The thing that makes me nervous about criticizing Pop when it comes to Wemby's development......

[Kawhi Duncan]

Is that Pop has this thing about him where he doubles down on his bad decisions because his ego won't allow him to acknowledge someone else's criticism was correct... He still wants to seem like a basketball genius, and that there's some hidden thing that no one else can see, but will eventually see...

So I fear that if the media constantly talks about how Sohan isn't a PG, and that Wemby needs to play more and have an offense that is centered around him, Pop will double down on forcing Sohan as PG, and running a glorified pick up game at the expense of Wemby's development and joy for playing with the Spurs...

Make no mistake... Wemby is competitive and DEFINITELY wants to win ROY... and if he feels like everything is working against him here, he is gonna be OUT as soon as he gets the chance... All because of Pop's ego

[mo7888]

Is that Pop has this thing about him where he doubles down on his bad decisions because his ego won't allow him to acknowledge someone else's criticism was correct... He still wants to seem like a basketball genius, and that there's some hidden thing that no one else can see, but will eventually see...

So I fear that if the media constantly talks about how Sohan isn't a PG, and that Wemby needs to play more and have an offense that is centered around him, Pop will double down on forcing Sohan as PG, and running a glorified pick up game at the expense of Wemby's development and joy for playing with the Spurs...

Make no mistake... Wemby is competitive and DEFINITELY wants to win ROY... and if he feels like everything is working against him here, he is gonna be OUT as soon as he gets the chance... All because of Pop's ego

I think it comes down to (and I know everyone hates to think about this) if we are really trying to win this year or just experiment hoping for another high pick. A Tyrese Proctor would look good in the SL and if the Toronto pick conveys we'd have a shot at a real 3 so we could move KJ to the bench.

[tbdog]

3 games in.

[The Truth #6]

I think it comes down to (and I know everyone hates to think about this) if we are really trying to win this year or just experiment hoping for another high pick. A Tyrese Proctor would look good in the SL and if the Toronto pick conveys we'd have a shot at a real 3 so we could move KJ to the bench.

Before Victor exploded in preseason, I was convinced that pop was doing another clever manipulation to get another high draft pick. Focusing on defense defense, while letting the offense go to s***. I'm sort of back to that point now that the regular season has started. They spent so much time last year working on ball movement and offense as a priority, it seems weird that they're basically doing pickup basketball now. Now it could be that pop is more like a granddad and just wants to give Victor his ice cream, but I assume pop knows exactly what he's doing, has a plan. And so yeah, I'm back to thinking we're just okay getting back in the lottery.

[Kawhi Duncan]

I think it comes down to (and I know everyone hates to think about this) if we are really trying to win this year or just experiment hoping for another high pick. A Tyrese Proctor would look good in the SL and if the Toronto pick conveys we'd have a shot at a real 3 so we could move KJ to the bench.

The problem with experimenting is that if you don't clearly make things resolve around Wemby to where he has a clear path of growth and doesn't look like a bust out there, we are gonna have a disgruntled guy... You can experiment while also making an offense that revolves around him... Or at the very least heavily incorporates him where teammates actually pass him the ball

[Kawhi Duncan]

Before Victor exploded in preseason, I was convinced that pop was doing another clever manipulation to get another high draft pick. Focusing on defense defense, while letting the offense go to s***. I'm sort of back to that point now that the regular season has started. They spent so much time last year working on ball movement and offense as a priority, it seems weird that they're basically doing pickup basketball now. Now it could be that pop is more like a granddad and just wants to give Victor his ice cream, but I assume pop knows exactly what he's doing, has a plan. And so yeah, I'm back to thinking we're just okay getting back in the lottery.

At the expense of Wemby's happiness and growth? You don't see how that can backfire? These dudes want to look good out there... And if they feel like their coaches and teammates aren't putting him in a position to be great, they're gonna leave... Tim Duncan spoiled us into thinking it's normal for players to just ride with whatever a coach does...I remember before Kawhi left, we always used to talk about how Pop would take him out of games where he is going nuts... And because Kawhi was quiet, we assumed he wasn't bothered by this... These guys are competitive and wanna have a certain reputation

[couchman]

Too early in the season for all of these people making big pronouncements.
At this point last year Keldon was a better player than Kawhi and the Spurs looked like a playoff team.
Everyone calm your tits and let this play out a little bit.

[exstatic]

Is that Pop has this thing about him where he doubles down on his bad decisions because his ego won't allow him to acknowledge someone else's criticism was correct... He still wants to seem like a basketball genius, and that there's some hidden thing that no one else can see, but will eventually see...

So I fear that if the media constantly talks about how Sohan isn't a PG, and that Wemby needs to play more and have an offense that is centered around him, Pop will double down on forcing Sohan as PG, and running a glorified pick up game at the expense of Wemby's development and joy for playing with the Spurs...

Make no mistake... Wemby is competitive and DEFINITELY wants to win ROY... and if he feels like everything is working against him here, he is gonna be OUT as soon as he gets the chance... All because of Pop's ego

It’s funny that you think Pop GAF about the media, or cares what they say. You, and about 10 other retards here are the only ones on the planet who don’t understand that this is a mulligan season.

[Chinook]

What people really don't want to think about is how much the issues could be Victor's team and Pop clashing. Wemby isn't Duncan. He's not an island kid with a semi-paternal relationship with his coach which allows him to trust the coaching he gets. Victor was already a corporation long before he was drafted. He has people who want things from him. He has his own idea of where he wants his game to go. The Spurs are a means to get there. They might be his only NBA team if things go well, but he will leave if he doesn't think he's in the best position to succeed. 100 percent Wemby would ask for a trade. Not this year, but early in that second contract. I think Pop's also trying to make Wemby happy by giving him opportunities that he (Pop) probably knows aren't really good for him. Wemby wants to be KD, and even though he should be closer to Dirk, Pop's gonna give him that chance and hope he can use Wemby's struggles to encourage growth in the right direction. This is what dealing with high picks actually means, and it's probably time for the Spurs to get used to it if their plan is to get another such pick next summer. While Kawhi was worse than average, his situation isn't that far off how it is to deal with NBA stars.

