Grades: Spurs @ Suns - Nov. 2, 2023

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-suns-grades-5/





https://i.imgur.com/BwK88Et.png

[BillMc]

I'll go out on a limb here and say Victor has a chance to be in the top 3 French players in Spurs history.

[spursparker9]

:lol Somehow Spurs always fuck the Sons. Nice game!

[intlspurshk]

Spurs should find some games to lost to draft the second star

[heyheymymy]

Any injury update on Devin Vassell yet

[r0drig0lac]

we need a "Wemby MVP watch" thread because he'll probably be in the race at some point.

[Proxy]

those lobs to Wemby where he's catching on the move and in traffic scare the shit out of me tbh, my eyes always go to where his feet are landing

[jesterbobman]

Best Sochan has looked. He's still not a PG and he hasn't had 10 years of development making reads off the bounce, but being able to muscle in and take advantage of smaller defenders, and rolling in to attack the basket using his size was useful.

I think the appropriate reaction to Wemby was just laughing while watching. Absolutely dominant. Give him the Steven Adams screen package, for the lols.

[MI21]

Sochan is going to be an unreal piece next to Wemby in a few years time - these reps on the ball will pay dividends and I don't think the saying PG thing will ruin him like other players before him, when he shares the court with Tre he has looked great in a more traditional role.

[Dejounte]

Sochan, like last year, is showing incredible improvement every few games. In game 1, he didnt handle the ball nearly as good as he’s handling it now. Also, what people fail to see in why he starts is his pace. He’s not too fast and he’s not too slow— that’s the kind of pace you want at the beginning of the game to avoid tiring out your MVP.

[Gervin44Silas13]

Groin Injury


Any injury update on Devin Vassell yet

[Gervin44Silas13]

It didn't look like Wemby scored 38 points....he's gonna have silent but deadly nights....love that he is clutch at the end of games hitting buckets in close games

[LongtimeSpursFan]

we need a "Wemby MVP watch" thread because he'll probably be in the race at some point.

I tried to get an ‘MVP’ chant while Wemby was shooting free throws at the Houston game. Yeah, I know it’s early but he’s damn special.

[Mr. Body]

Suns' role-players were titanic last game, especially Grayson Allen, Eubanks, and Watanabe. They were quiet last night. I expected a revenge game but that requires a team identity they don't have at this point.

The Spurs will miss Devin's scoring; he was able to ignite the team right away. The games they've struggled so far, they've not had that initial blast. In the preseason, they were jumping on teams in the first halves and it's great to see that again.

Still a work in progress. I don't want to get too up or down. The next games are against teams that aren't quite as exalted, but there will be mixed results. Obviously thrilling to see all the tools we have to work with so far.

[cutewizard]

Incredilbe performance by the Spurs

[sananspursfan21]

It didn't look like Wemby scored 38 points....he's gonna have silent but deadly nights....love that he is clutch at the end of games hitting buckets in close games

Except for his fourth quarter barrage, he kinda just scored steady and those first 28 points crept up

[sananspursfan21]

Great win! I think every honest fan knew the huge lead wouldn’t last. Durant and Booker were missing a lot of shots they normally swish. But our guys, especially Wemby, showed some serious fortitude. Tied at 116, in Phoenix, they’ve got all the momentum, Durant looks like he’s got em right where he wants em…and Wemby just takes over, gets to his spot and obliterates. 5th official NBA game folks and he’s already doing this… :wow

[Davidicus]

The alien has landed on earth and stepped out of his spaceship!

Over 82 games we’ll have good games like this where everyone is on fire, and shit games against bottom tier teams. What impresses me though is how quickly the guys are learning. Wemby went from a scared deer on the 3pt line to a monster down low, partnering with Collins, in 4 games. Sochan is making steady upwards progress. Tre Bassey Cedi are coming up clutch. Keldon is committed to growing his defensive game.

It feels like every game they correct 1-3 mistakes I saw from the previous game.

I’m hoping with Vassell out it gives Branham some breathing room to get out of his funk and become the instant bucket we all know he can be.

Onwards!

[thiste]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-suns-grades-5/





https://i.imgur.com/BwK88Et.png

I think you need to create an all new grade for performances like last night. A+ just doesn't cut it honestly :lol

[thiste]

Any injury update on Devin Vassell yet

Pop said it's probably going to be a long time before we see Devin again...

[tbdog]

Sochan was the unsung hero tonight. His D was impressive considering he was marking Booker and Durant, while in foul trouble. Then only one TO on the other end? You can see why he could be one of the more important pieces in a playoff series. Heck he was trashing Booker too.

[John B]

Thanks Timvp for the grades. Spot on. But I’d give McD at least a B. I don’t blame him for the Spurs losing the lead. It was expected that the Suns would rally back. It was actually McD hitting some timely shots that kept the Spurs from totally losing the game.

Agree on Pop letting Wemby play more. I thought in the previous games Pop was careful to let Wemby get overwhelmed by the pressures around Wemby, and deflected by letting his teammates taking more shots. ST posters of course overreacted. “Pass the ball to Wemby!” But tonight, Pop let Wemby go. Release the Kraken :lol. Wemby was asking the ball, getting in positions. He was not to be denied. In 5 games we saw Wemby from a rookie studying the game, to the student showing what he learned. Pop was testing waters in the previous games, then slowly letting Wemby go. And Wemby dominated. He was the best player on the court, better than KD. The kid has some cold blood on his veins. Wemby not only wanted to win, he wanted to outplay KD in the process. He tried a shot over KD, and put him on his highlight reel, maybe as payback for KD shooting over him the previous game. Too bad that shot missed. But several times Wemby got the best of him and KD was showing frustrations. That was fun :lol.

