox]

Don't worry, the Spurs aren't going to be bottom 5. It's just a fantasy some fans have for some bizarre reason.

How are they NOT going to be bottom 5? Tanking teams like Houston and Detriot will be trying to win. Pretty much every team in the nba made win now deals in free agency except for San Antonio. This team is a Wemby injury away from being the same team from last year. And I don't expect Wemby to play in 82 games.

The spurs need a starting caliber point guard. They did nothing to get one. They need a big who can shoot 3's at a decent volume they did nothing to get one. This team is going to spend this year figuring out what kind of players fit with Wemby, and I expect them to lose a lot this year in finding that out. I don't think they actually start trying to "win" until this upcoming free agency.

The only team I see as bad as the spurs this year is Portland and that is because they are unloading there veteran players and rebuilding.

[TD 21]

They could if they really wanted to, but won't for all the obvious reasons.

The only possible involvement I could see them having, is if the Knicks trade for him (which I doubt, considering the 76ers, Clippers, Celtics and Heat will probably be more desperate).

Something like Holiday and Bassey to the Knicks; Fournier, Graham and draft capital from the Knicks and Spurs to the Trail Blazers and Quickley and Hartenstein to the Spurs, could work.

[JeffDuncan]

is he running point?


Damn right Pop is running the point, and everything else about the Spurs. They have a playbook. You know that. They have a detailed game plan for every game they play. You know that. There is no time when any Spurs player is just sent out on the court and left to figure it out for himself. Never happens.

[Chinook]

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

I don't think they just need someone who can "run the offense". I think they need someone who can elevate the standard of play on the team. That's why I've been in favor of many of these discussed moves. It's one thing for the Spurs to give guys a chance to develop. It's another thing to artificially create a roster where their guys don't have to develop much to get minutes. As I mentioned to SR21, the Spurs are now in a position where guys like Vassell and Johnson are culture leaders and the closest thing to high-position vets on the team. Why? What have they earned? Nothing. They were net-negative players on a horrible team. Instead of having to earn spots, they have second-round picks, expiring vets and UDFAs to compete against. What is their incentive to get better? As Poop said, Johnson may not actually see any. Vassell may want a new contract, but it's not clear that having him playing for that is what the team should want anyway.

Whether it's right now or really soon, the team is going to have to go, "Wow, we aren't in the poor house anymore. We have a legit blue-chip prospect. Unless their plan is to somehow get another one in the draft, then they should try to be good. Not "all-in" good. But surely better than penciling in Tre as the starting PG and Branham as the sixth man. They should bring in legit rotation players and say, "We like you, but we can't play you if you can't show us more than journeymen". Even if they aren't going to make any big moves, they in the very least should go into camp giving guys like Graham, Bullock and even Cedi legit shots at rotation minutes. Hell, if Birch is healthy, he absolutely should get a chance at back up center given who the competition is.

[JeffDuncan]

… if you admit there are so many unknowns you should acknowledge that the lottery is very much a possibility too.


Certainly it’s a possibility. The difference is, last season it was the major goal to get a high draft pick, but this season a top five draft pick, to use that number, would be a side effect. The focus has shifted to player evaluation, as I understand it. Not to imply that a high pick would be unwelcome.

[Joseph Kony]

I think its pretty likely Spurs have a bottom 5 record again next year, though I would not be entirely surprised if they were ~10th worst. it really depends on Wemby and his health/how much leash the coaches give him. if he is the real deal from day one and hits the ground running, this team's ceiling is raised a bit, moreso if the coaches don't load manage or treat him like a china doll too much. if he has growing pains and/or has injuries/gets load managed a lot, the team will almost certainly be in the bottom 5 again next season. unless you think Devin and Sochan become all-star level players next season

[exstatic]

I think its pretty likely Spurs have a bottom 5 record again next year, though I would not be entirely surprised if they were ~10th worst. it really depends on Wemby and his health/how much leash the coaches give him. if he is the real deal from day one and hits the ground running, this team's ceiling is raised a bit, moreso if the coaches don't load manage or treat him like a china doll too much. if he has growing pains and/or has injuries/gets load managed a lot, the team will almost certainly be in the bottom 5 again next season. unless you think Devin and Sochan become all-star level players next season

He's going to be a Galactic level defender right out of the box, solving a lot of issues from the last several seasons.

[baseline bum]

I mean, even NBA.com projects the Spurs last in the West this year, so it's not too far fetched. Hopefully the low expectations will motivate the team a little bit. Is there still such a thing as bulletin-board material? :lol

Jesus, worse than Portland? Not expecting playoffs or anything but don't see this as another 22 win team.