[Atl Spur]

Check back in at 35-45 games from now.

[MultiTroll]

Tim Duncan spoiled us into thinking it's normal for players to just ride with whatever a coach does...


What people really don't want to think about is how much the issues could be Victor's team and Pop clashing. Wemby isn't Duncan. He's not an island kid with a semi-paternal relationship with his coach which allows him to trust the coaching he gets. Victor was already a corporation long before he was drafted. He has people who want things from him. He has his own idea of where he wants his game to go. The Spurs are a means to get there. They might be his only NBA team if things go well, but he will leave if he doesn't think he's in the best position to succeed. 100 percent Wemby would ask for a trade. Not this year, but early in that second contract..
Bears repeating that Timmy Dunks interviewed with Orlando and seemingly 100 legit sources said it was Doc Rivers refusal to let Mrs. Duncan+ ride on the team plane that was the deal breaker. Tim absolutely was willing to join the Magic at that time.

Sniffer lore has since been woven that it was an unbreakable bond between Tim and Popped that kept him in San Antone.

We're all glad he stayed here and won 5 Chips, even if 3 more were robbed by Popped.

And absolutely Tim had an affection for Pop that lasted his whole time as a Spur.

[The Truth #6]

Yeah, it's too soon to say anything conclusively but there are hints. I'm curious to see how the two factors of Pop letting VW do what he wants to do with VW also wanting to win now end up aligning, or not.

[MultiTroll]

Is that Pop has this thing about him where he doubles down on his bad decisions because his ego won't allow him to acknowledge someone else's criticism was correct... He still wants to seem like a basketball genius, and that there's some hidden thing that no one else can see, but will eventually see...

So I fear that if the media constantly talks about how Sohan isn't a PG, and that Wemby needs to play more and have an offense that is centered around him, Pop will double down on forcing Sohan as PG, and running a glorified pick up game at the expense of Wemby's development and joy for playing with the Spurs...

Make no mistake... Wemby is competitive and DEFINITELY wants to win ROY... and if he feels like everything is working against him here, he is gonna be OUT as soon as he gets the chance... All because of Pop's ego
Rack it.

And completely ignore Sniffing like this:


It’s funny that you think Pop GAF about the media, or cares what they say. You, and about 10 other retards here are the only ones on the planet who don’t understand that this is a mulligan season.

[MultiTroll]

Yeah, it's too soon to say anything conclusively but there are hints. I'm curious to see how the two factors of Pop letting VW do what he wants to do with VW also wanting to win now end up aligning, or not.
But it's not to early to see if Pop will adjust such nonsense as Wembys teamates freezing him out.

That shit should have been corrected immediately.

[Chinook]

Bears repeating that Timmy Dunks interviewed with Orlando and seemingly 100 legit sources said it was Doc Rivers refusal to let Mrs. Duncan+ ride on the team plane that was the deal breaker. Tim absolutely was willing to join the Magic at that time.

Sniffer lore has since been woven that it was an unbreakable bond between Tim and Popped that kept him in San Antone.

We're all glad he stayed here and won 5 Chips, even if 3 more were robbed by Popped.

And absolutely Tim had an affection for Pop that lasted his whole time as a Spur.

I think there are probably elements of that story that are mischaracterized. Like just because Tim ended the idea of going to ORL after Doc refused to let Amy fly doesn't mean that if he had allowed it Tim would've gone to the Magic. It was a necessary but possibly not sufficient condition. It's sort of how the DPE was a necessary condition of Leonard staying in SA but not a sufficient condition. On one hand you can say the Spurs' refusal to fully max Kawhi led to him demanding out, and some folks do argue that. But it's also clear Kawhi was leaving anyway.

Regardless, I was talking more in the sense that top picks are treated like businesses as much as actual prospects. Top guys usually come in with an entourage and cachet they aren't afraid to use to meet their interests. After being burned by LMA and Kawhi, Pop seems way more apt to bend than ever. We sort of saw this with DeRozan having seemingly no accountability to fix his obvious flaws. We might be seeing it as an element for why every prospect seems to want to be a star rather than focusing on developing legit NBA skills. Who knows? I'm just saying that Victor wants to play a certain way, and if he's not playing that way, he's already shown he'll look for a better situation. Pop has to start narrowing Wemby's on-court options to put him in good situations, but it's also possible that Pop and Wemby disagree on what those positions are, which is messing up the team dynamic.

[BacktoBasics]

3 games in.

I'm about to start a falling earth thread. Most of this stuff will age badly as soon as 6 months down the road.

[Spurs Homer]

Trade wemby in 5,4,3….


lololol

[BacktoBasics]

I think there are probably elements of that story that are mischaracterized. Like just because Tim ended the idea of going to ORL after Doc refused to let Amy fly doesn't mean that if he had allowed it Tim would've gone to the Magic. It was a necessary but possibly not sufficient condition. It's sort of how the DPE was a necessary condition of Leonard staying in SA but not a sufficient condition. On one hand you can say the Spurs' refusal to fully max Kawhi led to him demanding out, and some folks do argue that. But it's also clear Kawhi was leaving anyway.