Too bad Vassell got hurt. He is the 2nd best player in this team, and was the 1st option when he was on the court. I wish him to get back soon. But his absence allowed Pop to play Tre with the starters when it mattered most. And Tre did not disappoint with a double-double, including 10 assists, and showing pesky defense. Sure Booker backed him up several times on their rally back, that’s when Sochan took the defense back, and Booker wasn’t dominating no more. They were exchanging trash talks, Booker and Sochan, and we saw Booker throwing trash on Jeremy that’s probably not fit for young audience. But it was funny his face quieted when Spurs got control of the game. Booker is one of those, like Klay, who likes to bark when up. That was satisfying when Spurs shut him up. Again it’s bad that Vassell could be out, but it could be a silver lining to insert Tre in the starting line up, or at least play him more with the starters (I know Pop likes to keep with his rotation and insert a 3rd stringer instead, but let’s see). Sochan was getting better at PG, but I want to see him more as a point forward, allowing Tre to set-up Wemby more. I think Sochan has gotten so much better with this PG experiment and it’s worth every minute of it.

All in all. It was a very sarisfying game with the young squad showing maturity. Great stuff.

[Bill_Brasky]

We're kinda starting to figure out that lobbing the ball up to Wemby when he has midgets guarding him in the post is a really great idea. Would like us to find him more in transition, but tbh he gets so much attention that it leads to other guys being able to get easy lay ins.

[tbdog]

Pop said it's probably going to be a long time before we see Devin again...

Yeah groin injuries are like weeks. Hammies are longer for those sneaky strains. Thing about groin and hammy strains is that you feel like you can go 100%, until you try.

[PhantomDashCam]

That first half was spectacular. Everybody made a concerted effort to make the extra pass, help Defense was improved and Wemby is an incredible gift.

I would have to think they’d start Cedi or Doug for as long as Devs out.

[LkrFan]

This dude gets an A+ from me:
1720316032861245759

I don't like the Sons, and neither does he. :lol

[TDomination]

We're kinda starting to figure out that lobbing the ball up to Wemby when he has midgets guarding him in the post is a really great idea. Would like us to find him more in transition, but tbh he gets so much attention that it leads to other guys being able to get easy lay ins.

this was bugging me the MOST of the previous games. How hard is it to lob high to him to where only he can get it. He towers over EVERYONE.
but in the grand scheme of things, understanding how to use wemby after 5 games is not that long.

and its only going to get better!

[Mugen]

This is the Sochan we expected. Love when Jeremy has a great game tbh.

[Mugen]

The bit about the Suns being aware of Wemby when he was within 15ft is so apt tbh. You could truly sense that he was like a boogeyman on defense and the Suns attacked differently when he was in the vicinity. It's f'n crazy :lol

[Bill_Brasky]

The bit about the Suns being aware of Wemby when he was within 15ft is so apt tbh. You could truly sense that he was like a boogeyman on defense and the Suns attacked differently when he was in the vicinity. It's f'n crazy :lol

You can see it in every game. Offensively hes gonna ebb and flow. But defensively, any time Wembanyama is out there people are scared to take it to the rim. They have to alter their shot so drastically to get it by him. Were gonna see people blowing lots of otherwise routine easy layups due to his presence.

[Mugen]

You can see it in every game. Offensively hes gonna ebb and flow. But defensively, any time Wembanyama is out there people are scared to take it to the rim. They have to alter their shot so drastically to get it by him. Were gonna see people blowing lots of otherwise routine easy layups due to his presence.

His defensive awareness also looks so much improved from Game 1 > Game 5. Like he still looks a little bit lost out there at times but you can tell his comfort level on that end is pretty night and day from SL > Preseason > Game 5. It's nuts, the kid is nuts. :lol

[CGD]

This dude gets an A+ from me:
1720316032861245759

I don't like the Sons, and neither does he. :lol

Hilarious. Would be better is the “rest” is that rejection Sochan had on Book at the end.

[lefty]

https://www.spurstalk.com/2023-spurs-suns-grades-5/


:lol excellent use of that image


https://i.imgur.com/BwK88Et.png

[lefty]

I'll go out on a limb here and say Victor has a chance to be in the top 3 French players in Spurs history.
https://i.imgur.com/ic0ZMVx.gif

[JPB]

Sochan is going to be an unreal piece next to Wemby in a few years time - these reps on the ball will pay dividends and I don't think the saying PG thing will ruin him like other players before him, when he shares the court with Tre he has looked great in a more traditional role.


Sochan, like last year, is showing incredible improvement every few games. In game 1, he didnt handle the ball nearly as good as he’s handling it now. Also, what people fail to see in why he starts is his pace. He’s not too fast and he’s not too slow— that’s the kind of pace you want at the beginning of the game to avoid tiring out your MVP.

Spurs are still better with Tre at the helm, resson why he finished the game here again last night. It's not about being OK but being good and Sochan had a couple nice plays, for Wembh notably, but he's still not a PG. He looked a bit happier tho. I uncerstand Pop put it there to keep him in the SL but I do'nt beleive it's a long term solution... Spurs should stillg oa after a starting PG, assuming Tre doesn't take leaps and become that man..

Funny how Victor sent a little message after the first suns game about not being fed properly and they make a conscious effort to feed him a lot in the second game... 38 points.

[Raven]

tbf it was sochan that was getting in booker's face the whole game :lol

[Russ]

One of the most impressive things is that Wemby is better the second time he sees a team. That's huge.

They don't figure him out the more they see of him, he figures them out more. It shouldn't happen that way.

It's like a rookie pitcher who doesn't get hit harder the second time through the lineup, he does the opposite of what you expect -- he strikes more out even after they've seen him once.

It also speaks well of the coaching staff. The three days in Phoenix was like a mini playoff series -- the coaches could game plan and adjust based upon the first game and see immediate results. That young team absorbed it all like veterans in just a couple of days. If it was a series, the Spurs turned the corner in Game 2.

All of the above bodes well for the Spurs as the season progresses.

[John B]

This dude gets an A+ from me:
1720316032861245759

I don't like the Sons, and neither does he. :lol

Sure I like his face better when Spurs took control and it was an imminent defeat.

[Spursfanfromafar]

One of the most impressive things is that Wemby is better the second time he sees a team. That's huge.

They don't figure him out the more they see of him, he figures them out more. It shouldn't happen that way.

It's like a rookie pitcher who doesn't get hit harder the second time through the lineup, he does the opposite of what you expect -- he strikes more out even after they've seen him once.

