So are we ready to stop playing Sochan out of position?

[benefactor]

He's actually a good player. He's a shit PG. Figure it out, Pop.

[KaiRMD1]

I still can't get over how he just let Kyrie wide open

[MultiTroll]

Stop playing KJ out of position too.

Oh wait, what position would he fit in at?

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Pop started Bryn Forbes for like 4 fucking seasons you think hes gonna figure it out? :lol

[The Truth #6]

He's definitely struggling. But Pop is playing the long game. He sees the potential in Sochan. I'll give Pop the benefit of the doubt. He's been right before. Also I'm not sure Pop is all out trying to win games. If he wanted to win he would have left Jones in the game.

[timtonymanu]

He shouldn’t be the PG but lol at this notion that Sochan isn’t a good basketball player. Typical cliff jumping statement. Not referring to OP of course.

[ismael-robert]

Graham would've been better

[Dverde]

Graham would've been better

He was suspended for his DUI and couldn’t play.

[MannyIsGod]

Calling to change an experiment after one game as if we're contender or something is just dumb. Sochan will probably never be a great PG but it's one game in a season where winning 35 games would be an amazing success. They need to actually stick with it for awhile.

[benefactor]

Stop playing KJ out of position too.

Oh wait, what position would he fit in at?
KJ needs to come off the bench. He is simply not a fit starting.

[TekXX]

What is Sochan good at? Defense huh? Leaving Irving wide open? Made Pop look bad for subbing him.

[poopbox]

Tre should have closed at point tonight because of how good he was playing but I'm fine with Sochan at point. At least he got nowhere to go but up.

[benefactor]

Calling to change an experiment after one game as if we're contender or something is just dumb. Sochan will probably never be a great PG but it's one game in a season where winning 35 games would be an amazing success. They need to actually stick with it for awhile.
This team has zero continuity on the offensive end. It's a jumbled mess. I don't have a problem with experiments or growing pains or things like that. I do have a problem with playing a player who is a good player in a position where he his impact on the floor becomes a negative. If you want to keep the experiment going for a bit then fine. But the time has to come eventually when it has to be decided who is actually going to run the offense on this team. It looks like playground ball right now.

[rascal]

Calling to change an experiment after one game as if we're contender or something is just dumb. Sochan will probably never be a great PG but it's one game in a season where winning 35 games would be an amazing success. They need to actually stick with it for awhile.

For what? Sochan at pg will never be the long term solution.

Play him at his natural position and let him learn there.

[rascal]

Calling to change an experiment after one game as if we're contender or something is just dumb. Sochan will probably never be a great PG but it's one game in a season where winning 35 games would be an amazing success. They need to actually stick with it for awhile.

For what? Sochan at pg will never be the long term solution.

Play him at his natural position and let him learn there.

[benefactor]

Keldon in the starting lineup is the same problem. Wemby and Vassell need the ball. There is no room for him.

[MultiTroll]

Would Becky have this lame an offensive strategy?

[hoopdreams11]

IF Sochan would have made those layups he missed they spurs could have won despite the bad offensive sets

[hoopdreams11]

He's finishing worse than Wesley

[cd98]

Sochan has to play PG to stay on the floor when Wemby plays. He was the only guy that could guard Luka.

[spurraider21]

He's actually a good player. He's a shit PG. Figure it out, Pop.
Mold him into draymond. Such an obvious archetype

[couchman]

Lets be clear that our problem was not offense tonight.
We started Sochan and scored 43 points in the first quarter.
We shot over 50% for the game.
The biggest problem was that we had no answer for Luka. We never even slowed him down
And Wemby playing like a rookie didn't help of course. Without his turnovers and fouls it's likely a very different game

[TekXX]

Mold him into draymond. Such an obvious archetype

Yea or Diaw, only thing that makes sense. He's not a natural scoreer.

[Spurs Homer]

Stay the course,this is actually one of pops best moves in years…

im still shocked that pop is going with his 5 best players on the floor at the same time…
after the bonner/finley/bogans garbage years and the years he refused to pair tiago with timmy…

I am stoked that pop is allowing victor to play freely and putting his best players on the floor

stay the course- this will work

[benefactor]

Mold him into draymond. Such an obvious archetype
Agree wholeheartedly. Probably the best idea yet.

[Arcadian]

He shouldn’t be the PG but lol at this notion that Sochan isn’t a good basketball player. Typical cliff jumping statement. Not referring to OP of course.

He appears to be one of those "glue guys" who's decent at everything but doesn't excel at anything. Is that what you're seeing?

[Trainwreck2100]

He's actually a good player. He's a shit PG. Figure it out, Pop.

nah fuck that, the 1st quarter was amazing. I don't care about wins this season so long as i see more of that shit

[EricB]

Nothing like calm reasoned takes after, game 1.

[timtonymanu]

He appears to be one of those "glue guys" who's decent at everything but doesn't excel at anything. Is that what you're seeing?

I mean the guy is only 20 and he was one of the top rookies last year. I’m not gonna shit on the guy already for not knowing to play PG, he still has time to grow. Unlike Walmart version luka samanic and that predator Primo, sochan actually has the tools to improve.

[Chinook]

This team has zero continuity on the offensive end. It's a jumbled mess. I don't have a problem with experiments or growing pains or things like that. I do have a problem with playing a player who is a good player in a position where he his impact on the floor becomes a negative. If you want to keep the experiment going for a bit then fine. But the time has to come eventually when it has to be decided who is actually going to run the offense on this team. It looks like playground ball right now.

I wouldn't bet on Pop stopping any time soon. The "play Prospect X at PG" arrow seems to be the only one in their quiver. What's the last prospect that the team didn't try to make a PG? If looking at first-rounders, I think it would be Samanic (though I think if he had shown any promise, he'd've been up there) Milutinov (capillary burst) and LJC. Not everyone was designated a PG in real games, though many of them were (Sochan, Branham, Primo), but in the d-league or as a hybrid thing to do on the court, the coaches really seemed to emphasize the guys running point and developing floor games. That seems nice, but they always seemed to learn how to do that rather than refining their off-ball and support skills. I guess when they were star-hunting that kind of made sense. It worked for Kawhi. But I also think that ignores that Leonard was an elite role-player already from early in his first season. He didn't sacrifice any development to spec into stardom.

[tbdog]

There is no problem playing Sochan pg. Actually a offense looked good for chunks of the first quarter abs third quarter. Also, it's not an usual strategy making certain players play point earlier in their career. I recall Lavine played point for the twolves. And a certain Greek former mvp, played point early in his career.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Stop playing KJ out of position too.

Oh wait, what position would he fit in at?

Or just tell him to pass to Vassell when Vassell is on fire.

[wildbill2u]

Lets be clear that our problem was not offense tonight.
We started Sochan and scored 43 points in the first quarter.
We shot over 50% for the game.
The biggest problem was that we had no answer for Luka. We never even slowed him down
And Wemby playing like a rookie didn't help of course. Without his turnovers and fouls it's likely a very different game

Sochan was on Luka a lot of the games and couldn[t keep up with Luka most of the time. I guess luka is just too fast for him.

[tbdog]

Sochan was on Luka a lot of the games and couldn[t keep up with Luka most of the time. I guess luka is just too fast for him.

No. Luka required to be doubled by anyone other than Sochan guarding him. Sochan did fine. But it's fucking luka.

[Obstructed_View]

Tre has been a point guard forever. Jeremy has been a point guard for one game. They put up the same numbers.

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan was on Luka a lot of the games and couldn[t keep up with Luka most of the time. I guess luka is just too fast for him.
The best player in the NBA is good. Film at 11.

[mudyez]

This whole thing will have one of two results and both are fine:

a) He will not work out as a championship caliber PG or we somehow draft one that can be just that. That way he still will have gained some Point Forward skills, which will make him an even better complementary player next to Wemby or gives us an insane sixth man tool.

b) The whole thing works out and we will have a very special long lineup, that could be the foundation of some deep runs.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Mold him into draymond. Such an obvious archetype
he can't play like Draymond on offense or defense
they are completely different players
stop repeating this bullshit

[The Truth #6]

For what? Sochan at pg will never be the long term solution.

Play him at his natural position and let him learn there.

Yeah, let's start him at power forward! Sounds great. Oh, wait ..

[Mugen]

The best player in the NBA is good. Film at 11.

Jokic played tonight?