Regardless, I was talking more in the sense that top picks are treated like businesses as much as actual prospects. Top guys usually come in with an entourage and cachet they aren't afraid to use to meet their interests. After being burned by LMA and Kawhi, Pop seems way more apt to bend than ever. We sort of saw this with DeRozan having seemingly no accountability to fix his obvious flaws. We might be seeing it as an element for why every prospect seems to want to be a star rather than focusing on developing legit NBA skills. Who knows? I'm just saying that Victor wants to play a certain way, and if he's not playing that way, he's already shown he'll look for a better situation. Pop has to start narrowing Wemby's on-court options to put him in good situations, but it's also possible that Pop and Wemby disagree on what those positions are, which is messing up the team dynamic.It's also possible that some of those weaker areas could be improved upon to at least make them more manageable. Sometimes its just the player needing to see for himself that the things he did elsewhere won't fly here.

Wemby over dribbling into traffic is one in my mind. He needs to do it less but its not inconceivable that if he continues to do it and Pop allows it that he could improve that area enough that he might be able to get himself out of trouble from time to time. The argument here has always been that Pop has the leash too tight and doesn't let guys play free and develop... now that they're seeing all this latitude the collective armchair QB's want it reigned in. This group isn't happy unless they're miserable.

[mo7888]

The problem with experimenting is that if you don't clearly make things resolve around Wemby to where he has a clear path of growth and doesn't look like a bust out there, we are gonna have a disgruntled guy... You can experiment while also making an offense that revolves around him... Or at the very least heavily incorporates him where teammates actually pass him the ball

I don't disagree with that and i expect we'll see that at some point this season..

[z0sa]

This is by far Pop's biggest challenge in his career. Wemby underachieving would be squarely placed upon his shoulders, regardless of whether it's truly his fault or not.

Furthermore, Wemby underachieving would likely see the youngun bolt. That would be lame and cost the Spurs about 20 years of massive profits, so the pressure (for the first time since Timmy's rookie year, IIRC) will be on from the ownership side as well if things go south too long.

Not saying Pop would get fired or anything, just to be clear. Just that this is a massive challenge despite Wemby's (thus far) lack of ego and eagerness to learn/win.

[Chinook]

One of the things that can get lost in the shuffle for a team like the Spurs and a coach like Pop is how long sections of the team's timeline are. The Spurs are into their 10th season since winning a title. That's longer than most coaching careers. I think with the exception of Kerr and Spo, none of the other championship coaches from that area are still with their team and both of those guys have won or at least made multiple Finals since then. The Spurs have been in the "every prospects should be a point-guard" phase for a whole decade now. What folks complained about Pop doing back then doesn't matter. It may as well have been a different team. Just as it's possible that he was right then and right now despite taking different approaches in each situation, the criticism could've been justified then and justified now despite the criticisms potentially conflicting.

They're just entirely different situations. Giving a guy a chance to make plays on an older contending team and lacking structure on a young team that hasn't seen success since before any of the main guys were even in the league is basically night and day. The former situation was going to have natural barriers due to the rest of the guys on the team knowing their roles and exuding more clout on the court. I don't think it'd've been hard to get Branham to find Prime Duncan in the post or have Keldon defer to Prime Manu or Tony. It's completely different to expect them to naturally defer to a 19-year-old Wemby who doesn't seem to know how to get open and is likely to take an unideal shot or turn it over trying to be flashy. For the good of the team, they need to defer more. But they've been conditioned to try to be the man due to the monoculture developmental system of the Spurs, and when nothing on offense seems to be working but individual effort, it's easy to see why they often fall back into attempted hero-ball.

[Kawhi Duncan]

3 games in.

We have seen Pop stick with an obviously bad decision for multiple seasons...

[Chinook]

To be clear: It's going to be pretty hard for Wemby to not win ROY or at least be a top-three rookie. He's too good, and things like turnovers and efficiency are understood to not really matter for rookies. If there are no changes, he's still going to average close to 20/8/3/2/1, I'm guessing. The Spurs will get their marketing, and Wemby will get his accolades. The question is if that's the best route to take for everyone involved. If this year of loose reins is truly what Wemby needs to trust Pop's coaching, then it is worth it. If the difficulty the team faces hurt Wemby's trust in the organization, it's obviously not worth. It's a long season. No year-long trends can be gleaned now. Everyone is going to continue to transform this year, and we might see sizeable roster moves on top of that. There's no reason to freak out about any of this stuff. But there are points I find interesting to speculate on.

[Kawhi Duncan]

What people really don't want to think about is how much the issues could be Victor's team and Pop clashing. Wemby isn't Duncan. He's not an island kid with a semi-paternal relationship with his coach which allows him to trust the coaching he gets. Victor was already a corporation long before he was drafted. He has people who want things from him. He has his own idea of where he wants his game to go. The Spurs are a means to get there. They might be his only NBA team if things go well, but he will leave if he doesn't think he's in the best position to succeed. 100 percent Wemby would ask for a trade. Not this year, but early in that second contract. I think Pop's also trying to make Wemby happy by giving him opportunities that he (Pop) probably knows aren't really good for him. Wemby wants to be KD, and even though he should be closer to Dirk, Pop's gonna give him that chance and hope he can use Wemby's struggles to encourage growth in the right direction. This is what dealing with high picks actually means, and it's probably time for the Spurs to get used to it if their plan is to get another such pick next summer. While Kawhi was worse than average, his situation isn't that far off how it is to deal with NBA stars.

But Pop isn't tho... Pop isn't running anything through him... U mean to tell me if KD came to the Spurs, pop wouldn't design an offense around his strengths? Because that's what's happening here... Nothing is designed for Wemby... They're playing pickup ball without a PG

[Kawhi Duncan]

It's also possible that some of those weaker areas could be improved upon to at least make them more manageable. Sometimes its just the player needing to see for himself that the things he did elsewhere won't fly here.