It also speaks well of the coaching staff. The three days in Phoenix was like a mini playoff series -- the coaches could game plan and adjust based upon the first game and see immediate results. That young team absorbed it all like veterans in just a couple of days. If it was a series, the Spurs turned the corner in Game 2.

All of the above bodes well for the Spurs as the season progresses.

Good points. I also thought his teammates started figuring out his strengths better. Only Tre seemed to have a measure of how to involve Wemby's special abilities, but Sochan, Branham, Keldon and Collins are also utilising Wemby much better game by game.

The Clippers game and the first Suns game .. there were so many spacing issues, but the second game.. this was addressed far better by good movement, efficient screen setting and also very good decision making on transition (the cross court passes by Tre, Sochan etc were really good). The fact that Vassell, Wemby, Collins and even Tre hit their threes so consistently helped too.

It will be a challenge when their shot is not falling and when they have to face more experienced and set defenses. But this will only make them learn better and hone their skills and their chemistry even more. Its a win-win even if the Spurs' core loses games. I am now beginning to understand and imbibe what PATFO is doing with Wemby much better.

[polandprzem]

Wemby doubling his performance and still gets the same grade :lol

Absolutely legit :tu


Both Suns games showed that te Spurs kinda can click and players knows better where to be on the court. Also being more aggressive and playing faster pace with better decision making can make Spurs fans to smile.

Vitor played refreshed tbh and was what to be expected. Competed more then in previous games and had less turnovers. Pretty nice. Add his line and %. Impressive.

Still other teams will have to figure out reach of Wemby. Some actions Victor made them think twice and you cant do that on basketball court.. I wonder how he is gonna play vs likes of Jokic who plays game of inches. Always seems like he is taking advantage of those. But with Victor gonna be interesting for sure.


Hopefully Spurs will continue to get better cause that was a good game.

[polandprzem]

Also winning b2b with the same team is not and easy task in NBA

[Dex]

Just like that, Wemby is averaging 20 and 8 on this early season

[Dex]

Also winning b2b with the same team is not and easy task in NBA

On their floor, no less

[TrainOfThought5]

It didn't look like Wemby scored 38 points....he's gonna have silent but deadly nights....love that he is clutch at the end of games hitting buckets in close games


he shot so many technical free throws.

[TimD]

1. Diaw
2 Parker
3. King Joff




4. Wemby

[R. DeMurre]

Reddit's very entertaining this morning-- one guy said that Wemby near the basket looks like a guy putting socks in a hamper, and another joked that we'll soon see a Trust Fall reverse dunk from the free throw line from him. Good stuff.

[TrainOfThought5]

https://i.imgur.com/ic0ZMVx.gif

Classic! That goddamn Enrique

[onechance87]

much better game from collins....this is why hes starting

[R. DeMurre]

Wemby is going to create generational wealth in the next decade for a host of average 7' players out there who otherwise might have gone to Europe or China to play. He breaks the model of multiple switchable defenders in the 6'7"-6'9" range that so many teams have used in the recent past. Most every team will have an extra giant at the end of their bench now to deal with Wemby, just as teams did in the early 2000s to deal with Shaq.

[Proxy]

the offense was way smoother looking, gg to Sochan for that block too, and Collins hitting some 3s, good shit

[baseline bum]

No one expects Wemby to be Tim Duncan at 19. And yet yesterday he was. The team was just dead in the water, tie game from up 27 with Booker on fire and Durant hitting threes like he's in shootaround. And then Victor comes back in the game and gets 10 of the next 12 points and boom, game over.

[Manu20]

No one expects Wemby to be Tim Duncan at 19. And yet yesterday he was. The team was just dead in the water, tie game from up 27 with Booker on fire and Durant hitting threes like he's in shootaround. And then Victor comes back in the game and gets 10 of the next 12 points and boom, game over.

And on hostile territory with the crowd going crazy no less. Left me stun TBH.

[TrainOfThought5]

No one expects Wemby to be Tim Duncan at 19. And yet yesterday he was. The team was just dead in the water, tie game from up 27 with Booker on fire and Durant hitting threes like he's in shootaround. And then Victor comes back in the game and gets 10 of the next 12 points and boom, game over.

And with no Devin Vassell for backup.

[buttsR4rebounding]

What is Booker saying?

[LeBowen]

I'm still more impressed by how much of a defensive presence he is.
He should easily break the record for most DPOY awards, it's just absurd how many solid actions that get the ball into the paint just get cancelled as soon as the player attacking the rim sees Victor.
When he gets stronger in a season or two and starts playing C full-time (imo, it's inevitable) noone except for MVP level bigs will be able to stay on the floor against him.
Lineups with Victor at C are already winning us games and noone knows what they're doing.
I was honestly just laughing my ass off last night, the league is completely fucked.

[barakz21]

https://i.imgur.com/ic0ZMVx.gif

No matter how it’s used, I’ll never not have a laugh any time I see this gif. And I love TP as much as I do Tim and Manu.

[RC_Drunkford]

:lol @ all the cliffjumpers who thought we were gonna tank this season. We are contenders by next season, have the youngest roster in the NBA and the 2nd most draft picks. Ideal scenario is the Toronto picks hits in the 6-10 range and and we can trade for a disgruntled star. Like I said when we got the #1 pick, the Spurs have the chance to build the most dominating roster ever.

[spurs10]

I'll go out on a limb here and say Victor has a chance to be in the top 3 French players in Spurs history. :bobo Bobo says 'bravo salut'

[The Truth #6]

Spurs are still better with Tre at the helm, resson why he finished the game here again last night. It's not about being OK but being good and Sochan had a couple nice plays, for Wembh notably, but he's still not a PG. He looked a bit happier tho. I uncerstand Pop put it there to keep him in the SL but I do'nt beleive it's a long term solution... Spurs should stillg oa after a starting PG, assuming Tre doesn't take leaps and become that man..

Funny how Victor sent a little message after the first suns game about not being fed properly and they make a conscious effort to feed him a lot in the second game... 38 points.

Coach Pop is handling it pretty well. He's letting Jeremy get the needed reps which I do think are actually helping him. And Jones can finish the games cuz he's better right now and we are trying to win. So I don't really see a problem with doing a little bit of both, in fact, I think it's sort of the perfect approach.