[$pursDynasty]

KJ needs to come off the bench. He is simply not a fit starting.
The problem with that is if you move Keldon to the bench I am not sure the starters have enough scoring on the floor. Wemby can't be leaned on as a scorer yet so that burden falls to Keldon and Vassel, and Collins is the Wemby protector. That might mean move Sochan to the bench but he isn't a good enough scorer to be your Manu, best player on the second unit. The Spurs need two savvy vets one a true point guard and one is a Mr Buckets off the bench like the Mavs have in Hardaway Jr.

[spurraider21]

he can't play like Draymond on offense or defense
they are completely different players
stop repeating this bullshit
He certainly can on offense. The natural passing ability and ball handling sufficient for secondary playmaking is there. So is the lack of scoring touch.

Defensively he just had to bulk up to handle post players better. The hallmarks are all there.

[exstatic]

This team has zero continuity on the offensive end. It's a jumbled mess. I don't have a problem with experiments or growing pains or things like that. I do have a problem with playing a player who is a good player in a position where he his impact on the floor becomes a negative. If you want to keep the experiment going for a bit then fine. But the time has to come eventually when it has to be decided who is actually going to run the offense on this team. It looks like playground ball right now.

Buckle up. The experimentation is going to last all year.

[rascal]

Buckle up. The experimentation is going to last all year.

I don't think so. Sochan will have some games that will be so bad the experiment will only last 10-15 games.
It will become obvious Sochan at pg will not work.

[exstatic]

I don't think so. Sochan will have some games that will be so bad the experiment will only last 10-15 games.
It will become obvious Sochan at pg will not work.

I wasn't just talking about Sochan. Don't look for anything normal, anytime soon.

[The Truth #6]

I don't think so. Sochan will have some games that will be so bad the experiment will only last 10-15 games.
It will become obvious Sochan at pg will not work.

It doesn't matter. To me, it seems obvious they are using this year to see if he can be the point guard of the future before they consider utilizing their trade potential for a point guard.

[TrainOfThought5]

Yeah, let's start him at power forward! Sounds great. Oh, wait ..

to be fair Wemby is looking more and more like a wing.

[The Truth #6]

to be fair Wemby is looking more and more like a wing.

I'll agree generally. But power forward is his natural position imo

[superbigtime]

It was ugly and he finished at the rim like Wesley last night.

[Mugen]

No way the old man isn't giving the Point Sochan experiment at least 20 games tbh

[Chinook]

There is no problem playing Sochan pg. Actually a offense looked good for chunks of the first quarter abs third quarter. Also, it's not an usual strategy making certain players play point earlier in their career. I recall Lavine played point for the twolves. And a certain Greek former mvp, played point early in his career.

You're proving the point rather than contesting it. Yes, there are stories about stars playing point. Guys who are going to have the ball in their hands should know how to make plays, read defenses all that jazz. But some guys are just role-players, and those role-players are critical to winning games. The Spurs have a bunch of role-players who run around thinking their stars because they were always trained and marketed that way. How can you tell Keldon to not try to win the game now after spending three years telling him to do so? How can you get on Branham for ignoring Wemby when all he heard last year was to be assertive on offense? Why do you have a forward out there trying to make guard rotations?

No, I don't think Sochan was irredeemably bad at PG or anything like that. But it's weird that the Spurs want to give him the ball when a good version of this team's future probably doesn't involve him being a perimeter player in the first place. Off the bench, it's whatever. In a world where the Spurs had drafted Brandon Miller, it would make some sense with the starters. But you have to think the second star will probably be the primary ball handler, Wemby getting the ball after that and the third star (like Vassell) getting the ball after that. Sochan being the guy who initiates the offense doesn't look likely in the future. In the here and now, he doesn't enough of an ability to score off the dribble to even start to bend a defense. He had a lot of success scoring opportunistically with cuts, fast-breaks and put-backs. Add a good three-ball and some improved understanding on how to create passing windows along the arc, and he could've been set up for a very interesting year. Instead, he's going to be doing this. It's not likely he's going to be as good this year as he could've been, and it may be worth it in the future. But if he follows the example of most of the other "he's going to play PG" guys, it'll probably cause more confusion than it will unlock hidden talents.

[rascal]

Teams need to apply pressure on Sochan early in the possession. I didn't see Dallas doing this.

His pg handles aren't tight enough and this will lead to burning seconds off the shot clock and will lead to many turnovers.

[jeebus]

Poop made Gary Neal the backup PG for what, like 2 seasons? And this was back when he was only half senile.

[JeffDuncan]

Teams need to apply pressure on Sochan early in the possession. I didn't see Dallas doing this.

His pg handles aren't tight enough and this will lead to burning seconds off the shot clock and will lead to many turnovers.


Doncic isn’t a quick point guard who can apply full court pressure. Not that I’m telling you anything. But yes, a quick defender can force Sochan to pass. The importance of that is unclear, tho, because Sochan is going to pass early anyway, since he has no ability to bend or break a defense with his dribble.

[spurraider21]

Poop made Gary Neal the backup PG for what, like 2 seasons? And this was back when he was only half senile.
kinda. his first season Hill was still there. he was the main backup PG the next 2 years but usually with Manu babysitting

[get_mills_out]

This team has zero continuity on the offensive end. It's a jumbled mess. I don't have a problem with experiments or growing pains or things like that. I do have a problem with playing a player who is a good player in a position where he his impact on the floor becomes a negative. If you want to keep the experiment going for a bit then fine. But the time has to come eventually when it has to be decided who is actually going to run the offense on this team. It looks like playground ball right now.

46 points in the 1st Quarter. The starting lineup has been annihilating teams coming out of the gate. This team just very obviously isn’t used to playing 48 minutes

[benefactor]

46 points in the 1st Quarter. The starting lineup has been annihilating teams coming out of the gate. This team just very obviously isn’t used to playing 48 minutes
Or that proves it only works in spurts and not for whole games tbh.

[Splits]

46 points in the 1st Quarter. The starting lineup has been annihilating teams coming out of the gate. This team just very obviously isn’t used to playing 48 minutes

combined end of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarter we were outscored 24-0. It was more about closing out quarters.

[Splits]

One thing clear from last night is VW was pissed off. He walked straight off the court after the game without shanking any hands and his presser was definitely an outlier from his previous media events. If we start like 2-8 we're going to have a pissed off star.

[Bruno]

I have no idea what is behind the whole Sochan at PG thing:
Does Pop really think that Sochan's future in the NBA is at the PG spot?
or
Is it just a phase to help Sochan's development?

Both scenarios don't really make sense to me.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's remains fun watching all the angst over Pop trying things. It's one game, if he doesn't show any improvement sure but I recommend patience.

[exstatic]

Or that proves it only works in spurts and not for whole games tbh.

No one's offense is even steven for 48 minutes. As Sean always says, "It's a game of runs".

[scott]

You're proving the point rather than contesting it. Yes, there are stories about stars playing point. Guys who are going to have the ball in their hands should know how to make plays, read defenses all that jazz. But some guys are just role-players, and those role-players are critical to winning games. The Spurs have a bunch of role-players who run around thinking their stars because they were always trained and marketed that way. How can you tell Keldon to not try to win the game now after spending three years telling him to do so? How can you get on Branham for ignoring Wemby when all he heard last year was to be assertive on offense? Why do you have a forward out there trying to make guard rotations?

No, I don't think Sochan was irredeemably bad at PG or anything like that. But it's weird that the Spurs want to give him the ball when a good version of this team's future probably doesn't involve him being a perimeter player in the first place. Off the bench, it's whatever. In a world where the Spurs had drafted Brandon Miller, it would make some sense with the starters. But you have to think the second star will probably be the primary ball handler, Wemby getting the ball after that and the third star (like Vassell) getting the ball after that. Sochan being the guy who initiates the offense doesn't look likely in the future. In the here and now, he doesn't enough of an ability to score off the dribble to even start to bend a defense. He had a lot of success scoring opportunistically with cuts, fast-breaks and put-backs. Add a good three-ball and some improved understanding on how to create passing windows along the arc, and he could've been set up for a very interesting year. Instead, he's going to be doing this. It's not likely he's going to be as good this year as he could've been, and it may be worth it in the future. But if he follows the example of most of the other "he's going to play PG" guys, it'll probably cause more confusion than it will unlock hidden talents.

Exactly this. What exactly is the point of this?

[benefactor]

I have no idea what is behind the whole Sochan at PG thing:
Does Pop really think that Sochan's future in the NBA is at the PG spot?
or
Is it just a phase to help Sochan's development?