Wemby over dribbling into traffic is one in my mind. He needs to do it less but its not inconceivable that if he continues to do it and Pop allows it that he could improve that area enough that he might be able to get himself out of trouble from time to time. The argument here has always been that Pop has the leash too tight and doesn't let guys play free and develop... now that they're seeing all this latitude the collective armchair QB's want it reigned in. This group isn't happy unless they're miserable.

No one wants it reigned in (at least not me)... I want the offense to be structured around him, and I want an actual PG to run the offense to help facilitate his growth... That's not a crazy ask

[Chinook]

But Pop isn't tho... Pop isn't running anything through him... U mean to tell me if KD came to the Spurs, pop wouldn't design an offense around his strengths? Because that's what's happening here... Nothing is designed for Wemby... They're playing pickup ball without a PG

I'm not going to defend Pop's coaching too much, because I've had problems with how loose it's become for years now. But it's hard to "run things for Wemby" if Wemby doesn't feel like he can be pigeon-holed into a guy who "has things run for him". In order for actions to open things up for Victor, he has to do his part in those actions. That means he can't be running around calling for the ball all the time. That means when he gets the ball in an unideal situation, he should look to pass it out to get some action going rather than trying to go one-on-one. I get some fans really like the idea of throwing him the ball all the time and making everything go through him. But he's not that guy right now. He's not an NBA-level scorer, especially not to an elite extent. I'd much rather them limit him to playing to his strengths so those can get established, then use those established strengths to both open opportunities for him to show other things and for his teammates to get good shots. Right now, Victor getting the ball anywhere other than right at the rim really isn't scary for opposing defenses, and with three-second calls combined with Wemby's inability to hold a seal, he can't consistently get to the paint enough to worry defenses.

[Leetonidas]

Some of y'all need to simmer down with this nonsense. It's been 3 games and you're talking about Victor demanding out because of Pops ego? :lol Pop won't even be Victors coach for the majority of his career and by the time of his second contract it will probably be his successor. This is much ado about nothing

[Spurs Homer]

glad it is gameday... this analysis paralysis goes on all off-season and is tiring and pointless...

[MultiTroll]

I'm not going to defend Pop's coaching too much, because I've had problems with how loose it's become for years now. But it's hard to "run things for Wemby" if Wemby doesn't feel like he can be pigeon-holed into a guy who "has things run for him". In order for actions to open things up for Victor, he has to do his part in those actions. That means he can't be running around calling for the ball all the time.
Hearing everything you said.
However, what i've seen too often so far is not Wama wanting to be a ballhog, rather the offense strategy being so LAME and majority of the time other Spurs not getting him the ball -even with something so simple like an entry pass or lob- that when Wama does get a touch he's saying to himself "F it, i better take a shot even if it's not the best shot because these clowns and coach Strategy Bird Brain are not gonna get me the ball again."

Not healthy. Not what any of us want to see.
But i see problem as major loser strategy vs Wama being a Kobme ball hog.

Wemby very happy to pass in right cimcumstances IMO. And an excellent passer.

[JeffDuncan]

The problem with experimenting is that if you don't clearly make things resolve around Wemby to where he has a clear path of growth and doesn't look like a bust out there, we are gonna have a disgruntled guy... You can experiment while also making an offense that revolves around him... Or at the very least heavily incorporates him where teammates actually pass him the ball


You’re taking it for granted that a team which went 22-60 has players who are good passers. By NBA standards these Spurs are lousy passers. Their timing is bad, their accuracy is bad, and basically, in general, they suck. Wemby needs teammates who have the fundamental basketball skill to pass the ball to him as required.

Specific examples are all over the place for anybody who cares to look. I looked at a few examples to mention here, but screw that, it’s depressing.

And then Pop gets the bright idea to play a guy at point guard who doesn’t have the slightest semblance of a point guard’s passing ability. Yeah, that’ll help. Har har.

People think it’s about wanting to pass to Wemby. Rather, it’s much more about having the skill to make the pass.

Wemby is always the focus of an opponent’s defense. Of course. That means that passing the ball to him requires good timing and high accuracy. But if this roster had hot shot passers they wouldn’t have gone 22-60.

Wemby knows he’s on a bad team. Duh. That’s how the Spurs got him, by being bad. He is trusting the Spurs to make the necessary improvements. So are we all. One has to hope that the trust is not misplaced.

[BacktoBasics]

I'm not going to defend Pop's coaching too much, because I've had problems with how loose it's become for years now. But it's hard to "run things for Wemby" if Wemby doesn't feel like he can be pigeon-holed into a guy who "has things run for him". In order for actions to open things up for Victor, he has to do his part in those actions. That means he can't be running around calling for the ball all the time. That means when he gets the ball in an unideal situation, he should look to pass it out to get some action going rather than trying to go one-on-one. I get some fans really like the idea of throwing him the ball all the time and making everything go through him. But he's not that guy right now. He's not an NBA-level scorer, especially not to an elite extent. I'd much rather them limit him to playing to his strengths so those can get established, then use those established strengths to both open opportunities for him to show other things and for his teammates to get good shots. Right now, Victor getting the ball anywhere other than right at the rim really isn't scary for opposing defenses, and with three-second calls combined with Wemby's inability to hold a seal, he can't consistently get to the paint enough to worry defenses.

I have a lot of questions around how Wemby would be the number 1 offensive option. He’s definitely a cornerstone player but it’s not out of the question that we’d benefit from a true volume scorer and let Vassell and Wemby work themselves around that.

[MultiTroll]

Some of y'all need to simmer down with this nonsense. It's been 3 games and you're talking about Victor demanding out because of Pops ego? :lol Pop won't even be Victors coach for the majority of his career and by the time of his second contract it will probably be his successor. This is much ado about nothing
To the contrary:
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/bryn-forbes-and-patty-mills-of-the-san-antonio-spurs-talk-against-the-picture-id901301050


We have seen Pop stick with an obviously bad decision for multiple seasons...
Yes. Yes we have.