Right now neither Jeremy or Tre are starters at PG for a title team. These are the players we have right now. Jeremy has the higher ceiling. I do think he's figuring things out. Not developing him now to me would be crazy. We don't know what the long-term solution is because we still don't know what the actual problem is.

Jeremy is a chill but sort of cold blooded dude that this team needs.

Pop very well may find an actual point guard in the off season but we aren't there yet. Let's see where this goes. With Wemby we don't need a savant point guard. Jeremy's defensive potential is amazing and really opens up mismatches.

[JPB]

Coach Pop is handling it pretty well. He's letting Jeremy get the needed reps which I do think are actually helping him. And Jones can finish the games cuz he's better right now and we are trying to win. So I don't really see a problem with doing a little bit of both, in fact, I think it's sort of the perfect approach.

Right now neither Jeremy or Tre are starters at PG for a title team. These are the players we have right now. Jeremy has the higher ceiling. I do think he's figuring things out. Not developing him now to me would be crazy. We don't know what the long-term solution is because we still don't know what the actual problem is.

Jeremy is a chill but sort of cold blooded dude that this team needs.

Pop very well may find an actual point guard in the off season but we aren't there yet. Let's see where this goes. With Wemby we don't need a savant point guard. Jeremy's defensive potential is amazing and really opens up mismatches.

In a vaccum what you're saying may be true but I'm not sure we have the luxury to put a PF at the point for the sake of developing his playmaking skills, if you consider he's not a long term solution there. You can still play him as point forward... Winning validates everything but you stillhave to give it some context... Most of our wins are improbable, "lose this most of the time" wins... The HOU and first PHO wins could as well have been losses and our defense is still middle to bottom of the West (even if you remove the Clips blow out loss, which you shouldn't since it's still an NBA game you played, don't get blown out). End of story, spurs could be 1-4 and the analysis about sochan at PG would be different. Teams will adapt to those spurs, independently of Wemby, and the difference with Tre as PG is significant enough that I'm not sure, if Pop is serious about winning, that you can afford that Sochan experimentation that long.

[The Truth #6]

In a vaccum what you're saying may be true but I'm not sure we have the luxury to put a PF at the point for the sake of developing his playmaking skills, if you consider he's not a long term solution there. You can still play him as point forward... Winning validates everything but you stillhave to give it some context... Most of our wins are improbable, "lose this most of the time" wins... The HOU and first PHO wins could as well have been losses and our defense is still bottom of the league (even if you remove the Clips blow out loss, which you shouldn't since it's still an NBA game you played, don't get blown out). End of story, spurs could be 1-4 and the analysis about sochan at PG would be different. Teams will adapt to those spurs, independently of Wemby, and the difference with Tre as PG significant enough that I'm not sure, if Pop is serious about winning, that you can afford that Sochan experimentation that long. I'm wondering if you see this on a different timeline than I do. You seem to be saying that Jeremy is not the point guard of the future, but we are not in the future yet, we're still in this first season with Victor where the coach has clearly stated that we're going to figure things out this year.

Sure, things can change. Goals can change. But for right now, Jeremy and Jones are our two point guards and both are playing. Jeremy had a good game last game even if we lost, so I don't see the reason to panic right now. In fact, I like how they are developing Jeremy while finishing the games with Jones. To me, that is a win-win for this season. In the off season then will have more information of what kind of point guard we need based on what we learned from this season.

[scott]

Jeremy Sochan

It was a little bit of a strange night for Sochan. I thought his court vision was inexplicably poor; he missed five or six passes he needed to make. But, hey, you look at the final box score and Sochan had nine assists and only one turnover. He also took advantage of mismatches well by getting into the lane in order to utilize his size and athleticism. I also loved Sochan’s defense. This was without question his best defensive game of the year. If he had done a better job of finding open teammates, Sochan would have had a monster outing. As it was, he was still very impactful.
Grade: A-
Sorry, but I am here to be "that guy". Did Jeremy have his best game of the season? Yes, easily. But does having inexplicably poor court vision (missing 5 or 6 passes he needed to make) translate to an A-? His opposing FG% last night was 57.1% (8-14) (source (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?PerMode=Totals&DateFrom=11%2F02%2F2023&DateTo=11%2F02%2F2023)). What's so great about this defensive performance? When the Suns made their run, some of it was from some bad decisions from Jeremy. If not for Wemby's heroics I think we'd be talking more about those. While we can all acknowledge that +/- is an imperfect statistic, once again, Jeremy finds himself on the bottom of the stat sheet for that metric.

I think our expectations should be a little higher than to be that impressed with his game yesterday.

[JPB]

I'm wondering if you see this on a different timeline than I do. You seem to be saying that Jeremy is not the point guard of the future, but we are not in the future yet, we're still in this first season with Victor where the coach has clearly stated that we're going to figure things out this year.

Sure, things can change. Goals can change. But for right now, Jeremy and Jones are our two point guards and both are playing. Jeremy had a good game last game even if we lost, so I don't see the reason to panic right now. In fact, I like how they are developing Jeremy while finishing the games with Jones. To me, that is a win-win for this season. In the off season then will have more information of what kind of point guard we need based on what we learned from this season.

I do understand the timeline, I just don't understand the point if Jeremy is not playing PG next season and if that's not where he'll play most his career, which he definitely won't... I have seen enough to know that, however Sochan will progress in that role, and he necessarily will, he's not, and will never be, a natural PG, and will never be good enough to play at that position in a team with any ambition in this league... You can't teach PG instincts and skills.

Wouldn't it better to keep on developing a the post he'll play most of his career? he's still a sophomore. And I mean that's litterally why he showed playmaking skills at PF that they they're trying him at PG... Let him play Point forward.

I also understand that's a way to keep him in the SL if you play Victor as a PF and Keldon as SF, but as far as playmaking is concerned you could as well let Sochan in his natural postion to develop them... I do'nt see the point if next year spurs are like: "Ok, thanks Jeremy we have a real PG now, so you get back to PF/SF for the rest of you career"... then you lost one year of development at his natural postion he got to get used to again.