[Chinook]

It's pretty hard for teams to have a bottom five record without trying to have one. The Spurs had to scrape and claw to lose as many games as they did last year. People may be underestimating the extent to which teams will tank once they realize they aren't making the playoffs. For teams outside the top 10, tanking is a state of mind rather than talent. If the Spurs want to be bad, then they will be. If they don't, then they'll be competing for the play-in, with or without Wemby coming into his own. That's why the single most important factor in this discussion is what PATFO plan to do.

But this discussion started under the assumption that the Spurs trade for Holiday. They shouldn't be projected particularly close to the bottom five if they were to trade for him. That's for three reasons. One, the PG position would go from one of the weakest in the league to one of the strongest. Two, Vassell and Johnson should see even better looks with Holiday and Wemby and thus should be even better. Three, trading picks for Holiday would be pretty solid evidence for what posture the Spurs are going to take this season.

In short, the Spurs could well be a bottom-five team this season. But they don't have to be. They aren't preordained to be.

[baseline bum]

I agree with half of what you said.

I agree with you that Spurs shouldn't wait to have their full young core before going after vets. That's why I said stages can overlap. If this year goes well, I will be all for Spurs being aggressive next summer in the trade and free agent markets. I agree with you that Spurs can't just count on their draft picks and it looked like they aren't since they took a close look at Austin Reaves this summer.

The part where I disagree is about adding Jrue Holiday will significantly help the development or evaluation of other players. Players needs steady and solid play from the PG spot to develop but Spurs already have that with Tre Jones. Don't get me wrong, Jrue Holiday is ten times better than Tre but Tre will set up well the offense to allow other players to get better.

If they're getting a good idea what they have this year I wouldn't mind deadline deals, especially considering the Spurs might really need to jump on deals in Summer 24 anyways with the Atlanta picks starting in 25. Well unless Atlanta looks like a 20 win team and then maybe keep them and hope for Cooper Flagg in 25 or a swap to land Cam Boozer in 26? :lol

[JPB]

No offense to Bruno but I don't see Tre as a"steady, solid" PG... He's a back up PG in any non tanking team... He's neutral at best, not a picknroll nor a shooting or driving threat that would open lines or space for Wemby. Not sure about his lob game either.

Spurs need a dynamic, skilled PG or swingman who can drive, shoot and lob to play the two man game with Wemby.

[MultiTroll]

Damn right Pop is running the point, and everything else about the Spurs. They have a playbook. You know that. They have a detailed game plan for every game they play. You know that. There is no time when any Spurs player is just sent out on the court and left to figure it out for himself. Never happens.
NBA Playoffs: Fans were stunned that Spurs didn’t foul late in Game 7 (usatoday.com) (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/04/denver-nuggets-san-antonio-spurs-game-7-no-foul)
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[DAF86]

I always loved Jrue as a player. One of the most underrated players of this generation. I wouldn't give up a first for him in our situation though.

Although, I wonder if we trade for him now and trade him away to a contender at the deadline, could we get more draft capital than what we gave up? I don't even know if that's possible.

[Mr. Body]

How are they NOT going to be bottom 5? Tanking teams like Houston and Detriot will be trying to win. Pretty much every team in the nba made win now deals in free agency except for San Antonio. This team is a Wemby injury away from being the same team from last year. And I don't expect Wemby to play in 82 games.

The spurs need a starting caliber point guard. They did nothing to get one. They need a big who can shoot 3's at a decent volume they did nothing to get one. This team is going to spend this year figuring out what kind of players fit with Wemby, and I expect them to lose a lot this year in finding that out. I don't think they actually start trying to "win" until this upcoming free agency.

The only team I see as bad as the spurs this year is Portland and that is because they are unloading there veteran players and rebuilding.

I have no idea how you could be this delusional, and in service of this internalized demand to watch a sucky team I guess? One that doesn't exist? Just after pointing out that you don't seem to think Victor Wembanyama exists, you do it again.

The Spurs have more talent than Detroit and Houston full stop. Saying those are better teams is risible. They're better than Portland. Better than Washinton. Indiana, Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans if Zion doesn't get it together, Utah, Minnesota, those are all teams that can tumble. Golden State, Clippers, Lakers are all age or injury away from mediocrity. Atlanta and Brooklyn too.

I don't think you realize how mediocre this league is right now. The Spurs purposefully lost all but 22 games last year. They could have won more. They added a player -- Victor Wembanyama -- who is real, although you don't want to admit it. And there is a good amount of talent on this.