[MultiTroll]

I have a lot of questions around how Wemby would be the number 1 offensive option. He’s definitely a cornerstone player but it’s not out of the question that we’d benefit from a true volume scorer and let Vassell and Wemby work themselves around that.
Absolutely.

We don't want someone chucking Wama the ball then all 4 others standing around. 4 Dumb is not the answer.
Beautiful Game was / is.

[Chinook]

Hearing everything you said.
However, what i've seen too often so far is not Wama wanting to be a ballhog, rather the offense strategy being so LAME and majority of the time other Spurs not getting him the ball -even with something so simple like an entry pass or lob- that when Wama does get a touch he's saying to himself "F it, i better take a shot even if it's not the best shot because these clowns and coach Strategy Bird Brain are not gonna get me the ball again."

Not healthy. Not what any of us want to see.
But i see problem as major loser strategy vs Wama being a Kobme ball hog.

Wemby very happy to pass in right cimcumstances IMO. And an excellent passer.

You have it in your head that Wemby is the most important player on the team. I get that and don't disagree. The issue is that guys like Johnson and Vassell have been told that they were the most important players on the team too. They had guys traded to give them room to grow. They aren't going to look at Vic in dubious position and themselves in dubious position and think to pass him the ball. They're going to fall back on their conditioning to "take charge" and try to make something happen. I don't think there are huge issues with throwing the entry pass. I've noticed more that there are issues creating a good passing lane and securing the catch. A posting player is supposed to get in position, seal his man and present a clear target. The single-most important aspect to post-entries is spacing. You need a clear lane to throw the pass, and the Spurs are struggling to get that for reasons I've talked about before:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdo5fdEiAyE&ab_channel=MattWoodcock

The Spurs don't have anything like this right now. It's not easy to find videos of the failed post-up attempts, but in my memory, Wemby is usually calling for the ball when there are guys in the passing lane, maybe under the assumption that the Spurs should be throwing really high passes, so he could technically be considered open. But what's the likely result of that play? Wemby bringing the ball down in traffic and getting it knocked away? Him getting bumped off position and the ball going into the stands? Him getting the ball and dribbling into trouble? Or him getting the ball and getting off a contested jumper? Why are those better outcomes than just having someone else shoot the ball?

I agree the Spurs offense is basically the prisoners dilemma where trust can break down if players call their own number too often. Wemby would likely take better-quality shots if he got more touches. The issue is that he's also responsible for his touches and if he's using times when he's not open but still thinks he is to justify taking bad shots when he does have the ball, then that's not the other players' faults. It's the system's fault for not getting guys enough quality looks and maybe to some extent the fault of everyone (including Wemby) to execute the system so that those looks can actually be created.

[MultiTroll]

You’re taking it for granted that a team which went 22-60 has players who are good passers. By NBA standards these Spurs are lousy passers. Their timing is bad, their accuracy is bad, and basically, in general, they suck. Wemby needs teammates who have the fundamental basketball skill to pass the ball to him as required.

Wemby knows he’s on a bad team. Duh. That’s how the Spurs got him, by being bad. He is trusting the Spurs to make the necessary improvements. So are we all. One has to hope that the trust is not misplaced.
Rack it.

Slight disagreement in being that these guys could learn how to pass if it was emphasized by coach and staff, film sessions, on court practice etec. It hasn't been. We'll see moving forward.

[Pauleta14]

There isn't any adjustments or coaching that will change anything as long as Wemby will be the main focus of his opponents more than from his own teamates.

No veteran to teach him NBA life and triks, no all star to draw attention off of him, no play maker capable of passing the ball... SURREAL

It's on Pop and the FO's egos

[Leetonidas]

To the contrary:
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/bryn-forbes-and-patty-mills-of-the-san-antonio-spurs-talk-against-the-picture-id901301050


Yes. Yes we have.

Forms has really nothing to do with what I said though:lol

[EricB]

Is that Pop has this thing about him where he doubles down on his bad decisions because his ego won't allow him to acknowledge someone else's criticism was correct... He still wants to seem like a basketball genius, and that there's some hidden thing that no one else can see, but will eventually see...

So I fear that if the media constantly talks about how Sohan isn't a PG, and that Wemby needs to play more and have an offense that is centered around him, Pop will double down on forcing Sohan as PG, and running a glorified pick up game at the expense of Wemby's development and joy for playing with the Spurs...

Make no mistake... Wemby is competitive and DEFINITELY wants to win ROY... and if he feels like everything is working against him here, he is gonna be OUT as soon as he gets the chance... All because of Pop's ego



Jesus Christ

[Kawhi Duncan]

I'm not going to defend Pop's coaching too much, because I've had problems with how loose it's become for years now. But it's hard to "run things for Wemby" if Wemby doesn't feel like he can be pigeon-holed into a guy who "has things run for him". In order for actions to open things up for Victor, he has to do his part in those actions. That means he can't be running around calling for the ball all the time. That means when he gets the ball in an unideal situation, he should look to pass it out to get some action going rather than trying to go one-on-one. I get some fans really like the idea of throwing him the ball all the time and making everything go through him. But he's not that guy right now. He's not an NBA-level scorer, especially not to an elite extent. I'd much rather them limit him to playing to his strengths so those can get established, then use those established strengths to both open opportunities for him to show other things and for his teammates to get good shots. Right now, Victor getting the ball anywhere other than right at the rim really isn't scary for opposing defenses, and with three-second calls combined with Wemby's inability to hold a seal, he can't consistently get to the paint enough to worry defenses.