[RC_Drunkford]

Sorry, but I am here to be "that guy". Did Jeremy have his best game of the season? Yes, easily. But does having inexplicably poor court vision (missing 5 or 6 passes he needed to make) translate to an A-? His opposing FG% last night was 57.1% (8-14) (source (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?PerMode=Totals&DateFrom=11%2F02%2F2023&DateTo=11%2F02%2F2023)). What's so great about this defensive performance? When the Suns made their run, some of it was from some bad decisions from Jeremy. If not for Wemby's heroics I think we'd be talking more about those. While we can all acknowledge that +/- is an imperfect statistic, once again, Jeremy finds himself on the bottom of the stat sheet for that metric.

I think our expectations should be a little higher than to be that impressed with his game yesterday.

KD had Sochan's hand in his face at almost every shot he let go, there's nothing more that you can do than contest and make it as tough as possible. He didn't shut him down, but he didn't give him anything easy

[scott]

Cedi and Doug had some critical shots yesterday, especially Doug helping to hold back the onslaught of the Suns run, so I was surprised to see them so long in the +/-. However, then I looked at some two-man lineup stats and saw this (these are our worst two-man lineups putting in more than 5 minutes yesterday:



Lineup
Min
Off Rtg
Def Rtg
Net Rtg


Doug-Cedi
7
61.5
180.0
-118.5


Doug-Keldon
5
58.3
153.8
-95.5


Cedi-Jeremy
12
96.0
170.8
-74.8


Doug-Bran
5
72.7
145.5
-72.7


Doug-Jeremy
9
88.9
160.0
-71.1


Cedi-Collins
13
114.3
174.1
-59.8



Two man lineup stats have a lot of other exogenous variables to consider (like, the other 3 guys on the court), but you can see that Doug and Cedi are certainly correlated with some rough defensive play when they are on the court.

[JPB]

KD had Sochan's hand in his face at almost every shot he let go, there's nothing more that you can do than contest and make it as tough as possible. He didn't shut him down, but he didn't give him anything easy

KD was 10/15 yesterday (67%).

[scott]

KD had Sochan's hand in his face at almost every shot he let go, there's nothing more that you can do than contest and make it as tough as possible. He didn't shut him down, but he didn't give him anything easy

Yeah, sometimes players just make tough shots - so that's understandable. But we are seeing a trend through 5 games that Sochan ranks very high in contests on opponents shots, but is also giving up a very poor opposing FG%. The begs this question that will be worth watching as the season progresses and we get a greater sample size: Are guys just hitting tough shots and variance will eventually come in and we'll see Sochan's opposing FG% fall, or are Sochan's contests just not effective?

We will have to stay tuned to find out.

[Seventyniner]

:lol @ all the cliffjumpers who thought we were gonna tank this season. We are contenders by next season, have the youngest roster in the NBA and the 2nd most draft picks. Ideal scenario is the Toronto picks hits in the 6-10 range and and we can trade for a disgruntled star. Like I said when we got the #1 pick, the Spurs have the chance to build the most dominating roster ever.

If Wemby blows up this soon, the Spurs can start packaging these extra picks and accelerate the timeline before they have to actually make those picks.

[scott]

And definitely there needs to be recognition that much of Sochan's opposing FG% is coming against Luka, Jalen Green, Nephew and KD. Certainly that is worth mentioning.

Unfortunately I can't find opponent FG% stats for Bruce Bowen to compare against. At some point it would make sense that your "stopper" gives up a higher than average Opp FG% since they are going against the opponent's best players.

[PrimeMinister]

Sorry, but I am here to be "that guy". Did Jeremy have his best game of the season? Yes, easily. But does having inexplicably poor court vision (missing 5 or 6 passes he needed to make) translate to an A-? His opposing FG% last night was 57.1% (8-14) (source (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall?PerMode=Totals&DateFrom=11%2F02%2F2023&DateTo=11%2F02%2F2023)). What's so great about this defensive performance? When the Suns made their run, some of it was from some bad decisions from Jeremy. If not for Wemby's heroics I think we'd be talking more about those. While we can all acknowledge that +/- is an imperfect statistic, once again, Jeremy finds himself on the bottom of the stat sheet for that metric.

I think our expectations should be a little higher than to be that impressed with his game yesterday.

when your match ups are devin booker and kevin durant you take 8-14 every day of the week

[The Truth #6]

I mean, they see Jeremy is a big part of their team, and I do too, so playing him on the bench seems less useful to me. I'm not convinced he can't be the point guard of the future. And even if he isn't the point guard of the future next year, I still think the experience will be very good for him.

To me it's basically a choice of:

We play Jones big minutes at point guard and then have to use our assets to get a different point guard in the off season.

Or, we give Jeremy a chance and see if it works out. And if it does, then we don't have to use a lot of our draft capital on drafting a point guard and we can use it for something else.

To me, that's why the timeline is so important and why there's no reason to rush right now, or fix people in tight roles when it's not clear what their role is yet. I mean, it's not like Jeremy is a stereotypical power forward anyway.

[scott]

when your match ups are devin booker and kevin durant you take 8-14 every day of the week

Devin Booker best shooting year (last season) was .494

KD did shoot .560 last season, which is insane considering the types of shots he takes

I don't consider giving up 57% FG% some gargantuan defensive feat.

"I held him to his season average!" doesn't mean you put in an all-star performance.

[BillMc]

:bobo Bobo says 'bravo salut'

:clap I mean he has a shot at pushing out Nando to hang with Boris and Tony.

[EricB]

If Wemby blows up this soon, the Spurs can start packaging these extra picks and accelerate the timeline before they have to actually make those picks.


100%

[EricB]

Sochan was terrific on defense last night what? ��

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sochan is improving. Have fun with the hand wringing though.

[rascal]

Wemby is carrying the team. He's coming up big in the 4th in all their wins. The Spurs would be 0-5 without Wemby.

[heyheymymy]

1. Diaw
2 Parker
3. King Joff




4. Wemby

Nando De Culo was basically the mayor of San Antonio for a while there

[RC_Drunkford]

If Wemby blows up this soon, the Spurs can start packaging these extra picks and accelerate the timeline before they have to actually make those picks.