Detroit is better. LMAO

[MultiTroll]

No offense to Bruno but I don't see Tre as a"steady, solid" PG... He's a back up PG in any non tanking team... He's neutral at best, not a picknroll nor a shooting or driving threat that would open lines or space for Wemby. Not sure about his lob game either.

Spurs need a dynamic, skilled PG or swingman who can drive, shoot and lob to play the two man game with Wemby.
+ he's a defensive liability for sure.
So right off the bat you've got Wemby having to compensate.
Okay so perhaps it's just temp and relatively low cost as they wait for a real PG thru another draft or trade.

Hoping this isn't another Pops Pets movie.:rolleyes Bryn Bryn started what, 151 of 152 games? If so, ownership / FO need to get a spine and act quickly.

[CGD]

Im not giving up assets for a 1 year rental of Jrue Holiday. He’s a good player, but no way he extends with the Spurs beyond his current deal. It’s the same reason Portland is hot to flip him now.

[JeffDuncan]

I always loved Jrue as a player. One of the most underrated players of this generation. I wouldn't give up a first for him in our situation though.

Although, I wonder if we trade for him now …


How? What can the Spurs offer that the Blazers would accept?

They don’t want guards. They don’t want a starting center. A forward? They have Jerami Grant.

What’s the offer?

[DAF86]

How? What can the Spurs offer that the Blazers would accept?

They don’t want guards. They don’t want a starting center. A forward? They have Jerami Grant.

What’s the offer?

I'm talking about giving up a first round pick and maybe get it back (or more) at the trade deadline.

Not even saying I would do it, just asking if that hypothetical could happen.

[spurraider21]

I'm talking about giving up a first round pick and maybe get it back (or more) at the trade deadline.

Not even saying I would do it, just asking if that hypothetical could happen.
we'd have to send back salary to make it work

in theory, something like graham + bullock + birch/osman

blazers only have 12 guys on the roster now

[jjspur]

With or without (99.99 % without) Jrue Holliday, the spurs will still be better than last year for few reasons.
!. Need I even say it Wemby. With out even playing a single game yet, he is at least our second best player and will (barring injury) be our best player by the end of the season.
2. We don't have bottom of the barrel scrubs like Langford or Dieng any more. Didn't notice either of them getting a multi year deal this summer.
3. The team will at least try to win. After starting fairly well, Pop probably told the team what are you doing ? we are trying really hard to tank for a chance at Wemby. Luckily for us that strategy paid off. Not to mention there are no generational talents in next years draft.
4. Other teams lost players due to trades, signing with other teams or their contracts not being picked up. The landscape has changed possibly allowing the spurs to move up a few spots in the standings.

The spurs didn't do much in the summer essentially bring back the same crew plus a few low cost additions. The spurs had no reason to win last year other than to win the Wemby sweepstakes, this year is different. We have a bit more overall talent so its likely to turn into several more wins. If a few things fall the right way, we could be looking at a play in slot. If we don't we'll have 2 possibly 3 draft picks in the next draft. Either way it looks like a positive year for the spurs fans with or without Jrue Holliday (most likely without).

[Proxy]

why do people want to max out the team's potential this year jfc, we don't even know what we have with them tanking last year. Some of yall think we're still in 'Big 3 are old' mode

[Bruno]

No offense to Bruno but I don't see Tre as a"steady, solid" PG... He's a back up PG in any non tanking team... He's neutral at best, not a picknroll nor a shooting or driving threat that would open lines or space for Wemby. Not sure about his lob game either.

Spurs need a dynamic, skilled PG or swingman who can drive, shoot and lob to play the two man game with Wemby.

None taken because I agree with you. Tre isn't starting material and Spurs should definitively look for a starting PG in the future.

My point is that Tre main quality is to be a good "floor general". With him on the court, Spurs' offense will be under control and won't be a train-wreck which is crucial for the development of other players. He is more a Jacque Vaughn than a Beno Udrih.

[rankingtear]

The value of Jrue for a contender is way more than anyone can stomach as a key vet for this team.

[CorrectCrusader]

Im not giving up assets for a 1 year rental of Jrue Holiday. He’s a good player, but no way he extends with the Spurs beyond his current deal. It’s the same reason Portland is hot to flip him now.
He said he wants to retire at the end of his current contract.

[CGD]

He said he wants to retire at the end of his current contract.

I think he means he wants one more deal before he retires. He will opt out of his player option next summer, and get one more massive pay day. I don’t see him doing that in SA or Portland for that matter, he wants to compete for a chmapionship.