U are honestly watching our offense and saying they're making an attempt to structure an offense around him and he is going rogue? They're playing pick up ball! They clearly don't have any schemes where he is the focus... Even seasoned NBA analysts have seen it and talked about it

[Kawhi Duncan]

You’re taking it for granted that a team which went 22-60 has players who are good passers. By NBA standards these Spurs are lousy passers. Their timing is bad, their accuracy is bad, and basically, in general, they suck. Wemby needs teammates who have the fundamental basketball skill to pass the ball to him as required.

Specific examples are all over the place for anybody who cares to look. I looked at a few examples to mention here, but screw that, it’s depressing.

And then Pop gets the bright idea to play a guy at point guard who doesn’t have the slightest semblance of a point guard’s passing ability. Yeah, that’ll help. Har har.

People think it’s about wanting to pass to Wemby. Rather, it’s much more about having the skill to make the pass.

Wemby is always the focus of an opponent’s defense. Of course. That means that passing the ball to him requires good timing and high accuracy. But if this roster had hot shot passers they wouldn’t have gone 22-60.

Wemby knows he’s on a bad team. Duh. That’s how the Spurs got him, by being bad. He is trusting the Spurs to make the necessary improvements. So are we all. One has to hope that the trust is not misplaced.

Tre Jones is by every measure one of the best passes in the league... Dude stays in the top 10 of assist/turnover ratio, and the offense looks significantly smoother when he is playing... Combine that with the fact that Wemby has a significantly higher plus mines playing with Tre

[Kawhi Duncan]

Absolutely.

We don't want someone chucking Wama the ball then all 4 others standing around. 4 Dumb is not the answer.
Beautiful Game was / is.

The warriors play the beautiful game, but the offense is centered around curry... I swear ppl on this board doelnt understand simple basketball concepts

[Kawhi Duncan]

You have it in your head that Wemby is the most important player on the team. I get that and don't disagree. The issue is that guys like Johnson and Vassell have been told that they were the most important players on the team too. They had guys traded to give them room to grow. They aren't going to look at Vic in dubious position and themselves in dubious position and think to pass him the ball. They're going to fall back on their conditioning to "take charge" and try to make something happen. I don't think there are huge issues with throwing the entry pass. I've noticed more that there are issues creating a good passing lane and securing the catch. A posting player is supposed to get in position, seal his man and present a clear target. The single-most important aspect to post-entries is spacing. You need a clear lane to throw the pass, and the Spurs are struggling to get that for reasons I've talked about before:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdo5fdEiAyE&ab_channel=MattWoodcock

The Spurs don't have anything like this right now. It's not easy to find videos of the failed post-up attempts, but in my memory, Wemby is usually calling for the ball when there are guys in the passing lane, maybe under the assumption that the Spurs should be throwing really high passes, so he could technically be considered open. But what's the likely result of that play? Wemby bringing the ball down in traffic and getting it knocked away? Him getting bumped off position and the ball going into the stands? Him getting the ball and dribbling into trouble? Or him getting the ball and getting off a contested jumper? Why are those better outcomes than just having someone else shoot the ball?

I agree the Spurs offense is basically the prisoners dilemma where trust can break down if players call their own number too often. Wemby would likely take better-quality shots if he got more touches. The issue is that he's also responsible for his touches and if he's using times when he's not open but still thinks he is to justify taking bad shots when he does have the ball, then that's not the other players' faults. It's the system's fault for not getting guys enough quality looks and maybe to some extent the fault of everyone (including Wemby) to execute the system so that those looks can actually be created.

So why does Tre Jones not have any issues ever passing Wemby the ball?

[MultiTroll]

The warriors play the beautiful game, but the offense is centered around curry... I swear ppl on this board doelnt understand simple basketball concepts
You don't have to have a Curry level chucker to play the Beautiful Game.
A YMCA team could play the bg, just not with the level of success.

+ Golden State is heavily reliant on illegal screens not being called. Do NOT confuse them with the 2014 Spurs, who would wipe their asses 4-1 with fair refs.

[JeffDuncan]

Tre Jones is by every measure one of the best passes in the league... Dude stays in the top 10 of assist/turnover ratio, and the offense looks significantly smoother when he is playing... Combine that with the fact that Wemby has a significantly higher plus mines playing with Tre


Agreed. Tre stands out. I didn’t mean to imply that every single Spurs player is a hopeless passer.

[JeffDuncan]

You have it in your head… blah blah blah.


Neither anything you wrote, nor anything in that video, is relevant to the Spurs’ inability to get the ball to Wemby when he’s 1-on-1 versus Dillon stinkin’ Brooks.

[Chinook]

So why does Tre Jones not have any issues ever passing Wemby the ball?

Because he's smarter about when he throws the pass? It's not like is throwing all these entry passes to Wemby. The stuff people talking about in transition's a whole different story.

[Chinook]

U are honestly watching our offense and saying they're making an attempt to structure an offense around him and he is going rogue? They're playing pick up ball! They clearly don't have any schemes where he is the focus... Even seasoned NBA analysts have seen it and talked about it

There's a difference between saying the Spurs aren't running good schemes to get him the ball and that the other four guys should have it in their heads to pass him the ball. No, the Spurs aren't running good schemes to get anyone good looks. I've been talking about this forever now. But in what the Spurs are running, the guys aren't getting the ball to him for a number of reasons, and a lot of those aren't about the personality flaws and lack of skill in the other guys on the court. And yes, some of it is the desire to break off plays to get "good" shots. Sean talks about it all the time, that plays are supposed to get guys open and if you see a guy open you should break off the play and give him the ball. That's not bad advice, but it comes with unstated assumptions that may need to be stated sometimes. The "open guy" needs to be in scoring position, and the pass needs to be high percentage enough to forgo a better pass that should come up further into the play. Like if the guys are setting up a PnR and Wemby is at the three-point line calling for the ball, why is passing to him the right move there? It can be, depending on where his man is and the general context of the game. But also a Wemby three isn't really the best offense the team can get right now.