I think it's pretty clear that we need upgrades at starting PG and starting C. Spurs should try to keep all of Wemby, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon (yea I said it), Branham and get an upgrade at these 2 positions. Then get some veteran stars on the decline who want to ring chase to build a dominant bench unit. They should try to trade their own picks, so if one of these unprotected ATL picks hits, we can add lottery talent to a championship roster and boom: Another dynasty

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Cedi and Doug had some critical shots yesterday, especially Doug helping to hold back the onslaught of the Suns run, so I was surprised to see them so long in the +/-. However, then I looked at some two-man lineup stats and saw this (these are our worst two-man lineups putting in more than 5 minutes yesterday:



Lineup
Min
Off Rtg
Def Rtg
Net Rtg


Doug-Cedi
7
61.5
180.0
-118.5


Doug-Keldon
5
58.3
153.8
-95.5


Cedi-Jeremy
12
96.0
170.8
-74.8


Doug-Bran
5
72.7
145.5
-72.7


Doug-Jeremy
9
88.9
160.0
-71.1


Cedi-Collins
13
114.3
174.1
-59.8



Two man lineup stats have a lot of other exogenous variables to consider (like, the other 3 guys on the court), but you can see that Doug and Cedi are certainly correlated with some rough defensive play when they are on the court.
it's impossible to evaluate player's 1 on 1 defense by relying on tables
to do this, you need to watch the actual games and understand what is happening on the court
not given to everyone

[John B]

Also winning b2b with the same team is not and easy task in NBA

With KD staring down and Booker erupting at 4th, Victor took the challenge and overcame. That was some crazy shit.

And I like that Sochan somewhat neutralized Booker when he was abusing Tre. Sochan went to his face and put a clamp on that. That was some shit. Many here were dissing on Sochan acting weird lately. The guy was just focused trying to play better.

[Dejounte]

I mean, they see Jeremy is a big part of their team, and I do too, so playing him on the bench seems less useful to me. I'm not convinced he can't be the point guard of the future. And even if he isn't the point guard of the future next year, I still think the experience will be very good for him.

To me it's basically a choice of:

We play Jones big minutes at point guard and then have to use our assets to get a different point guard in the off season.

Or, we give Jeremy a chance and see if it works out. And if it does, then we don't have to use a lot of our draft capital on drafting a point guard and we can use it for something else.

To me, that's why the timeline is so important and why there's no reason to rush right now, or fix people in tight roles when it's not clear what their role is yet. I mean, it's not like Jeremy is a stereotypical power forward anyway.

Jeremy at PG in his first year playing it looks better than Dejounte at PG in both his first and second year. I’ve watched both and Jeremy has shown real point guard instincts especially these last two games. He’s learning and displaying it, even if others refuse to see it.

[Marcus Bryant]

5 games in and am trying to temper expectations

[baseline bum]

5 games in and am trying to temper expectations

Yeah man same here. But how do you not go nuts when Wemby is carrying the team like 26 year-old Tim Duncan in fourth quarters? I keep trying to tell myself it's just five games and just early season and he's 19 years old but the excitement in the city is almost like 1999 right now.

[slick'81]

Rip drew ewwwbanks

[Atl Spur]

Great to see everyone happy and cautiously optimistic :) We a foundational piece once again!!!

[Chinook]

And definitely there needs to be recognition that much of Sochan's opposing FG% is coming against Luka, Jalen Green, Nephew and KD. Certainly that is worth mentioning.

Unfortunately I can't find opponent FG% stats for Bruce Bowen to compare against. At some point it would make sense that your "stopper" gives up a higher than average Opp FG% since they are going against the opponent's best players.

Bowen's playoff stats weren't good. He basically didn't stop anybody. His masterpiece was probably James in 07, but he was basically playing the same role Keldon did against KD, with Tim playing the Wemby role. There are stats that bear Bowen out as a plus defender. However, many more prominent metrics have him as less impactful defender. That's a far cry from Green and Kawhi who could absolutely decimate opposing perimeter scorers. The Medium Three Spurs could absolutely crater opposing offenses, and even just having WingStop, LMA and Gasol was devastating. Spurs fans that came into their own during the Bowen era probably value what Sochan is doing more than those of us who really started paying attention to the game during the end of the Duncan era. We know perimeter defenders can actually have a statistical impact on even the best opposing scorers, but we probably don't appreciate enough what defenders can do to the other guys that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.

[Obstructed_View]

Bowen's playoff stats weren't good. He basically didn't stop anybody. His masterpiece was probably James in 07, but he was basically playing the same role Keldon did against KD, with Tim playing the Wemby role. There are stats that bear Bowen out as a plus defender. However, many more prominent metrics have him as less impactful defender. That's a far cry from Green and Kawhi who could absolutely decimate opposing perimeter scorers. The Medium Three Spurs could absolutely crater opposing offenses, and even just having WingStop, LMA and Gasol was devastating. Spurs fans that came into their own during the Bowen era probably value what Sochan is doing more than those of us who really started paying attention to the game during the end of the Duncan era. We know perimeter defenders can actually have a statistical impact on even the best opposing scorers, but we probably don't appreciate enough what defenders can do to the other guys that doesn't show up in the stat sheet.
Teams just happened to not be able to score points when they played the Spurs. Bowen was lucky.

[KobesAchilles]

Jeremy at PG in his first year playing it looks better than Dejounte at PG in both his first and second year. I’ve watched both and Jeremy has shown real point guard instincts especially these last two games. He’s learning and displaying it, even if others refuse to see it.
I like the double down :lol
Why admit that you’re wrong the first time when you can double down and be wrong the second time too. Nice troll job.

Even if he is “showing real point guard instincts,” and “better than DJ in his first and second year.” Who gives a fuck. DJ was garbage and took 5 years to finally be decent. Like top 15 decent. I’m supposed to wait 5 years for Jeremy to take that leap? What a load of garbage. It’s ok guys. We can contend in 2028. That’s our timeline. Sure we have a guy who is already top 10 in the league. We gotta wait 5 years for Sochan. Never change Spurstalk

[RC_Drunkford]

I don't know what people expected. This team was never as bad as the media tried to make it. And adding Wemby and Osman while individually improving over the summer only made them better. They clearly a play-in team with the chance to make the 6th seed. Just imagine how they gon look in march

[Dejounte]

I like the double down :lol
Why admit that you’re wrong the first time when you can double down and be wrong the second time too. Nice troll job.