[rankingtear]

1707755022606364754

1707426790782706141

[JeffDuncan]

I think he means he wants one more deal before he retires. He will opt out of his player option next summer, and get one more massive pay day. I don’t see him doing that in SA or Portland for that matter, he wants to compete for a chmapionship.


You think wrong. My man, his current contract *is* his massive payday. He’ll be 34 years old when it’s time to sign that player option next season, and the amount is $39.4 million, with another $2 million in likely incentives. That is over $41 million, again as mentioned, at age 34. Then, at age 35, he will retire.

Nobody is going to offer him that kind of contract again at age 34 or 35. NBA players don’t last forever and everybody knows it. Generally speaking, age 35 is the end of the career.

Holiday was part of the Lillard trade for salary matching. The Bucks didn’t really want to give Holiday up, but hey, it’s Damien Lillard, so they did what they had to do.

The Blazers probably insisted on Holiday because they knew he’d be the easiest to trade onward to another team. All else equal, they’d keep Holiday, I’m sure, but they don’t have minutes for him. They just drafted Scoot, after drafting Sharpe last year, and they have Simons too. The young guys have to get the floor time so the Blazers can see how they stand at the guard position without Lillard. Rebuilding, in other words.

Holiday makes no sense for the Spurs. He can’t be part of a good Wemby team in 3 years. Age. Plus, there’s the practical matter that the Spurs have no way to trade for him. Well, the Spurs do have one thing that would have the Blazers falling all over themselves to work out a deal, but there ain’t no chance in hell.

[exstatic]

The crappy thing for Portland is that the teams that have the picks have no use for Jrue. Maaaaybe BKN if they want to accelerate their time line.

[Mr. Body]

I just don't see how they get two FRPs for him. Nobody has that who wants him. My feel is that there are fewer suitors here than admitted. He'll go somewhere good, but probably for a single first and some seconds maybe. Don't see how he gets more than Lillard did in a pick package (ignoring protections).

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Jesus, worse than Portland? Not expecting playoffs or anything but don't see this as another 22 win team.

I mean, this was written in August, but yeah...

https://www.nba.com/news/offseason-power-rankings-west-2023

[JeffDuncan]

I just don't see how they get two FRPs for him. Nobody has that who wants him. My feel is that there are fewer suitors here than admitted. He'll go somewhere good, but probably for a single first and some seconds maybe. Don't see how he gets more than Lillard did in a pick package (ignoring protections).


A lot will depend on the players who are offered. If the Blazers can get a good young player as part of the deal, who fits their timeline, that would have the value of a draft pick. But I don’t know who could, or would, include a player like that as part of a Jrue trade.

Maybe it should be read as, the equivalent of two FRPs, with the equivalent being their judgment call. We’ll find out soon enough, I suppose.

[Mr. Body]

A lot will depend on the players who are offered. If the Blazers can get a good young player as part of the deal, who fits their timeline, that would have the value of a draft pick. But I don’t know who could, or would, include a player like that as part of a Jrue trade.

Maybe it should be read as, the equivalent of two FRPs, with the equivalent being their judgment call. We’ll find out soon enough, I suppose.

The tweet saying at 2 FRPs is Portland understandably trying to set the market. It's like how the Sixers would feed the press info about how much interest when they were trying to create interest in Ben Simmons. I do see it more likely a decent player or two plus a FRP.

Like you said, I don't know what playoff team has a young player or two to cough up. Plus Jrue seems like he's going to opt out next summer looking for a longer contract, so is it worth losing him after a year or paying through the nose for a guy who's 33?

I can see a team like Pelicans going for him. Word is there's not much interest in a LAC-PHI-POR move.

[spurraider21]

btw, while holiday previously said back in 2022 that he was feeling very strongly about retiring at the end of this contract, he has since walked it back


"Just them being my friends and we've talked about stages in basketball and sometimes you go through modes or hard spots where like, even with my family, maybe the best thing to do is retire or even just being tired and being exhausted, playing a lot of basketball. But no," Holiday told Owczarski. "My answer is no, I'm not retiring."

[scott]

I don't think we're disagreeing that much, honestly. I just think that using two of the shittier picks is them enjoying an opportunity that most other teams can't. Most team's aren't going to have multiple firsts they can trade with it not being a big deal. For most other teams, it's a real future sacrifice. For the Spurs, we're talking completely moveable assets. For the reasons I've said, I think it could be worth the gamble. Even the shitty firsts have real value, as you said, but they don't have that value forever. They passed on potential opportunities to convert some of those picks into more immediate opportunities during the draft. Even after this, they'll have more opportunities. I just hope they don't "hold" their ways into pissing away those assets. That feels way more likely than not at this point though.