Both scenarios don't really make sense to me.
It doesn't make sense at all. Literally all his strengths are amplified by playing off the ball and being more of a glue guy. On paper he works great next to Wemby. But that narrative collapses when you neutralize him by making him the point guard.

[benefactor]

As a side note...feels good to talk basketball again and be excited about it. Cheers. :toast

[Brazil]

As a side note...feels good to talk basketball again and be excited about it. Cheers. :toast

:bobo

[Brazil]

Now imagine Victor playing with the likes of Tony and Manu :lol

[hater]

The only position Sochan should be playing is water boy and tying sneaker laces for the guys IMO

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan is playing in position.

[JeffDuncan]

I have no idea what is behind the whole Sochan at PG thing:
Does Pop really think that Sochan's future in the NBA is at the PG spot?
or
Is it just a phase to help Sochan's development?

Both scenarios don't really make sense to me.


They put Sochan at the point because they want him out there and the other four spots are taken.

That’s it, folks. That’s all there is to it. There isn’t any more to know.

People go on and on about positionless basketball, and what a real point guard is, and blah blah blah, but all of that is only irrelevant hot air. None of that has anything to do with anything.

Collins is the center. Wemby is the PF. Keldon is the SF. Vassell is the SG. If you then insist on adding Sochan, where does he go? That is your answer.

[Sugus]

I don't think so. Sochan will have some games that will be so bad the experiment will only last 10-15 games.
It will become obvious Sochan at pg will not work.

No way Pop drops the Sochan PG experiment after 10 or 15 games. Like, "no way" as in that's just not gonna happen, whether you think it's good or bad that it isn't happening.

I'm willing to bet copious amounts of your favorite imaginary currency on it! JK, I'm no betting man, but I wish I was. This is easy money.

[Sugus]

No way the old man isn't giving the Point Sochan experiment at least 20 games tbh

Hilariously we agree on this, for exactly the opposite reasons. You'll think it's old man foolishness or stubbornness I'm guessing, but it's just such an obvious Spurs move.

Play the guy out of his comfort zone, push him to grow in areas he hasn't tapped before, and see what player comes out the other end. It's worked a number of times in the past, and I don't doubt it'll yield good results here too, even if Sochan isn't necessarily playing the PG position when we raise our next banner.

[Sugus]

It doesn't make sense at all. Literally all his strengths are amplified by playing off the ball and being more of a glue guy. On paper he works great next to Wemby. But that narrative collapses when you neutralize him by making him the point guard.

It makes a lot of sense, come on. Sochan is a very versatile and (by all accounts) smart player, and the Spurs see a very fluid mold on him. He's never played main ball-handling duties in his career, so why wouldn't you throw some of that at him to see how he handles and grows from it? It doesn't make sense not to try it, given the freedoms of modern ball and the Spurs' low stakes for the season.

I disagree that literally all his strengths are better shown off ball. He's a creative passer which he'll exploit more now, he's a good transition player but not necessarily a great finisher, which combined with his height and a young team full of guys running down the court, really lends itself to a style of play that the Spurs seem to be aiming for (and I'm thinking of Wemby's leaking out repeatedly here).

Fact remains and has been there since Magic, a 6'8'' PG is better than a 6'0 one - so if (major IF, I know) Sochan can develop into a primary ball handler, he'd be a much, much better asset to the team than otherwise. And even if he doesn't, what harm is some PG practice gonna do to his game? I'd really like him to at least be comfortable as a secondary handler, so if-and-when we make a "big splash" for a star player, hopefully a star PG, he can slot in as a "Giannis-lite" nightmare. That's my dream anyways, not necessarily what the Spurs are aiming for (and they might have even less of an idea than we do right now).

[TDMVPDPOY]

spurs need a floor general who knows how to run plays and giving the ball to the correct player

we dont have one, we just waiting for the open man easy pass for easy missed call...

wemby needs help down low with the offensive rebound or defensive matchups...fkn havinga midget down low trying to rebound when wemby is on the perimeter shooting...

[tbdog]

Teams need to apply pressure on Sochan early in the possession. I didn't see Dallas doing this.

His pg handles aren't tight enough and this will lead to burning seconds off the shot clock and will lead to many turnovers.

Look, overall I just disagree. If you asked what's the best version of the Spurs this season? Then it's not playing Sochan as the starting point. But same could be said about Wemby playing center, who made his 9 point run playing center last night. The long game is what I'm more interested in. And I think Sochan does better defending the outside than in the paint. He is really good getting around screens, which is what I'm most surprised about. For a thirty win team, I'm excited to watch.

[spurraider21]

Now imagine Victor playing with the likes of Tony and Manu :lol
Victor and Manu would be absolutely ridiculous

[spurraider21]

Sochan is playing in position.
sure but not the right one

[Obstructed_View]

Tre played out of his mind and put up nearly the same numbers against backups as Sochan did against Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic. Sochan is 20, Tre is 24. Sochan is playing in the right position, and he's dong fine.

Honestly, it's a fucking embarrassment that you guys pick the Spurs to win 27 games and then freak out when they don't dominate right out of the gate in a game where Vic was in foul trouble. This isn't Matt Bonner starting at center for two years, for God's sake.

Until Victor plays a full season, Sochan is the best Spurs rookie since Timmy. He's played three games this year, and the Spurs have put up over 40 points in the first quarter of two of them. And he isn't even in game shape yet. Neither is Victor, for that matter. The offense has not even had a chance to figure out what it is.

[Dex]

Tre played out of his mind and put up nearly the same numbers against backups as Sochan did against Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic. Sochan is 20, Tre is 24. Sochan is playing in the right position, and he's dong fine.

Honestly, it's a fucking embarrassment that you guys pick the Spurs to win 27 games and then freak out when they don't dominate right out of the gate in a game where Vic was in foul trouble. This isn't Matt Bonner starting at center for two years, for God's sake.

Until Victor plays a full season, Sochan is the best Spurs rookie since Timmy. He's played three games this year, and the Spurs have put up over 40 points in the first quarter of two of them. And he isn't even in game shape yet. Neither is Victor, for that matter. The offense has not even had a chance to figure out what it is.

You should see the dumb Facebook "fan page" that the Spurs forced on people to watch the Black & White Scrimmage.

Those people went into full fall-out mode after the first game of the season...a game where the Spurs competed despite Wemby's foul trouble, and got beat in the last two minutes by Luka doing Luka things.

They are already ready to fire Pop, trade Wemby, and start over. One of them insisted McDermott should get more minutes because "he is a veteran who plays good defense" :lmao

[Spurs Homer]

Stay the course…

applaud pop for trying new shit…

stop pining for “traditional pg” in a new league where everyone is a playmaker

and

stay the course - it will work and the starting five length will bother a lot of teams

[TD 21]

Tre played out of his mind and put up nearly the same numbers against backups as Sochan did against Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic. Sochan is 20, Tre is 24. Sochan is playing in the right position, and he's dong fine.

Honestly, it's a fucking embarrassment that you guys pick the Spurs to win 27 games and then freak out when they don't dominate right out of the gate in a game where Vic was in foul trouble. This isn't Matt Bonner starting at center for two years, for God's sake.

Until Victor plays a full season, Sochan is the best Spurs rookie since Timmy. He's played three games this year, and the Spurs have put up over 40 points in the first quarter of two of them. And he isn't even in game shape yet. Neither is Victor, for that matter. The offense has not even had a chance to figure out what it is.

:lmao At the irony/hypocrisy of calling out others for supposedly overreacting while doing the same thing and thinking Bonner was the starting C.

[Obstructed_View]

You should see the dumb Facebook "fan page" that the Spurs forced on people to watch the Black & White Scrimmage.

Those people went into full fall-out mode after the first game of the season...a game where the Spurs competed despite Wemby's foul trouble, and got beat in the last two minutes by Luka doing Luka things.

They are already ready to fire Pop, trade Wemby, and start over. One of them insisted McDermott should get more minutes because "he is a veteran who plays good defense" :lmao
Apparently some of those guys post here. :lmao

[Bruno]

Collins is the center. Wemby is the PF. Keldon is the SF. Vassell is the SG. If you then insist on adding Sochan, where does he go? That is your answer.

Sochan would be the backup SF/PF. He will have plenty of minutes available especially with Wembanyama playing some C too.

The biggest drawback at Sochan at PG is that it hurts the quality of Spurs' offense. I don't care if Spurs win or lose games. Winning 25, 30 or 35 games this season isn't important. What is important is playing a good basketball that will allow players to grow. What's better for Wembanyama, Tre Jones or Sochan at PG? Who will set him up the best?