Even if he is “showing real point guard instincts,” and “better than DJ in his first and second year.” Who gives a fuck. DJ was garbage and took 5 years to finally be decent. Like top 15 decent. I’m supposed to wait 5 years for Jeremy to take that leap? What a load of garbage. It’s ok guys. We can contend in 2028. That’s our timeline. Sure we have a guy who is already top 10 in the league. We gotta wait 5 years for Sochan. Never change Spurstalk

I haven’t been “wrong”, it’s only proven wrong for people who have a 3-game attention span. The fact that he is ahead of the curve is the exact point I’m trying to make that somehow you’ve ignored and went off babbling again because you have the patience of a 4 year old.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

I like the double down :lol
Why admit that you’re wrong the first time when you can double down and be wrong the second time too. Nice troll job.

Even if he is “showing real point guard instincts,” and “better than DJ in his first and second year.” Who gives a fuck. DJ was garbage and took 5 years to finally be decent. Like top 15 decent. I’m supposed to wait 5 years for Jeremy to take that leap? What a load of garbage. It’s ok guys. We can contend in 2028. That’s our timeline. Sure we have a guy who is already top 10 in the league. We gotta wait 5 years for Sochan. Never change Spurstalk
you can organize a rally near the stadium

[Chinook]

Teams just happened to not be able to score points when they played the Spurs. Bowen was lucky.

This is you being mad for no reason. A person asked if Bowen had a good DFG%, and I answer that he didn't, even relative to the guys he was playing. As I said, most stats that people go to don't have Bruce as impactful, but some (like RAPM) do have him up there. Green and Kawhi did actually drag their guy's efficiency down. There's a good chance that was because there were two of them. There was a constant barrage of one or the other, switching didn't help the other team (especially because Manu was a good defender and Parker was fine). They had someone to guard the "pressure release" so the main guy wasn't getting help that way. They had two very good defensive bigs to take care of drives. So there are reasons. But just like the 04 Spurs were the most superlative defensive team in Spurs' history with Bowen and Prime Tim, the 2016 Spurs with Old Tim and Wingstop was the second-most superlative defense. Out of the top-10 Spurs defenses, Bowen was on five of them. Tim was on nine of them, with only the 17 Spurs not having Duncan.

So yeah, Tim is a defensive GOAT candidate, and was the main driver of the Spurs having a dominant defense. Bowen among others was a key in that too, I'm sure. But it's stats like that that support the idea that he was a great defender rather than the point we were talking about, which is guys scoring on you. Holding your guy to 8/14 can be a good night, if that's mixed in with turnovers and passed up shots. We can't tell that by that number alone -- someone would have to chart the game and collect that data. But it can be a bad night if guys got those shots with ease, got fouled on other attempts, if a lot of those were threes or if there were possessions where guys Sochan was guarding found others for easy assists or beat him so badly that another player was forced to switch and got scored on instead.

[JPB]

Jeremy at PG in his first year playing it looks better than Dejounte at PG in both his first and second year. I’ve watched both and Jeremy has shown real point guard instincts especially these last two games. He’s learning and displaying it, even if others refuse to see it.

I like sochan and he may get better at it but will never be a starting PG in a contending team. He won't spend his career there; and I wouln't be surprised if Pop stops the experience during the season... The team is better with Tre at the point, that's eye popping, and Tre isn't himself a starting PG. You can see the way Sochan is playing the point that his instincts are those of an interior guy, he's not a slasher and can't really drive, and most of his points are backing up his opponent or cutting... The game is slower with him at PG because he's not reading fast enough or anticipating the play. He doesn't have the feel for that and you can"t teach it. The game is accelarating with Tre who is systematically looking for Victor.

End of story we need a hig caliber starting PG and Sochan probably won't be that man next season, so I'm not sure about the pertinence of developing him here if he's not even a middle term option. Could be that Pop wasn't trusting Tre but I believe jones showed enough improvement that he deserves a shot at starting. Just put Vic at the 5 and Sochan at the 4 depending on opponents or put Sochan at the 3 and make Keldon your 6th man. The way things are going, Vic is gonna take a lot of place on offense with Devin behind, so not sure there would be enough room for Keldon and he could be better off of the bench.

1. Tre, Devin, Keldon, Jeremy, Victor
2. Tre, Devin, Jeremy, Victor, Zach.

[tonight...you]

This is you being mad for no reason. A person asked if Bowen had a good DFG%, and I answer that he didn't, even relative to the guys he was playing. As I said, most stats that people go to don't have Bruce as impactful, but some (like RAPM) do have him up there. Green and Kawhi did actually drag their guy's efficiency down. There's a good chance that was because there were two of them. There was a constant barrage of one or the other, switching didn't help the other team (especially because Manu was a good defender and Parker was fine). They had someone to guard the "pressure release" so the main guy wasn't getting help that way. They had two very good defensive bigs to take care of drives. So there are reasons. But just like the 04 Spurs were the most superlative defensive team in Spurs' history with Bowen and Prime Tim, the 2016 Spurs with Old Tim and Wingstop was the second-most superlative defense. Out of the top-10 Spurs defenses, Bowen was on five of them. Tim was on nine of them, with only the 17 Spurs not having Duncan.

So yeah, Tim is a defensive GOAT candidate, and was the main driver of the Spurs having a dominant defense. Bowen among others was a key in that too, I'm sure. But it's stats like that that support the idea that he was a great defender rather than the point we were talking about, which is guys scoring on you. Holding your guy to 8/14 can be a good night, if that's mixed in with turnovers and passed up shots. We can't tell that by that number alone -- someone would have to chart the game and collect that data. But it can be a bad night if guys got those shots with ease, got fouled on other attempts, if a lot of those were threes or if there were possessions where guys Sochan was guarding found others for easy assists or beat him so badly that another player was forced to switch and got scored on instead.
Thank you.