I don't see "seeing what we have" to mean that they have to let the players run around like headless chickens. Most players are not stars or have rotations built around their leadership or skill. In theory it's nice to see if Vassell or Keldon can become stable players with a higher option in the lineup. But what are we actually hoping for here? Do we wish that Vassell becomes a ball-dominant scorer or that Keldon gets a good iso game? Are we hoping that Tre Jones learns to score to the point that he's a decent PG? Personally, I'm hoping that they can become decent role-players who can fit in with stars when those develop or are brought in.

I'm sort of annoyed at how much the Spurs have neglected drafting or developing role-players since 2016. At some point they need to stop playing with the idea that X or Y can be a lead play-maker and instead ask "Can they shoot? Can they defend? Do they know how to do little things on the court?" That means you have to be willing to ramp up the competition guys like Branham, Wesley and the like get. No one who can't beat out Tre Jones is good enough to ignore getting an All-Star and champion player. The scenario that you bring up, where most of the team flops to justify bringing in six to ten new players over the next two drafts is a horror show, and I simply cannot imagine that many players being that irredeemably bad. That would be bad enough to cost basically the entire front office and staff their jobs. The team should absolutely be looking into upgrading their core, but that means they need to actually upgrade it when they have the chance and not just add lotto tickets to it.

Even in the pre-contending phase, they shouldn't just be looking at the draft to gain talent. They have plenty of salary flexibility now that doesn't roll over. Wasting that or selling it for cheap isn't innately smart. They should be looking at every tool to acquire and upgrade talent. They should not be sitting their passively waiting for a contending core to fall into their laps.

In addition to a lot of the thoughts in this thread, I'd be interested in sending the CHA and CHI picks for Jrue because if things don't really work out that well with Jrue, worst case is that he showcases on a bad team and you flip him for similar value that you gave up to get him, but perhaps on more favorable terms in regards to timing. Both the CHA and CHI picks are inconveniently timed in that they are likely to be our 3rd pick in a year they convey, if they convey at all.

[scott]

So no way the Spurs are bottom 5 then y'all list a bunch of unknowns to support your argument. That doesn't make sense. You have no idea what Pop wants to do. That's the most important unknown. He may be content to go super slow with Wemby and rest him a ton, all with no great point guard options. That's the likely scenario based on what the FO and Pop have been signalling and by how they approached the off-season. So in a sense, if you admit there are so many unknowns you should acknowledge that the lottery is very much a possibility too.

I think the Spurs are probably around 10 games better via the addition of Wemby and not intentionally tanking. 10 games better puts them at 32 wins, which would be the 5th worst record in the league.

[Seventyniner]

Jrue just got traded to the Celtics for Brogdon, Robert Williams, and two firsts (GS 2024 protected 1-4, BOS 2029 unprotected).

Probably a slight positive for the Spurs' 2028 pick swap with Boston cause Jrue will most likely be out of the league by then, but a team's record in one year and their record 5 years later have almost no correlation historically.

[Degoat]

Honestly pretty steep of a deal for The C’s giving up as much as they did. I kinda like what Portland has done. Having Robert Williams and Ayton will be interesting if they keep both.

[Leetonidas]

Honestly pretty steep of a deal for The C’s giving up as much as they did. I kinda like what Portland has done. Having Robert Williams and Ayton will be interesting if they keep both.

Brogdon is always injured and was not happy with almost being traded to the Clippers before. Williams likewise is incredibly injury prone. They didn't lose much imho. Especially with White on the roster, Brogdon was expendable


Williams and Ayton are not a fit at all in 2023

[spurraider21]

Lillard haul ends up being Ayton, Pat Williams, Brogdon, 3 firsts, 3 swaps

one of the firsts is ass, 2024 from warriors. The others are unprotected and well out into future

Cronin did well

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Great trade for Boston, they had to push some of their chips and they had a full stash, so good for them. Portland getting a nice haul as well, I imagine Williams and/or Brogdon will be on the move again.

[LeBowen]

Lmao @ delusional Heat fans trying to convince everyone Riley's offer was the best.

Not only that they didn't get Lillard, but the trade made two of their biggest rivals way better. :lmao:lmao

[Mr. Body]

C's depend on a 38 year-old Al Horford at center now. Replaced Marcus Smart with Jrue Holiday to acquire Porzingis and lost Grant Williams. It's a good counter to Milwaukee but they could be really fragile inside.

[rascal]

Honestly pretty steep of a deal for The C’s giving up as much as they did. I kinda like what Portland has done. Having Robert Williams and Ayton will be interesting if they keep both.

Boston is all in for a title this year.