Spurs might not win more games with Tre Jones as starting PG, because he is a limited player, but they will play the right way with him, which will help players development.

[The Truth #6]

Yes, but while they give Wemby time to figure things out on his own while giving him some freedom, I think they are ok with also letting Sochan figure out trying to be point guard, in part to see if he will rise to the challenge. And point guard might be the wrong term. Ultimately I think they realize that star players have to learn how to play on ball and simultaneously while letting Wemby experiment they are letting Sochan prove himself.

That's not unreasonable.

[scott]

Tre played out of his mind and put up nearly the same numbers against backups as Sochan did against Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic. Sochan is 20, Tre is 24. Sochan is playing in the right position, and he's dong fine.

Honestly, it's a fucking embarrassment that you guys pick the Spurs to win 27 games and then freak out when they don't dominate right out of the gate in a game where Vic was in foul trouble. This isn't Matt Bonner starting at center for two years, for God's sake.

Until Victor plays a full season, Sochan is the best Spurs rookie since Timmy. He's played three games this year, and the Spurs have put up over 40 points in the first quarter of two of them. And he isn't even in game shape yet. Neither is Victor, for that matter. The offense has not even had a chance to figure out what it is.

Thinking that a 10.3 PER is “nearly the same” as a 28.1 PER is wild, but I guess that’s the effect of the vaunted Luka/Kyrie defense.

[rogcl1]

Sochan would be the backup SF/PF. He will have plenty of minutes available especially with Wembanyama playing some C too.

The biggest drawback at Sochan at PG is that it hurts the quality of Spurs' offense. I don't care if Spurs win or lose games. Winning 25, 30 or 35 games this season isn't important. What is important is playing a good basketball that will allow players to grow. What's better for Wembanyama, Tre Jones or Sochan at PG? Who will set him up the best?

Spurs might not win more games with Tre Jones as starting PG, because he is a limited player, but they will play the right way with him, which will help players development.

Pop sees something and you know he is gonna let it play out. Yes the offensive side has things to work out but I think Pop sees potential there but these are young kids and pop has the patience to see it all through. I think the kicker is on defense where Pop sees a 6' 9' point guard that could switch onto anyone on defense.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Tre played out of his mind and put up nearly the same numbers against backups as Sochan did against Kyrie Irving and Luka Doncic. Sochan is 20, Tre is 24. Sochan is playing in the right position, and he's dong fine.

Honestly, it's a fucking embarrassment that you guys pick the Spurs to win 27 games and then freak out when they don't dominate right out of the gate in a game where Vic was in foul trouble. This isn't Matt Bonner starting at center for two years, for God's sake.

Until Victor plays a full season, Sochan is the best Spurs rookie since Timmy. He's played three games this year, and the Spurs have put up over 40 points in the first quarter of two of them. And he isn't even in game shape yet. Neither is Victor, for that matter. The offense has not even had a chance to figure out what it is.
yes, these disrespectful gentlemen have been complaining all offseason that the Spurs have a very weak roster, the worst starting point guard in the league, and the team won’t even win 30 games
but then the game starts and these surprised scrubs again start whining and hysterical, remembering Forbes in the starting five, etc
and this will continue for another 81 games

[duncan2150]

I also think Tre at PG would have been better to finish the game but let sochan playing in this position for 10-15 games and then we'll see. It's hard to judge something definitively after one game.

[KobesAchilles]

I mean I don’t think it’s hypocritical to look at a person and say they can’t do a particular job well. Everyone on here is clamoring that Sochan will be fine as a PG but really what evidence is there of that? But really it’s the small things that win games and I’m disappointed that fans can watch the Big 3 era and not see that.

How many times did the Spurs have close games against subpar teams but you weren’t worried bc you knew to close out the quarter they would out execute everybody? Too many times. It’s not like we blew out every bad team. A lot of times we were down and it was a 7 point game to start the 4th am I would think to myself we got this game in the bag.

Being close to winning games is nice but seeing the same stupid mistakes as last year isn’t. To close out quarters we were outscored like 23-0. And that’s what I’m talking about. It takes brains to win games and this team didn’t showcase that last night and hasn’t don’t that for a very long time.

No ok, we are still young you say. We still need to learn how to win you say. Everybody is getting used to their role you say. Well they better learn to pass the fucking ball to Wemby, their role is to support him, and how to win is to set him up and let him go to work. This game would be like if Duncan scored 9 straight in the 4th, and Antonio Daniels and Derrick Anderson iced him out. Pop would be all over the team for that shit and honestly so should the fans

[lebomb]

Sochan is NOT a PG period. Put Tre back where he belongs. LMAO.........Sochan a PG. Just because someone can handle the ball does not make em a floor general.

[exstatic]

LOL, at all of the pearl clutching at the very beginning of WHAT WAS STATED AS AN EXPERIMENTAL SEASON BEFORE TRAING CAMP.

[ambchang]

Gary Payton, Chauncey Billups, Dejounte Murray , Mark Price were all pretty bad when they started off, and Harden was a full on SG. Even Parker took years to become an actual PG. Payton was marked down as a bust after season 1, Billups sucked until he hit Detroit. Not saying Sochan could be a PG as good as those, but the point is PG is a tough role to play, and even the great ones get off the gates stumbling. Not everyone is a natural like Magic, Stockton or Kidd.

Will Sochan ever become a competent PG? I don't know, but to ditch the growth of Sochan and cap the potential of the team after a few games because of Tre Jones (I love his game actually, but we have seen the ceiling, or close to it) just lacks foresight.

The Spurs this year will not go all out, the front office is pretty clear about it. It's all about growth and learning, and if they win a few games along the way, great.

[CGD]

Nah. He’ll be there until the spurs draft the PG of the future (Collier?). Then they’ll move him to the 3 and trade Keldon.

[TD 21]

Terrible examples. All of those guys were PG or combo guards, with varying degrees of on-ball chops.

[YoungbuckMurray]

Play him at PG but close halves and 4th quarter with Tre at PG.

PG-Tre
SG- Devin
SF- Keldon
PF-Sochon
C- Wemby

[Russo21]

Nah. He’ll be there until the spurs draft the PG of the future (Collier?). Then they’ll move him to the 3 and trade Keldon.

Agree with this. I actually don't rate Keldon at all (and I grow sick of his always flexing and yelling and screaming and shouting aargh I wish he'd shut his mouth) but his stats may net us a decent player or draft pick in a trade.

Sochan isn't a PG but he could be a better SF than Bowen soon enough. Hopefully we can draft Wemby's PG running mate in the next few off seasons cause that PG isn't on the roster.

[Chinook]

As I mentioned in another thread, I think Sochan has some potential as a screener from the PG position. The Spurs can use him to get Wemby and Vassell open, while potentially giving them a favorable switch. You won't see this much if you don't call plays to get that action going, but Jeremy may well be the most natural screener in the rotation. It's not as flashy as playing one of the more traditional archetypes, but it's a unique trait he can add over Jones and might help more than his passing can do alone.

[R. DeMurre]

The great thing about basketball is that it's ever evolving. If anyone five years ago had proposed making an unathletic 6'11" 270 lb center the de facto point guard/point center of a team, they would've been laughed off of every NBA chat board on the planet... but the Nuggets did just that and now they're the defending champs. It still holds true that 90+% of the time a point center probably isn't the best strategy, but in this one instance, it definitely was. Wemby might be as much of an outlier as Jokic, so it will take a little bit of time to see what works best.

[cd98]

Let's hold judgment on Sochan playing point guard until the end of the season. He's going to struggle at first since he is probably playing point guard for the first time in his life. Let's see where he is at 3/4th of the season. No rush.

[ambchang]

Terrible examples. All of those guys were PG or combo guards, with varying degrees of on-ball chops.

Draymond, Bam, Jokic, Giannis. They all started off as spotty passers in their careers. They didn't necessary became PGs, but they are the central points of the offence using their height as an advantage. Giannis and Jokic are likely models for Wemby's growth, but the point is none of them were born with PG skills to direct the offence early in their careers either, but they were all given opportunities and improved drastically over their careers.

Murray could barely dribble when he came into the league, look at him now. Not sure why them being guards had anything to do with this? If (and admittedly a big if) Sochan makes the transition, wouldn't that then make him a guard?

[R. DeMurre]

Murray could barely dribble when he came into the league, look at him now. Not sure why them being guards had anything to do with this? If (and admittedly a big if) Sochan makes the transition, wouldn't that then make him a guard?