[EricB]

I don't know what people expected. This team was never as bad as the media tried to make it. And adding Wemby and Osman while individually improving over the summer only made them better. They clearly a play-in team with the chance to make the 6th seed. Just imagine how they gon look in march


100% agree. this team when it wasn't even complete would routinely play teams tight until pop would pull the rip chord and quit the fourth quarter

[EricB]

oh so now Bowen wasn't a good individual defender? lol I've seen it all...

[tonight...you]

oh so now Bowen wasn't a good individual defender? lol I've seen it all...
He was just saying statistically the numbers weren't great like what's happening to Sochan while he's playing good D, but still getting shots on him.

[Dejounte]

I like sochan and he may get better at it but will never be a starting PG in a contending team. He won't spend his career there; and I wouln't be surprised if Pop stops the experience during the season... The team is better with Tre at the point, that's eye popping, and Tre isn't himself a starting PG. You can see the way Sochan is playing the point that his instincts are those of an interior guy, he's not a slasher and can't really drive, and most of his points are backing up his opponent or cutting... The game is slower with him at PG because he's not reading fast enough or anticipating the play. He doesn't have the feel for that and you can"t teach it. The game is accelarating with Tre who is systematically looking for Victor.

End of story we need a hig caliber starting PG and Sochan probably won't be that man next season, so I'm not sure about the pertinence of developing him here if he's not even a middle term option. Could be that Pop wasn't trusting Tre but I believe jones showed enough improvement that he deserves a shot at starting. Just put Vic at the 5 and Sochan at the 4 depending on opponents or put Sochan at the 3 and make Keldon your 6th man. The way things are going, Vic is gonna take a lot of place on offense with Devin behind, so not sure there would be enough room for Keldon and he could be better off of the bench.

1. Tre, Devin, Keldon, Jeremy, Victor
2. Tre, Devin, Jeremy, Victor, Zach.

I’m sorry, man. I can’t take anyone seriously when they speak in absolutes. “Will never be”… “end of story”… You sound like someone who thinks they’ve never been wrong in their life and that’s either because you’re young or stubborn or both. If people who are paid professionally gets these kinds of things wrong, what makes you think your opinion (yes, I said opinion) should be more convincing than theirs or anyone else’s on this board? Like, I have strong feelings about some things but I’ll never say I’m right with absolute certainty.

and I don’t want anyone to misinterpret my post— people are free to express their differing opinion but it’s just annoying as hell when people pretend something is set in stone.

[jehawk81]

Yeah man same here. But how do you not go nuts when Wemby is carrying the team like 26 year-old Tim Duncan in fourth quarters? I keep trying to tell myself it's just five games and just early season and he's 19 years old but the excitement in the city is almost like 1999 right now.

Man, I haven't been to San Antonio in a good minute. Is there really a buzz/excitement in the air there?

[Mr. Body]

It's hard to purely take stats alone for good defenders. A scorer like Kobe or Jordan or LeBron isn't going to be stopped. They're going to get their points and they may do it at a high percentage, but:

- are they forced out of their sets
- are they running down the clock and into short situations
- are they forced to socre in isolation
- are they using a lot of energy to get their scores

These don't always read in the stats but really impact the games, especially in multi-game series. It's about forcing work, attrition, disconnecting the star from the role-players. Role-players often win games if stars are about even. If you're carving the star into isolated space then it's a massive win.

[baseline bum]

Man, I haven't been to San Antonio in a good minute. Is there really a buzz/excitement in the air there?

The city has just been insanely excited since winning that lottery.

[JPB]

I’m sorry, man. I can’t take anyone seriously when they speak in absolutes. “Will never be”… “end of story”… You sound like someone who thinks they’ve never been wrong in their life and that’s either because you’re young or stubborn or both. If people who are paid professionally gets these kinds of things wrong, what makes you think your opinion (yes, I said opinion) should be more convincing than theirs or anyone else’s on this board? Like, I have strong feelings about some things but I’ll never say I’m right with absolute certainty.

and I don’t want anyone to misinterpret my post— people are free to express their differing opinion but it’s just annoying as hell when people pretend something is set in stone.

:lol you're taking this way too seriously and first degree. I'm not playing my life here, nor having any kind of impact on spurs future, just throwing your opinions...

And yes, I'm sure Sochan will never be a starting PG on a contending team, just like I'm sure Drew Eubanks will never be MVP...You don't have to be BB genius to see that he's not a natural here and there are things he'll never be able to do... You need a real, natural and dynamic playmaking PG who can shoot, drive and play the pick'n'roll with Victor... Jeremy is slowing the game down and may not even be a starting PG in 2 monts. I just read a long Zach Lowe article about Wemby summing up what everybody is seeing, spurs are better with Tre as PG, and if Tre is progressing too he's not starting material either on a contender, which tells you how far Sochan is...

[Thomas82]

No one expects Wemby to be Tim Duncan at 19. And yet yesterday he was. The team was just dead in the water, tie game from up 27 with Booker on fire and Durant hitting threes like he's in shootaround. And then Victor comes back in the game and gets 10 of the next 12 points and boom, game over.

And with no timeouts left for the last 3rd of the quarter.

[Fizziksman]

hopefully now that the team has seen the power of just chucking up to him even if the play is dead in the water is good strategy.

[KobesAchilles]

you can organize a rally near the stadium

Do you ever have your own opinion? Or is your role here just to say random no substance one liners on the board? I had asked you before to give your own opinion and you side stepped it. It’s ok to state your opinion about the Spurs here on Spurstalk. We don’t bite. No need to feel scared. Cmon say it. Jeremy is the future PG of the Spurs.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Do you ever have your own opinion? Or is your role here just to say random no substance one liners on the board? I had asked you before to give your own opinion and you side stepped it. It’s ok to state your opinion about the Spurs here on Spurstalk. We don’t bite. No need to feel scared. Cmon say it. Jeremy is the future PG of the Spurs.
https://sun9-42.userapi.com/impg/PSYPdBmqC_-zn0qwv2CnraPwDbqsjL08F2LxGA/emBBUGNQddk.jpg?size=976x318&quality=96&sign=81d91e6fa24855798d40975fed285bca&type=album