[exstatic]

Honestly pretty steep of a deal for The C’s giving up as much as they did. I kinda like what Portland has done. Having Robert Williams and Ayton will be interesting if they keep both.

The GS pick will be in the 20s, so, it’s two chronically injured dudes, and the 2029 FRP.

[Jordan Jackson]

I like that Portland’s GM continues to kick Pat Riley in the nuts. Hopefully he throws something the Sixers way too for funsies.

[baseline bum]

Boston looking pretty fierce for the next couple of years, but once Holiday gets old and is a much worse player than Smart then hopefully Tatum and/or Brown will ask out and that 2028 pick swap becomes epic.

[exstatic]

Lmao @ delusional Heat fans trying to convince everyone Riley's offer was the best.

Not only that they didn't get Lillard, but the trade made two of their biggest rivals way better. :lmao:lmao

Pat Riley understands a lot about how to build an organization, but he is too stubborn sometimes, in the early 200s, he had a 3andD wing selected All Defense, but he wasn’t locked in, went into FA, and left the team for another opportunity. Riley trashed him, and basically said he was made by the Heat, and that they could churn out another him in 5 minutes. He was subsequently selected to 8 more All D teams. That player was Bruce Bowen, and the Heat didn’t have another All D wing player until Jimmy Butler showed up.

[baseline bum]

Pat Riley understands a lot about how to build an organization, but he is too stubborn sometimes, in the early 200s, he had a 3andD wing selected All Defense, but he wasn’t locked in, went into FA, and left the team for another opportunity. Riley trashed him, and basically said he was made by the Heat, and that they could churn out another him in 5 minutes. He was subsequently selected to 8 more All D teams. That player was Bruce Bowen, and the Heat didn’t have another All D wing player until Jimmy Butler showed up.

Was funny seeing the national media spray themselves to Bruce that whole 00-01 season in Miami and then snub him after he left to San Antonio.

[TD 21]

Brogdon is always injured and was not happy with almost being traded to the Clippers before. Williams likewise is incredibly injury prone. They didn't lose much imho. Especially with White on the roster, Brogdon was expendable


Williams and Ayton are not a fit at all in 2023

Holiday was definitely worth it for the Celtics to not only replace/upgrade Smart, but keep from other contenders.

But they did go from 7 starter quality players to 6 and after them and maybe Pritchard, the rest of the roster is deep bench players. They desperately need a quality third big behind old Horford and injury prone Porzingis.

The Lillard trade (still not completed, as Brogdon will inevitably be rerouted) is now officially a homerun for the Trail Blazers.



C's depend on a 38 year-old Al Horford at center now. Replaced Marcus Smart with Jrue Holiday to acquire Porzingis and lost Grant Williams. It's a good counter to Milwaukee but they could be really fragile inside.

Horford is their only credible Antetokounmpo/Embiid defender at this point. Barring another trade (they do have a $6.2M trade exception and surplus picks), they're actually going to need to hope Queta (TW) emerges or sign Griffin, Green, Biyombo, etc. and rely on them in high stakes games.

[CGD]

You think wrong. My man, his current contract *is* his massive payday. He’ll be 34 years old when it’s time to sign that player option next season, and the amount is $39.4 million, with another $2 million in likely incentives. That is over $41 million, again as mentioned, at age 34. Then, at age 35, he will retire.

Nobody is going to offer him that kind of contract again at age 34 or 35. NBA players don’t last forever and everybody knows it. Generally speaking, age 35 is the end of the career.

Holiday was part of the Lillard trade for salary matching. The Bucks didn’t really want to give Holiday up, but hey, it’s Damien Lillard, so they did what they had to do.

The Blazers probably insisted on Holiday because they knew he’d be the easiest to trade onward to another team. All else equal, they’d keep Holiday, I’m sure, but they don’t have minutes for him. They just drafted Scoot, after drafting Sharpe last year, and they have Simons too. The young guys have to get the floor time so the Blazers can see how they stand at the guard position without Lillard. Rebuilding, in other words.

Holiday makes no sense for the Spurs. He can’t be part of a good Wemby team in 3 years. Age. Plus, there’s the practical matter that the Spurs have no way to trade for him. Well, the Spurs do have one thing that would have the Blazers falling all over themselves to work out a deal, but there ain’t no chance in hell.

Naw

No way Boston gave up what they just did without thinking about extending Jrue at the first possible chance next spring.

[CGD]

I like that Portland’s GM continues to kick Pat Riley in the nuts. Hopefully he throws something the Sixers way too for funsies.

It’s been a great trade for Portland. And they’ll flip TimeLord for value too at some point.