It is kinda crazy to think that in 2017 the Jamal Murray vs Emmanuel Mudiay debate was a legitimate topic for Denver.

[JeffDuncan]

Sochan would be the backup SF/PF. …


You asked why Sochan was playing PG. Pop wants Sochan in the starting lineup, and the other four spots are taken. Thus, Sochan plays point.

Of course Tre Jones is a better point guard. Sochan isn’t really a point guard at all.

For the question of why Pop wants Sochan to start, even tho putting him at the point is rather ludicrous, the answer has to be defense. The Spurs defense was so bad last year that it set records, records of the wrong kind. Sochan is, or certainly ought to be, better for the defense than Tre.

Defensive improvement is a higher priority than the offense. That’s the view they’ve adopted, obviously. I can’t say they’re wrong, again looking at how bad the defense was last year.

[PrimeMinister]

not everything needs an immediate reaction

give him time and opportunity against teams that dont have 2 of the best scorers in their backcourt

tre jones was running with the starting unit for much of the 4th with jeremy out. pop will adjust situationally as needed.

[jmard5]

Give them time. Let's recall a favorite Spurs quotation of a certain stonecutter hammering away at his rock...

[TD 21]

Draymond, Bam, Jokic, Giannis. They all started off as spotty passers in their careers. They didn't necessary became PGs, but they are the central points of the offence using their height as an advantage. Giannis and Jokic are likely models for Wemby's growth, but the point is none of them were born with PG skills to direct the offence early in their careers either, but they were all given opportunities and improved drastically over their careers.

Murray could barely dribble when he came into the league, look at him now. Not sure why them being guards had anything to do with this? If (and admittedly a big if) Sochan makes the transition, wouldn't that then make him a guard?

They were all more advanced or at least showed more promise than Sochan early on and I'd argue only Jokic is the hub of the offense (Antetokounmpo was) and the only one capable of being so for an elite half court offense.

Yeah, but Murray was always going to be a guard with a shaky jumper, so he had to become a competent ball handler, play maker and pullup shooter to stick, just like the rest you named. I just don't believe Sochan has that in him, but fortunately for him, he doesn't have to.

The comp I see is less athletic Aaron Gordon, who after masquerading (partially the Magic's fault) as a point forward early in his career, bulked up, accepted he was a PF (the modern type), was traded into the perfect situation and has become an elite role player.

[ambchang]

They were all more advanced or at least showed more promise than Sochan early on and I'd argue only Jokic is the hub of the offense (Antetokounmpo was) and the only one capable of being so for an elite half court offense.

Yeah, but Murray was always going to be a guard with a shaky jumper, so he had to become a competent ball handler, play maker and pullup shooter to stick, just like the rest you named. I just don't believe Sochan has that in him, but fortunately for him, he doesn't have to.

The comp I see is less athletic Aaron Gordon, who after masquerading (partially the Magic's fault) as a point forward early in his career, bulked up, accepted he was a PF (the modern type), was traded into the perfect situation and has become an elite role player.

Draymond and bam sucked.

[KingKev]

Coach Pop is the Joe Biden of the NBA

[scott]

Game One:

Sochan -8
Tre: +7

Game Two:

Sochan: -8
Tre: +14

For those keeping score at home.

[spursparker9]

Currently Tre is the best player that can feed Wemby...

Also interesting to note that Pop played Tre instead of Sochan in late 4th Quarter and starting of OT.

[CGD]

Game One:

Sochan -8
Tre: +7

Game Two:

Sochan: -8
Tre: +14

For those keeping score at home.

Everyone knows that if the Spurs really wanted to try to win they’d start Tre. They’re clearly looking at what they have.

It’s noteworthy that to close the game (one they really wanted to win) they both: 1) benched Jeremy in favor of Tre + the 4 starters; and then 2) shifted to Wemby at the 5 and Sochan at the 4, which I think is inevitable.

[scott]

Everyone knows that if the Spurs really wanted to try to win they’d start Tre. They’re clearly looking at what they have.

It’s noteworthy that to close the game (one they really wanted to win) they both: 1) benched Jeremy in favor of Tre + the 4 starters; and then 2) shifted to Wemby at the 5 and Sochan at the 4, which I think is inevitable.

and in reality I’m good with all of that. I just want this message board to stop pretending like Sochan is the better PG than Tre right now. It’s not even close. Just call it what it is, development for Sochan. But I also don’t want Vic’s development to be held back because we are trying to turn Sochan into a PG.

[benefactor]

:wakeup

[SpursFan86]

Rooting hard for Sochan but hard to deny how much smoother things ran with Tre tonight…will be interesting to see how long Pop keeps up the experiment.

[BacktoBasics]

and in reality I’m good with all of that. I just want this message board to stop pretending like Sochan is the better PG than Tre right now. It’s not even close. Just call it what it is, development for Sochan. But I also don’t want Vic’s development to be held back because we are trying to turn Sochan into a PG.

This is exactly what’s up. I don’t have a problem developing Jeremy in this area. It certainly won’t hurt long term. But Tre is the best PG on the team and when they eventually address the long term starting PG position it’ll be neither of those guys.

[MannyIsGod]

:wakeup

Lol Ngl tre not playing was killing me tonight until the 4th

[benefactor]

This is exactly what’s up. I don’t have a problem developing Jeremy in this area. It certainly won’t hurt long term. But Tre is the best PG on the team and when they eventually address the long term starting PG position it’ll be neither of those guys.
Agreed. Lets all not forget Wemby is not some star on his last contract or a veteran that is needing a true set up man right this minute. I personally think that Tre starting at the point and either Sochan or Keldon coming off the bench would be better, but right now I just want us all to agree that Sochan is definitely being played out of position. Seems to be a lot of posters who think he is the point guard when the evidence is glaring he is not. We aren't winning a title tomorrow. I will concede there are merits to Sochan developing in this area that will become valuable later...I just want those who think this is any good idea long term to see that the proof it isn't has been made pretty clear.

[onechance87]

Cant lie tre seems like hes earning his starting pg job back

[benefactor]

Lol Ngl tre not playing was killing me tonight until the 4th
Ive pretty much accepted Pop is going to mad scientist with this for a few minutes. We will just hope it plays out the right way. Im thinking it will

[TekXX]

Ive pretty much accepted Pop is going to mad scientist with this for a few minutes. We will just hope it plays out the right way. Im thinking it will

So you think he abandons the Sochan as point gaurd experiment? That's the only way it works out.

[poopbox]

You asked why Sochan was playing PG. Pop wants Sochan in the starting lineup, and the other four spots are taken. Thus, Sochan plays point.

Of course Tre Jones is a better point guard. Sochan isn’t really a point guard at all.

For the question of why Pop wants Sochan to start, even tho putting him at the point is rather ludicrous, the answer has to be defense. The Spurs defense was so bad last year that it set records, records of the wrong kind. Sochan is, or certainly ought to be, better for the defense than Tre.

Defensive improvement is a higher priority than the offense. That’s the view they’ve adopted, obviously. I can’t say they’re wrong, again looking at how bad the defense was last year.

This needs to be stickied at the top of every PG thread that gets made. It can't be summed up any better than this. :toast

[Mr. Body]

This forum is going to swing wildly back and forth depending on how things go game by game, isn't it?

[Obstructed_View]

Game One:

Sochan -8
Tre: +7

Game Two:

Sochan: -8
Tre: +14

For those keeping score at home.

The Matt Bonner defense.

[benefactor]

So you think he abandons the Sochan as point gaurd experiment? That's the only way it works out.
It won't happen immediately....because Pop is the kind of guy when he gets an idea he tends to roll with it for a minute longer than he should...but he will. We are all going to lose our minds being reactionary to his weird lineups throughout the season but this is the type of season that will be. Lot's of figuring out what players work in what lineup. The hope is around halfway through we have a rotation that is starting to look like what we will roll with until we get the rest of the pieces needed to make this team into a contender

[benefactor]

This forum is going to swing wildly back and forth depending on how things go game by game, isn't it?
Look at this team and the hype existing behind its soon to be franchise player. Of course it is. We are full speed ahead back into the golden years of ST

[benefactor]

Let's make something very clear...this group of players is not going to be the group of players that surround Wemby that he takes to a title. I see a few that will likely be a part of it, but there are some that will likely be moved and we will add some via the draft and free agency that will ultimately build the team that gets this franchise back to what we are all familiar with. Until then, we will do what we are all doing right now...over fucking analyzing everything and trying to feel out who is going to be a part of that and who is not. I don't know about you guys, but I am having a great fucking time so far. I feel basketball in my bones for the first time in forever. Its bringing me back to my old school days of posting up here...something I thought was done.