Like we all can talk about times like when Vassell missed a wide-open Wemby on the break during the play that eventually ended with Wemby dunking on Sochan. That's obvious, which also means it's straight-forward to correct. What folks can often ignore are entry passes that result in turnovers because the pass was ill-advised or there wasn't a good target to throw the pass. That ignores how many entry passes wind up like 20 feet away from the basket, which is one of the worst spots on the court for contested jumpers. So yes, you need an offense to get Wemby the ball quickly and in good position, but making that offense work requires commitment by the whole roster, including Wemby. He has to learn how to time is seals and when to call for passes just as much as the other guys have to learn how to space for the entry pass and when in the rhythm of the offense their passing windows come up. I personally would rather their offense run like that for a while even at the expense of times when the defense breaks down prematurely. I think they need to retrain/train their habits to fit in a more organized system before they start free-lancing again. I don't know if Pop is going to try to pull the reins any, whether we're talking about this year or in general.

[Kawhi Duncan]

There's a difference between saying the Spurs aren't running good schemes to get him the ball and that the other four guys should have it in their heads to pass him the ball. No, the Spurs aren't running good schemes to get anyone good looks. I've been talking about this forever now. But in what the Spurs are running, the guys aren't getting the ball to him for a number of reasons, and a lot of those aren't about the personality flaws and lack of skill in the other guys on the court. And yes, some of it is the desire to break off plays to get "good" shots. Sean talks about it all the time, that plays are supposed to get guys open and if you see a guy open you should break off the play and give him the ball. That's not bad advice, but it comes with unstated assumptions that may need to be stated sometimes. The "open guy" needs to be in scoring position, and the pass needs to be high percentage enough to forgo a better pass that should come up further into the play. Like if the guys are setting up a PnR and Wemby is at the three-point line calling for the ball, why is passing to him the right move there? It can be, depending on where his man is and the general context of the game. But also a Wemby three isn't really the best offense the team can get right now.

Like we all can talk about times like when Vassell missed a wide-open Wemby on the break during the play that eventually ended with Wemby dunking on Sochan. That's obvious, which also means it's straight-forward to correct. What folks can often ignore are entry passes that result in turnovers because the pass was ill-advised or there wasn't a good target to throw the pass. That ignores how many entry passes wind up like 20 feet away from the basket, which is one of the worst spots on the court for contested jumpers. So yes, you need an offense to get Wemby the ball quickly and in good position, but making that offense work requires commitment by the whole roster, including Wemby. He has to learn how to time is seals and when to call for passes just as much as the other guys have to learn how to space for the entry pass and when in the rhythm of the offense their passing windows come up. I personally would rather their offense run like that for a while even at the expense of times when the defense breaks down prematurely. I think they need to retrain/train their habits to fit in a more organized system before they start free-lancing again. I don't know if Pop is going to try to pull the reins any, whether we're talking about this year or in general.

And how will Wemby learn that if you don't put him in a position to? You have to actually run schemes and not freelance... And put players around him that can actually pass... Because there are numerous times he DOES do a good job cutting, only to get looked off... Or he runs down the court with a midget in him and no one passes (except Tre)

[MultiTroll]

... Or he runs down the court with a midget in him and no one passes (except Tre)
This is chronic. 3 game sample size or not.
Sean was all over this on the telecast. Wama only needs a lob in his general vicinity when he has a midgit on him. And Wama can run the floor. For a 7 4 dude he runs the floor exceptionally well.

Even on a made shot, a trey by McForbesburger that was an absolute lookoff of Wama who had broke ahead and was alone nearing the rim.
McForbes made the shot. IDGAF it was the wrong shot selection.

[dbestpro]

I still see the defense as a bigger issue than the offense.

[Frenchfred]

If the Spurs could stop the other team from getting offensive rebounds and cutting on TO they could turn the game into something more defensive while trying to figure out their offense.

I like Wemby but right now he is not boxing out in defense and has a hard time to get in position in offense so he is playing on the perimeter where it is not as physical, the problem is that he is a bad three point shooter.

[SayTown]

Is that Pop has this thing about him where he doubles down on his bad decisions because his ego won't allow him to acknowledge someone else's criticism was correct... He still wants to seem like a basketball genius, and that there's some hidden thing that no one else can see, but will eventually see...

So I fear that if the media constantly talks about how Sohan isn't a PG, and that Wemby needs to play more and have an offense that is centered around him, Pop will double down on forcing Sohan as PG, and running a glorified pick up game at the expense of Wemby's development and joy for playing with the Spurs...

Make no mistake... Wemby is competitive and DEFINITELY wants to win ROY... and if he feels like everything is working against him here, he is gonna be OUT as soon as he gets the chance... All because of Pop's ego

Spurstalk isn't the media, although maybe after games Pop pours a glass of wine or two and reads spurstalk for hours to see what special insight and criticisms all us geniuses here have.

[MultiTroll]

Spurstalk isn't the media, although maybe after games Pop pours a glass of wine or two and reads spurstalk for hours to see what special insight and criticisms all us geniuses here have.
No one comes up with 152 straight games of this, you can count on that for sure cupcake.
Cue the Real Men of Genius Bud ad voice:
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/bryn-forbes-and-patty-mills-of-the-san-antonio-spurs-talk-against-the-picture-id901301050

[Russo21]

TBH Pops should do whatever he can to make Wemby happy and put him in the position to succeed. Pops basically has tenure but he is nearly 80 years old and Wemby is 19 and hopefully has 15 years as a Spur. Pops is not going to be Wembys career long coach unless he coaches while he has dementia and is on his death bed. He should stop being such a stubborn wise ass or Wemby may eventually play his all time great potential unicorn card to management and have Pops packing his bags so the stubborn old fool better play his cards right. If I was management and a 19 year old generational unicorn talent had a problem with a nearly 80 year old declining coach I know exactly who management would have packing his bags.