[CGD]

Dame effectively become:

Deandre Ayton
TimeLord
Brogdon
2024 FRP Sun (via Boston)
2028 FRP swaps Bucks
2029 FRP Bucks
2029 FRP Celtics
2028 FRP swaps Bucks
Dumping Nurkics trash deal & fringe players

Damn good for aging star on atrocious deal.

[Mr. Body]

This better work for Boston. They're in salary cap hell already and extending Holliday is going to make things even worse.

[CGD]

This better work for Boston. They're in salary cap hell already and extending Holliday is going to make things even worse.

I’m still wondering whether they trade Brown in the next two years. That situation still feels off. That would be the way to recoup value

[Mr. Body]

I’m still wondering whether they trade Brown in the next two years. That situation still feels off. That would be the way to recoup value

Brown jumps up to $52 million season after this with $4 million increases/season after that. It's insane. He's not even a team leader. I could see them going for a KAT or something but his salary is ungodly.

[exstatic]

This better work for Boston. They're in salary cap hell already and extending Holliday is going to make things even worse.

I think they’re on a 1-2 year plan, pushing all the chips into the pot.

[JPB]

Quite the reset for POR. Assuming Scoot and Sharpe blossom, they're stacked with FRPs for the next 5 years.

[Mr. Body]

Quite the reset for POR. Assuming Scoot and Sharpe blossom, they're stacked with FRPs for the next 5 years.

They did extremely well given how things looked over the summer. Well done. They have a ways to go, imo. Scoot could be a good lead guard and general leader. I don't believe in Sharpe at all -- he was listless and lazy during summer league, not a good sign. Ayton shouldn't be in anyone's long term plans. Simons is a good microwave but not much else.

[scott]

All of a sudden, Portland has a really fun roster and has their own war chest of draft capital.

[baseline bum]

I think they’re on a 1-2 year plan, pushing all the chips into the pot.

And hope it blows up to hell for 2028

[talkspurs]

C's depend on a 38 year-old Al Horford at center now. Replaced Marcus Smart with Jrue Holiday to acquire Porzingis and lost Grant Williams. It's a good counter to Milwaukee but they could be really fragile inside.

I actually Like Wenyen Gabriel. Is he great no but I think he is a decent bench player. I would say he is along the lines of a lot of our bench bigs. He could be something or could be nothing. Played well in the time he had last year.

[MultiTroll]

I think they’re on a 1-2 year plan, pushing all the chips into the pot.
They had it all in place for 2022 Finals.

After that giveaway choke job, i don't see this core of marshmallows doing squat.

[exstatic]

They had it all in place for 2022 Finals.

After that giveaway choke job, i don't see this core of marshmallows doing squat.

Sometimes one player, not even a star, can make a big difference. We got smoked by LA in 2001, beaten 4-2 in 2002, added one non-star player, and won 3 of the next 5 championships. That player was Bruce Bowen, and he wasn't near the player that Jrue is, skill wise.

[Ariel]

All of a sudden, Portland has a really fun roster and has their own war chest of draft capital.
They were trapped in the treadmill with their refusal to trade Lillard, but he did them a HUGE favor by forcing his way out and making himself the bad guy, and I've got to hand it to Cronin, he kept his cool amidst all the drama and didn't cave in, and ended up with a really really good haul for a 33 y.o. guy on the tail end of his prime (if not past that). The next step is moving Jerami Grant by the trade deadline, if they get it done they'd have rid themselves of all bad contracts and. Never thought I'd say this, but hats off to Portland FO this time.

[Ariel]

Sometimes one player, not even a star, can make a big difference. We got smoked by LA in 2001, beaten 4-2 in 2002, added one non-star player, and won 3 of the next 5 championships. That player was Bruce Bowen, and he wasn't near the player that Jrue is, skill wise.
I think adding Manu may have had something to do with that as well, don't you think? Horry too.

[Mr. Body]

I think adding Manu may have had something to do with that as well, don't you think? Horry too.

One thing that wrecked us againt LAL was our point guard play. I loved Terry Porter back in the day, but he was dunzo by that point. Kobe was murder picking him up before halfcourt. Then suddenly we had Parker and that problem was gone.

[exstatic]

I think adding Manu may have had something to do with that as well, don't you think? Horry too.

Horry wasn't on the 2002-2003 team. Manu was a rookie, and didn't play until December, because of an injury suffered in the FIBA WC that summer.