[rascal]

Let's make something very clear...this group of players is not going to be the group of players that surround Wemby that he takes to a title. I see a few that will likely be a part of it, but there are some that will likely be moved and we will add some via the draft and free agency that will ultimately build the team that gets this franchise back to what we are all familiar with. Until then, we will do what we are all doing right now...over fucking analyzing everything and trying to feel out who is going to be a part of that and who is not. I don't know about you guys, but I am having a great fucking time so far. I feel basketball in my bones for the first time in forever. Its bringing me back to my old school days of posting up here...something I thought was done.

Yep, every year there will be changes until the right mix is found. Too many in here talking like this is the team that will turn into a contender as is and just needs player development.

[ginobilized]

In the big picture, this pg experience will add to Sochan's development. One day we might find ourselves with a real pg that is better than Tre Jones.
Sochan will slide back to forward and be a much improved facilitator.
KJ, Sochan and Collins might be our bench in 3 yrs.

This is a development year, get used to it!

[scott]

Yep, every year there will be changes until the right mix is found. Too many in here talking like this is the team that will turn into a contender as is and just needs player development.

Finally something I can agree with you on rascal. The only certainty on the roster right now is Wemby. All other players are subject to being upgraded if the opportunity exists. Outside of Wemby, the “Core” is only the Core until someone better comes along to replace them as part of the Core.

Vassell may be the #2 right now, but he is by no means locked into that. His contract, like Johnsons, make them easily tradable if necessary.

[rascal]

Finally something I can agree with you on rascal. The only certainty on the roster right now is Wemby. All other players are subject to being upgraded if the opportunity exists. Outside of Wemby, the “Core” is only the Core until someone better comes along to replace them as part of the Core.

Vassell may be the #2 right now, but he is by no means locked into that. His contract, like Johnsons, make them easily tradable if necessary.

Vassell has a nice start to the season but I'm not sold on him being an alpha go to number 2 option on a contender.

[JPB]

Finally something I can agree with you on rascal. The only certainty on the roster right now is Wemby. All other players are subject to being upgraded if the opportunity exists. Outside of Wemby, the “Core” is only the Core until someone better comes along to replace them as part of the Core.

Vassell may be the #2 right now, but he is by no means locked into that. His contract, like Johnsons, make them easily tradable if necessary.

I believe Devin is here to stay and I'll go as far as saying Keldon too. Continuity is still important at the end of the day and you won't find available stars who could fit both on and off the court under a horse's hoof. Vassel and Johnson are still very young but already perennial 20+ scorers. Give them a couple of years with Wemby and that could be very interesting, with no ego or personality issues...I'm not totally sure about Keldon (although I have the felling he could be a long time spur) but you can stll bring some nice players through the draft or trades with your pick chest.

[scott]

I believe Devin is here to stay and I'll go as far as saying Keldon too. Continuity is still important at the end of the day and you won't find available stars who could fit both on and off the court under a horse's hoof. Vassel and Johnson are still very young but already perennial 20+ scorers. Give them a couple of years with Wemby and that could be very interesting, with no ego or personality issues...I'm not totally sure about Keldon (although I have the felling he could be a long time spur) but you can stll bring some nice players through the draft or trades with your pick chest.

They might be… they may not be. But they aren’t good enough to say they are locked in one way or another. Sean Elliott was our clear #2 guy behind DRob before he was traded for Dennis Rodman, who (right or wrong) was perceived as an upgrade at the time. Likewise, a lot of folks might have thought Derrick and DJM were our “core” to build around, and they’re both gone as well. We build around our stars, not our role players.

[Mr. Body]

They might be… they may not be. But they aren’t good enough to say they are locked in one way or another. Sean Elliott was our clear #2 guy behind DRob before he was traded for Dennis Rodman, who (right or wrong) was perceived as an upgrade at the time. Likewise, a lot of folks might have thought Derrick and DJM were our “core” to build around, and they’re both gone as well. We build around our stars, not our role players.

Dejounte and White were not on the timeline. We sure as hell could use them right now, they'd be perfect. I mean, this team with those as a backcourt would be playoff bound without doubt. Even one of them would help.

But we wouldn't be here with Wemby if we hadn't cut bait and moved them on.

It's way too early to say anything about Vassell. Last year was his 'leap' year but he got hurt. He certainly looks like a guy who's ready to take on a load. Let's not make this Spurs Talk mistake of thinking these players are close to their final form. He just turned 23 for God's sake and his improvement year-over-year is excellent. Sean Elliott wa only solidifying himself as Sean Elliott at 23, his third year, and a case can be made there's not a significant statistical difference between them at that age. Sean wasn't even a three point shooter for another three seasons and Devin is more productive scoringwise.

[RC_Drunkford]

if you ask me Vassell is a legit #2 and I been saying this for a while. His weakness was mainly that he didn't attempt a lot of shots at the rim and wasn't drawing enough fouls. You can clearly see that he has worked on that. Iceman told him "you gotta get to the line more often, that's an easy extra 5 points". The main questionmarks for this team are starting C and PG, but that's what this year is for. To figure out what type of players you need at these positions.

[exstatic]

if you ask me Vassell is a legit #2 and I been saying this for a while. His weakness was mainly that he didn't attempt a lot of shots at the rim and wasn't drawing enough fouls. You can clearly see that he has worked on that. Iceman told him "you gotta get to the line more often, that's an easy extra 5 points". The main questionmarks for this team are starting C and PG, but that's what this year is for. To figure out what type of players you need at these positions.

Yeah,teally the only knock on Vassell was his low FT att rate, but he went to the line 11 times last night.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Yep, every year there will be changes until the right mix is found. Too many in here talking like this is the team that will turn into a contender as is and just needs player development.

Tre Jones is better for developing players like Wemby faster because he is an actual PG that can run an offense and give the ball to Wemby in the right spots... Sohan at this point simply don't have the instincts... It's like those Jones brothers were born to play PG... both are always at the top in ast/to ratio...

I know ppl are intrigued with Sohan's size, but he constantly gets beat by PGs on defense, and doesn't have great instincts as a PG... so why slow down Wembys development in order to experiment with Sohan playing out of position? I like Sohan, but at this point it may be better if he plays PG off the bench... Shit if Manu can come off the bench for the betterment of the team, so can he

[The Truth #6]

What if it's actually the other way around? What if Wemby is already really good and doesn't need Tre Jones on the court for him to be a good player? Maybe Sochan (and Keldon) will improve by playing next to Wemby and that's why they should play together? And sticking Sochan and/or Keldon on the bench will only slow down their needed growth as players. Lots of ways to spin this. For example, Tre Jones perhaps is playing better because he's stuck behind Sochan and is working harder to prove himself.

[BackHome]

I like Sochan I hope that him playing PG will help his game in the long run but I just can't see him playing PG when we contending? I will be very happy if I have to eat some Crow but it's just hard for me to see him running a team full time. As far as the future well one thing is no short players we need guys who can get us some rebounds because this team is not good so far in that area.

So for sure we need a PG in this case I don't mind getting a two guard PG/SG someone who has good handles and likes to dish can play defense and as I said can rebound and the 3 ball is always needed. One thing for me is that would give us a legit backup to Vassell if he was ever injured we could just move him over and Sochan can take over as needed. The second thing is we need a bigger big I like Collins I just think he is more of a traditional PF vs. C

I agree we got two players who are legit we definitely need a starting PG and a starting C and I am pretty confident we can get one in the next draft. If you look at last years draft they had Duren go at 13 and Mark Williams go at 15 so with either our pick or hopefully the Raptors pick we can get at least one more stud in the rotation.

Either way Rome was created in a day and this team is not going to go from 1st pick to playing in the finals this year we still need more talent and that is just the truth. So as I always say enjoy watching Wemby play and grow every season people don't realize how lucky we are.

[Chinook]

What if it's actually the other way around? What if Wemby is already really good and doesn't need Tre Jones on the court for him to be a good player? Maybe Sochan (and Keldon) will improve by playing next to Wemby and that's why they should play together? And sticking Sochan and/or Keldon on the bench will only slow down their needed growth as players. Lots of ways to spin this. For example, Tre Jones perhaps is playing better because he's stuck behind Sochan and is working harder to prove himself.