Addit: I don't see Wemby's number 2 or even Wemby's number 3 on this roster for a team competing for a championship so we need to do whatever we can to get those guys hopefully through the draft if we end up in the lottery this year or a high pick the year after and hopefully trading Keldon and Sochan cause I just don't rate them and don't see their fit. Management should be listening to any offer that comes across the table or be proactive in seeking help for this team. Hopefully we suffer this year while Wemby grows and we can nail a top 6 draft pick next year.

[playbonner15]

What people really don't want to think about is how much the issues could be Victor's team and Pop clashing. Wemby isn't Duncan. He's not an island kid with a semi-paternal relationship with his coach which allows him to trust the coaching he gets. Victor was already a corporation long before he was drafted. He has people who want things from him. He has his own idea of where he wants his game to go. The Spurs are a means to get there. They might be his only NBA team if things go well, but he will leave if he doesn't think he's in the best position to succeed. 100 percent Wemby would ask for a trade. Not this year, but early in that second contract. I think Pop's also trying to make Wemby happy by giving him opportunities that he (Pop) probably knows aren't really good for him. Wemby wants to be KD, and even though he should be closer to Dirk, Pop's gonna give him that chance and hope he can use Wemby's struggles to encourage growth in the right direction. This is what dealing with high picks actually means, and it's probably time for the Spurs to get used to it if their plan is to get another such pick next summer. While Kawhi was worse than average, his situation isn't that far off how it is to deal with NBA stars.
Basically Victor's team vs Spurs FO plans not aligning. We'll see but I agree, he and his team might probably ask out for a better situation they think is best for Vic

[exstatic]

The thing isyou can’t really tell a 19 YO anything. You have show them, and the way to do that is to let him freelance, and occasionally faceplant. That’s the reason for the mulligan season. Next summer, they can take him into the film room, and go over what worked, and what didn’t. There will also be learning by the Spurs. He might be able to do more than they would have planned for.

[MultiTroll]

^^^

:lmao Zero accountability for Popped.
Instead putting it all on 19 year old Wama?

Magatards and Poptards have many similarities.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Every fan base thinks their ideas are better than the coaches. This fanbase is just more amusing when they do it.

[SayTown]

Is Pop worried about Wemby getting hurt or is Wemby's stamina still not up to NBA standards? Pop keeps pulling him around the 6 minute mark and then putting him back around the 2 minute mark and he's only getting around 25 minutes a game. Pop is acting like one these old people that buys a Corvette or Porsche and never even goes 10 miles over the speed limit.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Spurstalk isn't the media, although maybe after games Pop pours a glass of wine or two and reads spurstalk for hours to see what special insight and criticisms all us geniuses here have.

There's media members that have said this... That's why I brought up the media

[DAF86]

What people really don't want to think about is how much the issues could be Victor's team and Pop clashing. Wemby isn't Duncan. He's not an island kid with a semi-paternal relationship with his coach which allows him to trust the coaching he gets. Victor was already a corporation long before he was drafted. He has people who want things from him. He has his own idea of where he wants his game to go. The Spurs are a means to get there. They might be his only NBA team if things go well, but he will leave if he doesn't think he's in the best position to succeed. 100 percent Wemby would ask for a trade. Not this year, but early in that second contract. I think Pop's also trying to make Wemby happy by giving him opportunities that he (Pop) probably knows aren't really good for him. Wemby wants to be KD, and even though he should be closer to Dirk, Pop's gonna give him that chance and hope he can use Wemby's struggles to encourage growth in the right direction. This is what dealing with high picks actually means, and it's probably time for the Spurs to get used to it if their plan is to get another such pick next summer. While Kawhi was worse than average, his situation isn't that far off how it is to deal with NBA stars.

That makes no sense to me. Why would Wemby accept playing more as a traditional center in France for an unknown coach than in the NBA for, arguably, the greatest coach of all-time?

[DAF86]

Is Pop worried about Wemby getting hurt or is Wemby's stamina still not up to NBA standards? Pop keeps pulling him around the 6 minute mark and then putting him back around the 2 minute mark and he's only getting around 25 minutes a game. Pop is acting like one these old people that buys a Corvette or Porsche and never even goes 10 miles over the speed limit.

Just Pop overthinking things. If there was ever a time to be playing Wemby big minutes is now, when he's still a kid and doesn't even know what getting tired means.

I'm obviously not advocating for running Wemby into the ground, but there no reason why he shouldn't be playing 32+ minutes every night.

[SayTown]

No one comes up with 152 straight games of this, you can count on that for sure cupcake.
Cue the Real Men of Genius Bud ad voice:
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/bryn-forbes-and-patty-mills-of-the-san-antonio-spurs-talk-against-the-picture-id901301050

I'm no Popsucker I still get shudders when I think about Matt Bonner subbing in during the playoffs and Patty was a man of culture while Bryn had the photos from after the xmas party.

[MultiTroll]

I'm no Popsucker I still get shudders when I think about Matt Bonner subbing in during the playoffs and Patty was a man of culture while Bryn had the photos from after the xmas party.
Exactly.
The precedent is there.

Just .jpg dog praying someone in ownership and management is keeping an eye on strategy and development. But from what I've seen so far the current assistant coaches are just more ass kissing Yes Men and Pop will continue unchecked dictator. Becky bit her lip because cmon, gay women being given a groundbreaking lead or #2 assistant coaching position. She prolly felf she had to. Look at her now. I still remember that look that Timmy Dunks and she gave each other in what appreared to be looking at Poppeds starting lineup card and shaking their heads.

Great win last night tho. And i myself like how Pop played Wamas minutes last night.
For all his greatness he is still a twig.