[spurraider21]

I think they’re on a 1-2 year plan, pushing all the chips into the pot.
1-2 year plan with 25 year old tatum and 26 year old brown is really insane lol

[exstatic]

1-2 year plan with 25 year old tatum and 26 year old brown is really insane lol

It's not the ages, it's the payroll. Tatum is going to get paid next summer, and do you think he will take one penny less than Brown did this summer?

[spurraider21]

It's not the ages, it's the payroll. Tatum is going to get paid next summer, and do you think he will take one penny less than Brown did this summer?
i know. im not calling your assessment insane. i'm questioning boston's strategy.

[exstatic]

i know. im not calling your assessment insane. i'm questioning boston's strategy.

If they don't win a title, their whole strategy from trading KG and Pierce to NJ up until the present was for nothing.

[spurraider21]

If they don't win a title, their whole strategy from trading KG and Pierce to NJ up until the present was for nothing.
sure. but with tatum being a top 5 player in the league, your window to win around him is at least 6 years right now. its crazy to me that they'd be mortgaging so much just to try to force a win before his age 29 season or whatever.

[exstatic]

sure. but with tatum being a top 5 player in the league, your window to win around him is at least 6 years right now. its crazy to me that they'd be mortgaging so much just to try to force a win before his age 29 season or whatever.

With the new second apron rule, they won't be able to keep both Tatum and Brown and put a good team around them. They'll likely have to offload Brown and turn him into picks and young players as sort of a soft re-boot.

[Mr. Body]

Tatum making as much as Brown means they'll have two players occupying $110-130 million of their cap as the years advance. I realize the cap will probably go up, but that's insane.

[spurraider21]

they should have just moved brown

[exstatic]

they should have just moved brown

I think they ultimately will, but the timing may not have been right, and if he didn't extend this year, he would have been unrestricted next.

[Ariel]

Sometimes one player, not even a star, can make a big difference. We got smoked by LA in 2001, beaten 4-2 in 2002, added one non-star player, and won 3 of the next 5 championships. That player was Bruce Bowen, and he wasn't near the player that Jrue is, skill wise.I think adding Manu may have had something to do with that as well, don't you think? Horry too.Horry wasn't on the 2002-2003 team. Manu was a rookie, and didn't play until December, because of an injury suffered in the FIBA WC that summer.
You mentioned a 5 year window, Horry played in 80% of that time frame. As for rookie Manu, in the Lakers series he had the third most points (11.7 behind Tony's 14.8), and assists, and the most steals. He was already a big contributor. This isn't to take anything away from Bruce, he was huge and most of his contributions don't make it to the boxscore, but to reduce going from losing to winning 3/5 to just adding him is disingenuous. Great addition, but a hell of a lot more than that happened.

[scott]

they should have just moved brown

Got to feel there will be a healthy market to unload Brown, even with this deal. Celtics smart to run it back with Tatum and Brown but the bolstered support around them and see if it works. If not, you can offload Brown and Jrue’s deal is short term, shouldn’t be too hard to retool around Tatum.

Just hope for our sake it completely falls apart in 2028, though I do think Boston is set up as well as anyone right now for sustained success.

[spurraider21]

Got to feel there will be a healthy market to unload Brown, even with this deal. Celtics smart to run it back with Tatum and Brown but the bolstered support around them and see if it works. If not, you can offload Brown and Jrue’s deal is short term, shouldn’t be too hard to retool around Tatum.

Just hope for our sake it completely falls apart in 2028, though I do think Boston is set up as well as anyone right now for sustained success.
im not sure what Brown's market will look like with that contract tbh. i cant even imagine a potential suitor

[exstatic]

You mentioned a 5 year window, Horry played in 80% of that time frame. As for rookie Manu, in the Lakers series he had the third most points (11.7 behind Tony's 14.8), and assists, and the most steals. He was already a big contributor. This isn't to take anything away from Bruce, he was huge and most of his contributions don't make it to the boxscore, but to reduce going from losing to winning 3/5 to just adding him is disingenuous. Great addition, but a hell of a lot more than that happened.

Without Bruce, Kobe runs wild like he did on everyone else. Manu's 11.7 wouldn't matter.

[scott]

im not sure what Brown's market will look like with that contract tbh. i cant even imagine a potential suitor

I mean, there were plenty of suitors for Dame, I imagine there will be for Brown as well.

[spurraider21]

I mean, there were plenty of suitors for Dame, I imagine there will be for Brown as well.
Dame is a much better player than Brown. by orders of magnitude

[scott]

Dame is a much better player than Brown. by orders of magnitude

Dame’s also 33 while Jaylen is 26. And there is at least one team who will pay Fred Van Vleet $43m/year. Moving Jaylen won’t be a problem.