Jones was the best defensive player on the team last year as the unambiguous starter (which is why it's weird that people keep calling him a defensive liability or assuming starting Sochan and Johnson improves the defense). I totally believe Wemby makes his life easier, but it's also pretty clear that Wemby isn't "already good" in the sense that he doesn't need to develop in a system that helps him get the ball and has things he needs to learn to be more consistently effective. By far the most important thing for Wemby is getting the ball in advantage situations where he doesn't have to fight to score against too stiff of a defense. If Jones does that then he's better for Wemby. Maybe eventually Wemby will be developed to the point where he can focus on making everyone better. But at this point, Pop should be focusing on functional units where guys can play to their strengths. Sochan and/or Johnson should still get plenty of time playing with Wemby considering how Vic has to sub out early and play half his minutes with the second unit.

I'm not married to the idea of Pop changing his starting lineup. As I've said, there are clever ways to use Sochan at PG that Jones can't replicate. But it's on Pop to actually employ those ways, and I doubt he's going to. He seems much more keen of the idea of multiple mediocre ball-handlers taking turns cutting off drives and hoping someone hits a three than having a rigid structure to make the team has the basics down. It'll be interesting to see if the Spurs play a different kind of offense when Jones if playing than Sochan. So far we've seen that Jones does different things, but I'm talking in terms of what sort of plays they call. We won't know that until we get more data.

[RC_Drunkford]

As I've said, there are clever ways to use Sochan at PG that Jones can't replicate. But it's on Pop to actually employ those ways, and I doubt he's going to. He seems much more keen of the idea of multiple mediocre ball-handlers taking turns cutting off drives and hoping someone hits a three than having a rigid structure to make the team has the basics down.

this is what's mind boggling to me. It's like "hey figure it out" type of offense instead of actual plays drawn up

[The Truth #6]

Pop is normally stifling in his control over the team, so it seems he's trying a different approach so as not to alienate his new star. The irony may be that VW wants to be told what do, having heard stories from Parker, and how it made him a better player. But just speculating.

[TD 21]

Jones was the best defensive player on the team last year as the unambiguous starter (which is why it's weird that people keep calling him a defensive liability or assuming starting Sochan and Johnson improves the defense).

Maybe in a relative sense, but as a small guard, Jones will always be a physical liability.

That's why on the Mavericks leaked scouting report it said "go at him", code for whoever he's guarding to screen for Doncic until they get the switch.

[R. DeMurre]

I can see Tre being with the Spurs for a long time-- he fits the role of back up PG really well, being steady with a great assist to turnover ratio, and being in that sweet spot where he's good enough to provide some quality minutes but not good enough to demand a giant salary. Every team needs a few of those guys. Osman is another one that fits that bill. He can be the 8th man on a championship team.

[Chinook]

Maybe in a relative sense, but as a small guard, Jones will always be a physical liability.

That's why on the Mavericks leaked scouting report it said "go at him", code for whoever he's guarding to screen for Doncic until they get the switch.

Yes, "old-school" coaches tend to think that way, and it doesn't work. That's part of the reason why the Spurs were more successful on defense with Jones in there. His defensive acumen is far beyond the other players on the team, which means he can use positioning to cover up his size. Teams starting smaller guards win titles all the time. Clearly, it's not actually a liability. It's like how Parker wasn't actually a liability on defense, but coaches kept tricking themselves into going at him without success. Having a bunch of mid-sized players has never been the key to success on defense. Having one of two guys who can cross guard for you? Sure. But it's important to have guys who can guard at all three levels, rim protection and a coaching scheme that gets guys to work together to force the offense into bad shots and secure the board.

If Pop looked at last season's abysmal performance and thought, "Tre starting is the problem", he's completely lost the plot. The problem has been he and his staff have develop guys to be offense-first players at the expense of learning defense while also not emphasizing shooting to the point where he always wants at least one bad-defense shooter in the rotation. It's the same reason why Sochan, instead of focusing on improving a defensive game that showed potential last year but wasn't yet up to snuff, is playing a new position where he's dribble around the court. It's why he's trying to slip more small-shooters on the fringes of the roster. He won't play Jones but he would play Forbes. There's not a consistent thought process to justify that.

[Brazil]

Pop is normally stifling in his control over the team, so it seems he's trying a different approach so as not to alienate his new star. The irony may be that VW wants to be told what do, having heard stories from Parker, and how it made him a better player. But just speculating.

Tony has been quite vocal indeed about the fact that Victor is very coachable, he receives ver well feedbacks and is eager to be challenged.

[TD 21]

Yes, "old-school" coaches tend to think that way, and it doesn't work. That's part of the reason why the Spurs were more successful on defense with Jones in there. His defensive acumen is far beyond the other players on the team, which means he can use positioning to cover up his size. Teams starting smaller guards win titles all the time. Clearly, it's not actually a liability. It's like how Parker wasn't actually a liability on defense, but coaches kept tricking themselves into going at him without success. Having a bunch of mid-sized players has never been the key to success on defense. Having one of two guys who can cross guard for you? Sure. But it's important to have guys who can guard at all three levels, rim protection and a coaching scheme that gets guys to work together to force the offense into bad shots and secure the board.

Actually, it's very new school and it's become increasingly difficult to play small guards in the playoffs unless they're superstars or stars offensively.

Obviously, this team is nowhere near the point of having to concern themselves with that though, but "positioning" can't always cover up for size. If Jones gets switched onto a Doncic, for example, the Spurs defense will be compromised.

Parker always had arguably the GOAT anchor/team defender behind him in Duncan, an underrated team defender in Ginobili and other all time - very good defenders like Robinson, Bowen, Scumbag, Green and Splitter at various points.

[KobesAchilles]

Vassell is really our hope to be the second star. KJ I don’t think has a role as a starter. He should be a bench player. Sochan needs to develop a corner 3 to remain a starter with Wemby. I’m really impressed with Vassell though in his ability to create his own shots and make tough shots. If he attacks the paint like he has been this year then the sky is the limit for him as a 2 guy. I guess his next development would be creating for others but I would like seeing that in about 2 years when he has his go tos down

[exstatic]

Vassell is really our hope to be the second star. KJ I don’t think has a role as a starter. He should be a bench player. Sochan needs to develop a corner 3 to remain a starter with Wemby. I’m really impressed with Vassell though in his ability to create his own shots and make tough shots. If he attacks the paint like he has been this year then the sky is the limit for him as a 2 guy. I guess his next development would be creating for others but I would like seeing that in about 2 years when he has his go tos down

Don’t sleep on Malaki. He was at second year Vassell level of finding holes in the defense to shoot from last year as a rookie. His FTs and college numbers say he’s going to be a 40% 3pt shooter in the NBA eventually.

[KobesAchilles]

Don’t sleep on Malaki. He was at second year Vassell level of finding holes in the defense to shoot from last year as a rookie. His FTs and college numbers say he’s going to be a 40% 3pt shooter in the NBA eventually.
He needs smarts more than anything. Sometimes he does things where I wonder if he has every played basketball before :lol
but his shooting like you said should round into form. I hope he turns into a gunner

[RC_Drunkford]

Branham will turn it on after 25-30 games. It was like that in college, last season and I assume he'll make the leap this season as well once he's comfortable.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Branham will turn it on after 25-30 games. It was like that in college, last season and I assume he'll make the leap this season as well once he's comfortable.

Branham just needs the greenlight to shoot without looking over his shoulder if he has a 3/10 night.

Shooters have to be given room to shoot and dude is a natural scorer despite the lack of athleticism.

[Chinook]

Actually, it's very new school and it's become increasingly difficult to play small guards in the playoffs unless they're superstars or stars offensively.

Eh, this conversation has the potential to get into the weeds about where the cut off is for a small guard and a star. Like is Marcus Smart a small guard? Was Kyle Lowry a "star" in 2023? The truth is that every recent Finals matchup saw small guards in the rotation, and depending on the cut-off is at least one of the competing teams each year a small-guard PG who wasn't an offensive star. It doesn't seem that an admittedly cursory look at the data actually bears out that small guards have becoming particularly unplayable by winning teams. Insofar as it's a "new" thing, it's such as a buzzword, just like "positionless basketball", "AI" "block chain" and the like. In the sense I meant it, focusing on mismatches and trying to isolate weak defenders is extremely old school.


Obviously, this team is nowhere near the point of having to concern themselves with that though, but "positioning" can't always cover up for size. If Jones gets switched onto a Doncic, for example, the Spurs defense will be compromised.

You can account for a guy not having a favorable switch. If anything, if the smaller guy is a good defender, then he's going to take away the things he can take away, and the help will be there for the things he can't. That's far easier than putting a guy like Sochan on him and losing the possession anyway. Mismatches have been happening forever now. I assume you'd always want to know your guy can hold up in that situation. But it's also been established long enough to know size only has so much effect on a man's ability to score. There's a reason why the scoring leaderboard isn't filled with guys who are big for their position. I don't even know if it's been established that Doncic scores more easily on smaller players.


Parker always had arguably the GOAT anchor/team defender behind him in Duncan, an underrated team defender in Ginobili and other all time - very good defenders like Robinson, Bowen, Scumbag, Green and Splitter at various points.

A) Jones has a guy with DPOY potential behind him. If the rest of the Spurs are worse defenders despite them being taller, that's not a reason to stop playing him. It's a sign that the wing defense is not sufficient.
b) Yet, Parker himself held up well despite looking like he was the failure point of the lineup. That he potentially was the worst defender on the floor doesn't negate that. Jones isn't the worst defender on the floor, so it teams keep testing one of the better defenders on the team instead of testing the worse ones, that doesn't seem like a bad thing.

[spurraider21]

Branham needs something other than junk game. He only looks comfortable dribbling into a midrange pullup

his point of attack defense has looked better to my eye. Haven’t paid much attention to him as an off ball defender though

[KobesAchilles]

Can we please stop playing Sochan as PG? He’s not good at it. It’s not his fault. And even 82 games from now he won’t be good at it. Can we please make him a secondary creator instead of the initial one? It’s painful to watch

[Obstructed_View]

Can we please stop playing Sochan as PG? He’s not good at it. It’s not his fault. And even 82 games from now he won’t be good at it. Can we please make him a secondary creator instead of the initial one? It’s painful to watch
Shut up. Jesus Christ.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Can we please stop playing Sochan as PG? He’s not good at it. It’s not his fault. And even 82 games from now he won’t be good at it. Can we please make him a secondary creator instead of the initial one? It’s painful to watch

Seriously

[KobesAchilles]

Shut up. Jesus Christ.
I’m not talking. So technically I’m not making a sound. It’s your own voice reading that you are telling to shut up. It’s weird stuff. Get some help.

also you have an unobstructed view of how shitty Sochan is at point and how right I am about it. That’s what’s really angering you. In January you will be even more annoyed when Sochan is benched.

[TD 21]

Eh, this conversation has the potential to get into the weeds about where the cut off is for a small guard and a star. Like is Marcus Smart a small guard? Was Kyle Lowry a "star" in 2023? The truth is that every recent Finals matchup saw small guards in the rotation, and depending on the cut-off is at least one of the competing teams each year a small-guard PG who wasn't an offensive star.

I'll answer the examples literally to provide context: Smart is not a small guard. Small doesn't necessarily equal short, it's more so physically weak/lacking switch ability. Lowry wasn't even close to a star in '23, but he's the rare short guard stout enough to fit the Smart description.

You can get by with one in the rotation, but if they're a non superstar/star, usually their role ends up diminished as the series goes on.


You can account for a guy not having a favorable switch. If anything, if the smaller guy is a good defender, then he's going to take away the things he can take away, and the help will be there for the things he can't.

Emergency (on the catch) help, especially with a tall, elite passer, is exactly what I said: Virtually guaranteed to end in a high quality look.


Jones isn't the worst defender on the floor, so it teams keep testing one of the better defenders on the team instead of testing the worse ones, that doesn't seem like a bad thing.

It'll be a bad thing if it's a sizable p-n-r creator, but I'm not advocating they stop playing Jones. I'm just saying, given the potential path to championship contention down the line, if the eventual PG is a small guard, they need to be an offensive superstar/star and I believe the front office will have the same mindset.

[JeffDuncan]

Can we please stop playing Sochan as PG? He’s not good at it. It’s not his fault. And even 82 games from now he won’t be good at it. Can we please make him a secondary creator instead of the initial one? It’s painful to watch


Sochan is penciled in as the point guard, but there’s not any serious effort to use him as an actual point guard. He dribbles the ball up, sometimes, and immediately passes. No PG development is going on with him.

Why the heck would you want Sochan as a “secondary creator” whatever that is? What’s wrong with him being a forward? Is “forward” not pompously rhetorical enough?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol I hope you guys have more patience with your children.

[spursparker9]

8) Wembanyama looks better playing next to Tre Jones — a pure point guard — than Jeremy Sochan, who is learning on the job. In Sunday's
game, when Wembanyama was -14 on the night, but he was +7 in the minutes with Young (boosted by a +8 early in the fourth quarter against the Clippers reserves at the start of garbage time).

It's easy to see why Popovich wants to give Sochan a chance to learn the point guard role and see if he can do it — his size and athleticism would make him a force — but there is a long way for Sochan to go and are moments you can feel Wembanyama's frustration.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ten-victor-wembanyama-observations-quotes-051629859.html

[rascal]

:lol I hope you guys have more patience with your children.

Don't have children

[rascal]

8) Wembanyama looks better playing next to Tre Jones — a pure point guard — than Jeremy Sochan, who is learning on the job. In Sunday's
game, when Wembanyama was -14 on the night, but he was +7 in the minutes with Young (boosted by a +8 early in the fourth quarter against the Clippers reserves at the start of garbage time).

It's easy to see why Popovich wants to give Sochan a chance to learn the point guard role and see if he can do it — his size and athleticism would make him a force — but there is a long way for Sochan to go and are moments you can feel Wembanyama's frustration.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ten-victor-wembanyama-observations-quotes-051629859.html

He doesn't have the pg skills or even a pg's athleticism.

[Fireball]

I really doubt Jeremy is having fun tbh

[z0sa]

Starting to tentatively agree with OP’s premise.

It’s not that Jeremy couldn’t do it, or that our defense does not benefit from it. Is it the right coaching decision to get us — particularly Wemby - off to a good start in games?

That said, no one played well tonight. It was sloppy on all ends, so maybe this game is mostly an INC grade on the Sochan 1 experiment.

[rascal]

Sochan is not agile enough or shoot well enough to be pg.

He needs to be traded instead of trying to fit him into a position that's not suited to his style of play.

Sochan is best at pf and if the Spurs want to play Wemby there that leaves Sochan playing positions that aren't best for him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Don't have children

Obviously.

[KingKev]

Either way we aren’t competing for much this year. Tre Jones short term is absolutely the answer. Longer term this is all probably a rounding error in a meaningless season.

Sochan at point probably nets us a top 5 pick again. Just don’t want to frustrate Wemby out the gate but it is clear they are attempting to play the long game best they think. That is the real debate here.

[rascal]

Either way we aren’t competing for much this year. Tre Jones short term is absolutely the answer. Longer term this is all probably a rounding error in a meaningless season.

Sochan at point probably nets us a top 5 pick again. Just don’t want to frustrate Wemby out the gate but it is clear they are attempting to play the long game best they think. That is the real debate here.

A top 5 pick and a top pg prospect would be a win for the long game.

[Truckules]

A top 5 pick and a top pg prospect would be a win for the long game.

Not if it alienates the future of the franchise. Maybe Wemby is more patient than I think, but I'd be frustrated if my coaches were jeopardizing my development as the star of the team to develop someone else into a role they're clearly not suited for.

[Russo21]

Sochan is not agile enough or shoot well enough to be pg.

He needs to be traded instead of trying to fit him into a position that's not suited to his style of play.

Sochan is best at pf and if the Spurs want to play Wemby there that leaves Sochan playing positions that aren't best for him.

And can't pass well enough, can't dribble well enough. There's not much he's good at. Needs to be traded along with KJ who is annoying as f

[spurraider21]

No playmaking. No shot creation. No rebounding. No defensive impact.

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C4D12AQFB2dOqrFQtkg/article-cover_image-shrink_600_2000/0/1520155298935?e=2147483647&v=beta&t=AYpmJa2gxktD4lWVCyTqxAidMNgOMfAkmMLyHFTbpKY

[DJR210]

I've seen enough of the experiment

[SayTown]

The Tank PT 2

[Kawhi Duncan]

Sochan is not agile enough or shoot well enough to be pg.

He needs to be traded instead of trying to fit him into a position that's not suited to his style of play.

Sochan is best at pf and if the Spurs want to play Wemby there that leaves Sochan playing positions that aren't best for him.

He can't even dribble penetrate... An extremely KEY thing any PG needs to do to break down the offense... No one in our starting 5 is very good at that... They're all more secondary penetrators